Open Discussion #12

Continued from Open Discussion #11


~ by FLDS TEXAS on August 25, 2009.

646 Responses to “Open Discussion #12”

  1. Ron — if you’re around, would it be possible to get an email address. Thanks.

  2. “Amazing the lengths one will go to rational what would normally be despicable behavior.”

    Funny, you didn’t seem to find it despicable when you did it yourself, AND spread the results of your violation of that poor girl’s privacy. I guess it’s okay when YOU choose to do it.

    “Lets assume that women’s journals could be read. There is not a shred of evidence that Warren read the personal diaries of the men…or women for that matter. He wouldn’t have the time to do it anyway.”

    Nice red herring. The poster didn’t say anything about Warren reading them, the poster spoke of the HUSBAND’S reading them. Presumably any problems could have been brought to Warren’s attention but the gist of your “argument” (and I use the term loosely) is arguing against a statement that wasn’t made. Is it intentional or are you truly that clueless about the basic rules of logical debate.

    Cajim, Duane is essentially an anarchist. It shines through his posts. He’s fairly chauvanistic too.

  3. “And, of course, using the gentile’s tactics, if anything ever does get to a final sale date, make sure it is burned to the ground or is made worthless so that the government or any other person seeking to profit from it won’t see anything for their complicity in this raping of the FLDS people by Wisan, his thugs, Lindberg, Shirtless, and company.”
    That post by CHansen on Brooke Adams’ blog really troubles me. Once again, was the torching of the historic Texas governor’s mansion a coincidence?

    Isaac Wyler and Shane Stubbs both experienced sustained vandalism during their leases of Berry Knoll. When Wee Willie moved in as a squatter, the vandalism stopped. It takes no real intelligence to figure out the source of the vandalism.

    But why on earth has Adams allowed that post—which is the ranting of a very disturbed mind—to stand? Has she lost her friggin’ mind?

  4. Rebeckah, IMO Duane is intentionally clueless.

    Warren didn’t have to read anyone’s journal, male or female. All he had to do was call them up and ask them to write a letter of confession to their sins, real or imagined.

  5. Help coming to some of the children of Short Creek.

    Grant funds program for kids from polygamous sects

    By Jennifer Dobner

    Associated Press
    Published: Tuesday, Aug. 25, 2009 4:10 p.m. MDT

    A tiny southern Utah nonprofit that helps women and children who leave the polygamous lifestyle has received a $40,000 grant from a women’s organization affiliated with the national Presbyterian Church.

    The funding about doubles the HOPE organization’s annual budget. The money will fund Jump Start, a life-skills program aimed at helping children ages 6 to 17 build self-esteem, develop interpersonal skills and understand mainstream society, HOPE President Elaine Tyler said.

    “We are so honored,” Tyler said. “It’s going to make a huge impact in the lives of some of these kids.”

    Three segments of Jump Start classes — in groups aged 6 to 9, 10 to 13 and 14 to 17 — begin Sept. 11 and last eight weeks. Tyler hopes to have about 25 kids enrolled. The grant is also paying for a facilitator to run the program and the rent for the facility where classes will be held.

    The grant is from the Creative Ministries Offering Committee of Presbyterian Women, which awards several Thank Offering grants annually.

  6. It will be interesting to see how many kids are enrolled.

  7. It sounds wonderful. I really hope some children get to benefit by it!

  8. duane said: Cement is ex-flds who is now against them. If these people truly lived in fear and terror, he would have already told us.

    Is this supposed to mean that cement knew EVERYTHING in everyone’s household at any given moment? He’d have known if the people were afraid or abused? That’s a tough statement to back up.

  9. Duane has never had the phone calls I have had from a “half-hearted” saint that has to be extremely careful.

    There. I told you.

  10. duane really does not believe the carp he posts. His outlandish comments are designed to get people stirred up and to respond to him. Nothing to see in his posts people, just a troll at work.

  11. Congratulations Elaine and HOPE org! Keep up the good work!

  12. FLDS Texas send it to my gmail account – user name ronlawhouston

  13. ale wife, I agree. It’s the ‘bad attention is better than none’ syndrome.

  14. Elaine has approx 45 children in her programs and she is a go-getter with a true desire to help.

    I really like her and wish her lots of congratulations on her grant!

  15. I agree Betty, with your comment of 8:18 AM, and with ale wife’s comment that preceeded yours. However, the space taken up by the subject of these posts is in fact being created by the people responding, the very people who are complaining about him/it. Communication should have a purpose, even fun happy communication should have a purpose. If there is no clear purpose, then it is mindless entertainment; a soul killer in the long run. And if there is no purpose to communication then silence is better. So my advice is to give the young man a piece of his own advocacy: “answer him nothing.”

  16. Yes, Judith you are right. But, I meditate, I burn incense and I still want to slap a beyotch. Sorry.

  17. Everyone needs a hobby and small minded people tend to stick with small minded hobbys like gossip, spreading rumors and talking trash about people they are far inferior to.
    Both sides can be accused of this.
    Obviously, you’d simply be wasting your money, like Warren is with his 15 trials coming up. He could plead guilty save millions and get easier sentences – BUT NO – they want hard time, evidently to prove a point
    I kinda think they prefer no time.
    HMMM how many YFZ elite residents were attending college, Ali!?!?
    Are you suggesting that the FLDS don’t pay for higher education for their children? You are aware aren’t you that they got Carolyn Jessop a Bachelor’s degree.

  18. Ali

    “They prefer no time”

    Sorry, that isnt one of the choices. They lost that chance when they broke the law.


    “What about Carolyn she got a Bachelor’s degree”

    WOW – One out of 10000? LMAO Well, I realize others have gone to College as well. But I’m talking YFZ residents.

    Who has attended? They were the elite and they were there for years, what was the problem?

    Right, Warren was the problem!

    “Answer them no test scores Warren”

  19. Agreed that I will ignore duane, deci, skinwalker and not respond to, or even read his posts going forward.

  20. Hey I’m with ya ale wife. Just remember some of the great and fun exchanges we’ve had on other topics. I’ve learned a lot from them, and will continue to do so. And Betty, I know the problem, I’m working on just that thing myself.

  21. Yes, Carolyn did get a degree, while pregnant and bearing her children. She stayed sick alot and it was only due to her persistence and determination that she got her degree. Merril certainly did not care if she got it or not.

    She is one example. However, NONE of the girls at the ranch had any higher education than 8th. And I doubt they would test 8th grade level. The 2 “Fawns” had completed 8th grade but only tested at 5th grade level.

    Why educate when you impregnate?

    They were busy learning what “keep sweet” means.

  22. Ali

    Yeah, BTW if you didnt notice, school started this week. I have two in college.

    Do I have more kids in college than the entire population of Yearning For Zippers Raunch?

    Seems like it. We know what they teach there, and its nothing that would help them survive in the “REAL WORLD”.

  23. Alin,

    When you have a ratio of 6 to 1 children to wage earners – most of them are not going to college. Yes, I’m betting their rate of college attendance is WELL below the national average. It might be similar to other people who have a similar per capita annual income (which BTW is very low). Add to that that there is no real reason to send a woman to higher education if all she’s going to do is raise babies and tend dairy cows.

    Carolyn had to do quite a lot of manipulation to get permission to go to college AND her husband is one of the most wealthy in the FLDS.

  24. She is one example. However, NONE of the girls at the ranch had any higher education than 8th.
    Really? When I was watching Ophrah it seemed that the girls was taking some sort of high school class.
    And I doubt they would test 8th grade level. The 2 “Fawns” had completed 8th grade but only tested at 5th grade level.
    All children tested was at or beyond target for their age.
    Do I have more kids in college than the entire population of Yearning For Zippers Ranch?
    Actually they may have had some residents who was residing at college and not at home during the raid in April. No way to know for sure really.

  25. I dont live near YFZ, where would the nearest college be?

    Too far to commute daily, I’m sure. And I dont see Warren or Merril giving any young wives the blessing to live off the Raunch at a college dorm.

    They didnt pick YFZ because of its proximity to good schools.

    Rather, the opposite, it seems!

  26. Alin,

    When you have a ratio of 6 to 1 children to wage earners – most of them are not going to college. Yes, I’m betting their rate of college attendance is WELL below the national average. It might be similar to other people who have a similar per capita annual income (which BTW is very low).
    Pretty interesting point Betty. You may consider lobbying to make college mandatory and have either mandatory that the parents pay for it or have higher level education paid for by the taxpayers.

  27. Ali

    We have laws that make it mandatory for girls to grow up and not be the teenth wife of some geezer, but guess what?

    Thats right, the FLDS dont care!

    Suppose they will care when they are in their tenth year of a 40 year prison sentence, though!

  28. Since we are so concerned about education it appears that Texans have some catching up to do.

    Utah students top U.S. in Advanced Placement tests
    Education » More minority students taking, passing exam.
    Thats right, the FLDS dont care!
    As long as the girl is within the legal age of consent in the jurisdiction she lives in neither do I.

  29. The 2 Fawns were not at the ranch, Aliknowsnothing.

    And nah, we aren’t lobbying for mandatory college. We are lobbying for no more child rapes and pregnancies within their group. We think that’s more important.

  30. Alin a talented, advancing and educating student with aptitude, a thirst for knowledge and dreams of professional career should not be laid to waste because of the limitation imposed by religious dogma or a prophets personal choice.

    They espouse that there is a freedom to chose but leave out that there is a physical, financial and doctrinal persuasion against attaining higher education, just another one of their genuinely insincere comments meant to deceive the Gentiles.

  31. Alin:

    Are your grammatical skills (or lack thereof) representative of the quality of FLDS education? Show me the proof, or I’ll never believe FLDS kids test at or above their grade level.

    BTW, Carolyn Jessop had to fight to get permission to attend college, and even then, Merrill sent one of his daughters with her as a spy to report back to him on her activities.

  32. Alin this SLTrib article is about achieving ‘Advanced Placement'(AP) test credits which are administered to high schoolers and not grammar schoolers, they receive college credits if they pass the AP examination(s). This isn’t about FLDS students or their student abilities at all? Are you that checked out that you point to a High School AP test credited toward college and think it reflects in any way on the FLDS students? The average marrying age for LDS Church female members is 20 years of age and rising because more girls are attending college than ever before now.

  33. Whether or not a young person goes to college should not be decided by his/her pastor, or even by the parents, but certainly not by a 20 year older assigned husband already married to X other wives.

  34. Some states have a junior college program, originally designed to help gifted kids who are bored by high school, that allows a certain number of high school electives to be taken via the community college. Although the students don’t generally get college credit for them, it DOES help to get accepted into a college program if you have shown that you can pass college level classes. This is the ‘back door’ often used by home schoolers. My husband has two adult children with college degrees who never graduated from high school; one is working on his PhD. All five of his home schooled kids have attended at least some junior college with credit and none of them have either a high school diploma or a G.E.D. Whether or not an employer accepts that as a high school level education or not is another question.

  35. San Angelo has a University. Most cities now have accredidated tech schools to for young adults.

  36. Betty

    What you said is 100% true. My son is technically a senior in High School but since his junior year has been attending junior college in a dual credit program. He started this in connection with our local school district but after some problems with the administration, he’s now doing a dual credit with the junior college and Ron High.

  37. My grandson took TWO college course in Each of his Jr and Sr years in high School and got college credit for them. He now attends college.

  38. Cajim

    Not only that, but the spy was doing everything she could to sabatoge Carolyn.

    I tend to think under Barbara’s orders. But the complaints to Merril went ignored.

  39. Having been through it, I high school aged kids should not be home schooled. And not that the home schoolers are not socialized, whatever that means, but that one of the important things school teaches you is that you have to get up every work day, you have to do something your boss wants you to do even if it’s stupid, and if it’s due on Tuesday then you better turn it in on Tuesday. Oh, and the world in general does not think you are as special as your parent’s think you are. Most home schoolers who flunk out of college fail on one of those points, not on algebra.

    Just my opinion, not mandatory, Alin.

  40. Are you sure you don’t want to lobby to make it a law, Betty? 😉

  41. All children tested was at or beyond target for their age.
    I have a problem with all and never, but I’ll assume this is a correct statement. Does that mean only the elite’s children were there, and those that weren’t studious enough were sent elsewhere until they qualified for Zion–IOW, separated from parents?

  42. Actually “all” the children from YFZ were NOT academically tested, the testing was STARTED on a FEW of the children in one of the group homes but the testing was not finished and the results were not back before the children were returned to their FLDS caretakers. Of the FEW that testing was STARTED for those results indicated that those FEW children were at state standard grade level for their age.

  43. Correct LadySadie,, Not all the children in shelters were tested, there wasn’t enough time.

  44. All children tested was at or beyond target for their age.

    Want to cite something that substantiates this claim? I’m like cement, the “All” part makes the statement suspect. Further, the kids were split far and wide so there would have been no comprehensive testing to prove that “all” the children tested one way or another.

    I could see X number of children at so and so foster home “all” testing at or above, but I can’t even find any cite that says this.

  45. Is it not obvious that Carolyn’s sharing that Warren S. Jeffs was all about ratcheting up his control and having an increasing say in the decisions within the individual families.
    What better way to impose one’s increasing will than to create a gulag removed from the existing congregation and make the membership more exclusive than the general congregation. I am talking about the designation of ‘Temple-builders’ and the invitation to come to the ‘Land of Refuge’. Warren’s revelation about the FLDS flock becoming a scattered group wasn’t shared with everyone at Short Creek and that God had rejected the location of Short Creek as the gathering place was knowledge held by the elect taken to the ‘Land of Refuge’ and not the balance of FLDS members. Seems the predicament now is with the church leadership having one foot in the ‘Land of Refuge’ and the other still in Short Creek they a betwixt-and between with the greater Gentile Press & Public fully aware of their attempts at exiting their historical enclaves for new hideouts. Secondly, they need all the tithes to sustain their legal battles and have to defend the UEPTrust that they were in the process of abandoning. Given, more convictions of Warren and other ‘Temple-builders’ the fat will be in the fire over who and how the church was brought into this imploding consequence(s). The legal pressures, financial costs and disastrous results are sure to bring even more schisms between haves and have nots & invited and uninvited members.

  46. Cement, I think we all know now, only the “hand Picked ” by Warren were allowed to go to YFZ ranch. His dictations made that clear. He had no problem taking children from mothers in Short Creek and delivering them down to Texas, telling the mothers they would never see their children again.
    The gall of ANY ignorant asshole like that, makes me want to puke!!

  47. cajim

    Warren Jeffs ascent and rule just smacks of things from the Dictator 101 playbook. It’s been alleged that he was fascinated with Hitler and it seems that he borrowed more than a few pages from Hitler.

    Just look at it. He exiles some little old man who may have a superior claim to being the prophet. He excommunicates family members who may have some hereditary claim. He excommunicates influential members who could convince others that his reign is illegitimate. Then he cloisters and keeps close those most loyal of members.

    All he needed to do was make certain that male members at YFZ wore brown shirts.

  48. Rebeckah,

    I have to pick my battles. I WOULD like to repeal my state’s religious exemption from education statute, but then I’d much rather see adequate funding for the women’s shelter that serves 7 different rural counties.

  49. I think the men at YFZ should wear pink shirts myself.

    That say “Wussies” on the front, and “Cowards & Pedophiles” on the back .

  50. Betty, I was using you to tease Duane and Alin since those two like the constant refrain of “You want to legislate…” or “The government has no business…”

    I thought the winking smiley face would make that clear. Sorry. 😉

  51. If you have an opinion on something, obviously you want to round people up with machine guns and Alsatians and force them to comply with that opinion. I got it. I was just stuck on the idea of home schooling still. And I’ve been on a fitness/diet thing for two weeks now and I’m coming in and out of focus with my blood sugar. Which reminds me. I think I’ll go put bison burgers on the grill and make a salad.

  52. Here is a post deb lee made over at Bill’s site with respect to Duane:

    You certainly are not exaggerating when you call them bigots and haters. Some of them are connected to the KKK.

    Duane sent me an email a few weeks ago which included a note he had posted on one of their blogs. He wanted me to read it before the blogger had an opportunity to erase it. In his note, Duane stated that the woman (who also posts at the TexasFLDS website) admitted that her father belonged to the KKK. Instead of learning from the error of her father’s ways and working to improve the lives of all Americans, the blogger promotes hatred of Mormons, especially Mormon Fundamentlists.

    I thought it was kind of cute when Duane posted, “Like father, like daughter.”

    This same female blogger posted at the TexasFLDS that she thought I am “mean.” Well, if working to help free the captive FLDS children and to prevent the state of Texas from committing genocide makes me “mean,” then I plead guilty.


    HMMMM…..which one of us is a KKK? Of course it is garbled but my guess this is Duane yanking some Deb Lee’s chains –

  53. Alin a talented, advancing and educating student with aptitude, a thirst for knowledge and dreams of professional career should not be laid to waste because of the limitation imposed by religious dogma or a prophets personal choice.
    Sure. And the taxpayers should foot the bill for all talented individuals who wish to attain some sort of higher education using your argument.

  54. I think the men at YFZ should wear pink shirts myself.


    Are You Tough Enough to Wear Pink?” became the $1 million question proudly answered by the western industry during the 2006 Wrangler Nationial Finals Rodeo. With the Wrangler brand at the helm, cowboys, cowgirls, rodeos, retailers and manufacturers were motivated to raise awareness and money for breast cancer research in 2006.

  55. I think you missed the point Alinusara!

  56. DD ali-oop is just being deliberately obtuse.

  57. Nah! Just interjecting a bit of humor.

  58. Fundamentalists are one of the few religions that I am aware of that purposely limits the education level of their congregation. Does that have anything to do with that “Keep Sweet” axiom. I guess sheeple kept down on the Felony Farm don’t get any ideas if their education level is cut off in 8th Grade and childhood ends at menses for the Child Brides. Economists have proven that college tuitions is one of the best investments society can make in enriching American dominance and advanced technologies in the world economy. Alin 50% of existing American tuition scholarships go unclaimed every year and I didn’t suggest that the taxpayer foot the bill, even though the Fundies have made it plain to their children that they won’t pay for it. Gotta keep that Victorian Era goin’, you know.

  59. If you want a fundementalist belief, I don’t have a problem with that, as long as your belief isn’t forced on a whole community! As long as a town isn’t discriminatory towards those who don’t have the same beliefs. In other words, its not the basic tenet of the constitution that a town be allowed to kick people out because they don’t believe the same way Flds do. When a religion starts taking families from husbands, you have stepped over the line of the husbands civil rights.

  60. Fundamentalists are one of the few religions that I am aware of that purposely limits the education level of their congregation.
    Really? The primer says differently:

    Some parents encourage their teens to graduate from high school early and to begin college before their graduating class.

  61. ….you have stepped over the line of the husbands civil rights.
    I’ve always figured that the husband’s civil rights is violated the most when the wife, without a police report or a shred of evidence files for and receives a restraining order alleging domestic violence.

  62. Ali said: “Some parents encourage their teens to graduate from high school early and to begin college before their graduating class.

    Alinusara10 said this on August 26, 2009 at 6:23 PM ”


  63. Alin, where do you live ?? Because Ive never heard of getting a restraining order against anyone without evidence, whether it be a police report, emails, voice mails of harrassment or threats.

    Maybe that happened to you, but Ive never heard of that. You must live in Utah??? LOL

  64. First of all Alin, we all know your NOT a woman. So you must be some disgruntled MALE!

  65. DD, ali-oop has already admitted several times that he is a male.

  66. Judge Shumate September 11,2009

    JURY TRIAL HUR 091500436 Other Misdemeanor
    OTN: 32530537 DOB: 08/06/1989

  67. Judge Shumate September 9,2009

    PRETRIAL CONFERENCE HUR 061501727 State Felony
    OTN: DOB: 11/01/1977
    F1 – RAPE – 07/28/06

  68. Judge Rand Beecham September 9,2009

    PRETRIAL CONFERENCE HUR 061501727 State Felony
    OTN: DOB: 11/01/1977
    F1 – RAPE – 07/28/06

  69. Fundamentalists are one of the few religions that I am aware of that purposely limits the education level of their congregation.
    Really? The primer says differently:


    See if you are intelligent enough to draw the analogy.

    Bill Gates and is met by Peter who asks him whether he wants heaven or Hades. He asks for a demo of both. In heaven he sees a bunch of slow boring. In Hades, he sees a bunch of scantily clan bikinis and a Party. He chooses Hades. A few weeks later, a disgruntled Gates complains to Peter. Peter tells him, “The real thing isn’t like the demo, is it?”

  70. Judge Rand Beecham09:01 AM REVIEW HEARING HIL 081501332 State Felony
    OTN: 31507767 DOB: 02/08/1980
    F3 – BURGLARY – 07/30/08
    F3 – THEFT – 07/30/08
    September 9,2009

  71. Wow! Too many typos–lets try again. The point is, what is put out in a primer and what is reality isn’t always the same.

    Bill Gates dies and is met by Peter who asks him whether he wants heaven or Hades. He asks for a demo of both. In heaven he sees slow boring music. In Hades, he sees a bunch of scantily clan bikinis and people partying. He chooses Hades. A few weeks later, a disgruntled Gates complains to Peter. Peter tells him, “The real thing isn’t like the demo, is it?”

  72. Judge Rand Beecham August 31,2009

    ROLL CALL STG 091500932 State Felony
    OTN: 32540999 DOB: 07/20/1984
    SCHOOL/PUBLIC P – 05/31/09

  73. I absolutely agree with everything Betty said about home schooling. But we aren’t going to get rid of it. At the minimum, states should require that home-schooled children be taught to the state curriculum and take and pass all standardized tests administered to public-school children.

    I imagine it’s fairly simple to home-school young kids (if they don’t have learning disabilities). Pretty much everyone can read, write and do sums, and transmitting that information isn’t that difficult. But by high school, kids are learning things I’m not qualified to teach. For example, all of the major work in DNA and RNA sequencing occurred after I took my last biology class. I am unable to think about biology in modern terms at all—how could I possibly teach it?

    And Betty skipped over the socialization part, but I think that’s critical as well.

  74. My son was being harassed last year. Even with two police reports and a stack of hate mail, we were unable to get a restraining order.

    If someone got a restraining order against you, Alin, you must have been being a real twit.

  75. Alin a talented, advancing and educating student with aptitude, a thirst for knowledge and dreams of professional career should not be laid to waste because of the limitation imposed by religious dogma or a prophets personal choice.
    Sure. And the taxpayers should foot the bill for all talented individuals who wish to attain some sort of higher education using your argument.

    What is the connection between having a choice and taxpayer funding?

    Now having said that, the great State of Texas allowed me to attend college and law school for a tuition of $4 per semester hour. So, clearly, the taxpayers of Texas funded my higher education.

    So, I had a choice as well as taxpayer funding.

  76. Alin, that’s just too funny, the primer says different. Why don’t you go for a stroll on the T-Bird SUU campus and count the fundies in prarie dresses, they won’t be hard to find because your not going to see any, so funny. Put that in your primer.

  77. HMMMM…..which one of us is a KKK? Of course it is garbled but my guess this is Duane yanking some Deb Lee’s chains

    Kdee’s father or stepfather was KKK, she says so on her blog.
    Several YFZ women have higher education, many are nurses and certified teaches, some are accountants.

  78. duane said: Several YFZ women have higher education, many are nurses and certified teaches, some are accountants.

    If memory serves… these women all got their educatipn BEFORE WJ put an end to higher learning. They are the exceptions.

  79. And contrary to alin’s assertions of college bound FLDS, I doubt the girls [or boys for that matter] are lining up for the new semester at the local college. As has been touched on previously, I also doubt many would scholastically make the grade. If your transcripts [if any exist] only show bible teachings, that doesn’t qualify for a high school diploma.

  80. I live in Utah and I attend court hearings a lot. I have been to hundreds of Protective Order hearings and many Temporary Restraining Order hearings – including Willie Jessop’s TRO hearing against Sam Brower.

    Trust me, the judges here demand evidence – and lots of it – to rule on the orders.

    If it isn’t iron clad etched in stone and slapping the judge in the face that there was abuse or potential future danger, then the person does not get the TRO or the PO. There has to be evidence (police report, victim testimony, etc.) or the judge doesn’t issue the order.

    That is why Willie didn’t get his TRO against Sam because there was no evidence of abuse or danger nor a police report, etc.

