Open Discussion #13

Continued from Open Discussion # 12

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on September 9, 2009.

591 Responses to “Open Discussion #13”

  1. Trib is reporting the FLDS appealed Linbergs ruling to the Utah Supreme Court

  2. How can you request tax exemption when you owe back taxes? And, if it isn’t used for worship [etc] anymore, then isnt it just an abandoned building? I’ve read varying stories about how no one is allowed in it anymore cuz it was ‘desecrated’ during the raid.

  3. FLDS bishops appeal ruling to Utah Supreme Court
    Associated Press – September 9, 2009 6:15 PM ET

    SALT LAKE CITY (AP) – Two polygamous church bishops are asking the Utah Supreme Court to overturn a district court’s decision that they claim denies them their constitutional right to carry out their ecclesiastical duties.

    Lyle Jeffs is the bishop for Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz. His brother, Warren Jeffs, is the jailed prophet of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

    James Oler heads the faith’s Bountiful, British Columbia branch. As bishops they are expected to provide for the spiritual and physical needs of church members.

    Both men sought to intervene on behalf of the FLDS in a 3rd District Court dispute over a church land trust under state control since 2005.

    In July, a 3rd District Court Judge Denise Lindberg rejected their request.

    http://www.localnews8.com/Global/story.asp?S=11102367

  4. Lyle Jeffs is the bishop for Hildale, Utah—-
    Does this translate as new prophet? I thought someone said he was the new big cheese? To me, that meant new prophet.

  5. I couldnt find anything on the appeal on the Trib. Once again, Brooke is behind the 8 ball.

    I cant wait to see the appeal and Lyle Jeffs name in bright lights on the header.

    Is he sure he wants to go to the Supreme court? Havent they used up all the political capital they once had when the pictures of the child molesters went public?

    Soozie – Ya might say he is the “Prophet waiting in the Wings”

    OR

    “The Surrogate Prophet”

    OR

    “The grim reaper” (to various suspicious FLDS folks)

  6. The appeal document is on Brooke’s blog.

  7. James Oler is in another country, canada, what is he getting his drawers in a wad for!!!

  8. DeputyDog the UEPTrust owns the land in Canada, but your right it would seem to be a Canadian jurisdictional trust issue. There is always someone else to step forward and claim rights or assert claims but no one has been around for the past 5 years, Bishop Oler has been in Bountiful, Canada for that long and never acted before now?

  9. Anybody heard from Greetings from New York? Haven’t seen her post in a while.

    I’m leaving on vacation tomorrow, so won’t be posting for the next 10 days. Hope I don’t miss the really good stuff! 🙂

  10. I believe Greetings said she was going to be busy for awhile???
    Have a good trip TexasConnie!!!

  11. This filed Docketing Statement with the Utah Supreme Court lists three other parties besides Bishop’s Oler and Jeffs, namely Willie [R.] Jessop, Dan Johnson & Merlin Jessop. Does anyone know who Dan Johnson and Merlin Jessop are to be joining in on this filed statement? Guess Willie Jessop is no longer playing a role of private citizen or common FLDS member, as he portrayed himself before the Texas Legislative Committee?
    Why would Bishop Oler be named as a party when he faces bigamy charges in British Columbia, Canada.
    Funny, how quickly the ,’Answer Them Nothing’ policy gets abandoned when the judges ruling goes against their aloof silence posturing.

  12. CaJim

    IMO they named those three as “users” of the land to benefit the “storehouse”… Although whats funny is they forgot to mention what product was made for it and how anybody benefitted.

    Or that is was abandoned. Or that as a “sacred Temple site” they didnt have any drawings or plans in the works, while the plans that WERE in place were to leave shortcrick and damn what and who was left there.

  13. Funny, how quickly the ,’Answer Them Nothing’ policy gets abandoned when the judges ruling goes against their aloof silence posturing.
    ================================================
    Really? I always thought that they have been very vocal for the last year and a half?

  14. GFNY has a work deadline to meet. She’ll be back. Nothing to worry about.

  15. Ali

    That is a reversal of Warrens “ATN” policy that lost them the UEP in the first place.

    Guess Warren cant nail down a prophecy to save his life.

  16. Who’s they, Alinusara? This Docking Statement is the very first time any FLDS Church official has stepped forward to state any claims. What planet do you live upon? Being very vocal on the courtroom doorstep doesn’t mean your represented in the Courtroom or have any legal say where it really matters. Get a clue!

    ATN = ‘Answer Them Nothing’.

  17. The crickers should “ATN” when Lyle comes by treating them like an “ATM”…

  18. HA!!!! I would like to KNOW ONE piece of land Willie Jessop has ever given to the trust? I know he has taken alot of property, but other than a big mouth and his bullying tactics,he shouldn’t even be allowed to speak!!!!

  19. Ehhh? I’m old and can’t hear so well. Who’d ya say was the new Grim Raper, sonny?

  20. Being very vocal on the courtroom doorstep doesn’t mean your represented in the Courtroom or have any legal say where it really matters. Get a clue!
    ================================================
    Really? I thought they had a small army of attorneys working for them?

  21. Well, Alinusara I guess you are rather clueless on who has been administrating the UEPTrust since 2005 and the FLDS Church has refused to appoint any representatives to the UEPTrust board or send any FLDS Church spokesperson until the Berry Knoll sale has been under consideration. The more recent negotiations with the Utah/Arizona AG Offices and all the Beneficiaries ended in no agreement/settlement and no the Bishop’s and their attorneys have not been involved. The Bishop’s were observing the ‘Answer Them Nothing’ policy, remember?

  22. Alin; Could you identify and post the names of just a few of the small army of attorneys that represent the flds in the UEP dispute?

  23. UEPTrust since 2005 and the FLDS Church has refused to appoint any representatives to the UEPTrust board

    Well good for them. So Cajim, if a court took control of your home and directed that you must share it with several homeless bums but declared you could have a “vote” on a committee consisting of these bums and youself that meets on a weekly basis to determine living arrangements and “house rules”, would you be ok with that?

  24. Well dizzy deci duane,it has actually not been good for them. It has been very bad for them. Of course your strawman, as per usual, is not even close to the facts. Howeve if posting carp makes you happy, keep at it. Sometimes it it is so out there that it is funny.

  25. it has actually not been good for them. It has been very bad for them.

    Yes ale wifo, it has been very bad for them so far, are you enjoying it? Does it excite you on to know that hundreds of innocent families are suffering economically because of Lindberg?
    Ya gettin’ off on this? Pain turns you on eh?

  26. Duane I know we aren’t suppose to ask personal questions but I am going to try and sneak this one in.

    How do you get on that high horse? Do you use a step ladder? Do you take a running leap? Just curious.

    Love Walton

    P.S. The problem isn’t with Lindberg. The problem is that no one has done anything for themselves for a very very long time. They followed a man who controlled and wanted more control. Then they stood by and watched that mans son take over their money, their families, their homes, and their backbone. jmo

  27. They’re not innocent. They engage in criminal behavior. They have choices, and they made the wrong decisions. They are not suffering because of Lindberg. They are suffering because they are pigheaded.

  28. it has been very bad for them so far

    Really? What’s the evidence? Are you saying the $100 per month occupancy fee is onerous?

  29. Skinwalker duane: It has been bad for many flds people because their leaders took the short creek donations to finance yfz and other lands of refuge. It has been bad for them because of the many legal bills the flds leaders are having to pay. It has been bad for them because warren mismanged the uep and did not defend it which allowed default judgments against it.
    The PEOPLE who made it bad for them are the FLDS LEADERS, not Judge Denise Lindberg. You know this and yet you defend your flds heros like merril and warren. Does it trouble you to take money from pliggy to post the carp you post?

  30. I nominate this as quote of the week!

    “They are suffering because they are pigheaded.”

  31. Amen to that Betty. It is funny and sad at the same time to see the flds sue Wisans and the trust. All they do is pay the lawyers on both sides. Pigheaded is the right term . So much for the “we are a peaceful people” line of garbage.

  32. Walton

    Your use of the word “Curious” put your post into moderation. The poster “Curious” is banned, and use of that word puts a post into moderation. FYI.

    Your post has been approved.

  33. Duane you know what excites me??? The fact, even though many flds members are nervous about making their own decisions, owning their own houses without fear , Im willing to believe most are very excited about owning for the first time their own house, being responsible for their OWN decisions, and still keep their faith!!

  34. I have a question? The new HOOT in Texas YFZ ranch,, was turned over to John C Wayman,,, and signed over by Merrill Jessop. Since Merrill Jessop’s name was NEVER on the legal documents as owner of YFZ ranch,,, how can that be legal???

  35. My observation is the FLDS Church demonstrates no self-examination, criticism of it’s leadership or ownership of any aspects of mismanagement/illegal acts that have lead to the UEPTrust falling under the Courts control and administration. They have done nothing wrong and all fault lies away from the Prophet, FLDS leadership or Church failures. It just amazes me how innocent, misunderstood and vitimized 10,000 members can see themselves as 100% guilt free of any blame, rather an amazing group, really deluded beyond rational reasoning.
    I have never seen anyone short of La Cosa Nostra that can find all fault with the Government and Judicial System, alone for their series of ‘bad breaks and misunderstandings’.

  36. Just saw the Bonnie and Clyde movie.

    Couldnt help but think of Warren and Naomi.

    LOL

    They were too chicken to fight the law with anything stronger than wigs, shorts and black socks.

  37. Don’t forget the “motorcycle” Stamp 🙂

  38. Thanks for the info FLDS Texas. I thought maybe I was in the dog house.

    Stamp it took me almost a week but I do know the poster Spotlight.

  39. Walton

    Have you sent him an email?

  40. Stamp I gave a third party that we both know permission to give him my e-mail addy. That was maybe a year ago now. We exchanged a couple of e-mails.

    The only reason I went 3rd party is because we were talking on a message board. If I would have put my addy out there I could have gotten 10 emails from someone claiming to be the person that I wanted to visit with.

  41. Bill Mudpucky is planning on biddling on the Berry Knoll Farm

    “Part of the exhaustion is to play Denice’s game of “Hide the monkey” and put Berry Knoll up for bid. As you may recall, she directed cousin brucie to come up with a plan to notify prospective buyers of the bidding process. Well, I’ve been waiting, because I think it would be really neat to own a farm in the middle of a desert. The only folks who have been successful at it are the Israeli’s and the FLDS, and I’m fortunate enough to have friends in both camps.

    So, just in case brucie and Denice had any other plans, let’s keep in mind that I intend to bid on the Farm, I expect my bid to be logged and looked at, and I expect my bid to be considered. If not, we’re looking at fraud here guys, and that’s a no-no.

    I will be calling Denice daily until brucie comes up with a public bidding plan, and those of you who might want to start your own farm in a desert, all you have to do is call Denice at 801-238-7019 and get the details.”

  42. I hope that dude can cover his bid with a bond or lender letter. I had a jerk bid on a horse at auction one time but his check wasn’t good. Sounds to me that mudpucky just wants to monkeywrench up the works, I doubt he can afford much more than new overalls.

  43. Again,,, the guy is warped…. IF you bid on a farm, or house, or business, you have to back that bid with cashier’s check, or bank approval letter before they will even LOOK at your bid.

  44. ohhh…that man is just a bunch of hot air!!!! I sorta doubt he’s gonna do that!!!!!!!!

  45. True Jobo, betcha he even spits when he talks!!! LOL 🙂

  46. He can’t seem to spell ‘Denise’ correctly and always uses a “c” instead of an “s”. His gamut of attorney(s) sent in already from Florida to bring a lawsuit hasn’t materialized and now we’re supposed to believe he’s going to actively bid on the Berry Knoll? I’ll wait to see if time cools his rhetoric back to his more normal inaction. I guess BillM isn’t aware of the Egyptian ‘dry water’ techniques in the desert to be referencing his Israeli desert farmers? I wonder if he’s got a cure for fumarse deficiency, too? I understand some FLDS Church congregation members fault the local water for this deficiency.

  47. I find the constant use of nicknames and cute titles like “cousin brucie” to be really offensive. It’s the same old game many talk radio folks use on all sides of the political spectrum – dehumanize the person you are talking about, then it’s easy for people to believe them capable of crimes.

  48. BillM displays the criminal mindset that reflects his felony thinking. He may have served his sentence but quite obviously he has not rehabilitated his unlawful perspective of conducting oneself outside of the legal Law and Order, those willing to take the law into their own hands. He reasons, warps and rationalizes his virulent mindset against Law Enforcement in some failed attempt to dress his criminality as legitimate. His minds a scary place to visit and I am thankful that I don’t have to live there.

    Good Ole Grandpa Bill is just a common criminal.

  49. Yes, it’s obvious that any and all LE is BAD, wrong and corrupt to him.

    The way he latches on to any article that is anti-government and then completely buys into the truth of the whole article (and the idea that it is the whole truth as well) shows his lack of critical thinking.

    I also think it’s hilarious that there are two April Day logins. Wonder how that happened?

  50. I understand some FLDS Church congregation members fault the local water for this deficiency.
    ===========
    I never heard that, but I have heard it blamed on bomb testing in Nevada.

  51. fault the local water for this deficiency

    I’m sorry – I must have missed that part of the thread – what deficiency?

  52. fumarse. I didn’t realize in quoting another poster that this was missing.

  53. cement

    Thanks. I would say I can’t believe they’re that stupid, but I guess I really can believe it.

    Seems like I remember reading an article where geneticists had actually traced it back and knew what two carriers actually planted the genetic time bomb.

  54. Strange the “water issue” came up in the last hearings… First anyone has heard about it… So Flds have latched on to the “water issue” as a excuse for Lindberg not to sell berry knoll.
    Anyone wanna guess what it excuse is next?

  55. Cement the Nevada Testing is a part of the storyline that the soils and water table are tainted which would not explain the presence of Fumarse Deficiency but does explain the reasoning of someone educated in the local private bible school. when Fumarse Deficiency appears in West Texas it’s going to be harder to blame on Nevada Testing.

  56. My understandig is that it is an autosomal recessive gene, in one person, then passed to offspring. If two descendents of the one person have the gene, they have a 1 in 4 chance of both giving the recessive gene to a child resulting in the disease. Carriers don’t have the disease because it is recessive. The original mutation in the one person who had the defective gene could have been due to radiation or something else. So keep your stupid comments to yourself, it’s not that far fetched.

  57. So, was Madame Curie in the bloodline of the Barlows and Jessops?

  58. WC

    Yes, there are all sorts of reasons for genetic mutations; however, nuclear testing didn’t start until the 1940’s and obviously the FLDS pre-date that by a number of years.

    Interesting genetic factoid of the day – blacks and sickle cell? The same gene that gives blacks greater resistance to malaria is the gene responsible for sickle cell.

  59. The FLDS founding fathers predate the 1940’s, but the FLDS was actually a name that originated around 1990. These founding fathers are also the founding fathers of the AUB, Centennial Park, and a few other side religions.

    Careful, here, or WC will take you to task for saying the UEP predates the FLDS.

  60. Wikipedia on fumerase:

    According to the Phoenix New Times, the rare disease appeared when Martha Jessop, the daughter of Joseph Smith Jessop, one of the founders of the community, married her second cousin, John Yeates Barlow, in 1923. Tarby and fellow researchers at Barrow Neurological Institute at St. Joseph’s Hospital in Phoenix have found that the highest incidence of the disease recorded anywhere appears in the population of polygamists living in these two towns

  61. I never said anything about nuclear testing. For Martha and Joseph Jessop to have spontaneous mutations in the same gene would be so rare, it would be easier to find an intelligent comment on this blog.

  62. Sorry, that should be Martha Jessop and John Barlow.

  63. For Martha and Joseph Jessop to have spontaneous mutations in the same gene would be so rare

    Assuming they are spontaneous certainly disqualifies you from claiming any “intelligent comment” awards.

  64. “Assuming they are spontaneous certainly disqualifies you from claiming any “intelligent comment” awards”

    Well, I am certainly in the right place then. I don’t pretend to be a geneticist, but genes are complicated things. And the original mutation could have been due to environmental causes, then the bad gene passed on.

  65. WC your very conversant on the subject, care to share the reason for your knowledge or can we all guess? Yes radiation fall-out would be a possibility, even grounds contamination but water is not associated nor ever documented. Sounds very far fetched to me, of course, I don’t have to bet my religion on being skeptical like an FLDS Church member. Can you prove any radiation traces have been demonstrated to be present or are you just another true believer.

  66. When genes mutate, the DNA that codes for that gene has been changed. The change can cause the gene to effectively die or it can change the gene to do something else (in sickle cell, the gene that is mutated causes hemoglobin in blood cells to harden and change shape, or “sickle”, at low oxygen tensions which is a bad thing, but it interestingly imparts a resistance to malaria infection, which is probably why the bad gene is so prevelant). The mutation in the gene is caused by environmental factors (radiation, chemicals, viruses, etc.). The mutated gene is then passed to offspring. If you have one person with the bad gene and he has 20 kids, the gene statistically went to 10 kids, with the other gene in those 10 kids being a good gene from the mom. Then, if 2 kids of those ten marry and have kids, then 1/4 of the kids statistically is going to have the disease (getting two bad copies of the gene, one from mom and one from dad). It is impossible to tell what caused the original mutation in the dad in this example. Cancer and such are caused by somatic mutations, gene mutations in DNA after you are born, secondary to radiation, drugs, etc.

    There are obvious exceptions to everything I say here and I’m not an expert on this subject.

  67. WC

    Obviously no one knows exactly how this mutation took place, but it’s clear it didn’t spontaneously erupt in the Barlow and Jessop clans.

  68. Who said the genes mutated? All you have to have is a recessive gene for the disease that is blocked by dominant gene(s). Then you mate one person with the recessive gene and blockers and another person who does not have the trait but lacks the blocking genes. Voila. It can stay dormant for hundreds of generations without meeting the exact combination that would make the disease present. No mutation necessary.

    Fumerase deficiency did not create itself in Utah – there have been maybe 100 cases world wide, scattered around. The thing that is weird about the twin towns is that is so common. All you have to do to avoid it is to not marry someone in that gene line if you are also in that gene line.

    I don’t have much of a problem with two people knowingly and willingly making a choice to endanger themselves. Dumb, but don’t we all do dumb things. Endangering their progeny is something else. Doing all of this in pig headed ignorance at the instruction of their prophet takes it to a whole new level.

  69. Obviously no one knows exactly how this mutation took place, but it’s clear it didn’t spontaneously erupt in the Barlow and Jessop clans
    =====================================================
    It may very well have since it is the first documented case on record.

  70. No Alin wrong again. It had long been documented before it was found to be at work in the Creek. It was just very rare.

  71. “All you have to have is a recessive gene for the disease that is blocked by dominant gene(s). ”

    It’s starting to get complicated. Good genes, like hair color, can be dominant or recessive and this interaction from the two from your parents determine the color of your hair.

    Bad mutated genes can be dominant or recessive, and the interaction of the two and whether you have two good, bad, or half/half, determines whether you have the disease or not.

  72. Ali

    Read Ron and Betty, or better yet, do your own heavy lifting, google it.

    I had read where it was blamed on the water, however Cement and WC say the blame lies on nuclear testing, so that may be the “gold standard” blame for the time being.

    Also note that with 10,000 people you might have 10,000 opinions, and there has never been a church press release concerning the issue.

    Worse still, is Government either denying it or failing to act in any way.

    As it stands, the health clinic is behind locked gates, they could be performing excorcisms in there for all anyone knows.

    But in reading up on this, its become abundantly clear the action to address this issue has been next to NIL much like the child molestation issue and of course the rampant polygamy and abuse issues.

    Whats the name of that James Bond movie?

    “Live and Let Die”

  73. “The FLDS community, by and large, rejects the idea that Fumarase Deficiency is caused by genes, according to Tarby.

    “They have their mythology about the condition. They think it’s something in the water, or something in the air,” he says.

    Before Tarby retired in 2007, FLDS leaders invited him to address the community about the disorder and how to prevent it. He told them that prevention would involve barring marriages between people with the recessive gene, or asking those couples to forgo children.

    He suggested that families discontinue having children once the disorder presents itself, or test for the gene during pregnancy and selectively abort pregnancies with the deficiency.

    All were approaches rejected by the FLDS. “It’s not something they are willing to do,” Tarby says.”

    ===============

    http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1732498,00.html

  74. Fumarase and the FLDS, in my opinion, is their business. It comes back to religion and whether you believe in Heavenly Father or adhere to the religion of popular culture. FLDS are the best parents in the world and I have not heard of any faithful FLDS complain of having a mentally or physically challenged child. Deformed children have a place in God’s plan, it’s believed. Popular culture would say the child shouldn’t exist or should be aborted. It is the FLDS’s perogative.

  75. No Alin wrong again.
    =================
    /shrug since Wiki says 1923 I’ll go with them. One of the benefits of wiki is that it is constantly under peer review. If you find something different then please let them know.

  76. If we were really serious about birth defects we would ban alchohol and tobacco for pregnant women.

  77. WC

    See, two problems with your post. First, its no secret that the FLDS is on the public dole to pay for any and all problems their women and children encounter.

    The FLDS is a huge burden on society.

    As far as it being God’s plan, it seems like the plan is to put a stop to the FLDS.

    The FLDS have NO perogative to molest children.

    And conceiving severely handicapped children on a “Russian Roulette” basis is a pretty sick way to play house.

    But do the FLDS care? Seems like the stock answer is its “in God’s plan” but then why did Richard Cooke kill his two handicapped children?

    (as told by Ruth)

  78. WC,

    You are mixing up concepts.

    Mutated means that you have a gene in state A in one parent, state B in the other, but the child is born with state X. Or, as you say, in cases like viruses or cancer where the cell mutates after birth. Whether a trait is “good” or “bad” really is subjective in most cases. Mutation is often positive – for instance a species of bugs have a new predator who sees them by flying from above, but the bugs survive because of a mutation of the gene that makes them appear from above to look like the rocks that they live on. Now the bird/predator can’t see them and they survive.

