Open Discussion #11

Advertisements

~ by FLDS TEXAS on August 13, 2009.

668 Responses to “Open Discussion #11”

  1. Does anyone know when the full Bigamy and Sexual Assault Indictments will be posted? The current Court calendar to try all the cases in 51st District court exceeds one full year.

  2. They are out there, I’ll see if I can find them…

  3. TxBluesman

    Thanks for that great write up on YFZ, the dictations, and Brookes complete misunderstanding on how this may well bring the FLDS house of cards tumbling down!

    http://coramnonjudice.blogspot.com/

  4. Warren was seen banging his head against his cell wall last year. I have always wondered about the zip files and electronic data that was seized in the Red Escalade. You know Warren claimed he would never be found or arrested because he was invisible to his enemies and the Almighty was watching over him. Well somebody screwed up, maybe that patrolman had just converted to his faith or something or maybe somebody let authorities know when, where and how to catch up to Warren, Naomi & Isaac Jeffs. You know like that ole Monopoly card don’t Pass Go or collect $200 Dollars, maybe set it so the Red Escalade rolled ‘snake eyes’. I haven’t heard if Bruce Wisan has gotten access to the Escalade data but I am sure it holds the “Keys to the Kingdom”.

  5. Didnt Warren know?

    New red Escalades are EVIL!

    BTW, as a footnote, “Escalade co” in hildale has also got a big ass IRS lien, y’all missed it, but hey!

    A good time to tell!

  6. I haven’t heard if Bruce Wisan has gotten access to the Escalade data but I am sure it holds the “Keys to the Kingdom”. cajIM said this on August 13, 2009 at 5:37 PM

    :O

  7. I am thinking that some of those keys might belong to some glass houses. lol

  8. I guess I’m an “evil” gentile. It is interesting to note when FLDS mothers were being held as minors and presented their driver’s licenses and birth certificates as proof of their age, CPS and Judge Walther refused to accept them claiming they could be forgeries, so how do we know that these cheesy “marriage” certs are authentic since…you know, according to Walther, forgery is so prevalent in this day and age. I’m not an attorney but wonder if the defense will mention this during the pre-trial hearings.

    Also these docs don’t prove sex by any means.

    duane said this on August 11, 2009 at 4:41 PM
    ******************
    Sorry, I can’t resist….. Duane,, go look at ALL the traffic tickekts given in Colorado City and Hildale from 2004-2009 Most are for “NON-VALID” driver’s license, or “NO Driver’s License” or “Fake Driver’s License”. Not just by men but WOMEN!

  9. The first pre trial hearing is in Schliecher County October 2 Raymond Leroy Jessop.

  10. Where are those motorcycle keys?

  11. Warren will gladly pay TEN MIIILLLLIIIOOON DOLLLARS for the keys to his cell.

    OOPS he already spent the money.

    WHAT!? NO KEYS!?!?

    8^O

  12. Judge: Schleicher County for FLDS trials
    By Matt Phinney (Contact)
    Originally published 08:52 p.m., August 10, 2009
    Updated 08:56 p.m., August 10, 2009

    Jury selection and the trials for members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints on charges related to sexual abuse of children, bigamy and others will all be held in Schleicher County if possible.

    “That’s the plan,” said 51st District Judge Barbara Walther on Monday. “If we get there and it’s not working, we can change if we have to.”

    A pretrial hearing was held Monday in San Angelo for Raymond Merril Jessop in preparation for an Oct. 26 trial. He is charged with sexual abuse of a child.

    During a status hearing in July, Walther had asked attorneys to look at ways to get a jury pool from Schleicher County while having the trials in San Angelo. On Monday, both Eric Nichols, deputy attorney general for criminal justice, and Mark Stevens, defense attorney, said they would be open to the idea.

    However, Walther said she talked to Schleicher County officials who said the cases could be heard in the Memorial Building near the Schleicher County Courthouse.

    Walther then asked how many people should be called for a jury pool.

    “Whatever number we think of, double it,” Stevens said. “The maximum number possible would be the only answer possible, judge.”

    Walther said she would call two jury panels and have a backup plan in place in case the court can’t get a full jury from Schleicher County. The small population there makes it possible that a full jury might not be available. She did not say what the backup plan would be.

    She also told attorneys to block off two weeks, maybe more, for each of the trials.

    Walther has yet to rule on the defendants’ motions to suppress evidence taken from the Yearning For Zion Ranch near Eldorado. A lengthy session on that matter — whether a hearing on whether to suppress evidence is justified — was held in May.

    An April 3, 2008, raid on the ranch led to the removal of more than 400 children from the ranch and the seizure of documents and other material. Attorneys for the accused sect members say evidence from the ranch should not be used against their clients.

    After Monday’s hearing, Stevens said he could not answer questions.

    Randy Wilson, who represents Allan Eugene Keate, Michael Emack and Leroy Johnson Steed, said he thinks it may be difficult to get two jury panels from Schleicher County. Where the trial is held won’t affect his planning, he said.

    “We just get ready,” he said.

    Nichols said the same thing after Monday’s pretrial.

    “The state is preparing for trial,” he said. “The state’s position is to prepare to try this case wherever the court decides to try it.”

    Trial schedule

    Following is the schedule for trials:

    * Raymond Merril Jessop, Oct. 26, sexual abuse of a child.

    * Allan Eugene Keate, Dec. 7, sexual abuse of a child.

    * Michael Emack, Jan. 25, 2010, sexual abuse of a child.

    * Merrill Leroy Jessop, March 8, 2010, sexual abuse of a child and bigamy.

    * Lehi Barlow Jeffs, April 26, 2010, sexual abuse of a child and bigamy.

    * Abram Harker Jeffs, June 7, 2010, sexual abuse of a child and bigamy.

    * Keith William Dutson, July 26, 2010, sexual abuse of a child.

    * Wendell Loy Nielson, Sept. 7, 2010, three counts of bigamy.

    * Frederick Merril Jessop, Oct. 11, 2010, conducting an unlawful marriage ceremony involving a minor.

    * Leroy Johnson Steed, Dec. 6, 2010, first-degree felony sexual assault of a child, second-degree felony bigamy, third-degree felony bigamy and third-degree felony tampering with physical evidence

  13. Does that help? 🙂

  14. “Duane,, go look at ALL the traffic tickekts given in Colorado City and Hildale from 2004-2009 Most are for “NON-VALID” driver’s license, or “NO Driver’s License” or “Fake Driver’s License”. Not just by men but WOMEN”

    Deputeydawg, thanks for the info. Yes, I know for years that it was common for short creekers to drive tractors, dirt bikes, atv’s and other non-street legal vehicles up and down the streets…those dastardly criminals.
    Ok, since the FLDS are are known to fake documents, we can’t be so sure of the authenticity of the documents found at the Ranch.

  15. duane you idioit!! Im talking about Adults!! Adult Men and Women transporting children getting tickets for No vaild driver’s license, Non ledgeable driver’s licenses, or NO licenses at all.

  16. Oh I believe the documents found in the safe’s were legal, but I highly doubt the one’s people showed CPS were real. They break every law on the books, including refusing to restrain their children with safety belts in vehicles, which they got extremely lots of tickets for (the women). But, who gives shit right? duane?

  17. I mean hell, you lose a kid or two because you don’t give a shit about its safety in a car, its okay, they will just produce another!

  18. Yes deputydawg, I’m sure many or most were adults. I wonder what percentage are without licenses. This is the problem with the group attitude. I’m sure some FLDS folks drove without licenses, joined that scam indian tribe, etc. That doesn’t make their neighbor any more or less guilty.

  19. [ok DD, we really can’t have comments by posters telling other posters to get lost …. – Admin]

  20. deputydawg, FLDS folks aren’t the only ones who are lax about following safety rules. If this is a problem in short creek, perhaps the Safety net committee should add this to their agenda and make efforts to educated the short creekers on the importance of using seat belts, being licensed, and basic safety procedures.

  21. ok bye!

  22. Duane take your senorita and go to a swingers club,,, PLEASE!!!! your wasting your breath here!

  23. Hey guys …. I made a thread for y’all who want to continue talking about religion.

    Have a blast:

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2009/08/13/off-topic-religious-discussion-1/

  24. I can’t imagine how the Schleicher County Court is going to get anything else done, or even get this done. An awful burden for a small community.

  25. RE: the upcoming trials in Schleicher Co. I presume jurors are drawn from voter reg, veh reg and the like? Wouldn’t if be a HOOT if some flds were called as jurors. What a Voir Dire that would be! Almost worth the price of a plane ride to town.

  26. DD

    Thats awesome. You can sniff out anything!

  27. It would be a hoot if flds were called. I don’t know if many registered to vote, but if there are a substantial number, the clerks in charge of producing the summons may cull from the rolls all the jeffs, steeds, barlows, etc. However if it is done by computer and large number of prairie skirts show up, ohhh the shenanigans that will no doubt take place…..

  28. Duane,
    It’s pretty much a given that the FLDS won’t be called for jury duty in this affair.

    a) They aren’t registered to vote at this time from what I understand.
    b) They don’t have driver’s licenses for that area from what I understand.
    c) They aren’t likely to be eligible because they are undoubtedly related, either by blood or marriage, to the defendants.

  29. … This is the problem with the group attitude. I’m sure some FLDS folks drove without licenses, joined that scam indian tribe, etc. That doesn’t make their neighbor any more or less guilty.

    =====================
    How many times do you try to place other “apostate” actions on me? Every time I call you on it, you deny it and backpedal, and then when I am not watching this blog, comments sneak in lumping all us apostates together. If FLDS are individuals, so are us ex-FLDS.

  30. Jim, I’ve got the rest of the indictments. I’m working on getting them posted.

  31. Is the Warren S. Jeffs admonition of ‘Answer Them Nothing’ the policy of just the few that have been indicted or, as I understand it a broader warning to all FLDS congregants and it implies consequences for any of those whom dare to violate this prophetic order. Therefore, if your a card carrying Warrenite in good standing do you ignore or obey the Prophet? Seems rather obvious to me, especially considering the overwhelming practice of silence.

  32. Answer them Nothing was not just Warren’s personal practice, it was his mandate for the community. He also instructed Willie Jessop to gather a few members and hire lawyers and make demands on the UEP property … not because he cared about the short creek property, but so that he could create a diversion and delay while he got the Texas property paid for and into another trust and away from the Creekers and the creditors.

  33. By now, everyone knows that duane has lost all credibility and has marinalized himself to the point of being totally irrelevant. I am surprised that he has the gall to show his face. That creature is simply shameless, Must be getting paid quite a bit to post his garbage.

  34. So were back to the claim that not all FLDS members are guilty of having done anything wrong. Many of them are just innocent ‘sheeple’ in a devout flock that happens to support a known felon whom is currently in Mojave County jail awaiting trial for additional felony charges. Additionally he’s charged with Federal flight from Utah and has been indicted in Texas by the San Angelo Grand Jury.
    He sure appears to be a criminal mastermind orchestrating a National crime wave into other Rocky Mountain States? How long before the Federal authorities show they are aware of his national and international crimes?

  35. Taken from Warren S. Jeffs dictations on May 31, 2007, as follows :

    ” I, the Lord have looked upon my people who dwell in the Short Creek Stake of Zion, and behold, my servant, [Warren S. Jeffs] there are many who profess to know my name who do not know me, but have blasphemed against me in the midst of mine house. For behold, the apostate spirit is among many who dwell there, who have partaken of the spirit of the world and are overcome of darkness, because their deeds are EVIL and their hearts are set upon the things of this wicked generation, in the which generation doeth good save those who obey”.

    Warren S. Jeffs remains on suicide watch in his cell and has more recently been reported to be continuing a hunger strike that threatens his physical health and well being, he’s obviously fallen into a severe mental state of depression and needs assistance to cope and function. May the Almighty have mercy on his soul and may he be guided to a speedy recovery.

  36. Y’all may have seen this article before, but it was new to me. It describes Lee Steed’s purchase of $2M worth of properties for FLDS in Colorado. Large sums of cash used to buy, I believe, it was 5 parcels of land. http://is.gd/2gCcG (link is to the Southern Poverty Law Center web site)

    Excerpt: “Three of Steeds’ properties are located within a few miles of Westcliffe. In November 2006, Steed purchased a 6,000-square foot, nine-bedroom, six-bath, log home on 35 acres (pictured below) that was in foreclosure for $350,000 cash, according to Custer County records. Neighbors say a large group of men and women soon moved into the two-story structure and began working around the clock.

    “Kathleen Kerr, who owns a house next door, said activity on the Steed property has ruined the community’s rural flavor with bright lights on all night, constant construction, and noise generated by ATVs patrolling the property as well as occasional gunfire. “It’s just not quiet and peaceful there anymore,” Kerr said, adding that she has put her 35-acre, three-bedroom cabin retreat up for sale.”

    Real churches just don’t operate this way. Their interconnected businesses and land holdings — not to mention their imprisoned so-called prophet — are more similar to a crime syndicate than a religious organization.

  37. Short Creek Judgment
    Warren S. Jeffs dictations of Sunday, July 11, 2004 :

    ” You little know what has been happening. By ordinance and circle prayer this whole nation has been delivered over to the judgments of God, and the Lord sent me to Short Creek on June 14 and on the 15th [2004] of June, by ordinance and prayer, in authority of the Priesthood, Short Creek was delivered over to the judgments of God– all the ungodly and half hearted who will not repent. Now the Lord having sent me to do that work you will see the falling away take place and the persecutions come upon those who can be faithful to humble them, until the whirlwind judgments strike that place and leave neither root nor branch. You now have nowhere else to go. Only on the lands of refuge will there be a dedicated condition unto the Lord. And I reveal that much to you, and it is the Lord doing it”.

    So the UEPTrust negotiations are to serve what ultimate purpose for the FLDS Church and why the charade that this revelation from the Almighty is being some how ignored, 5 years hence? Is the Prophet Warren S. Jeffs still truly in charge of the FLDS Church his reported status and mental state would suggest that someone, else, has taken the reigns of control of this covert sect and is behind the scenes running the legal defense, making the economic arrangements and in charge of the escalating circumstances with legal authorities.

  38. The thing about the licenses. I can picture a small rural town, not fundamentalist, where people drive with out licenses. I can also picture the state police deciding that it’s a problem and doing Saturday afternoon license checks. In my mythical small town, the populace would grumble, but after they paid some fines for not having a proper license and/or registration, they would pay the fee and get a license. Cause, for one, it’s common sense and for another, they actually have valid birth certificates and other proof of ID.

    And sure enough, I’ve been stopped in such license checks in rural Virginia; I’ve seen many of them throughout the decades. There used to be one on a regular basis when I drove down 460 to Wakefield for my apprenticeship school back in the late 70’s.

