FLDS Financial and Legal Menu, Fall 2009

The FLDS Church is entering an unprecedented period of legal and financial struggles.    This menu is not complete by any means.

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on September 21, 2009.

162 Responses to “FLDS Financial and Legal Menu, Fall 2009”

  1. Looks like they have a full plate. Any idea of if/when the federal charges will be filed?

  2. No idea, but we know they have the evidence, and they probably didnt list it because there hasnt been a peep from the Feds on it.

    Back Pocket deal?

    I remember one they forgot to mention, Carolyn is suing Merril for Child Support.

    Of course, thats minor compared to any Federal Action, which would pretty much put an end to all the nonsense, give them an old TONY ALAMO experience!

  3. BTW you would think the Feds would connect the dots on all the IRS liens and see the pattern, the FLDS is screwing them and its on purpose.

  4. I don’t understand why there aren’t investigations about the buildings that disappeared. Didn’t the UEP own them and the UEP was already under Wisan then?

  5. I think there were Betty, but NOT by the twin cities police, they knew personally who dismantled them…
    The only investigations done were by Wisan and Gary Engels, which as we all know got no where,because Flds refused to talk to either.

  6. In fact, Marshal Fred Barlow was called the night the builidng were being dismantled, even though he had a COURT ORDER that NOTHING be removed, he did NOTHING>

  7. And Fred Barlow was decertified

  8. Oh Dang they forgot the Theresa Steed baby case too, it has been said that her husband will face Sex Assault charges when the baby is found, she was underage when she became pregnant.

    Make it a Bakers Dirty Dozen in Texas?

  9. Oh

    Add Lloyd Barlow to the Texas list, 3 counts of failure to report child abuse.

    What a nice guy!

    Wonder if he will sue because Texas violated his civil rights to follow his religion which tells him to allow P-hood men to molest children unmolested?

  10. Law Enfarcement at the Crik is what it is. FLDS wants youXXX us gentiles to understand that.

  11. Well Lloyd has charges to face but he can’t complain about being decertified because that hasn’t happened yet. In a way I suppose I’m glad since I would worry that the YFZ inhabitants wouldn’t get any medical care at all without a FLDS doctor.

  12. Rebeckah, he’s not allowed to be on the ranch at all, anywhere near kids.

  13. So there ya go, 500 people without health care.?

  14. Oh, not at all. They’re going into San Angelo and paying for it with MedicAid.

  15. Thats impossible. They claim they arent using public assistance,

    They werent lying were they?

  16. Ya think maybe?

  17. Reckon?

  18. Have Medicaide, will Travel!

  19. PS I guess they arent too worried about Obama’s health care plan – seems they are taken care of already!

    Must be nice, pump out the kids, then suck on society for some gravy!

  20. Well, I can’t say that it attracts ME, as a lifestyle.

  21. Me, either. You lost me at “pump out the kids”. How about if I go on missionary trips and he pumps out the kids?

  22. texasrattle, i think he is on the ranch. i know that one of the conditions of bail for the ones accused of sexual abuse of a child was that they couldn’t be around their victim, but i didn’t hear about it saying they couldn’t be around any child. i’ll have to check into the terms of bail.

  23. Proud Texan

    Do you have a handle on how many “Victims” are required to live off campus? I thought that about 25% of the families were required, by either CPS or bail, to live away from YFZ.

  24. ProudTexan, I believe the doctor is not allowed to be around his OWN kids. He’s been living and working in Round Rock, last I heard. Maybe something changed.

    I’m out of pocket tonight.

  25. I just found something interesting:

    Utah Code 62A-4a-403. Reporting requirements.
    (1) (a) Except as provided in Subsection (2), when any person including persons licensed under Title 58, Chapter 67, Utah Medical Practice Act, or Title 58, Chapter 31b, Nurse Practice Act, has reason to believe that a child has been subjected to abuse or neglect, or who observes a child being subjected to conditions or circumstances which would reasonably result in abuse or neglect, that person shall immediately notify the nearest peace officer, law enforcement agency, or office of the division.
    (b) Upon receipt of the notification described in Subsection (1)(a), the peace officer or law enforcement agency shall immediately notify the nearest office of the division. If an initial report of abuse or neglect is made to the division, the division shall immediately notify the appropriate local law enforcement agency. The division shall, in addition to its own investigation, comply with and lend support to investigations by law enforcement undertaken pursuant to a report made under this section.
    (2) Subject to Subsection (3), the notification requirements of Subsection (1) do not apply to a clergyman or priest, without the consent of the person making the confession, with regard to any confession made to the clergyman or priest in the professional character of the clergyman or priest in the course of discipline enjoined by the church to which the clergyman or priest belongs, if:
    (a) the confession was made directly to the clergyman or priest by the perpetrator; and
    (b) the clergyman or priest is, under canon law or church doctrine or practice, bound to maintain the confidentiality of that confession.
    (3) (a) When a clergyman or priest receives information about abuse or neglect from any source other than confession of the perpetrator, the clergyman or priest is required to give notification on the basis of that information even though the clergyman or priest may have also received a report of abuse or neglect from the confession of the perpetrator.
    (b) Exemption of notification requirements for a clergyman or priest does not exempt a clergyman or priest from any other efforts required by law to prevent further abuse or neglect by the perpetrator.
    *****

    So ANY person in the state of Utah that has reason to believe that a child has been subjected to abuse or neglect, or who observes a child being subjected to conditions or circumstances which would reasonably result in abuse or neglect, that person shall immediately notify the nearest peace officer, law enforcement agency, or office of the division. This would include mother, father, brother, sister, aunt, uncle, NEIGHBOR, grocery store clerk, … ANY person. So that code increases the criminal count of the FLDS members by about 10,000.