    If you receive a gene in state A from one parent and in state B from the other but you look like a B, then “B” is dominant. You can have a gender specific gene if the gene is only located on the leg of the “X” that is not present in the “Y” of males.

    FD is not a matter of mutation, or at least of anything recent. It’s a matter of straight heredity. You can look it up in any of several medical articles on the subject easily available on the internet. It is a simple study in why there are rules against marrying your cousin.

    A similar example was the Hapsburg bloodline that dominated the crowned heads of Europe for hundreds of years. They had married only within their own station – i.e. married cousins – for so long that they developed a very high incidence of hemophilia. This disease only affects males because the blocking trait is located on the leg of the “X” chromosome that males do not have. So if a woman carries the tendency and she marries a man who has the tendency, then their male children will have it and will lack the blocking trait.

    If you think what I wrote is complicated, I have to question if you took earth science in middle school. Although mapping the entire human genome is very, very complicated, the logical concepts of genetics are fairly simple. A good encyclopedia should be able to clear up these concepts, or, like I said, an 8th grade science text book.

  79. Alin,

    If you are a descendant of one of the carriers of FD and you marry someone who is also a descendant, your chances of having children with FD is much, much better than for having birth defects from alcohol and tobacco. However, I certainly don’t recommend drinking or smoking while you are pregnant.

  80. WC:
    “It comes back to religion and whether you believe in Heavenly Father or adhere to the religion of popular culture. ”

    Why can’t you believe in Heavenly Father and then marry someone who is not your cousin?????

    Stamp:
    “As far as it being God’s plan, it seems like the plan is to put a stop to the FLDS.”

    Yeah, God’s saying “You asked for a sign. How could I make myself clearer? “

  81. Great posts Betty.

    Who would have children knowing they smoke crack, shoot heroin and drink or… or… or…. include both parents with the FD gene?

    How many FD babies are buried out back behind the clinic?

  82. Wiki does NOT say that the disease was first found in the FLDS in 1923. IT says that couple got married first in 1923. It says that there were 13 cases world wide when they began to be diagnosed in the FLDS. Alin, clear and simple, YOU LIE.

  83. Betty

    God has spoken.

    Have the FLDS listened?

  84. “If you cross a Barlow and Jessop, you stand a high risk of getting this condition,” Tarby says….

    Fumarase deficiency began to manifest in the community when three sets of Joseph Smith Jessop and Martha Moore Yeates’ great-grandchildren married each other. The three marriages between second cousins have produced at least eight children afflicted with fumarase deficiency, according to a report in the May 2000 Annals of Neurology(based on the study conducted by the group led by Tarby and Aleck), interviews with doctors treating the disease and anecdotal evidence gathered from the community.

  85. “MUTATIONS in the production and development of fumarase have led to the discovery of several fumarase-related diseases in humans. These include benign mesenchymal tumors of the uterus, leiomyomatosis and renal cell carcinoma, and FUMARASE DEFICIENCY. Germinal mutations in fumarase are associated with two distinct conditions. If the enzyme has missense mutation and in-frame deletions from the 3’ end, FUMARASE DEFICIENCY results.”

    What part of that don’t you understand, Betty?

  86. Stamp,

    I think that if the men had to care for the babies and watch them slowly die, they would stop this business in a hurry. But that’s the cool thing about polygamy. The woman deals with all that, and then she presents the best to her husband when he has time for her and gets someone else to watch the sick child.

    BONUS! They can blame the woman’s sin or lack of faith for having the FD child in the first place and tell her it’s a test sent by God to purify her.

    I like to blame it on ignorance, cause otherwise it makes me so disgusted at the lack of basic human compassion that I’m almost physically ill.

  87. WC,

    If you are a descendant of those two people, you did not get the tendency from an asteroid, or the water. You got it from your parents, WC. What part of that do YOU not understand?

  88. There’s only one germline mutation in one person who had many descendents. These descendents having children produce the offspring with disease. Two people having spontaneous germline mutations in their fumarase genes (whether be due to radiation, viruses, or whatever) is inifinitely remote.

  89. And WC, please note my own words above “FD is not a matter of mutation, or at least of anything recent.”

    AT LEAST OF ANYTHING RECENT

    It’s not the will of God coming down on an infant like cancer, unrelated to the genetics of the parent.

  90. The point is, the original mutation is due to environment; it being passed on to descendents is hereditary. Is that dumbed down enough for you? This is worse than being head of an Acorn fund raiser for Obama.

  91. “Two people having spontaneous germline mutations in their fumarase genes (whether be due to radiation, viruses, or whatever) is inifinitely remote.”

    They don’t have to. That’s the point. It’s quite likely from the information presented that the two of them, being cousins, both had tendencies towards the disease that were increased by breeding with each other. Then THEIR descendants inter married again.

    Let’s say just for the sake of argument that there are twenty genes that cause the disease. Let’s say in the common population, most people only ever have 3 of these that are positive for the tendency.

    Generation 1 is a man with 8 “YES” genes and a woman with 16 “YES” genes.
    Geneartion 2 is their children who have between 8 and 16 “yes” genes. But members of Generation 2 marry the children of their father’s brother, thus picking up more “YES” genes.

    Generation 3 now consistently has 16 “YES” genes. They then marry someone who has the missing four and voila!

    And in that way you are selecting for the disease.

    You would never do this with cattle and call it the will of God. If you found out that you have a cow who repeatedly produced underweight calves, you would not go back to the guy you bought her from and ask for more from the same herd. You would drive down the road a piece and look there.

  92. Fumarase and the FLDS, in my opinion, is their business. It comes back to religion and whether you believe in Heavenly Father or adhere to the religion of popular culture. FLDS are the best parents in the world and I have not heard of any faithful FLDS complain of having a mentally or physically challenged child. Deformed children have a place in God’s plan, it’s believed. Popular culture would say the child shouldn’t exist or should be aborted. It is the FLDS’s perogative.
    ************************

    WC thats the STUPIDEST reasoning Ive ever heard!!! No, its NOT up to them,, because every child born with fumerase dies before adulthood, and its a savage disorder. When all Flds have to do is marry out of family bloodlines, which they refuse to do.
    There was NO such thing as nuclear testing when Martha and Joseph married.
    That’s the major reason we have laws in this country against, intermarrying WC… it causes genetic disorders like fumarese disease. Flds have been told what causes it since the early 90’s, and they have arrogantly ignored it. Im not willing to pay for the care of anyone who snubs their nose at a geneticist and refuses to do what is needed to prevent the disorder.

  93. Good article on FD and the flds.

    http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/724053/fumarase_deficiency_and_the_flds_a.html

    “The disease itself is very rare in the rest of the world,” according to Dr. Vinodh Narayanan of Arizona’s St. Joseph’s Hospital & Medical Center and Barrow Neurological Institute. Until recently, only about 13 cases were known worldwide. A few years ago, a pediatric neurologist named Dr.
    Theodore Tarby began treating some of the FLDS children in Colorado City and was shocked to discover several children were suffering from this genetic defect. By the early 1990’s, about 20 cases had been documented. “Arizona has about half the world’s population of known fumarase deficiency patients,” according to Dr. Tarby.
    Unexpected Consequences:
    The genetic defect has been traced back to one of the community’s founding patriarchs, the late Joseph Smith Jessop and his first wife, Martha Moore Yeates. One of their daughters married another of the community’s founding patriarchs and religious leaders, John Yeates Barlow. By the time Joseph Smith Jessop died in September 1953, he already had 112 grandchildren, the majority of them directly descended from him and Yeates.
    According to community historian and former FLDS member Benjamin Bistline, more than half of the 8,000 people now living in Colorado City and Hildale are blood descendants of the Barlows and the Jessops. It’s believed that more than half the residents carry the recessive gene. If both parents carry the gene it is likely that their children may be affected or become carriers, passing the defect on to future generations. “
    A Horrific Disease:
    Most children born with Fumarase Deficiency usually do not survive infancy. Those that do survive often suffer debilitating conditions, requiring constant care, often unable to walk or even sit up. “

  94. WC ,, by the Way go read Leviticus 18,,, Heavenly Father, said intermarrying was a NO NO!!!!

  95. Seems God knew what intermarrying would do before Genetisists did!

  96. It says that there were 13 cases world wide when they began to be diagnosed in the FLDS. Alin, clear and simple, YOU LIE.
    ===================================================
    Apparently you are willing to call me a liar while only skimming the text. Here is where your number 13 was found….

    Fumarase deficiency is extremely rare, with only thirteen diagnosed and identified cases worldwide until roughly 1990.

    Note that it doesn’t say before 1923 but instead says 1990.
    =============================================================
    I like to blame it on ignorance, cause otherwise it makes me so disgusted at the lack of basic human compassion that I’m almost physically ill.
    ==============================================================
    I like to blame it on ignorance, cause otherwise it makes me so disgusted at the lack of basic human compassion that I’m almost physically ill.
    I like to blame it on ignorance, cause otherwise it makes me so disgusted at the lack of basic human compassion that I’m almost physically ill.
    ===========================================================
    8 million babies a year are born worldwide with some sort of genetic birth defect. I’m sure you are not going to accuse all these parents for a lack of compassion in raising children with some sort of disadvantage. Here is the top 5 leading causes.
    ========================================================
    Jan. 30, 2006 — Every year, about 8 million babies worldwide are born with gene-related birth defects, says a new report from the March of Dimes.

    That figure amounts to 6% of all global births in a given year, the report shows.

    There are more than 7,000 genetic or partially genetic birth defects. Five common types account for a quarter of the world’s cases, says the March of Dimes:

    Heart defects: More than a million births worldwide yearly.
    Neural tube defects (including spina bifida): Nearly 324,000 births worldwide yearly.
    Blood disorders (such as sickle cell disease and thalassemia): More than 307,000 births worldwide yearly.
    Down syndrome: More than 217,000 births worldwide yearly.
    G6PD deficiency (enzyme deficiency that causes anemia): More than 177,000 births worldwide yearly.

  97. “Is that dumbed down enough for you? This is worse than being head of an Acorn fund raiser for Obama.”

    When argument fails, you can always resort to insults.

  98. You ignorant SOB!!!

  99. “8 million babies a year are born worldwide with some sort of genetic birth defect. I’m sure you are not going to accuse all these parents for a lack of compassion in raising children with some sort of disadvantage.”

    If they got the disease because they married their cousins AND they knew that, then yes, I would blame them. I have little or no sympathy for a family that has four hemophiliac children, for instance. They should have stopped at one when they realized they were carriers.

  100. Boy, when you argue with facts and logic, they get really annoyed, don’t they?

  101. Fumarase Disease is more prevalant in Flds than any other country worldwide Alinusara… You think Dr Tarby or the other geneticists don’t know their research?

  102. There are quite a few things banned in Leviticus 18 that are pretty common place in fundamentalist mormonism in general . Like marrying your wife’s sister. Marrying your father’s wife after he dies. Marrying your wife’s daughter by another man.

  103. WC thats the STUPIDEST reasoning Ive ever heard!!! No, its NOT up to them,,
    ===================================================
    Really? You would control the bedroom activities of adults with the genes making it possible for them to have children with genetic disorders such as down’s syndrome, spina bifida, cerebral palsy? Your goal is to only have blond hair, blue eye children in hopes of having some sort of master race? Where have I seen this before?

  104. I apologize for the insult, Betty. I do not totally agree with everything the FLDS does, but I feel that they get an unfair deal on some arguments.

  105. Alinusara when marrying your first cousin, uncle, aunt, brother or sister is involved, you damn right, Im not willing to pay for the defects produced from ignorance. The taxpayer ends up paying for it. Are you kidding,,, LOL Master race?? that’s what Warren Jeffs wanted,,, have you looked at all the children of Flds,, they could all be from the same parents….
    My goal is to have healthy children, especially when this genetic disorder can be PREVENTED!!!

  106. Fumarase Disease is more prevalant in Flds than any other country worldwide Alinusara… You think Dr Tarby or the other geneticists don’t know their research?
    ======================================================
    I agree with his research. I don’t believe I said otherwise.

  107. The point is, the original mutation is due to environment

    You can’t say this for certain and the incidence of the mutation argues against it.

  108. WC 20 cases of children in 1999 were diagnosed with fumarese disease,, no one know how many more there are.

  109. There you go, being logical, Ron.

  110. WC you just continue to imply radiation causation to the mutation owing to radiation which has no credible proof or even authoritative basis beyond your own unfounded bias/innuendo. You earlier posts state that this mutation could have been due to “radiation” or “environmental causes” but you proffer no proof than your unintelligent conjecture. You can’t make an honest intellectual argument when you simply rely on your view/opinion. Saying we’re to dumb to grasp your missing facts is drowned in your dishonest debate and unestablished truths. You’re the unintelligible one in this conversation and accusing others of being the dullards is false and disingenuous.

    As already stated the preexistence of Fumarse Deficiency in Short Creek, refutes any insinuation of it having causation related to Yucca Flats testing in the 1950s, you simply wrong to infer it and have no proof because none exists.

  111. Fumarse and the FLDS, in my opinion, is their business. It comes back to religion and whether you believe in Heavenly Father or adhere to the religion of popular culture. FLDS are the best parents in the world and I have not heard of any faithful FLDS complain of having a mentally or physically challenged child. Deformed children have a place in God’s plan, it’s believed. Popular culture would say the child shouldn’t exist or should be aborted. It is the FLDS’s prerogative.

    ====================
    So, Bygnal Dutson raises a murderer, yet he is a better parent than other parents who have had all their children honorable citizens?

    As far as not complaining, think about the children, and I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. Religion makes people self-centered. “I’m getting saved. I’m the only one who will teach children right, so I got to grab as many of Heavenly Father’s spirits as possible so they don’t go to other homes.” The selfishness of such an attitude!!! Yet I heard it many times. Let these spirits waiting to be born be given a functional body, even if it is by someone not in your religion.

    People need to get off their pious high horse thinking they are the only ones worthy of bringing spirits into the world. And also, if you can’t finanically support more than 2-3 children, let someone else do it who can, even if they aren’t part of your religion.

  112. My goal is to have healthy children, especially when this genetic disorder can be PREVENTED!!!
    =========================================================
    That’s a pretty laudable goal. I would encourage all potential parents to have genetic testing done. Since 1990 we have found 20 cases in two cities while worldwide we have about 8 million genetic birth defects per year (this doesn’t include environmental birth defects). Perhaps this says it best:

    “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?” Matthew 7:3

  113. In the book, Favorite Wife, the author said that in Colonia LeBaron, it was considered normal and even encouraged for a young man to convert his first wife from outside and then take subsequent wives from within the community. This is also backed up by Irene Spencer in her book. This would allow for bringing in new blood. Also, they didn’t depend upon the revelations of one man when picking a spouse – supposedly the women had the revelation and chose the husband, although in some cases men had revelations. Irene jokes about how if a pretty young girl went to a meeting, five men would have a revelation about her later that night!

    So, apparently some related groups do not do the marriage by revelation of the prophet idea. I seem to recall similar stories from the FLDS prior to Warren. Does anyone know when that idea was introduced?

  114. So, Bygnal Dutson raises a murderer, yet he is a better parent than other parents who have had all their children honorable citizens?
    =====================================================
    /shrug Jeffrey Dalmer and the Virginia Tech shootist both had decent parents. Kids turn out how they will.

  115. Alinusara, Im not talkiing about all birth defects,, there are birth defects that can’t be prevented..But fumarese disease can be!!

    You don’t even have to take a vaccine,,,you just have to marry someone who is not the same blood line.
    Its against the LAW in most all states you cannot INTERMARRY for those very reasons Alinsura,, quit being stupid..
    This has NOTHING to do with religious belief, it has to do with humanity and FLDS have been told of this, since the early 90’s and have ignored it.

  116. Alin,

    The cases in twin cities are not accidental; they can be attributed to two descendants of those two people marrying each other. And I don’t know what plank you are talking about, hon; my husband and I are not cousins, nor are any of our ancestors back several generations.

  117. My problem is the use of superlatives. “FLDS are better than other parents.” No they ain’t. Am I any better? Don’t dare say.

    Time for the lighter side–

    A man was teaching a class titled “How to raise children.” After his first child was born, he changed the name of the class to “Suggestions for raising children.” After his second child came along, he cancelled the class.

  118. Was there a lot of radiation in that area in 1923 when those two married?

  119. Acutally, for all the anti-nukular (misspelling intentional) folks, Colorado City measured higher on the Geiger counter than the Nevada Test Site.

  120. cement, I like your joke.

  121. Jeffrey Dahmer was convicted of murder. His own father said, as a little boy he would torture animals.. Why didn’t the father get his son help back then?

    The dutson boy was KICKED out of FLDS at 14…where does a kid go at 14? And how does he stay out of trouble, when he isn’t allowed to talk to or see any of his family?? The dutson boy pled guilty for killing his girlfriend and he will serve his time.

  122. Alinusara, Im not talkiing about all birth defects,, there are birth defects that can’t be prevented..But fumarese disease can be!!
    =================================================
    Fetal alchohol syndrome is probably the easiest of all birth defects to prevent.

  123. IN most states a parent is responsible for their child till they turn18.. and Yes Parley Dutson’s family let him down

  124. Jeffrey Dahmer was convicted of murder. His own father said, as a little boy he would torture animals.. Why didn’t the father get his son help back then?

    =============================================
    Why didn’t the state help him?

  125. Fetal Alcohol syndrome can be treated Alinusara, and most babies recover..
    Fumarese cannot be treated at ALL! And All children DIE from it!

  126. The state? Why would the state help him? It was his father’s responsibilty when he was a kid to get his son help.

  127. I may have missed this….if fumarse was first diagnosed [in the now flds group] in 1923…and the first nuclear test was in 1945…how can they say it’s caused by nuclear testing, and the associated bad water and air??

  128. cement

    Have you got a link for the radiation tests?

    I’ve heard that there were many downwinders in Utah, including the St George area, and people got cancers.

    CO city may well have had a bad dose. However, I dont think radiation causes FD, no other instances worldwide, nor indeed Co city, have officially noted radiation as a cause.

    Werent the first cases noted before testing anyway? And IRT to inbreeding, this is a classic symptom (noted recurring birth defect) that afflicts inbred populations over generations.

    So in that light, with say, cancer as a strong marker of radiation overdose, I am not sure that problem has manifested itself much anyway, unlike, say Chernobyl.

  129. good grief, alin is either misinformed, has a short attention span or both. Trying to change the subject and divert attention. Just another troll.

  130. My two cents:
    Betty’s genetics is correct. WC is correct that the mutation had to start somewhere sometime. Tracking the mutation backward via genetics places the mutation at some time prior to nuclear testing. It does not mean that WC is incorrect in the original cause of the mutation, simply that WC is incorrect in placing it in the context of nuclear testing.
    WRT cement – here one could argue that WC is correct – there are other sources for nuclear exposure than nuclear testing – however, again, the back calculation for a mutation places further back.

    So …..you are all right to some degree

  131. My source is a science teacher who took a personal Geiger counter to the Nevada Test Site. He told me he didn’t volunteer that he had it with him in case it would be confiscated, so he quietly just smuggled it in. He tells me his little counter read higher in Colorado City than at the Nevada Test Site.

  132. Soozie

    I think the water is bad due to other reasons besides radiation, IE: Alkaline, or acidic. That is not a wet area and was under the ocean at one time. So the water may be full of myraid minerals, that could easily be filtered for drinking.

    One thing is sure, the water isnt responsible for anything bad there but to help mix the koolaide.

  133. About whether to give the FLDS a “break” on this

    NO – there are reasons why some states prohibit intermarriage of close relatives – FD is a good example. The Habsburgs cited by Betty above are another good example.

    From a “legalistic” point of view if Arizona/Utah do not forbid first cousin marriages, then it is a point of ethics/morality.

    In that case one should suppose the best interest of the child to be brought into the world and to bring a child into the world with the kind of problems associated with FD strikes me as profoundly selfish – particularly since it could easily be prevented with a different “revelation by the prophet” for a different spouse.

  134. I’ve heard it rumored, but never personally heard it myself, that Rulon made the comment “If you think we are marrying close now, you have no idea how close we will get.”

  135. cement

    OK, a second hand report, we cant really use that, as we dont know the tests of myriad other towns to compare it with. Wouldnt you agree, Ivins is closer, it might have had twice as much as Co city. But we dont know.

    What we DO know are the instances of cancer, or rather, the unremarkable incidence of it in the area today. So it seems that what radiation there was, has been washed down to pretty much nil.

    Of course if you read up on this stuff, they say the radon exposure you get in your home is equal to smoking a pack of cigs a day, depending on your location and house.

    Also of note, in talking of gene mutations, its my understanding this is how we track our ancestors. Over time different gene markers appear and are carried down.

    Science will tell us in the future not only what country we came from but what city.

    Here is a link, warning, spoiler for those that follow the BOM, it may not quite jive.

    http://www.honornation.org/smf3/index.php?topic=1761.0

  136. http://www.honornation.org/smf3/index.php?topic=1761.0

  137. On page 6 of this document, there is a map showing meteorological data for a fallout cloud in 1953. It shows a line roughly heading close the the Short Creek area.

    It makes sense that the Short Creek area may have received a fair amount of radiation.

  138. cement

    HA HA Well any thing weird Rulon ever said, Warren made wierder!

  139. More interesting info:

    According to a United States Department of Energy Nevada Operations Office (DOE-NV) publication “A Perspective on Atmospheric Nuclear Tests in Nevada,” areas in Southwestern Utah were in the fallout patterns of nuclear weapons tests from one to six times. (St. George: 6, Cedar City: 5, Parowan & Paragonah: 4, and Kanab: 1)

    “The majority of the exposure would have occurred during the first week following deposition (for each new deposition), and the rate of exposure would have decreased from then on. Radionuclides with a long half-life are still present in the environment but at a relatively low activity level,” according to a DOE-NV publication entitled “A Perspective on Atmospheric Nuclear Tests in Nevada.”