    But in the Creek? According to Carolyn and some others, the lack of legal vehicles and ID’s is partly deliberate. If the little woman does not have a legal vehicle, she can’t drive it the 100 miles to a different county to get help. She can run to the mercantile and do chores, but she can’t get far without being stopped.

    That license check is also a clear sign of religious persecution and a sign that the Nazi government is trying to suppress all the righteous people with their stupid rules about legal drivers. We would never hear the end of it. THAT’s the problem. If Utah just did THAT it would cheer me up considerably.

  39. TexasConnie,

    Want to bet on whether or not there were building permits or contractors licensed in that state doing the work? That the gunshots were for in season, deer hunting by licensed hunters with registered guns?

    Yeah, me either.

  40. “If FLDS are individuals, so are us ex-FLDS.”

    Yes that is true, many of the apostates and nonflds are shills whose purpose is to allow the state to claim “discrimination”.
    While I do think the state and antiflds are using you as a tool, I don’t recall making accusations against you personally when mentioning alleged provocations of nonflds against flds. The best I can tell you don’t cause trouble in short creek, even that anecdote about your wife being refused service by an flds business, that was not a wise move by the proprietor.
    The provocations of nonflds that I heard about are not criminal acts nor should they be, but it gives insight into the true motives of the anti-flds. Many nonflds are serving as agent provocateurs but not all and if one antiflds activist murders an flds member, that doesn’t make all antiflds activists murderers.

  41. I think that it would be really, really interesting to find out all of Parkers business interest both in terms of his law work and in terms of his personal investments.

  42. Duane,
    The problem is….according to FLDS tenets apostates in the community are “by definition” provocative.

  43. “Yes that is true, many of the apostates and nonflds are shills whose purpose is to allow the state to claim “discrimination”.”

    Really? How “many” are “many”? Out of the thousands of people who have left the FLDS just what percentage remain behind to be a “shill” for the state to claim discrimination? I’d like some facts and resources to back up that vague and baseless accustation, senior dishonest.

    “The provocations of nonflds that I heard about are not criminal acts nor should they be, but it gives insight into the true motives of the anti-flds.”

    And yet the “provocative” actions of the FLDS have been criminal acts on numerous occasions. I guess it’s okay to be an “agent provcoateur” for the FLDS because they are above the law.

    Actually, Duane, as always you claim to know motivations and decisions absent any evidence. How do you manage to even type coherent sentences with your brain as shut down as it is? I’m seriously tempted to believe you are an example of the abysmal failure of the public school system.

  44. In my opinion, Cement is a genius. He found that Peter Cook-Dudley Moore clip, and that qualifies him for sainthood.

  45. Let’s talk about Shane Stubbs lease of farm land from the UEPTrust and his planted crop of winter wheat that was disked back into dirt, over $10,000Dollars of damage, by two FLDS members Richard C. Jessop and Thomas L. Jessop.
    Who initiated that unlawful act and caused all the crop damage?

  46. Jim, according to the Berry Knoll transcript they also vandalized the irrigation pivots so most of the remaining crop was lost. And when he went to harvest what was left, the local cops wouldn’t let him on the land, saying he needed a court order. To which the judge answered that of course he didn’t, because Wisan’s leases are the valid ones.

    But the odd thing noted by Isaac Wyler is that when he had the lease on Berry Knoll, he was subject to constant vandalism and Willie Jessop and Dan Johnson running their livestock over his operation. But when he gave up the lease and the trespassers took up squatting on the land, all the vandalism mysteriously ended.

  47. And somehow I don’t think it was EX-FLDS who drove down a fence and then broke a stallion’s back. Good ol’ peacefull, hardworking FLDS! It’s a shame those agent provacteurs keep provoking them into breaking the law while being clever enough to avoid breaking the law themselves.

  48. A shill is calling someone else a shill? Yawn.

  49. “The First Presidency thrilled with joy, in the
    Lord.

    We have been praying fervently the Lord
    would send forth some men who had money to
    help us, And tbis fulfiIls the commandment of the
    Lord that Zion is built up through the
    consecrations of the people, for these lands were
    all consecrated to the LJEP afid now the moneys
    resulting from selling them are the result of those
    consecrations.”

    So sayeth Jeffs when he gets 4.5 million to spend as he wishes, and he is joyful about the fact he managed to turn UEP consecrated lands into his own personal piggy bank.

    Good work, Warren!

    PS…….. Where did the money go?

    As didctated MAy 15 2004

    https://texasflds.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/jessop-211.pdf

  50. There are 1,200 people in Schliecher County, (minus) Flds.
    Of that 1,200 probably 300 children, so there is plenty of good folks to call for jury duty, you just need 12 for each jury.

  51. In my opinion, Cement is a genius. He found that Peter Cook-Dudley Moore clip, and that qualifies him for sainthood.

    ==============================
    Huge coincidence. I am an amateur pianist who was watching you-tube clips of people like Rubinstein, and ran across a Beethoven parody by Moore (search it out, it is hilarious), so I decided to see what else Moore did, and ran into this clip. When I saw Ron’s comment I couldn’t resist.

  52. That’s what they’re having, 12 jurors (+ alternates?) ?

  53. I think a lot of the people living at YFZ would never get called for jury duty because they are not listed as permanent residents.

  54. Betty

    Being FLDS is pretty much an automatic challenge for cause. You need to believe that the marriage was unlawful and they’d fail that test.

    “Jury of your peers” does not mean that you’re entitled to jurors in every ethno-religious subclass you’re in.

  55. We already know FLDS lie and deny knowing or being related to one another should it come to jury summons or anything else including one’s breakfast menu.

  56. In Brookes new blah, she said Centinnel Park and Willie Jessop had a meeting in Willie’s office in Hildale… So is Willie the new prophet?? He seems to be making all the decisions for flds.

  57. GrannyToad

    While they do lie, I’d think given the very short list of last names out at YFZ as well as other unique traits that it would be hard to pull a fast one.

  58. He was probably just leasing them land that belongs to the UEP. No biggie.

  59. Ron, they haven’t even begun to choose even one juror and I’ll predict that the FLDS members will howl over the “Jury of their peersECUTORS” before the prosecution has even begun. My 7:44am posting quotes Warren Jeffs revelation that,” ….the persecutions come upon those who can be faithful”. in order to feed the deeds that are EVIL you have to keep the perspective that this isn’t a prosecution but an unwarranted persecution of the righteous ones.

  60. For sure they will complain regardless who serves on the jury. 48% of Schliecher County is Hispanic.

  61. “according to FLDS tenets apostates in the community are “by definition” provocative.”

    You are almost correct, if you change “community” to “UEP property” then you got it right.

    However, maybe I should say “especially” provocative. It is really simple, the UEP was setup by fundy mormons for fundy mormons, if one leaves or is kicked out for breaking the rules of their faith then they should have to leave the property and possibly be compensated for any investments they personally made to improve said property. If flds’ers want to live communally even though the leadership can kick them out, well that is their choice and can’t see what right we have to force them against their will to take private ownership of their land “for their own good”. Yeah right! Enough posts have been made by enough antiflds like Buster, Cajim, Blues, and my buddy Boots to make it clear that the objective is to destroy their religion and culture.

  62. “Want to bet on whether or not there were building permits or contractors licensed in that state doing the work? That the gunshots were for in season, deer hunting by licensed hunters with registered guns? Yeah, me either.”

    LOL, Betty.

    Re: jury pool. Ron would know numbers on this better than me, but it takes a fairly large pool of jurors to seat a panel of 12 plus alternates. Some potential jurors will not be able to serve, the elderly are given an exemption if they want to use it, and during voir dire both prosecution and defense can challenge a certain number of potential jurors for cause.

    Then multiply that by 12 trials, and it means a whole lot of Schleicher County voters are going to be called for the FLDS cases.

  63. “they should have to leave the property and possibly be compensated for any investments they personally made to improve said property”

    Has this ever happened? Does anyone have even one anecdote of an individual leaving the FLDS and being compensated? Forget leaving with your investments – you’re lucky if you can get out with all your children.

    By the way, are there any updates on Merril Jessop paying child support? From the sounds of it, he will have to pay eventually but he’s trying to delay and stall things as long as possible so he can make his children and the mother of his children suffer as long as possible.

  64. Reynolds vs. United States legal precedent that you can not use an article of faith in ones own religion to violate a existing legal statute. Not my rules and not the FLDS rules but it is the legal precedent that stops fanatical churchs and it’s rulers and members from denying an apostates right to ‘due process’. Slavery has been ruled illegal in the United states so the Prophet can think he owns someone but he better not act like he does because it violates the law. So, simple even a dumb bunny can understand it.

  65. 21 ex-FLDS members sued the UEP in the 1980’s after Rulon Jeffs declared everyone “Tenants at will” and started kicking people off of UEP property. This lawsuit went on for YEARS. After it was settled, the court said that the apostates had to be compensated for what they had put into building and/or improving their homes.

    The court ruled that the claimants could remain on the land for their lifetimes or the UEP could compensate the claimants for the benefit it received if the UEP chose to remove the claimants.

    Ben Bistline did not remain in the community and the UEP gave him a small trailer in exchange for his UEP home, where he now lives out in Cane Beds. After he left the community, the FLDS burned down his old UEP house.

    So, there is one anecdote of someone who left the FLDS and was compensated by the UEP.

  66. A slave can never leave. Cement left the FLDS with his wife who was forced to marry him by Warren, since FLDS marriages are by default “forced”. Sure his wife was urged to stay in, but she refused, they didn’t try to kidnap her, tie her up, or lock her in a room. She is now an apostate with her husband. If an antebellum slave attempted to escape, he/she had to contend with slave patrols, lawmen, and bounty hunters and even if they made it North they were often eventually captured and brought back south
    Big difference between Mormon polygamy and slavery.

    According to brooke, Willie met with some CP’ers, seems they may work together in the future on issues of mutual concern.
    Would be nice to see the FLDS, CP, and AUB form a PAC and publish a voter’s guide. They have enough potential votes to be a major influence in state and local politics.

  67. “So, there is one anecdote of someone who left the FLDS and was compensated by the UEP.”

    Duane, are you pretending to be anonymous again?

    Suing the FLDS corporation for compensation is NOT the same as recieving your compensation. If the FLDS are going to do right then they need to do it without being dragged into court. Not everyone has access to the initial financial outlay needed to begin a lawsuit. Quit with the deceit already!

  68. TexasConnie

    60 to 70 is a pretty large jury pool for 12 plus alternates. I don’t know how many they’ll start out with because the big issue with this jury pool will probably be pretrial publicity. I doubt it will be more than 100. Still the worst case scenario of 12 case x 100 juror is quite a large number for Schleicher County.

    The first case will help them benchmark the later cases.

  69. The polygs have already published a voter’s guide. Poor old deci does not know what has gone on or is going on. Just blathers a bunch of carp and lies to deceive people.

  70. A slave can never leave. ….. If an antebellum slave attempted to escape, he/she had to contend with slave patrols, lawmen, and bounty hunters and even if they made it North they were often eventually captured and brought back south……Big difference between Mormon polygamy and slavery.

    Let’s see women who try to leave with valuable girl children have police patrols and then they have groups of men in pickup trucks loitering around where they are known to have left to….We of course don’t know how many were “captured” because they aren’t talking….

    I don’t see any difference

  71. Personally, I think Ms Malonis and Judge Walther should sue Bill Mudpucky for slander and libel. But I doubt that will happen..Of course the FBI is watching Medvecky’s site.

  72. Rebeckah, Duane did not post that anonymously, I did.

    No, it is NOT right to have to sue the FLDS to keep from being cheated. But historically, that is what it has taken.

    Ben was compensated … he got a ratty little trailer to live in off of UEP property.

  73. Was Ben’s compensation fair? Probably not. But he was outta there with a roof over his head.

  74. Principle Voices of Polygamy did publish a voter guide a couple of years ago for the Utah elections.

    I don’t think it made much difference in the outcome of the elections though.

  75. Principal Voices isn’t any better than FLDS! They just hide their fraud better.

  76. Anne Wilde and Mary Batcholor are hypercrites in the worst way.

  77. Funny thing is that neither of them even live the PRINCIPLE!

  78. Deputydog there are 3,000 plus people in Schleicher County. The plus are the FLDS. Preraid it could of been 3,750 if counted.

    There are approx. 1880 register voters including FLDS voters as of April 2009.

  79. Deputydog Schleicher County is 75% hispanic.

  80. Correction Scheicher County School are 75% hispanic.
    But see the story below.

    Migration dip cuts Hispanics’ growth rate
    The Associated Press
    Published: 05.14.2009
    WASHINGTON – Deterred by immigration laws and the lackluster economy, the population growth of Hispanics and Asians in the U.S. has slowed unexpectedly, causing the government to push back estimates on when minorities will become the majority by as much as a decade.
    Census data released Thursday showed that the nation’s overall minority population continues to rise steadily, adding 2.3 percent in 2008 to 104.6 million, or 34 percent of the total population. But the slowdown among Hispanics and Asians continues to shift conventional notions on when the tipping point in U.S. diversity will come – estimated to occur more than three decades from now.
    According to the latest data, the percentage growth of Hispanics slowed from 4.0 percent in 2001 to 3.2 percent last year. Their slowed population growth would have been greater if it weren’t for their high fertility – nearly 10 births for every death.
    Asian population increases slowed from 3.7 percent in 2001 to about 2.5 percent. Hispanics and Asians still are the two fastest-growing minority groups, making up about 15 percent and 4.4 percent of the U.S. population, respectively.
    Thirty-six states had lower Hispanic growth in 2008 compared with the year before. The declines were in places where the housing bubble burst, such as Nevada and Arizona, which lost construction jobs that tend to attract immigrants.
    Arizona’s total population grew by 2.3 percent from 2007 to 2008, slightly below its 2.6 percent average growth rate for the eight preceding years.
    Hispanics grew by 4 percent statewide from 2007 to 2008 compared to an average 4.6 percent growth rate for prior years and Asians grew by 4.8 percent during the same time frame compared to an average rate of 5.7 percent for the 2000 to 2007 years.

    In all, about 309 of the nation’s 3,142 counties, or 1 in 10, have minority populations greater than 50 percent. Other counties that become majority-minority in 2008 were Stanislaus in California; Finney in Kansas; Warren in Mississippi; and Edwards and Schleicher counties in Texas.

    My guess not the ratio will be on the high side when FLDS is
    counted.

  81. Duane: “Yeah right! Enough posts have been made by enough antiflds like Buster, Cajim, Blues, and my buddy Boots to make it clear that the objective is to destroy their religion and culture.”

    It’s the crime syndicate we want to see destroyed, Duane.