  26. So rather than being decertified the officers should have been charged too? I wonder how hard it would be to prove that officers ignored abuse claims and how long the statute of limitations is?

  27. Here is the thing Rebeckah, according to that Utah Code the police officers didn’t even need a claim of abuse, if they themselves had any reason (like seeing their pregnant 14 year old neighbor, going to church and suddenly seeing little 12 year old “Susie” no longer with her mother and father but with her 40 year old husband) to believe a child had been subjected to abuse or neglect or conditions or circumstances which would reasonably result in abuse or neglect then they or ANY other person is REQUIRED by law to make the report. Then as a police officer he would also be REQUIRED by law to investigate the claim.

  28. Flora Jessop reported abuse of girls, and of girls and women missing to Police in short creek… the did NOTHING!!

  29. The Wall sisters ALL reported to Sam Barlow about abuse from their father,,, Sam DID NOTHING!!

  30. Sam Barlow was Chief of police before Fred Barlow! No police officer ever did anything to protect the children except haul mothers off to flagstaff into a Mental institution.

  31. After a while it boils down to who is the bigger adult.

    The Prophet is a wild sex maniac, as are his goons, and the law cant be trusted one bit.

    No secret there! So then it falls on the County, if they cant rectify it, responibility falls on the State, they cant do it, then the Feds.

    Ergo Tony Alamo!

  32. stamp – last i knew sally and her girls and annette and her kids were all still off the ranch and i thought doc barlow’s were too and that was the reason he could be back on the ranch. one of sally’s daughters will be in san angelo in october for raymond’s trial. i’m not sure who else he’s charged about.

    to be truthful, i haven’t heard of any of the ranch residents coming to town for health care, only braces. i see them in the orthodontist’s office from time to time.

  33. veda keate and her mom are off also. forgot to mention them. i’m not really sure they have to stay off since her abuser is in prison in arizona. supposedly the girl who was married underage to allen keate and her son have been taken in by a local couple, but i’ve never seen any documentation about it, only hearsay.

  34. This was brought up some time ago..but, it will be interesting when the 2010 Census comes along just how much Yearning For Zippers…as Stamps laughingly once called it…will participate. And if they do, just how ‘accurately’ they will report their head count. I know there will be people going door to door to take the count[in some states]. Is there a doorbell at the front gate? Ding dong…Cencus calling!! So, is it ONE household with 300 people?? Who is head of the household? Is there a place on the form for that?

  35. you can answer it by mail. i did in 2000.

  36. Oddly enough, I don’t think I’ve ever filled out a census form. I’ve never received one that I remember. Maybe I don’t really exist? lol

  37. Thanks, Proud Texan. I also heard that Barbaric Jessop was living in New Braunfels, near some other large parcels of FLDS property.

    It makes ya wonder – Im not sure she ever was comfy in the FLDS – if you read Carolyns book, she was always gone, and when she did show up, it was like the wicked witch of the east blew in and started beating up on little babies.

  38. Soozie you see it’s a People Ranch and the head of this outfit is a Rancher named Warren S. Jeffs, he’s under conviction & indictment right now and he’s in quarantine for ‘Hoof in mouth’. Do you have any of those 1860 census forms, you know the ones that let you list people as chattel(property)? We had a severe reduction in our herd in 2008, owing to an outbreak in crime enforcement and it really thinned our herd. We have strays spread out across Texas and the Rangers aren’t doing anything, like helping to round them up. We used to keep our herd near Little Cottonwood Canyon in Utah and we didn’t have to worry about becoming a scattered herd.

  39. people ranch. That’s good.

  40. Here’s how FLDS lawyers work:

    If the law is against them, argue the facts.
    If the facts are against them, argue the law.
    If the law and the facts are against them, argue real loud.

  41. lol, cement, that was funny!

  42. and true.

  43. lol @ Cement — Have I mentioned I love your wit? 😀

  44. barbara’s been seen in eldorado, so i’m pretty sure she’s back at the ranch. that would especially be true if naomi and merrianne are living at the ranch now.

  45. ProudTexan, are you sure. According to Duane, our “expert” on all things FLDS, the women don’t leave the ranch anymore. Probably just and evil gentile look alike trying to set Barbara up for something.

    (Yep, that was a dig directed at a certain troll who likes to make baseless claims.) 😀

  46. Maybe they don’t leave the ranch, cause the security cameras are on them and the guys with the night vision goggles.

  47. Yes, ole dog deci duane posts a lot of witless stuff that comes from his own head. Not a shred of truth to it. A classic troll.

  48. well, then there are lots of people in san angelo who have taken to wearing prairie dresses and old fashion hair dos cuz they’re at wal mart all the time.

    tell duane that he needs to hang out at the san angelo wal mart so he can get his facts straight.