    From this document.

  140. Hmmm, any of you guys glow in the dark? 🙂

  141. Only tritium does that, and fission bombs don’t make tritium.

  142. Xlent find Ron, while it looks to have skipped Utah (those tests) it looks to have one flyby over Co City, but Mesquite NV seems to have really gotten nailed by every trajectory. Mesquite is a busting normal border town with no health issues that put it on any map.

  143. Oh wait, I think the probably did test a bunch of H-bombs at the Nevada Test Site. Any of them above ground?

  144. Short Creek was founded in 1913 by FLDS from Salt Lake City.

  145. How many non FLDS living in the area are known to have children with Fumarse Deficiency?

    Does anyone remember the big Ta Do about cleaning up the Park? There was an article written about Willie and Shurtleff doing their walk-about in the area.

    I believe there was mention of EPA being involved. I asked questions but never got any answers.

  146. Soozie “how can they say it’s caused by nuclear testing, and the associated bad water and air??”

    And odd that it only affects descendants of that one couple, don’t you think?

  147. Walton,

    It’s my understanding that every confirmed case so far goes back genetically to one man and one woman.

  148. Thanks Betty.

  149. The genetic defect has been traced back to one of the community’s founding patriarchs, the late Joseph Smith Jessop, and the first of his plural wives, according to medical literature, the Mormon Church genealogy database and residents of the community familiar with Jessop and Barlow family histories.

    Joseph Smith Jessop and his first wife, Martha Moore Yeates, had 14 children. One of their daughters married another of the community’s founding patriarchs and religious leaders, John Yeates Barlow. By the time Joseph Smith Jessop died in September 1953, he already had 112 grandchildren, the majority of them directly descended from him and Yeates.

  150. Joseph Smith Jessop died in 1953. John Yeates Barlow died in 1949
    Fumarase deficiency began to manifest in the community when three sets of Joseph Smith Jessop and Martha Moore Yeates’ great-grandchildren married each other. The three marriages between second cousins have produced at least eight children afflicted with fumarase deficiency, according to a report in the May 2000 Annals of Neurology (based on the study conducted by the group led by Tarby and Aleck), interviews with doctors treating the disease and anecdotal evidence gathered from the community.
    The children afflicted with fumarase deficiency from these three marriages include the grandchildren of Dan Barlow and his brother, the late Louis Barlow, and Merill Jessop, a top aide to fugitive prophet Warren Jeffs. It is Merill Jessop who is overseeing construction of a massive FLDS temple in Eldorado, Texas, where many believe Prophet Jeffs plans to move his faithful eventually.

  151. Isaac Wyler, a former FLDS member who was excommunicated from the church last year, says he has firsthand knowledge of multiple fumarase deficiency children in each of the three families.
    “I know this off the top of my head,” Wyler says. “I know these people personally.”

    Medical experts say the incidence of the disorder will increase because the FLDS community is refusing to accept recommendations to reduce the likelihood of producing babies with fumarase deficiency. Tarby says he discussed the disease and its causes during a town meeting on November 18, 2004, that was attended by more than 100 FLDS members.

    Tarby says he explained to the gathering at Town Hall in Colorado City that the only way to stop fumarase deficiency in the community is to abort fetuses that test positive for the disease and for the community to stop intermarriages between Barlows and Jessops, Barlows and Barlows and Jessops and Jessops.

    Tarby says members of the community made it clear that neither choice was acceptable. Tarby recounts a conversation he had with a member of the Barlow clan in which he tried to explain why so much fumarase deficiency was occurring among Mormon polygamists.

    “I said, ‘You’re married to somebody you’re related to. That leads to problems.’

    “The man’s response was, ‘Up here, we are all related,'” Tarby says. “They just don’t worry about the effects of intermarriage.”

  152. The only long-term solution to the health crisis is for Barlows and Jessops to have children with spouses from outside the polygamist community.

    “They have to outbreed,” Aleck says.

    But this is a very unlikely scenario for FLDS faithful, who practice a religious doctrine that requires men to be strictly obedient to religious leaders and requires women to give birth to as many children as possible to increase the sect’s numbers.

  153. Charles Lynn Darger, 21, 325 W. Johnson Ave, Colorado City, Ariz., was arrested Saturday on charges of six outstanding warrants. Darger was booked into Purgatory Correctional Facility on $2,064 bail.

  154. deputydog1 thanks for all the info. Do you know or does anyone know Utah laws on relatives marrying one another?

  155. Walton , Utah has the same laws as most other states, you cannot marry a relative or first cousin.

  156. I hear that Warren Jeffs appeal to Utah Supreme court over his convictions-Oral Arguments will be November 4, 2009. But instead of being held held at Supreme Court, the trial has been moved to campus of BYU in Provo, Utah.

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705330066/Utah-Supreme-Court-to-hear-Warren-Jeffs-appeal.html

  157. Cement: I used to go rockhounding out at Topaz Mountain and thereabouts, everybody’s heard of the 1968? Dugway sheep incident, haven’t they?

  158. good grief, alin is either misinformed, has a short attention span or both. Trying to change the subject and divert attention. Just another troll.
    =========================================================
    Not really. I just follow the thread and add my 2 pennies.

  159. Do some research and move it up to a nickle, will ya?

  160. Whoever WC is, is clueless. FLDS I assume.

    Betty, your explanations were excellent. Well done!

  161. grannytoad

    I think that is abundantly clear.

  162. GrannyToad,
    Yes, I remember the sheep killing at dugway. The name skull valley comes to mind as the specific place. I think it was a Dugway Proving Ground test that went awry.

    Yes, WC seems to be quite clueless. I can hardly believe that the flds will not stop inter marrying even though they know that it greatly increases the probability of FD babies.

  163. The scariest part is that 1:4 implies that 3 out of 4 will survive to carry the gene set.

  164. … certainly, alin is trolling.

  165. Chemist

    The army conducted the test during a period of weather that included high winds, this incident really put a hurt on their testing.

    WC is just parroting what he is told, at least he admits its a mutated gene and is passed on.

    He now needs to get the calculator out and add 2+2, as the gene keeps moving down the line and the problems is still there.

    Moving the people to Texas didnt leave the gene in Utah.

    OOOPS

  166. Reminder: Mohave County Supervisor, Buster Johnson will be on the KNTR Speak Out Show with Paul Lavoie in lake Havasu City, today at 1:00 pm Texas time.

    You can listen live here: http://www.kntram.com/

    To ask questions or make comments live on air:
    928-854-5687

  167. He doesn’t need to add 2+2. He needs to multiply 0.90(chance you won’t have a defective gene become dominant) * 0.90 (chance you partner won’t have a defective gene become dominant). Each generation, this is a smaller number that is multiplied by itself when marrying close. It gets small in a hurry.

  168. “It’s believed that more than half the residents carry the recessive gene”

    And only 20 kids with the disease. That doesn’t sound right.

  169. Hey Boots, Good to see you posting again. Hope your move went well.

  170. WC

    Of course it doesnt sound right. It begs the question – where are all the other victims?

    Well, its a known fact that FD children often dont live long often dying in infant stage. And if there was an unspoken rule that prevented said afflicted children should live even “less long” than there may never be another one surface again.

    Which is why the state should moniter pregnancies. The CDC may get involved too, this is an underground epidemic that is kept well hidden – even more hidden than child brides.

    No one is taking pictures of these afflicted children, in fact, its almost impossible to find a picture on the internet of one.

    WHY IS THAT?

  171. Isn’t this disease multiple recessive genes rather than single recessive like blue/brown eyes? If it is multiple recessive, then about the only way to get all the recessives to line up is through inbreeding.

  172. I’m not into genetics, so correct me if I am wrong. If we have something multiple recessive, don’t you cut the odds in half each generation? So you may have something like 1 in 64 chance with Barlows/Jessop marriage on each child, then the next generation would be 1 in 32. Or is it square root, so the next generation is 1 in 8? Those that know, which way is it?

  173. WC wrote “Clearly the *mismanagement* has taken place subsequent to the court turning the trust over to Wisan … not when the trust was under the management of the FLDS church.”

    Well, that just shows that you don’t understand simple genetics and basic math. “RECESSIVE” is the important word.

    Let’s just make it Y for Yes and N for no, and “Y” is recessive. Each parent has two chromosomes. You can think of them as blond and brunette if you like. If you have one parent who has the “NN” and one who has the “YY”, you get, statistically speaking, four babies who are “NY”. Since “N” is dominant, none of them show any sign of the “Y” gene; they are all brunettes.

    If the parents are NN and NY, you get one baby who is NN and three who are NY; again, all brunettes.

    If you have two parents who are NY, you get:
    NN
    NY
    YN
    YY

    Voila, we have a blond from two parents who look brunette.

    The process is slowed with fumerase, since those who are “YY” , rather than being blond, instead don’t live to reproduce.

    However, the more you intermarry those who are NY, the more the next generation will be concentrated with NY and thus the more “YY” genes you are going to achieve.

  174. Well done Betty. A great explanation that everyone can follow even if they have no background in genetics.

  175. “Approximately 17 FH gene mutations that cause fumarase deficiency have been reported”. One or more of these mutations occured, by some environmental toxin, in the early stem cell that developed into sperm or eggs of Martha Jessop or John Barlow (according to Tarby’s geneology research). The mutation(s) occured on chromosome 1, not multiple recessive genes or chromosomes. This mutated chromosome 1 was then passed on to descendents. When two descendents, each with one copy of the mutated gene, have kids-then one in four statistically have the disease. If half the community are carriers, then I am guessing 1/4 of half the children should have the disease (much more than Tarby’s 20). I don’t know the percentage of kids that would be stillborn who have the disease.

  176. Here is an excellent article on FD. For some reason the trib cant handle facts, the Blaugh has died over there and the message boards are being moderated and links to facts are deleted.

    SO – here we go!

    PS – there were EIGHT victims in just one family!

    —————–

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/bookshelf/br.fcgi?book=gene&part=fum

    —————–

    “Distinctive facial features have been reported in some but not all affected individuals [Coughlin et al 1998, Kimonis et al 2000, Maradin et al 2006]. One individual had frontal bossing, low-set ears, and a small jaw [Zeman et al 2000]. All eight affected persons in one family had macrocephaly and dysmorphic facial features with frontal bossing, ocular hypertelorism, and a depressed nasal bridge; some had notched or anteverted nares and high-arched palate [Kerrigan et al 2000].”

  177. I admit, I don’t understand why the trust was turned over to Wisan, but I do understand basic genetics and math.

    Your explanation is very simplified. Genes are inherited, mutated, repaired, and interact in an enormously complicated system. The FD gene actually is fortunately following rather simple genetics.

  178. WC

    ” I don’t know the percentage of kids that would be stillborn who have the disease.”

    ===========================

    This is why there needs to be studies and tests.

    No one knows.

    Its a Scientific fact there is a major problem, why does society simply allow such a horrific disease to proliferate?

    It reminds me of the HIV epidemic. Not much done in the beginning, it went like a wave and destructed the gay community.

    I may be at odds with the FLDS on several scores, but I do not wish this disease on any child. The fact that it is preventable makes ongoing cases heinous.

    JMHO

  179. by some environmental toxin, in the early stem cell that developed into sperm or eggs of Martha Jessop or John Barlow

    1. Both Barlow AND Jessop had to have the gene.

    2. You have no evidence of environmental causes yet you continue to ignorantly stick to that theory. If it were environmental then you wouldn’t have people half a world away in a totally different environment possessing the same gene.

  180. WC

    The State took it over – the court appointed Wisan. Wisan was offered the position and he took it, presumably thinking he could do good.

    There is no evidence he ever had any vendetta against the FLDS.

    Nor the State. The State was appraised that litigants would fleece the UEP with judgements, but that isnt what they wanted – they wanted stability and homes for the FLDS people.

    The State noted that as a true fact and acted to help prevent the total destruction of the UEP.

    This is all documented fact.

  181. When two descendents, each with one copy of the mutated gene, have kids-then one in four statistically have the disease.
    ===========================
    I was wrong; it looks like it is not multiple recessive. But I believe that other genetic defects are multiple recessive, and each generation of inbreeding causes the recessive genes to start lining up.

  182. Ron

    I had read there were like 13 worldwide cases when this broke in Shortcreek and when they diagnosed cases came up with a count of 20.

    However as many victims are stillborn or die in infancy its obvious many were missed in the count. I imagine 100 – 200 cases were much more likely, and they are still happening today – you cant stop this by moving out of town.

    Add to the fact Warren reassigned families willie nillie, the women now have multiple chances of bearing this blight – if not with the first husband perhaps the second – and then of course perhaps passing the gene down with one or both “husbands”..

  183. “1. Both Barlow AND Jessop had to have the gene.”

    What are you talking about? Why do you think they both need the gene?

    “You have no evidence of environmental causes yet you continue to ignorantly stick to that theory. If it were environmental then you wouldn’t have people half a world away in a totally different environment possessing the same gene”

    I don’t believe I said that mutations were strictly due to environmental causes; just that you saying radiation as being a stupid theory was a load of crap. Saying that people in a different environment having the same mutation can’t be environmental is crap too- environment can mean multiple stimuli and multiple different mechanisms from differnent stimuli can cause mutations.

  184. No one is taking pictures of these afflicted children, in fact, its almost impossible to find a picture on the internet of one.

    WHY IS THAT?
    =======================================================
    Possibly because you need parental consent to photograph and disseminate the likeness of another person’s child.

  185. WC “What are you talking about? Why do you think they both need the gene?”

    OK, a Woman has an X and an X and a man has an X and a Y. When they make a baby, the baby gets one X from the mother and either an X or a Y from the father. To have FD, the baby must get the FD gene from BOTH parent’s chromosome and it either comes from the “X” or it is not located on the missing leg of the “Y”.

    This is getting annoying. We explain it to you and the you ask the same question over again without doing any research on your own.

    Try this on autosomal recessive:
    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002052.htm

    Also try a general description of genetics:
    http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/

  186. Whether or not it was originally environmental is now a moot point. It is being transfered genetically. Each new case is NOT a sign of environmental mutation, but a sign of grandpa and grandma.

  187. It is annoying. The gene is on chromosome 1, not on either sex chromosomes. I am tempted to make an insult here- but I will refrain.

  188. “I was wrong; it looks like it is not multiple recessive.”

    Autosomal recessive means that both parents have to transmit the gene, and that is what the description from the geneticists said.

  189. “If half the community are carriers, then I am guessing 1/4 of half the children should have the disease (much more than Tarby’s 20).”

    If you have a mother and father who are both carriers, then you have a 1/4 chance for each birth. But the chance for the whole community would be 1/2 * 1/4 = 1/8. However, that is only if they intermarry on a statistically even basis, which with such a small community is not given.

    It’s been my thought that the baby cemetery thing is really about FD and is thus very, very sad and not about anything more sinister.

  190. Which is why the state should moniter pregnancies. The CDC may get involved too, this is an underground epidemic that is kept well hidden.
    ——————————————————-
    Ugg! The last thing we need is the World Health Organization monitoring all pregnant women. Btw you have a strange concept of epidemic if only 20 cases was found worldwide since 1990.

  191. Yes, Alinusara, their answers seem to always come back to the government rescueing us.

  192. You bring up an interesting point Betty. From an intellectually curious standpoint I would be interested to know if their miscarriage rate in pregnant women is about the same as the general population. I would have a tendency to think it would be at a lower rate due to their policy of no smoking, drugs, alchohol, nutritional foods if all other things are equal.

  193. It is annoying. The gene is on chromosome 1, not on either sex chromosomes. I am tempted to make an insult here- but I will refrain.

    ==========================

    Last I checked, all 23 pairs split in half during meiosis, not just the X and Y

  194. “The genetic defect has been traced back to one of the community’s founding patriarchs, the late Joseph Smith Jessop, and the first of his plural wives, according to medical literature, the Mormon Church genealogy database and residents of the community familiar with Jessop and Barlow family histories.

    Joseph Smith Jessop and his first wife, Martha Moore Yeates, had 14 children. One of their daughters married another of the community’s founding patriarchs and religious leaders, John Yeates Barlow. By the time Joseph Smith Jessop died in September 1953, he already had 112 grandchildren, the majority of them directly descended from him and Yeates”

    I think I’m understanding the confusion here. These articles keep saying that Joseph Jessop and Martha Yeates both had the mutated gene, which is wrong. Otherwise, 1/4 of their 14 children would have had the disease.

  195. “Yes, Alinusara, their answers seem to always come back to the government rescueing us.”

    I said nothing of the sort. I am not “THEY”, I am me.

    Chances are if a new genetically transmitted disease is named and categorizd, the government was involved in some way – funding, sharing information, something. But I am certainly not in favor of all pregnant women having to report to some genetic review board. Shades of Hitler. No thanks.

    I DO think that if you know you have a tendency towards a genetic problem that you should consider that before getting pregnant. Unfortunately, most of us know very little about the health of our ancestors because such information was not available or was not recorded.

  196. Whether or not it was originally environmental is now a moot point. It is being transfered genetically.

    You’re right, but it’s just that the odds of two people coming together who both had some environmental change express itself in the same one gene is a statistical absurdity.

    I suppose it’s WC’s attempt to try to rationalize how God could have given a defective gene to his “chosen” people.

  197. “It is annoying. The gene is on chromosome 1, not on either sex chromosomes. I am tempted to make an insult here- but I will refrain.”

    I said basically the same thing – “To have FD, the baby must get the FD gene from BOTH parent’s chromosome and it either comes from the “X” or it is not located on the missing leg of the “Y”.”

    If it is not located on the lower and thus missing leg of the “Y”, then it is not gender related. That’s my understanding.

    Autosomal recessive means exactly what you just said; it is not on either of the sex genes and it requires the defective gene from both parents.

  198. “I suppose it’s WC’s attempt to try to rationalize how God could have given a defective gene to his “chosen” people.”

    The sun shines upon the righteous and the damned and it rains upon the just and the unjust.

  199. “Last I checked, all 23 pairs split in half during meiosis, not just the X and Y”

    I understood that the reason we call it a “Y” is that it is lacking genetic material. But I’m getting irritated with doing research for people who don’t want to learn, so I’m not going to spend any more time on this.

    I am reminded of the “pig headed ingorance” quote. It’s not just ignorance. It’s a stubborn desire to REMAIN ignorant. Well, gee, how’s that working for you!?!?

  200. Ron

    EITHER Barlow or Jessop had the gene – then when the gene was passed, and the grandkids intermarried, THAT is when there were paired genes.

  201. Look up X and Y chromosome in Wikipedia. The X has 150 million pairs of genetic codes, the Y has about 60 million.

  202. These articles keep saying that Joseph Jessop and Martha Yeates both had the mutated gene, which is wrong. Otherwise, 1/4 of their 14 children would have had the disease.

    Aaarg! First, we have no idea how many stillborn or deceased children they had. Second, each child has a 1 in 4 chance of having the disease. That’s vastly different than saying that 1/4 of their children would have the disease. It’s entirely possible with each child having a 1 in 4 chance of having the disease to have 14 healthy children.

  203. Stamp

    From the way I read the article, both Jessop and Yeates had the gene. A child of that marriage then carried it into the Barlow line. So now when you cross a Barlow and a Jessop you get a high likelihood of FD which is what Tarby says in that article.

  204. Ron, 14 children with a 1 in 4 chance of having the disease and none have the disease? Come on, now, you’re reaching.

  205. The articles are wrong. And so is Ron the sheeple.

  206. Yes, Ron, the way I read the article, the ‘mutation’ could have happened in England four hundred years ago for all we know.

  207. When in doubt, just start throwing insults.

  208. Unless Jessop and Yeates are closely related, then they both can have the gene. But it still came from one mutation up the line.

  209. “It’s entirely possible with each child having a 1 in 4 chance of having the disease to have 14 healthy children.”

    Toss a quarter in the air and call heads or tails. You have a 50/50 chance of getting one or the other. Ever roll five in a row? What Ron is saying is true. It’s on the first lesson on probability mathmatics, which I got as a senior in high school and again as a freshman in college, but my husband taught to his kids as home schoolers when they were about 12. Probability lessons can be a lot of fun.

    You need a big sample size to start matching the rule. 14 is not a big sample size.

  210. Why is it necessary for John to have the gene? Why can’t Martha alone introduce it into the Barlow line?

  211. I am reminded of the “pig headed ingorance” quote. It’s not just ignorance. It’s a stubborn desire to REMAIN ignorant. Well, gee, how’s that working for you!?!?

    ============================
    Please, correct me when I am wrong; am I really that stubborn.

  212. That’s possible, cement. I don’t think the article is specific enough; I think all it’s saying is that when their descendants intermarried, the known cases developed.

  213. We probably won’t know for sure ever because I kind of doubt that the FLDS are going to submit to genetic testing for the sake of promoting scientific and medical knowledge. Just a guess.

  214. cement, I was thinking of WC, who seems to be stuck with comments from three hours ago.

    I really do want to get the bathroom debris to the dump before it rains, so I better pull my self away from the computer. Genetics is much more interesting than ripping up 30 year old tile, but, I’ve got to act like a responsible adult now.

  215. With a 1 in 4 chance of a kid having FD and 14 kids

    Odds of 1 or fewer having FD 10.09%
    Odds of 2 or fewer having FD 28.11%
    Odds of 3 or fewer having FD 52.13%

    Odds of exactly 0 having FD 1.78%

  216. If we are going to involve the CDC then the Amish are to be targeted as well
    Genetic Disorders Hit Amish Hard
    Centuries Of Intermarriage Make Rare Diseases More Likely

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/08/60II/main700519.shtml

    We also need to go after Jewish sects as certain genetic illnesses run rampant among their populations as well. Genetic illnesses are not uncommon among isolated groups that tend to intermarry. How about sickle cell anemia? This disease is a result of black people “interbreeding” among themselves…inbreds.