  82. kwright, many of us do not consider polygamy in and of itself, to be a crime…not at all. Yet many of you equate polygamist households as equivalent to a crime family that runs crack houses, sells crystal meth, and other organized crime type offenses. I find that kind of attitude to be an outrageous injustice, let alone cruel and repressive. Perhaps this is a key factor in why discussions about polygamy are always heated.

  83. Does anyone know why Pliggy left the FLDS in the first place? Has he said?

  84. Duane polygamy is a crime whether you or anyone else considers it a crime. No man is an island and none is a law unto himself. There are crimes that I think should not be criminal offenses but that doesn’t mean they aren’t.

    An organized community that practices and communally conceals criminal acts is an organized criminal enterprise by definition. Taking exception to that or feeling insulted is just ludicrous. Aggravated sexual assault of a child is as “bad” as running a meth lab in my book. A while community supporting and concealing aggravated sexual assaults of children is worse than running a meth lab. Even worse is an entire community supporting and concealing aggravated sexual abuses of children under a religious pretext.

  85. “The following ordinance shall be irrevocable without the consent of the United States and the people of this State… No inhabitant of this State shall ever be molested in person or property on account of his or her mode of religious worship; but polygamous or plural marriages are forever prohibited.”

  86. I 2nd that FLDS TEXAS.Keep up the good work.

  87. I 2nd that FLDS TEXAS.Keep up the good work.

  88. Well said, FLDS TX and Greets. Bottom line: polygamy is only the first crime in this syndicate. There are many others, and now the gig is up. The world outside of Utah has had a peek into their dirty little crime family, and no amount of keeping sweet or prairie dresses can take away that feeling like you just threw up a little in your mouth.

  89. I watched the 80-minute Banking on Heaven video tonight. Wow. A lot to absorb. Many first-hand accounts that are credible. Some sad stories, and deepened my admiration or the women who have left and are speaking publicly. Wish I could make every Texas legislator sit down and watch it. If we in Texas do not push for aggressive prosecution of all the criminal activities of the FLDS cult, then in a few years the same documentary could be filmed in Eldorado, Texas instead of Colorado City/Hilldale.

  90. FLDS TEXAS:
    Based on some earlier posts, Pliggy’s leaving the flds had to do with his involvement with porn. I am reasonably sure that his leaving was involuntary.

  91. TexasConnie I am not sure if you have been to this site but they have an awful lot of info. http://thehopeorg.org/ There are tabs at the top of the page and each tab has story after story.

    A great group of people that are trying to help.

  92. Here is another site: http://www.azfamily.com/sharedcontent/southwest/azfamily/features/polygamy/index3.html

    Mike Watkiss has been following the stories for years. Again there are tabs at the top.

  93. If the FLDS are going to do right then they need to do it without being dragged into court.
    =======================================================
    Since doing a fair and balanced compensation without using the courts doesn’t leave the same obvious paper trail as court documents, how would you know how many cases where fair compensation was granted without using the court system?

  94. The FLDS doesn’t care about fair compensation. They are crooks who cheat people. And they only settle after they are dragged into the courts kicking and screaming.

  95. An organized community that practices and communally conceals criminal acts is an organized criminal enterprise by definition.
    ================================================================
    “Adlai Stephenson once said that ‘guilt is personal and, I might add, not communal.’ Our Court has held many times that mere presence at a particular place is not sufficient to establish participation in a particular act….”
    ===============================================================
    Aggravated sexual assault of a child is as “bad” as running a meth lab in my book.
    ==============================================================
    “The phrase ‘child abuse’ cannot be invoked as a talismanic incantation to support the exercise of state power which egregiously violates both the First and Fifth Amendment rights. Even where the state acts in a noble cause, it must act lawfully.” Id., Dismissal Order, p. 7
    ==================================================
    I see where you are coming from FldsTexas, I really do. I, however, have my own opinion.

  96. The FLDS doesn’t care about fair compensation.
    ============================================
    Since it doesn’t make the papers how would you know which cases was settled amicably with smiles on all sides?

  97. #

    The FLDS doesn’t care about fair compensation.
    ============================================
    Since it doesn’t make the papers how would you know which cases was settled amicably with smiles on all sides?

    Alinusara10 said this on August 15, 2009 at 10:13 AM

    Because I live here and I go to the court hearings!

  98. 40 years ago today, 400,000 people gathered in Max Yasgur’s farm in Bethel, N.Y for 3 days of drugs, sex and rock-and-roll. It started the “Woodstock generation.”

    Where were you?

  99. Because I live here and I go to the court hearings!
    ==============================================
    /Bangs head on table. All that means is you seen cases that was settled less then amicable or needed the finer details ironed out.

  100. how would you know which cases was settled amicably with smiles on all sides?

    You don’t. However, most folks who believe that God is on their side aren’t very interested in settlement.

  101. Walton, I’ve visited both of those sites. I’ve been researching the FLDS for a while now. Thanks for your input. A very active and interesting community has developed here on the FLDS Texas site. (And thanks to the admins for hosting both the information and discussion.)

  102. Anonymous 10:18 AM said:
    “40 years ago today, 400,000 people gathered in Max Yasgur’s farm in Bethel, N.Y for 3 days of drugs, sex and rock-and-roll. It started the “Woodstock generation. Where were you?”

    I was 5 🙂 so not much recollection going on. However, when I was 8 or 9 my mother’s best friend, a music teacher, gave me a small box record player and a huge stack of Motown 45’s. From that day forward I’ve always been more of an R & B girl — rather than rock n roll.

  103. I wasn’t born yet *smiling* Im more of a R & B girl myself, but I can Rock when I get in the mood 🙂

  104. “kwright, many of us do not consider polygamy in and of itself, to be a crime…not at all.”

    Saying that it shouldn’t be a crime is one thing; saying it is not is just plain WRONG! Saying it over and over and over for a year and a half is just plain STUPID.

  105. When woodstock happened, I was in high school, LOL just gave my age away.. Didn’t really want to go, especially after seeing what was goin on with all the pot, cocaine… But, I absolutley still love Janis Joplin!!

  106. FLDS Texas, I was of course talking about polygamy, not “aggravated sexual assault”. We all know now based on apostates accounts that all marriages within the FLDS are quite secretive affairs whether anyone is underage or not. PK even said that oftentimes, you wouldn’t know if a couple was married until you saw them sharing a smoothie at the local cafe. No doubt this is a legacy of constant oppression towards mormon fundies that contintues to this day. No doubt very few knew about WJeffs and MJ, none of the FLDS faithful who posted in various blogs expressed approval and all were shocked. The difference between them and us is they assumed that it was ceremonial-more of an honorary “sealing, while most of us assumed they had sex.
    My opinion is that they didnt’ have sex, especially since Warren’s dictations indicated immediatly after the “sealing” he went back to attending other business matters. However i wasn’t there so can’t say for sure.

    Bottom line, their is no evidence they all as in “those people” or more specifically “FLDS members”, engaged in a massive conspircacy to engage in “aggravated sexual assault of a child”.

    Polygamy/polyamory is not “sexual assult of a child” any more than homosexuality is.

  107. I was 15. My mother would not let me ride that far in a car full of older boys, and I didn’t have money to go anyway. It was really not a big thing in my life until after the movie came out.

  108. Duane, there’s no question that sexual assault did not happen in every household but every adult was aware that it was happening and agreed to it’s continuance by agreeing to subscribe to the absolute authority of the prophet. They have all agreed to conceal it as well because they are not reporting it and there are elaborate sysytems within the community to keep it a secret. All adult members adhere to those beliefs and have agreed to keep secret the abuses on children. The only ones who have broken from the community wide conspiracy to conceal the crimes are the apostates who have left because of it. You call them liars.

    Every adult who remains a part of the FLDS religion is bound to conceal abuses against children and they are therefore actively engaged in the perpetuation of the practice.

    Polygamy in and of itself is still a crime, even if you don’t consider it a crime.

  109. “Polygamy/polyamory is not “sexual assult of a child” any more than homosexuality is.”

    No, but get it through your thick head that sexual assault of a child is indeed sexual assault of a child no matter how you try to dress it up with religion.

    As far as everyone knowing…I lived on a farm in a small town for a year. If my boyfriend and I had a fight over breakfast, the whole town was talking about it by lunch time. 700 people at YFZ, and he has to move a family out in order to move his new concubine into her own room….they knew. Everyone at YFZ knew.

  110. Anyone who can remember where they were during Woodstock 40 years ago wasn’t THERE. So I’ve heard.

  111. Accomplices to the sexual assault of an underage polygamist female (all potentially guilty of failure to report child abuse):

    1. Parents of the underage female
    2. Brothers and sisters of underage female who don’t report it
    3. Other wives of the male polygamist/child abuser
    4. Anyone helping to conduct the ceremony including anyone who owns the place where the ceremony is conducted

    When you really start looking at the number of criminal acts that remain uncharged it’s pretty sobering. Yes, Duane, it doesn’t mean that everyone is guilty, but the number of people who potentially are guilty is quite large.

  112. Psssttt!! duane!! Don’t ya think it became a little obvious girls were being married off, when they were moved to another house in the middle of the night? Regardless if you Flds, Lds, Catholic, Baptist, Buddhists, etc,,, Little girls 12-16 are still giggly, share their secrets with friends! Trust me duane, at YFZ ranch everyone KNEW when a little girl was married off!!

  113. And anyone who was hopelessly clueless had to know when she started showing a few months later. . . duh!

  114. Or throwing UP every morning!

  115. FLDS Texas, no doubt they have sex in private so we have to assume there were not witnesses to any sex acts. The only evidence of sex would be a pregnancy. Merely observing or being in the presence of a pregnant teen is not enought to be charged as an accomplice.

    We also know that Warren even kept some marriages secret from the bride and groom’s parents. I found that level of secrecy by Warren rather galling but again, It recieved rather short shrift on this board, no doubt because it is strong evidence that no everyone knew what was going on.

    Ron, I’m thinking in order to prove who was an accomplice or not you would need testimony from witnesses. These cases appear to be stricly based on hearsay evidence and possibly dna. So far, it doesn’t look like anyone from YFZ will be testifying. If so, these trials will be unusual, the proseccution making its case soley by presenting slips of paper, photos, and lists written by who knows who.

  116. “If the FLDS are going to do right then they need to do it without being dragged into court.
    =======================================================
    Since doing a fair and balanced compensation without using the courts doesn’t leave the same obvious paper trail as court documents, how would you know how many cases where fair compensation was granted without using the court system?”

    It doesn’t matter if they DID compensate some people fairly. Some people had to go to court over it, which proves that they didn’t have a unilateral practice of fairly recompensing individuals they kicked out of the church.

    It is only speculation on my part, but I rather suspect that the majority who were kicked out were given nothing like reasonable compensation but simply took what they could take with them and left. The fact that they didn’t file lawsuits also doesn’t make it acceptable that this group would fleece their young members like that. I’ll say it again. If you’re going to do right, you do it without requiring a court order. You do it because it’s right. You don’t do right by some people and not by others. You just do what’s right — then you can hold your head high because you know that you’ve behaved justly, ethically, and humanely. Anyone who says that “God” gives them permission to cheat people is simply a cheat who hides behind a “God”.

  117. They are moving behind twin fences and Guard Towers with security cameras aimed inwardly? Now when the convictions are brought we just have to change the locks to face outside and arrest the guys up in the Guard Tower. Hee,hee

  118. Duane,

    I am SO going to enjoy watching you eat your words. Should we put this nonsense in a file and send it to you in the coming months?

  119. “Merely observing or being in the presence of a pregnant teen is not enought to be charged as an accomplice.”

    When you observe a pregnant teenager that you know was moved into the house of an older man with other concubines, then you have grounds to report possible child abuse for the authorities to investigate. There is no indication that any of these holy, righteous people did anything of the sort. No matter how you try to weasel around it, that’s being an accomplice. Whether it can be proven or not, it’s still being an accomplice. If you don’t want to be suspected of evil, you avoid the appearance of evil, you don’t go around claiming that evil is good.

    “We also know that Warren even kept some marriages secret from the bride and groom’s parents.”

    How do you keep an underage marriage away from the parents of the underage child? Any parent who was that neglegent with their child had no business being a parent. Any parent who was surprised to find their daughter married off by Warren is guilty of being an accomplice unless they actually filed some sort of a complaint against him. I guarantee you, if anyone tried to marry off my underage daughter, or my granddaughter, would find themselves answering questions from the police as soon as I discovered it. (And since I have a great relationship with my children and grandchildren, that wouldn’t take any time at all. They tell me everything.)

  120. Rebeckah,

    I think there is one marriage that WSJ spoke of in his dictations where he asked someone to bring the girl and not tell her parents. The parents were living in short creek and someone else was dispatched to bring her to YFZ. He married her off to someone else, I think one of Merrill’s sons, but I’m not sure.

    I can see sending your daughter off to stay a few weeks with a cousin and then finding out she got “married” while she was there. Although in my opinion, anyone who sent a 14-18 year old girl to YFZ and didn’t expect her to get married just wasn’t paying attention.

  121. The highest status in these young girl’s lives happens when they are the new favorite and when they present their husbands with babies. To think that you couldn’t tell such a change in status in a highly status oriented society such as that is absurd. Let alone changing where she lives and sleeps, etc.

  122. “I can see sending your daughter off to stay a few weeks with a cousin and then finding out she got “married” while she was there.”

    My question is, did they report this abuse when they found out? THAT is the crux, to me. Warren took liberties that were wrong and parents who protect their children would have protested them. If they didn’t, they are accomplices after the fact.

  123. #

    Anyone who can remember where they were during Woodstock 40 years ago wasn’t THERE. So I’ve heard.

    GrannyToad said this on August 15, 2009 at 1:25 PM

    Touche GrannyToad

  124. /Bangs head on table. All that means is you seen cases that was settled less then amicable or needed the finer details ironed out.

    Alinusara10 said this on August 15, 2009 at 10:26 AM

    You don’t know what the hell I’ve seen so quit trying to act like you do.

    And, now I am the one banging my head on the table for even trying to communicate with you.

    I’ll give up even trying … your posts are on IGNORE for me!

  125. duane,,, If someone came in the middle of the night to your house and said they were taking your daughter somewhere else, don’t tell me the parent is SO DAMN ignorant they wouldn’t know why they were being taken!! And IF you believe they were that ignorant, then definetly most of FLDS are struck with Fumerase disorder, or STUPIDITY!

  126. duane, Stop making excuses for criminal activity!!!

  127. *sniffles*

    40 years ago I was 14 and so disappointed that I wasn’t at Woodstock.

    I have never seen the movie.

  128. Anonymous: I was in grade school. But being as I am from New York, I know that Woodstock actually happened in Bethel, NY.