  49. ProudTexan, I’m pretty sure it’s a violation of Duane’s First Ammendment rights by suggesting he have “facts” before posting his “facts”. Please be careful. Next thing you know, Hugh McBryde will be calling your boss, or your pastor, or your mother, or possibly God and telling on you.

  50. HAHAHAH Rebeckah 🙂

  51. That Hugh guy is sorta scary!!!!!!!!!

  52. Duane is playing ya’ll for smucks.

    He is baiting, and catching lots of good information.

  53. so what exactly is he gonna do with the information that women in prairie dresses are shopping at wal mart? stake out the wal marts in san angelo to get pictures of them. who cares if duane knows that. i mean what good is it gonna do him? he’s gonna report it to mudpuppy or hugh? again, who cares?

  54. lol, I was wondering just what information Anonymous thought a bunch of people unconnected to this case could possibly be giving. Yeah, Duane’s trying to play us for “shmucks” but it’s only in the same way any troll online does — he likes to get a rise.

  55. the women don’t leave the ranch anymore

    I take all this trash talk about me as compliment.
    I never said that but repeated what someone else reported and that was that FLDS people are not seen on the streets of Eldorado. I don’t live there so I don’t know for sure but it certainly sounds plausible.

    I also posted on the trib that Nancy Mereska-chief Canadian polygamist hater reportedly couldn’t stop crying when she heard the news that the polygamy cases were dropped but ladysadie said I was making stuff up. If you google “Winston Blackmore” and click on “news”, the first hit offers to view all the articles on this subjece, it was quoted in a Canadian article, look for it yourself if you don’t believe me.

  56. I’m sure Nancy Mereska takes your trash talk as a compliment too, Duane. If you call someone a hater it’s a sure sign that they’re are compassionate and caring people, albeit, not for the women and children haters like you and the FLDS.

  57. duane the men of the FLDS sect are seen fairly frequently in Eldorado and no women or children come there or are seen. The children are out of doors even less today than in the past and how they spend their time now must be mostly indoors. Given that the San Angelo GJ indictments will soon come to trial, the presence of the women at the Courts may soon be a common scene. Bishop F. Merril Jessop will be in San Angelo Court next week concerning his failure to pay any child support for his children by Carolyn Jessop, such a upright and fine example of a family man shouldering his responsibilities toward his kindred family, NOT.

    How does a Bishop remain in a leadership role after demonstrating such a irresponsible and despicable treatment of his own family? Is it true that the FLDS Church teaches that the family are at the center of their eternal bliss in the Celestial Heaven? How is it that making this life a living hell with no financial support by the father can be validated? I understand that the FLDS Church congregation claims to just want to be left alone but they have to meet their parental obligations or face legal consequences.

  58. I agreee that that Merrill Jessop is obliged to pay child support but as usual, it is another false concern as Coram sees it as a possible oppoturnity to seize the ranch and run the “infidels” out of Texas, you people no doubt agree with his ambitions.

    Well it sounds like FLDS men are the ones going into town presumably for business and to pickup supplies. They probably fear for their women and children in public amongst hostile “gentiles” and percieve that the flds men would present a “harder” target against some local yahoos who may be so inclined to “have some fun” with “pliggers”. How would anyone know that the children are out of doors even less today as YFZ is private property and no one is allowed on without permission?
    Oh, the low and slow overflights are continuing? That and the Great Pillage of ’08 no doubt explain the current skittishness of the women and children.

  59. They probably fear their women will get on a Greyhound or try to talk to a cop.

  60. Duane, this person sees the loss of the ranch as a perfectly valid response to a man who fathered 8 children with one woman and then steadfastly refused to fulfull his parental duties. Since this man has flat out lied about the financial resources available to him (claiming poverty and then coming up with a huge cash bond in less than a day) and he has apparently been helped with his lies by fellow FLDS members. I don’t want to see women and children suffer, but I don’t think Carolyn and her children should suffer either — and they’ve been left to suffer for a long, long time.

  61. I am amazed at the constant refrain that it is terrible for the women and children of the FLDS to suffer but perfectly acceptable for any who leave the auspices of the church to suffer. Not only are these girls and women rushed into marriage and childbirth before their ability to make rational decisions form, but they are relenlessly punished for making their own choices AFTER those abilities for rational though form. Duane may consider it a fundamental right to set innocent children up for that kind of suffering but I do not.

  62. Rebeckah, too true. After going on about how FLDS women choose their lifestyle, the Patriarchal Pedophile Protectors villify any woman who makes any other choice. If they do that here in public, imagine what happens to these women in private.

  63. The nail that stands up gets hammered.

  64. perfectly acceptable for any who leave the auspices of the church to suffer

    No, like I said if Merrill is obliged to provide child support he should. But again it is mostly a phony concern as many here would see it as a means to seizing the ranch.

    Many ex-flds women have left the sect by their choice with no hard feelings, they decided the lifestyle wasn’t for them and that choice should be respected. There are more than enough rescue ranger groups to assist them, in fact they are in competition for “escapees”. Very few attempt to profit as a professional victim. Carolyn is a particurly successful professional victim and is doing quite well but again if Merrill owes child support he should pay-not everyone else in the FLDS.

    Cement’s stake in this mess is keeping his UEP house in short creek even though he agreed with Stamp that SC was the crappiest place in the country. That is why instead of just leaving the flds for greener pastures and getting on with his life like plyg kid did, he is now attacking his former family and compadres. Why is that, does he fear that the FLDS theology is correct and he may become a “son of perdition” and needs anti-polyg activists to assure him otherwise? Who knows!