    Perhaps a full blown Eugenics program needs to be implemented. We can sterilize all “unfit” people so as to keep them from “polluting” the gene pool with their spawn, think about all the genetic disesases that could be eliminated if we sterilzed blacks with sickle cell, Ashkenazi Jews with Tay sachs, Amish, etc…all of this for the benefit of mankind. Hopefully we won’t get carried away like the Germans did. Those Nazis’ gave Eugenics a bad name.

  217. So, what keeps an seriouly endangered species from becoming extinct as a result of inbreeding? Or is that one of the challenges in keeping an endangered species from becoming extinct?

  218. Ron, 14 children with a 1 in 4 chance of having the disease and none have the disease? Come on, now, you’re reaching.

    WC, duhh! They toss the ones with FD into the crematorium and “poof”, little puffs of smoke. At least that is what “stamp” said some time ago on the trib comments section.

  219. So, what keeps an seriouly endangered species from becoming extinct as a result of inbreeding? Or is that one of the challenges in keeping an endangered species from becoming extinct?

    Cement – if you think about it only certain genetic problems are going to kill an individual before it can reproduce and the odds of passing on that condition vary according to the particular disease.

    Obviously inbreeding with endangered species is a problem which is why zoos will ship individuals across the world so that another zoo can hopefully get some genetic diversity.

  220. Cement, what often happens is that in the short term, inbreeding brings out the genetic defects, then eventually the bad genes are bred out over the generations, as those with the defects tend to die out before they can reproduce.

    Some disesaes like Sickle cell anemia have persisted because sickle cell provides resistance to Malaria, which is a big killer in Africa.

  221. Duh Duane – like I said we don’t know how many children never made it to maturity. Besides I posted the odds – with a 1 in 4 chance and 14 rolls the odds of EXACTLY 0 is 1.78% However the odds of 1 or fewer is 10%

  222. Now assume 15 kids

    with a 1 in 4 chance

    Odds of exactly 1 – 6.68%
    Odds of 1 or fewer – 8.01%
    Odds of 2 or fewer – 23.6%

  223. Genetic diversity is important and is a major subject of environmental science. When species become endangered and humans attempt to save the species, genetic diversity is one of the factor considered. Sorry, I noted that Ron has said the same thing I am posting here, oh well.

  224. cement
    yes it is really a major issue for endangered species, even for large groups of animals if they are cut off from other groups then one can rather easily model on an excel sheet the rate at which genetic mutations should occur and when they will cause the population to crash. This is why wildlife management are very concerned about roads etc through various wilderness because the roads often fragment the total sustainable populations into smaller isolated populations that are unsustainable

  225. Ron, The families where the odds are 1 in 4 are undoubtedly very rare.

    Yes, FD is more common among the FLDS, nevertheless the vast majority don’t have it. It means nothing other that FD is more prevelant among FLDS, yes they ought to take steps to minimize the disease but ultimately it is up to them.
    This whole FD thing sounds like yet another attempt to interfere with their personal lives.

  226. “So, what keeps an seriouly endangered species from becoming extinct as a result of inbreeding? Or is that one of the challenges in keeping an endangered species from becoming extinct?”

    Cool question. (Yes, I should be working. But I did do 45 minutes or so of hard work.)

  227. “This is why wildlife management are very concerned about roads etc through various wilderness because the roads often fragment the total sustainable populations into smaller isolated populations that are unsustainable”

    And now we know why the possum was trying to cross the road. He was in love; or had a revelation; or was living out his specie’s demand that he stir up the gene pool, depending upon your point of view.

  228. “So, what keeps an seriouly endangered species from becoming extinct as a result of inbreeding?

    There is a point of no return when the population drops too low that recovery is impossible. However, small populations can recover because of reasons I posted earlier, the defects go extinct.

    There is strong evidence that humans endured a bottleneck about 80,000 years ago, our pop dwindled to maybe 1-2000 or so, we recovered.

  229. “A recent study in Iceland by the deCODE genetics company, published by the journal Science, found that third cousins had the highest rate of genetic success and children, suggesting a minimal relationship to each other is favorable in humans pairing off and reproducing.”

  230. Ron

    Not being argumentative, just trying to vet this out. My take is I think they don’t know who had the first gene, but only one, Jessop or Yeates, and with the intermarriage of off spring, most of whom had the gene, started off the chain reaction which lasts today.

    The New Times article was perhaps less than articulate on the issue IMHO, and I’m not sure if it was Tarby or the reporters fault, but I find it less than a perfect description of fact, as indeed it may be impossible to fully vet that.

    But the way I read this, it was either Jessop or Yeates who carried the gene.

    =============

    “The genetic defect has been traced back to “one” of the community’s founding patriarchs, the late Joseph Smith Jessop, and the first of his plural wives, according to medical literature, the Mormon Church genealogy database and residents of the community familiar with Jessop and Barlow family histories.

    Joseph Smith Jessop and his first wife, Martha Moore Yeates, had 14 children. One of their daughters married another of the community’s founding patriarchs and religious leaders, John Yeates Barlow. By the time Joseph Smith Jessop died in September 1953, he already had 112 grandchildren, the majority of them directly descended from him and Yeates.

    Fifty-two years later, more than half of the 8,000 people now living in Colorado City and Hildale are blood descendants of the Barlows and the Jessops, says Benjamin Bistline, a lifelong resident of the area who has published a book, Colorado City Polygamists, on the history of the fundamentalist community. ”

    ———–

    http://www.childbrides.org/taxes_PNT_forbidden_fruit.html

  231. WC

    Oh i am sure the Iceland samples didnt include any fumarase genes did they?

    BTW indeed inbreeding on low number endangered species is of high concern, in fact, zoos keep records of probably ALL animals to prevent inbreeding amongst there shared mating programs.

    Ron

    Good notes on odds – BTW did you see my post where one family had 8 (Eight – count em) FD children?

    It can go both ways. Also of note is the fact that fetuses may be spontaneously aborted (miscarriage) or still born, thereby further skewing true numbers. FD victims are truly “failure to thrive” children.

    I did find one picture of FD children from AR, they are non-FLDS and the children were born normally and appeared normal until they quit thriving. They had normal siblings.

  232. The point of the Iceland sudy, I think, is that being a little related is the most optimal way to do things- too close bad, not very close, not optimal.

  233. dizzy deci duane is again setting up strawmen by saying the government is going to get involved with the flds FD issue and a smokescreen by saying “we” should also go after the amish. The we probably refers to him and his dog. No one else has suggested that “we” go after the flds. Normal troll tactics.

  234. WC,

    How’s that working for you????

  235. “Good notes on odds – BTW did you see my post where one family had 8 (Eight – count em) FD children?

    It can go both ways”

    How many other children did they have, 24? We are talking about the FLDS, now.

  236. “WC,

    How’s that working for you????”

    Just fine, thanks.

  237. Also, wouldn’t rabbits and mice have a lower critical threshold than species that don’t reproduce as much per parent?

  238. ale wife,

    Yup. Also, he didn’t go very far back in the conversation, because he is proposing stuff that has already been argued once today.

    I’ve learned today that most of the FLDS probably do NOT understand the genetics of FD and are not making an informed choice. Until they do, they will probably continue to suffer from this very sad situation. And it seems pretty obvious to me that unless they bring in new blood, they will die out. The thing that is not natural about this genetic problem is that the isolation of their genes is by choice, not by necessity.

    As far as the Iceland study goes, I find that surprising on the face of it, but would have to read the article/get more information about the study to form an opinion. One thing that springs to mind is “define success”.

  239. WC wrote “How many other children did they have, 24?”

    24 is quite a lot for one woman. Remember, this is about genetics, not about celestial whatevers.

    The point is that if you can roll 5 tails in a row, you can also roll 5 heads in a row. The chance of having a boy is only slightly more than even with having a girl, but families can be all boys or all girls.

  240. WC

    “How many others did they have, 24?”

    From one family? This means the mother bore 32 children? Or are you saying a guy had 4 wives and 8 FD children among them?

    Either way, there is cause for grave concern. How many stillbirths / miscarriages?

    I think its bad enough where there needs to be studies and tests. Otherwise its like a fire, and it already is out of control.

    Yes I wonder what happens to the FD children born at YFZ. Its a valid concern.

    Or maybe as a society we should just not care and let the crap fall where it may?

    I say thats been happening too far too long.

  241. Betty
    Yes, the flds seem to have a strong case of fatalism. If something bad happens it is due to God, unbelief, etc. Therefore you just don’t worry about seat belts, speeding or marrying a close relative which greatly increases the chances of children being born with a horrific birth defect. Kind of the ultimate in being absolved of all self responsibility. It is due to God or the prophet commanded it.

  242. WC

    The problem with the Iceland project, is it cant and wont be applied to the FLDS, so no, it HASNT been working for you.

    Warren mixes and matches with abandon, any way there is no society out there who would follow a eugenics program as you hint at.

    If you are using that as an excuse for inbreeding relatives, its a piss poor excuse, as the FLDS have already slipped down the slope of inbreeding, with half the population carrying a genetic time bomb.

    These genes will be carried down through centuries, the YFZ children carry them, the genes will never be eliminated, unless Science can find a way to excise it somehow.

    Its a pretty big issue and NO its not working for you, its working against you. . .

  243. ale wife,

    That runs counter to how I read the bible. The whole book of Job seems to me to address that bad things happen to good people and trails are not a judgement from God. There are other examples. I guess this is one of those “cultural” things.

  244. Been catching up on reading. WC’s really dumb, isn’t he?

  245. Which reminds me ale wife.

    People looking at the peculiarly dressed flds is proof that they are special.

    It has nothing to do with the fact they wear long sleeves and hign necklines on their dresses while wearing hiking boots in 110 degree heat – its just proof they are special!

  246. Well, anon, at least WC admitted he didnt know why Wisan is in charge of the UEP.

    I consider that a first step, making it worthy of further dialogue.

    But suggesting that marrying third cousins is the way to go, in light of the genetic train wreck they are in, is kinda scary.

    I find it hard to believe that social services pays to maintain said afflicted children while giving the FLDS no support on how to stop it.

  247. And proud of it, too, Anon.

  248. ICELAND said marrying your 3rd cousin was the way to go, they also say rotten shark meat is a delicacy. I agree with the former, I’ve never had the latter.

  249. Iceland also has a very high rate of alcoholics and a high suicide rate. But I think that’s the weather, not the genetics. I’ve been there. It’s basically a volcanic rock in the Arctic ocean with a lot of Vikings living on it.

  250. WC

    Too bad for the FLDS, all their third cousins may have the FD gene too.

    The flds should have been better prepared in 1925.

    Oh wait they didnt have the internet back then, they just started inbreeding away, look where it got them.

    A very scary place!

    PS how many FD children do you know about?

  251. All I know is what I get off the internet.

  252. Icelandic wool and sweaters are awesome. How about that Icelandic wool? Yup. Nice stuff.

  253. And now for something completely different…

    Is it unusual to hold statements for a real, high profile court case in a college setting? That seems passing odd to me.

  254. WC

    Well, you dont know much then, do you?

    Thinkin 3rd marriage cousins are the way to go, but forgetting to check your FD genes and your socks.

    Truth is, the FD gene is alive and well in all FLDS compounds, moving from state to state doesnt lose it.

    Just a word of advice, that you read on the internet.

    You could also email Iceland for confirmation.

  255. Betty,

    I am suspicious and confounded at the irony of it.

    After all, we all know what Brigham Young was all about.

    Will there be a 13th juror?

  256. With 5 kids odds of having 1 or less of one sex: 18.75%

    6 kids: 10.93%

    (assumes 50% probability at birth)

  257. Stamp

    You’re right in that whether there was one or two people with the recessive gene, it would still multiply with inbreeding.

    However when two have the gene it greatly multiplies the effect. When two people have the gene 2 out of 3 surviving children are carriers of the gene.

  258. Wait, wait, wait ….

    All that Icelandic study says is that couples with the same great-great-grandparents have more children than non-related couples. It says nothing about whether those children are healthy or have genetic defects.

    If you think about it, people who share collateral relatives will likely produce more children since they share a support system.

    The study says nothing about either fertility rates or success rates for the pregnancies.

  259. All I know is what I get off the internet.

    =============================

    http://comics.com/the_born_loser/2008-03-02/

  260. OK before you go marrying your cousin you’d best consider this study which says that having a cousin with endometriosis raises a woman’s risk by over 50%.

    Hmmm, maybe that’s why I almost drown in that lake that averaged 3 feet deep.

  261. Their were only 12 cases worldwide in 1990 when Tarby discovered there were children in Flds who also had Fumarese Disease.. After that point,, and testing the children, this is how they discovered it WAS fumarese disease.
    The genticists who were working with the children affilcted with this disease are the ones who discovered there were 20 cases of fumarase alone in the Flds community. These children were going to Flagstaff to be treated for the symptoms they have, because there is NO cure.

  262. It would be a different situation if Flds han’t been told by genticists they need to marry into new blood to stop the continuing mutation of the gene and bringing more children into the world with Fumarese disease.. But they WERE told in by the genetisists themselves what was causing this horrible afflication of the children.

    If someone told me, my and husband and I a gene that if we had children they would be severely deformed, in pain, have horrible seizures, never grow mentally past the age of a 2yr old, you think I would do that to a baby and have children?????
    HELL NO!!!!

  263. cement
    Haha!
    The internet can be teh equivalent of the bathroom wall

  264. Concerning children with FD, that’s all almost anyone knows.

  265. Well Betty, The flds have a very peculiar culture, also a very strange and scary culture.

  266. WC

    You seem comfortable marrying cousins, but not concerned about the continued birth defects that would arise from such a union?

  267. Also WC

    I guess the FLDS shouldnt be concerned, because Warren said that you shouldnt use the internet to research such things.

    So its there to learn but you cant go there. Well, maybe YOU, but not everybody lives at your house do they?

    They are still monitering them back at the crick, and of course any computer at YFZ. But if you live away from there, you might actually learn something.

    Well, two points for you if you learn. Perhaps you can let the others know.

  268. Flds know, Tarby and Aleck has a meeting in the creek with Flds members about Fumarese, explained , told them how, why, the ways to prevent it.

  269. I realized why WC has trouble accepting that both parents have to carry the gene for it to appear. In the FLDS, I bet it’s blamed on the sins of the mother, because the father has healthy children with other wives.

  270. Well, I think that those who believe that the end is near will have a tendency to not be concerned with long term problems.

  271. Well, 3 out of 4 children are healthy in such a union and would not experience life without the sacrifice of their sister/brother with the disease. How will God weigh that in the balance after this life? Oh, I forgot. Your idea is to kill them all. Forget I asked.

  272. “Your idea is to kill them all. ”

    I didn’t say that; I haven’t heard anyone today say that. I read that some health officials suggested that, but I did not remark on that.

    My idea is to marry outside of your family group to start with. Especially, do not marry anyone who is in that genetic line. Marry outside those families, and there will be other, healthy children.

    I asked this earlier, but no one responded. Some fundamentalist groups deliberately recruit outside their own for spouses for just this reason (and also to supplement the supply of women). When did the FLDS stop taking in converts or marrying outside the group? When did they forbid anyone to marry outside the group?

  273. Actually, that was to Stamp, not you Betty. and technically I don’t know your stands on abortion, but that is what general mainstream america says to do with deformed fetuses that parents do not want to raise.

  274. “Well, 3 out of 4 children are healthy in such a union and would not experience life without the sacrifice of their sister/brother with the disease.”

    This statement really disturbs me. An infant does not make a sacrifice. An infant just experiences the consequences of the parent’s actions. It’s innocent and without choice in the matter.

  275. Well, 3 out of 4 children are healthy in such a union

    Well, that’s not exactly correct either…

    3 out of 4 don’t die from FD. 2 out of 3 survivors carry the gene to pass onto future generations. Out of the survivors the incidence of tumors (both benign and malignant) and renal cell cacrcinoma is increased.

  276. WC
    The God I believe in would say, Why did you delibertly intermarry when I told you NOT TO!!!!
    I don’t believe in abortion WC, but I sure believe in prevention. All the children with Fumarese disease could have been born without it, had their parents NOT intermarried.

  277. WC

    “Well, 3 out of 4 children are healthy in such a union and would not experience life without the sacrifice of their sister/brother with the disease. How will God weigh that in the balance after this life? Oh, I forgot. Your idea is to kill them all. Forget I asked.”

    =============================

    Oh, there it is, the Pliggy argument. “If child molesting laws are enforced the little girls wont have the babies God wants them to have and besides, I wouldnt be here”…

    SORRY

    BZZZT

    Having children in the face of illegal or plain irresponsible activity isnt sanctioned by God or anyone else.

    Be legal, be responsible, have a family. But you mix up illegal relationships with immoral behavior, see what you get?

    MONSTERS

    Thats just “One More Reason” polygamy will never be legalized.

    You cant even police your own irresponsibilities. You create suffering and abuse. You are hereby forevermore an illegal group.

    And no one is out to kill you, get off your high horse. People want to save you not harm you.

    You guys do a bang up job harming yourselves.

  278. I suspect that if the men in the FLDS had to bear and care for these poor children the way the women do, that they would change this practice. But if one wife is grieving from a still born child or exhausted from caring for a sick one, the husband can just walk on down the hallway to the next door. Makes it easy for him to think lightly of the whole thing.

  279. WC, your in denial bubba!

  280. Betty

    Makes ya wonder what goes throwgh a plyggers mind when his child cant talk, cant walk and cant go to the bathroom.

    How many of them pull a Richard Cooke?

  281. Here!!! Here!!! Betty!!

  282. This Tarby guy said to “outbreed”, but if the object was to avoid FD, genetic testing and counseling in the group would work. Tarby is just parroting what he’s been told.

  283. Issac Wyler said his sister in law has 4 children with fumarese disesae WC.

  284. Ron, those tumors are due to somatic mutations in the gene. Carriers of the FD gene are not predisposed to those things.

  285. WC

    Whats interesting, is there are stories of the FLDS killing their handicapped children.

    Think of the uproar if someone in LE killed a handicapped FLDS child.

    Where are the other FD children?

    furnace? behind the clinic? In the desert? We do the math, they are being born.

    What do the FLDS do with them anyway? Whats the current fairytale?

    Warren tell ya this would stop in Texas?

  286. WC Tarby discovered it first,, then sent the children’s blood to a genetic testing center in Arizona. He isn’t guessing, he has treated the children till he retired in 2007! Counseling what??
    The two genetisists met with FLDS community and told them what they needed to do to stop or prevent it from happening.

  287. Elaine Jeffs, warrens sister said she personally saw a baby smothered to death.

  288. Well, if his sister in law doesn’t want anymore, then stop having children- why are you telling me about it. My point is that it is the perogative of the FLDS to have children, and I have not heard of any complaining to my knowledge of FD children, and if they are happy with their families, I say they are pretty blessed. I know of alot of unhappy healthy families.

  289. I don’t know your stands on abortion

    You know, it really doesn’t matter what your stand on abortion, a child with FD will die an early death. They will not make it to puberty where they could even consider their options.

    There is an ethical question of whether the “right” thing to do is to bring a life into the world that suffer and die early. However, nothing prevents the parents from getting genetic testing and perhaps adopting a child that won’t suffer an early death.

    However, I guess adopting a child does nothing to populate the “priesthood.”

  290. WC, No, Tarby is talking common sense based on an understanding of genetics and basic math. Genetic testing and counseling is not going to thin out the percentages. Are you suggesting that the ones who test positive should never marry and die off? Or are you suggesting a very careful and deliberate breeding plan that goes on for generations to come? I would think it would be easier to send out missionaries and have them come back with wives, myself.

  291. WC,, in the United States, Im sorry, but NO you can’t just do whatever you want to if your breaking the law.

  292. Amen, Ron. “However, I guess adopting a child does nothing to populate the “priesthood.””

    I don’t think this is a thing that can be addressed by law. But I do think it’s unethical and fundamentally (sic) selfish.

  293. WC

    “This Tarby guy said to “outbreed”, but if the object was to avoid FD, genetic testing and counseling in the group would work. Tarby is just parroting what he’s been told.”

    ———–

    Tarby is a DOCTOR WC.

    I think he said there should be testing and counseling. However due3 to the high number of FD positive adults, out breeding would be necessary to continue normal families.

    Currently, that is happening to a certain extent, the flds lost boys have left and if they marry most will outbreed, but the danger remains, as the gene just spreads and children and grandchildren will meet and do what happens.

    With the FLDS keeping up the high birth rate (artificially by Govt enabling, WIC etc) there will be more and more incidences of the gene in the general population.

  294. Tarby is just parroting what he’s been told.

    Geez, you’re such a dumb a$$. Tarby is explaining the science behind what is happening. You’re the idiot who is parroting what’s he’s been told.

  295. I wonder what the FLDS believe happens to the infertile? Men, women?

  296. Well, the guy in Arkansa who was gunned doown was performing partial late term abortions of healthy babies after they were partly birthed, he terminated them. One actually lived, was treated at an emergency room, and lived to to about 9 years old but was paralyzed in her face where they injected the KCL to try and kill her.

    Trust me, the horror stories that you guys come up with in the FLDS pale in comparison to mainstream America- and it’s all legal.

  297. It must be the water in UT and those other intermountain states.

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13342597

    “Roughly three dozen members of The Church of the Firstborn and General Assembly of Heaven moved to a home on Reservation Road from Utah earlier this summer, the Idaho State Journal reported.
    According to its Web site, the sect was started by Terrill Dalton, who was excommunicated from the Mormon church and now claims to be the Holy Ghost.”

  298. Being irresponsible when it comes to parenting, doesn’t fall on the prophet WC, but each individual who marries a relative, its that person’s responsibility to say NO!! Because Flds have been TOLD several years ago what would keep happening, if they continue on this path with intermarrying.