  129. On good morning america, they were at the exact spot where woodstock was held, there were probably 25 people there, LOL
    Boy oh Boy, has times changed, LOL

  130. 40 yrs ago, I’d just “run away from home” [after graduation of course!] and was moving into my first house at the beach in SoCal. Life was gooood!!! Just 18 and on my own!
    I guess it coulda been worse. I coulda been married off to some old goat and had 7-8 kids by then!

  131. lol, I just have to share this from another blog —

    As Seen on a Facebook Book of Mormon Poll thread:

    “Texas Othodox Mormons. (referring to the FLDS.)

    I like it. I am going to run with it.

    Let it be written that TOM means Texas Orthodox Mormons fka FLDS.”

    http://www.exmormon.org/boards/w-agora/index.php?site=exmobb&bn=exmobb_recovery

  132. Ron, I’m thinking in order to prove who was an accomplice or not you would need testimony from witnesses.

    Charge em, and they’ll start singing like canaries. There are no witnesses because only a few have been charged.

  133. TBM has a post about Warren’s dream about Allen Holm, here. I thought it would be interesting to look at the dream from the standpoint of Freudian analysis. (Remember that NONE of this has to do with Holm; it is entirely Warren’s mind I’m considering. Also, this is complete amateur puffery. Nowise am I trained to do this.)

    “And I saw on the mountain and coming down walking toward father on the hill, Allen Holm, who had been wandering in the trees with a lady that did not belong to him…”

    Mountain: represents male sexuality;
    Descending: represents impotence;
    The lady who didn’t belong to him: can be one of two things—she is most probably his mother (since his father is in the dream) but she could also be the “Anima”, Warren’s repressed feminine side;
    The hill: represents the female body (which his father is standing on);

    “…And he walked right down to father and lit a cigarette, and started smoking and blowing the smoke toward father.”

    • Cigarette: another powerful phallic symbol. But it could also be a symbol of oral gratification, implying that Jeffs is “stuck” at a very juvenile point of psychosexual development;
    • Smoke: this could be a symbol of anxiety or a symbol of ejaculation/creativity, or both.

    “And being protective of father as I always was towards father’s needs, I walked up and said to Allan Holm, you must leave now. I stood between him and father, and even put my hand on him. And he angrily said, ‘Don’t you touch me, you can’t force me to do anything.’ And he kept smoking and calmly walked away in his defiant spirit.”

    Freud believed most dreams involve three characters: the dreamer, a woman, and a man. He said that for neurotics, these figures represented the Oedipus complex.

    The Oedipus complex is a subconscious feeling in children of intense competition toward the parent of the same sex and feelings of romantic love toward the parent of the opposite sex. If something happens to disrupt emotional maturation, a neurotic remains fixated here.

    So who is the fourth character, “Allen Holm”, who is the subject of Warren’s bitter resentment in this dream? Of course he isn’t Holm himself; he’s standing in for something else for Jeffs. Something that moves in on his mother and flaunts his father’s authority. Something extremely threatening.

    I think it’s Jeffs’ own doppelgänger dressed up as Allen Holm. By that I mean it’s the things which are repressed in Jeffs, the things which should have remained hidden but have emerged to haunt his psychic fortress.

  134. Never seen the movie??? Oh, you should. It’s part of history and it will make you laugh. You will say “Wow, look how young they are!”

  135. Blast, I dropt the link to TBM’s post. It’s here:

    http://coramnonjudice.blogspot.com/2009/08/flds-pliggy-allen-holm-truth-according.html

  136. I think dreams almost always involve aspects of yourself. When I can’t understand my dreams, I just try to make all the major elements into parts of me. I used to have this repeating dream about a very strange house with different levels – some were cozy, some were monumental, some were from a horror movie. The dreams persisted until I realized the house was my soul and I internalized what they were telling me. Then they stopped.

  137. When you add that Jeffs was carrying on an affair with one of his father’s wives, it takes that Oedipus thing to a whole nother level, yes?

    I also think dreams use puns or common expressions in surprising ways. I think “blowing smoke” means in this dream exactly what it does in the common expression. The rebellious, licentious part of himself is ‘blowing smoke’ in the old man’s face.

  138. I wonder if his dreams could tell a trained Freudian where his pathology lies.

    All I can do is note that in his case, a cigar is not just a cigar.

  139. Well, there’s that whole mother-child attachment problem in polygamous communes, but it isn’t enough to say that not bonding with your mother is bad (duh!); it would be more helpful to know why it doesn’t work.

    And then there’s the question of just what sex means. There was a lot of territorial aggression in Warren taking over his father’s harem, but was the primary impetus libido or power?

  140. Bosu! A wah yu kno, Blessed be Yahshua Ha Mashiyad.
    Doncha kno, smokin’ mo ganga takes us to higha hites. Evilous mon dis Warren Jeffs, him a sunday mornin’ ginnal. He’ll lie dem lies to gett whad him wantin’ and daggering young’uns is his holy talk. ‘De Wurk’ him sayez make a gashment of de churhyard, yu no see it? Puttin’ away dis Dizzee ginnal, he chain rattlin’ de dungeon now, no true. Warren no worry’in no picknee dahtas, dis Parson Grindsman no hurt anymo’ yute. No more worry, everyting gonna be all’ite. Yah, mon, me no lie.
    Y’shua Peez from above. One Life, One Love Bengie

  141. “Well, there’s that whole mother-child attachment problem in polygamous communes, but it isn’t enough to say that not bonding with your mother is bad (duh!); it would be more helpful to know why it doesn’t work.”

    Funny thing; yesterday I had all four of my grandchildren plus the toddler of one of my son’s friends. I was sharing with my daughter over the phone about how her two were doing and she suddenly broke in and said, “So you have FIVE children right now?”
    I replied, “Yeah. Now I know what it feels like to be a Mormon or a Catholic.” and she (who hates my FLDS obsession) corrected me with “More like a polygamist mother since you’re taking care of someone else’s children.” 😉

  142. Can we not check the box marked “all of the above”? Why not both libido and power? They are so often linked.

  143. I thought that Freud was pretty much discredited these days.

  144. In Flds Bonding isn’t encouraged at all. In Flds, You have Prophet (their god) then leadership (the god’s henchmen) they you have temple workers (those who do all the work, labor, tithe) then Temple builders. Temple Builders by reading warren’s dictations are the “Elite” in the group. The females especially because they can have children. Just as warren ask his daughter Teresa, if she was willing to be a temple builder, she said yes.
    Get married underage, get preggo and have huge amount of children.
    We already know, the prophet decides what children go where, when they go, and who they go with. Much of the time, these children aren’t with their biological mothers.
    If you bond with each child, as nature says we are supposed to, there is no way, the mother would allow their child, boy or girl, to be taken from them.
    But these people aren’t taught this way. They are taught, they are just bodies and have tasks to fulfill for the “prophet” and for “celestial heaven”
    It turns my stomach everytime I try to see some kind of relevance in this belief.

  145. I have to worry about FLDS youngsters growing up with serious attatchment disorders. The caregiver/child bond is especially important and if it is disrupted can lead to all sorts of mental problems. I’ve known children with attatchment disorders. They’re very scary as children and would be downright terrifying as adults.

  146. The relevance is that the Mad Hatter stays in charge of the Wonderland and he decides who gets the tea and who gets served the ‘Kool-aid’. If your not invited to the ‘Lands of Refuge’ then your not an official Mickey Mouse Club member and you can’t even visit Fantasyland. Funny thing is the Hatter right now may have lost his job and someone else is in charge of the Tea Party.

  147. Freud will be discredited about the same time Charles Darwin is. Both may be criticized on particulars but both described something irrefutable and revolutionary (genetic adaptation and the role of the subconscious).

    When I first looked at Jeffs’ dream, there was so little female in it I wondered if it was about repressed homosexuality. But in thinking about each persona in the dream, it became clear to me that it goes back to that oedipal thing but with the twist that the mother is formless—he desires the woman in the woods, but doesn’t know her.

    IMHO, the first part of the dream was Jeffs’ subconscious speaking. The second part of the dream was his repressive self seeking to tamp down the first part, his waking self stuffing his longings firmly back into their box.

  148. Steven Carl Jessop, 35, 160 W. Utah Ave., Hildale, was arrested Friday on charges of three counts of outstanding warrant. Jessop was booked into Purgatory Correctional Facility on $946 bail.

  149. JESSOP, RANDALL DELOY
    Birth Date: 07/01/86
    Address : 2404 S 450 W, Washington, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    20:29:03 08/14/09 Leugers, Joshua WCJL

  150. BARLOW, ETHER JOSEPH
    Birth Date: 08/06/89
    Address : 1152 E. BIG PINION LN, Apple Valley, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    18:57:26 08/14/09 Leugers, Joshua WCSO

  151. JESSOP, TRACY LEE
    Birth Date: 06/01/67
    Address : 965 N HOMER ST, Hildale, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    18:23:44 08/14/09 Leugers, Joshua WCJL

  152. All these men were arrested the last two days!

  153. I always wonder, Deputydog, just how many of these arrests are FLDS and how many are CP. After all, they share the same basic last names. (Not that I’m defending anyone or trying to point fingers. It’s just an intellectual curiosity.)

  154. Rebeckah, I don’t know, but two of them have pictures, and the older ones look like they had a very hard life , if you know what I mean? Like they been rode hard, and put up wet!

  155. WOW!! I just went to the website that Walton mentioned–way up there in this thread..

    I know–I am a bit behind!! I just don’t have time for this anymore!! But–I did take time to visit the website–it’s really good..I learned alot!!

  156. Deputy, you missed a couple more arrests. This guy is probably CP group from the mug shot.

    DOCKSTADER, JEDD LEROY
    Birth Date: 12/15/80
    Address : 2195 SOUTH PINE TREE LN, Colorado City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    21:08:52 08/15/09 Trombley, Eric WCSO

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    WARRANT-C/B WARRANT-CASH OR BOND BM SLCJ 1000.00 1000.00

    This guy is probably CP group.

  157. JESSOP, RANDALL DELOY mug shot looks like CP group.

    BARLOW, ETHER JOSEPH mug shot looks like FLDS.

    JESSOP, TRACY LEE mug shot looks like FLDS – snd he really does look like he was ridden hard and put up wet.

    JESSOP, STEVEN CARL mug shot just looks really scary!

    DARGER, SAMUEL DAVID – definitely CP because he has a CP address. He looks REALLY scary, too.

    DARGER, SAMUEL DAVID
    Birth Date: 01/22/79
    Address : PO BOX 1056, Centennial Park, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    07:24:00 08/14/09 Johnson, Steven HCPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    41-6a-601 SPEED CM WCJ3 240.00 240.00
    41-6a-526 ALCOHOL- OPEN CONTAIN CM WCJ3 100.00 100.00
    41-6a-502 DUI-1st,2nd OFFENSE BM WCJ3 1340.00 1340.00

  158. JESSOP, STEVEN CARL
    Birth Date: 06/07/74
    Address : 160 W UTAH AVE, Hildale, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    10:56:02 08/14/09 Jessop, Jim WCSO

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    WARRANT-CASH WARRANT-CASH ONLY BM WCJ3 42.00 42.00
    WARRANT-C/B WARRANT-CASH OR BOND BM WCJ3 464.00 464.00
    WARRANT-CASH WARRANT-CASH ONLY BM WCJ3 440.00 440.00

  159. Thanks anonymous,, isn’t Terry Darger the Mayor of Colorado City or sumpthin? Wonder how they are related??

  160. Just accept the fact that they’re all related somehow.

  161. If Short Creek (Colorado City, Centennial Park, and Hildale) has 10,000 people, you could expect arrests to run about as follows per year:

    Murder/Manslaughter 0.4
    Forcible rape 0.8
    Robbery 4.2
    Aggravated assault 15
    Burglary 10.2
    Larceny-theft 36.1
    Motor vehicle theft 4.6
    Arson 0.6
    Other assaults 43.6
    Forgery and counterfeiting 3.6
    Fraud 9.4
    Embezzlement 0.7
    Stolen property 4.1
    Vandalism 10
    Weapons 6.7
    Prostitution/commercialized vice 2.7
    Sex offenses (other) 2.9
    Drug abuse violations 63.1
    Gambling 0.4
    Offenses against family 4.4
    Driving under influence 48.8
    Liquor laws 21.6
    Drunkenness 18.5
    Disorderly conduct 23.5
    Vagrancy 1.2
    All other offenses 134
    Suspicion 0.1
    Curfew and loitering 5.1
    Runaways 3.8

    This is straight up from the FBI’s national arrest rate data for 2006—not adjusted for age, gender, region, race, economics or any other factor.

  162. well–deputydog–glad you said they look scary–actually–when I see some of them on tv or in pictures..they just sorta have a “funny” look. I don’t mean that to sound “mean”–they just look sorta strange????

  163. Well, I don’t know, you may think it’s impossible to discredit Freud, I think it’s old news…

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article713089.ece

    just for instance.

  164. In that he essentially invented psychological therapy it’s hard to see how Freud could ever be discredited. Every form of mental illness treatment other than the purely physical descends from Freud’s theories, including those which expressly disregard the non-conscious mind.

    He didn’t claim to be a scientist; he was an analyst and theoretician

    And the writer of that article fittingly concludes, “Yet his influence on all of us was enormous, and it would be as impossible to return to a pre-Freudian way of thinking as to return to a pre-heliocentric theory of the solar system.”

  165. On the other hand, I think his Odepal theories have been pretty much discredited. (I could be wrong since I don’t have anything specific to hang that on, it just seems like I remember something along those lines while taking Psych 101 several hundred years ago when I was much younger.)

    Basically, if I remember correctly, Freud was attributing stories of sexual abuse told to him by women to their desires, rather than reality. Since sexual abuse was a reality, even in Victorian England, then his premise is somewhat flawed and the conclusion he drew definitely questionable.

    Now, given that Warren clearly has a fixation on one of his “step-mothers” I think there might be SOME validity to your interpretation of Warren’s “dream”, but somehow I don’t think Warren ever saw Naomi in a son/mother way. Isn’t he older than her by quite a bit?

  166. Ive never been to a therapist. I have however had an anxiety disorder for years, better now that im older. But, let me say this about doctors,,, once you tell a doctor you have an anxiety disorder, or a depression disorder, from that point on, any true ailment you have, they decide it’s connected to the anxiety or the depression.
    Most doctors don’t look any further for real physical ailments after that. For instance,,, four years ago, I started having constant diarreha,,, I let it go for about 4 weeks, continually losing weight. But it got so bad, I spend half the day in the restroom and every thing I ate went right through me, didn’t matter what I ate, or how much immodium AD I took.
    My husband finally made me go to the doctor… First thing out of his mouth was “What are you anxious about??”
    I wasn’t anxious, I had a physical medical problem…After Two visits, he finally sent me to a gastrointerologist (sp)
    I had a colonscopy done, and I had micro colitis. It had NOTHING to do with the anxiety problem, and the gastro doc, couldn’t undertand why my doctor hadn’t sent me sooner. Id gone 4 months this way.
    He put me on medication and in 4 days I was already 100% better.
    I changed doctors after that, but because I had told this doctor I had anxiety disorder, all symptoms led him to believe it was in my mind.
    Im sure Frued has some good theories, but that’s what they are, theories.
    When I changed doctors, for a year I NEVER told him Id ever had anxiety problem for the fear, he to wouldn’t listen to me when I really had a physical problem.