    Cement, I assure you that if you keep your UEP house even if the FLDS people manage to get their property back from the state, I guarantee you that within a couple of years, the place will be looking much much better. People tend to take care of property when they own and have control over it.

  65. duane,

    How can the opinions here be a reflection upon Carolyn’s request for child support? What issues should be considered by the judge other than the need of the children, the need of the custodial parent and the ability to pay of the non-custodial parent? Child Support is about THE CHILDREN.

  66. Funny, cement, my karate instructor used to say that all the time just before he hammered me. LOL.

  67. Will you quit acting like I should just get the hell off UEP land?

  68. Things were going downhill long before Bruce had anything to do with the UEP. Could it be that’s why he got involved, and then a huge tissy fit was thrown to sabotage him?

  69. I am staying right here, tending my 15 orchard trees and maintaining the house I have. I am not just walking away and starting over. I can’t afford to do that.

  70. And had I come to my senses before getting married and building a house, I most certainly would have started out elsewhere.

  71. You go Cement!!!!!

  72. Cement, I don’t know what will happen to the UEP but why do you go on here and team up with the anti-polygamist rabble? Yes I’m sure you had good reasons to leave but assuming Warren and a few other are terrible people, do you support the complete destruction of the FLDS people, economic or otherwise? Do you want to see say 300 men imprisoned for bigamy and their families busted up and impovershid. How about Buster Johnson’s plan to keep them barren and let them die out naturally?
    Is that ok with you?
    I’m sure some flds read the vitroil being spewed on this board, it is a possibility that they may get their land back and it seems you are taking a risk by teaming up with Flora and pals.
    These people hate not only Warren, but every single person in the FLDS, they say they don’t but cheer on every effort that will make their children even more impoverished, despite claims about “savin’ the children”, they are doing incredible damage to them flds families.

    Again, it is one thing to say “screw you Warren, I’m outta here”, quite another to persist in attacking and vilifying your former brothers, even if you feel they are misled.

  73. duane,

    Your posts are just too dumb and ugly to even acknowledge sometimes. That’s why I put you on ignore on the trib. You, debator and celtic.

  74. “No, like I said if Merrill is obliged to provide child support he should. But again it is mostly a phony concern as many here would see it as a means to seizing the ranch.”

    Bull. If Merril had done his duty as a father this would be a non-issue and I, for one, would be happy about it. It would mean that Carolyn’s children had not suffered years of deprivation because of their father’s callousness and it would mean that the children on the YFZ wouldn’t have the possiblity of losing their home hanging over their heads.

  75. Maybe you missed the posts where I got after chloemitchell for being too nasty.

  76. Duhduane there is no call for a ‘Final Solution’ against the FLDS except in your mind. Your one sicko to project such filth and blind hatred on people expressing concerns over Law & Order, embezzlement in the UEPTrust and wanting a renegade Theocracy brought to Justice. You blew your chance to meet Flora eyeball-to-eyeball, you blinked, remember? You used to proclaim genocide and then deny the defined meaning is what you meant. You comment above is pretty clear now that you did mean it. You’re whacked! Buster Johnson doesn’t even comment here and typical to you to cross-talk blogs and try to incite arguments.
    Nice try, now run along to Uncle Bill’s blog and report your exaggerated findings and lies.

  77. Since we’re twisting what others say, I’ll twist your comment into “why are you accusing us of wanting to take a nuclear bomb to CC”

  78. “Carolyn is a particurly successful professional victim and is doing quite well”

    Really? I presume you have tax records and bills and whatnot to prove that she’s doing “quite well”?

    “but again if Merrill owes child support he should pay-not everyone else in the FLDS.”

    I would agree if members of the FLDS leaders hadn’t helped Merril to hide assets. At that point they opened up everyone associated with Merril’s assets for scrutiny.

  79. “Again, it is one thing to say “screw you Warren, I’m outta here”, quite another to persist in attacking and vilifying your former brothers, even if you feel they are misled.”

    Cement hasn’t been “attacking and villifying” anyone that I’ve seen. He makes the occasional comment based on his own experiences. I’m sure it irks you no end to have someone calmly state that they didn’t just ADORE the abuse they went through at the hands of your pals the FLDS, but your baseless accusations just reflect on you, not him.

  80. Look Duane, it’s my civic duty to expose bulls__t whenever the comments head a direction that it is appropriate to do so. If that is attacking and trying to destroy the FLDS, so be it.

    Now, why do the FLDS want to destroy me? Answer that one. Why the attempt to break up my family while I was at work. Anyone that would think of doing such a thing is worse than a prostitute. Are you upset that I am blunt at times like the previous sentence. Well, let the truth be blunt! The only reason for wanting to break up a family was I refused to kowtow to Warren. And you say I want to break up their families! Warren has destroyed more children than were involved in the raid. More children don’t know where their father is because of Warren than the raid.