  299. Well, I take that back about late term abortions being all legal.

  300. “My point is that it is the perogative of the FLDS to have children, and I have not heard of any complaining to my knowledge of FD children, and if they are happy with their families, I say they are pretty blessed.”

    The ones who complain are called “Lying Apostates”. Circular logic.

  301. WC,,, abortion is legal in the United States!
    I personally don’t believe in it. But it isn’t illegal.

    Intermarrying relatives is ILLEGAL>

  302. WC

    “and I have not heard of any complaining to my knowledge of FD children, ”

    Why, of course not! If the children are taken out with the trash when they are born, who is complaining?

    Certainly not the victim child – its dead.

    And NO once again its not the FLDS perogative to pump out defected children with child brides.

    They broke too many rules, even if the states dont give a flying flip about the genetic time bomb or murdered babies, they are getting stuffed in prison and for good reason.

    Someday more about FD will surface – its too late today, in 5 years it’ll be much worse.

  303. WC what you are defending is babies having babies!! A 12 to 16yr old girl is still a baby herself! Why do you think Flds girls underage had so many still births, or misscarried?

  304. Trust me, the horror stories that you guys come up with in the FLDS pale in comparison to mainstream America- and it’s all legal.

    Oh, I’ll bet you can find stories that are the same. The difference is that in “mainstream America” such atrocities are condemned while in the FLDS they are sanctioned by “God” through the “prophet.” (Or should I say “profit?”)

  305. Actually, deputydog, late term abortions are illegal in my state.

    I always get annoyed when someone counters with how bad mainstream America is and then mentions something that is statistically uncommon.

  306. Ron

    Eggsactly!

    What other group in America is pushing polygamy with teen brides to old geezers?

    Oh yeah Tom Green, he got busted.

    Alamo -Busted

    Travessor -Busted

    Jones -Busted

    Koresh -Busted

    Yahweh Hawkins -Busted

  307. Ron, I am so tired of correcting you’re a$$ I’m not even going to explain all of what is wrong with your defense of Tarby.

  308. Wrong again, Ron, the atrocities you speak of are encouraged in
    America, not condemned.

    There, I’m done correcting your hick comments for the day.

  309. Tarby told the FLDS what they need to do.

    They wont do it.

    The flds are screwed.

    What else is there to tell?

  310. WC

    I guess you’re tired of those pesky things called “facts.” Tarby is just explaining what happens in the real world and not in the world where having child brides makes you a God in some fantasy celestial kingdom.

    Generally, I think abortion should be avoided, but hearing your arguments makes me reconsider my position.

  311. Child molestation, incest, late term abortion (outside true emergencies) are all condemned.

    Yet those sins seem to be the grease that keeps the FLDS machine going, all empowered by the local poo poo head doody hat.

  312. That was redundant for effect. He is warming the sheets right now, hope he is comfy.

  313. “The disease itself is very rare in the rest of the world,” said Dr. Vinodh Narayanan of Arizona’s St. Joseph’s Hospital & Medical Center and Barrow Neurological Institute. Doctors worldwide had only studied about 10 cases just a decade ago.

    “Once you get people within in the same community marrying, then the chances grow of having two people carrying the exact same mutation.”
    Dr. Leslie Biesecker, chief of the Genetic Disease Research Branch at the National Institutes of Health, said the bad gene could have been introduced after the original founding families settled there. “Any person who joined that community could have brought that mutation with them,” he said.

    Tarby, who has recently retired, said he first observed the problem when an FLDS couple came to a Phoenix clinic about 15 years ago with a 10-year-old boy suffering from a degenerative condition. He sent a urine sample to a lab in Colorado for analysis and was stunned by the diagnosis. WC, you idiot, it wasn’t Just ONE doctor or genetisist!

  314. SMILE! Your’e on CANDID CAMEEERRAAAA!!

  315. In the disorder, brain cells fail to receive enough fuel to grow, multiply and function properly because of a missing enzyme needed to generate energy from food, causing severe mental retardation and muscle control problems.

  316. He is warming the sheets right now, hope he is comfy.

    Well, I suppose that depends on whether the feeding tube is in place or not.

  317. Oh yeah, what are the choices for dinner,

    SPAM

    OR

    Liquified SPAM?

  318. Nothing like a SPAM Smoothie going down your throat in a tube.

    Warrens gotta get some of that every few weeks I reckon.

    Didja see the candid camera pic of Warren I posted, the day he got busted?

    Rumor has it, he’s lost weight, and he didnt have much to spare to begin with.

  319. Well that was a virtual avalanche of facts and information and I could still see WC holding up his/her middle finger until it disappeared under a mountain of data. Guess dumb comes to the mountain to be buried in evidence and not succumb to any proof. Ron I just love your ‘hick comments’ which most readers here refer as “Facts”.

    I hope the Ski Patrol can dig out ‘WC’ before any frostbite.

  320. Yes, the avalanche of bull$hit was formidable, but I dug my way out.

  321. The FLDS and fundamental mormonism are here to stay, just get used to it. All the twisting of facts, pictures posted, and lies that you guys propagate are not going to change that fact. I hate to see your little crusade against the truth end here with a statement by little WC, but that’s hwo it is.

  322. WC , we can document what we say, you haven’t documented ONE word you have spouted!

  323. Someone wants to be a fundementalist WC, I don ‘t give a rats ass, but by God they better NOT break laws of sexual assualt, fraud, laundering money, killing innocent babies!!!

  324. A terd with a certificate of authenticity is still a terd, DD.

  325. My crusade is against little girls being sexually assualted and being PUT in arranged marriages by some Forest Gump wanna be prophet, and the ADULT parents allowing it to happen..

  326. And F** you WC,,, when the next child is sexually assaulted, it can be ON YOUR shoulders!

  327. And take hair brain, Alinusara with you!

  328. Who’s warming the sheets?

  329. Im sure Medvecky will have them nice and toasty for you WC!

  330. And it was nice talking with you, too.

  331. WC, my wish is that every ADULT MALE in Flds who has agreed and sexually raped one of those little girls, is that thier penis falls off!!

  332. Look for a longer stay than you originally may have planned like 5 Years to Life, with no prospects of parole in a Texas penitentiary. Once the convictions add up to the RICO Act trigger and Mann Act are invoked, even more arrests and cases will be brought to Justice. At some point there will be the real come to meeting planned and the Law and Order will prevail. Canada is soon to weigh in on this issue and they have signed International Agreement(s) that must be conformed to or they will be in breach, so good luck on that front. U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) is fully alerted to the trafficking in Child Brides at the international borders in Canada/Mexico. Seems your new days dawning and your defiant tone will need some adjusting to conform to our laws, now that the criminal intent is more fully displayed.

  333. So where are we all wrong? If one is pure enough in thought then God will fix their genetics?

  334. O that was funny, the dumb hick calling someone else a hick!

  335. Er isn’t that hare brain, as in like uh jackrabbits?

  336. Maybe this has already been said–there is some other disease lurking other than fumarase that will inevitably come out from close marrying.

  337. WC

    Yeah the FLDS lifestyle will live on in the form of the FD gene and prison inmates.

    Quite the legacy for a bunch of uppity supremacists.

    Kind of like Phillip Garrido, just much creepier and with a sinister genetic disease to pass down to the grand kids over the generations.

  338. I wonder what they will do with the YFX temple when its repo’d by crediors.

    Maybe a cheese and soap factory, with dress making in the basement?

  339. er no banjo,, its hair brain as in alinusara has hair for brains.

  340. I see we got a little excited while I was gone.

  341. HA HAHA!!! YES we did!! 🙂

  342. I spent most of my day at work watching you guys kick ass!! My work computer doesn’t allow me to pull up the web site, but I kept up via email updates…[75 or so of them!] Thanks for making my work day so much more enjoyable! I MAY get some work done tomorrow, but I’ll be keeping on this, thats fer sure!!

  343. BOOTS THIS IS FOR YOU MY FRIEND!

    UN says death of 12-year-old Yemeni girl underscores urgent need to prevent child marriages
    Bureau News
    September 14th, 2009

    UN says Yemeni child bride’s death is tragedy

    UNITED NATIONS — The head of the U.N. children’s agency said Monday that the tragic death of a 12-year-old Yemeni after three days in labor underscores the urgent need to better protect the rights of girls and prevent child marriages.

    Fawziya Abdullah Youssef died of severe bleeding on Friday while giving birth to a stillborn child in the al-Zahra district hospital of Hodeida province, 140 miles (223 kilometers) west of the capital San’a. Youssef was only 11 when her father married her to a 24-year-old man who works as a farmer in Saudi Arabia, Ahmed al-Quraishi, chairman of the Siyaj human rights organization, said Saturday.

    UNICEF Executive Director Ann Veneman expressed sadness at Fawziya’s untimely death.

    “Child marriage denies girls of their childhood, deprives them of an education and robs them of their innocence,” she said in a statement.

    Child marriages are widespread in Yemen, the Arab world’s poorest country, where tribal customs dominate society. More than a quarter of the country’s females marry before age 15, according to a recent report by the Social Affairs Ministry.

    In February, Yemen’s parliament passed a law setting the minimum marriage age at 17. But some lawmakers are trying to kill the measure, calling it un-Islamic. Before it could be ratified by Yemen’s president, they forced it to be sent back to parliament’s constitutional committee for review.

    Veneman said “the younger the girl is when she becomes pregnant, the greater the health risks for her and her baby.”

    Girls who give birth before the age of 15 are five times more likely to die in childbirth than women in their 20s, she said.

    “Tragedies like these underscore the urgent need to better protect the rights of women and children, particularly girls,” Veneman said. “Child marriages are often a result of poverty and ignorance. More must be done to address the underlying causes in order to prevent tragic deaths like those of 12-year-old Fawziya and her baby.”

  344. But anon

    Its like WC says, without sacrificing a few 12 yr olds, think of the babies that wont be born!

  345. WC

    “A terd with a certificate of authenticity is still a terd”

    ==============

    Thas a good way to think of Uncle Warren.

  346. WC

    “Yes, the avalanche of bull$hit was formidable, but I dug my way out.”

    ==============

    Hardly, you are too busy fixin batches of koolaide, and sampling your product.

  347. cement

    Stubborn headedness? Or what else?

  348. A terd with a certificate of authenticity is still a terd

    Yeah, and a terd with the magical priesthood keys is still a terd too.

  349. A terd warming the prison bunk sheets is a warm terd.

  350. But anon

    Its like WC says, without sacrificing a few 12 yr olds, think of the babies that wont be born!

    ==============================
    If you want to increase the population of the earth, you don’t do it by having 50 children. You do it by learning how to better use earth’s resources, so the people with 2-3 children that are researching nuclear power, waste management, recycling, irrigation, farming techniques, better manufacturing techniques, are helping to bring in more spirits to earth than the FLDS are with large families.

    And I think it the most selfish attitude imaginable to say “spirits are waiting in line wanting bodies; we got to bring as many to earth as quick as possible and make certain our group gets them to prevent them from being born into the world.”

  351. I didn’t know you guys would like that so much, but it stands to reason.

  352. I guess WC (does that stand for Water Closet)

    you think its ok to have a 25% birth defect rate for the sake of 3 other children.

    So a plig like Warren has 100 wives and 400 children, 100 of which are born defective? Who is taking care of his 100 birth defects?

    His 100 prison widows?

    Who will mate with his wives now that he is gone forever, in a little Al Gore lock box?

  353. cement

    yes that is really strange, especially when they figure 25% failure rate is acceptable.

    When did this doctrine sink in anyway?

  354. Why don’t you ask the 3 other children?

  355. cement,

    I sometimes wonder if the whole purpose of FLDS culture is to make them all as miserable as possible. Misery does not equal righteousness.

  356. Hmmm the 3 other children are behind a fence and locked gate, passed from daddy to daddy, they dont even know who the real daddy is, cuz the sheeples say that man is evil cuz Warren said so.

    BTW how is YFZ, or do ya know, will they let you back in?

    Contaminated yet?

  357. Betty

    Misery is one thing.

    Fumarase Deficiency is horrific.

  358. WC said “Why don’t you ask the 3 other children?”

    I think those who watched the disease up close would testify to how horrible it is.

    And besides, you are setting up a false choice. You are suggesting that either you kill babies or you let them live even though some of them may suffer. I am suggesting that with knowledge, compassion and a slight change in your policies, you could have plenty of healthy babies. There are other mormon polgynist groups, even some fairly close geographically. Why not develop a bride exchange program with some group that was close enough to be culturally similar but far enough away genetically to not carry the disease? Like your third cousin concept, but a little more generalized. Kind of cross tribe (as in Israelite).

  359. Oh yeah those other three children?

    Susan was knocked up

    Robert was run over

    William was kicked out

    Up, over, and out.

  360. Well WC

    Seems Bill and Pliggy (diesel) say you are living in Amarillo, TX – yes you must be one of the Contaminated ones, a YFZ denizen gone loose from the flock.

    Well hay at least you got email and the internet, but does YFZ?

    Amazing how silent they are when locked up behind those fences and gates.

    Too bad there are so many cops in Amarillo huh, better keep your nose clean!

    Betcha they got your number. Did you know they have a sethnet in town too? Only its run by the cops not Seth!

  361. Stamp, I thought, “Up, Over and Out” was the watchword of the enclave children at the YFZ, Mancos and Pringle. They are being forced to reside in fenced gulags with watchtowers and surveillance equipment all installed for their protection, Right?

  362. cement,

    You said something about a newly identified genetic problem. No, I have not heard anything about that.

  363. I did not; I said it is inevitable that one will become newly discovered if you continue inbreeding.

  364. My point was, even if fumarase didn’t exist, another genetic illness will eventually surface.

  365. Ah, I get it. Thanks for clarifying.

  366. For those that know my real name, I am not using my usual name for this post. Pardon me, admin.

    One thousand years from now, interracial marriages may be the best thing that happened to the human race. The offspring from those marriages may be the healthiest genetically.

  367. If you read about the mapping of human ancestry through DNA, humans are already pretty mixed – anything else is an illusion of appearance.

  368. I will draw the line at interracial marriages. I won’t claim adultery is good for us genetically.

  369. There is a huge difference between marrying someone of a different race or color and marrying your uncle, or first cousin.

  370. anon

    America is a melting pot – not only lots of interracial but lots of mixing of European nations…. I think that most Americans that have been here a few generations will find a mix in their background as I do, as well most of the folks I know.

    I would even guess that the FLDS have benefited from diversity to a degree, IE they are not all from the same small village in Ireland, for example.

    That said they have their own small village of circular genetics developed, which has propagated and expanded a devastating genetic disease, and yes probably others, however I dont think they could ever be as bad as FD.

  371. “I will draw the line at interracial marriages. I won’t claim adultery is good for us genetically.”

    Interracial marriages = adultery????

  372. Too late. We’re already descended from Africans.

    https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/index.html

  373. Spain and southern Italy both have lots of North African blood because of Moorish occupation.

  374. Add to that, the genome trail leads north out of Africa right through Iraq and Iran before going further north and hooking back into Europe.

  375. Sorry, I meant that while I have no problem with interracial marriages, I do have a problem with adultery. I believe interracial marriages are necessary for our genetic survival, but adultery isn’t.

  376. Woa, woa, woa; I have never done adultery. That sentence didn’t come out right.

  377. OK, anon. I’m generally in agreement.

    Stamp, another one went into Central Asia and then from there into Europe by another route. So there are black people and Scandinavians who share ancestors with MONGOLS. Really amazing.

  378. Can ANYONE tell me why the AG of Utah has decided to have Warren Jeffs oral agrument for appeal to the Utah Supreme Court at BYU?

  379. I don'[t know if that was the decision of the AG or of the supremes.

  380. The Supremes would be the ones that made that decision. However, it’s pretty common for courts to have some affiliation with law schools. In Houston the 1st and 14th Courts of Appeal share a building with South Texas College of Law.

  381. Valerie Jeffs Mackert (Warren Jeffs sister) was sexually abused by Warren and his brother lyle growing up. She married a mackert, but left flds, and couldn’t deal with outside world and ended up dead.
    Where is the outrage of these things happening????

  382. Ron, I understand a state supported school. I don’t understand a religion supported school.

  383. “It’s all her fault because she apostatized. See the fruits of apostacy, my daughter. You don’t want that, do you!”

  384. How did she die? They say that her inability to adjust lead to her death. That sounds like either suicide or she did not know how to get medical attention.

  385. Deputy Dog I think it’s crazy that the supreme court is hearing WJ’s appeal at BYU. I haven’t heard anything about why they think it’s the best place for the hearing. Perhaps the Court doesn’t want a flocking of FLDS members in downtown SLC again.

  386. Paula Mackert

    Paula is the mother of six living children, she has endured nine miscarriages in a row, and losing an infant daughter to SIDS; all this while she has struggled to function with an IQ of 63. Not only has she gone through life with mental limitations, but her last two children are even more limited. She has endured a sister wife and husband who failed to assist her in caring for her children, and then they initiated her children being taken from her by way of Child Protective Services. She has been severely neglected, lacking necessary medical care for skin cancer, as well as dental issues, mental health issues, and the basic medications she requires. At times she was even denied food.

  387. WEBBIE- there is a very interesting article in Texas Monthly. texasmonthly.com

  388. Thanks for the heads up anon, but I think that read like a Readers Digest story.

    The real world craziness and abuses occuring in the sect just dont shine through very well.

    Someone needs to see the photos of Warren molesting 12 yr old girls with deep kisses before they can start to see the real picture.

  389. Told you it all came from the TOP!!!! PERRY, Michael Levitt Head of the Unites States health and human services… Levitt is a mormon, what the hell do you expect???

  390. Well the article gives a clearer picture of the fact, there were definitely many abuses, and those in Charge higher up, were more concerned about their political career than childrens lives.

  391. Its called “saving your ass for election purposes”

    Sucks don’t it!!!

  392. Pretty damn disappointing.

  393. Wow, from that texasmonthly article:

    From Jeff’s dictations:
    ***
    A document that Childress had not seen but was obtained by TEXAS MONTHLY appears to be instructions for the construction of a similar bed. It describes a bed “covered with a sheet, but it will have a plastic cover to protect the mattress from what will happen on it.”
    ***

  394. “Other evidence raised more questions.

    There was the disparity in the ratio of teenage girls to teenage boys, for example. No one could explain why, in the twelve-to-seventeen-year age group, there were almost twice as many girls as boys.

    And then there was the white bed. Investigators’ photographs taken in the YFZ Ranch temple show an adult-size bed with railings that appear to fold up like a crib’s.

    On the bed’s rumpled linens, investigators said they had found a long hair. A document that Childress had not seen but was obtained by TEXAS MONTHLY appears to be instructions for the construction of a similar bed.

    It describes a bed “covered with a sheet, but it will have a plastic cover to protect the mattress from what will happen on it.”

    It also described “padded sides that can be pulled up that will hold me in place as the Lord does His work with me.” What in the world was going on here?”

    http://www.texasmonthly.com/2009-10-01/feature2-4.php

    ———————–

    Seems like not only did Warren thin the herd of young males, he wanted the temple bed prepped so he could have his way, and let there be no question of his intent.

    He wanted blood on the wedding night, expected it, and wanted to keep the rape bed clean so he could use it over and over and over.

    But to follow yesterdays storyline, the only sheets he is warming are in the small cells of various prison and correctional facilities.

    While he is wearing his fashionable liquid SPAM feeding tube.

  395. either that or blood atonement

  396. I’m with Stamp on this one. It’s for consummating and the steps are for witnesses. He thought that his sexual acts were linked to his visions.

  397. DD

    Doncha remember, blood atonement victims need their blood to spill upon the earth.

    At least thats the story line I remember. I dont think Ervil LeBaron wasn’t so picky as to ensure that happened though, I mean shooting his crony and a little girl in their pickup truck didnt fulfill the deed as prescribed.

    It was just nasty murder.

  398. “I [am] opposed to hanging, even if a man kill another, I will shoot him, or cut off his head, spill his blood on the ground, and let the smoke thereof ascend up to God; and if ever I have the privilege of making a law on that subject, I will have it so.”

    – Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 5, p. 296, 1949

    “[My life was in danger] if I remained there, because of my protest against the doctrine of Blood Atonement and other new doctrines that were brought into the Church.”

    – Apostle William Smith, brother of Joseph Smith, Jr., Temple Lot Case, p. 98

    “I will tell you how much I love those characters. If they had any respect to their own welfare, they would come forth and say, whether Joseph Smith was a Prophet or not, ‘We shed his blood, and now let us atone for it;’ and they would be willing to have their heads chopped off, that their blood might run upon the ground, and the smoke of it rise before the Lord as an incense for their sins.”

    – Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 2, p. 179, February 18, 1855

    ———————————

    http://www.ils.unc.edu/~unsworth/mormon/bloodatonement.html

  399. Yeah, but I don’t think that’s what the bed is about. Otherwise why is Warren worried about falling out of it without the side rails?

  400. The smoke and incense from atoned blood on the ground is pretty spooky stuff.

    I never read any of that in any version of the bible ever printed.

    What does the smoke and incense from blood spilled from a little girl in a pickup truck do?

  401. Maybe in Warrens vision he gets kicked in the Oysters when he tries to get fresh.

    Remember, he creeps the women out, none of them enjoy party time with sir Clown.

  402. People need to quit being so damn pure that they can’t bathe with their wife and start leaving young girls alone.

  403. I personally believe the thinking is that as long as you are clothed, it’s OK regardless of age.

  404. cement

    I think Warren is getting purer by the day, the good old days are but a memory and he looks forward to a life of celibacy, unless he has Bubba in his future, and in that case he might lose his pureness, getting sealed that way just aint what he is used to!

  405. cement

    I dunno…. Merril wore his jammies all the time and Carolyn never saw him naked. They had eight kids.