  81. All the children tested did not test at grade level. Merrianne tested well below grade level and that was a major concern in her case because they wouldnt send her to public school and the private tutor that was provided could not get her up to grade level in any reasonable amount of time.

  82. Merrianne probably had to quit the school on the ranch when she married WJ at 12, so no wonder she tested below grade level and with what they were teaching the school, its no wonder many are below grade level. LeRoy Jessop’s wife didn’t know how to count cuz she didn’t even know how old she was. At the time of the interview I saw, she would have been 16 or barely 17 and he told her she was 18. She already had a child, so I’m sure her education had been halted when she became a wife also.

  83. Warren is responsible for the dumbing down of the flds.

    But the education he is getting right now, is one he deserves.

  84. Do you think Warren would lock up a mother and parcel out her children away from her for asking that her 14 year old be allowed to first get an education before becoming his (WJ’s) breeding heifer?

  85. Uncle Thread: I absolutely believe warren would do this. warren cannot tolerate any dissent from his goofy edicts. People who do dissent are 1. kicked out, 2. sent to places of hiding for reducation, 3 sent on work missions in distant states where most of their pay is withheld and is sent to warren as a consecration.

    No wonder very few flds people openly criticize warren. As cement said, the flds who do are suddenly no longer flds, but are ex flds and are apostates.

  86. I didn’t take the bit about asking how old she was to be not knowing how old she was, but rather asking if it was OK to say how old she was. She was asking “Do I get you in trouble or tell a lie?” Answer “Tell a lie.”

  87. I nominate Alinusara for the invisible ignore button. I’m done with the deliberate and boring obfuscation.

  88. I agree Betty. Maybe a canned response like:

    We refuse to dignify you, Alin, with an intelligent, well thought out answers. Trolls don’t rate responses. (Just so anyone passing through isn’t confused by the psudo intellectualism and reason that Alin likes to try and portray.

  89. Betty and Rebeckah: I agree with your approach to alin. I might simplify for me to: “I don’t feed trolls and I don’t educate the uneducateable”

  90. Individuality is the foundation for reform and without freedom individuality is sacrificed on the altar of security. In the words of Benjamin Franklin, “Anyone willing to trade freedom for security deserves neither freedom nor security.” Mormon fundamentalism does not deserve the security or the protection of the constitution unless it is willing to establish a freer environment, one that offers equal opportunity to its members. It can reform itself and must reform itself by respecting individuality and freedom as the cornerstones of lasting societies.

    This was written by Susanna Barlow who was brought up FLDS.

  91. Regarding FLDS education:

    In my visits to Hildale/Colorado City, I didn’t meet one woman who I would call brainwashed. The women I talked to were as self-aware and confident as any I have met anywhere. They talked about how the women support each other and the sense of family and completeness they get from being in a polygamous world.

    Several women told me that if they wanted to leave their lives, they could at any time. One pointed out that she had gone away to college, to Southern Utah University, and that no one compelled her to come back but that she couldn’t wait to get back to Hildale after college.

    Most have graduated from college (which usually means going away to school), many have multiple degrees and some have graduate degrees. They will discuss for hours the tenets of their faith, and they are fiercely protective of their choices and their families.

    Also, most of the students at Mohave community college in SC are FLDS members, that is why the College refused to renew the Sheriff’s dept. property lease. They had to remove their trailer from the campus. If I remember correctly, they even stopped the Safety Net committee from meeting on the campus citing their decision not to mix politics with education…something to that effect.

    FLDS Texas, I think you got Edson Jessop confused with Edson Holm. EHolm is the one who passed away.

  92. Likewise, Mormon fundamentalism has reached a pivot point. It has fully exhausted its resources and its ideals. It will either reform itself or it will fall. Like empires of the past that have imploded because of hubris and denial of freedoms Mormon fundamentalism has become top-heavy. It is an authority driven society that limits freedom and creates spiritual dependency. Solidarity is based upon twin fears: fear of the outside world and fear of rejection from within. Individuals within Mormon fundamentalism must challenge the system and allow the old to die to make room for the new.

    She also wrote this

  93. Duhduane your Arizona Republic article was an opinion piece by Jack Kurtz a photojournalist and not a field journalist reporting the facts and news. Yes he seemed to be impressed with the Fred Jessop upon his first and only meeting, what an insightful and thinly documented article, based on his first impressions. Why don’t you quote informed field reporters that have covered the FLDS Church for a decade or more and can give a truly informed journalistic view? Like say Mike Watkiss, award winning reporter, of the ,’Polygamy Diaries’ who holds the exact opposite view that education is liberally encouraged and many adult FLDS members achieve higher education. Nice try Duhduane, totally halfway informed as usual.

  94. Those who have no respect for our US Constitution, should the US Constitution shelter them with respect in return? In what cases? Why or Why not?

  95. “Why don’t you quote informed field reporters that have covered the FLDS Church for a decade or more and can give a truly informed journalistic view?”

    Cause they would tell a different story?

  96. The constitution should be applied the same for everyone. So should state and local laws.

  97. Most of the students a Mohave Community College is located in several locations, One of which is colorado City,, however duane, I don’t know where you dug up that FLDS are attending the school in droves…
    I doubt there is more than ONE or two Flds enrolled. Most of the students enrolled are from Centinnel Park, or other polgyamy groups. As far as I know the Flds haven’t gone to wearing shorts for girls or boys, and all the pictures of the kids on campus are in shorts.
    Nice try duane…. LOL

  98. I live 30 miles from CC. My coworkers and I took a Microsoft Outlook class at Mohave Community College a few years ago. From what I can tell from their Fall schedule, the only courses offered that are not online are a few nursing classes, GED prep and a few English courses taught by Don Timpson.

    I’ve known a few people from Fredonia and Kanab who’ve taken EMT and nursing courses there.

  99. Plus the fact there is ONE, duane ONE, small building in CC for Mohave Community College. So Im sure the school isn’t like crowded or gained substantial students.

  100. deputydawg, the NORTH Mohave Campus is in CC, They specifically cited complaints from locals about the trailer and noted their enrollment dipped, presumably because of its presence. The only ones who have an issue with the sheriff’s presence are FLDS since they are the targets of their little witch hunts. Also, when the sheriff sent all his deputies up to harass the residents as result of Willie pissing him off, one of their favorite targets were students driving off the campus. Your photos of students in shorts proves nothing.

  101. Oh come ON DUANE!!! LOL you can do better than that!!! Please!! the only person complaining was FAT ASS WILLIE!!

  102. Are you kidding me duane?? The staff of colorado city Mohave Community College arent Flds, they are from Centinnel Park.. And guess what? They have hired a new staff member this year, and she is very educated,, and Black!!
    Tell me duane,,how many Flds will be enrolled in that college with a black professor?

  103. He was a contender for prophet, the highest post in the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He was also a child molester. Hammon said her father began abusing her when she was about 5. This was the same father who would deliver stern Sunday sermons on purity, propriety and, above all, unquestioning obedience of wives to husbands, children to parents and everyone to the prophet. “I knew it was wrong,” she said. “… But they were all doing it.” One former FLDS member, a woman who asked not to be identified because she still lived nearby, said she knew of such child abuse but did nothing. “One of my girls had an experience with my husband, and I got angry and was making a fuss, and one of the sister wives said he was confused and thought my daughter was his wife,” she said. “I told myself: As long as God upholds him, I will.”

    This is Sara Hammon’s life in Flds Duane, she hasn’t written any book…

  104. Sara Hammon saw some of her sisters pulled out of school to be married to men they didn’t know. She dreaded a similar fate. And so, she ran away from home before she was old enough to drive legally. She left behind 19 mothers, 74 siblings, and a father she says could never remember her name, even though he repeatedly molested her

  105. “Probably the worst part of the whole theology,” she said, “is the treatment of women and teaching women that they are not equal to men.” “They have to have a husband in order to get to the highest degree of heaven, and not only a husband but they have to allow the husband to have two other wives,” she added.

  106. “My dad had 75 children and 19 wives, so we were one of the larger families,” she said. “They had to segregate us (by gender) because there is an incest problem in Colorado City. It’s difficult to keep an eye on that many children.”

  107. Dudduane your reposting and mischaracterization on Bile Madvecky’s blog is a rude lie. We discuss here the legal rights violated while the UEPTrust was under Prophet’s Jeffs administration. Denise Lindberg’s actions are legal and proper and doesn’t reflect on the FLDS member’s abilities to think for themselves nor require our rescue. You are a liar to state such bile on Madvecky’s blog and this isn’t the first time that you have misrepresented what people post here, either. The trust laws were being violated and the Court was forced to act by assuming control of the UEPTrust, that’s a fact not some hysterical reaction by the Court. The felon Warren S. Jeffs hasn’t filed any actions concerning the UEPTrust, why is that a fact, when you have no defense and you were in violation of the law you,”Answer Them Nothing’ because it can and will be used as evidence in the courtroom.

  108. Sara said by the time she was fourteen, she had been physically, sexually, and psychologically abused by no less than 12 male members of her family.

  109. I choose to not feed the duane troll nor to read his carp fantasies.

  110. Cajim, plenty of anti-plyg posters have said that stripping the FLDS from control of their trust was good for the beneficiaries and that they are too cowed to praise Wisan, or that they don’t appreciate that this is all for their own good, its best for them, yada yada…

  111. That is really sad about Sarah Hammon. Abuse happens everyday and cuts across all sections of the population.

  112. duane

    “He was a contender for prophet, the highest post in the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He was also a child molester. Hammon said her father began abusing her when she was about 5. This was the same father who would deliver stern Sunday sermons on purity, propriety and, above all, unquestioning obedience of wives to husbands, children to parents and everyone to the prophet. “I knew it was wrong,” she said. “… But they were all doing it.””

    So the type of abuse on Sarah happens across all lines?

    Especially when there is a Church leader involved huh? Guess what happens to the Church leaders?

    Ask Tony Alamo!

  113. Ask Mark Foley or former house reps Dan Crane and Gerry Studds

  114. duane, Bill Medvecky while he is spewing his fury on anyone who disagrees with his assessment of Flds,, and keeps posting pictures of little children of Flds on his site, He needs to imagine all those little children being abused sexually, physcially, emotionally by the so called “parents, or family members” he so think are so great!!!

    There are TOOOOOO many adults who have come out of FLDS, KNOWING abuses were happening, and still are. The list grows longer daily.
    Medvecky is an abuser himself!! He isn’t fighting for children, he is fighting for Bill Medvecky!! He hates the fact he was sent to prison for a felony and had his foster child taken away,, and this is just an effort for HIS cause, NOT NOT NOT the cause of abuse of children.

  115. Duane could you tell me what good their “trust” was doing for them?

    The person that took their “trust” away wasn’t Bruce Wisan but Warren Jeffs and his crew. Where was spokesperson Willie when Warren was trading it all in for the Cult Ranch in Texas? Was Willie speaking up for the people then?

    The other spokesperson Rod Parkers voice seemed to also be absent when they were wheeling and dealing wasn’t it?

    Thousands of people showed up at the courthouse to voice an opinion about a piece of property men and women. Where were their voices when Ruby was missing? Where were their voices when Ruth got hauled off? Where were those mens voices when it came time to claim those children.

    Duane you are howling at the moon I tell ya. How is BillM these days?

    Love Walton

  116. A while ago I posted a quote from Thomas Jefferson but it got lost…the point that he made is that when you have relationships of hugely unequal power it enhances abuse. This is because those in power come to feel unique (hence God tells ME to do stuff other people can’t do). It breeds within those holding such power an inability to think of others as real or valuable and therefore makes abuse of those people that much easier.

    So when you have a societal system that is designed to focus power (education, money, salvation) on a few it will likely lead to HIGHER amounts of abuse. I suspect, and believe that the evidence from cult (alamo, FLDS, and others) supports my suspicion, that higher amounts of abuse does occur.

    In order for me NOT to believe that the cult should be dismantled in its entirety I would have to see real data indicating that there is no greater degree of abuse within those societies. I think the burden of proof lies on them, not on the greater society. And the reason I say that is because of the past history of documented murder, abuse, etc., that seems to follow all of the fundamentalist mormons.

    Saying that yes – the outside society has incidences of this, cite person here, to me is insufficient.

  117. Deputydog said it best. BillM is fighting his own cause. He is using the FLDS to howl louder.

    BillM is a pot stirrer.

  118. Regarding the disenrollment of FLDS at MCC, it was Warren Jeffs who dictated that all faithful members pull out of that school and stop supporting the appostates. He did this 10 or 15 years ago at the same time he pulled everyone in the FLDS out of all colleges. It had nothing to do with the Mohaves County Multi-purpose buildings being there, as they weren’t there at that time. It seems that Willie has made a deal with MCC now though. After the lease was not renewed on those facilities, and very recently, several hundred FLDS members enrolled at MCC. The FLDS want to forget the past edicts of their “past” prophet, and have a new game going. One that is much more media and puplic friendly.

  119. Deputy, thank you for mentioning Susanna Barlow’s book. I highly recommend it for those who haven’t read it. It is called “What Peace There May Be” and can be bought on

    I found the constant abuse and neglect she lived through as a child to be very troubling to read about. But it is a WONDERFUL memoir.

    Her father went on to become one of the leaders of Centennial Park after the split in the mid-80’s. That is the same polygamous group that Sara Hammon’s father, J. Marion Hammon (the child molester), founded. Yep, they are a real “godly” group themselves!

  120. Its not just Sara Hammon Duane, its Ruth Stubbs, Ruth Cooke, the Mackert girls, Tamara Phelps, Susanna Barlow, Pam Black,Margaret Cooke, Lenore Holm, Fawn Holm, Fawn Broadbent , Brian Mackert, Kathleen Mackert, Mary Mackert, Paula Mackert. And what about Stephanie Lynn Olsen??? She actually wrote a letter to the governor of Arizona.. And gave deposition… Nothing and no one helped her.

  121. Who is Stephanie Lynn Olsen?

  122. Stephanie Olsen, went to Kingman to files charges, without telling anyone. When she returned, 3 Elders spent 3 hours interrogating her, then told her she couldn’t remain with her children or husband, and was sent to the meeting annex for those other families in distress.
    Two days after she moved into the annex, Lional Bates attacked and raped her in the shower, knocked out her two front teeth. She was refused help, or treated in the infirmary..
    Her brother in the dark of night drove her to kingman az. No law enforcement contacted her, even though she reported the rape.

    What the HELL DOES IT TAKE DUANE????????

  123. annon @ 1:29 talks about a “new game” going. Actually it really isn’t a new game. Just different actors and a different name.

    Mary Batchelor and Heidi Mattingly Kingston are playing an old game with new players. One of them being Mark Shurtleff . jmo

    Is anyone familiar with the Knudson boys?

  124. Deputy, you forgot to mention Laura Chapman. She was also Clyde Mackert’s daughter and was sexually molested by him, as was her sister Rena Mackert. And you forgot to mention Laurene Jessop – her father abused her, too.

  125. Sorry Anonymous,, there are SOOOO many!!! Hard to remember them all.

  126. More about Stephanie Olsen :

    The Attorney General’s Office has received 13 complaints over the last two years, the memo states. The most recent is from Stephanie Lynn Olsen.

    On April 16, 2002, Olsen sent a letter begging Napolitano to take action.

    “Please help the women and children trapped in Colorado City,” her letter begins.

    Olsen’s letter states she is in hiding in Mesa and “in fear for my life.”

    Her letter describes a terrifying ordeal that began after she complained to the Mohave County Sheriff’s Office in October 2000 concerning the rape of her 15-year-old cousin by a member of the powerful Jessop family in Colorado City.

    Upon her return to Colorado City, Olsen states in her letter to Napolitano that she, too, was severely beaten and raped.

    “I don’t have my front teeth anymore,” she states.

    The letter states that Olsen left her two children in Colorado City and that she fears they are being punished.

    “Their father is my uncle,” her letter states.

  127. exactly Txbluesman!!! And bill served time in prison in New York for a felony.
    The man needs to be locked up permanantly!!

  128. DD/TBM BillM holds to a near maniacal hatred of CPS and our Judicial System, particularly female Judges, which to me indicates that he was likely sentenced/convicted by a female magistrate. He in many ways still sits within his mental cell trapped by his criminal acts and convictions, proclaiming his innocence and trying to ameliorate his guilt. His hatred, vengeance and bile fills his criminal mind to a heart rendering degree, he is a very emotionally and psychologically damaged felon, very sad I pity him.

  129. Well, said, cajim.

  130. Interesting post cajlm. Don’t you think that some of Bills issues might have concerned his childhood? He had issues way before his arrest and prison time. imo

    I know his daughter has read his site and participated in the many petitions. He often spoke of his son who was in the military who “supports” his father. But does he really?

    I often thought that rericson was Bills sister.

  131. Did yall know this?

    In Utah, it is legal to fire someone for being gay or transgender. The gay rights advocacy group Equality Utah has been trying to change state law for several years but has always been rebuffed by the Republican-controlled Legislature.

  132. And Utah’s governor had this to say today about rights for gay people.

    SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — Utah Gov. Gary Herbert told reporters Thursday in his most definitive comments yet on gay rights that he doesn’t believe sexual orientation should be a protected class in the way that race, gender and religion are.

  133. Is he CRAZY!!!!!

  134. Rick Ross is also a convicted felon.

    Public records reveal that Ross has been the subject of at least three arrests, including an attempted burglary, embezzlement of $100,000 worth of jewelry from a jewelry store, and kidnapping. Two of these arrests resulted in convictions

    He was also sued for kidnapping a Pentecostal kid and handcuffing him.

  135. I would take my chances following the work of Rick Ross over the works of 1. Warren Jeffs 2. Any Kingston 3. Any Allred or believing the words of one Utah AG named Mark Shurtleff.


    And just how are you doing Duane? Do you know if BillM has any connections with Rod Parker or Wally?

    Thanks for any info Duane

    Love Walton

  136. I don’t know Walton, don’t communicate with him other than what I occasionally post on his blog. The only people I’m in contact with are Deb, Celia, and Al Holm.

    About Bill’s reasons to do what he does.
    We all have our own reasons for either defending polygamists or attacking them.

  137. duane all rick ross does is print what is printed in newspapers around the country. He gives no opinions.

  138. Thanks for the reply Duane. I know BillM has his own pain. He just is going about “healing” in the wrong way. jmo

    One more question. Prior to Bruce Wisan doing the money trail do you think that many of the FLDS actually knew where their money was going?

    I know that many of the Churches I’ve attended they put their spending costs in a newsletter or flier.

    Thanks again

  139. April Day = Deb Lee and tell her we all said hello and hope she’s enjoying her lonely summer on Bill’s blog!

  140. Walton for BillM to display as much guilt, I ‘d agree it traces back to his youth, and I am just guessing, Catholic Eastern European/New York upbringing. I think by the time he was a teenager he was off-the-reservation and it led to his arrest, conviction and sentencing. He’s guilty all the way down to his toenails.

  141. BillM lived on the reservation?

  142. I think that was a metaphor, Walton.

  143. DD, maybe he just knows his constituency and is playing to them.

  144. Oh Im sure your right Betty

  145. If BillM lived on a reservation and he spoke as he does now. He wouldn’t have left the reservation. jmo

    I’m talking about the Bill Medvecky that runs the Free the FLDS children. The man who lives in Florida who posted the Judges home address.

    The one who Rod Parker calmly said that he runs his own site. The one who was arrested and jailed. The one who is semi retired from the media business. The one who is friends with Al Holm.

    The one who wants to help the FLDS but has a blog full of BS.

    That is the BillM I’m talking about.

    This guy:

    He couldn’t have lived on the reservation long if he did.

  146. If he lived on a reservation they would have chased his arse out and left him along side the road. just my thoughts

    If BillM would have lived on a reservation and paid attention he would know what life was about.

    Nah I am thinking we might be talking about two different people named Bill.

  147. Walton there are rez in NY State.

  148. I know one of those NY Indians who is also in the SCA. Quite a character.

  149. Retired Media Broadcasting my butt!!!

  150. Walton, ‘off-the-reservation’ was just a figure of speech.

  151. Walton, none of the FLDS rank and file have issues with the way the trust was ran. YFZ was appraised at a value far higher than the original purchase price which means the total value of all FLDS assets greatly increased as a result of their own sweat.
    They live communally and they can take what they need from the storehouses which they established to benefit all members of their faith, not a single complainent who alleged the FLDS leaders were fleecing their rank and file was a member, the whole thing is a sham to destroy them by economic means.

  152. Deputy, it isn’t “the Republican-controlled Legislature.” that has the issue with GLBT It’s the Mormon-controlled Legislature.

    Yes, they are one and the same, but I think it’s the “Mormon” part rather than the “Republican” part that holds back equal rights for gays and lesbians.

  153. caljlm- Sorry about the confusion. I’d never heard the term any other way than for one to leave an Indian Reservation. Guess I need to get out more.

    I don’t know what the SCA thing is either.

    “Off the Reservation”-

    I still stand by what I say though if BillM would have ever talked like he does on a reservation near here he would be shown the path to the highway.

  154. And I can’t believe Gary Herbert said that today. He has only been the governor for one week. Heaven help us!

  155. It’s OK Walton, it made for some entertaining reading.

  156. Duane I do believe that some of the tax-payers sweat helped with paying for the “trust”.

    And I am tired of sweating.

    Just how does one man provide for a family of 50 wives and 100 children?

    I don’t think the investigation was a sham. I think the sham was being played out by those in the FLDs. jmo

    Anonymous @7:10 – Entertainment Reading? I thought I was going to wear out google trying to find out if Medvecky was Native.

    Does anyone know the name of the guy that tried to break into the Ranch? He was a Native American from where?

  157. More Utah polygamy weirdness about Brian David Mitchell who kidnapped Elizabeth Smart and made her his child bride.

    Mitchell lawyers want witness list shortened

  158. Very interesting read:

  159. Lots of reservations in New York: this is Iroquois Confederacy territory.

    I have never succeeded in figuring out where Bill Medvecky was from or where he was sentenced, or what the details of his crime were, although I did ask around. He could have been from another part of New York and destroyed records at an office in the state capital.

    I’ve carried a grudge ever since he ‘outed’ Merrianne’s foster parents on his blog. I’m sure that if his parents are alive they are elderly and utterly innocent, but I would enjoy visiting them.* I think it would be bracing for him to get a phone call from his mother asking why her privacy had been violated.

    No reason to assume he was a Catholic abuse victim himself. He could be a simple, straightforward jerk.

    *Don’t panic, Duane. I like old people and I’d bring a coffeecake and listen respectfully.

  160. Why does the state want to discuss ‘The Book of the New Covenant,’ by Ervil Lebaron? Was he influential in Brian Mitchell’s thinking (if you can call it that)?

  161. “Walton, none of the FLDS rank and file have issues with the way the trust was ran.”

    As Cement so wisely pointed out, if they did have issues they wouldn’t be FLDS anymore, would they?

    “They live communally and they can take what they need from the storehouses which they established to benefit all members of their faith, not a single complainent who alleged the FLDS leaders were fleecing their rank and file was a member, the whole thing is a sham to destroy them by economic means.”

    The UEP is not a “storehouse” it is a trust. It has more beneficiaries than just the FLDS no matter what Pliggy tells you. The UEP predates the FLDS. You know that.

  162. Ervil wrote lots of pamphlets about Mormon polygamy. That was just about all Ervil did was proselytize and write religious pamphlets. Mitchell may have become a self-proclaimed pedophile prophet from reading some of Ervil’s writings.

  163. Maybe BillM claimed that he has a broadcasting background because he was associated these 2 companies in Miami, FLA –

  164. Greetings, are you familiar with Lee County? Seems BillM has some criminal records on file involving Lee County. I think they are inmate reports.

  165. There is also something about New York Prison Release Records.

  166. “I don’t know what the SCA thing is either.”

    The SCA is the Society for Creative Anachronism. They are a group of people (chapters all over the world) who dress up in medieval costumes, do reinactments, joust, have a king and queen and barons and stuff. My son, daughter in law and I are considering looking into it because it seems like a fun group. My daughter’s school best friend was very involved in it with her mother for years.

  167. The New York Prison Release Records mention 3rd degree Burglary being a charge.

    The County of Commitment was ALBANY

    DIN 81D0283
    There is a date of 11-5-1981 – I think this is the day he had his INITIAL RELEASE APPEARANCE before the Parole Board.