  81. Soooo true–Cement–sooo true–wsj is a creep and cares nothing for “his” people….!!!!!!!!!!

  82. Believe me, it’s hard to undo thinking where you realize that polygamy doesn’t work, and you do the math and realize large families isn’t how to increase population. Many things I have been taught, I have come to see that two plus two doesn’t equal four, and I have posted my findings a few times. Like the religious teaching to have large families in order to populate the earth. I’ve come to realize that’s the quickest way to impoverish a society and reduce population. So, I post my findings as I find my former teachings to not be correct, and I am attacking others?

  83. Don’t I have just as much right to attack their views as they have to call me apostate? Tit for tat, isn’t it?

  84. Cajim, I read those comments by Buster a long time ago and shortly after the raid, stuff like that is what helped shape my opinion about this whole mess.
    I don’t agree with everything about the FLDS and have said as much to pliggy. But it is one thing to have disagreements on some issues, another to attempt to force them to adhere to your own code by brute force. No, Im not talking about underage sex but that could easily be resolved within the flds by making a few tweaks. As it it, the vast majority of “child brides” were barely illegal and in most states they would be of legal age.

    What I’m trying to say to cement is it is probabaly a better idea for him to come to an understanding with his former compadres and perhaps have a dialogue with them or if that is out of question than settle the issues in court instead of joining up with the anti-polygamist rabble.

  85. “Don’t I have just as much right to attack their views as they have to call me apostate? Tit for tat, isn’t it?”

    Yes cement I suppose you are right, are you not an “apostate”, is that term an insult? ARe you still a fundy mormon but not flds?
    Pliggy is in short creek now, pay him a visit and you guys can hash it out over a few beers. Have an arm wrestling contest to determine who is right? LOL!

  86. but that could easily be resolved within the flds by making a few tweaks
    ===========================
    They wouldn’t be in the mess they are in if it weren’t for this. That isn’t just a little “oh, by the way”.

  87. So, 12 is “barely illegal?”

  88. Laws are just that way. You have to set a limit, and say “no more.” Even airlines are this way. If calculations say “we can’t fly fully loaded” and two passengers get bumped on a flight, an airline would fire a pilot that went ahead and flew anyway with just two more people onboard saying “close enough.” Laws are the same way. You have to draw a line somewhere.

  89. Cement, yes they made some mistakes but I’v done the research. The attacks against your people seem to have started in the late 90’s and got really going with a vengeance in the early 2000’s. No doubt the intense pressure made them react in ways that were radical and unwise. Even without the underage business, the rabble would have found a way to take their land and launch child snatching raids as they had already managed to hijack sections of the state apparatus and use it against fundy mormons.

  90. Also, if the underages marriages were “barely illegal”, isn’t it better to nip a problem in the bud than wait until 12 becomes the norm instead of the exception?

  91. No cement, “12” is taking it too far but how many 12 years were married by how many? Should they throw everyone in jail for what Warren did?
    Your wife was of legal age correct? And she was “forced” to marry you by Warren Jeffs, am I right?

  92. Who’s going to jail for something someone else did?

  93. Don’t know what ole duane is high on, but he is frothing at the mouth and drooling out a lot of gibberish. Mayhaps he will sleep it off and be more rational next week.

  94. Cement, some FLDS reps met with Shirtleff in 2002 or so, they told him it wasn’t fair that 16 year olds could get legally consent and marry “old men” if they were monigs, but polygs would be hounded and jailed for doing the exact same thing. In their eyes they couldn’t see a difference other than it being an excuse to attack them.

  95. Cement, the rabble consider all FLDS to be abusers, fraudsters, and all round heinious criminals for nothing other that their status as FLDS. Before you left the FLDS, if one of the rabble approached you in person they would assumed the same thing about you merely becasue of your religious affiliation.

  96. Out of the twelve, in reading the dictations, the one that should be prosecuted the hardest was the one that didn’t get medical help for their wife. This may surprise you, Duane, but I think their religion has caused them *less* persecution for what they do than if they did the same stuff but not in the name of religion. Where else can a person refuse medical help to a girl he impregnated under-aged and *not* face prison time over it?

  97. Betty, this is getting good. Get out your list and start writing. We are all *the rabble*; we want all FLDS destroyed.

  98. Some of the FLDS are just as much “the Rabble” and want all apostate destroyed. Tit for tat.

  99. Cement, these people don’t merely want underage marriages to stop, it is much bigger than that. The FLDS have already given a statement that they will abide by the AOC laws, has the rabble changed their tune. NO, they want blood, they want YFZ taken from them, their land in SC, boycott all flds businesses, refusal to employ them…basically they want to see them completely ruined unless they bow down and renounce their religious beliefs which polygamy is a part of, but underage marriages are not.

  100. “Some of the FLDS are just as much “the Rabble” and want all apostate destroyed”.

    Yeah, I guess they are angry at us. It dosn’t matter, they aren’t launching raids or pogroms against gentiles.

    ” one that should be prosecuted the hardest was the one that didn’t get medical help for their wife.”

    yeah that wasn’t right at all, I didn’t say they were perfect.

    Later

  101. Who is “these people”. Who is advocating not hiring FLDS people? Who want to boycott businesses? Last I knew, it was businesses finding every silly excuse to not serve us. Who wants blood. If there is one thing that scares me, it is that you may be correct there; but the person that will want blood is not me; it will be some 5 year old who suddenly never saw Daddy again. Or the 7 year old who never sees big brother again because big brother had to be sent away.

    As far as YFZ if public money was used for it, it should be chased down, and I believe there was public money used for it.