  406. Did y’all note that by far most of the ‘President’s Record’ has been withheld for evidence in the coming trials and Warren’s Bishop Record at the YFZ Ranch doesn’t give his plural wives and children, yet at trial to be revealed.

  407. “The people of Utah are the only ones in this nation who have taken effectual measures… to prevent adulteries and criminal connections between the sexes. The punishment, for these crimes is death to both male and female. And this law is written on the hearths and printed in the thoughts of the whole people.”

    – Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 223

    ===============

    Interesting, Pratt took another mans wife as his own, and not the first either, and eventually Pratts blood was spilled upon the actual earth, (by the husband) kinda ironic.

  408. CaJim

    Wont it be an education for the folks of Texas.!?!?

    Say, I read that article and while there are so many funny things in the dictations, if they posted only that, I think they made a good choice.

    Who would deny its a rape bed for virgins now? Too bad the TM didnt actually draw the mental picture like I did. Too chicken? Too PC?

    Another one they could have put in the article is that “Shortcreek (The UEP) and the FLDS who REMAIN there are “REJECTED OF GOD”” which is a real eye opener.

    Just ta let Texans know, there might be ten times the flds coming than they have this year.

    Yanno, go from 800 peeps to 8,000?

    sobering thought, Texas! Say, GOT FD?

    Article forgot to mention that pesky business too.

    So many crimes, so little time!

  409. OOPS I was thinking of Parley Pratt.

    Orson helped Parley escape prison though, too bad life was rougher on the outside.

  410. CaJim

    Maybe next year we will have a “Condensed Journal of Warrenisms” to refer to, as a primer for such unbelievers as duane and sister Cupcake.

    Oh, and for LE too.

  411. Heah, that’s Sister Mary Cupcake to you, Bub!

    Stamp sure will be nice to be at trial and focused and talking about the indicted probable felons, since they are the accused. Seems the CPS, Courts, Judges, Law Enforcement and Apostates have been the ones on trial of late?

  412. WE TV on the FLDS coming up again soon –

    Polygamy Cult Tuesday, September 29 at 9pm | 8c

    The Secret Lives of Women

  413. My link didn’t work.

    The Secret Lives of Women

  414. I was just watching Frank Schaeffer,on TV. He wrote “Crazy for God”. Now I haven’t read it,but he talked about being raised in an Evangelical sub culture where the children are taught from birth,and through home schooling, to accept religion over science or reason. He later refers to them as “Living in LALA land, waiting on hilltops for God to return”.
    It was interesting that alot of what he talked about fit the
    FLDS. He has long since left the group…run by his parents…and come to his senses.
    The discussion was really about the religious right..far right and how “fringe loony” they have gotten. Again, sorta like the stuff written here sometimes. Debunk any scientific or logical fact….becuz God has told you otherwise.
    Anyway, I sorta saw a paralell btwn the two.

  415. Just ta let Texans know, there might be ten times the flds coming than they have this year.

    Yanno, go from 800 peeps to 8,000?

    sobering thought, Texas! Say, GOT FD?

    That would be nice! Yeah 8000 in Eldorado, all of them voting “as one”, just to see your reactions as they exercise their inalienable right to vote would be more than worth it.

    Stamp, I guess it is not enough to say they “force” girls into underage marriages, now they are disease spreaders.

  416. Soozie, isn’t that like people who say Adam and Noah proove inbreeding ain’t a problem. Rather than accept the present and what is known about the present, hand onto questional artifacts of Greek Mythology.

  417. Duane the FLDS don’t have 8,000 members, let alone that many voting age members.

    They don’t even have 250 members who can qualify for Zion.

  418. http://www.texasmonthly.com/2009-10-01/feature2.php

    With God On Their Side

    SusieQ

  419. Duh duane are you telling us that they changed their mutated genes when they drank the Schleicher County well water? They brought a crime wave, embezzled funds and a fanatical faith in the FBI Top Ten Wanted fugitive they gave a safehaven on the YFZ Ranch. In order to vote Duh duane they would need to provide valid IDs, proof of residency and sign a sworn statement of citizenship. This would have caused problems for anyone recently brought from Mexico/Canada, a parolee, a fugitive, outstanding bench warrants, unpaid traffic tickets, felony records, welfare enrollees of another state, proof of ID at polling place with a photo, you know with height, sex,weight, gender and DOB all that stuff the FLDS leaders refuse to provide.

    It seems your a Fantasy FLDS Church player. How’s your sect doing in the past year?

  420. CajiM you are too funny!

    Fantasy FLDS Church player.

    I can see the game, now. Instead of Farming on Facebook, players can build their polygamist communities, with underage brides. You get more points from hiding them from the law.

    Instead of buying lettuce seeds, the old farts can purchase 9 year old girls and see how many babies they can produce before they turn 20.

  421. Cajim, I get it, they are mutants!
    I never said their are 8000, 10,000, or 20. Most of the media puts the number around roughtly 10,0000. Given that the Short creek pop is 6000, and YFZ, CO, SD, Nevada, ID, and bountiful. That figures seems more or less accuarate.
    I don’t really care if 8000 move to YFZ, but if they did it would be great. Bottom line is that even with several hundred voters aligned in a block, they could very well influence close elections in Schleicher coutny, they add an additional 500 or so, they can win local elections.

    If for some reason, a Barlow, Steed, Dutson, Jeffs, Holm, or Jessop was elected Sheriff or local justice, I have total faith they would do their job to the best of their abilities and given their nearly total lack of vices would be far less vulnerable to corruption by Mexican narcos and their associates than any local good ol’ boy. FYI, W. Texas with its sparsly populated deserts and proximity to Mexico is a major route for drug traffickers.

  422. Duane what makes you think the FLDS lack vices?

    Liars are thieves. Thieves are liars. FLDS are both.

  423. But still, just being a resident doesn’t get ya a vote.Can any of them even prove residency? As cajiM pointed out..most [I am guessing here] may have no paper trail. Many, if previous posts are correct, don’t even have birth certificates. And when was the last accurate head count inside the [people are free to leave anytime] compound [with lookout towers for protection].

  424. Ole dizzy duane is on another fantasy trip. Been smoking some of the mary jane that goes through Texas? Just look at how good a job the flds town marshals did in short creek. They were so biased and ineffective at LE that the states had to decertify them. Another troll trick, post something that is absolutely counter to the facts to get a reaction.

  425. Duh duane the YFZ Ranch population has all the legitimacy of the ‘Hole in the Wall’ Gang and you wish they would vote in a block to some how run/take over Schleicher County politics. Where did you learn your civics from ‘Mein Kampf’. The Texas Monthly article showed that Adult women were approximately 140 women and 60-70 men for a total of 210 Adults so it looks like Willie R. Jessops asking for 500-600 voter register forms was another Press bluff and false bravado but you sure bought it! By the by your YFZ Ranch has never returned to prior CPS Removal levels. Don’t let me ruin your fantasy play numbers with facts and reality, you can dream. Oh, the eyes of Texas are upon you all the live long day, Good Luck with your little schemes, especially the ones you announce here for everyone to read the takeover mentality and offensive tactics of the FLDS Church and their leadership. I think Willie R. Jessop calls it operation ‘Good Neighbor’ but you call it by it’s more common name a hostile invasion by force.

  426. duane

    Yeah, 8000 flds equates to what, 7000 underage children who cant vote?

    How many can you fit on the old YFZ?

    Anyway, it looks like the plan to move there has been shut down.

    They bought some property in New Braunfels too, aint nothin happening though.

    And if it does they are scattered, as they currently are with many having to live off campus, they cant even vote on who the next PFFFFT is gonna be much less an FLDS Sheriff.

    IRT to the disease, they take that and spread it where ever they go, they havent listened to counseling.

    Texas is going to have that disease spread all over, as they kick out more boys as they grow up.

    But you neednt worry about it if you or your kids dont marry one.

  427. So Brooke Adams wrote about HOPE Org’s big grant from the Presbyterian Church to provide life skills classes to children in Short Creek.

    Funny, she won’t let HOPE org post her newspaper articles, but she has no problem trying to bring life to her Blaugh by posting info on them.

    What a hypocrite she is!

  428. True! I hope the HOPE ORG does 10 times the good for the FLDS than the Safety Net ever does.

    The trib fails in a lot of ways – this doesnt surprise me. And Brooke has her blog down to a slow crawl. Not much there anymore.

  429. Brooke hasn’t had an open forum for two weeks now and she was down to only one-a-week as it was, seems the SLTrib uses the muzzle, if needed.

    I know their is a disclaimer between the SLTrib and Brooke’s ‘Plural Life’ blog (wink,wink) but they still only feature her link, exclusively.

  430. I just posted a rebuttal to Hugh and Grandpa Bile’s comments on the deps for Fischer and Brower…

  431. Welcome back TBM, hope everythings well.

    This Texas Monthly article IMO was softball but she got in a good run with the bit on the bed, which TexasFlds was able to continue, have you read it yet?

  432. Yes, and I loved your comments. Somehow I don’t think Hugh is back in the real world yet though…

  433. Duane,

    Lying is a vice. Aa an example, Merril signed a sworn statement in Utah during the custody battle with Carolyn that he would never consent to the marriage of one of his daughters who was under 18 years of age.

    Gee, isn’t he under indictment for not only consenting, but performing such a marriage in Texas?

    I’ll see if I can find the court document and post it, unless FLDS Texas beats me to it…

  434. TBM Hugo pulled down his posting on your being a law clerk but some how still believes it and is holding it in abeyance for yet another release once he dips it with some more coats of aluminum. Does he think trashing your chosen privacy position in some way wins him more viewers or what’s his whole deal anyway. Seems he wants everyone ‘privately’ posting/blogging to have their identities known by subterfuge of Blogger rules. He reflects that vindictive vendetta mentality that knows no bounds. He says he’s OK with some anonymous posters because their known to him as though that some how justifies his attempt to out a stranger, very peculiar rationale.

  435. Good lord I’d love to see that and have it prosecuted!

    Thanks for the heads up TBM, hope its found soon!

  436. “Does he think trashing your chosen privacy position in some way wins him more viewers or what’s his whole deal anyway.”

    It’s pretty obvious to me that he has a serious self esteem problem and is constantly trying to “win” some imaginary competition. Witness his fascination with his site ticker.

  437. Betty

    Yes of course he thinks he is on some moral high ground by spouting who he is, his failures and his childrens prison sentences.

    “I” wouldnt brag if I was him, but hey, its a free internet, and I dont think its won him any prizes, beyond TBM’s “Tin Foil Hat of the month Award” and my “Double Dipped Tin Foil Hat Award” for sucking up to Bills latest ramblings.

    Odd, Bill told the internet that secret flds agent “WC” lived in Amarillo, and WC promptly STFU.

    And WC never caught any flak from Bill or Hugh for being so secretive, but I dont blame WC, if he wants his family he better be slicker than James Bond.

  438. I’m still here, bud. I am just tired of this battle of wits with all the unarmed people over here on this blog. (Warren says thanks for dinner, since it’s your taxes that paid for it).

  439. WC

    “I’m still here, bud. I am just tired of this battle of wits with all the unarmed people over here on this blog. (Warren says thanks for dinner, since it’s your taxes that paid for it).”

    ====================

    We pay to have the SPAM puried and shot down his gullet with a rubber hose.

    Its something he has come to enjoy. Oh that and his new bed, of course he is playing musical beds and doesnt know which prison will become his permanent home.

    I hear Fort Leavenworth Kansas is warming the sheets for him once the states are done with him!

  440. Here, WC here’s some cyber Flavo-aid grape drink might as well get used to the taste, you’ll be asked to swallow it down soon enough. How’s Prophet Lyle S. Jeffs doin’ hope he has a stronger learning curve than Willie R. he’s seems to still be learning on-the-job. Anybody thinking past Judge Lindberg’s decision to put Berry Knoll up for sale, you know that lawsuit that Elissa Wall filed is up next. Which law firm gets more enriched on that defense, I think it’s Rod Parker’s turn ain’t it? When’s Betty Jessop’s book going to get published, seems she has been in draft, forever. Did Oprah promise to put it on her ‘Book of the Month’ club list? Say you should be familiar with JNJ Engineering work in Texas, how’s biz, kinda slow, huh? Have you had a chance to see the buffalo in the Palo Duro Canyon or do you have to work until midnite, too? I hope to visit the Cal Farley’s Boys Ranch some day, love the work that they do for Texas.

    Say I don’t see much trace of frostbite, you must be used to digging your own way out.

  441. WC Dude,

    It was obvious that you didn’t know squat about 8th grade science or basic probability math the other day, so I wouldn’t go bragging about wits if I were you.

  442. Oh thats right,

    WC hasnt yet wrapped his head around the true reason Warren gave up the UEP.

  443. And that reminds me of a fun song and pleasant diversion. Any body want to go on a motorcylce ride?

  444. lol

  445. It’s more like

    Insert “Warren” for “Chris Crocker”

  446. All criminals want to be left alone.

  447. WC

    OK you get two points for having a sense of humor!

    And here I had thought Warren had stolen them all and kept them in a lock box!

  448. er no banjo,, its hair brain as in alinusara has hair for brains.
    =====================================================
    Umm I have never personally attacked you yet I find at least twice now you have attacked me by name. Sorry DD but though I’ll attack your arguments I’ll never reciprocate by attacking your character or intelligence.

  449. Sister Mary Cupcake, eh?

  450. HAHAHA Attilla!!!

    Alinusara,, It wasn’t an attack, it was the truth!

  451. Alinusara,, It wasn’t an attack, it was the truth!
    ================================================
    Really? You posted this:

    …”its hair brain as in alinusara has hair for brains.”
    ========================================================
    The brain and the rest of the nervous system are composed of many different types of cells, but the primary functional unit is a cell called the neuron. All sensations, movements, thoughts, memories, and feelings are the result of signals that pass through neurons. Neurons consist of three parts. The cell body (13) contains the nucleus, where most of the molecules that the neuron needs to survive and function are manufactured. Dendrites (14) extend out from the cell body like the branches of a tree and receive messages from other nerve cells. Signals then pass from the dendrites through the cell body and may travel away from the cell body down an axon (15) to another neuron, a muscle cell, or cells in some other organ. The neuron is usually surrounded by many support cells. Some types of cells wrap around the axon to form an insulating sheath (16). This sheath can include a fatty molecule called myelin, which provides insulation for the axon and helps nerve signals travel faster and farther. Axons may be very short, such as those that carry signals from one cell in the cortex to another cell less than a hair’s width away. Or axons may be very long, such as those that carry messages from the brain all the way down the spinal cord.
    ====================================================
    If what you posted is what you consider the truth then you need to stop lieing to these good people.

  452. ( You know her, don’t you? The simple country girl who took a vow of eternal brutality? )

  453. “If what you posted is what you consider the truth then you need to stop lieing to these good people.”

    In all honesty you have no standing to tell other people not to lie. YOU might consider a lie of omission or a half truth to be truthful but individuals of integrity see them for the lies that they are. You haven’t fooled anyone and your “butter wouldn’t melt in my mouth” act is getting old. You DO attack people and you attempt to misdirect, obfuscate and cloud the issues at every turn. People find that very insulting, as I’m sure you’re aware and as I’m very sure is your intent.

  454. Hello, Attila, I didn’t know you (or her), but it is nice to meet you. ;D

  455. “It’s all her fault because she apostatized. See the fruits of apostacy, my daughter. You don’t want that, do you!”

    Just curious, Cement (and yes, I got the sarcasm), but what’s the excuse for those who kill themselves while still in the group? I know it happens. Do they really believe all those “accidental” deaths are really accidental?

  456. Quick change in topic…I was just trying to get a look at YFZ on Google Earth [as well as Bing and I forget the other map site]…and ALL the pics there now show the ranch pretty much pre-temple. I thought it was interesting. I couldnt find any of the map views I use to look at, months back, showing the full temple with the surrounding houses, fields and work shops [I guess that’s what they were]. So, I guess my question is…why? Did they petition the map sites to get the property removed? More secrecy? Inquiring minds want to know!LOL

  457. Okay, I’m going to catch up with several posts in a row since I’ve finally caught up in reading this forum. I’ll start with Alin the willful idiot:

    “Really? You would control the bedroom activities of adults with the genes making it possible for them to have children with genetic disorders such as down’s syndrome, spina bifida, cerebral palsy?”

    Actually, none of those disorders have been shown to run in families. They are fairly spontaneous genetic defects. The only one I know of with any kind of indicator is Down’s Syndrome, which is far more likely to occur in mothers older than 40. However I had a friend years ago who had a Down’s Syndrome daughter when she was only 20. And Cerebral Palsy is not a “genetic” disorder but a form of brain damage. It can be caused by oxygen deprivation at birth, premature birth and birth accidents.

    “Your goal is to only have blond hair, blue eye children in hopes of having some sort of master race?”

    No, you made that up. And you wonder why people accuse you of lying. It’s also proof that you DO indeed attack people, by placing bigoted words in their mouths. Perhaps you didn’t call Betty a genocidal bigot but the implication was there for everyone to see.

    “That’s a pretty laudable goal. I would encourage all potential parents to have genetic testing done. Since 1990 we have found 20 cases in two cities while worldwide we have about 8 million genetic birth defects per year (this doesn’t include environmental birth defects). Perhaps this says it best:

    “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?” Matthew 7:3”

    Baloney. The majority of genetic birth defects are not predictable and not preventable. My family found out in my generation that there was a risk of cystic fibrosis in our genetic heritage. We’ve been more careful to look for spouses not even remotely related to us as a result. Now that genetic testing is becoming affordable, that will undoubtedly factor in too. If someone told me that a supreme deity expected me to go ahead and have children that would likely either carry the gene for CF to pass along to their children or have the disease itself to test, purify or prove my sinfulness, I’d tell them that their deity is a sadistic illegitimate son of a diseased dockside worker and a visiting sailor.

    “Fetal alchohol syndrome is probably the easiest of all birth defects to prevent.”

    Where I’m from if you have a child with FAS they aren’t going to let you take it home from the hospital – it’s proof of child abuse.

  458. “So in that light, with say, cancer as a strong marker of radiation overdose, I am not sure that problem has manifested itself much anyway, unlike, say Chernobyl.”

    Members of my family are down winders from Hanford – we have a history of thyroid problems and a slightly higher incidence of certain cancers, but no fumerase deficiency and it’s probably not responsible for the CF either.

  459. “I’m not into genetics, so correct me if I am wrong. If we have something multiple recessive, don’t you cut the odds in half each generation?”

    This disease requires the gene from both the mother and the father to combine to have the disease expressed. Essentially, if both Mom and Dad carry the gene there is a 1 in 4 chance that the child will either have the disease OR be free of the gene altogether and a 50/50 chance that the child will carry the gene in potential to pass along to their children. Of course the numbers only work that way in averages so individuals could just end up unlucky. For instance the couple that have had 8 miscarriages and no surviving children are most likely both carrying a serious genetic defect AND getting unlucky enough to have those genetics expressed with each pregnancy. (Of course the mother could also have some physical problem preventing her from carrying a child to term, but I’m sort of assuming they had that checked out at some point.)

    “So you may have something like 1 in 64 chance with Barlows/Jessop marriage on each child, then the next generation would be 1 in 32. Or is it square root, so the next generation is 1 in 8? Those that know, which way is it?”

    Math is certainly not my forte so I’m not sure. My gut says it’s probably a square root thing, though, since the averages say that out of every 4 children born to a couple with the gene 1 is free of the gene, two carry it as a recessive and one has the disease. Since the FLDS have such large families they are introducing that many more gene carriers with each generation. (On the other hand, their relatively high attrition rate of members might be helping since those who leave are more likely to marry someone completely removed from the gene pool. That’s the real solution – getting someone with an entirely new set of genes in the picture. Too bad they aren’t importing some Lamanites from Mexico or something like that. 😉

    “So, what keeps an seriouly endangered species from becoming extinct as a result of inbreeding? Or is that one of the challenges in keeping an endangered species from becoming extinct?”

    Animals actually have a lot more chromosomes that people. It’s very odd to my mind. On the other hand, enough inbreeding in a small enough pool of animals will cause genetic defects and quite possibly lead to the extinction of the species.

  460. “Cement, what often happens is that in the short term, inbreeding brings out the genetic defects, then eventually the bad genes are bred out over the generations, as those with the defects tend to die out before they can reproduce.”

    You keep saying this, Duane, and it’s no more true than it was the first time you said it. The fact is that an autosomal birth defect, like FD is NEVER going to “breed out” of the population because about 50% of the offspring are carriers rather than having the disease themselves. They live to reproduce and increase the odds of spreading the defect.

  461. “If someone told me, my and husband and I a gene that if we had children they would be severely deformed, in pain, have horrible seizures, never grow mentally past the age of a 2yr old, you think I would do that to a baby and have children?????
    HELL NO!!!!”

    DD, My daughter has ADHD, as does her oldest child. She is now engaged to a man with ADHD so severely he’s like a child in some ways. (He’s also a great guy and makes her happy, so don’t think I’m trashing him here.) His impulse control is TERRIBLE, he plays video games and rocks violently AND DOESN’T REALIZE HE’S DOING IT! They’ve talked about having children. I told her if she does I expect her to go to a sperm bank. Nothing against the guy, but with their genetics they’re likely to have a child who would vibrate so fast the poor kid would end up in the center of the earth one day.

  462. “Maybe this has already been said–there is some other disease lurking other than fumarase that will inevitably come out from close marrying.”

    Good point, and you’re probably right.

  463. “Well, 3 out of 4 children are healthy in such a union and would not experience life without the sacrifice of their sister/brother with the disease.”

    Really, WC? The mother and father couldn’t have had children with other people who didn’t carry the genetic defect? Their sibling HAD to die for them to be born?

    “How will God weigh that in the balance after this life?”