    There is also a 1st degree conviction for Tampering with Public Records.

    Then there is another 3rd degree Grand Larceny – not Auto charge.

  168. Greetings, for get that about Lee County, the prison time was spent in Albany County.

    The Lee County stuff was things like:


  169. Did that help answer some of your questions, Greetings?

  170. It is my understanding that he was sentenced in 1983 to up to 102 years in prison but was paroled in just 4 years.
    He was released on parole from the New York State Prison in Albany in 1985.
    He has also been referred to as “Southern White Trash”.

  171. I also heard he had a handy man business of sorts that never did much.

  172. OOPS, that sentencing date above should be 1981 instead of 83.

  173. Shoot, is there a Lee County in NY now?

  174. He has also been referred to as “Southern White Trash”.

    Anonymous said this on August 27, 2009 at 10:24 PM

    hmmm. I guess that is why he relocated from New York to Florida after being released from prison … so he would feel like he belongs.

    That comment is not being derogatory to Southerners or the state of Florida. It’s just more difficult to be Southern White Trash in New York than it is in Florida.

  175. Anon, in Florida we call them “crackers”, and “white trash” are not exclusive to the south, you will find them everywhere.

  176. Here’s another “God told me to rape little girls” case:
    Kidnapped California Girl Found 18 Years Later

    Published: August 28, 2009
    Filed at 6:13 a.m. ET

    SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) – A California girl who was kidnapped at the age of 11 in 1991 has been found alive, having spent 18 years living in sheds and tents behind the home of her accused abductor, a convicted rapist who fathered two children with her, police said on Thursday.

    Read the rest of the story till it gets to he was apprehended when passing out religious pamphlets at Berkeley:

    and that is why so many posters here say they don’t care about polygamy between adults but do care about religiously mandated polygamy and yes want to see it end..

  177. Greetings here is a little info on Ervil LeBarons book that he wrote while in Prison.

    I can’t copy and paste anything but here is the link:

    This was written by his son William H. LeBaron while he was in prison.

    Mitchell is a wing nut – noodle head- crackers or whatever a person wants to call it. He himself had a very strange upbringing. The kind that makes you drop your mouth to the floor. They say that prison doesn’t rehabilitate a person. Maybe it doesn’t. But it sure keeps the rest of the people safer when they are locked up. jmo

  178. Here is another story about a little boy named David Fink.

    Officials say the couple refuses to feed the child anything other than lettuce and watermelon, believing he is “a religious prophet.” Christopher Fink reportedly believes anything other than starchless fruit, vegetables and leafy greens could contaminate the child.

    David weighed only 16 pounds when he was taken from his parents and rushed to Primary Children’s Medical Center in Salt Lake City, officials said.

    During a supervised visit with the child last Saturday, Christopher Fink allegedly assaulted a hospital staff member, and the Finks fled with the youngster, officials said.

    This was in 2000. And there have been updates since then. Google Christopher Fink and check the history. The connections he has made in his travels mention some of the people we are talking about in the current stories.

    It is my opinion that Utah should have their own “tent-city”. jmo

  179. He has also been referred to as “Southern White Trash”.

    Hey, I resemble that remark. I love to visit my cousins – when they’re not in prison.

  180. He has also been referred to as “Southern White Trash”.

    Then again, maybe I got lucky since I’m only 1/2 “Southern White Trash.”

  181. Yeah, I’m half Southern White Trash myself. If anyone from Western Louisiana can be considered white.

  182. I live in Utah and I attend court hearings a lot. I have been to hundreds of Protective Order hearings and many Temporary Restraining Order hearings – including Willie Jessop’s TRO hearing against Sam Brower.

    Trust me, the judges here demand evidence – and lots of it – to rule on the orders.

    If it isn’t iron clad etched in stone and slapping the judge in the face that there was abuse or potential future danger, then the person does not get the TRO or the PO. There has to be evidence (police report, victim testimony, etc.) or the judge doesn’t issue the order.
    Not really. Here let me show just one example.
    Abuse of Temporary Restraining Orders Endangers Real Victims
    December 29, 2005
    Wendy McElroy

    On Dec. 15, Santa Fe District Court Judge Daniel Sanchez signed a temporary restraining order against CBS late-night host David Letterman, requiring him to keep his distance from Colleen Nestler.

    According to Nestler, for more than 10 years Letterman has been sending coded messages over the airwaves that communicated his desire to marry her. (Nestler has also accused TV personalities Regis Philbin and Kelsey Grammer of communicating with her through televised code.) Letterman says he doesn’t know the woman.

    Nestler’s TRO may be ludicrous, but it highlights a no-nonsense debate on the possible misuse of restraining orders.

    …In Oregon, DivorceNet provides advice on TROs. As in most states, an applicant need only assert a “fear” of violence even if none has occurred. Some applications can be made by telephone….

  183. WeeWillie insisted during his failed TRO hearing that Sam Brower and a television news crew had entered upon his land and filmed a later televised report. Sam Brower and the the news crew members all stated that the filming had occurred by the side of the road on the embankment. Sam Brower said Willie R. Jessops filing was just a reprisal/pay-back for work Sam had done exposing the FLDS Church. Sam Brower and the news crew were exonerated when the judge dismissed the order for a lack of proof.

    Seems the system worked as it was designed to do, save the temporary restraint is granted on faith that there is veracity of truth in that a real threat exists.

  184. Betty, I love red beans with rice. 80)

  185. Ali-oop, stupidhead, whatever, Sante Fe is not in Utah, so using a case there as an example of anything to do with TRO’s and PO’s involving FLDS members is just another one of your STUPID

  186. Red herrings, and troll behavior

  187. ROFL LadieSadie!!!

  188. Ali-oop, stupidhead, whatever, Sante Fe is not in Utah,
    Ta hell? Thanks for the name calling but my veracity was questioned when I mentioned the ease of getting Temporary Restraining orders. Even you all admit that Willie Jessop was granted his Temporary Restraining order. When you stoop to name calling you lost the argument.

  189. Ali-oop, reading problems again? wee willie FAILED

  190. It’s really hard to get a TRO in Virginia, Alin. That is a state by state thing. That was Lady Sadie’s point, from what I read.

  191. Just recently a girl was rescued from a religious fanatic who took her at age 11 to be his sex slave.

    (ala Brian Mitchell -Liz Smart)

    He has has a crazy religious blog – and here are some of the comments from the public about him..

  192. Ali: What the heck does a TRO involving David Letterman (presumably NY or CT) and TROs in OR have to do with Willie’s failed attempt to get a TRO against Sam Brower in UT. We all DON’T admit that Willie got a TRO. HE DID NOT GET IT!
    Stay up or get off the bus.

  193. ale wife –

    Letterman mistakenly got some family violence protective order issued against him by some wacky woman in Albuquerque, NM who claimed that Letterman was invading her brain or something like that.

    It shows the problem with “family violence protective orders.” On one hand it seems like what’s the harm in granting one since you’re only telling someone to not do what they shouldn’t be doing in the first place. However, they’re also used in divorce to gain strategic advantage by one side over the other.

    My solution (which has yet to be adopted anywhere) is to grant them against BOTH parties. My experience has been that in some cases there is a victim and a victimizer. However, often there is a lot of mutual violence and the line between victim and victimizer is not very clear.

  194. Hey, while we are talking about people with voices in their head, here is another religious blog – by the guy who kidnapped that 11 year old girl in CA.

    The comments on the threads are pretty pointed as to what the general public thinks of this kind of thing. On the first thread a “tommy” supports the nut and gets flamed for it over 6 pages of posts.


  195. Got to share that on Brooke’s blog, the Pharisee went into an ALL CAPS teen age girl hissey fit at me and said that I hate sex and men and think men and their desires are FILTHY and DISGUSTING.

    I would love to take one of his posts and annotate every phrase and nuance which showed some of the most hateful sexism I’ve seen in a long time. But it’s probably better for us all if I just go out and do some weeding until the rain starts.

    And Lone Rider told ChloeMitchell that if she did not WANT to have sex with a man who had multiple sex partners that she was probably a man hating lesbian!

    So it has been quite a day so far for misogynistic nut bags.


    OMG – I knew it. IT’S TRUE….

  197. I prophesy there will be a run on tin foil …

  198. The origami tin foil hat lesson begins in 15 min. Come in and take seat.

  199. By the way,, Bruce from Montana talks about what a great guy Dee Jessop is,, and what do you know… He has been charged with repeated acts of harrassment in Arizona…..

    Case Number: J-0803-CR-20080143
    Title: ST OF AZ VS JESSOP DEE YEATES Category: Criminal
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 12/17/2008
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date:

    DEE YEATES JESSOP DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 7/27/1966
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  200. Ron in Houston: Thanks for the clarification on Letterman. It was NM that issued it, not CT or NY. Since this is a state law thing, I assume different states would have differing degrees of what evidence is required for the issuing of a TRO.

  201. Ron LOL

    Did you read that guys whacked stuff!??

    I thought I was on Hughs site for a bit, but then I read further, this guy has documentation!!

  202. Is that the same Dee Jessop? The one who slaughters animals in front of school children?

  203. From the site of Phillip Garrido, child molester and kidnapper – come – religious freak.



    These areas are off limits and a danger to anyone believing they can experience this type of freedom. It belongs to God for the direct application of His Word.




    Scary stuff out there. Gives Hugh’s site more meaning, or less?


  205. Just how does one man provide for a family of 50 wives and 100 children?

    Walton, how many polygamist households consist of 50 wives and 100 children?

  206. duane

    One polygamist with 50 wives and 100 children is too many. But that was just a thumbnail.

    Warren for instance has over 75 prison widows. I dont know how many children call him “Father” but there is an entire generation of kids out there who will collect news clippings on daddy.

  207. I’ve read, more than once, of FLDS families so large and fathers so absent, that they never really knew the names of their own children. You know your family is too big when you can’t remember [or bother to learn] their names.
    On top of that…just seeing pictures of some of these different families,a lot of the kids allll look alike. But, I guess when the gene pool is so shallow, you start getting ‘repeats’ in these mixed families.

  208. Duane, Sadly I think more than we know. Here is just one:

    According to court testimony, Mattingly Foster is one of 14 women with whom Kingston has more than 110 children. Kingston spent 28 weeks in jail in 1999 after pleading no contest to felony child abuse for belt-whipping a daughter by one of those other women.

    Someone mentioned Warren.

  209. Anonymous, there is no Lee County in New York.

    I know his arrest and imprisonment was in Albany, but that doesn’t mean he’s from there—it’s the state capital, where the records he destroyed would have been located.

    Knowing where he was busted on an open container charge would be handy.

  210. I’m thinking it’s time for another chorus of “those poor sex offenders shouldn’t be saddled with the label for life,” from Duane.

    The media is now reporting that police are searching Phillip Garrido’s house for evidence linking him to a series of early ‘90s slayings.

  211. Watching an episode of Criminal Minds and a guy is duct taping aluminum foil to his windows. Couldn’t help getting tickled, given our earlier conversation.

  212. For years we had a lady call late at night [when I worked nights for a local PD] to chat about little space aliens. She once told us, in all sincerity, to buy stock in Alcoa Aluminum because she had a large house, with lots of windows and triple layers of the stuff on every window. I sorta miss her! Nutty as a fruitcake, but sweet.

  213. Well, the problem with sex offender registration is that we’re registering the wrong ones. We need to focus on true pedophiles and stop registering 19 year old kids that have sex with their 16 year old girlfriend.

  214. Greets

    “political diatribes from the pulpit”

    The power went to this guys head too he just used it a different way.

    That would be my last Sunday there!

    If a person wanted to bash * they need only log on to

  215. BTW that site is a rabidly liberal site and over the years I have read it just for the shock factor.

    Y’know, social train wreck….

    Lots of people with angst.

  216. Sometimes I think I should retire the tin-foil hat. I adopted it for all the people who kept saying it was a governmental conspiracy to frame the dear sweet FLDS.

    It’s funny – what with Ted Kennedy dying we were talking about JFK in Dallas. I do believe there must be more to that story than Oswald.

    Eh, maybe we’re just hard wired to get fascinated by conspiracies.

  217. Ron

    With the “Stranger than Fiction” events that surround us, its easy to embrace the desire to expose motives.

    What motive does the State of Utah have to enable the local Polygamists?

    Many people have pretty much made their mind up the LDS church doesnt want to prosecute their theologic cousins any more than we would want to prosecute our children for not doing chores.

    At least thats the conspiracy I buy into.

    May my tin foil hat be sporty!

    (at least I have a quote from Mike Leavitt, past Utah Governor with polygamist ancestors, backing me up)

  218. Well Stamp Alcoa is trading at $12.5, maybe it’s time to buy.

  219. Hmmm maybe sooo..

    Say, what is your consipiracy theory on why they let Phillip Garrido go after 11 years, when he was serving a life sentence for rape and 50 years for kidnapping?

    And three short years later he kidnaps an 11 year old girl from the same neighborhood?

    The justice system like having perps to play cat and mouse with?


  220. “Say, what is your consipiracy theory on why they let Phillip Garrido go after 11 years, when he was serving a life sentence for rape and 50 years for kidnapping?”

    The prisons were getting full, he behaved well and our society doesn’t really care about violence against women and children; they just give it lip service.

  221. Well, the problem with sex offender registration is that we’re registering the wrong ones. We need to focus on true pedophiles and stop registering 19 year old kids that have sex with their 16 year old girlfriend.
    Ron in Houston said this on August 29, 2009 at 6:50 AM (edit)

    No kidding

  222. I would ditto that too! But in this case I am amazed at how he slipped through the cracks.

    You would think when there is another abduction in a city you would investigate past abducters who offended in that same area.

    But who am I to tell the cops what to do?

    Oh yeah, the cops were told what was going on in Phillip’s back yard 3 years ago.

    When the cop showed up Phillip said

    “Go away, nothing to see here” and the cop said “OK”.


    This just reminds me so much of how the FLDS and other plygs always snooker cops.

    When you step back and see the ongoing crime of raising children with a lame home school edjumacation and teach them they will be sexed up with gramps upon menses, and that this is going on and on and on under the nose of LEA, its just unfreaking believable!

    Pisses me off! But you knew that!

  223. Stamp, You are so right. It’s amazing how he slipped through, but it happens all the time. The wife is just as guilty and sick as he is. Very similar to the FLDS.

  224. Hi Rozita!

    Yes indeed! It is soo similar, its ominous! Hopefully this case (good timing BTW) will help the uproar over child abuse.

    THis is NOT a good thing for Warren and the Dirty Dozen!

  225. Oh yeah, the cops were told what was going on in Phillip’s back yard 3 years ago.

    Hindsight is 20/20. Yes it would have been great if the cop had investigated but apparently the reports of the kids did not indicate they were under any duress. However, gven this guys record, they should have been more suspicious. I predict over the next several months, police agencies across the country will be getting a slew of reports of kids “living outside” leading to raids only to discover kids having backyard campouts.

    When you step back and see the ongoing crime of raising children with a lame home school edjumacation and teach them they will be sexed up with gramps upon menses

    Home schooling is legal, in spite of all the hoopla over underage marriags and even the infamous WJ tweener pics, Most FLDS marriage participants were of age. Of the few thet weren’t, most of those would have been legal if they obtained a license or if they didn’t involve polygamy. There is nothing in Mormon canon, fundy or otherwise, that designates age of consent to be menses.

    Marriage licences originated after the Civil War in order to prevent blacks and whites from marrying each other. Interesting that the whole concept of state licensed marriage is rooted in bigotry.

    GFNY, the Paul Kingston case is old news and yes he is guilty. Mormon fundies have their good and bad eggs like everyone else.
    My take on sex offender registries is identical to Ron’s.
    In some areas, public urination and visiting a prostitute will get you tagged as an RSO…that is ridiculous and renders the registry useless.

  226. Agreed, Ron. Although that’s a state by state issue. I would like to see a national standard so that there is consistency as well. Hopefully consistant AND fair and reasonable.

  227. I hope it will help also. Society needs to open their eyes to what’s going on in the United States. My hats off to the neighbors who called in 2006, but if more neighbors had called she would have been saved sooner. Numbers speak volume you have to be persistent if you think abuse is going on in your neighborhood regardless who your neighbor is. Many FLDS women have left and spoken out and I hope they continue to speak out and be BRAVE to come forward when the time comes for the Perps to face the music in court.

    I posted a blog about Jaycee and FLDS yesterday check it out”

  228. “Marriage licences originated after the Civil War in order to prevent blacks and whites from marrying each other. Interesting that the whole concept of state licensed marriage is rooted in bigotry.”

    Marriage licenses predate the USA on this continent and go back to colonial days. One of the main ways of following geneology is to go to the county record and research marriage licenses. There have been marriage licenses in the state of Virginia from the time that there was a colonial government on to the present time.

    This is a common technique of yours. Make a bizarre statement, attribute it to your enemies and then argue against it. It’s a straw man.

    “Mormon fundies have their good and bad eggs like everyone else.”

    Oh, yeah? How many eggs do you have in your community who think that God told them to make babies with their own daughters because their seed is superior? Perfectly normal, no problem here.

  229. Some people get convicted of public urination when they are actually exposing themselves. If someone has repeat convictions for public urination and they DON’T live in a card board box, I’d be very, very suspicious that what we have here is a repeat sex offender.

  230. Or a regular Mardi Gras attendee, one or the other. LOL.

    I testified in court against a man who was a repeat exhibitionist – his gig was doing public craft activities for children and he wore a kilt. Regimental. And he had mirrors on the ground in his display. But he claimed that only he really understood and cared about children and that going regimental was historically accurate. I hope to God he’s on a repeat sex offender list somewhere.

  231. “Oh yeah, the cops were told what was going on in Phillip’s back yard 3 years ago.”
    Duane, The cops were told more than a decade ago about what was going on in the FLDS community backyard. What changed?

  232. “Marriage licences originated after the Civil War in order to prevent blacks and whites from marrying each other. Interesting that the whole concept of state licensed marriage is rooted in bigotry.”
    Duane, Blacks were not allowed to marry blacks and your point?

  233. What changed?

    The victim spoke out.

    But when FLDS victims do that, they are ‘lying apostates’, trying to make money on a book deal, lying adulteress, hypnotized by Dan Fischer’s psychologist…..

  234. From a Texas County Office about assistance with geneology research:
    Marriage licenses from 1837 to present, and Military discharges from 1919 to present are among the records available in this office.

    Clue fairy. 1837 was before Texas was a State, let alone before the Civil War.

  235. duane

    Marriage licenses go back much farther than that. Though some states may have played with reasons in the past, race isnt the reason licenses were invented as you imply errrr lie.

    Sorry! Marriage licenses predate this country.

  236. Exactly, the victim spoke out! We need to keep encouraging these woman and girls that it’s ok to talk and come forward there is help and support. We can’t force them it has to be their choice and I remain hopeful that this will continue to occur!

  237. That is my hope, also, Rozita.

  238. Stamp, I hope it will help also. Society needs to open their eyes to what’s going on in the United States. My hats off to the neighbors who called in 2006, but if more neighbors had called she would have been saved sooner. Numbers speak volume you have to be persistent if you think abuse is going on in your neighborhood regardless who your neighbor is. Many FLDS women have left and spoken out and I hope they continue to speak out and be BRAVE to come forward when the time comes for the Perps to face the music in court.

    I posted a blog about Jaycee and FLDS yesterday check it out:

  239. I hope it will help also. Society needs to open their eyes to what’s going on in the United States. My hats off to the neighbors who called in 2006, but if more neighbors had called she would have been saved sooner. Numbers speak volume you have to be persistent if you think abuse is going on in your neighborhood regardless who your neighbor is. Many FLDS women have left and spoken out and I hope they continue to speak out and be BRAVE to come forward when the time comes for the Perps to face the music in court.

  240. Yes, marriage licenses in one form or another have been around since the middle ages or so. But in the early part our history they weren’t a requirement for the most part. Private ceremonies and public cohabitation was good enough for legal purposes. They became a strict requirement and really got going after the civil war when southern states passed miscegenation laws.

    Let me put it this way: In 1840 if you asked a frontier couple for their marriage license, they would most likely say “huh?”, “what is that?”.
    Nowadays we take for granted that in order to get married we must go to the courthouse and get a license.

    Also, I think Utah instituted marriage licensing mainly to enforce the polygamy ban.
    So yes, technically I was wrong…sorry!

    I’m familiar with the alleged Kingston “pure seed” theory, sounds pretty gross but that doesn’t mean all or even most Davis Coop’ers are incestious. At any rate, that is still does not come close to justifying rounding up all the davis coop’ers and throwing them in jail for incest.

    Betty, the Kingston victim spoke out right after the alleged crime occurred, i believe she made a call from a gas station and the marks were still fresh.
    She didn’t leave the sect, then after a few years decide to write a book alleging all sorts of horrendous atrocities that either supposedly occurred many years prior, or they were memories “recovered” during “therapy”. Big Difference!

  241. duane, I proved you wrong and you just spin more BS, based on absolutely nothing but your own view of reality. Remember, you are the one who thinks Appalachia is full of inbred people living in desperate poverty and I am the person who lives a few hours away from Appalachia. So I know that you just make stuff up based on movies, fanatical websites and off hand comments from Pliggy. The fact that you, Julie Worth and Alinusara have a tendency to make the seme comments at the same time on different websites tells me that either you have a lot of sock puppets, you all talk to each other, or someone from the FLDS issuing you a play book.

    Go back into your troll cave. I’m going back out into the garden.

  242. ” in spite of all the hoopla over underage marriags and even the infamous WJ tweener pics, Most FLDS marriage participants were of age”

    Sorry, Duane, but I can’t accept the word of a proven liar such as yourself on such an issue. If it is true then the FLDS should have no problem with turning over their bishops records to prove that. It’s not going to happen, though, because they knew they were breaking the law the entire time. I’d say the ratio of sex offenders in the male population of the FLDS is FAR higher than that of the general, evil, wicked, gentile public.

  243. Duane,
    The Kingston girl ran away and NEVER went back to the cult. Her father forced her to marry her uncle. When she later rebelled her father beat the hell out of her. She ran away and called LE from a pay phone. She NEVER wrote a book either.

    So, you had 2 truths in your made up version of things – she had fresh bruises and she called the police from a pay phoned.

    The rest is just made up BS by you.

  244. BTW, I am a different Anonymous than the 1:07 PM one. There are numerous anonymous posters here.

  245. The 1:07 PM Anon was me from a different computer.

  246. anon 2:06, you misunderstood me, My point was that the Kingston girl called police shortly after incident occured AS OPPOSED to leaving the group, then years later write a book and make allegations of criminal acts that purportedly occurred years prior to when they were reported, prime example being Carolyn Jessop.


    They must be lying. I bet they’ll try to arrange for atrocities so they can make more money off of a movie. How COULD they?

  248. “Let me put it this way: In 1840 if you asked a frontier couple for their marriage license, they would most likely say “huh?”, “what is that?”.”


    Oh right, some mythical 1840s Frontier Couple, which is based on your paltry grasp of history, is surely what we should all aspire to.

    You know, duaney, I think the only thing we’ll ever agree on is the title of BillM’s site: Free the FLDS Children. Those poor kids need to be freed as soon as possible from their abusive, criminal parents.

  249. duane wrote “I’m familiar with the alleged Kingston “pure seed” theory, sounds pretty gross but that doesn’t mean all or even most Davis Coop’ers are incestious. At any rate, that is still does not come close to justifying rounding up all the davis coop’ers and throwing them in jail for incest.”

    OK, we have here again the technique of making up a bizarre statement (rounding up the whole community and putting them in jail for incest) and then arguing against it. More BS.

  250. Yeah, I was wondering where that one came from too, Betty.

    But the trolls don’t actually want to discuss matters logically — there IS no logic that can mean it is okay to ignore the plight of so many women and children. Duane just doesn’t want anyone in the government to be able to put limits on the atrocities parents can commit against their children. After all, someone, somewhere, is doing worse.

  251. The trolls just don’t want any interference with their program of “biological evangelization” for their cult.

  252. Betty Wrote: “OK, we have here again the technique of making up a bizarre statement (rounding up the whole community and putting them in jail for incest) and then arguing against it. More BS.”

    duane deci tries this same tiresome stunt over and over again. Wish some one would teach that old hound dog duane a new trick. However, they say you can’t teach an old, set in his ways, dog a new trick.