  167. The Oedipal interpretation would be that the dream represents the psychosexual stage where he hates his father and lusts after his mother, which is why she is in the forest of his deepest desires, surrounded by phalluses.

    He can have all the step-mothers he wants, but only one mother gave birth to him and nursed him and… oh, wait. This is the FLDS.

  168. My theory about Warren Jeffs is this. He was born a fraile wimpy, nerdy kid. And the only thing he had going for him was that his father was HIGH up in leadership and became prophet. I doubt Warren ever had any friends to speak of, and that he was probably bullied, maybe even take advantage of sexually himself.
    When Warren became the principal of Alta Academy, he felt like HE was finally SOMEBODY!. And he didn’t spend anytime getting around to bullying little kids and teens. He could now because he was a big shot! And he manipulated his own father the older his father got. Few of Warren’s other brothers ever got to be with their father, warren saw to that.
    Then when daddy died,, Warren made himself Prophet,but to make sure he became prohpet, he was screwing around with Naomi, his fathers young wife. Warren is a sicko, always was a sicko,and giving him or allowing him to take any kind of power was a mistake.

  169. DD, everyone I know has had therapy. We discuss it like some people talk about football.

    And I actually think that’s healthy. Healthier, anyway, than putting antidepressants in the drinking water, which is where I’m afraid we’re headed.

  170. Warren Steed Jeffs mother was Marilyn Steed Jeffs,,, he talks alot abot her in his dictations.

    Greetings, I don’t believe in filling your body with meds either.
    But, I also have known people who started therapy, and were there for years and years! There should be a begining and end to therapy. Both with a therapist and with medication if someone needs medication.

  171. My father had chemical depression for years, went to therapy for years, took meds for years, finally ended up in the hospital and had shock treatments…
    All that money, therapy sessions, 11 different medicines he was on, did absolutely nothing but make a vegetable out of him.
    After the shock treatments, he got better, but they made him lose some of his past memory, like all the times the family went camping and had fun. He didn’t remember us ever going camping.

  172. Crap I wont even take a whole tylenol, because im so afraid of pills.

  173. Funny how they never mention this bit from Leviticus when they’re justifying polygamy and Warren’s Reign of Terror: “If a man sleeps with his father’s wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”

    I always found that story most interesting about Warren, because securing a king’s harem was an ancient way of securing the throne. Adonijah was put to death for trying it with David’s last concubine. Alexander the Great took over King Darius’ harem when he conquered Persia. And I’m sure I can think of more examples if I try.

  174. When my dad was ill, I can remember as a child looking into his eyes and there was nothing there. I HATE those pictures of Warren Jeffs brooke has plastered on her blog at times, because I see the same thing in Warren’s eyes… There is no one in there.

  175. Did you know when William Timpson Jessop left Flds, his wife Kathy refused to follow him? Isn’t it ironic that the two women who stood up in the meeting after Rulon died to confirm Rulon wanted Warren as the next prophet was Naomi Jeffs and Kathy Johnson Jessop Jeffs!

  176. William Timpson Jessop is now a part of Centinnel Park.

  177. I may be in error, but wasn’t Willie Timpson who was supposed to step up into the position that Warren took for himself?

  178. deputydog1 Are you saying that Willie has joined the CPark group?

    Is his mother still part of Warrens group?

    Or have the two groups merged?

  179. It is my opinion that big talkin’ Willie should be in jail.

    Does anyone remember the allegations concerning Willie and Fred Jessop?

  180. Check this out. There are photos of Willie E. Jessop and Willie R. Jessop.

    Big talkin’ Willie is actually Willie R. Jessop

  181. Sorry I forgot the link: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700233581,00.html

    I believe it was Willie R. Jessop whose home got raided early when Warren was on the run. Willie R. was working with the Feds from what I remember.

  182. Thanks for the pics Walton. Although I think I heard dueling banjos whilst scrolling through.

  183. Walton, there were allegations that Will Timpson perpetrated identity theft on Fred Jessop. I refer to him as Will Timpson to keep from confusing him with big mouth Willie. I’ve heard that Timpson has moved to Idaho after getting exed.

  184. Naomi want the only one Warren was screwing around with before Rulon died. Ora’s twins were born conspicuously “premature”

  185. FLDS Texas- Here is where I read about the allegations. http://www.childpro.org/newsletter/PolygamyNews0108.pdf

    Is there a third Willie?

  186. I have to go to work. I’ll stop back tonight.

  187. I thought that William E. (Timpson) Jessop was replaced as Bishop of Short Creek by Lyle Jeffs and is now at Pringle, SD as an assistant along with Isaac Jeffs to Bishop Stephen Harker.

  188. Another toddler gets run over at home in Utah.

    2-year-old run over by family member’s vehicle

    By Reporter

    Deseret News
    Published: Sunday, Aug. 16, 2009 11:16 p.m. MDT

    A 2-year-old boy was run over by a family member as the driver backed a vehicle out of the driveway Sunday evening.

    Sandy City Police Capt. Jon Arnold said the boy was taken to the hospital in critical condition.

    At around 6:45 p.m. the boy was playing on the front lawn of his home near 9300 South and Greenwood Drive as the driver was maneuvering past a second vehicle in the driveway. The driver did not see the 2-year-old move behind the car, Arnold said.

    Police are calling the incident a “tragic accident,” and Arnold said charges would not be filed.

    — Clayton Norlen

  189. Jim — Timpson is reportedly in Idaho and no linger associated with FLDS.

  190. The fact that they didn’t file lawsuits also doesn’t make it acceptable that this group would fleece their young members like that.
    ===============================================
    I dunno. When I grew up and moved out of my parent’s house I didn’t file any lawsuits over any of the belongings that my parents owned.

  191. “…And he walked right down to father and lit a cigarette, and started smoking and blowing the smoke toward father.”

    • Cigarette: another powerful phallic symbol. But it could also be a symbol of oral gratification, implying that Jeffs is “stuck” at a very juvenile point of psychosexual development;
    • Smoke: this could be a symbol of anxiety or a symbol of ejaculation/creativity, or both.
    ==================================================
    Freud himself wrote “Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.”

  192. Much of the time, these children aren’t with their biological mothers.
    =================================================
    I thought that at the time of the raid all of the children with the exception of 3 was with their biological mother?

  193. I have to worry about FLDS youngsters growing up with serious attatchment disorders. The caregiver/child bond is especially important and if it is disrupted can lead to all sorts of mental problems. I’ve known children with attatchment disorders.
    ========================================================
    I thought that all of the independant caregivers and mental health workers stated that these was the most well adjusted children they have seen.

  194. If you bond with each child, as nature says we are supposed to, there is no way, the mother would allow their child, boy or girl, to be taken from them.
    ==================================================
    I thought that the mothers was court ordered to leave their children by Judge Wathers?

  195. Pliggy is just a brown noser, what does he have to gain from some freak who wanted him out?

    Who says he isnt still addicted to internet porn? At least he did it online and didnt abuse little girls like Warren use to do.

  196. Thanks for the link Walton. I have to admit–I’m getting all these Willie’s confused.
    Did ya notice the pictures of the men?>>> they all have the same blank expression…in their eyes???? and Ruth too!!!
    Kinda scary!!!

  197. I don’t know Stamp. If I sent you off into some foreign land, I suspect you may want to return. It’s like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, “There’s no place like home…”

  198. they all have the same blank expression

    The first thing I noticed when the Prairie Dress crowd started showing up on national TV was the very blunt affect they showed. The monotones in their voices and the look in their eyes was so bizarre.

  199. “I dunno. When I grew up and moved out of my parent’s house I didn’t file any lawsuits over any of the belongings that my parents owned.”

    Sigh, apples and oranges again, troll. Did you put in 12+ hours a day in mandatory “work” for other people on your parent’s orders? Did your education suffer because you were working instead of learning?

    “I thought that all of the independant caregivers and mental health workers stated that these was the most well adjusted children they have seen.”

    As you’ve pointed out several times, these were only a small portion of the FLDS people. If mothers are truly interchangeable, a claim which is validated by the stories of children being left to sister wives and the stories of women at the YFZ having left behind children to go to the ranch and even the documented story of the mother giving her two young daughters to Merril and Barbara to raise (and I found her letter to Warren to be very disturbing and it really made me feel she’s essentially traded these two little girls to get her and her husband back into the “chosen” group). All of these give cause for concern. I’ve often wondered how Warren could have done the things he bragged about in his dictations. Attachment disorder would explain quite a lot.

    “I thought that the mothers was court ordered to leave their children by Judge Wathers?”

    You think a lot of stupid things – probably because you close your eyes to the evidence. Judge Walthers didn’t tell any of the women at the YFZ to leave behind all but a few of their children to go start Utopia. Warren Jeffs did that and the women listened. What does that do to the children left behind? How worthless must they feel, being abandoned by their mothers as “not good enough”? The health care workers may have found the younger children to be happy and well adjusted but I wonder how the teens and the children left behind would be assessed? Guess we’ll never know, at least if the intentionally blind like you have a say in matters.

  200. Did you put in 12+ hours a day in mandatory “work” for other people on your parent’s orders? Did your education suffer because you were working instead of learning?
    ===========================================
    I was encourage to do volunteer work like working at the food bank or the adopt a highway program.
    ============================================
    …documented story of the mother giving her two young daughters to Merril and Barbara to raise
    ============================================
    Umm one was a boy. Haven’t you heard of the Fresh Prince of Belair? I’m not sure of the details. Perhaps they was only visiting? Whatever the case may be 2 children out of 439 is not a huge amount that you seem to imply.
    ===============================================
    Walthers didn’t tell any of the women at the YFZ to leave behind all but a few of their children to go start Utopia. Warren Jeffs did that and the women listened
    ==============================================
    Perhaps you can supply the names of the women who joined the YFZ ranch along with the names and ages of the children they left behind if you could be so kind.

  201. So true Ron–I noticed the same thing of the women..they sorta talked slow and slurred like wsj!!!

    And..when you see them in a big group–they all look the same; sorta have a sad–depressed look to them. No brightness in their eyes…even the children are like that!!
    It just seems strange. Even my small puppy shows happiness in her eyes…what’s the deal???

  202. Go do your own research, Alin! You never furnish links.

    There were lots of kids at YFZ without any biological parent picking them up. It is listed as a concern of CPS to the judge who ordered the children’s return, because CPS can neither refuse the judges order nor return the children to a non legal gaurdian. The judge refused to address that. My memory is fuzzy, but I think it was a rather large number of kids in percentage of the whole. This information was corroborated by some of the ad litums who were concerned about their own clients being unclaimed. And we’re not talking about kids who were just with some other relative at the time of the raid; we are talking kids for whom no legal guardian presented themselves to claim them. Big difference. If YOUR kids were being held by CPS, would you send your cousin to pick them up?

  203. “So true Ron–I noticed the same thing of the women..they sorta talked slow and slurred like wsj!!!

    And..when you see them in a big group–they all look the same; sorta have a sad–depressed look to them. No brightness in their eyes”

    They just got raided and their children taken from them.
    Their disposition and confidence improved noticeably as they started winning court victories. They do have a certain manner of speech, my wife and I also noticed most of the men sound similiar to the women. Carolyn Jessop still has the “accent”. Allen Holm has it as well. This is a result of being in relative isolation for a long period of time. That is how you can often tell if someone is from NY, S.Carolina, and different parts of Louisiana.

    The FLDS mother in the video on the flds site performed very well when she asked for the SW and pointed out that hers was a different residence than the others.

  204. It’s obvious Alin does no research on her own. Her and Duane are too scared of what they will read and have to absorb.

    It will really hurt that “YFZ is Candyland” persona Alin & Duane have attached to the ranch and it’s inhabitants when the public realizes how much and how often this group has engaged in it’s illegal activities.

    From tax evasion, money laundering, RICO & MANN ACT charges down to marrying children, transporting them across state lines for sexual purposes, requiring them to have a baby a year, sexual abuse among the boys, and the women being subjugated by fear of losing their children, being sent to a house of hiding or the local mental institution they use in Arizona, they have violated the trust of the government and the public at large as well as within their own families.

    A very few have found courage within to walk away and tell their stories. Given some time, I expect it will be more than a few.

  205. Oh yes, and we’re still waiting for Ruby to be let go, with her children. All of them.

    Ruby’s story will be so horrendous to hear from keeping her captive all these years, I imagine that’s why they move her from place to place and it’s SECRET where she is now.

  206. “Did you put in 12+ hours a day in mandatory “work” for other people on your parent’s orders? Did your education suffer because you were working instead of learning?
    ===========================================
    I was encourage to do volunteer work like working at the food bank or the adopt a highway program.”

    So, no comparison exists between what you experienced as a child and what Carolyn’s oldest son went through. Thanks for admitting it. Now if you can stop with the pathetic attempts to compare the life of a child growing up in mainstream society with the human rights violations many FLDS children have been subjected too you just might regain a shred of credibility.

    “Umm one was a boy. Haven’t you heard of the Fresh Prince of Belair? I’m not sure of the details. Perhaps they was only visiting? Whatever the case may be 2 children out of 439 is not a huge amount that you seem to imply.”

    Two young girls were placed in Merril and Barbara’s care by their mother who was no longer living within the FLDS community for some reason. I don’t know if there was a boy too, but I rather suspect you are referring to some other child or children. Merril told the older girl to stop asking about her mother, as I recall. I’m also not implying a “huge” amount. I’m saying this case lends credibility the concern that it is a frequent and possibly common practice.

    “Perhaps you can supply the names of the women who joined the YFZ ranch along with the names and ages of the children they left behind if you could be so kind.”

    Perhaps you could take a break from posting deceptive and misleading entries and do your own research. Some of them have been listed on this forum. Knock yourself out.

  207. “Perhaps you can supply the names of the women who joined the YFZ ranch along with the names and ages of the children they left behind if you could be so kind.”

    Perhaps you could take a break from posting deceptive and misleading entries
    =====================================================
    I’m sorry but I’m not about to prove a negative. I’m sure that after the previous conversations we had about spreading unfounded rumors that you are more then willing to supply the names of the women of the YFZ ranch along with the names and ages of the children they left behind.