    You truly worship a god so sadistic that He expects one child in 4 to die a slow, lingering painful death for the other three to live and would PUNISH a parent for choosing a spouse with some genetic forethought?

    “Oh, I forgot. Your idea is to kill them all. Forget I asked.”

    Who said to kill any children? All I’ve seen is people saying to expand the genepool. Have children responsibly. Don’t play Russian Roulette with their genetics. That’s “murder” in your book? What a drama king you are.

  464. “Its like WC says, without sacrificing a few 12 yr olds, think of the babies that wont be born!”

    Funny thing about that little idea, Stamp, women in polygynous relationships are LESS likely to have numerous offspring. Now Barbara had her 14, but how many did each of her sister wives have? Warren has HOW MANY wives and how many children? The numbers don’t lie. Granted, the man is going to have more offspring, but if the goal is to bring those little spirit babies into the world then they’d better stop the polygamy and go back to monogamy because those women aren’t living up to their reproductive potential. Heck, Mrs. Dugger has Barbara Jessop beat by 5 children already!

  465. Whew, all done and caught up. Your patience has been appreciated. 😉

  466. Rebeckah, I’ve argued the birth rate topic also, even quoted statistics from studies of Irish Catholics, but everyone seems to equate polygyny with more children in the total population. I think it’s two things. One is that most people in today’s culture use birth control or some form of family planning and aren’t trying to have a maximum number of kids. The other is that they see the size of the family of ONE MAN and think that effects the total population. It’s the size of family per woman that matters. Or as they used to say in project planning class, it takes a woman nine months to have a baby, no matter how many men you assign to the task.

  467. Rebeckah, I very much enjoyed all your ketchup posts. Thanks for a job well done 🙂

  468. I think it’s just more proof that a) women ARE second class citizens and their desires to have children (or not have children) are unimportant b) getting those souls out of heaven is NOT a motivating factor, just an excuse to do what the men want to do and c) FLDS lie so much they don’t recognize them anymore.

    People like WC kind of scare me. Comes here, says nothing verifiable and quite a bit with evidence against it, and then calls US witless. That kind of willfull ignorance leads to atrocities — and I’ve always believed that it was people like that who fueled Hitler’s rampage across Europe.

  469. Oops, b) just an excuse for the men to do what they want to do

    Too early this morning. 😉

  470. Betty, I’ve argued here before that even women having large families is not what drives population. Take 7000 years to Adam (which I think is mythical) and a net increase in population of 50% each fifty years, and you get 9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 people today. Where are they? You need moderate sized families and you need to spend time developing the resource base to take care of them. Excess breeding is not the way to increase population.

  471. Cement , its called the “Circle of Life” everday a child is born someone else dies. Having more children in the society and economy today is just ignorant in my opinion. Even if you have your own garden, butcher your own beef, churn your own butter, make your own bread,,, you still have to pay electricity, water, gas, gasoline, to be able just to live. I can’t imagine what a household of 25 people having to use electrticity, water and gas would be in today’s economy. I know once my children got married and moved out, We saw staggering savings in our all our utilities, food bills, clothing bills, insurance bills for vehicles.

  472. I know once my children got married and moved out, We saw staggering savings in our all our utilities, food bills, clothing bills, insurance bills for vehicles
    ===========================
    Maybe I will get out of debt before I die after all.

  473. Wow, cement. That’s so….reasonable.

    That happened, to us also, DD. A teenage boy playing football in school eats WAY more than two 50 year olds. And the girls would just stand in the shower until the hot water was gone, or run a whole load in the washer for one blouse, etc. Then there’s health insurance, dentists, fees for books and activities….we home schooled and it was still expensive to buy the science lab kits and what not.

  474. Bountiful Misconceptions

    Bountiful’s critics, feminists especially, have trouble accepting that women there are not brainwashed, subjugated automatons “in need of deliverance,” which is how the media often portray them, Prof. Campbell says.

    In fact, the Bountiful women whom she has interviewed are clear thinking, resourceful and in some cases well educated. Not to be underestimated. They “cast Bountiful as a heterogeneous and dynamic social and political space,” Prof. Campbell

    Read more: http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/story.html?id=2035870#ixzz0SCCZavVq

    This is from somone who does not approve of polygamy but at least had the gumption to go there and see for herself what the deal was.

  475. Yeah, sure. Everyone wants to be just another door in an abandoned motel, for some fat middle aged man. What young girl wouldn’t want that?

    Wasn’t it his first wife who left?

  476. Good news for the rule of law and due process!

    Canadian polygamists win court challenge

  477. Gee duane the good Professor Campbell clearly states that she doesn’t endorse polygamy, why is that? She doesn’t say in fact she makes no comment about tenets of faith like, Curse of Cain, United Order or Blood Atonement all of which would conflict with Canadian laws just like polygamy. Winston Blackmore has married 26 wives and has sired 106+ children and Professor Campbell makes no comment about that family either. Several of Warren’s divorced wives are quite vocal and live nearby but ,again, no comment from Professor Campbell. In fact Professor Campbell doesn’t spend any time discussing the FLDS Church and Canadian law. Duane this is a fluff article you have taken from the ‘Plural Wife’ blog site. Professor Campbell is merely expressing her impression and general experience as an outsider to this sect and outside of her professional knowledge and expertise.

    Where’s the endorsement from a Canadian Social Scientist about the unequal treatment of the women and children?

  478. “Good news for the rule of law and due process!

    Canadian polygamists win court challenge”

    For once I must agree with you. A ruling which upholds the procedures of the law can only benefit the public in general.

  479. Alberta Civil Liberties Association published article,”Separate and Unequal : the Women and Children of Polygamy” states, “An authoritarian, theocratic culture where many individual rights are so limited that they have little or no meaning when measured against the bundle of rights and liberties that other Canadians enjoy…..(Polygamy) is harmful to children, women and society because it perpetuates a value system premised on the idea that women have no place in a community as fully equal citizens”.

    So much for Professor Campbell’s glowing observation that is blind to fundamental freedoms and liberties as equality or justice for FLDS women and children.

  480. Was that written by Professer Cambell? Just curious.

  481. Professor Campbell is merely expressing her impression and general experience as an outsider to this sect and outside of her professional knowledge and expertise.
    —————————————————
    It’s awesome for a educated person to give an unbiased opinion based upon careful observation. It’s called the scientific method.

  482. t’s awesome for a educated person to give an unbiased opinion based upon careful observation. It’s called the scientific method.

    Alin – that’s about the dumbest thing I’ve heard said recently. The scientific method is testing hypotheses against evidence. It has nothing to do with opinion. Opinion can be based upon scientific evidence but since the FLDS don’t exactly hand themselves over for study, there is no such thing as a scientific opinion on the FLDS.

  483. I dunno RiH. An unbiased observation even of a limited group can be the bases of a scientific thesis. One of my professors graduating thesis was based upon his observations of a small community of raindeer herders in Finland.

  484. I’m with Ron, go back and read what the civil liberties folks said – they are actually paying attention.

  485. Hmmm, so your professer observed the entire community, not just one wedding, and presumably for longer than the duration of a single ceremony but you want to compare your professors thesis with Professor Campbell’s opinion? Seems either dumb as a box of rocks or deceitfully disingenuous to me.

  486. I was pointing out the fact that I would better accept Professor Campbell’s opinion/thoughts on the law than her assessment of FLDS plural wives lives given it is then her own opinion than legal assessment. Campbell definitely states that she disavows polygamy but gives no explanation.

    Alberta Civil Liberties Association comments embrace far better a expert legal assessment of polygamy’s harms. Professor Campbell had nothing to do with the Alberta Civil Liberties Assoc. article.

  487. civil liberties assoc in any country make me nervous as hell!!

  488. I don’t consider it a civil liberty to rape little girls, regardless what your religion. I don’t consider it a civil liberty to confine a woman to a mental institution just because she is frustrated by her husband’s actions.

  489. Thank you, CajIM, I didn’t know who wrote what so I was confused.

  490. I think you’re missing the point of Cajim’s post. The Alberta Civil Liberties group published a carefully studied statement on the negative outcomes for women and children in polygamy. I’ve read it. They make a sound case for the fact that the women and children involved in polygyny don’t fare as well as women and children in monogamy.

  491. lol, I mean they published a statement about the conlusions drawn based on their studies of women and children in polygyny. I read it and it seemed to my unprofessional thinking that it was very carefully constructed to try and avoid any kind of bias one way or another.

  492. I would like to thank TxBlues for his latest aritcle about the upcoming hearing on the child support hearing for carolyn jessop.
    Very factual, very throrough.

  493. Sorry,, misspelled thorough Lol

  494. Rebeckah, there are multiple studies regarding the effect of polygyny on women and children, and none of them are favorable. I posted some of them on Blues’ blog.

  495. I haven’t read a favorable one either, Catwhisperer. Which might be why it’s so hard to believe blank faced women saying, “We’re soooo happy in our lives.” A couple probably are and those that can’t fake just don’t get to go out in public. (Gentile public, that is.)

  496. It is a woman’s natural instinct to be married to ONE man as his ONLY wife. That’s why God created ONE man for ONE wife.
    everything people have added to that equation is just that, manmade.

  497. Concur deputy dog !

  498. How many animals and what was the pairing onto Noah’s Ark, was that one bull and three cows or was it just one pair of all the species of animals. How many women were allowed onto his Noah’s Ark was it a harem of plural wives or just couples? If there was ever a time that mankind would have needed a replenishment by polygyny, wouldn’t have been after Noah’s Ark came upon dry land? God’s plan has scattered mankind’s seed mostly by monogamy and not by polygamy, curious how He works in mysterious ways?

  499. Absolutely Jim. Since you express an interest in religion, it is important to note that the Masoretic Text of Genesis (most frequently quoted in the time of Christ) states : …” they shall become one flesh” whereas Jesus said in Matthew 19 : ” …the TWO shall become one flesh…” Jesus consciously inserted “two” in the text here. This was a common exegetical technique of rabbis of the New Testament period who opposed polygamy. (see also the Talmud on this issue) Rabbis in the time of Jesus who opposed polygamy also referenced the Noah’s arc account as you did, noting that only pairs of animals and humans were placed on the arc.

  500. See this link :
    http://www.tyndalehouse.com/Staff/Instone-Brewer/prepub/Jesus%20on%20Monogamy.pdf

  501. I also concur, you cannot do anything about the fact that there is approximately a 1:1 ratio of male to female. I have argued that with the polygamy supporters who have no answer to it. If warren has 50 wives a bunch of other men will have no wife.

  502. Bosu! Blessed Be Yahshua Ha Mashiyad, Jah Rastafar – Haille Sellaisse, Jeesum Peez

    A wah yu know, Bengie mon here the same to say grant wizdum frum above, yah John 14:2 let me have a lil’ bit o’dat. Lissen I tesamony, mon about this here Royal Hugh McBryde from Babylon him nuh knowin’ da truth ’bout Sistahs, him talkin de things whole heap and he nuh see it. He can nun catch dem, he a dizzy Rascal, yah no see it. We know de way and whatzwrongwithhim? Old Ram Goat nun see his eyes nuh find his nanny goats, him blind, nah one can test.

    Little more….known One Life, One love Peez, Bingie

  503. “Men are more impure and worldy than women; a lot more of them leave the religion.” Isn’t there a saying somewhere about horses and carts?

  504. chemist wrote “I also concur, you cannot do anything about the fact that there is approximately a 1:1 ratio of male to female.”

    This is one of the reasons given for polygyny in both Islam and Fundie Mormon. Some historians of early LDS days argue this as fact that there were more women than men. The historical truth just does not bear that out. At first men and men with families were the converts who made the arduous trip West. So there were more MEN than WOMEN. Then, once polygamy was proclaimed, efforts to recruit single women began. So it has been artificial from the very beginning.

    There may be something to it in isolated circumstances where war has depleted the male population. For instance, the Russian population that was born between 1910 and 1930 was depleted by 1/4 during the first Civil War under Lenin, again in WWII related mostly to Stalingrad Battle and then again in the Stalinist pogroms. But those are rare and isolated instances. The modern trend in war is more widespread and aimed at the general populace and women and children die at equal rates in that type of war. So even that may be a thing of the past.

    The simple test of this theory is to ask how many men of less than 30 are marrying women of more than 40, because those are the areas of demographics where the population is out of balance. When men start marrying menopausal widows in order to support and comfort them, we might believe this. But if the norm is for an older man to marry a younger woman, it is total BS.

  505. cement,

    I think it is more like “men have jobs, cars and outside contacts: more of them leave”.

  506. Just so you folks know and can protect yourselves, I thought I would pass this on. Pharasee who posts at http://hughmcbryde.blogspot.com/ and on various blogs on this subject has in the last few days informed me that he knows my real identity and has bragged that he found it through old fashioned research. Although he said on Brooke’s blog that I am not important enough to stalk, later yesterday he made unwanted contact with me on Facebook.

    I suggest to all of you that you take a hard look at how easy your internet identity is to crack and how you feel about that. If you have a facebook account, you can block his Facebook account (his name is above in his blog address and he makes no secret that he lives in Vermont). You should also take a look at the bar at the top of the page, select settings, privacy and then spend some time thinking about what you are willing to share with the world from there. You should also use a seperate email address for social networking than you use for work contacts, resume posting and internet banking and shopping. When someone ‘outs’ someone on the internet, it’s not just an embarrassment or invitation to harassment. It is like unlocking the door to your bank vault and then informing thieves that it’s available.

  507. Oh, and this is also proof, just in case you still needed some, that he is not really a Southern Gentleman or a Good Christian, but is rather a petty bully.

  508. Betty, sorry that you are going through this. You give terrific advice, thanks for it.
    It is easy to recognize he is a bully, given his comment to Rebeckah yesterday, which contained a metaphorical threat of violence.

    “….You’re in for the fight of your life. I will, figuratively, with all of God’s love that I can put into the act, rip your proverbial arm off and beat you to death with it….”

  509. I appreciate your sympathy and agree with your assessment. There is an escalation in terms of violence and in threats going on with him that is disturbing. I have also warned Brooke and Natalie Malonis by email based on some of his side comments.

  510. Hurricane Police Department

    Marvin Balmforth Jeffs, 36, 429 N. 2480 West, Hurricane, was arrested Friday on charges of driving under the influence, improper lane travel, no child restraint and weapon possession by an intoxicated person. Jeffs was booked into Purgatory Correctional Facility on $2,982 bail.

  511. Who is Marvin Jeffs? (pardon my ignorance)

  512. CYBER STALKING IS ILLEGAL:

    Vermont Statutes Ann. § 1027 —- Disturbing peace by use of telephone or other electronic communications:

    (a) A person who, with intent to terrify, intimidate, harass or annoy makes contact by means of a telephonic or other electronic communication with another and (i) makes any request, suggestion or proposal which is obscene, lewd, lascivious or indecent; (ii) threatens to inflict injury or physical harm to the person or property of any person; or (iii) disturbs or attempts to disturb, by repeated anonymous telephone calls or other electronic communications, whether or not conversation ensures, the peace, quiet or right of privacy of any person … shall be fined not more that $250.00 of imprisoned not more than three months or both …

  513. Yes, he clearly violated this law. You made it clear to him that you did not want to be contacted by him, and he attempted to contact you via Facebook. He also made a threat of physical violence to Rebeckah.

  514. Troll Behavior – Deleted – ADMIN

  515. Yes, Vulture, I have girl balls. And proud of it.

    I’m building a file of documentation.

  516. And your post just rehashes nonsense you’ve posted elsewhere. Who cares what you think of Coram Non Judice? If you don’t like it, DON’T GO THERE. Problem solved.

  517. Vulture,

    Just because we do not agree that there is some imaginary Constitutional right to raise children for the purpose of abusing them and teaching them to commit felonies, doesn’t mean any of us have a closed mind. It means we obviously have a different understanding of what Liberty is, or in the case of the victims of polygamy, is not.

    Maintaining anonymity is very important to some bloggers. That should be their choice, shouldn’t it? It is not as though we have no evidence that those opposed to the continued subjugation of women within polygamy have not experienced stalking, tailing, threats, slander or even actual violence.

    I don’t always agree with Texas Blues Man, his agenda, methods or even his personality, but he has never done anything to indicate he lacks a decent character.

    You—on the other hand, seem to think that defending men’s ‘right’ to impose the belief in the practice of a felony onto innocent children, using the threat of eternal, suffering, damnation with impunity, to violate their human rights, is somehow an indication of your good character.

    I respectfully disagree with that assessment. Your comments have done nothing to change my estimation of TBM’s character, and I doubt it has changed for anyone else here either….but good luck with that.

  518. Boots, you said it so well!

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  520. Troll Behavior – Deleted – ADMIN

  521. Troll Behavior – Deleted – ADMIN

  522. “THAT bothers me, and it should bother everyone who believes in Constitutional protections.”

    I believe in Constitutional protections. I just don’t believe the mean what you want them to mean. I DO believe the YFZ investigation was constitutional, legal, and way overdue, even though it seems to have been triggered by a hoax phone call. I also firmly disagree that the First Amendment has EVER guaranteed the right to break the laws of the land while you worship. And namecalling someone else only shows that you have not real argument to put forth and that you have the maturity level of the average kindergartener.

  523. Oh, but I DO have a real argument. It just never seems to get past the feces-tossing stage. I didn’t start the name calling – you people did. I just respond in kind.

    I don’t see where the 1st Amendment comes into play here; I have never addressed 1st Amendment concerns in regard to this matter. I have 4th Amendment concerns. And I DON’T think that a clearly fraudulent premise for a blanket warrant spurred by bigotry falls within the realm of Constitutional.

  524. There has been no legal ruling stating that the rescue conducted at the YFZ was in any way unconstitutional.

    I think you’ve provided us all with a good glimpse into your character.

    The documentation taken during the rescue provided enough evidence of the felony crime of polygamy, practiced by the majority of the ranch’s residents, and that is all we need as Texans, to prosecute the crime.

    Hopefully you, and your ilk will get the message that Texas is not the right place to call home for those who are determined to strip the human rights from women and children.

    If I were you, I’d get used to it.

  525. You use insulting words and then whine that someone has insulted you. Sorry if we aren’t sympathetic.

  526. Hey Boots, I’ll take your word for it the first time someone is actually CONVICTED. What’s that? No convictions yet? Yeah…about that “that is all we need as Texans, to prosecute the crime”………

  527. Troll Behavior – Deleted – ADMIN

  528. By the way, the point that EVERYONE seems to be missing regarding my post is this: I demonstrated quite clearly that the Caput a Palos uses his anonymity NOT for some altruistic aim, but to allow unabated bullying on his part against those who disagree with him. No whining involved. Just showing examples, nothing more.

    And the next time that cowardly MF’er calls me a pedophile, he’s going to find himself on the wrong end of a REAL legal action, trust me!

  529. Vulture,

    Is that what Jesus taught you, Vulture? If a man insults you, go next door and call a bunch of middle aged women stupid?

  530. Again with the straw man, Betty? HOW I practice my Christian walk is between me and the Lord. I don’t answer to you, particularly when I’m responding to purely secular issues here.

  531. We didn’t miss the point, Vulture, we don’t agree with it. And you are not exactly acting in a way to win anyone’s hearts and minds, I might add.

  532. “Hey Boots, I’ll take your word for it the first time someone is actually CONVICTED.”

    Hey, Vulture, I’ll tell you the same thing I told a dear friend before leaving Mohave County last year…

    “Hide and watch, Bubba”.

  533. Vulture, forgive me if I don’t differentiate between you and all the other name-calling whiners as to whether it is the 4th or the 1st Amenment you are trying to use as an excuse to hide felony crimes against minors in addition to other individuals. You have issues, you have a right to have them. This probably isn’t the place to air them, though, because most people here feel the actions taken as far as warrants and evidence gathering was legal and appropriately handled. And while I have compared your maturity level to that of the child you are acting like, I have not stooped to name calling at this time. As for your complaint that WE people started, no one invited you here. Feel free to leave. Or keep being verbally abusive. I’m sure the administrators of this site will block you and quite possibly Hugh very soon now.

  534. Oh, I see, if you talk about secular issues, it’s OK to insult us for no particular reason?

  535. And if Cyberbullying bothers you so much, you hypocrite (there’s a name calling for you) then why are you so buddy-buddy with Hugh. He’s not just a cyberbully, he’s a homophobic, mysoginistic cyberbully. I guess you really only care about Constitutional and/or legal violations and “bullying” that hurts you personally, everyone else can just “like” it.

  536. Apparently we started it. I’m not sure how. I think, and this is just a guess on my part, it’s because we have, or say we have, vaginas but are not bowing down before the mighty male wisdom of a carrion eater and a cyberstalking bully.

  537. Rebeckah,

    I know you to be one of the few people in this dog fight who is rational and NOT given to name calling. As such, I will respond to you in kind.

    I don’t understand why my position is seen as favoring the practices of the FLDS. Quite frankly, I’m not a fan. My concern is and has always been with the bigger picture.

    The bigger picture is this: once law enforcement gets away with an unconstitutional raid on the FLDS, what’s to stop them from using similar methods against you or me?

    If those who frequent this site and Caput Penitus Culus are so blinded by their zeal to see the FLDS punished that they’re willing to risk their OWN Constitutional protections, I feel genuine pity for you.

  538. Rebeckah,

    Here I just said you’re rational and above name calling, and you hit me with “[we have] vaginas but are not bowing down before the mighty male wisdom of a carrion eater and a cyberstalking bully”.

    Is my point so totally lost on you people that you think it’s just about male posturing? I don’t know who frequents this particular site, if it’s predominantly female or not. I do know that you’re decidedly bigoted when it comes to the FLDS and it colors your judgment, hence my little trip here.

  539. And as usual, the point continues to be missed. I may think that what you folks term pedophilia should not be illegal (I believe in parental permission to marry, and only husbands and wives should have sex), I may think Polygyny should be legal, and you may think it is abuse, but oddly, you don’t seem to catch the fact that I think the law SHOULD be followed, even if it is wrong, provided it is POSSIBLE to follow the law.