    As far as refusing to employ them; we were burned where I work by FLDS employees. When someone is left high and dry in the name of religion, it gives others of the same religion a bad name, yet if one applied, I think rather than face discrimination suit, we would let them burn us again.

  102. dumbwayne, who the he** do you think you are, telling a man he should just abandon his home THAT HE BUILT? Who the he** do you think you are to tell a man that has actually lived with the FLDS and come to realize the abuses within? No one has the right to tell cement to leave his home and “just move on” to “greener” pastures, not any warren, not any willie and not any crawford!

  103. “Betty, this is getting good. Get out your list and start writing. We are all *the rabble*; we want all FLDS destroyed.”

    Duane claims the psychic ability to know what people think and feel quite often. And yes, he generalizes shockingly. Apparently he thinks everyone is just like him, and since he hates all of us and wants us destroyed we must want the same for him and his friends.

  104. “Some of the FLDS are just as much “the Rabble” and want all apostate destroyed. Tit for tat.”

    Well yes, Cement, but that’s just because those poor, righteous, holy people have always been so persecuted, doncha know?

  105. “The FLDS have already given a statement that they will abide by the AOC laws, has the rabble changed their tune.”

    WHO with legal or theological authority within the FLDS have given that statement? What was SAID was that the Church would no longer “preside” over those marriages. However, since nearly every man within the FLDS is a “priesthood holder” with the authority (within their beliefs) to marry off his daughter himself, that’s a pretty pointless promise. When you add to that the fact that no one with any authority to make such a decision has indicated the statement is valid, it makes it hot air and nothing more.

  106. Willie only speaks for Willie, and no one else. I only speak for me and not the Rabble.

  107. you go on here and team up with the anti-polygamist rabble

    Hey, I resemble that remark!

  108. Actually, I’m anti-stupidity, anti-religious nuttiness, and anti-abuse.

  109. The Duh-meister’s comments make me hum the Twilight Zone theme song and wonder if I should add Rabble to my email signature …

  110. cement

    I want to say that I really admire you. Our parents condition us from a very early age. We grow up with a biological, psychological and spiritual legacy. You’ve had the strength and courage to really look deep within and question all that conditioning.

    It takes a true man to abandon all that we think is the ground that holds us up and be brave enough to be groundless long enough to find a true base.

    I wish you the best in your search for “truth.”

  111. However, since nearly every man within the FLDS is a “priesthood holder” with the authority (within their beliefs) to marry off his daughter himself,

    ====================
    This was one thing Marion Hammon and Dell Timpson in hot water, and they were high up. I just haven’t figured out how this pecking order, uh, I mean, Priesthood authority, works.

  112. The only truth I ever expect to find is that life is bigger than religion.

  113. That was said in context of religion. Of course, I expect to know laws of physics and other truths. I just think that life is bigger than religion, and that is basically all the religion I care for. I think athiests and agnostics will be pleasantly surprised (assuming they are decent citizens), and religious will find themselves unpleasantly surprised, if they have done things that weren’t right in the name of religion, but I don’t think that either extreme are going to find their eternal destiny for billions upon billions of years is determined by a spec in time and their conduct on this little spec of time. Life is too big for that.

  114. Women and children aren’t seen in El Dorado because Women and Children have never been seen in El Dorado. There is no shopping in El Dorado other than ONE food store, locally owned, and Most People go all the way to San Angelo to shop because the groceries in town are so expensive.
    If you blink your eyes you would MISS the town of El Dorado!
    Until the raid, Women were seen in San Angelo at the local Lowe’s Home Depot or Walmart. Rarely did you ever see a child.
    As far as duane goes, his words are typical of someone who has NOT done any research.
    What right does anyone have to call anyone an apostate. You join a religion, you leave a religion,,, doesn’t mean your apostate.
    The longer duane posts, the more ignorant and useless his posts become.
    Ive NEVER heard anyone who posts here say ,”destroy Flds”, what I have heard is freedom of choice without being shunned by an entire community, have your families taken away, and kicked out of town!
    Mupucky talks about CPS taking children from Flds, bull shit,,, FLDS leadership were continually taking children away from their biological mothers and fathers, and sending the fathers away, and the mothers to institutions.

  115. I understand what you’re saying, Cement, however all that promise is doing is saying the “Church” won’t preside over the marriage, not the Priesthood Holders. So all they have to do to be true to their word and still have their own way (which the FLDS seem historically to have been really big on) is tell James over there to marry his daughter to Sam. Technically the “Church” kept its word and the girl is still, by their standards, married off. I don’t doubt that they’ll work even harder to hide their underage marriages, but I don’t for a moment believe they will stop. It’s so much more effective to get ’em when they’re 13 and saddle them down with 8 children before the frontal lobes develop. By the time they have the wisdom to say, “Wait, just WHAT is in this crazy scheme for me?” they’ve got very little incentive to act on it — unless it’s to kill themselves. (Of course I’m sure that’s a super delux mortal sin that will get you cast into an unpleasant place for eternity in the FLDS religion.

  116. I guess that’s one way to avoid becoming morally impure; don’t marry women with frontal lobes, as you termed it.

    Sorry, sometimes, I just can’t resist.