  253. anon 2:06, you misunderstood me, My point was that the Kingston girl called police shortly after incident occured AS OPPOSED to leaving the group, then years later write a book and make allegations of criminal acts that purportedly occurred years prior to when they were reported, prime example being Carolyn Jessop.

    duane said this on August 29, 2009 at 3:26 PM

    OK Duane, I now understand what you meant to say. Thanks for the clarification because the way I read what you had written did not mean the same to me as what you meant to say.

    However, Carolyn Jessop did NOT wait years to speak with police or other law enforcement about the crimes within the FLDS and the abuses she and her children suffered.

    Within a very short time of Carolyn’s escape she spoke with the Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff and others in his office. She told them about the crimes and abuses THEN, early on in her freedom. The Utah AG’s office was horrified to learn how badly some members of the group were being treated and some of the shenanigans they were pulling! Remember, Carolyn was married to a very powerful man in the FLDS and she knew stuff.

    Mark Shurtleff then hired a LE officer named Ron Barton to start investigating the FLDS. Ron was referred to as the “Polygamy Czar”.

    So maybe they asked Carolyn not to go public telling about the crimes being committed and the abuses she and her children endured and blow their investigation just as it was getting started.

    In Carolyn’s situation, she waited to publicaly tell the world about her life in the FLDS. Maybe she needed a little time to digest all of the horror of the situation. Or maybe she feared for her and her children’s safety so much that she waited to write her memoir until Warren Jeffs was locked up in jail.

    Or maybe both.

    Either way, that doesn’t mean that what she wrote is not true.

    Others who have written books about their awful lives living in Mormon polygamy have waited DECADES to put their lives down in a memoir. Susan Ray Schmidt, Irene Spencer, Kaziah Mae Hancock, and Dorothy Allred Sollamon (sp?) come to mind.

    Just because these women waited decades to write an autobiography doesn’t mean that what they wrote wasn’t true.

    I would bet that the awful memories these women have about what they lived through are so embedded in their brains that they could write their life story when they’re old and on their death beds. And waiting that long to do it STILL wouldn’t mean that what they wrote wasn’t true.

    Why should time matter? Why do you even mention it?

  254. “I hope it will help also. Society needs to open their eyes to what’s going on in the United States. My hats off to the neighbors who called in 2006, but if more neighbors had called she would have been saved sooner. Numbers speak volume you have to be persistent if you think abuse is going on in your neighborhood regardless who your neighbor is. Many FLDS women have left and spoken out and I hope they continue to speak out and be BRAVE to come forward when the time comes for the Perps to face the music in court.”


    Have you ever been married or have raised children? If not, then shut the hell up. If you are the Rozita that made the calls that got the ranch raided, I hope you recieve the justice you deserve for that one day.

  255. Time doesn’t matter, that’s the whole point. When Elizabeth Smart was found, it’s been a couple of years since she has come forward and talked about what happened to her, and she still hasn’t given complete details. And it may take several years for her to be willing to come forward.
    She has started a foundation, and may eventually write about what happened to her. Women in a situation of abuse, many many times, do what is necessary just to survive, till they can see or find a way out without being killed.
    Duane is an ignoramous, who doesn’t know what it’s like for a woman or child to be abused, therefore it becomes easy for his to justify or make excuses for why abuses happen.

  256. It;s very degrading to admit you have been abused and the person abused feels in some way it was their fault, regardless what age it happened. Because the abuser, makes sure to reinforce it’s the abused fault they are getting beaten, or sexually abused, because the abuser comes from a place of power of the one the being abused.
    It’s a very well known fact for young children who are sexually abused to in their mind disappear while the abuse is taking place,if they didn’t they could not survive. My friend, said when her father sexually abused her from age 4, that he instilled fear from telling anyone, therefore she realized at an age that young, she could not escape physically, so she did so mentally. She would just disappear into a dream like state, and pretene she was somewhere else, till he finished… She told me of many pretend friends who would talk to her during those times. One in particular , promised her someday, she would be the one to tell what her father did. It became a way of protecting her inner self.
    Please don’t take abuse whether it is a child or adult with a grain of salt. It’s very real, it leaves scars for a lifetime. The wounds may heal, but the scars are always a reminder of what they have struggled through just to stay alive.

  257. My heart bleeds for the women of Flds, AUB, LeBaron or any other polygamist group where the insulation from outsiders is prohibited, it breeds abuse. It grows self loathing, and non-individuality. It keeps freedom of self and thought from maturing into one’s own choices. It becomes a Group think, not an individual thought.
    It breeds power by force, or humiliation of those weaker than others. IF it was a healthy way to live, those who left, or who were made to leave, would be able to think for themselves, go immediately and lead a productive life. But in communal living, that’s not what happens. Those who leave or are forced out, have horrific struggles. Freedom becomes liquor, or drugs, or worse, they end up in jail for the very thing they left, abuse.

  258. anon said this on August 29, 2009 at 8:53 PM

    You have NO right to tell Rozita to shut up! She has not been convicted of anything.
    You don’t like that people have freedom to speak here, then I suggest you MOVE ON!!

  259. Anon,

    Do I sense a little anger. Where do you live? How many children do you have? If you are one of the Pedophiles who will be going to trial because of your behavior on the ranch. I hope you receive the justice you deserve. That’s right woman say “Shut the hell up” so you must be one of the mothers who gave permission to have your daughter raped. The guilt must be eating away at you!!!!

  260. Well said, Deputy, on all of the above.

  261. Kudos to DeputyDog for saying what needs to be said, and saying it well. It’s too bad there are posters like duane and alinusara who are incapable of seeing it for what it is: and inherently abusive society.

  262. Not angry, just irritated at the hypocrisy, ignorance, and just plan stupid thinking that comes from some.

  263. anon, whether you agree or not, 1 in 4 females will be abused, or raped every 15 minutes in the United States. Out of those 1 in 4 , maybe 1 will report it to authorities. Abuse is a degrading, horryifying experience, which leave the female, whether adult or child not wanting to be embarassed, humiliated, or degraded any further by the legal system.
    The 1 that may report it, has to go through an exam, talk with officers in detail , graphic detail as to what happened, and then get up in court and go through the abuse or rape all over again to a court room filled with strangers.
    Do you have any idea how much strength it takes for a child, or woman to be able to do that??
    Now you add an insular group to that equation, where the woman or child is threatened if they tell, that either their salvation will be taken away, they will be banned from the insular group they have grown up in, or threatened physical harm if they testify against one of leadership in the group.

  264. Rozita is welcome to post here as is everyone else. Posters, especially anons, have no authority to tell other posters to shut up or leave. Comments like that will be deleted in the future and IP’s banned.

  265. FLDS Texas:

    Thank you for supporting Rozita and all other posters here who follow the rules. I fail to see how having been married and raised children would be a requirement for posting here. Since much of this site deals with legal documents, researching, etc; shopuld anyone without a college degree be banned from posting?
    how about banning anyone without a JD other graduate degree?
    That would be as ridiculous as a requirement of parenthood.

  266. A person doesn’t need a degree in anything to understand the need to stop the Abuses. A little common sense and some compassion would be nice.

    A person doesn’t need a high school diploma to know right from wrong. Many people pushed the issue aside, swept it under a rug or just plain closed the door. And those were the ones with the degree. How sad is that?

    As you know many of those in the stories have been asking for help for years. Their voices went unheard.

    For those that have written books, told their stories many like myself have stopped and listened. Their stories need to be told no matter how it is done. By phone, by letter, by book or by message board.

    Here is something to talk about.

    There are a couple of videos on here that describe what it is like to live in the Polygamous Community in Canada.

    More from the kids:

    To the best of my knowledge none of these kids have written a book.

  267. Geee….Anon all the talk by Warrenites and proFLDSers and you would freely silence another for merely stating their view or opinion. I just love to see those that scream Persecution and so readily apply denying someone elses rights. Hypocrite!

    Rozita share your opinion and speak your mind, I am all ears. 80)

  268. Can we check the ip logs and see if anon @ 8:53 is Duane? He’s probably wised up from the last time he was busted, but something tells me they could be one in the same.

    Even if it’s not Duane – I’ll bet it’s somebody’s sock puppet.

  269. Given the convictions of the “Dirty Dozen” what comes next? Does the Yearning for Zion Ranch go back to child labor law violations, Lost Boy practices, continued support for Warren S. Jeffs, enshrining the convicted “Dirty Dozen” as heroes or continue marrying Child Brides?

    Yes, Anon I see why you would love to shut-up your opposition because the Truth is getting out about the defiant Theocracy and True Believers of the Fundamentalist LDS Church and that is a very good thing. Freedom of speech is a very protected right of all Americans and not the elect few.

  270. Given the convictions of the “Dirty Dozen” what comes next? Does the Yearning for Zion Ranch go back to child labor law violations, Lost Boy practices, continued support for Warren S. Jeffs, enshrining the convicted “Dirty Dozen” as heroes or continue marrying Child Brides?

    Well, that’s really the question. Even Texas seems to be cherry picking its prosecutions and just going after the worst cases.

    It seems to be that since the criminal behavior is spread far and wide with crimes in different jurisdictions as well as federal crimes, there will need to be some sort of inter-agency task force to deal with the issue.

  271. What ever happened to Hellohellogoodbye’s visit to Washington DC, if you don’t mind sharing, Hello? Would all of us writing to our legistlators or even to President Obama do anything? Perhaps even get other people to write? I know I’m frustrated that nothing seems to be happening on a federal level and I am deeply disturbed that it has been rumored that the federal investigation was shut down. This kind of religious anarchy really DOES need to be nipped in the bud.

  272. I posted as “anonymous” once — but it was an accident. 😉

    Actually, I posted as Rianya a few times too before I figured out how to work the accounts here. I confess. 😆

  273. Well Rebeckah, that sort of stuff does happen, but it’s pretty clear that the pro-FLDS have adopted sock puppetry. I’m still highly disappointed in Duane not just for using sock puppetry but for the context in which he did it.

  274. Well we will have to let Duane off the hook for the August 29, 2009 at 8:53 PM anon post, but yes Ron it was sock puppetry at work. That comment was from an occasional poster that usually goes by WC.

  275. Ron, just for you:

    A study on the effectiveness of tinfoil hats. 😉

    Oh, and I agree totally about the sockpuppetry. I don’t know if it’s true or not, but it certainly seems to be a popular FLDS supporter type trick. Does the other side seem to use it too? I haven’t noticed if they do.

  276. Walton, thanks for those links. I’m watching the Bountiful video now. Important testimony from Jane Blackmore and Debbie Palmer. I really respect the women who have disregarded the consequences and spoken out against the cult’s abuses and criminal conduct.

  277. Walton, Great links thanks.

    Winston really flames Warren. And y’know what? If Winks had become prophet, they would probably be still sailing smooth right now. But Warren ruined it for everybody – including his own cell-bound self!

  278. Rebeckah

    They havent shown you the “TFH Turbo 3.1” yet?

    I mean what gets to the bottom of the truth faster than a Turbo tin foil hat?

  279. STamp, Winston isn’t any better than Warren, he just has a better personality and talks better, and more intelligent. Winston married underage girls himself.

  280. deputydog, technically the girls weren’t underage when he married them. They’d be underage now, from what I understand, but the law was different back then. Still, there’s no excuse for a grown man to marry a teenager.

  281. Jane Blackmore, the one who gave the deposition on documented on this site,, lost her daughter Susie to Ben Johnson of the South Dakota Compound. She tried in 2007 to see her daughter and her 3 grandchildren which she has never seen.
    She made it into the compound but was met by a group of men, who told her to leave, they were calling the sheriff,, no trespassing.
    She left heartbroken.

    Wendell Musser, who was chosen to take care of several of Warren’s wives while he was on the run, was only 19yrs old and had just gotten married to 18yr old Vivian Barlow. Their house was used as a house of hiding for several of Warren’s wives and children. Wendell made a mistake, because of all the turmoil, he drank and got a DUI,,, warren found out, and kicked HIM out took his wife and child. Remarried her to David Nielson.
    Wendell and Vivian had just had a new baby themselves when this all happened.
    Wendell was in LOVE with Vivian, and according to Wendell Vivian was in love with him. But when he was kicked out, Vivian didn’t follow her husband, but what the MAN who owned her told her to do,,, Warren Jeffs.
    Wendell was able to make arrangements ONCE to meet with and see his wife and child, but Vivian wouldn’t allow him to hold the baby. Would NOT look him in the eye when he told her, he loved her.
    Skip ahead to warren’s dictations, and you will see Where warren’s tells Merril Jessop to have Vivan divorce Wendell, and use her father’s address for all legal documents. If they were legally married and warren remarried Vivian before she got a divorce, then she committed Bigamy,,,,,
    Wendell filed suit in court for alienation of affection and parental rights to see his child… I haven’t been able to find the result of that issue,, but this is the Way this sicko prophet ran things.!!!!

  282. Okay, trolls, here is where you repeat your lie that women are free to leave with their children at any time.

  283. Then you have Wayne Fischer, who in January was driving a pickup with a camper shell on it through Colorado, and he lost control and the pickup overturned and hit a boulder. There were 3 adults and 6 children inside the cab, and 6 six children in the backend, NONE were wearing seat belts, and his daughter was killed, and two other children injured.
    In May he got probation.

  284. Wayne Fischer’s biggest concern the day he went to court? That a reporter was in the courtroom and he told the Judge his religion was already being persecuted.

  285. DD

    This stuff just makes you want to scream. I think all grandmothers /mothers should get legal visitation, and show up with LE to enforce it.

    I saw that video Walton posted with Winky, also had a clip about how Seth got pulled over, he couldnt drive because his male prostitute was *ahem* performing an act on him!

    Shurtleffs face was priceless!

  286. Andrea Johnson was almost five months pregnant when her kidneys stopped working properly, her blood pressure shot up and her 15-year-old body swelled like a blown-up surgical glove.

    Doctors performed an emergency Caesarean section that summer of 1992, and her little boy came into the world as light as a loaf of bread, just 1 pound 11 ounces.

    Andrea’s symptoms were familiar to her sister. Connie Rugg had developed the common condition known as pre-eclampsia, which is easily treatable with proper prenatal care. Another of Andrea’s sisters also contracted pre-eclampsia during pregnancy.

    The difference was Andrea died.

  287. A disabled 6-year-old boy who is being reared by members of the polygamous Kingston clan after his mother died following childbirth has not been registered for school.

    The family had until last Monday to enroll the boy or file for an exemption.”If they don’t get him registered or file a release request, I imagine the district is going to act,” Doug Bates, attorney for the Office of Education, said. “Permission for home school was never granted. They have been contacted by letter and phone. The district even asked to help in the home, and it was refused.”

    And further into the article: Today, the Kingston boy, who uses a wheelchair and who has cerebral palsy, is living with Jason Kingston, a state auditor, and his wife, Rosalind Kingston, according to school district records and a sworn deposition by Rosalind’s mother. Rosalind is also Jason Kingston’s niece.

  288. Walton, what are they pretending is any kind of excuse?

  289. Pre-eclampsia is a condition that can occur in any pregnancy but the risk is higher in girls 16 and under and women over 35. Yet another reason why menses should not equal “consent”.

  290. I don’t understand it either Walton, it’s as if life doesn’t matter to these people,if one dies, Oh Well!

  291. When the little boy was killed at YFZ ranch, the funeral home said when the family came to pick the boys body up, there were no tears, nothing!

  292. GrannyToad- Sometimes no excuse is needed. What is….is.

    deputydog- People need room to mourn. Some people aren’t allowed the room or time to mourn. If you remember Ruth in Banking on Heaven she hurts inside deeply. They hauled her off.

    Their tears may come while doing dishes, or they may come on a hot summer day while weeding a garden. Or maybe they push those feelings aside and that day they clean out a closet that never needed cleaning the tears may fall.

    Sometimes people are so busy working on the life hereafter that they are forgetting about the life here and now. jmo

  293. Or maybe they are forced to “keep sweet” and not have any emotions, being brainwashed into being a robot like the children of Jaycee.

  294. I truly believe that Stamp–hearing these stories of the 18 year old kidnapping case is very shocking–!!
    The system–as it is–failed Jaycee!! I”m sick about that–it should not have taken that long to find this young lady!!!

  295. “OK, we have here again the technique of making up a bizarre statement (rounding up the whole community and putting them in jail for incest”

    Betty, if everyone gathered here and on other polygamy blogs just to bad mouth fundie mormonism and polygamy, I and probably everyone else like Deb, 40, FA, etc wouldn’t be here.

    What is so nauseating is the child kidnappings of course, also the the open calls by so many to conduct mass arrests of suspected polygamists, take their children again, confiscation of their property and assets, boycotts and the like simply to cause them economic ruin and impoverishment. Then you cloak it with names like “rescue”, “freedom”, “liberation”, “deprogramming”,…

    When Hawkins, Travessor, Alamo, and Koresh were arrested or died, the issue was over. Their followers or former followers were not hounded, tracked, or otherwised discriminated against.

  296. duane,

    I tend to agree with you that there has been plenty of flaming against the FLDS in general, and LE in general, but also there is pointed discussion of cases of where and why there has been failures to protect the women and children by ALL entities, Parents, Prophets RJ, WJ, Governors ML, JH, Attorney Generals MS, County Sheriffs KS, you name it.

    A pitiful Shortfall, playing on the UT AG name.

    Garrido is a perfect example of what has been going on, he is but a microcosm of heinous acts, in juxtaposition of a society who performs similar acts on a grand scale over decades and generations.

    The “brainwashing” or “habituation” if you will, happens and many people seem to be both victim and perpetrator.

    Some here have even noted to me that Allan Steed is perhaps not all that guilty, as he was raised to beleive this is how you treat the woman given to you as your property, you must assert yourself, and all the males in his background encouraged and supported him in doing just that.

    See Warren’s conviction for the explanation on how that works.

    So many think he is not your scheming, kidnapping rapist such as Garrido is, and in fact, he certainly isnt. He raped ( as evidenced) but he was encouraged by his elders and his upbringing. Still, I think he needs to pay monetarily and perform jail time, but certainly not life or any sentence approaching what Warren or the older men face in their taking of such as the spoils of the flesh of much young children.

    The latter KNOW better and their crimes were more heinous. They likely will get serious time such as Warren is getting.

    The women? Most I see are as victims such as Jaycee, however there are some that take charge of doling out misery, and I feel they are on very thin ice with no real excuse. Yeah, the Barbara Jessops of the FLDS.


  297. duane, when Hawkins, Travessor, Alamo, Koresh and Jones were arrested or died, yes the issue was over BECAUSE their followers STOPPED following them realized the horrible abuse for what it was and the followers CHANGED, not society. When the FLDS leader warren jeffs was arrested and imprisoned, the follower still follow him and all the tenets of the religion that are illegal. When the followers of jeffs and the FLDS stop breaking the law then the problem will be solved.

  298. Amen to that Lady sadie. The continued prosecution of warren’s followers is based on the ACTIONS of those followers, not their religious believes. Of course olod deci cannot understand that since if does not fit his idealization of the flds. More of his fantasies, just like his fantasy about the peaceful flds in short creek. Yeah, right, the same ones who plowed an ex flds crop under, the same ones who destroyed hundreds of feet of fence and killed a valuable horse belonging to an ex flds man.

  299. I think old dog deci duane is just hurt that he was not nominated for the tin foil hat award on the TBM blog. LOL

  300. ale wife, duane didn’t get nominated because there is a big difference between tin-foil-hat thinking and just plain stupid.

  301. LadySadie: Maybe next time Blues can run a stupid commenter contest. I would surely nominate and vote for deci duane on that one.

  302. duane would have some serious competition with B*52 (the bomber) Ali, and Deb Lee.

  303. Thats the word. And with no Prophet to sprinkle holy water on it, it’ll just rot in the sun.

  304. I think Carolyn should have a long list of assets that Merril hid so they can go after him big time.

    TOO BAD if his assets got comingled with the FLDS then they can help pay too.

  305. Well we know Merril owned Red Hills Supply but sold it to Willie Jessop for 10bucks by doing a Quit Claim deed. Wonder how much profit Merril makes off that deal?

  306. Legal Enforcement = discrimination
    Prosecution = Persecution
    Rescue = Raid
    Indictment = Indiscretion
    Conviction = Cowardice

    I am looking forward to the “Dirty Dozen” trials and the confusion of terms to be remedied by a Judge and Jury.

  307. You said it in a nutshell caJIM. I certainly am not looking forward to all the conspiracy theories and accusations of bigotry/persecution once the proper trials start up.

    The part that bothers me the most is that the people involved seem to have no idea how incredibly dangerous this tinfoil hat thinking is.

    Yes, conspiracy theories can be comforting. If everything that goes wrong is the fault of a secret cabal, that relieves you of the tedious necessity of trying to understand how a complex world really works. And you can feel smug that you are smart enough to “see through” the official version of events.

    Lest we forget: Hitler read and believed The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a bogus account of a global Jewish conspiracy. So did the founders of Hamas.

  308. Poor Elissa.

  309. Why does hiimallen not have the guts to turn on comments?

    And how did you do a you-tube link without it deciding to show up here?

  310. I wonder if it is similar reasoning to this found on the FLDS truth website:

    “Knowing that the best education about a religion should come from within that religion instead of from those who have become disaffected from that religion, this site is maintained by members of the FLDS Church to help disabuse the public mind. We are dedicated to giving the truth about our beliefs.”

    As much as I often disagree with certain posters, they should be allowed to have their say. Comments like that show a fundamentally dishonest attitude.

  311. More flds victims.

    “Dutson, 21, entered a guilty plea Tuesday to murder, a first-degree felony, for the 2007 shooting death of Kara Hopkins, 15, at a party.
    Dutson, who has been in jail since his arrest when he was 18 years old, was described by his lawyer as one of the “Lost Boys” who grew up in the Fundamentalist LDS Church town of Colorado City, Ariz. Dutson left home at age 16, encountered a difficult life outside the FLDS world and ended up turning to alcohol and drugs, according to his attorney.”

  312. And yet another one.

    Parole Board considers fate of boy’s killer
    Crime » Alexander Bybee was 16 when he killed his 6-year-old cousin in 1996.

    By Stephen Hunt

    The Salt Lake Tribune
    Updated: 09/01/2009 06:14:26 PM MDT

    Draper » Alexander James Bybee was 16 years old in 1996 when he murdered a 6-year-old boy — his cousin by virtue of a polygamous relationship — and hid the body in a shallow grave in the southern Utah community of Big Water in Kane County.

  313. Wonderful kind gentlefolk

  314. Hey FLDS Texas – do you know if the jury for the Oct trial will come from Schliecher County? I just got a Tom Green County jury summons for Oct.

  315. Crazy Baptist nutters, lets round them up and take their children.

    “God’s Work? Baptist Minister Prays for Obama’s Death”

  316. Gee duane did that crazy baptist minister rape little girls? Did he tell his followers that “God” told him to give little girls to his most faithful followers to rape? Did that crazy baptist minister tell his followers to have their children arrange obama’s death? Hmmmm, what evidence of child abuse do you find from that link? The crazy baptist can pray for anything he wants, that is his religious right. As long as he doesn’t ACT on any ILLEGAL beliefs he is free to THINK or BELIEVE anything he wants. Guess what people are free to be as crazy as they want to be, as long as they do not COMMIT any ILLEGAL ACTS that is their right.

    Just as you are free to post as many “strawman” posts as you want to, but as soon as you step over the legal line then you are a criminal.