  208. From tax evasion, money laundering, RICO & MANN ACT charges down to marrying children, transporting them across state lines for sexual purposes, requiring them to have a baby a year, sexual abuse among the boys, and the women being subjugated by fear of losing their children, being sent to a house of hiding or the local mental institution they use in Arizona, they have violated the trust of the government and the public at large as well as within their own families.
    =================================================
    You forgot hunting wascally wabbits without a license.

  209. Yes, the truth is hard to read, huh, Alin?

    That was your best reply? the Wascally Wabbits?

    Hold on and I will post the link to Looney Tunes website. You can read all you want on wascally wabbits.

  210. Alin wrote “I’m sure that after the previous conversations we had about spreading unfounded rumors that you are more then willing to supply the names of the women of the YFZ ranch along with the names and ages of the children they left behind.”

    And of course, you ignore my post that tells you where to find the information yourself.

  211. Heh! What’s wrong with showing a bit of humor. Ok for the humorless I’ll be more explicit.

    From tax evasion, money laundering, RICO & MANN ACT charges
    I haven’t seen any charges filed.

    marrying children,
    I’ve seen some evidence of this.

    transporting them across state lines for sexual purposes, requiring them to have a baby a year, sexual abuse among the boys, and the women being subjugated by fear of losing their children, being sent to a house of hiding or the local mental institution they use in Arizona
    I’ve seen rumors but no evidence.

  212. And of course, you ignore my post that tells you where to find the information yourself.
    ====================================================
    I was talking to Rebechah but if you have a post that tells me the names of the women who joined the YFZ ranch along with the names and ages of the children they left behind I’ll be more then happy to look.

  213. We know you’ve heard rumors Alin, it’s just hard to see the rumors being lived when you have your eyes & mind closed to any other possibility.

    The evidence is all over this site. Why don’t you shut that yap for a moment and do some reading and then come back and discuss the issues which we would LOVE to do with someone that would do their own research and read the evidence for themselves.

  214. In fact with all the lurkers we have on the site, I can’t imagine that a few of them wouldn’t love to share their opinion.

    We would certainly welcome anyone to post. It’s ok to have your own opinion.

    If anyone would like to ask questions about the group, feel free to post and ask.

  215. The evidence is all over this site.
    ==============================================
    So show me then. It’s basically a simple question I posed to Rebechah and remember we all hate unfounded rumors. I want to see the names of the mothers who joined the YFZ ranch along with the names and ages of the children they left behind.

  216. Here is a bit of researching done:

    Ranger Kemp, One of the investigators of the YFZ ranch may be indicted for perjury.

    http://www.texasmonthly.com/2009-04-01/feature4.php

  217. Listen, I know this is a new concept an all…. but reading has been around for a long time now, and we have told you over and over, look at the reports posted, you will get all the names you could ever want.

    Seriously, my head is swimming trying to keep up with the names so do your own homework and come back and play.

    In the meantime, I will hop over to the religious discussion and see if we can round up someone to pray for you and your attitude regarding the rape victims we discuss on a daily basis here.

    Be right back.

  218. Alinusara, Ellen Grace Barlow Young Jessops children were taken from Nevada to YFZ ranch and she hadn’t seen or talked to them in 3 yrs… How’s that?

  219. Teresa Steed (underage) had a baby in June, and she has disappeared, but not before she used someone’s elses baby for DNA testing. So where is Teresa Steed and her baby?

  220. #

    Here is a bit of researching done:

    Ranger Kemp, One of the investigators of the YFZ ranch may be indicted for perjury.

    http://www.texasmonthly.com/2009-04-01/feature4.php

    Alinusara10 said this on August 17, 2009 at 3:05 PM

    Who said Mudpucky………

    People read the whole story and then make your own decision.

  221. I wonder how the Safety Net polygamy sensitivity program went today. Anybody know?

  222. I have read several other articles about Kemp’s role in that investigation and they did not remotely resemble that article. In fact, that’s the only article on the subject I’ve seen (other than Mudpucky’s) that make such a claim. It could be the lone voice or reason, then again, maybe not. I see no reason to assume that he will be indicted or that he should be.

  223. And why this sudden interest in an article from last April? April Fools, too, I might add.

  224. This is the link to the updated Safety Net committee primer
    http://attorneygeneral.utah.gov/cmsdocuments/The_Primer.pdf

    They are doing a pretty good job, glad to see the Safety Net working to help Mormon polygamists and hopefully protecting them from those who aspire to rip their families apart and destroy their lives.

  225. Betty no one seriously expects Kemp to be indicted, but that article related the facts, Kemp says he didn’t do such an interview, the defense attorney forces him to admit that he did conduct the interview. Those are the facts, what difference does it make what publication made light of this? If those are the facts, it dosn’t matter whether Texas Monthly-a highly respected magazine or a KKK journalist or even Kdee reported them.

  226. to be more specific:

    “I don’t know anything about those,” replied Kemp. “I’ve never seen them.” (He also claimed he had never seen or heard of two other interviews, also conducted in 2005.) Cassel asked him again about those August 2005 interviews at a July 30 hearing. But Cassel had in the meantime found some of Kemp’s handwritten notes that were made while watching a video of the interview. At that July 30 hearing Cassel held up the notes and asked Kemp if it was his writing. It was, said Kemp. Then Cassel revealed that the writing obviously referenced the August video. “So you watched the video from August 17, 2005, that you denied ever watching, correct?” Kemp replied, “I must have.”

    Sounds like he was caught in a a lie to me.
    I know, almost everyone here except maybe Betty, believes these absured, ridiculous and impossible charges are true but it is all the result of a sick fantasy by who knows who.

  227. “You forgot hunting wascally wabbits without a license.”

    Yes, Alin, I actually have read of at least two cases of citations for hunting out of season/without a license too.

  228. “I’m sorry but I’m not about to prove a negative. I’m sure that after the previous conversations we had about spreading unfounded rumors that you are more then willing to supply the names of the women of the YFZ ranch along with the names and ages of the children they left behind.”

    I’m not going to do your research for you. I’ve seen it and read about it on this site. It is here. If you choose to find it you are welcome to but I am not going to waste my time looking up information that I already read. Normally I actually would look it up, but in your case it’s a continual demand that other people correct your deliberate ignorance. I choose not to spend my time on that for you. Look it up or not, it’s your choice. (By the way, it isn’t “proving a negative” it is doing your own research.)

  229. “And of course, you ignore my post that tells you where to find the information yourself.”

    Which is why I maintain that Alin is deceptive and only on these blogs to sow confusion. This person doesn’t want to know the truth, only wants to waste the time of other people with continual demands to be spoonfed the truth which he/she will then turn around and claim is irrelevent anyway.

  230. Amen, Rebeckah.

  231. Just to shut the troll up, could the person who found the information about the couple who claimed to be monogamous with (I think) three boys, but she actually had other children left behind please share that information again. (If I’ve remembered enough details to trigger anyone’s memory?)

  232. Very sorry to read the news of Edson Jessop’s passing, may he rest in Peace. He was trying to get the portable furniture shop going for the internet mail order business at the YFZ Ranch established. I understood that his public exposure had made him a possible person of interest for his avowed polygamy practices. I trust his Short Creek relations are allowed to attend his services.

  233. Vancouver Sun Article.

    http://communities.canada.com/vancouversun/blogs/thinktank/archive/2009/06/30/nine-child-brides-for-polygamist-leader-winston-blackmore-police-say.aspx

    “An RCMP affidavit lists the 25 wives and 101 children of fundamentalist Mormon leader Winston Blackmore who is charged with one count of practising polygamy. The affidavit confirms that Blackmore had four brides who were 15, two who were 16 and three who were 17.”

  234. Does anyone know where the FLDS compound in Mexico is?

  235. I guess there’s Benjamin Hill in Sonora. I think there are others.

  236. Are all 4 of Edson’s wives sisters? They all seem to have been Johnson’s originally. I show Sara Louise with 15 kids, Elaine with 9, May with 5, Permelia with 9 (Some are Brighurst and some are Young and some are Jessop) and then Zavanda with 10, 6 of whom are Young and 4 are Jessop

  237. Hey FLDS Texas – do you know whether or not it is Janet Jeffs that Raymond is indicted about? Mudpuppy says that its Teresa. I thought the thing about Teresa was the bigamy charge, not sexual abuse. If I’m not mistaken he’s got one more than 1 sexual abuse of a child charge along with a bigamy charge.

  238. FLDS Texas, Richard Holm’s wives were given to HIS BROTHER Edson Holm – not Edson Jessop.

    I know … it gets confusing when the same names are used over and over.

  239. They are doing a pretty good job, glad to see the Safety Net working to help Mormon polygamists and hopefully protecting them from those who aspire to rip their families apart and destroy their lives.

    duane said this on August 17, 2009 at 9:28 PM

    Duane, the Safety Net had nothing to do with Warren’s conviction and his going to prison. The group cannot take the credit for protecting them from those who aspire to rip their families apart and destroy their lives – ya know, people like Warren.

  240. “Jeffs released Lorena Holm from her spiritual marriage of 18 years and gave her the choice of marrying her brother-in-law, Ed Holm, which she did. She said the decision to leave her husband and marry another man was a choice she made, not Jeffs.

    “Richard is quite a controlling person,” Lorena Holm said in a telephone interview. “I chose to take the steps that I did because I believe they were in the best interest of me and my children. I wasn’t forced into anything. I’m very much happy with my choice.”

    In making that choice, Lorena Holm was simply exercising her right to be placed with a faithful man according to FLDS doctrine. A third wife, Alice, who was married to Holm in 1996, chose the same path as well. “

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy187.html

    She has the right to make her own choices. Who here has the moral authority to dictate to her who she can or cannot marry or otherwise associate with?

    Bluesy, who feels obligated to try to humiliate Allen, posted some of Warren’s dicatations concerning Allen Holm and his expulsion on his blog. Now if we knew nothing about Allen Holm and why he was forced to repent, naturally you guys would assume that he was cruelly kicked out for arbitrary reasons as no details of Al’s transgressions are mentioned. But we know now he had issues with online porn, and you should also know that that kind of activity has resulted in many cases of divorce and marital discord in the “normal” world.

  241. “She has the right to make her own choices. Who here has the moral authority to dictate to her who she can or cannot marry or otherwise associate with?”

    Duane, the discussion arose because troll-Alin was fussing about “names” of women who had left children behind to go to the YFZ ranch. Changing the focus to “free choice” is yet another in a long line of your trollish attempts to deflect unpleasent truths.

    “Bluesy, who feels obligated to try to humiliate Allen, posted some of Warren’s dicatations concerning Allen Holm and his expulsion on his blog.”

    Awww, poor Pliggy. All the times he felt obligated to try and humiliate Cement/Furnace, Carolyn, Elissa, et al, they were just fine and dandy but your good buddy Pliggy should be protected from the truth of what Warren said about him? Could your double standard GET any bigger?

  242. LaughingPanfish – thanks. It is Benjamin Hill in Sonora, Mexico. And possibly one south of Tijuana. Found that info on mormonfundamentalism.com

  243. The prophet gets to decide what choices you can have to resolve your marital issues. Isn’t that just wonderful, let your church prophet make your choices for you to insure your personal life turns out for the best. A spouse doesn’t have to worry if the celestial bliss doesn’t exist you can just complain to the prophet and all your spousal concerns will just be reassigned. Isn’t the prophet just grand, by the by, whom decides the reassignment choices when the leader is indisposed by incarceration? Does WeeWillie come to make reassignment choices? I love the way an FLDS member can be apostated for a pornography problem and then after some mysterious period of worshiping from afar,”Presto, it’s a miracle the obsessive purient sexual interest has vanished”. Warren must have dreamt that he kicked his smoking habit, isn’t the prophet great!

    Does there seem to be something amiss with a church leader making personal choice selections and apostating members based upon his dreams?

  244. “Jeffs released Lorena Holm from her spiritual marriage of 18 years and gave her the choice of marrying her brother-in-law, Ed Holm, which she did. She said the decision to leave her husband and marry another man was a choice she made, not Jeffs.”

    Well, what was the choice? She is released from marriage to Richard and was given the choice ? of marring Ed?

    What was the other option Duane? She could marry Ed? or what? A choice is an opportunity to choose which path you take which signifies you were given more than one option.

    The only option I see ( I will not use choice) was that she be assigned to Ed, nothing else.

    Its not a choice when her husband is being kicked out and she stands to lose her children if she doesn’t take the next man in line for a “cookie”.

  245. I was told that people dressed like FLDS were in the Rosarita area south of Tijuana. Someone contacted me who saw them.

    When Warren was on the run from the law, one or two of his brothers were stopped on the highway going towards Tijuana. Where were they going?

  246. That’s exactly how Warren treats the men in his little cult. Like kids on the playground and if you don’t play what Warren wants you to play, no cookie, no snack, no wife, no house but by all means keep giving me your lunch money and I may let you back in our playgroup.

  247. Richard and Lorena are in a court battle right now over whether or not the teenage son can go to public school. Richard wants him in public school, but Lorena says NO. Lorena’s lawyer is none other than Rodney Parker!!! I wonder who is paying his tab.

  248. Sounds like they might have been headed to Tijuana, Anon. Thanks for the info.

  249. Warren must not have stayed on Mexico’s beaches for very long, though, or he wouldn’t have had to use tanning salons during his other travels. 🙂

  250. So deci skinwalker: perfectly OK if pliggy disses Elissa, Cement, Lamont, Carolynn, Flora, etc. However if someone says anything bad about pliggy, they are trying to humiliate pliggy and are treating him bad. What a truckload of BS thou hypocrite!!

  251. Ale Wife wasn’t there something about pliggy’s own sister being put up on the internet with pictures and current information that so angered his sister that she wasn’t speaking with him? I guess we’re just focusing on the wrongs done against a Priesthood member and not the Gentiles or apostates treatment.

  252. Yes, he visited his sister and then put up pictures of her and her boyfriend and where they actually were. He also wrote up an attack on Flora that told the story of his sister and she objected to that. I think the pictures were only up for hours or days before they were taken down.

  253. “The prophet gets to decide what choices you can have to resolve your marital issues. Isn’t that just wonderful”

    I didn’t say it was wonderful, but if that is how they want to do it, so be it. We don’t have a right to impose our personal moral code unto them. If you want to go their and “witness” to them, tell them how bad and wicked their religion is, that their leadership sucks, et al, go for it-maybe they will listen. But to attempt to cajole them by force, threaten to take their families, arrest them for bs, take their homes from them..that is way of of line and won’t work anyway.

  254. “I didn’t say it was wonderful, but if that is how they want to do it, so be it.”

    The point is that calling a non-choice a choice is a lie. There was no “choice” involved because there was no option to choose from. All she could choose from was to either obey or disobey her leadership. Since disobeying has been shown to have lost other people their families, there’s a strong argument to the idea that all she could choose between was obeying or losing her (hopefully) beloved children.