    So do I think the 12 men are in essence “guilty as charged?” Yes!

    Do I think they should be prosecuted? NO!!

    There is NO WAY whatsoever we should be prosecuting people on the basis of a “free pass” door to door search, such things are a danger TO US ALL. The CURE is FAR WORSE than the disease.

    Now, if you can outline for me a way to prevent the police from GAINING in the commission of illegal searches, and still prosecute the criminals, I will reluctantly give my assent to the prosecution of the 12 FLDS men.

    You can’t though. There is only one real way to prevent the police from benefiting when they use fake cries for help to gain access to private residences. You THROW OUT THE EVIDENCE.

    Even in spite of the fact that I don’t THINK that what they did SHOULD be a crime, it IS a crime. Since it is, those who flaunt the law should be punished for doing so.

    Because I don’t think these acts should be against the law, I would then advocate “Jury Nullification” as a strategy to the FLDS, but they should be prosecuted. If convicted, they stuck THEIR HEADS into the noose. So be it.

    I still know of no way to slow the police down in the execution of bogus arrests, bogus searches and bogus seizures unless we throw out their collected evidence, and prosecute them for their misconduct.

    If we don’t do it that way, we cease to have a free country.

  540. “The bigger picture is this: once law enforcement gets away with an unconstitutional raid on the FLDS, what’s to stop them from using similar methods against you or me?”

    I’ve followed the procedure of the serving of the warrant and obtaining of the new warrant, etc. and I think what would stop them from using a hoax phone call against me is the fact that they have no reason to suspect that a hoax phone call might be true. In the FLDS case they looked no further than that call because they knew, from the information given to them by people who had left the group, that kind of behavior was taking place. And since they found bona fide evidence of it, apparently the belief that it was happening was valid. In my case, you ask the cops who I am and they’d say “Who?” Tell them I’m beating my grandchildren or practicing black magic in the basement and they might feel the need to investigate, but then they’d go back to the cop shop happy after I let them in and showed them around.

    “If those who frequent this site and Caput Penitus Culus are so blinded by their zeal to see the FLDS punished that they’re willing to risk their OWN Constitutional protections, I feel genuine pity for you.”

    I’m not blinded by a zeal to see the FLDS punished. The majority of the FLDS are innocent women and children. I believe that even many of the men are probably otherwise decent people. What I want to see is accountability for an abusive and criminally minded organization. And if the FLDS are too blinded by their visions of Celestial Kingdoms and gentile “servants” to realize the immorality of their leaders and, in some cases, their actions; well I pity them too.

  541. You know there have been times in the past that I would respond to Hugh, but I wouldn’t even lower myself to respond to “vulture”. TROLL

  542. Vulture said : “I do know that you’re decidedly bigoted when it comes to the FLDS and it colors your judgment, hence my little trip here.”

    I am not so sure of that. Are they indeed 1) “bigoted”, OR 2) do they perceive that the rank and file FLDS adherent as someone who is a victim of the FLDS hierarchy?

    I think their feeling or position is best characterized by the latter statement.

  543. Rebeckah,

    If you’ve ever read any of Wil Griggs’ writings over at Pro Libertate, you’d know that the police aren’t all squeaky-clean protectors of the weak and oppressed.

    Yeah, maybe you get lucky, and the cops who investigate false claims against you are good guys. Or maybe you end up dead when a no-knock warrant is executed against you. Do you really want to roll the dice against those odds? I don’t.

  544. catwhisper,

    I will acknowledge that you may be right in that regard (that many are genuinely concerned about the victims). Again, it comes down to: are you willing to place yourself in a vulnerable position with regard to your OWN protections just to get convictions against 12 men alleged to be predators?

  545. “Here I just said you’re rational and above name calling, and you hit me with “[we have] vaginas but are not bowing down before the mighty male wisdom of a carrion eater and a cyberstalking bully”.”

    You know what? You’re right. You haven’t, in my short encounters with you, shown any chauvinism. I apologize for accusing you of behavior you have not engaged in. All I can say is that I was judging you by the company you keep (Hugh) and that I’m very touchy today. No excuse, but there it is. I’ll try and monitor my posts more closely.

    “I don’t know who frequents this particular site, if it’s predominantly female or not. I do know that you’re decidedly bigoted when it comes to the FLDS and it colors your judgment, hence my little trip here.”

    Actually, you’re wrong there. Disagreeing with your interpretation of the law, the Constitution or Amendment rights does not make me or anyone else “bigoted”. I know I’ve looked at all the evidence available to me. I’ve seen a pattern in this group, which I’m sure is repeated in many, many other groups of an elitist and isolationist nature, of lawbreaking, disrespect for their fellow citizens, disrespect of basic human dignity and rights and other evidence of a general unwillingness to be a member of the society in which I live. I personally find anarchists to be threatening and would like to see them dealt with before they become terrorists.

  546. “Now, if you can outline for me a way to prevent the police from GAINING in the commission of illegal searches,”

    When you are able to show, in a court of law, that the search was illegal, you’ll have a leg to stand on.

    “and still prosecute the criminals, I will reluctantly give my assent to the prosecution of the 12 FLDS men.”

    Newsflash for you — no one needs or cares about your consent. You are a NOBODY in this matter. I know that really bothers you but if you seek professional help I’m sure you’ll be able to lead a full and rich life anyway.

  547. Vulture,
    A warrant was issued by a court for the raid. The raid was legal. The investigation is legal. It was later found out that the phone call was a hoax. That doesn’t make the findings any less egregious.
    I have absolutely no fear of any one searching my home, as I am a law abiding citizen, and I have nothing to hide.

  548. Rebeckah,

    When the average citizen, particularly the one on the OTHER side of a dispute, can no longer admit or recognize what an illegal search is, it will be whatever the judicial system wants it to be.

    That will mean there will be no such thing any longer and we will be in a police state.

    I know you dislike the FLDS and you dislike what they do, but if you can’t align yourself with them to protect your own rights, you will have no rights.

    The whole business about by “assent” is to show you that I would agree with the prosecution of people I believe to have done no moral wrong. They should obey the law.

  549. People like Vulture want desperately to make the YFZ case about government abuse, when in fact, there was none.

    Refusing to believe there was ZERO improper conduct indicates he either has a hatred for government and law enforcement in general, a soft spot for racists, polygamists or all of the above.

    You see how easy it was to get him to call me a “Moron”, when I had done nothing but “respectfully disagree” with his position on the matter?

    LadySadie was right.

  550. When my son was 10 months old he was removed from my care because I took him to the emergency room with bruises on his butt and a burn on his leg. (I took him in because of the burn.) I did not cause either the bruises or the burn but I lost custody of my son for two months because I placed his well being ahead of my desire to have him with me. I don’t think I’m the right person to be asking about risking personal freedoms for the protection of children. First of all, I believe the searches and warrants were valid and legal, as I’ve mentioned. Secondly, I believe the protection of children should come before pretty much any adult ego. I’m not saying CPS is right in many cases, nor am I saying parents shouldn’t have rights. What I am saying is that children should have more rights afforded them and more protections from selfish parents. Any parent who denies their child even the most basic toys because a religious leader told them too is selfish. A mother who hands over her teen daughter to marriage is selfish (and I don’t care if it’s polygynous or monogamous). Any parent who abandons their child to go “build Zion” is selfish. I have many, many flaws, but being a selfish parent is not something I have to regret in my life.

  551. Boots,

    You do realize that if anonymous “cries for help” are the basis for search and seizure, that there is no such thing any longer as “illegal search and seizure?”

  552. Rebeckah, we have similar experiences, I broke my oldest son’s arm. You can imagine how that went at the emergency room. That was an event that had echoes for several days as one division of LE refused to communicate with the other, and CPS tried to conduct their own investigation, separate from the police, who had free access to my son in the ER.

    It was an accident. The Doctor said that particular kind of break only occurs by accident. Nevertheless my son went to school the next day, scowled around sporting a cast and when asked what happened said “my dad broke my arm.”

    Some “friend” of mine decided that there were no “reporters” in an ER and phoned it in to CPS. That was fun. I told them to come ahead on, but they would only get into my house over my dead body and they ought to check the COMPLETED investigation. They eventually did and didn’t come to see me.

  553. “When the average citizen, particularly the one on the OTHER side of a dispute, can no longer admit or recognize what an illegal search is, it will be whatever the judicial system wants it to be.”

    Hugh, when the average ego, particularly on the OTHER side of a dispute, can no longer admit or recognize that they do not decide what is legal, the court systems do, then the legal system will still be right and you wrong. We have a legal SYSTEM and it protects against the abuses you worry so much about. Yep, sometimes it fails. Some areas fail for a while before they’re finally cleaned up. But overall it works. In this case, it’s working just fine. As for the fact that you believe there is nothing “morally” wrong with marrying off young teens, separating families, screwing up children’s minds so badly that they frequently commit suicide (either fast or through a slow method like drugs and alcohol) when they can’t live up to unrealistic expectations, tax fraud, vandalism, or any of the countless other morally bankrupt actions taken by the leaders and many of the members of this group, well that just tells us quite a lot about you and your morals. And we STILL don’t care whether you ever agree that it is immoral or that the prosecution is acceptable. Your opinion is meaningless. You are, by my observation, in need of psychiatric help. I can pity people who are mentally ill, but I don’t place any weight on their opinions.

  554. “Some “friend” of mine decided that there were no “reporters” in an ER and phoned it in to CPS. That was fun. I told them to come ahead on, but they would only get into my house over my dead body and they ought to check the COMPLETED investigation. They eventually did and didn’t come to see me.”

    And there’s the difference between us. I would have simply told them to come over, had the doctor’s report ready, let them talk to my child all they wanted, and all would have been well. I respect people doing a thankless job like investigating child abuse, even when an improper or false report is made about me. I want, not just my child, but ANY child to have protection. If that meant my son spent two months in the care of kind people who weren’t me and I got to miss him for most of those two months, well we’re none the worse for it. My EGO doesn’t need to prove I’m right all of the time. I can wait patiently for events to prove me right too.

  555. Gee, Hugh, I guess the time I was in a bad accident, which resulted in total amnesia, by your method I would have been SOL in getting any help afterwards, since I didn’t even know who I was, much less anyone else.

    Perhaps you would have prefered my call for help to be ignored in such a case?

    I guess, lucky for me, I wasn’t ignored, received treatment for my injuries and am still alive and kicking today.

    But then again, I was lucky enough to have my accident in Texas, not Utah or Arizona where even reports made by identified witnesses and victims have been ignored or have simply disappeared…as long as the reports are about polygamists crimes.

    There was no misconduct by the Rangers. Get over it. Texas will be sending human rights abusers to prison. Get used to it.

  556. Yes, there is the difference between us. The case was closed and I wasn’t going to reopen it when they could pick up the phone and call members of the Winter Park Police Department, whose name and cards I had.

    The hospital has Police on duty at the ER for precisely the reason that people do abuse their children. They do an on the spot investigation when children come in with injuries like that.

    CPS KNEW THAT.

    They were so full of themselves and their own self importance and ability to scare people that they said they were coming over to investigate. I didn’t just tell them to get bent Rebeckah, I told them to get bent with names, addresses, phone numbers, times and dates.

    They were wrong, I WAS RIGHT, and having the right to defy LE when they overstep their bounds is part of what BEING AN AMERICAN IS ALL ABOUT.

    In the end they called me back and said I was right, but that still didn’t make any difference because they could do what they wanted anyway, they were just deciding not to, in this case.

    I’ve NEVER forgotten that lesson. They think they can do anything they want to.

  557. “If you’ve ever read any of Wil Griggs’ writings over at Pro Libertate, you’d know that the police aren’t all squeaky-clean protectors of the weak and oppressed.”

    I’m well aware of that fact. My son has faced profiling because he’s hispanic. (He’s also respectful and law abiding, so nothing has ever come of it.) My daughter in law needed police help ONCE in her life and it was an asshole who answered the call. No, I don’t think they’re all perfect. I think MOST of them are doing the best they can at a difficult and thankless job. I don’t see you taking a police job to improve the odds of a good officer either.

    “Yeah, maybe you get lucky, and the cops who investigate false claims against you are good guys. Or maybe you end up dead when a no-knock warrant is executed against you. Do you really want to roll the dice against those odds? I don’t.”

    You know what, I would. If some cop came into my house and shot me during a “no knock” warrant the public outcry would be so great that there would end up being a serious overhaul of the department. Why? Because EVERYONE who knows me would know it was a massive miscarriage of justice. I’ve NEVER been in trouble with the law. Not even a ticket. (Well, that’s not totally true, I don’t plan to go back to Jacksonville, North Carolina because for some reason I ran afoul of their officers twice. Once during a religious church street meeting and once selling encyclopedias.)

    Anyway, yes, I’ll sacrifice my life to protect the next thirteen year old girl who has to risk death in childbirth because it’s too risky for her “husband” to take her to a hospital. I’ll risk it in a red-hot minute. But then, I actually care about children.

  558. “My concern is and has always been with the bigger picture.”

    I think the way our society treats women and children IS the bigger picture.

  559. Boots,

    You are using an anecdotal argument and an appeal to the idea of zero tolerance. Zero tolerance is a fatuous vapor. It’s literal pursuit will kill us all.

    Sadly we are not able to eliminate all poverty, all hunger, all abuse, etc, etc. So people fall through the cracks. Crackpots then claim that people are falling through the cracks.

    Oh well. I cannot stop that. What I can do in unison with others, is minimize bad things. Since I can only minimize them, I concede people will die that might have lived, girls and boys will be abused that might not have been abused and “Crap” happens.

    Arguing that we let a rapist go is not a reason to give up my freedoms or yours. Catch them fair and square or admit defeat, reload, and try again, but play by the rules.

  560. “You do realize that if anonymous “cries for help” are the basis for search and seizure, that there is no such thing any longer as “illegal search and seizure?””

    You do realize that if the cops wait for a 14 year old rape victim to fully qualify her identity, she might be dead. They HAVE to assume that it is real until they can tell otherwise. Even if the take a team of cops and say “you guys verify this”, they have to have another team trying to help her. Too many women and children have died already because no one believed them.

    A false report by Rozita does not equal lack of good faith on the part of those going into the ranch.

  561. Troll behavior deleted -Admin

  562. We can’t eliminate all abuse, so let’s just stop trying. Right.

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  564. There is no evidence that the Rangers conducted anything but a lawful search.

    There is plenty of evidence to suggest the residents of the YFZ were abusive and neglegtful of their children.

    Hugh doesn’t care about that, though. He only cares that people who want to abuse the human rights of women and children are allowed to continue the practice.

    Go to Utah or Arizona, Hugh, you’ll fit right in in either Concubine State.

    Texas is, however, a Free state for women. I’d suggest you stay very far away from it if you intend to practice or condone the human rights abuse of polygamy, because our law enforcement is NOT corrupt.

  565. “They were wrong, I WAS RIGHT, and having the right to defy LE when they overstep their bounds is part of what BEING AN AMERICAN IS ALL ABOUT.”

    So? I was right when I said I was a loving and protective mother. I’ve been right lots of times in my life when I still had to wait for someone else to prove to their own satisfaction that I was right. Heck, there are issues in my life that I’m right about that I will NEVER be told I’m right by the people who are wrong. The problem that I see is your need to be “right” and your desire to keep all governmental interference out of your life is more important to you than the fact that there are many children in this country who are in need of protection. I’ve gone to CPS meetings and expressed my concerns as a citizen many times. And I will still allow them free entry into my home, even though I guarantee you that I will be “right” if they ever come to investigate child abuse, because I want other children to be protected. If, for some reason, I believed that a CPS worker might have a vendetta against me, I’d make them wait until my brother in law, the family law lawyer, showed up to oversee their visit. (Which is my right.) You, well you just want to get in a pissing contest with them because you have a pathological need to prove you are right and someone else is wrong.

  566. Boots,

    There was no Sarah, whoever called wasn’t using a local number and they didn’t give a specific location. There are such things as hoax calls. Texas should have given up when they couldn’t find a Sarah. They should have asked the FLDS for a mulligan, said they were sorry and hit the bricks, but there is way too much price out there to do that, so they stuck to their guns.

    This is BAD precedent. You don’t want this raid to be the basis of another home entry but that’s what you will get if it’s not turned back.

    Additionally, IT IS IRRELEVANT that “Texas is a Free state for Women.” At least is SHOULD be. It should be a FREE STATE FOR AMERICANS. If women’s rights are treated better or worse in Texas than elsewhere, Texas is not free.

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  568. Price? I meant “pride”

  569. I have no problem with you talking to a login of profile of Betty on a public forum. I have an ENORMOUS problem with you talking to any form of my private self to whom you have not had a proper introduction. Please do not make any further attempt to contact the real me or my spouse or my family. Those contacts are harassment.

    In this context, it’s sort of expected. But.

    But you bring up a good point. You seem to be enjoying being angry and arguing for its own sake. You are using techniques of communication pretty much guaranteed to turn your audience here against you no matter what you say. The outcome should be expected to be the same as 100’s of times before. One has to wonder why. And I have to wonder why I bother to answer you. It’s really a waste of time for both of us.

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  572. Vulture wrote “If Betty were in charge, police would be kicking in in people’s doors right and left on the most flimsy of accusations…and she would be just fine with this.”

    Oh, dear. You aren’t even being original.

  573. Suits the sh*t out of me. Now can you go rant on your own blog and leave us talking about rational stuff with cement and chemist, please?

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  575. “There was no Sarah,”

    Yes there were a couple of Sarah’s in the right age range. And there WAS a Theresa, in plain sight since they were interviewing teen age girls.

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  577. vulture Vomit:

    ” one of the few people in this dog fight who is rational and NOT given to name calling.

    snip

    If those who frequent this site and Caput etc etc””

    My word, a hypocrit who cant keep it straight in one single post.

    Vulture rants against name calling and then OOOPS does it.

    What a guy! Drama QUEEN fer sure!

  578. “That amounts to no right at all to be free from illegal search and seizure, it just makes it words to look at on a piece of paper.”

    So women can be beaten to death just as long as no man anywhere ever has his rights threatened? Or do we do two things – go in and help the women AND investigate the source of the tip.

    Society is given the responsibility of helping those who cannot help themselves. The woman’s shelter in my area is named after a woman who was killed by her husband AFTER she had a restraining order and AFTER he had already been arrested for abusing her and then subsequently released on bail. If that woman called to say that her husband was in the driveway, should the cops spend hours or maybe days tracing phone calls, pulling files to see if any false reporters ever used this MO, checking the woman’s criminal history…

    You are revealing yourselves more and more as people who value the privacy of men much higher than the lives of women.

  579. “There is no Betty so I cannot talk to someone who isn’t there. If there was a Betty it would be a violation of Vermont law to talk to it.”

    Awwww, isn’t it cute, Betty? You called him on his cyberstalking and bullying and now he’s pouting at you. I really hope you don’t have any other children, Hugh. You really don’t have much chance of raising them to be mature adults when you never grew up yourself.

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  581. Hugh – Your post is in violation and your tone has become nasty. This post has been removed. Further violations will result in banning. – ADMIN

  582. Talk about painful morons.

    Hugh and Vomit whine about the little rules they invent, then simply turn around and violate them without a second thought.

    Charming QUEENS they both are!

  583. Discussion continued on #14

  584. There are many gaps in what we know. I am not interested in going off into a fantasy land constructing pictures to fill in those gaps. We could go any number of ways – police conspiracy, FLDS conspiracy, random SNAFU, dedicated crazy person did it solo.

    But I prefer to wait for due process and trust in the American way. If the warrants are thrown out (which I doubt), then we will just continue to pray for the victims, donate money to those who are helping them, raise awareness about them, talk to politicians about them.

    In the meantime, I think there are much worse attacks on our freedoms that you folks seem unconcerned about. The Patriot Act, for instance. Why does THIS one bother you? Hmmmmm?

  585. “Yes, but they shouldn’t have been there. Rules again Rebeckah. Besides that I don’t think they have claimed, even yet, to have based the second warrant on “seeing Teresa.” Any “Teresa.” There was no “Theresa” as I recall.”

    Yeah, I spelled it right, Hugh. Clean your glasses and read it again.

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    UPDATE: Further posts by “Vulture” will be held in MODERATION.

    – ADMIN

  587. Y’know, sometimes I wish I was the kind of vindictive person who would go to a blog like Hugh’s or Vulture’s and throw their poo right back at them. Then I remember I’m an adult and that Kharma is bound to come around on them after all.

    Betty, have you considered contacting your local cyber-police? It seems to me that by sending you a Facebook message after you specifically told him he was not welcome to contact you AND when coupled with the blogs he made and then tried to delete (good for you, by the way, for copying them) that you have a pretty reasonable case for cyberstalking. I think you should report him. Maybe we’ll get lucky and a judge will ban him from computers for a few years.

  588. I’m sure Huge Ego will now blog [ad nauseum] about the censorship he faces when he is here. Of course,he’ll leave out most of the pertinent parts as to WHY he got kicked. Maybe 1 or 2 of reader’s will see it and care. As for me….bye bye for now. Vulture, too.

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    UPDATE:

    FURTHER POSTS by the “Pharisee” will be held in MODERATION until further notice.

    – ADMIN

  590. Soozie

    Hugh has no room to whine about censorship – nor does Bill.

    Both are so heavy handed with deleting posts that discussions arent even happening there anyway.

    Both of their blogs have posting after posting with only 0, 1, or 2 posts, and they personally make up half their blog posts, and the other half are mostly anon which they claim they despise.

    Vulture? He is just a nut that’s wound too tightly. He flew off to stink up some other place, maybe he could chat with Hugh on his blog and they can talk about how cruel the world is to them.

    And in one day they could raise Hugh’s numbers 100 fold!

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