  317. In strawman duane’s honor guess it is time to drag out yet again:


    Here’s the list:
    1. But it’s legal in France at 13!
    2. How do you know they really had sex just because there’s a baby?
    3. DNA isn’t conclusive.
    4. But other people get teenagers pregnant and they don’t go to jail! It’s not fair!
    5. America’s high schools corrupt children and give them condoms!
    6. But they consented and so did their parents, so it can’t be wrong.
    7. They changed the law just to get them (even though the girl is 12 and would be jail bait regardless).
    8. Jurisdiction! Sure she’s got a baby, but you don’t know where it was actually conceived. Just because they got married and live together at the ranch doesn’t mean anything. They could have driven to Reno, had sex, and driven back. And that makes it moral and all as well as legal.
    9. It can’t be illegal cause Holy Father tells uncle warren what to say.
    10. The children are more likely to be assaulted by CPS than by their husbands!
    11. The Virgin Mary was only 13.
    12. It’s natural. Teenagers are better at childbirth than older women anyway.
    13. Our ancestors did it. Why, 150 years ago, this was normal.
    14. They have all those hormones stirring up in them and it’s better to get them married off early to an older man who can support them than to let them and their illegitimate kids live in poverty and shame.
    15. It’s Flora’s fault.
    16. It’s Carolyn’s fault.
    17. It’s Dan Fischer’s fault.
    18. It’s Flora’s and Carolyn’s fault!
    19. A grand jury can indict a ham sandwich!
    20. It’s genocide!
    21. And last but not least, it’s holy to us because it’s part of our religion.
    22. The CPS is in cahoots with the Southern Baptists!
    23. You’re all Nazis!
    24. First Amendment, Freedom of Religion, Press, Assembly!
    25. Fourth Amendment, Unreasonable Search and Seizure, Warrants!
    26. Fifth Amendment, Indictments, Due Process, Self-Incrimination!
    27. Sixth Amendment, Fair and Speedy Trial!
    28. Eighth Amendment, Excessive Bail!
    29. The Judge is in cahoots with CPS (She should be disbarred, run out of town on a rail, tarred and feathered, how dare she)
    30. The whole system is unfair because it is run by a bunch of lesbian menopausal hysterical women who can’t be fair to the FLDS.
    31. It’s all Malonis’ fault!
    32. We are unaware of any underage marriages here.

    33. Although spiritual marriages (may) occur, they are not necessarily consummated until the girls are of age.

    34. A girl’s greatest calling is to be a sister wife and Mother.

    35. Three raids on three polygamists groups in 6 months is a conspiracy to take down Mitt Romney.

    36. “I don’t understand why she was taken away from me.”

    37. Polygamy is needed because there are two percent more women than men, and without a husband, those women would live in poverty.

    38. Deer do it.
    39. Its all a plot because CPS needed blonde-haired, blue-eyed baby’s to sell.
    40. She could have gotten impregnated with a turkey baster.
    41. Warren can change DNA by reassigning families.
    42. Somewhere on the internet there is a list of statistics that have absolutely nothing to do with anything, so the FLDS should be able to rape little girls and everyone should just shut up about it.
    44. 30 years ago some baby died in Ireland so the FLDS should be able to rape little girls.

  318. Sadie you really don’t think that idjitchild duane has a clue about logical fallacies, do you?

  319. Whoops just looked it up those darn French changed the legal age of consent to 15. Those darn Frenchies they must have thought the FLDS would move there and just to persecute those holy FLDS people changed the age all of a sudden in…..1945!

  320. From LadySadie: 34. “A girl’s greatest calling is to be a sister wife and Mother.”

    I can’t pass this up….add–> and sometimes she is all of the above, depending on who she marries…. [Tacky, but I love a good giggle!!]

  321. Thanks Soozie, we are always willing to add to the list, next time I have to repost it it will read:

    34. A girl’s greatest calling is to be a sister wife and Mother (sometimes all of the above at the same time, depending on who she marries, grandfather, uncle, brother, [step]dad).

  322. “As much as I often disagree with certain posters, they should be allowed to have their say. Comments like that show a fundamentally dishonest attitude.”

    I don’t mind them having their say, it’s just that they tend to spout the exact same misinformation, deception, and fallacies over and over and over again. It gets mind numbingly boring after a while, even with all the caps Pharisee likes to throw in.

  323. Another arguments you forgot:

    “The entire world is out to destroy the FLDS. Guilt among the FLDS is on an individual basis.”

    Those that are XLFDS are … (fill in the blank). Then when rebutted, says “I didn’t say all were”

    No one that is FLDS is complaining (circular reference–What about Winston? He was as high up as you can get)

    Cement got out with his family intact, so anyone is free to leave with their family intact; . (I was lucky)

  324. Oops, I was logged on as cement.

  325. Thank you for reposting the list LadySadie. Maybe we should make a list of duane’s titles. I really like your title of strawman for him. It does get boring to see him do that same old thing all the time, however old dogs….

  326. I love the list!

    My Fave: Deer do it

  327. I have to give a big tip of my hat to LadySadie. That list is a classic. It’s deadly serious while being quite funny at the same time. It deserves to be repeated from time to time.

  328. 45.) I’ve been her step-father for eight years, she owes me.
    46.) I have married her two older sisters and given her nephew and nieces, it’s all in the family now.
    47.) It’s not my fault, her mother was reassigned to me then she began to ovulate.
    48.) She’s my 24th wife and I am 62 years old her wifely duties will be easier if compared to a mother wife.
    49.) This is Gentile persecution because monogamy leaves their gentlemen sex obsessed and jealous.
    50.) Her mother liked me so much as a reassigned husband, she insisted that I marry her daughter, I was just trying to be a good provider.

  329. “My Fave: Deer do it”

    Deer have homosexual behaviors too — does that mean the FLDS think homosexuality is okay? Have they informed their LDS brethren?

  330. OK cajIM, numbers 45 – 50 have been added and saved for the next time I feel the need to drag out the list. This list was compiled by many people and all deserve credit (hey you can even give credit to the ignoramus that originally made the post and used one as an excuse). I am just the “keeper of the documents” and had it handy to repost.

    All feel free to add suggestions, every couple months it seems to be necessary to re-post the list in light of the strawman posts thrown out by the FLDS defenders.

  331. 30 years ago some baby died in Ireland so the FLDS should be able to rape little girls.
    Did someone actually post something that irrelevant? That’s about like claiming rice prices in Japan as a defense for the FLDS.

  332. Yes cement that was posted on the SL Trib boards a few months ago as a reason that the FLDS should be left alone and allowed to practice their religion anyway they want to.

  333. LadySadie, did we get genocide on the list? As in, if you want to stop underage marriages in the FLDS, you’re committing genocide. (But not like the Holocaust, because that didn’t really happen.)

  334. So, this list isn’t an exaggeration then? Everything on that list is something someone has actually tried as a defense?!

  335. 51. “The dictations may not be correct. A girl’s diary I violated had her lying in it”

  336. Cement

    Going back and looking at the list, I’d say I recognize most of them as actual arguments folks have made from time to time.

  337. Yeah, me too. The arguments in favor of allowing FLDS type abuse to continue are many, varied, and most of them are amazingly stupid. I always wonder just why it’s okay to lie, cheat, steal, and break the law to follow religiously mandated polygyny (because of the First Amendment) but it isn’t okay for me to go steal girls from Short Creek because my religion claims I have to raise them to be lesbians. I mean, if it’s my First Amendment right to practice any tenet of my faith I feel important then by golly this persecution needs to stop!

  338. TexasConnie:

    It’s already there

    #20. It’s Genocide

  339. Ok, Cement #51 is added to the list, thanks

  340. Ah, I missed it! Thanks, LadySadie. Great list. The trolls could save a lot of time by just referring to a numbered excuse — think of how much typing they’d save! 🙂

  341. LOL

  342. “We have a photo of her and her husband smiling”

  343. Once when I was talking with an ex-FLDS man about fathers molesting their daughters, he actually said to me “Well everyone does it” as if that made it OK for him to do it, too.

    Honestly, he said that to me!

  344. It will certainly be quite a surprise when all these folks get to celestial heaven and find out MEN have to do their own laundry!! LOL

  345. 5:42, you reminded me of another one.

    “None of our members do that sort of stuff. When caught, they are expelled.”

  346. #55 I know I had more wives than this, but darn if I can remember all their names.. Maybe Willie wrote them down? LOL

  347. Y’all are cracking me up today. Did anybody else see the Secret Lives of Women episode last night that featured Carolyn Jessop? Airing again on Sept. 29 on —

  348. 5:42–Was this person so holy that he would freak out if a teenage boy had a swimsuit picture in his toolbox, yet he was doing that sort of stuff?

  349. TexasConnie, I dunno who you are, but I sure do like you.

  350. Me too 🙂

  351. I saw the show last year Texas Connie, on the WE channel,, it was pretty good, although kind of made cheesey.

  352. 12 Rules Of The Community Leading Con-Man

    By Peter Forde

    1. What you’ve got is mine, and what I’ve got is mine too. (This is forcedly rule one because the world expects to see this, and is why they stay away in droves).

    2. I own you too, and you don’t own yourself, since you have vowed yourself into being my obedient serf. I will hold you to this even after you leave.

    3. You’re required to be meek and obedient, never angry, and constantly asking my permission to exist.

    4. I can do anything I like, because I’m the leader- God’s gift to Mankind. Undemocratic, Unimpeachable. The Holy Spirit representative (circle whichever applies, but note that “God’s gift to mankind” is compulsory). For this heavy burden of leadership I, of course, have unlimited extra privileges and income.

    5. The community actually exists for these purposes: Give me power over you: Make me lots of money: Make me powerful in the world: Flatter my vanity: Flatter my vanity again: Exist from moment to moment simply to pump up my ego.

    6. One hint of criticism and you’re out, and note rule #1. Your spouse, children and friends. (Community con men try to make suppression of criticism rule one, and stress it hard).

    7. All critics of me are sinners and have gone the world’s way. (It?s a feature of all con men to preemptively accuse their marks of what they themselves are doing, as a way to confuse the opponent.)

    8. Members are to confess their life’s sins to me, preferably tape recorded, for use in shaming them into groveling subjection and for defamation and blackmail if they happen to leave and speak out.

    9. Members are required to be dependent to the point of inability to cope if they should leave. This especially applies to children of members.

    10. Priority of loyalties are: A) to me; B) to God, meaning me again since I am his representative C) to the community, meaning me again since the community exists to serve me D) to spouse and children but they are required to hate their relatives and spouses and to have a relationship with me before them.

    11. Its fine to tell lies about who we are and what we actually represent. I wax lyrical about piety and morals since I don’t have to actually practice what I preach – those rules are for YOU!

    12. People who annihilate my enemies without blame falling on me are liable to get promoted and to share somewhat in my power, always of course being mindful of who is boss.

    Thus are the commands of Jesus carried out, and the Kingdom of Heaven promoted.

    Found this gem….

  353. TexasRattle and FLDS Texas – why, thank you. My real name is Connie and I live in Austin. I’m a writer and online media/marketing consultant. This is the project that has me hanging out in this neck of the cyberwoods:

  354. Susie, was that written before anyone knew anything about Warren Jeffs?

  355. If so, some people can prophesy better than Warren ever could.

  356. Connie good luck on your book. May your pencils always be sharp.

    There are many of us out here that still enjoy a good book.

  357. Thanks, Walton. I appreciate the encouragement.

  358. TexasConnie

    Looks like a really neat book idea – best of luck with it.

    Your site brings back the whole question of internet anonymity. I remember Laurie Allen commented a lot on Brooke’s blog and got loads of bile and hate directed her way. I don’t know why she stopped commenting. Perhaps she just got busy.

    Hmmm, Austin? Gee, you never know Duane could be your next door neighbor.

  359. Naw, Duane’s in Hutto, only sorta Austin. I’m about 50 miles from you myself, Connie. Maybe we can get together when the weather cools off.

  360. Only in Utah

    Parents prepare to protest live broadcast by Obama to students

  361. TexasConnie, GREAT site! Thanks for sharing that!

    My sympathies on Grace’s passing. I have lots of cute baby kitties right now — need a new best friend?

  362. Connie – enjoyed looking at your site. You are on our blogroll now. Can’t wait to read your book.

  363. Ron – thanks. I’ve thought seriously about the privacy issue. But if anybody wanted to, it wouldn’t be that hard to figure out who I am. So a few years ago I just gave into the idea that there is no privacy on the Internet and I rarely use a screen name anymore. If I do, it’s one like TexasConnie, which contains part of my real name. I try to never post anything I would be embarrassed to read in the newspaper. Usually I’m successful. 🙂

    Duh-Duane is in Hutto? Better warn my friends who live there. (just kidding)

    Hey, Rattle. I’d love to get together. But I’m beginning to wonder if it will ever cool off. Austin is not supposed to be desert but it’s looking like it now. 31-inch rainfall deficit in two years.

    FLDS Texas — thanks a bunch. I’m in the process of looking for an agent as well as working on the manuscript. I was in the publishing industry for a few years, so I know how the process works. I worked my way up from ghostwriter to “with” author. Now I want one with just my name on the cover. 🙂

  364. TexasConnie, if you think it’s desert-like in Austin, you should try living on a ranch in the hill country where all the creeks and tanks are dry.

  365. Rattle, I can’t even imagine what farmers and ranchers are dealing with this year. BTW, I love the Hill Country and would love to retire there some day.

  366. Had to take off early yesterday, and just catching up.. Texas Connie, love your site! It’s amazing to me how many Texans know so much about Flds, when Flds themselves didn’t believe anyone knew much about them at all other than people in Utah and Arizona.
    Just goes to show, there are lots of folks all over the country who know, and care and are willing to help and stand behind those who want freedom of thought and freedom to make their own choices.. 🙂

  367. DD, I actually started working on this novel just before Warren Jeffs was put on the FBI Most Wanted list. Had to set it aside to go back to work full-time, but the story wouldn’t leave me alone and a couple of months ago I picked it back up.

    I’ve been interested in religious cults since the days of Jim Jones. I followed the David Koresh story closely, and when I found out the FLDS had moved to Texas under the pretext of a “hunting lodge,” I began to study up on the group. My heart breaks for the women and children who live without freedom of choice, as you said.

  368. “The Court will not address in the defense counsel’s Reply the request that the State be ordered to pay expenses to go to Texas to depose Ms. Musser because the deposition will take place at a time and place of his choosing.”

    Pretty huge win. Defense counsel for Warren Jeffs gets to depose Ms. Musser at a time and place of his choosing. It’s fun watching these cases fall apart because of Texas trying to play fast and loose with the rules of discovery and the 5th amendment.

    Rebecca is ordered to comply.

  369. Alinusara I can see you don’t read or comprehend well either.
    Judge Conn made a point in stating HE NEVER ordered Rebbeca Mussser to be deposed April 2009!!
    He also made a point of saying there was NO way in hell the state would pay for Expenses for Piccaretta to travel to Texas to depose Rebecca Musser.
    Seems Judge Conn was scratching his head on quit abit of this because he never recieved one of the motions evidently filed by Piccaretta.
    Piccarreta may depose Rebbecca Musser, but what she will answer will be up to her,,kinda like Willie and Merril.. I refuse to answer on the 5th amendment… Total waste of court time and deposition time.

  370. “It’s fun watching these cases fall apart because of Texas trying to play fast and loose with the rules of discovery and the 5th amendment.”

    LOL! Falling apart? Wishful thinking rears its head again.

    Funny how Alin is incapable of discovering anything detrimental to the FLDS for itself but is perfectly capable of reading articles it thinks supports its position…

  371. This isn’t a win Alinusara , its lawyers stalling for time, and getting paid BIG bucks by FLDS people who can’t afford to continue paying.

  372. TexasConnie,

    Thanks for sharing your site with us I enjoyed looking at it. I really like the layout along with the content. Your site is another great resource.

  373. The web site where Alinusara got that court document is a really offbeat web site not usually known or accessed by the general public.

    I find it interesting that this person constantly asks other posters to provide documentation of easy to find items – often posted right here on this blog, yet can find an obscure web site and link to documentation from it.

    Seems pretty selective to me.

  374. Judge Conn made a point in stating HE NEVER ordered Rebbeca Mussser to be deposed April 2009!!
    The Hell?!? Page 2 directly says “The court never amended it’s order directing her to be disposed on April 30, 2009 and does not recall ever being asked to do so.

    Looks like you missed out on the reading comprehension.
    He also made a point of saying there was NO way in hell the state would pay for Expenses for Piccaretta to travel to Texas to depose Rebecca Musser.
    He doesn’t have to because he allows Piccaretta to pick a time and place of his choosing.
    This isn’t a win Alinusara , its lawyers stalling for time, and getting paid BIG bucks by FLDS people who can’t afford to continue paying.
    If you are worried about what they can afford I’m sure you can contribute to their legal fund. Sides it looks like Texas is delaying not the defense; they wanted Rebecca to be deposed by April 30 and here we are 5 months later.
    Piccarreta may depose Rebbecca Musser, but what she will answer will be up to her,,kinda like Willie and Merril.. I refuse to answer on the 5th amendment…
    If something she says may incriminate her then sure she can plead the 5th. I would love to see her get a blanket immunity just to see what comes out.

  375. Geez, Anon 1:36, ya think?

  376. Heh! I was asked to provide documentation. I finally do so and Y’all still complain. Sheesh!

  377. Gee, a pretrial order granting a deposition and you’d think they’d found the holy grail. So, when she answers the one question about when she talked to Texas LE how is that going to help Warren’s case?

  378. It is very amusing how any ruling even slightly favorable to them is a “WIN” and any ruling they disagree with is “PERSECUTION”. 😆

  379. Frankly, I don’t see how the judge would have ruled any other way. A judge will uphold a previous order unless there is good reason not to. And it would have been odd indeed for the judge to order a deposition to take place in another state. I guess now the ball is in Picaretta’s court. I too, however, wonder just what the answer to that ONE question has to do with Warren Jeffs’ trial. What does Texas have to do with what Warren did in Arizona?

  380. TexasConnie like your blog site and I am not certain of your fictional novel? Seems the real story is beyond belief! Any story about a teen age girl eluding the clutches of becoming a Child Bride has to make a good storyline. I wonder what LE and CPS do after convictions of the “Dirty Dozen” begins to happen and the proviso ‘innocent until proven guilty’ begins to dawn? All the FLDS children returned to the FLDS Raunch will be farmed out to other ‘Lands of Refuge’ as a way to circumvent CPS oversight? I understand right now that the children are seen even less frequently than before which makes me wonder if their days are all spent inside and outside activities have become taboo? Shouldn’t there be some case work follow-up to these returned FLDS children to verify their presence, health, well being or files updating?

  381. Susie, was that written before anyone knew anything about Warren Jeffs?

    cement said this on September 2, 2009 at 11:42 PM

    Yes cement it was. Fits all cult leaders like a shoe.
    It came off of Steve Hassan website

    Ecclesiastes 1:9 What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

    Warren is just another cult leader gone astray.

  382. Personally, I think the Court itself is in a mess. The Judge doesn’t seem to have the filings, nor does he know when or where rebecca musser was to be deposed. Mr Piccarreta was on vacation several weeks in oregon, and although had phone calls with Rebecca Musser, she agreed to being deposed but in Texas.
    Mr Piccarreta asks the STATE to pay his expenses for going to Texas to depose Rebecca Musser,,, LOL

  383. CaJIM, one of the problems with writing a novel on this topic is the platitude “truth is stranger than fiction.” That’s really on my mind as I write the synopsis and get ready to shop the story with a publisher. I run the risk of the story seeming implausible to those who know nothing about the truth of these girls’ situation.

    I’ve read some excellent memoirs but I feel there is a market for a novel on the topic. A lot of people will read fiction that won’t read biographies or nonfiction narratives.

    Rozita, the design for my web site is a free template that anyone on can use. Thanks for your comment.

  384. TexasConnie one of the most implausible story lines is Carolyn Jessops, “Escape” nobody is going to believe the wife of one of the top Leaders walks out of her marriage after 17 years and eight children, she leaves and takes all of her children with her.

    Truth is more implausible than fiction.

    The parallels today of the Nauvoo history and the haunting aspects of early Mormonism being alive and well amongst the fundamentalists is spellbinding, so many of the beliefs preserved and alive from the 1830-40s. Investigate the”Pearl of Great Price” scripture wherein the Book of Moses which seems to explain FLDS actions today.

  385. Texas Connie,
    Elaine Jeffs lives in texas,, she might be a good source, if you can get her to talk to you. She is no longer Flds, and is Warren’s sister.

  386. caJIM – agree about the tie to early Mormonism. I’ve done quite a bit of reading on that, and it’s eerie. That’s one reason I was captivated by Ann-Eliza Young’s 1875 memoir, Wife No. 19. Even when you discount the 19th-century sentimentalism and tendency to hyperbole, it has the ring of truth to it. And the emotions Ann-Eliza expresses–the loneliness, sense of abandonment, manipulations, etc.–are comparable to what I’ve read in contemporary memoirs.

    DeputyDog, it would be very interesting to interview Elaine Jeffs. I didn’t know she was in Texas; I saw her in the Banking on Heaven video.

  387. Connie during your internet travels could you keep an eye open for the passing of the keys?

    If John Taylor wouldn’t have had his vision would their have been all the splinter groups?

    Will you be going to the trials?

  388. The Lebarons skipped the 1886 meeting and revelation and get their authority from Benjamin Johnson. One way or another, it probably would have still happened, just differently.

  389. Cement
    You are no longer in Flds, is that correct?

  390. Walton, I hope to make some portion of the trials, but it’s far enough away for me that I can’t be a regular attendee.

  391. You can if you have a puter, duh!

  392. I’m not an “half-hearted” insider playing “po ker” that doesn’t really believe. The leadership was informed of my decision to leave in 2005. Once I realized it was wrong, I didn’t bluff at all; I told the leaders up front I was done.

  393. Walton: The mainstream LDS do not believe that John Taylor had the revelations touted by many fundie groups as the source of their priesthood authority. The mainstream belief is that the apostolitic succession was followed in that the senior apostle, Wilford Woodruff, became the new president.

  394. chemist I had a dream that I was young again but the dream didn’t really make it so.

    With all the history and info being made available I think there is more to show that John Taylor believed he did have a visit. I am not saying that what he believed is true but he believed it to be so.

    Info re: John Taylor:

    Info re: Wilford Woodruff:

  395. cement

    I admire your ability to firmly decide what’s right for you and to act on it without waiver. It took courage to do what you did.

  396. Walton:
    Whether John Taylor did or did not have such a vision and whether he did or did not ordain John Wooley and others to continue polygamy is shrouded in controversy. Apparently it was not documented and recorded at the time it supposedly happened in such a way as to eliminate any possible ambiguity. Ergo, different people and groups have different takes on it. That situation will continue.

  397. I would point out that the present issue in the FLDS Church on who is the proper successive leader has once again fallen into dispute(s). Warren S. Jeffs even recanted his Prophetship and then withdrew it saying he was testing his congregations faithfulness?

    There is no question that the LDS Church has excommunicated the FLDS Church from it’s association(s) and disavows several of the precepts or tenets espoused by them.

  398. Texasconnie–I thought I read/heard that Elaine Jeffs was in Tyler…but, not really sure about that. I think an interview with her would be grand!!! I’m wondering why someone has not already visited with her??? Maybe she won’t do it???
    Yep–I would love to go the some of the trials–but, that’s a long way for me too!!

  399. chemist I agree the LDS Church as it stands does condone the practice of Polygamy today.

    Even if it were properly documented that John Taylor had the dream it would have still been against the LDS Church rules back then. Right?

    They had a group of 12 that voted on such things am I right?

    And please I want no one to take offense. I have great admiration for the earlier LDS settlers. I might not believe everything that they do but I admire their strength and their determination. I am still just trying to figure out the whole key thing.

  400. cajlm did you know that Rulon Jeffs still considered himself LDS. I could go digging ( It would take me a long time to find this one) but I believe it was recorded on some court documents concerning some property issues.

    I believe he was being interviewed by someone and Perker was there.

  401. I said: chemist I agree the LDS Church as it stands does condone the practice of Polygamy today.

    I meant to type DOES NOT condone the practice of Polygamy today.

    Does NOT.


  402. Two items:
    1. The lds have a succession program where the senior apostle becomes the new president when a president dies. That is known and very transparent. For John Taylor to have had the revelation in question and ordained John Wooley in secrecy would have been counter to the established procedures. Also, the quorum of 12 apostles approves any revelations. There is no indication that the JT revelation to Wooley was ever brought to the quorum of the twelve.
    Two: Spot Light has posted on the SLT comment board that Lyle Jeffs is to be the new flds leader. Interesting, how and when did the priesthood keys get passed from warren on to lyle??

  403. 1. I don’t know the poster Spot Light. Lyle Jeffs can’t be the new FLDS leader. Warren wasn’t a Prophet and neither was Rulon. imo

    It can’t be passed on to Lyle just because they are brothers.

    Besides isn’t Lyle also looking at some jail time?