  117. Cement if you had children with your wife, and you want to see them, I would certainly do whatever it took to be able to see them according to the laws.
    You have a right to see your children, just like a mother has a right to see the children in a divorce.

  118. Duane,
    If I get drunk and drive and crash and do it 10 times and then say I will stop I expect you to believe me…..
    not
    do the crime do the time….so basically no pass on the group for saying no more 12 year old marriages. Keep on watching to see if any more pop up and continue to prosecute…..
    excuse me in your words persecute.

  119. Duane again,
    I don’t want to kill, exterminate, etc., the flds. What I want (notice I refuse to speak for others) is for them to follow the law in all its aspects.

    That being said, I also think that the structure and philosophy of the sect is one that could have been designed by an evil scientist to prove how group dynamics evolve into abusive situations. I have come firmly to the belief that this sect will continue to provide a real broth to culture pedophiles simply because of the extremism of the beliefs – men are gods, women are not, men need lots of women, and they all have to come from the pure blood lines

  120. cement,
    I always enjoy your posts. How did you select your name “cement”?

  121. “Sorry, sometimes, I just can’t resist.”

    hahahahaha!

  122. She stayed with me, thank the bigger than God universe!

  123. “I always enjoy your posts. How did you select your name “cement”?”

    Oooh, ooh! I know!! 😉

    But I’ll let Cement answer for himself. My son is always letting me know about my bad habit of speaking for other people.

  124. cement,
    I always enjoy your posts. How did you select your name “cement”?

    =======================
    Sometimes, I feel humor is the best way to get a point across.

    When I left, I read a rumor at TexasPolygamy.blogspot.com about a furace in Texas, and said, “That’s odd. I was going to help build controls for this furnace, but kept getting interrupted with other holy projects (while drawing a paycheck from the City). After reading GBNF’s post (gone, but not forgotted), I split a gasket and called myself “furnace.” But I oscillated. Some days I was convinced something was going on. Others I said, “whoa on the rumors–if this was real, why only casual secrecy”; the type of secrecy to make one feel special and important, but not the type when you really are up to no-good.

    When the dictations came out, I realized that more than likely it was a harmless secrecy on cement making. I am not likely to steal their cement recipe that they had to keep so sacred and secret “because the wicked gentiles will want to steal it”. Instead, I am concerned that the temple may not be structurally sound!

  125. I have never formed cement for a living.

  126. Can I ask Chemist if he works in a laboratory or if he even knows what a covalent bond is? Where did that name come from?

  127. Let me guess…it’s cheaper to produce?

  128. Well I confess that I’m probably not any relation to the Biblical Rebeckah (if she existed). But it’s a more exotic form of my own name, so I like it. 😀

  129. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Whenever someone is excessively morally pure, something is wrong. Like too holy to bathe with a wife, but allowing children at 12 years old to marry. “Strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.” (I believe those words are pronounced very similar in the Jewish language, from a rumor I heard somewhere)

  130. cement

    I want to say that I really admire you. Our parents condition us from a very early age. We grow up with a biological, psychological and spiritual legacy. You’ve had the strength and courage to really look deep within and question all that conditioning.

    It takes a true man to abandon all that we think is the ground that holds us up and be brave enough to be groundless long enough to find a true base.

    I wish you the best in your search for “truth.”
    *****

    Ron, I just have to say I echo this statement and say AMEN, thanks for saying it so well.

  131. Cement, I have to say I have more respect for you than you can imagine. This is coming from a place that you may be able to guess in a minute. I happen to know someone that has nothing but good words to say about you. In working on the different projects that you did while in the FLDS you worked with one certain person that you had respect for. You have said before that if any type of furnace was being built at YFZ you are certain that this person was in charge of the project. After the raid one of his wives and all but 2 of her children was able to leave, I have had the great pleasure of becoming friends with her. She is absolutely certain that you are someone that she highly respects and remembers as a person that was always kind and thoughtful. Please know that there are other ex-FLDS out there that read but do not post and are thankful for your honest opinion that is always put forth without condemning everyone else.

  132. I second that, Ron and Sadie. The wickedly dry humor you share with us from time to time is appreciated too. 😉

  133. Hey, Sadie, you work with women trying to leave abusive situations? If so, would you let me know if there’s anything I can do (as a poor person) to help? Like finding some second hand clothing to donate somewhere or something like that?

  134. Rebeckah, I’ve been frustrated trying to find a way to help polygamist women who want help, so I finally applied to the local women’s shelter to volunteer. I doubt I’ll run into any polygamists, but the basic issues are the same. They require a background search and character witnesses. I think I’ve gotten paying jobs with less trouble. I understand why they need this, though.

  135. Rebeckah, I just happened by chance to fall into a situation where I was able to help. It is not a profession or even an avocation, just being at the right place at the right time and the ability to care and love. From this experience I found that is all it takes. I had great help and support in this experience from being able to talk to the members of the Kindred Spirits when things would come up that I had no idea how to handle or if I was doing the right thing at the time.

    I have another friend (another member of the KS) that every time something horrible is said about an ex-FLDS she sends $10 to the hope organization, this serves several purposes, it reminds her to not loose her “cool” and respond with a really nasty post and it aids the Hope organization in helping victims of the FLDS. It is my opinion that she has done more to help with these donations than I will ever be able to do

    Believe me I am not “rich” in monetary terms but I am rich in friends and loved ones. Please know that just in posting your very insightful views you do help, you let people know that there are “outsiders” that really do care about the rights and well being of the women and children trapped within the FLDS.