  255. Ca Jim: Yes, I recall that, but not all of the details. His (pliggy’s) sister Fawwn escaped from short creek with another girl, also named Fawn. Flora helped them when they were in AZ. As I recall, one of the Fawns went to northern Utah to live with a relative who was not in the flds. Of course pliggy had to diss Fawn because she had not kept sweet.

  256. The only person threatening to take their families, Duane, is Warren Jeff’s or their “prophet of the moment”.

    They weren’t arrested for BS, it’s called sexual abuse of children and engaging in polygamy which is against the law.

    Bruce Wisan is not trying to take their homes from them. He is trying to give them their homes.

    And cajole by force? How do you do that exactly?

    We are on here stating facts and showing the evidence to back it up, which is driving you and Pliggy nuts as well as the rest of the FLDS.

    I mean we are just explaining “lying for the lord” and “bleeding the beast” in the simplest most effective way possible, about this group. Everyone should be aware they practice what they preach. That’s the problem.

  257. “to cajole them by force, threaten to take their families, arrest them for bs, take their homes from them.”

    OK duane, who is even thinking of doing these things, let alone doing them? As usual you are ascribing motives, thoughts and actions to other people; then you lambaste those people for the things you wrote about them. Note: None of us can arrest them, only LE can do that. LE can only do that if the plygs have committed crimes. This is just more BS from you, just like the scantily clad rock throwing flds apostates in short creek. ROFLMAO. At least you are good for a laugh now and then.

  258. Marrying a minor, statutory rape and bigamy are major felonies not ‘bs’ but your the FLDS sect tour guide and marketing expert not me. The laws aren’t written to cajole anybody and the Grand Jury doesn’t indict for ‘bs’ charges. Why all the propaganda and claims that most of the FLDS members are innocent. If they have nothing to hide they wouldn’t need hideouts behind twin fences and a guard tower. We see right through their phoney facades and intentional factless claims, your the one enveloped in their propaganda and the true believer. How’s your libertarian ideales holding up when applied to a ‘One Man Rule’ fanatical sect? Having some difficulty proving that the government is at fault by all the crime spree and multiple law violations by just one fundamentalist group. How come the AUB and Kingston groups aren’t being arrested, prosecuted and brought to trial?
    How is it that the LDS Church is completely removed from this fracas and your battling for these excommunicated fundamentalists unlawful acts?
    Maybe you need to review the facts and find the truth so you stop deluding yourself that your in the right.

  259. “We don’t have a right to impose our personal moral code unto them. ”

    Duane, first you say she had a choice, then when someone proves that she didn’t really have a choice, you don’t acknowledge that you were wrong, you just take off on another topic – our alleged lack of sensitivity to diversity.

    Go sell crazy somewhere else, we’re all stocked up!

  260. Who was Ross W. LeBaron Jr’s father? Was it Ervil, Joel or Verlan? Anyone know?

  261. “Marrying a minor, statutory rape and bigamy are major felonies”

    Yeah I know, I wasn’t talking about any crimes other than polygamy, but the basic principle of how they run things i.e. the “prophet system”. At any rate if you are referring to Warren, he is in jail and to keep discussing all of his exings as if they are still taking place is meaningless-that is in the past.

    “There was no “choice” involved because there was no option to choose from.”

    Yes, there is choice, she can choose to leave. In this case if she chose to go with Richard Holm who was exed, she would have been able to take her children with her and no custody issues since they would be with both parents…duhhhh!! If a woman wants to leave the sect altogether like Carolyn Jessop, she has that choice and she can go to court to gain custody of her children, just like what happens everyday in the real world when couples divorce.

  262. Wait, I asked that incorrectly, didn’t want jr.’s father, wanted the other one. I found it.

  263. Right, duane, only Carolyn had to ESCAPE in the middle of the night in a car with no gas and no legal tags and WITH NO MONEY.

    And Carolyn has custody of her children, Betty chose to go back. Carolyn is just asking for help in supporting her children.

    They are not allowed to leave, their is no choice and if their is, then where in the world is Ruby?

  264. “There was no “choice” involved because there was no option to choose from. All she could choose from was to either obey or disobey her leadership.”

    If she chose to leave, then she would still be with her original husband and they would of course have custody of the kids.

    They have choices, they can choose to leave and if their family and prophet decide to shun them-that is their choice as well.

  265. Probably that’s why Carolyn called the book “Escape”, ya know, cause she had to

    ESCAPE.

  266. duane wants to simply ignore the fact that his flds heros have committed and are probably still committing major felonies. duane appropriately named himself skinwalker since skinwalkers also practice deceit.

  267. Just because a choice may be difficult, it still doesn’t make it “not really” a choice. We all have to make difficult choices from time to time. If I decide to leave my wife and her family-many of whom I’m close to, shuns me, does that mean my choice to leave her is “not really” a choice? Of course not!!
    It seems to me that your definition of a choice depends on whether it is difficult or not. Choices are often hard but they are still choices.

  268. Plenty of children have been handed over to the prophet for any variety of reasons they can come up with.

    There was absolutely no guarantee that they would have kept the kids. Richard could have wanted back in the group bad enough, he might have been willing to give the kids to be raised by the group, certainly because the men get kicked out doesn’t mean they still don’t obey every word Warren asks, to convince the prophet to let them back in.

    Only a few men manage to wise up and let go.

  269. But choices should never be ruled by fear.

  270. duane, what you are doing does not even remotely resemble logical argument.

  271. “How’s your libertarian ideales holding up when applied to a ‘One Man Rule’ fanatical sect”

    If someone tries to leave N.Korea they are imprisoned and often shot…they have no choice.

    In the FLDS not only are they free to leave but are set for life if they choose to do the talk show circuit and write a book

  272. duane, Carolyn Jessop has 8 children, one with debilitating disesase. Merril blamed Carolyn because the boy was born with cancer. He didn’t want him to live. Now you tell me, WHO should have been kicked out???
    Carolyn Jessop got custody of her children, and now she is suing for child support. Yes, she got out, she had good reason to get out.
    Elaine Jeffs, (Warren’s sister) testified she knew on baby who was born deformed and it was drown.
    Now duane, THINK!!!!! for once in your life and quit being a durd!

  273. CORRECTED POST FROM YESTERDAY:

    Edson Jessop:

    Zavenda Jessop is one mother who left her minor children in Short Creek when she was called to Zion/Texas after being reassigned to Edson Jessop. Zavenda and Edson spoke of their three or five or however many childen, but Zavenda left an entire family back at the creek because they apparently weren’t worthy for Zion. Edson Jessop was the architect Of the YFZ Temple.

    Edson Holm:

    Speaking of Edsons — Edson Holm dropped dead of a coronary last week and was buried in Short Creek although I’ve seen no mention in news or blogs. Edson was also reassigned Richard Holms’ wives when he was kicked out a few years ago. He fought for his kids in court and has court ordered visitation but you know how that goes — they make it impossible for him to actually have visitation and poison the kids’ minds against their father. Now that new daddy is dead, maybe it’s time for Richard to seek full custody of those kids.

  274. duane–good grief–sure they have a choice. The choice is they can leave and leave their children behind. Do you really believe those pot-bellied men are going to allow one of their wives to leave with a car load of her children? Of course not!!!
    Besides leaving your children behind–you no longer have any contact with any members of your family–you are history–they never want to see or hear of you again. So–choice?? What kind of choice is that?
    Perhaps if they opened the door and told the wives they could leave–with their babies in tow–more of the ladies would leave??? That’s never gonna happen.

    hmmm…so–as I understand–Edson passed away? Wonder who his wives will be assigned to? And, as I recall–he had other children and wives back at the crik…

  275. ohh..I see now–another Edson!!! pardon me..I get all of these people confused.

  276. Here’s your prophet selected choice you can have the color, for an example, white, gray or red. He knows you want yellow and would settle for blue but those are not offered. Did you get a choice? Did you pick red, gray or white? Is this choice then really yours or did somebody else choose the color(s)? Now do you grasp the point, if your choice wasn’t between yellow and blue, you didn’t really even get to make your choice, someone else chose for you, Duh.

    The new ‘Lands of Refuge’ are decidedly different from the Short Creek neighborhood. They are hundreds to thousand miles away from that location on secured property(s) behind enclosed security and secluded neighboring communities. Do you honestly believe that FLDS residents can leave? Just how gullible and dumb are you?

  277. Reminds me of the samurai tradition in which the leader asks them to commit seppuku. The implied choice is kill yourself or let us kill you. And, like the women in Short Creek, it’s a long way to a bus station.

  278. Oh, jobo, I do love that pot-bellied men comment.

  279. You know, Duane is right. Saying that the African’s sold into slavery didn’t have a “choice” to be slaves is just silly. Of course they had a choice. Like others who refused to “choose” slavery they could have resisted, rebelled, run away and refused and been beaten to death or worse. Silly me, all this time I thought that they were FORCED into slavery.

  280. “If someone tries to leave N.Korea they are imprisoned and often shot…they have no choice.”

    Of course they have a choice — they can choose to be citizens of N. Korea or die or be in prison. Just because it’s a difficult choice doesn’t mean it’s not a choice — right, Duane?

  281. “In the FLDS not only are they free to leave”

    You don’t actually know that, Duane, you just know what Pliggy, a man who, like you, has been caught being deceptive, has told you.

    “but are set for life if they choose to do the talk show circuit and write a book”

    Are they really? Got any figures to back that up? Is Carolyn now living in a mansion with a swimming pool and servants?

  282. And so what duane if Caroyln has a million dollar house; servents; etc. Do you remember when she did not know what or how she was going to feed her kids?
    She even had that worry when she was still in flds..remember??? Merill and Babs ran off to Vegas and had steak dinners while the other wives were left without any groceries. Carolyn made up some kind of oatmesl stuff…to feed all those kids. Do you think for one minute Merill and Babs were concerned about the women and children left at home? So–she deserves every bit of comfort; she’s free at last!!

  283. The royalties on writing a book are not big by any standards, much less for someone who had never written a book before. She didn’t get rich off it, but hopefully it helped in some small way.

    Cathleen and Tammi were equally shocked by the way Merril treated his wives and children by NOT providing for them. I distinctly remember Carolyn stating one time it took all of them (Carolyn, Tammi & Cathleen) standing up to Merril regarding the lack of money for food & necessities. Carolyn stated after that sometimes they received enough money and sometimes they did not.

    So much for that happy polygamous family, huh, Duane?

  284. Duane is right. It just doesn’t matter how many oppose the truth, and attack, attack, attack, and their name is legion. Right remains.

  285. Can we finally relegate duane to the juvenile section and have a discussion amongst the adults?

  286. Edson and Zavenda went on NATIONAL TV talking about their 3 boys on two different syndicated networks, the third Network, they talked about their 3 boys and their daughter.
    Zavenda, left her peon family back in Short Creek to become one of the eilte…. She should be Ashamed!!!

  287. I think what’s important to realize is that no woman would put herself or her children through all of that without believing that their eternal salvation is at stake or she is emotionally damaged herself.

    Before I would let any man ignore the basic needs of me and my children, I would most certainly take control, prioritize and do something about the situation which is exactly what Carolyn did.

    I think she showed such courage that it’s hard to verbalize it.

    I do know she will ALWAYS have our respect and admiration.

  288. Duane is right in the middle of defending a Theocracy, but he’s wrong about how our laws are enforced. Duane is right in defending the wrongs spread by a fundamentalist sect that has spread from Utah like some H1N1 Flu virus. Keep the EVIL Empire perspective alive otherwise your rights all become wrongs and the trials will serve to prove that Justice has been served.

  289. true mississippigirl–I sooo admire that lady; and she is a real lady. She stood up to Mr. Wonderful and she’s still doing it. It’s too bad some or most of the other ladies don’t have the backbone that she does. You would think they could learn something from her, instead, they run her down like she’s a dog.
    hmmm…when is the child support case coming up? hahahahaha…

  290. yep–deputydog–makes ya wonder how that Zavenda lady could do that? and–I think Edson left some wives and children behind–as I recall????

  291. “So much for that happy polygamous family”

    You can say the same thing about a monogamist family. Some are dysfunctional, others not so much, others just as happy as the “happiest” monig family.

    “Duane is right in defending the wrongs spread by a fundamentalist sect that has spread from Utah like some H1N1 Flu virus”

    No doubt you are buddies with Buster.

    Do you honestly believe that FLDS residents can leave?

    How many calls have been received at the number given to the girls by CPS? We know that cell phones are a dime a dozen at YFZ.

  292. How can you even sleep at night knowing you left some/all of your children behind? You carried them for 9 months and then they get tossed to the wind if they don’t behave well enough or if they don’t come from the “right wife”.

    If their children are their most precious commodities, why leave them behind?

    I hope all those women go to sleep at night with the hurt little faces of their own children left behind, haunting them.

    I can just imagine how a child is going to justify being left behind, and that is a large part of the problem with this group.

    They leave wives behind & their children behind, what else is there?

  293. Yes, but monogamist families are not breaking the law by having just one husband and one wife.

    It gets a little tricky when you try and have a harem of women in your house, have babies by them, don’t adequately support them in any way, financially or emotionally.

    Those girls have been conditioned from birth to not tell, don’t call, don’t protest, do what we say & above all “keep sweet.”

    That’s why they don’t call. Duane.

  294. Street / Delete

  295. “How can you even sleep at night knowing you left some/all of your children behind? You carried them for 9 months and then they get tossed to the wind if they don’t behave well enough or if they don’t come from the “right wife”.

    If their children are their most precious commodities, why leave them behind?”

    When I finally left my husband he intercepted the Greyhound bus we were on and grabbed my daughter off of the bus and took off with her. I got off the bus and returned to the city where we had lived. I didn’t return to him (in fact my son and I lived in a Salvation Army shelter for two months until I got custody of my daughter back) but I wasn’t going anywhere without my baby. I find it incredibly hard to understand women who can leave their children to anyone else. (Heck, I find it hard to allow anyone to take care of my pets!)

  296. duane first you defend swinger clubs, where married couples go and screw with other couples for an entire weekend, then go home to their children… NASTY duane NASTY!!!Shit!
    Then you defend Polygamist who do exactly the same thing, only they call it celestial marriage and hump little girls underage, then go back and hump the first wife who is in her 50’s… NASTY, duane NASTY!!!

  297. Your really one sick deranged dude huh duane?

  298. street? Nah. To concise.

    No, we are NOT thunderstruck by how logical duane is. Far from it. He’s a shill whenever he’s not being a troll.

  299. Rebeckah,

    When people are prevented, or are simply incapable of proper human bonding they can do this.

    The consequences are hard to live through later.

    FLDS women are given less than a week to grieve for any child who dies. To grieve longer is considered selfish and a failure to “Keep Sweet”.