    2. Not to take away anything from John Taylor but he was also practicing polygamy and living in hiding at the time of his death. So “following the rules” for John Taylor wasn’t really what he was doing near the end. jmo

  404. Walton: I find the flds leadership situation quite interesting. I think previous leaders have been the leaders for life so making a change while the old leader is still alive is quite different than what has gone on before. It sounds like it is becoming a jeffs’ dynasty, going from father to son and perhaps now to a brother. I have no documentation or sources for lyle being the new leader, just some posts on a comment board. Would love to have some confirmation for it.

  405. chemist there was a book written by Richard E. Turley, Ronald Walker and Glen M. Leonard titled Massacre at Mountain Meadows. I thought they did a most excellent job.

    I am hoping that they will also write one concerning the FLDS and the other splinter groups. I realize that they are LDS but they were really good at finding documentation.

    Who knows? Maybe one day I will find out.

  406. Lyle Jeffs was one of the many witnesses that stood by and watched little girls get married. And did nothing. For the life of me I don’t understand why anyone would look up to him and want him for a leader.

    Seems to me when the FLDS say they don’t own any property out right, I think there are some properties listed in Lyles name.

    If they were to walk Lyle into a courtroom partially covered by a jacket and surrounded by police Lyle might look like Warren but that would be the closest he should be to becoming the Prophet. again jmo

  407. How about maybe they shouldn’t have a prophet at all anymore?

  408. Walton: Yes, I read that book about the Mountain Meadows Massace and concur that it was very good. A non LDS author named Juanita Brookes also wrote a book on that topic many years ago. I read her book and thought it was well done. More material has come to light in recent years so Turley etal had access to more things than were available to Ms. Brookes.
    My opinion re: Lyle Jeffs as the flds leader is the same as yours, however we really don’t have a say in this one.

  409. I think people can vote on Church Presidents but I don’t think Prophets are picked by man but chosen by God.

    I think there was a whole lot of hand-me-downs and there have been very few “Prophets”.

    Cement said something a while ago (not sure if it is in this thread or not) but he said that he follows no man. I remember being very impressed with his words.

    Maybe faith shouldn’t be in another mans words but ones own heart. Yes?

  410. I know this probably gets close to the off topic religious discussion but why would anyone follow the nighttime voices of someone else? Seems seriously strange to me.

  411. It’s exciting to think that you are among the select few who know and interact with God’s own Living Prophet. It gives importance and meaning to the lives of even the most ignorant, unimportant and impoverished peasants trying to scrape a living out of a desert. That, and they are telling you to do what you wanted to do anyway, like have sex with the cute teenager next door.

  412. Well, until you get the profit out of being prophet, they’ll all be false.

    Now, the stinky hairy guy living in the woods and eating locusts and honey, that’s a true prophet (well either that or the unibomber!)

  413. I think some of the “Dirty Dozen” as stamp puts it, and which I dislike because I grew up with those men–I think some of those men were as tried in their feelings as Heber Kimball was when told to marry a young lady and not let Volate know about it. I wouldn’t say they went around salivating whenever they saw a young girl. Religion gets people persuaded to do things their own internal churnings disagree with.

  414. What I meant is I dislike using the term “Dirty Dozen”.

  415. Jobo, the only time I have seen Elaine Jeffs (Warren’s sister) interviewed was in the Banking on Heaven video. That was the first time I knew he had a sister who had left the cult. Given the notoriety of her brother (and probable threats to her safety) I imagine she avoids any kind of publicity. Courageous woman, though. I would love to know more about her.

  416. Thanks, cement. I think you are right. And if you have a polygamist family with many wives already, an young teen with few life skills and very little emotional maturity has got to be more of a liability than a benefit.

    Not that that makes their crimes any less. I recently read “Favorite Wife” and was interested in the group dynamics that lead to actually killing people, slowly over years of repeating the idea.

  417. texasconnie–I can’t really blame Elaine for keeping out of the spotlight–never know..she could have had threats from the Jeffs family..????
    However–it would be good th hear her story!!!!

  418. In this 2006 interview w/ Anderson Cooper, right after Warren was captured, Elaine Jeffs said she was the oldest of 65 children. That is so hard for me to wrap my brain around.

  419. I can wrap my brain around 65 children quicken than 180 wives.

  420. Cement, actually Juanita Brooks was a very devout LDS church member. After she wrote her book about the MMM she was shunned by people in St. George and pretty much cut off from society in the area. It hurt her deeply. She believed in her church with all her heart and felt that “only the truth is good enough for my church”. Seems church members didn’t feel the same. She was not excommunicated, but she came close. I know this because her son, Karl, has told me this.

  421. Cement
    I agree with you that for many men it isn’t about lust – in fact I think nearly all the men I know personally would have a difficult time taking multiple young wives – but then I hang with a monogamous crowd and find the whole concept that men have to have the outlet of polygamy as a safety valve to prevent “serial monogamy” and/or adultery to be profoundly sexist and anti-male.

  422. Cement if I could impose upon you to expand some greater details on the pressure and intimidation used by the Priesthood to keep the men aligned to the Prophets dictates. Carolyn Jessop shares that wives and making the celestial matches gives the Prophet enormous powers and governs his control on who weds and when. What’s your view on the true choices the men really have to resist or refuse.
    I think the priest are left always under a black light and some have resisted and suffered consequences of wife(s) and family.

    Maybe we should term the men,”Warren’s Warren”( as in rabbits).

  423. Cement,
    one thing, among many, I don’t understand about FLDS beliefs – so God requires at least three wives (don’t believe, it accept it for the purpose of argument) why on earth would the congregation believe that the prophet gets those 180 wives when so many don’t get any or only one or only two? If the prophet is looking out for the spiritual needs of the congregation shouldn’t he be helping them on their religious journey not making it harder by taking all the women? AND, why do they all have to be so young?

  424. The more wives and children in Flds, the higher Celestial heaven you will recieve.
    Cement, please accept my apology ahead of time for what Im going to say.
    But, Religion doesn’t make a human being do anything! It’s each person’s responsibility to test the doctrine and the scripture.
    Much of Religion in general is taught in FEAR,, Fear of dying and being damned forever. Fear of being ostersized by others, if you do something wrong. Fear of losing your church, or church family, or personal family.
    It’s not up to your pastor, or bishop or prophet to decide your life for you, it’s up to the individual the choses we make, even the bad ones, and when we make bad ones, we learn how try and avoid that same mistake again. But it certainly isn’t anyone else’s fault but our own.

  425. I’ll just say that I was 33 before my moral compass developed to the point of facing the intimidation of “losing your salvation, betraying your birthright and noble parents” and eveything else Pliggy has tried to shame me with (he’s just parroting what he hears) and telling the leaders I was done. Do you expect a 12 year old girl to have a sufficient moral compass? And let’s not forget that these 12 year olds are kept so isolated that many aren’t even aware of the “facts of life” when they make their choice.

  426. Cement, which is EXACTLY why they shouldn’t be getting “married” at age 12!

  427. Cement,
    I believe that girls as young as 12, know right from wrong, just like a 6yr old does, regardless where they live. The fact a child is isolated keeps her from getting the help she needs help, and information (education) to understand why her own adult family members would put her in the position of getting married so young. The truth is children in insular know right and wrong, but have no rights to question or say no. I would suspect a 12 yr old girl to begin being interested in 12 yr old boys, which is part of puberty, but NOT marrying and having babies,because the POWER of the group said so. I don’t even believe the 12-14 yr old girls are allowed to make that choice,and the few who have, ended up running away when they saw an opportunity.

  428. Cement I have read interview after interview, and books, and articles from women who were once in Flds. Women who figured out what their course in life would be early in childhood, didn’t understand completely till they were told they were getting married.
    Parents have an obligation to protect and defend their children till they become of age ,which in most states is 17yrs old.
    For parents to do nothing to keep their daughters from marrying underage, whether mother or father or both, is criminal. To make matches with the Power of the church in order to get in better graces with HIM, is wrong, sad, and give HIM to much power on the parents and the childrens lives.

  429. “I can wrap my brain around 65 children quicken than 180 wives.”

    That’s a whole lot of just needs and wants not met.

  430. Moroni Richard Allred, 23, 2729 W. Porthill Court, Hayden, Idaho, was arrested Thursday on charges of speeding, no proof of insurance, driving on a suspended license and outstanding warrant. Allred was booked into Purgatory Correctional Facility on $1,146 bail.

  431. It was me who said that Juanita Brookes was non LDS. Thanks anon: 2:01 for correcting my memory. Cement did not make that error. I did.

  432. Anyone ever hear of Adrienne Blackmore?

  433. Man, can’t the government hire better clerks? They clearly added an “i” after the first name of Mr. Allred.

  434. LOL – Good one. I had to scroll back, but it was worth it.

  435. DD, here is where I see the difference of children “knowing” right from wrong, and this also plays into the difference between “brainwashed” and indoctrinated”. If a child from brith is taught from birth that what we call an apple is called an orange and everyone they ever come into contact call it an orange, they do not know they are wrong, this is indoctrinated into them. If a child is from birth to age 12 is taught that an apple is an apple then some “prophet” comes along and tells them over and over that it is an orange, punishes them every time they call it an apple, over a period of time will only feed them if they call it an orange, so after a period of time the child even though that know differently start calling it an orange that is brainwashed.

    From birth the females of the FLDS are taught that their purpose in life is to marry whomever the “prophet” tells them to and give birth to as many children as they can. Every female they ever come into contact has been taught this from the time of their birth. Every man around them has also been taught this from birth. A girl at 12 years old that has been taught this from birth, has only been around people that have also been taught this from birth does not “know” that it is wrong.

  436. LadySadie to an extent I agree, but I also saw many girls at the age of 14 leave ,run away,, ie Fawn Broadbent, Fawn Holm, for fear their names were coming up for marriage. Maybe in years past, such as when Carolyn was married, she was doing as she was told,but then in years after, girls began to realize whether through evolution or something, they wanted more than marriage and yearly babies and started running.

  437. The worst type of brainwashing is not calling an apple an orange, but saying “You don’t need that heathen water. If you are thirsty, you need to pray harder.” And then attacking the character of those with not enough character to abstain from the heathen water, while the elite secretly sip while no one is watching.

    By water, I am referring to recreation, if you need to understand the metaphore.

  438. DD, I think it has to do with what extent they or members of their family (then bringing the stories/actions home) are allowed access to the “outside” world. Which is actually what I think was warrens intent with the YFZ compound, the more isolated he could keep the females and the more limited he could keep their contact with the outside world the more indoctrinated they would be. If Texas had not stepped in would some of these girls ever been exposed to anyone outside of warren’s elite?

  439. The ‘Lands of Refuge’ are a more concerning development and I would suggest a more dangerous escalation from the practices of previous Prophets. Not only has the enclave become more enclosed both physically but I think mentally closed in and withdrawn. Future enclaves being chosen for their secluded surroundings, within fenced and tower guarded enclosures with no outside contacts and remote from family homesteads is a very negative trend-line and further isolation portends greater dangers.

    Upon trials leading to convictions, sentencing and incarcerations something further to dismantle the organized covert crime aspects will need to be addressed by Federal Authorities. I was thinking that the Prophet was under lawful control but a shift in new leadership, especially, outside of prison control is another serious development elected officials and law enforcement to reckon with investigating and containing.

  440. Indoctrinating children to your way of thinking seems to be ok for Obama. But if it’s the FLDS, then let’s round up their kids and give them toys and pizza.

    Do I want to watch a video of Rev. Wright when I go to Sunday school? I actually wouldn’t mind, due to the entertainment value. But keep my kids away from these lunatics, let me do the brainwashing-they’re my kids. And so it is with the FLDS.


  441. But cement is it true brainwashing or is it indoctrination? There really is a big difference. If the person has never known what it is to have their thrist quenched, if from birth they have always been kept on the edge of dehydration, and told to pray harder when parched, is this indoctrination or brainwashing?

  442. WC you look yet you don’t see, you listen yet you don’t hear and you think your intelligent but you open your mouth and leave us no doubts. 80)

  443. Five years ago the book ‘Lenin’s Tomb’ dealt with the break up of the Soviet Union and recounted how the entire Russian population had to come to grips with all the lies, upon lies, upon lies that were amassed over an 80year successive series of Communist regimes. They weren’t the most advanced in science, they weren’t the first on the moon, they weren’t the biggest economy, the hadn’t won World War II, especially without American aid from ‘Lend Lease’, etc., etc. Their whole National identity, self esteem and ethnic pride had to under go a massive and very humiliating reality check before they could recover and find their proper place in the Real World order of things.

    FLDS church is faced with an identical situation, in order to remedy and put things right.

  444. WC why in hell don’t you just admit your racist!!! Because you certainly are. President Bush addressed School Children on the importance of math and science..President Reagan about Education and Reading.
    President Obama, is basically doing the same thing,, the importance of education and goals for children in their lives,,ALL children!!
    Your an ignorant SOB WC!!

  445. Cement, you mean like when Lyle Jeffs told Flds in the creek NOT to pay the taxes on their houses…. and no one did, but Lyle paid his taxes…..

  446. Maybe my tin foil hat is too shiny or something, but the FLDS get picked on for not being mainstream. When in reality, the “religion of popular culture” use alot of the same tactics you guys accuse the FLDS of using.


  447. Or maybe when Truman Barlow was designated to pick up property tax cash from members,, he would collect 5,000 , pocket 2,000 for himself and then stand up in the meeting and tell members, they were 2,000 short, and had to come up with another 2,000?

  448. WC, no one gives a crap about mainstream, what’s mainstream anymore anyway. The fact is President Obama, knows many kids drop out of school, and end up on the street, can’t get decent jobs, wanting children to have goals in life, and complete their educations is important to him and should be important to all families.
    But, its not about that, it’s the color of his skin you don’t like. And your to damn wimpy to admit it!

  449. deputydog,

    I appreciate your concern for stamping out racism, but that and child molester accusations get old when there’s no evidence to support it. I don’t remember much of a public outcry against Bush or Reagan, do you? So all the racists are coming out now complaining? Obama and Wright are closet socialists and Muslims, in my opinion, and that has nothing to do with their skin.

    I may not be that intelligent, but I do know what mainstream and average America is. And you can piss and moan all you want, but the FLDS aren’t going to join those philosophies, and I admire them for that.


  450. WC I didn’t vote for Obama, not because of color, because I didn’t vote for Mc Cain either,.
    Obama is muslim??? LOL Well now you’ve put on your tin foil hat WC. Your right, FLDS aren’t going to join any philosophy having to do with deceny and respect for children!! They will just continue on inbreeding, making sure their children are born with deformities that could be prevented, and sexually assaulting little girls. I figured YOU would admire them for that WC.

  451. The FLDS are decent and respectful towards children. Just ask cement why he diapproves of the term “dirty dozen” applied to the indicted men, and you will come a step closer to realizing who the real ignorant SOB is in this conversation.


  452. WC is your quest to defend FLDS and the children Men in FLDS abused both phyiscally, mentally and sexually I do have a question for you and your pal Medvecky.
    He continually degrades any LE, whether CPS, CASA, Judges etc.
    He posts sweet little white children on his blog and pleads they are well taken care of and all white children parents should sue CPS etc…..
    YOu might want to pass along to Mr Medvecky, that as 2008 most children in CPS foster care system weren’t white at all. .60% were hispanic , black or other nationalities.,,,
    What is his plan for these children ??? hmmmmmmm

  453. Most the the white children in Foster Care system were placed with a relative, or after a short time returned to their home under supervision.

  454. I don’t have to ask cement WC,, they are the “dirty dozen”, and there are plenty more just like them, and Im still baffeled why more weren’t indicted.

  455. You call it respectful for parents to give away little girls in marriage to old men WC??? You ingrate!!!!!

  456. Flds children don’t have to worry about gentiles or stranger danger, they live in a whole community of child abusers and call themselves “the chosen”

  457. Obama and Wright are closet socialists and Muslims, in my opinion, and that has nothing to do with their skin.

    Yep, and I’ll bet you think he was born in Kenya, huh? Geez, listen to Rush Limbaugh much?

  458. It feels like a dirty bomb full of bullsh** just went off. Limbaugh is a hypocrite. Just keep the politics and ideologies away from the kids, that’s all I ask.


  459. OK, as an educator myself, here is a big part of my problem with this “mandatory” and believe me it is mandatory speech to school children from Obama. I keep remembering news clips of Korean, Soviet and North Vietnam school children under “tents” with speakers being forced to listen to “speeches” from dictators piped in. This is EXACTLY the same thing!

  460. I find the massive outcry against Obama’s speech amusing. I could understand it AFTER the speech if people felt the need to critique it, but BEFORE the man has uttered a word? Yeah, I think it’s way more outrage than any one-time speech by a new president deserves — particularly since all those white presidents who did the same thing were not railed agianst.

    Maybe we should have nominated WC for the tinfoil hat award? He certainly seems to buy into conspiracy theories.

  461. And as a technology administrator, this MANDATORY speech by Obama has become a BIG pain in my arse personally! Lots of new schools are so technologically advanced that they don’t have conventional “TV’s”, they have HDTV tuners that are all computer driven and shows are “live” stream. If any district that has a lot of new schools try to show this “live” they will cripple and actually kill their networks. You try to figure a way around this mess!

  462. The difference, Sadie, is that Obama isn’t likely to do this again. It’s a one time thing that presidents do. Now if he was going to start having weekly or monthly speeches for the children I’d have issues with it. Once in four years doesn’t really mean anything, though, in my book.

  463. Ah but Rebeckah when you get a “directive” from the federal level that you “will” broadcast this speech it REALLY does mean something!

  464. Believe me Rebeckah this is NOT optional!

  465. Try understanding this one, the federal department of education bypassed upper administration and boards of education and sent the order to broadcast this directly to school principals.

  466. Everyone is so freaked out about politics right now. Why are we upset about insurance and talking to school kids but authorized torture and the Patriot Act didn’t seem to upset anyone?

  467. Betty who are the most impressionable among us? Children!

  468. Who are the “future” leaders? Children! It all goes back to the whole indoctrination thing, if you start them very young, and start “piping” their developing brains with something, what is the result?

  469. The Patriot Act was a step towards communism and socialism and to Obama’s credit, helped get that reversed.


  470. It may be mandatory to show it…but….turn a TV on in a room/the gym where the kids can go if they want to see it. Does the directive say EVERY CHILD must watch? Are they taking names and kickin’ @$$es if they dont watch? I also think this is much ado about nuttin’. It’slike the religious leaders that come out to comdemn a movie….that isn’t even out yet and that they have never seen. Maye the parent’s should go to school and watch it WITH their kids!

  471. “Piping” their devloping brains with…stay in good citizens…don’t do drugs…isn’t such a bad message. A lot of kids sure don’t get this [or any] encoiragement from home!

    –And we are spinning off topic….We may end up pushed to a new discussion group, like the religious topic, earlier—

  472. Soozie you may be someone who totally agrees with everything Obama says, but imagine that you are don’t, imagine that you are raising your child in line with your views, then sit back and think that you find out that your child’s school is teaching them something that is totally opposite of your views. As a parent wouldn’t you want to see something BEFORE your child sees is not WITH your child? But before so that you get to make the decision whether it is something you want your child exposed to?

  473. Every day schools, churches, TV commercials, people passing by pass on opinions and views that you cannot 100% regulate so that your child ONLY hears what you as a parent want them to hear I just think the hysteria over this speech is getting a bit much.

  474. Ladysadie…the “hysteria” comment was not at you…I mean the public in general. I wasn’t slinging stuff across the room at ya…

  475. Soozie, I just really have a BIG problem with this being mandatory for school districts.

  476. What next is Obama going to make “mandatory”? Are all school children going to required to wear military uniforms, and everyday at a mandatory time be piped in speeches from their dictator?

  477. Could Obama’s speech be as bad as President Bush’s? “To the honor students, I congradulate you. To those with C’s and D’s, just remember, you too can become president.”

  478. LOL! Did Bush really say that, Cement? I love it!

  479. What next is Obama going to make “mandatory”? Are all school children going to required to wear military uniforms, and everyday at a mandatory time be piped in speeches from their dictator?

    —okay I take it back…this does border a bit on hysteria.—

  480. lol. that’s not hysteria. this is hysteria

  481. LadySadie,

    Obama did not make it mandatory. The state education department did. I just saw a news story listing how each STATE is handling it. Lots are not showing it, many are making it optional by locality, etc. The education department, not Obama, made the work sheets.

    Was George Bush Sr being a dictator when he did the same thing in 1991? Did the world as we know it come to an end?

  482. Well I can’t speak to Sadie’s experience, but here’s a quote from an article in the Philadelphia Inquirer.

    But despite urging from Govs. Corzine and Rendell, the Pennsylvania State Education Association, and the federal and Pennsylvania education secretaries, there seemed no rush among 15 school districts surveyed yesterday to broadcast the speech live in their classrooms.

  483. Utah is making it optional. Parents can opt-out for their children and have the children do some other educational activity during the speech.

    State Board won’t censor Obama talk to students

    State Superintendent Larry Shumway sent a message to school districts and charter schools this week reiterating the U.S. Department of Education’s information that Obama’s message “is intended to remind students of `the importance of taking responsibility for their education, challenging them to set goals and to do everything they can to succeed.’ ”

    Shumway further stated district superintendents can decide whether their schools will air the broadcast — or leave it up to principals and teachers. “There is no requirement from the Utah State Office of Education, the U.S. Department of Education or from the president that any student watch,” Shumway stated.

  484. It must not be mandatory in Texas–looks like they are leaving it up to each school district to show it or not show it…
    In my little area of Texas–no schools are showing it–they are going to tape it for later use–if desired; but also sending a note home for parents to sign if they don’t want their children to watch it, if teacher decides to use it.
    Some small schools in our area don’t have the technology to show it to all classes at the same time.

  485. Three cheers for the Constitution. Ashcroft can be held liable.

    “Sadly, however, even now, more than 217 years after the ratification of the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution, some confidently assert that the government has the power to arrest and detain or restrict American citizens for months on end, in sometimes primitive conditions, not because there is evidence that they have committed a crime, but merely because the government wishes to investigate them for possible wrongdoing, or to prevent them from having contact with others in the outside world,” Judge Milan Smith Jr., for the majority. “We find this to be repugnant to the Constitution and a painful reminder of some of the most ignominious chapters of our national history.”

    It even overrides qualified immunity which is fairly rare.

  486. cement and chemist, I apologize for getting you two mixed up.

  487. I find it rather amusing that the parents that are screaming about their kids watching our Commander In Chief address our nations school children about working hard–staying in school–are the same parents that allow their kids to play endless hours of video games that hurt and kill other
    people. Seems things are a bit out of balance here!!!!

    Alin–huh??? what the heck are ya talking about???

  488. What next is Obama going to make “mandatory”? Are all school children going to required to wear military uniforms, and everyday at a mandatory time be piped in speeches from their dictator?

    Ladiesadie, this hysterical rant confirms my already low opinion of you, even more so than than pretty much everyone else on this board. His speech was pretty much void of partisan politices and nothing was said anything about requiring uniforms. BTW, some schools already do that in order to discourage gang attire and help low income parents who may feel pressured by their children into buying expensive clothes becasue of pressure by their more well heeled peers.
    What exactly does your school teach to their students? They are “indoctrinating” them with something…we all have been “indoctrinated” by our parents, schools, and peers. One of the biggest issues the polygamy controversy brings to the frontburner is the question of which idealogy is the proper one to “indoctrinate” the children with and who should make that determination, which IMO no person or government agency should be given that power. In Germany home schooling is illegal, hopefully we will never reach that point here in the US.

  489. How do you know what Obama is going to say? Have you already seen the video? School curriculum is reviewed before presented to children, this is a live broadcast. Children should be taught ideals and morals from their parents, they don’t need it from a politician.

    As for staying in school, it is a good idea- but there are success stories of people who didn’t have much schooling. I personally know some one who had one semester of junior college and is now worth 8 fugures- and that still is not to say success is measured in dollars, because it’s not.

    What Obama has to say is probably better than alot of influences that happen in public schools. But children shouldn’t be forced to listen to it,no matter how good it is.

  490. This argument reminds me of CPS saying what harm was there in giving the kids toys and pizza when they were in captivity. The point is not whether it’s good or bad for them- it’s the fact that CPS was doing it. That’s the problem.

  491. WC–show me “where” anyone said the children were “forced” to watch the president?

  492. I don’t think the speech is such a big deal. From what I understand, it is up to the individual schools and students could opt out. Also, it only applies to public schools, not private or homeschooled children. Another thing is that this whole controversy has exposed students to the political issues of the day. Whether you think “politics” is a dirty word or not, it is “politics” that determine how much control government has over our lives and the amount of personal freedom we are entitled to.