    It doesn’t take money or “things” to make a difference it takes “heart”, that you have proven to have in abundance!

  136. Ditto, Ladysadie 🙂

  137. Doesn’t matter what state you live in, there are always those who are in need, maybe just a winter coat, maybe just ear to listen, maybe just saying, “Hey I care”. Ive worked with crisis centers in several places,, Im not doing it right now,because it takes so much emotionally from me. Sometimes, it just makes you want to scream, or take a young lady and bring her home with you!!

  138. duane always argues to the end and then hightails it when his displayed beliefs, unchanged judgment and faulty evaluations fall short of events, facts and the evidence. Justice will prevail, truth will shine bright and the rule of our laws will remain long beyond any critics, detractors or dissenters views or opinions.

    duane try having an exchange with someone like your hero Bilem and see if he doesn’t silence, vulgarly curse and “edit” their views.

    You don’t see a huge discrepancy between his practices and empty words?

  139. Cement,
    Is this what your looking for,,click on it and scroll down. Convlent bond is used in making cement, and in furnaces…
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/8061381/1491Ch04-

  140. cement wrote “I have never formed cement for a living.”

    Irony. I have.

  141. I was just wondering if Chemist has nothing to do with his/her occupation, just like cement has nothing to do with my occupation.

  142. Cement:
    Covalent bonds in compounds are bonds where electron pairs are shared between the atoms involved. Depending on the electronegativity difference between the two atoms, covalent bonds may be polar or non polar.

  143. cement, yes, chemistry is my field of study and how I have made a living for most of my life.

  144. Chemistry’s fine. Just stay away from astronomy. That freeks me out. I can never tell if someone is totally brilliant or nuts when they yippity yack astronomy.

  145. Cement, it’s rather hilarious that Jeffs wanted to keep secret how and the ingredients of the cement he concocted for the builidings at YFZ ranch.

    Mortar is mortar and somehow he made it sound like HIS mortar was special, which no one seems to find anything unusual. Jeffs liked secrets!!

  146. Sadie and DeputyDog, thank you so much for your kind words! It really gave me a lift. (Especially after arguing with Duane and Hugh all day.) I asked because I don’t just want to protest what’s wrong, I’d like to be part of the solution too. I live right next to Idaho so maybe I’ll get the chance to do something tangible eventually. I did send coats to Short Creek last year and I think I’ll do the same this year.

    Chemist, that interesting, my Dad is a chemist. He creates polyelastomers. He’s made a lot of compounds for stuff like drywall, paint and right now he has his own business building and/or coating slides for waterparks. I am only a chemist in the kitchen — but I’m great there! 😀

  147. Chemist in the kitchen? First rule of chemistry is never smell it, taste it, and sometimes, don’t even touch it. Isn’t that right, chemist?

  148. Rebeckah, don’t down play the effect your protesting does, people read! And even if you don’t know it FLDS and ex-FLDS people do read the blogs and boards you comment on. Your words are always kind and not condemning, people notice.

  149. Rebeckah your good “folk”! You always post intelligent well written comments!

  150. Thank you, Sadie. I know I’m harsh with people who seem to be intentionally obtuse, but I try really hard to try and see the other side too. That’s how I can empathize with the pain Barbara went through when Merianne was in foster care and still understand that her choices have no place in a law abiding society.

  151. Rebeckah, if you ever want to just “talk” drop me a line at: flalady1126@yahoo.com

  152. Thanks Sadie, I sent you a short e-mail so you have my e-mail address now.

  153. cement: As far as not smelling it, etc. Some chemists use the term “avoid all un necessary exposure”.

  154. lol, except for us kitchen chemists! I bake by how it smells — drives my daughter in law crazy. I generally don’t know exactly how long I cook something because I just cook it until it smells done. (Comes from years of not having a cooking timer.) 😀

  155. Rebeckah, that’s like my mom’s instructions for cornbread, biscuits, pancakes, etc.: to the dry ingredients, add buttermilk until it “looks right” … except I have no idea when the batter looks right!

  156. Yes, that’s me I’m afraid. I usually just show her since I’m really not trying to make her crazy. I just have done it for so long I can’t describe how exactly I do it.

  157. And really, since the amount of liquid and oils in flour varies based on it’s freshness, the humidity, how well it was stored, etc., the “until it looks right” instruction is actually the best way. Somethings are best learned by human to human transfer and failing that, trail and error.

  158. I know you aren’t Elly May, but I couldn’t resist, knowing what we were taught on Chemistry.

  159. I actually say that I’m a Kitchen Chemist because in the 10th grade I got a D instead of an F in Chemistry because I broght my Chemistry teacher homemade chocolate chip cookies. He said anyone who could make cookies like that knew something about Chemistry but I had to promise not to try and make a career of it. lol

  160. I learned while doing natural dyes, that it’s a bad idea to hang your head over the dye pot hoping to watch what’s going on. Inhaling fumes from metal salts or lye is not the greatest plan in the world.

  161. lol!

    By the way, the Anonymous post above is me. I forgot I cleared my cache last night.

  162. Truly no matter if someone doesn’t understand after that its up to other viewers that they will assist, so here it occurs.

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