    That is why I hope marginalized and unpopular groups like Fundie Mormons become more involved in political issues and make every effort to encourage their people to go out and vote. Especially in Schleicher County and Custer county Utah and SD. In fact many folks did not like the fact that the FLDS avoided the local communities, so for them to become politcally involved and make use of the ballot box should be a good thing in the eyes of suspicious indigneous residents.

    School officials in Wylie decided to record the speech, review it and then let individual teachers show it, offering students the opportunity to avoid listening if they wished.

    In Houston, teachers have been asked to tell parents if they intend to show the speech and the schools will provide an alternative class for those whose parents object, a spokesman for the district, Lee Vela, said.

    This is a far cry from requiring military uniforms.
    Another thing is I’m not necessarily for school uniforms but do see the logic behind it.

  493. “What Obama has to say is probably better than alot of influences that happen in public schools. But children shouldn’t be forced to listen to it,no matter how good it is.”

    When you come right down to it, no one is going to be “forced” to watch anything. Any parents who don’t like it don’t have to send their children to school that day. It isn’t madatory and there aren’t any punishments for parents or children who choose not to watch it. And I guarantee you that 95% of all the students who DO watch it are going to be fidgiting, talking to their neighbors, twiddling their fingers and otherwise totally ignoring what is said. This is really a non-issue in my mind. However I can understand Sadie’s frustration with the fact that she has to try and prepare unprepared schools to recieve the broadcast when their technology isn’t ready for it. That would be a logistical nightmare.

  494. Im not so sure whatever the president says to school children many of them would be offended, in fact, I doubt kindergardener’s will get it at all.
    If my children were still in school, even though I didn’t support or vote for him, I would still allow them to hear the speech.
    When my children were in school, they weren’t allowed a television in their bedrooms, nor stereo’s, and we didn’t have video games. We ate supper together as a family, then the children sat at the dining room table doing their homework. We were there to help and encourage if they needed help.
    Yes, there have been successful people in the world, who didn’t have a sufficient education, or quit school completely.
    But in todays world, that no longer happens very often. In most states years ago you just had to have a GED to be a police officer. Now in most states it’s required you have a college degree.
    Unless you are willing to spend your life working in a convienence store or walmart, then it’s very important to get an education.

  495. Excuse me I nmeant Custer County Colorado not utah.

    When many police depts. tried to required cadets to have 4 year degrees, many of them couldn’t get enough recruites and had to lower their requirements. Ironically, the reason why many job titles require college degrees is simply because there are more college graduats. If fewer students went to college then more jobs would be open to those without degrees simply becasue there would not be enough college graduates to go around. I’m not speaking out against education but merely describing the reality of the situation. The beauty of the market is that if everyone went to college to be an engineer, teacher, lawyer, doctor, etc…then the payscale of janitors, auto techs, construction, retail, maids, and hospitality workers would skyrocket. Assuming of course, immigration doesn’t take up the slack.

  496. Some of those jobs taken by both legal and illegal immigration are jobs lots of Americans feel are beneath them. Not to start a whole new discussion thread, or get ‘yelled’ at by FLDS TEXAS admin for moving off topic…but…kids [and some adults] don’t wanna put in the work, and time, that it takes to work their way up the ladder to the highr paying jobs.They want the executive start! Today’s sad economy has way too many people scrambling for any job avail. That’s a whole new discussion topic elsewhere….

    Now, back to topic–
    Anymore new rumors on a ‘new leader’ to take the helm? Or will Willie keep on speaking [and speaking and speaking!] for a group of people that he’s said he doesn’t speak for. I’ve seen different names mentioned as a posssible new leader.

  497. Lyle Jessop is the new prophet

  498. Interesting, thanks. I’d seen the name bandied about and some possible objections noted and succession issues mentioned. I just wasn’t sure he’d been the “chosen one”. I hope he has more sense than his bother. They don’t need another dictator….unless he is just going to be an arm of WJ from jail. I guess I’ll need to go read up on him.

  499. deputydog, how do you know that?

  500. Actually, Im sure FLDS are horrified of lyle jeffs, hes worse than warren.

  501. He looks mean!!!

    Sorta has crazy eyes..

  502. Inside source texas rattle.

  503. deputydawg, is your source saying it is lyle jeffs or lyle jessop?

  504. Gosh, duane, you’re on the inside, you should know!

  505. One third of Utah inmates are sex offenders, the highest percentage in the nation.

    That means about one in three criminals has sexually abused a boy or girl, raped a woman, exploited a minor, enticed children over the Internet, had sex with a teenager or sodomized a child.

    The vast majority of the 1,892 currently incarcerated sex offenders prey on children.

  506. duane, Lyle Steed Jeffs

  507. Child therapist Angela Shields, pausing before an appointment with a 5-year-old who’d been raped by a 13-year-old neighbor boy, said, “People need to realize this can happen in any neighborhood at any time.”

    “I tried to make her believe: ‘We aren’t hurting anybody. I’m not hurting you.’ ” — Larry Burt 46, convicted of assaulting a young girl from 6 to 17, in a February

    interview from the Utah State Prison

    Every day, Utahns pass over headlines in the newspaper and clips on TV that lay out the legacy of sex abuse against adults and children.

    This week: “Provo man arrested in sex-abuse probe.”

    Last week: “Teacher pleads guilty in teen sex case.”

    Last month: “Pedophile to waive rights in sentencing.”

    One year ago: “Church leader charged in child sex-abuse case.”

    Five years ago: “Orem molester gets life in prison.”

    And as it turns out, these headlines are only the tip of the iceberg, because for every sexual assault case prosecuted, there are hundreds more incidents where a victim didn’t tell, wasn’t believed, didn’t pursue charges or wasn’t brave enough to take the stand at trial.

  508. Still, the Utah State Prison is bursting at the seams with an unprecedented high population of sex offenders among its inmate population.

    “He said if I told, he would go to jail and my mom would go into a mental hospital. He said my sister would leave me alone and I’d have to go to a foster home. He said no one would love me.” — 11-year-old Jenny in a therapy session, talking about herstepfather’s abuse

    Perpetrators aren’t, for the most part, guys who jump out of bushes. They are men you know. Men whose children play with your children. Men who attend your church. Men who teach or coach your children. Men who live in your house.

  509. “It’s more likely to be uncle so-and-so rather than someone who grabs them,” said Jeremy Shaw, a Adult Probation and Parole supervisor in the sex offender unit.

    It is a dirty, exhausting, secretive, heartbreaking phenomenon, says Heather Stringfellow, who took over the helm of the Rape Recovery Center of Utah after nine years as a sex crimes and domestic violence detective.

    And Utah is up to its neck in it.

    “Sex crimes continue to be that place where nobody really wants to go.” — Heather Stringfellow former sex crimes detective and director of Utah’s Rape Recovery center

    During a three-month investigation by the Deseret Morning News, reporters talked to 85 different people whose lives touch the pervasive and gut-wrenching issue of sexual abuse in Utah. Interviews included frank discussions with victims, therapists, investigators, judges, victim advocates, parole agents, doctors, corrections and government officials and more than two dozen sex offenders.

  510. The findings, reported in a four-day series that begins today, are startling and include the following details:

    • One in four girls — and one in eight boys — is sexually abused before age 18.

    • The average age of a victim is 10 years old.

    • Only 2 percent of perpetrators are a stranger to the victim. The rest are friends, relatives, baby sitters, acquaintances or members of their own family.

    • More than 70 percent of convicted sex offenders in the Utah State Prison are there for victimizing a child under age 18.

    • At Children’s Justice Centers throughout Utah, detectives interview children who are victims of all crimes. Between 85 and 90 percent of the crimes involve sexual abuse.

    • Of nearly 1,900 sex offenders in prison, only 120 are receiving treatment there. Despite repeated requests, the Legislature has not increased sex offender treatment funding in more than 10 years.

  511. Wow, DD1. Those are some startling–and very serious–statistics about sex offenders in Utah.

  512. I say WOW too!!!!

  513. Utah refuses to prosecute FLDS males for sexually abusing little girls.

  514. deputydog I am reading all this with much interest and I am trying to piece it all together. I can’t. I’ve a lot of questions but I will ask only one at this time.

    Do you think that sex offender treatment works? And if so, what details are there concerning those that never offend again and those that return to jail for repeat offenses?


  515. 11 years ago the following article was printed in the Salt Lake Tribune. Printed in a newspaper for all to read. Many to comment on. Many to certainly act upon. I wonder how many “officials” acted on this. And if they did what they did.

    Strange thing, here we are today.. facing the same issues. 11 years later.


    It might have been any wedding, anywhere in America.

    The one-story brick house in the tree-lined Bountiful neighborhood could barely contain the guests. Dozens of women and children and the few older men sat on folding chairs or leaned against walls.

    The father held his daughter by the arm and marched her down the makeshift aisle between the living and dining rooms. Then, as one of the leaders in his church, he performed the ceremony.

    But this wasn’t just any wedding. When Salt Lake attorney Carl E. Kingston gave away his 16-year-old daughter in holy matrimony that June day in 1987, the groom was his first cousin. And, the groom’s two other wives were in attendance, standing next to him in brides maid’s gowns as he exchanged vows with his newest wife.

    So another knot was tied in the Kingston group, a 1,500-member polygamist clan that for 60 years has seamlessly blended its estimated $150 million financial empire with the Salt Lake business community while zealously guarding the privacy of its religious practices.

    more at link:

  516. Walton

    Florida used to have a program, if a sex offender wanted an early release, they just need to have physical or chemical castration.

    I think that in those cases, the molesting stopped. That is a good cure!

  517. Oh, and I found a funny on Obama. It is a Kib-Jab clip, with even a short note on schools. I tend to think this should be played for school kids before that pesky speech!

  518. Oh and Walton

    Yeah, those little vignettes of endearing social activities in Utah –

    Look at the mess they got Utah in now, Ollie!

  519. Stamp I hope your internet provider works forever and a day. 🙂

    Castration hasn’t been proven to work. Some offenders get more violent when they continue to offend. I’ve yet to see any sex offender treatment be considered a success. I think that Sheriff in Arizona has the right idea. Jails overloaded? Tents might not be a bad idea. jmo Maybe Mark Shurtleff could get some ideas from the guy in Arizona. But then they would need the Judges in Utah and Arizona to send them there in the first place. jmo

    I liked the video.

  520. Right on Walton.

    You go Sheriff Joe!

  521. Walton

    Jib Jab has been a fave for years. They poke fun at both sids, so ya gotta be prepared for that lol. Obama is sure to stack up quite a few as the Jib Jab team has ramped up.

    Plus Obama is bound to give them ammo!


    Say the Castration solution may not be the cure all that execution provides, but its a start. Castrating fresh convicts at the start of a 20 year sentence ought to slow em down substantially.

    They will be more placid in prison too.

    “Dennis Carpenter, a clinical psychologist called by the defense, disagreed. Studies have shown, he said, that castration sharply reduces the risk of repeat offenses. One Danish study suggested the rate of repeat offenses dropped from 80 percent to 2.3 percent after surgical castration.”


  522. Walton

    Whats your take of Family Jeffs, Seth setting up fiber optic to capture internet traffic email and calls?

    What do you think of Lyle and how he may use those tools?

  523. “Do you think that sex offender treatment works? And if so, what details are there concerning those that never offend again and those that return to jail for repeat offenses?”

    From my research it appears that rehabilitation for sexual offenders is very low. Predatory and violent sex offenders are high on my list for death penalty sentences (this is not to be confused with Romeo and Juliet type offenders where it was not a predatory situation). I’m not fond of the death penalty but I believe those who are a danger to society, and in my opinion members of Nambla qualify for that description, should be removed permanently from society. I hate the lack of protection for children.

  524. Here is a good blast from the past, Bush vs Kerry

  525. Rebeckah

    Garrido was a perfect candidate for life sentence and castration the first go round, and NOW! The DP isnt even on the table!

    You are right, the molesters are coddled all too often. When society fights back and starts offing them, perhaps then LE will take the problem seriously.

  526. I don’t know – as much as I find myself looking at Garrido and thinking how much one bullet would save society a lot of effort, I know that the death penalty is no solution. It’s pretty clear Texas has likely executed an innocent man and there have been too many DNA exonerations to justify continued executions.

    I don’t know what to do about the recidivism rate of pedophiles. On one hand it seems like the only solution is some sort of pedophile leper colony.

  527. Stamp what are you talking about concerning Seth Jeffs? using the internet? emails? Seth I would think would be in the “dog house” with Warren for getting busted like he did.

    As far as Nathaniel Allred, from what I understand got caught up in the whirlwind of money and such. Stuck in the middle of the road you could say. Can’t go forward and can’t go back.

    From what I’ve read about Lyle Jeffs, he witnessed many a young girl get married before their time and didn’t do a thing. He told a few folks that they were kicked and didn’t raise his voice to defend or deny the charges brought against those getting kicked. Lyle Jeffs has seen an awful lot but imo is a yes man. Hasn’t learned the skills of thinking for himself. jmo

    What good is a yes man? We’ve witnessed that with Shurtleff. Doesn’t work. Not behind closed doors or in front of the public.

    On a different message board there was a poster named UnccaDuff. I don’t know who the guy is but he made more sense then any thing I’ve ever heard Warren, Willie, Rod Parker or Shurtleff say.

    Hey Stamp, if Warren had his head on straight and you could ask him one question… ok maybe 3 what would you ask him?

    regarding 2nd video: I like Hillary giving Bill what for. 🙂

  528. Ron

    DNA works both ways, perhaps if they use it in the CONVICTION that would release doubt and let the execution go on unhindered.

    On to that other pesky problem, not paying taxes. FLDS arent the only ones skippin but they sure arent getting the LE action to get their attention like this guy.



    MADISON, Wis. (Sept. 3) – A federal judge on Thursday sentenced former major league pitcher Jerry Koosman to six months in prison for not paying his taxes.
    Prosecutors say Koosman, a former All-Star who helped the New York Mets win the 1969 World Series, didn’t pay federal income taxes for 2002, 2003 and 2004. He pleaded guilty in May to willfully failing to file taxes for 2002, a misdemeanor, in a deal with prosecutors.
    U.S. District Judge Barbara Crabb found that Koosman cost the government as much as $80,000. She could have sentenced him to a full year in prison but chose to cut that in half and add a year of supervised release, during which probation agents will closely monitor his finances.
    Prosecutors say Koosman has filed returns for the missing years but still owes the government about $65,000.
    The judge scolded Koosman for taking advantage of all the opportunities the United States offered him, including the chance to play major league baseball and win a World Series, then walking away without paying.”

  529. Walton

    I’d ask Warren:

    “Is there any crack left? You arent supposed to smoke all of it at once!”

  530. Right now I am seeing a swarm of young adults who when they were home living with mom and dad were placed on different medications for different disorders. When they leave home so does the “normal” dosages prescribed by their caregivers.

    Some can’t afford the medicines needed. Some think they don’t need it. Some just don’t care. Tis a whole different world out there than it was when they were daily taking their meds.

    The same would be for those that are “suppose” to take medication.

    The only thing I’ve seen work for sex offenders is 4 walls and a door with a lock on it and someone else holding the key. imo that is the only way to “protect” society. Nothing else I’ve seen works. jmo

    more on chemical castration

  531. “Walton

    I’d ask Warren:

    “Is there any crack left? You arent supposed to smoke all of it at once!”

    There is no way that Warren did crack. he moved way toooo sloooow.

    Stamp are you familiar with the name Ken or Robert Weeks? And do you know anything about those Knudson boys?

  532. OR

    “Warren, are you satisfied with all the destructions you brought upon your Sheeple?”


    “Which Jail has better jail food? Draper prison, Purgatory, or Kingman?”

  533. DNA works both ways, perhaps if they use it in the CONVICTION that would release doubt and let the execution go on unhindered.

    Unfortunately, incompetence also works both ways. Houston has had a number of problems with invalid convictions due to our “crime lab.”

  534. I wonder what tax group Koosman was listening to? I just tried doing the google and couldn’t come up with anything. Maybe he’ll talk once inside???

    I’d want to know from Warren:
    1. Where is Johnny Jessops mom?
    2. Where is the young lady and son of the man that he fired for drinking?
    3. Who has the keys?

  535. The keys are lost in the sand. Warren never had them anyway, he just told people he did.

  536. Ron

    That leper colony for pedophiles sounds good. Wonder if Joe Araipo would open a tent city for them in the Yukon?

    Every spring there would be new bunk openings.

  537. Walton

    Seth has kept under the radar since he got his hand slapped for harboring, and Warren may have been angry he was blowing huge wads of cash on male prostitutes, but its like the MOB FAMILY I havent heard he was exed like pliggy –

    ESP since he was the gate keeper of the Sethnet. I reckon his fate in the FLDS depends on Lyles need for speed.

    Lyle may be pathologic, mice and men material, but what are the options? What other word have you heard?

    I heard he filed an afficavit with the court that he is THE man to make decisions IRT FLDS / Wisan / court.

    What other does that mean unless he is the skirt some other coward hides behind?

  538. “. It’s pretty clear Texas has likely executed an innocent man and there have been too many DNA exonerations to justify continued executions.”

    I will admit that false convictions are my biggest concern with any kind of death penalty. I’m well aware that they happen too often. (Once is too often in my book.)

    “I don’t know what to do about the recidivism rate of pedophiles. On one hand it seems like the only solution is some sort of pedophile leper colony.”

    That works too — maybe we can throw all the deadbeat parents into it as well and pay them minimum wage to farm organic produce or something. (And the pay would go to the victims and children that the inmates have harmed.)

  539. Walton

    So It seems Lyle is (“Of mice and men”) John Malkovich material?

    He gets blood atoned in the end though!

    Thats pretty harsh!

  540. Ron

    Perhaps there should be a tougher standard of proof for DP cases. I personally cannot remember one that occured and the man was found innocent, albeit posthumously.

    IRT Garrido, he was guilty guilty guilty, a righteous bust, and his release was nothing short of complete injustice! These kinds of cases will lock the doors on others looking for parole.

    Too bad for them!

  541. So, with a new leader….will Willie stop yappin? Is he one to take orders, now that he’s been the big man up front? As the new leader of the pack, does Lyle have to take in and care for WJ’s abandoned wives?

  542. Suzie

    at no time, that I can recall anyway, has any true flds leader or prophet ever made a statement to the press.

    So yes I think Willie will continue to be mouth and someone will tell him what to croak.

  543. As far as Warrens and gangs prison widows, that will present fresh challenges to the ever morphing flds.

    Perhaps they will have to call the YFZ Ranch “Abstinence Heaven”..

  544. Stamp I don’t know who really could be the leader.

    If a person goes wayyyy back which now is a good time to do it, if they truly believed in Joseph Smith they should follow the rules of the LDS Church. Even if John Taylor had the vision they still had to follow the rules of the Church.

    I understand that the there has been some contact between some of the FLDS members and some missionaries from the LDS Church. I think if they continue talking many members might slide over.

    If Shurtleff would quit holding hands with Mary Batchelor and Heidi it would help end some of the confusion imo.

    Where is Warrens brother Leroy?

  545. FLDS going LDS? Thats pretty deep.

    Well since the FLDS have had their head cut off pretty much since Rulon passed, they better grab their britches before they lose them all together.

    I still tend to think there will be multiple splits, in the 10 range not just 2-3 range.

    It’ll be interesting to watch because I tend to think YFZ new Braunfels and the other places of refuge are going to get sucked into the UEP / lawsuit messes.

    It’s obvious Warren stole and invested money there and the benies have a right to protection.

  546. I can’t copy and paste anything from this site but check it out.

  547. Stamp. I know some FLDS apostates who have joined the LDS church.

  548. When the sale of the Berry Knoll was being discussed the names Kenneth and Joe Knudsen surfaced. I’ve asked about them 3 times.
    1st time I thought no one saw my question.
    2nd time I thought maybe no one knew anything.
    3rd time I asked with still no response, not a I don’t know, I haven’t heard anything I thought hmmmm something is out there about Joe and Kenneth.

    Now why would ol Joe and Kenneth be so interested in a piece of property that is making the news? Hmmmm

    Well, I haven’t put all the pieces together yet. But I do believe I’ve some of the outside pieces forming this puzzle. (sorry about the long addy- I don’t know how to shorten it.) West Star Financial concerning the Knudsons now why would this be revoked?

    I think ol Joe and Kenneth might have some “history” that might be interesting. jmo

  549. Walton, I followed your links (I’m a trusting soul plus I have a mac) but I don’t get either the links or what you are inferring from them?

  550. I am not sure what the rules are concerning doing the copy past thing. If this is against the rules I apologize to the blog owner and won’t be offended if they remove it.

    Fictitious Names N/A
    Filing # 100096759
    Filing Type Foreign For Profit Corporation
    Filed under Act For Bus Corp; 958 of 1987
    Status Revoked 12/31/1997
    Principal Address
    Agent Address 417 SPRING STREET, LITTLE ROCK, AR 72201

    X, AR
    Date Filed 05/14/1992
    Officers KENNETH C. KNUDSON, President
    JOSEPH C. KNUDSON, Secretary
    SAME, Treasurer
    KENNETH C. KNUDSON, Vice-President
    Foreign Name N/A
    Foreign Address 1635 S. BERRY KNOLL BLVD., CENTENNIAL PARK, AZ 860
    X, X
    State of Origin UT

    Hellohellogoodbye: if I click on a bad link would I know? I have about as much knowledge of computers as I do legal stuff.

  551. Hellohellogoodbye I found that by doing the google West Star and Knudson.

    Now here is a little bit about Joe Knudson from the Stop Polygabuse message board.

    A little bit about a woman named Linda Earl and Joe Knudsen and his “charming ways”.

  552. Walton,
    Seth Jeffs is living at the YFZ with family.

    Warrenites only let Warrenites work for them.

  553. Thanks anonymous. Interesting. So after the bust Warren never kicked Seth? But kicked others out? Tore families apart for what reason? And some of those young kids got tossed because they watched tv. Grrr

    When I was doing the google dance I found something on the Stop Polygabuse message board about Joe Knudson and a woman (one of his wives?) named Linda Earl.

    Here is the link: The people that ran this site were dedicated and imo up front about what they said. jmo

  554. If I end up double posting it is because my posts aren’t going thru like they did before. Must be hanging in the air???

  555. hanks anonymous. Interesting. So after the bust Warren never kicked Seth? But kicked others out? Tore families apart for what reason? And some of those young kids got tossed because they watched tv. Grrr

    When I was doing the google dance I found something on the Stop Polygabuse message board about Joe Knudson and a woman (one of his wives?) named Linda Earl.

    Here is the link: The people that ran this site were dedicated and imo up front about what they said. jmo

  556. Ahhh I get it now. Sorry blog owner.

  557. Walton, there are a bunch of URL shorteners. My favorite is — just copy and paste your long URL there and it will reduce it to 15 characters. If you want to track analytics on a shortened URL — how many click-throughs, from where, etc. — use

  558. Walton

    Your long URL was to the Arkansas Secretary of State’s office. Apparently the Knudson’s corporation was doing business for a time in Arkansas. Corporations from one state must register to do business in another state.

    The most likely cause of them losing their registration is the failure to pay the required fees. My guess would be that they stopped doing business in Arkansas, failed to pay the fees, and subsequently lost their registration in Arkansas.

    There is probably not much there. It’s fairly common.

  559. Jason Jay Williams, 36, 615 S. 100 East, St. George, was arrested Saturday on charges of domestic violence simple assault, two charges of domestic violence in the presence of a child, domestic violence threatening against life and domestic violence criminal mischief. Williams was booked into Purgatory Correctional Facility on $5,831 bail.

  560. Texas Connie thanks for the links. I’ll practice before bringing anything over. As far as tracking how many click thrus I’d have to know what I was looking at and why. Clueless I am.

    Ron, I know that you and Bluesman are really good at understanding Walton talk and have figured out what I struggle to say at times.

    Figure this one out. If company A is one state and opens in another state and is not currently active, and is represented by another company in yet another state….. What does that mean?

    Or is this just Florida language?

    If you can make sense out of this I owe you two Hershey kisses and one Hershey Hug.

  561. Walton
    Whether you are self employed, or a corporation in Texas, you cannot do business in another state unless you register your business in the other state. Well, you can, but if you get caught, your in big trouble.
    You can operate in as many states as you want as long as you pay the state taxes in whatever state you are doing business and are registered with the state.
    Flds started a couple of years ago registereing as forgien corp.,because they are harder to track. Usually the forgein corp will lump several USA LLC’S together under one name. So, finding which forgein corp the company is listed under is difficult.

  562. August 2006
    On July 3, Newera Manufacturing was registered in Nevada as a foreign corporation, according to the secretary of state’s office.

  563. 🙂 deputydog you understand the Walton talk as well. Thanks. Hugs and kisses

    In the Berry Knoll story it waa listed that Kenneth C. Knudson had formed a holding company known as Berry Knoll Farms LLC. But when I looked for Berry Knoll Farms LLC I couldn’t find anything.

    I did find Kenneth C. Knudson listed with West Star. I did find him listed with the Vanderford Company Inc. (which was inc. in Florida but not active) and the registered agent is listed as
    C T Corporation. The same goes with West Star.

    So what holding company does Kenneth Knudson have? ( he is also listed with his brother Joe and mother Dorthy.)

    In the newspaper it stated that Joe and Kenneth were part of a “different” polygamous group. Which would be the CPark group.

    Does anyone here remember the day when you could open a business with some cash in a cash box, pay your taxes and workmens comp etc. all under your own name. Pay your bills and your biggest worry was to keep customer Harry happy. Long gone are the good ol days.

  564. Walton, you can still open a business with some cash in a cash box, etc etc. Sole proprietors are not required to register their businesses with any state authority unless they pay wages and withhold taxes, and/or if they sell a product on which sales tax must be collected and paid.

  565. True Rattle, but Flds like them LLC’S alot 🙂 and they buy or transfer LLC’S back and forth with Quit Deeds and sometimes with a small amount of cash.. OR they just change the Name of the Corp or combine it with foreign Corps. And the problem is Flds LLC corp, do employ people,, (their own members) and actually write them checks, and the members are required to sign those checks back to the company..

  566. Their choice, dd.

  567. Hydropack owned by Wallace Jeffs was deeded to Kenneth Knudson in 1996, then in 2003 Daniel Hammon turned over South Leeds Business Center LLC to Kenneth Knudson. also 2003 Superior Homes LLC was turned over to Kenneth Knudson as trustee.

  568. They form LLCs because they think they’re getting “Limited Liability” — the same way they think corporations will protect personal assets. The problem is that once the corporate veil is pierced, or the state rules governing the operation of LLCs and LLPs are broken or disregarded, the liability protection disappears. And it looks like they’re going to learn this the hard way.

  569. Go here and go down the line


    oops I meant this one

  571. In the event of Termination of this trust whether by trustees,or by reason of law, the assets of Trust Estate at that time shall become the PROPERTY OF THE CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDENT of the Fundementalist church of the Latter Day Saints, corporation sole.

    This was filed in 1998 with the state…
    Now, read this carefully, because what it is saying is that, if anything happens, everything owned by UEP trust, belongs SOLEY to the PRESIDENT of the Trust ie Prophet.

  572. Walton it is an Az Corportion.

    File Number: L-1481476-8
    Domestic Address 14255 N 87TH ST
    SCOTTSDALE, AZ 85260

    Statutory Agent Information Agent Name: KENNETH C KNUDSON

    Agent Mailing/Physical Address:
    14255 N 87TH ST
    SCOTTSDALE, AZ 85260

    Agent Status: APPOINTED 10/06/2008
    Agent Last Updated: 10/08/2008

    Additional Corporate Information Corporation Type: DOMESTIC L.L.C. Business Type:
    Incorporation Date: 10/06/2008 Corporate Life Period: PERPETUAL
    Domicile: ARIZONA County: MARICOPA
    Approval Date: 10/08/2008 Original Publish Date: 01/22/2009

    Member Information

    14255 N 87TH ST
    Date of Taking Office: 10/06/2008
    Last Updated: 10/08/2008

    10450 S EASTERN AVE #100
    HENDERSON,NV 89052
    Date of Taking Office: 10/06/2008
    Last Updated: 10/08/2008

  573. Thanks Walton, I did open the links, what I meant was that I wasn’t sure what I was supposed to be “seeing” from the info in the links.

  574. Walton
    Here is something you can sink your teeth in..

  575. Vanderford was owned by Knudson in Idaho and another person, and Knudson sued the partner.

  576. Just like Aspen Management was turned over to Lyle Jeffs in 2005 by Willie Jessop

  577. So in 2008 Kenneth Knudson decides to form a corporation and names it Berry Knoll Farms LLC. just in case

    Then in 2009 he may be considered according to his own words “the highest bidder” in a sale that might or might not happen?

    I have even more respect for Bruce Wissan. I’ve been to Florida, Idaho, Arizona, Colorado, and Utah trying to find connections.

    I’ve been thru two floods, two tornadoes, my husband has been in two wars and often times I would hear sirens in my sleep.

    I don’t really hear the sirens right now but my eyes are getting kinda bad. I think I might see red flags popping up all over. Is it just me?

  578. I knew about NewEra, I also knew about the Aspen thing and a few others but I don’t understand why Shurtleff and Willie want this merge with CPark.

    If I am understanding this right the people from the area will use Knudson to build or buy homes in the Berry Knoll area. He will then pay Bruce/the UEP trust monies for the land over a period of time.

    And because the CPark is supposedly not like the FLDS, people won’t mind if they practice Polygamy because Shurtleff says it is ok. He gets his votes and CPark gets their water, the FLDS get to slide over and life is almost great. This is it? This is the solution? oy


    New book “What Peace There May Be”

    Does anyone know her?


  580. Don’t know her, but I’ve read the book. Awesome memoir. Only covers her childhood and early teen years, though. Very powerfully written. The haunting book cover is perfect for the mood of the book.

  581. Walton,
    please refresh my memory – you state “I have even more respect for Wisan” with respect to Knudson and Berry Knoll. Was Wisan for or against a sale to Knudson?

  582. hellohellogoodbye,

    I respect Wisan because of the job he has had to do. Search, Search, Search and try to make sense of it all. In my opinion he has done a most excellent job. I got dizzy just looking at the few concerning Knudson.

    I think Wissan would like to see the Trust from going further in the red. As much as I see people involving documents Wissan only sees numbers. jmo

  583. When I say that Wisan only sees numbers I mean that is what his job entails. I think Wisan carries this home with him and cares deeply about the people that are involved. All of them.

    Except maybe Willie. 🙂

  584. Wissan only sees numbers

    Well, in many ways that’s not bad. I’ve done a lot of estate planning in my past and you want a trustee who has sound business sense. It doesn’t say that he’s cold or insensitive, just that he understands that whatever decision he makes it must make business sense for the trust.

  585. I agree Ron. What took many years of twisting, turning, hiding and merging Wisan has unraveled many years worth of paper trails in a short amount of time. Even Rulon would be impressed imo.

    I like Mr. Wisan

  586. Walton
    Flds is a maze when it comes to business dealings. It’s very well known these people will borrow money for Flds, with the promise the leadership will pay the note.. But many times that doesn’t happen. A younger person will borrow the money, then when leadership doesn’t pay the note, the person who borrowed the money, ends up with bad credit, and losing any borrowing power.
    Why they would put themselves in that situation, I haven’t a clue.
    They have typical traits of gypsies, they are continually on the move. Moving people from one state to another, or compound to compound. They are in Texas, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, Virginia (The reason I say virgina is because one Flds member deeded their property to a couple in Virgina)

    They have deeds to properties, then they will transfer deeds, or reconvey deeds in others names or do a quit claim deed into somoene else name.

  587. I dunno whether to call them shifty or leave the f out.

  588. LOL grannytoad 🙂

  589. OK I am still clueless is Knudson a favored or not favored buyer for Berry Knoll and if Knudson is, who is favoring them (Wisan or Willie)?

  590. hhg

    I don’t know if calling Knudson favored is really accurate. Right now he’s the only offer on the table. Lindberg ruled that the property should be put up for bids and if that fails then the Knudson deal can go forward.

    If you really think about it, someone has to have a strong interest in that property in order to try to buy it. The FLDS will likely try any route legal or not to torpedo any sale. The potential purchaser will have to deal with those problems.

  591. I’d say that is correct Ron, obviously a buyer with a solid offer and terms is favored, but in all fairness, and the court is correct IMHO, the bidding needs to be open to give anyone and everyone a fair chance.

    To me what that really means, is that the court is telling the FLDS that if this land is so damn important, is it more important to keep it, or thumb their nose at Wisan?

    Well, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to know they wouldnt buy it for back bills they need to pay anyway, Wisan or not.

    Even if it means they get to keep their fairytale rock knoll where they told everyone it’s sacred as sacred could be!

    But noooo, Answer them nothing, remember? The destructions were called upon them by Warren, this simply fulfills part of their wall falling down.

    They complain and complain some more, but they also ask that it be done to them.

    Perhaps Lyle will speak up and give us his word of wisdom, yanno shine his testimony on the subject, he is the big player right now huh!?

  592. Knudson does have a strong interest.

    I still think they should talk to the Native Americans and make a deal. Let them run it and they can lease certain property on the option of buying. There wouldn’t be a better bunch that would take care of the land and water situation better. jmo

    I hope there is a higher bidder than Knudson.

  593. Walton

    If I were a betting man, I’d say the Knudson deal will ultimately go forward. He’s the only person with enough interest and enough money to make the deal go forward. Something tells me in this economy that bids will be few, if any.

  594. I also think that Knudson will get it. I don’t think it is right though.

    What’s a working man to think? For those that follow the laws, pay the taxes care enough to want to stop the madness and the stupid circle just keeps going. It just isn’t right.

    Not only does it make my head spin but my bones ache from trying to do it all the right way. For many of us there is no other way.

    I think Polygamy is wrong, I think Shurtleff is out of whack and I must say I am somewhat dissapointed in the system if it continues.

    There are Judges and lawyers that care. There are Judges and lawyers that have tried to help. There are LE that not only care but have taken this home with them day after day. Only to get the ol’ massive paper trail and the snub treatment.

    It just isn’t right. 😦

  595. Walton

    Well, it may not be happeneing as fast or as complete as we’d like, but the abusive FLDS is goin down.

    Seperating the lots and giving it to the people MUST be done, and not to Warren as Shortfall would like.

    I also think the federal courts will be a bed of hot coals for the FLDS, the middle of the beginning of the end.

  596. I think Polygamy is wrong, I think Shurtleff is out of whack and I must say I am somewhat dissapointed in the system if it continues.

    It doesn’t matter what you think, as long as people are willing to engage in polygamy…it won’t go away. Any concerted effort by LE to stop it is doomed to failure as the constitutional quaqmire it would create would be insurmountable. Shirtleff knows that.

    Stamp, if the FLDS “goes down” it won’t be because of outside forces. If anything the current repression is going to bind them even tighter to their religious beliefs.

    You guys need to accept the fact that you can’t change other people’s moral codes by force and find some other cause that is doable. Join a “save the Whales” campaign or something

  597. Shurtleff is out of whack in that he is not prosecuting all the other crapola that is connected with the FLDS and the UEP. He could ignore polygamy till the cows come home and he’d still have lots to do. The truth is for whatever reason, he’s looking the other way while a crime family prospers.

  598. duane

    The flds are being brought down by many forces, some in concert some not.

    For instance, Warren is really the big reason th FLDS is in the mess it is today. He set it up to fail.

    This forced the states hand, and all of his continued crimes force LE to crack down.

    BTW there have been additional IRS tax liens discovered that take the myriad FLDS IRS tax liability to over 6 million.

    Is it the IRS fault, or the FLDS fault?

    When the Dirty Dozen go to prison for Dozens of years, what is that going to do for the good old FLDS lifestyle?

    Something to think about when making long term plans. What are they all gonna do when the big plyg daddies dissapear?

  599. See Duh-duane you still will never have the law on your side. Your the side that needs to do something or the UEPTrust is never going to come back, your the side that needs a Constitutional Amendment or your never going to be legitimate, your the side that needs at least one State in the Union to legalize polygamy but you’ve been waiting 175 years and it hasn’t happen so far and your the side looking for some Landmark court ruling but the Supreme Court told Holm vs. Utah thanks no thanks we’re standing by Reynolds vs. United States. We don’t have anything to give up Duh-duane because the right of Law & Order is on our side, your the one backing the outlaws.

    Not one State in any of the Fifty States that makes up our Nation has ever recognized, legalized or made a Court ruling recognizing polygamy. It is as Abraham Lincoln described it one of the ‘Twin Barbarisms’, along with Slavery.

  600. BTW there have been additional IRS tax liens discovered that take the myriad FLDS IRS tax liability to over 6 million.

    Is it the IRS fault, or the FLDS fault?
    Probably neither unless the FLDS received loans as a business entity. You are probably talking about individual people who consider themselves FLDS. I consider myself Southern Babtist. Anyhow, before I get completely sidetract it appears that like a lot of small business owners in this economy quite a few overextended themselves financially and have a debt they must pay back. $6 million by the way is peanuts when you consider that not so long ago Willie Nelson had a $16 million dollar tax lien.
    Something to think about when making long term plans. What are they all gonna do when the big plyg daddies dissapear?
    Heh! If they was like the general population then without that source of income coming in they would probably start drawing welfare. Since they are not then they will get through it by working together.

  601. Not one State in any of the Fifty States that makes up our Nation has ever recognized, legalized or made a Court ruling recognizing polygamy.
    Heh! And yet within our lifetime we see more and more states legalizing gay marriages.

  602. So dizzy deci dunane thinks LE shouild leave polygamy alone because the polygs will still keep doing it anyway. You could say the same thing about bank robbers, muggers, etc. So, old skinwalker is saying we should not enforce any laws and just have anarchy. What a doofus. Of course the flds men who marry children are his heros so he wants them to get off scot free.

  603. Alinusara, sorry but your wrong. Flds individuals and corporations they owned with Judgement in huge proporations against them. They also have well over 12 million in liens against individuals, companies, people they screwed in business, the homes they got loans on, and its been going on since 1984 up to this year.
    Yes I do expect others to pay their personal income taxes and I expect employers to pay their employee payroll taxes, which Flds don’t do and IRS has caught up with them

  604. I just love it when people spout off about crap they know nothing about, won’t take the time to research documented evidence. Duane you and alinusara make yourselves seem stupid!!!

  605. 3 states out of 50 certainly isn’t a huge percentage alinusara.

  606. Funny yet was the YFZ Ranch applying for tax exemption for the Temple they now refuse to use and the Bishop’s residence but he has to prove he earns 51% of his income from being a Bishop, Oooppssie. They forgot to file for tax exempt status as a church group and now the Schleicher County Assessor is all over them for businesses operating without fees, permits and have never paid any taxes on some of their business, sound familiar?

  607. I don’t put the “crime” of having multiple live-in women and calling them “wives” along the same lines as bank robbers and crack dealers. If they are going to crack down on polygamy, which I doubt, they will have to crack down on swingers, polyamorists, and other alt lifestylers who have conjugal relations with more than on person at the same time.

  608. DNFTT (do not feed the troll)

  609. “I don’t put the “crime” of having multiple live-in women and calling them “wives” along the same lines as bank robbers and crack dealers.”

    That sounds to me like a personal problem.

    “If they are going to crack down on polygamy, which I doubt, they will have to crack down on swingers, polyamorists, and other alt lifestylers who have conjugal relations with more than on person at the same time.”

    No, they wouldn’t, actually.

  610. TexasConnie: I agree with your DNFTT.

  611. Deputy Dog wrote: “Duane you and alinusara make yourselves seem stupid!!!”

    Yes, they do it so effortlessly that it appears they have a natural talent for being stupid. ROFL

  612. DNFTT is just trying to be the spokesperson for BileM and his broken doll minions Deb Lee, Celia and 40Concerned & alinusara. Let the mutated spout off and remain in the dark with the other mushrooms feeding on the FLDS fertilizer. Don’t be a Madvecky comment board topic of they said, they think or they believe edited by a Troll.

    Now run along lil’ gnome and go back to BillM and stay with his broken doll collection.

  613. Until they indict Hugh Hefner, you’re all running a conspiracy against the mormons.

  614. For those who are interested, Pharisee now thinks that Blues is another poster named Jam Inn and is threatening to “out” him again.

  615. Ron, Pharisee’s attempts to “out” Rozita as a hoax caller or expose` on the LE targeting FLDS Attorney(s) for Public Drunk, ala Wally Bugden & Mindy Montford, makes his latest attempt to some how link Superior Court Law clerk Mark D. Meyers to Texas Blues Man just another whacked/paranoid theory(he hates when you use the word ‘conspiracy’). So what now, we’re supposed to sit up and pay attention to another unfounded conspiracy hatched from the ‘Tin Foil Mad-Hatter’?

    He’s pulled down the article and taken it back to Alcoa to add some more foil.

  616. Hugh Hefner has sex with 12 year olds? He does money laundering? He defrauds trust funds? He carries minors across state and federal lines for immorality? He defrauds the IRS? His ladies get money from welfare and Medicare by not reporting him as their employer?

  617. He went off yesterday about his ratings, again. He and Medvecky have handed everyone else THEIR HATS. (He likes caps.) Delusions of grandeur, calling me a liar because I won’t admit his internet superiority on the basis of his own claims. Bizarre.

  618. Hugh Hefner has never had girls underage living in his household, nor has he ever claimed to be married to the women who live in his household… He recently however, went back to his wife, whom he had never divorced. No comparison to FLDS making secret agreements as to which dirty old man gets which 12yr old

  619. And I think some folks miss the distinction that having a holy man assign wives is a bit of a problem. Many states have special add on penalties for those who abuse positions of power or influence in order to have sex with minors.

  620. Pharisee is totally ignorant of who anyone is, because it’s easy to trace someone’s ip address if you own a blog site. I know for fact Texas blues man is from Texas, and Jam Inn is Jamaican who lives on the other side of the United States.

  621. Yeah, I tried to tell him that, but he went off on his ratings and yelling in caps. I am obviously either lying or stupid, cause I don’t agree with him and those are the only options.

  622. Like DeputyDog, I try to keep up on who’s who in the Washington County, Utah jail. I came across this info today and also found a 2003 news story about this troubled escapee

    Birth Date: 05/14/80
    Address : 230 W EDSON AVE, Colorado City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    15:50:10 09/08/09 Schimbeck, Gage SGPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    76-6-404 THEFT- UNDER $300 BM 5DIS 555.00 555.00
    76-6-202 BURGLARY- DWELLING 2F 5DIS 10000.00 10000.00

    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    14:10:00 09/07/09 Schimbeck, Gage SGPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    76-6-206(2).. DV-CRIM TRESPASS-DWEL AM 5DIS 1890.00 1890.00

    When I read her booking information the other day, her address was something like “Tucker St #10, Mohave, AZ. Now it’s been changed to the Colorado City address. I wonder who bailed her out. Hope she didn’t return to the cult just so she could get out of jail.

    Or maybe, since her charges involve DV and unlawful entry/trespass of a dwelling she was trying to get her things to leave.

  623. I wonder if Carla Holm is Edson Holm’s daughter. Since he passed away a few weeks ago, that would explain Carla’s return to the area.

    I couldn’t find an address for Edson Holm but I’ll be driving through there today so I’m going to drive by the address to see if it looks like a large family home.

  624. This was on the spectrum today nearthcreek…

    Carla Renee Holm, 29, Taylor Court, No. 1, Mohave County, Ariz., was arrested Monday on charges of domestic violence-criminal trespass and outstanding warrant. Holm was booked into Purgatory Correctional Facility on $2,060 bail.

  625. I hope she’s not planning to go back into the fold.

    Do you know if she’s Edson’s daughter? Anyone know how the three cousins mentioned in the news story are doing now?

    My heart goes out to all.

  626. Since the story was in 2003 nearthecreek, I wouldn’t have any idea how they are doing, I hope well also.

  627. There’s likely an interesting story behind the Carla Holm arrest. I wonder if she’s lashing out from prior abuse she suffered.

  628. You know Ruth Cooke was arrested last year,,for trying to see her children… They charged her with Criminal damage.

  629. I still don’t understand why she cannot get suprervised visits with her children.

  630. wondering where Leroy Steed Jeffs is??

    Right here:

    Jeffs, Leroy S
    FLORENCE, AZ 85232

  631. The more these people are viciously repressed, the stronger their religious convictions will be.

    This is taken from a paper written by a Linda Smith, the pdf is on “intro of a plural wife’s” blog and referring to the 1953 raid:

    “The Raid itself
    confirmed for the FLDS that they were a chosen people, devoted to their religious convictions,
    and helped establish and maintain their religious identities. Vera Black, defendant in the Utah
    juvenile court test case, said as much herself:

    This is the most faith promoting experience I had, . . . It is never to be forgotten. Little
    do we realize what an extra blessed people we are.”

  632. duane

    “The more these people are viciously repressed, the stronger their religious convictions will be.”

    So, you sayin that Warren and the Dirty Dozen are going to have stronger child molesting tendencies after 20 years in prison?

    And tell the Parole board that when their number is up for review?

    We better save those claims, its always good to keep parole boards up to speed on the threats of child molesters!

    And if they think throwing the Dirty Doodes in prison is going to strengthen them, what is losing the UEP going to do to them?

    Lyle will have all the answers, I’m sure!

  633. The more these people are viciously repressed, the stronger their religious convictions will be.

    Well, I don’t exactly see vicious repression (a bit of hyperbole perhaps?) but it’s rather irrelevant since they’re clearly coming apart from within.

  634. duane, no one DID anything to flds, Flds did everything that’s happened to them since they started the fundementalists latter day saints themselves. They have NO ONE to blame but themselves.
    Answer them nothing didn’t work in 1953 and it won’t work in 2009.

  635. Oh, but duane may be onto something. Whacko Warren may indeed become more extreme in prison.

    Extremely Nuts, but yes more extreme!

  636. Actually Ron they aren’t coming apart from within.
    Stamp, even if they all go to prison there are thousands of others. Stereotyping Mormon polygamy as “child molestation” will not do the trick either.

  637. “Answer them nothing didn’t work in 1953 and it won’t work in 2009.”

    Mass raids didn’t work to stop Fundie mormonism in ’53 and it won’t work in 2009

  638. The raid in Texas duane was because a caller to an abuse hotline center reported being abused. You may not LIKE that, but at least LE in Texas do soemthing about an abuse complaint, unlike Arizona and Utah has done for generations.

  639. duane

    There are plenty of mormon fundy child molesters, as they continue to convict and imprison them it stands to reason the number of offenders will drop substantially.

    Look at Warren, he quit his bad habits!

  640. dizzy deci, The flds who are now, or will be in prison won’t be marrying 12 years old while incarcerated so it will stop those particular people. If others are dumb enough to carry on with child brides, etc they can also go to prison. Most of the Texas indictees were not indicted for bigamy or polygamy. It was for other explicit crimes. Warren is in prisdon not for polygamy but for oither explicit crimes. You howl about polygamy, but that is not the issue. That is just a smokescreen you bring up. Smokescreens and strawmen, normal tactics for the old duane dog.

  641. Yeah Warren went from 100 wives down to zero faster than you can say “Jack Sprat”.

    And the main reason? He was picking fruit before it was ripe!

  642. Can anyone explain to me why Becky Musser should be expected to answer questions about the case in Texas for the defending lawyers of the case in Arizona? Is the prosecution going to use evidence from Texas? Why would that be relevant?

  643. I keep wondering about that myself

  644. Well, I’ve been reading the Arizon vs jeffs webpage and my best guess is that prosecution is going to try to use some evidence from the Texas raid to prove that Jeffs did the deed. You know, like dictations in which he talks about sending in the girls to help him with his heavenly sessions or traveling around the US with a squad of teenagers. That sort of thing. So Picaretta is trying to prove the hoax call theory and get the evidence thrown out, at least in Arizona. So he’s trying to look for any detail at all that could be construed or misconstrued as impropriety. I can’t blame Musser for not wanting to participate in a fishing expedition for the other side.

  645. Eldorado Success reports today that Schleicher County Appraisal District has denied religious exemption for the temple and annex at YFZ Ranch. Appraised value = $10.3 million; 2008 taxes $216,622. Decision was communicated to James Jerry Jessop, trustee of Texan Heritage Trust, registered property owner.

  646. Again.

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