    That’s one of the reasons the cemetery grabbed my heart. I am the mother of a dead child. I have buried one. It was the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life and you might as well have buried me with him for the first two years, for all the good I was.

    Then, years later, when I stood in that baby cemetery and looked all around me at how there was absolutely no way out of that town, for any child like Flora or Elissa, and I knew women were not allowed to weep for their dead children for any length of time, how could I walk away and say, “Oh well, I’m sure most of them are really happy and chose this for themselves.”

  300. Duane said: Just because a choice may be difficult, it still doesn’t make it “not really” a choice. We all have to make difficult choices from time to time. If I decide to leave my wife and her family-many of whom I’m close to, shuns me, does that mean my choice to leave her is “not really” a choice? Of course not!!
    It seems to me that your definition of a choice depends on whether it is difficult or not. Choices are often hard but they are still choices.
    ____________________
    Hey Duane for the very first time I actually agree with a portion of what you said.

    But…..on the slippery slope analogy:

    most of us do not face life and death choices (or salvation and damnation) choices in our lives. Very few of us have to jump off the lifeboat in order to make room somebody else. The kind of choice that people who are indoctrinated make is literally jump the lifeboat or not.

    It seems to me that so few of us face that situation that to call it a “choice” in the common use of the word is not really accurate.

    So…..bottom line – I still think you are wrong

  301. #

    “How’s your libertarian ideales holding up when applied to a ‘One Man Rule’ fanatical sect”

    If someone tries to leave N.Korea they are imprisoned and often shot…they have no choice.

    In the FLDS not only are they free to leave but are set for life if they choose to do the talk show circuit and write a book

    duane said this on August 18, 2009 at 1:26 PM
    ___________
    According to the arguments you just made leaving North Korea should also just be a run of the mill choice.
    You can not have it both ways

  302. I think duane does drive-bys!!!LOL just to stir the pot!

  303. Boots, Im so sorry you lost a child!! My God, I never want to imagine that happening in my life!!!

  304. If someone tries to leave N.Korea they are imprisoned and often shot…they have no choice.

    =========================
    If a religion is allowed to get fanatical enough, it can lead to this. Think LeBaron. And isn’t breaking up a family of one trying to leave almost as bad as being shot. And what about men who committed suicide after their family was broken up? Breaking up a family is just one step short of shooting someone, and probably meaner.

  305. I can name a man whose wife told him she would stay with him if he left, so he left, and a whole bunch of “holy women” convinced here to leave her husband. We all have choices, alright, and I am exercising my choice to speak out against coercion. And I am exercising my first amendment rights to state “anyone who tries to break up another family in the name of religion is lower than cockroach dung.”

  306. And what husband wouldn’t be outraged if someone seduced their wife behind their back and the offending man states “she had a choice.” That still doesn’t make the offending man loathe-worthy.

  307. Oops–That was supposed to state “The offending man is still loathe-worthy.”

  308. As I recall, Cement, at least two of the founding fathers of the LDS found out just how outraged some men get when another man seduces their wife from behind his back. Both of them didn’t get to teach that lesson to others, though, as it was rather fatal. 😀

  309. I think cement slams the idea of choice proposed by duh-wayne better than all the rest of us.

  310. HHG I agree solid as concrete as far as any observer statement can go, well said cement.

  311. That’s because Cement has had the joy of living the FLDS version of “choice” so he knows with great intimacy just how much it isn’t a “choice”. It’s probably based on the Mormon ideal of “free agency” which, to me, pretty much translates to “You’re free to choose to do what I say or be destroyed — angel with a flaming sword is optional.”

  312. Alinusara, Ellen Grace Barlow Young Jessops children were taken from Nevada to YFZ ranch and she hadn’t seen or talked to them in 3 yrs… How’s that?
    ==========================================================
    Thanks. However that doesn’t address the issue. I was looking for the name of a mother who joined the YFZ ranch along with the names and ages of the children she left behind.

  313. Just because a choice may be difficult, it still doesn’t make it “not really” a choice. We all have to make difficult choices from time to time. If I decide to leave my wife and her family-many of whom I’m close to, shuns me, does that mean my choice to leave her is “not really” a choice? Of course not!!
    ====================================================
    So true. If I was to marry an African-American woman against the wishes of many of my friends and family and my same friends and family shun me due to the choices I made then we both made choices however unpleasant it may be.

  314. “I was looking for the name of a mother who joined the YFZ ranch along with the names and ages of the children she left behind.”

    It really not our problem that you’re too lazy to do your own research. If you want to know, find it out for yourself.

    “So true. If I was to marry an African-American woman against the wishes of many of my friends and family and my same friends and family shun me due to the choices I made then we both made choices however unpleasant it may be.”

    Like I said, slaves clearly CHOSE to be slaves. All they had to do instead was choose a horrible, painful death and they would have never been slaves. And native Americans CHOSE to be herded onto reservations. Wow, it’s just amazing all the choices that are out there when you discount intimidation, coercion, and manipulation.

  315. And I am exercising my first amendment rights to state “anyone who tries to break up another family in the name of religion is lower than cockroach dung.”
    =================================================
    Aye. I agree, expecially when it comes to a “Pervasive pattern of belief”.

  316. Like I said, slaves clearly CHOSE to be slaves. All they had to do instead was choose a horrible, painful death and they would have never been slaves. And native Americans CHOSE to be herded onto reservations. Wow, it’s just amazing all the choices that are out there when you discount intimidation, coercion, and manipulation.
    =======================================================
    None of these arguments have absolutely anything to do with marrying an African American woman.

  317. Alin, your analogy is not aplicable to being forced to sleep with and bear the children of a man you are assigned to who might be not only not to your taste but abusive. Perhaps a better analogy would be if your option was to work your whole life for you uncle at 1/5 the going rate, while he occassionally beat you, or walk on down the road alone and make your own way among strangers. And, even then, we are discounting the issue of taking or leaving your own children.

  318. And then there is the issue that you chose friends who would shun you if you married an African American woman, but somehow that does not shock me.

  319. And then there is the issue that you chose friends who would shun you if you married an African American woman, but somehow that does not shock me.
    ==================================================
    Hehe! I can chose my friends but I certainly cannot chose my family.

  320. Always these “out in the sky” comparison’s from Alin that have no bearing on girls being forced to marry against their will, having no choice in who they marry, having no choice in how many kids they will bear, having no choice to further their education, generally no choice at all except which color prairie dress to wear that day.

    You choose to marry an African-American, you have the right, they do that and they are told they will be participating in “blood atonement” and they won’t be the ones standing on the sidelines.

    You COULD make the choice, they are given NO choice, so your comparison does not work.

  321. Alin – do you follow the Texas Polygamy blog? Ruth Cooke posts there and in her most recent posts she touches on the issue of choice. Her choice have been these:

    return to her abusive husband
    be placed in a mental health facility
    leave the community
    stay and be shunned

    https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=11081631&postID=3356816963415756653&isPopup=true

    She was put in a mental facility for some time. At some point later she left the community for a while, and was homeless and living in a tent in my town. She was often seen walking the streets in her prairie style clothing, and referred to herself as “walking woman”. Unfortunately, none of us knew how to help her and she returned back to the Short Creek area.

    Ruth was not the only woman placed in a mental facility. Her sister Laurene was also hospitalized and it’s been reported that other women have been as well.

    So much for choice.

  322. Alin is also ignoring the mentally impaired women who have been abused by being married off and pushed into sexual relationships and motherhood. But Heavenly Father just loooooves these women, right FLDS?

    “None of these arguments have absolutely anything to do with marrying an African American woman.”

    None of your arguments compare to the social, emotional, financial and religious coercion the FLDS women go through either. So why should I follow your insane and constantly changing “rules” for examples?

  323. I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that alin is just shilling and trolling. Therefore the best thing to do would be to totally ignore her. Too bad this blog does not have an ignore feature, guess I will just have to scroll rapidly through her/his/it’s carp and go down to the next post.

  324. Ale Wife, I’d go for that but Alin is very careful to make its posts sound as reasonable as possible. I simply can’t allow such manipulative psudo-logic to go unanswered. It would be like endorsing that garbage and its just so very, very twisted. Sorry.

  325. That is the nice thing about being able to make our own choices.
    You can respond to alin your way and I will do it my way.
    Really unfortunate that many of the girls and boys in the mormon fundie polygamy groups do not have the freedom to even choose who and when they will wed. I feel so bad for them.

  326. I would love to ignore too, Ale wife, but like Rebeckah, I have no problem in showing it the “flaws” in it’s thinking.

    I may be from Mississippi, but I wasn’t born on a “green bean truck”. 🙂 and I can argue with a stump, anytime, anywhere.

  327. Ale Wife, I think that your desire is admirable. Sometimes I feel frustrated by my inability to ignore deliberate stupidity. But I am me. 😉

    So please don’t think that I have any negative feelings about your decision on how to handle Alin — you are doing what is right for you. :thumbs up:

  328. We all know those few boring children who gleefully push around those goalpost-on-wheels, don’t we! There’s cupcake, petunia, julieboy, doofus

  329. Isn’t it just wonderful that we have the Priesthood graces of Alinusara to tell us the really big half truths and ouright falsehoods of the FLDS Church. Thanks for sharing Alin this way we know that our blog means so much to you and that your definitely loosing the Public opinion and Press coverage battle over all the misinformation you readily offer. Keep posting your propaganda for everyone to see the lost reasoning and implausible accuracy of your positions.

  330. “can name a man whose wife told him she would stay with him if he left, so he left, and a whole bunch of “holy women” convinced here to leave her husband”

    “And what husband wouldn’t be outraged if someone seduced their wife behind their back and the offending man states “she had a choice.”

    Dang Cement, that really sucked for those dudes. Yep, I’m sure the 10,000 member FLDS has its share of dirtbags.

    ONe of my co-workers freely shares with us that he screws around on his wife, I ask him what would he do if he caught his wife doing that, he says that he would probably divorce her. I ask is that not being hypocritical since you are doing exactly that? If he busted his wife having an affair I would be sorely tempted to rat him out to her.

    I knew a girl who seduced her best friend’s boyfriend behind her back, others who brag about their extra marital dalliances…yep these types of folks are everywhere.

  331. Mohave County Supervisor Buster Johnson on KNTR’s Speak Out show, with Paul Lavoie, yesterday.

    I thought his comments on who should be handling the prosecution of Warren Jeffs were interesting. Comments start aprox 4 minutes into the mp3 of the interview.

    http://www.kntram.com/kntr-am-speak-out
    Can be found at: files/8-18-09 – HOUR 2 PART 2.mp3

  332. Well duane deci, Your post about the type of people you associate with explains why you champion the free wheeling, able to have sex with many different women flds male leaders. You probably wish you could do the same. Too bad your wife won’t let you, LOL.

  333. Alinusara

    “Just because a choice may be difficult, it still doesn’t make it “not really” a choice. We all have to make difficult choices from time to time. If I decide to leave my wife and her family-many of whom I’m close to, shuns me, does that mean my choice to leave her is “not really” a choice? Of course not!!
    ====================================================

    So true. If I was to marry an African-American woman against the wishes of many of my friends and family and my same friends and family shun me due to the choices I made then we both made choices however unpleasant it may be.”

    ———————–

    Wow – There ya go folks, a racist remark hidden in a comment.

    Why, of course Alinusara couldnt do such a thing – his Aryan brotherhood would disown him.

    Cant have THAT!!

  334. duane

    “Dang Cement, that really sucked for those dudes. Yep, I’m sure the 10,000 member FLDS has its share of dirtbags.”

    More than you admit to duane. YFZ “had” a high percentage, huh?

    Well, there will be quite a few less dirtbags once they start serving.

  335. duane said “I knew a girl who seduced her best friend’s boyfriend behind her back, others who brag about their extra marital dalliances…yep these types of folks are everywhere.”

    Yeah, but how many of them said they did it because they were instructed to by God and thus they are right and the best friend is wrong? Well, check out Mormon fundies, cause that’s what we’re talking about!

  336. “Wow – There ya go folks, a racist remark hidden in a comment.”

    Yeah, Stamp, I noticed that. If I were to try to think of something that would get me shunned by my friends and family, that is not what would spring to MY mind.

  337. So true. If I was to marry an African-American woman against the wishes of many of my friends and family and my same friends and family shun me due to the choices I made then we both made choices however unpleasant it may be.

    I don’t know Stamp – I don’t see that as racist.

    I was on a board the other day and one of Duane’s polyamorous buddies was griping because her parents wouldn’t accept her other male mate. She was saying how she was going to give them an ultimatum or accept it or else. I was highly unsympathetic to the person trying to change their parent.

    We make choices and they have consequences. That’ really what Karma is about.

  338. Betty

    That speaks volumns about the caliber of people duane works with doesnt it?

    What kind of atmosphere would lend itself to such bloviating and misbehavior?

    Six guys in a basement?

  339. Ron,

    To me, Alinusara “was” racist, in his example. He was showing that this is something extremely taboo in his circle. Yeah, like his Aryan nation circles. He got a “twofer” by acknowledging the “choices” point while showing his dark side.

    Bet Morris Dees has his group tagged. JMHO

  340. OBTW

    Ron, you have been following this a while, have you heard Warrens racist tapes? Alinusara is a defender of everything FLDS – to me this is just another FLDS / polygamist endorsement.

    Wonder if he is into pure seed too, like Ross Lebaron, y’know, just keep it all in the family, your gandchildren are your children too?

  341. Well, Alin might not have been racist, but he’s sure that his friends and family are. Do with that what you will.

  342. Boots

    That wasn’t a direct shot at Matt Smith but it was pretty close. It does make me wonder about Mohave County politics.

  343. I don’t know, I was more fascinated by the idea that my county might be checking up on building permits using google earth.

    I’m telling you the stuff they are putting me through over a rebuild of an existing deck….no permit is tempting. I wonder if they could see that from a satelite.

  344. I guess the thing that offends me is when people minimize crap with “they had a choice.” It’s OK to seduce my neighbor’s wife because she can always say no. It’s OK to marry 12 year olds because she can always say no. These men aren’t bad men because the victims had the right to say no.

  345. Well, said, cement. I feel the same righteous anger.

  346. Alin’s friends being racists may explain why he/it goes to such great lenghts to support the racist flds. So duane associates with adulterers and fornicators, alin associates with racists. If people of this ilk are the best supporters the flds have–the flds are holding a busted flush in a high stakes game.

  347. cement

    Ditto. Elissa told Warren her choice and Warren said “NO”.

    It was a very expensive “NO”..!!

  348. “It’s OK to seduce my neighbor’s wife because she can always say no.”

    It is not ok to do this, not at all and people who do such things are slime but it is not something that should be criminalized.

    As far as marrying 12 year olds, no one except perhaps JL approves of that.

    Cement, who seduced your neighbor’s wife? Are you referring to some shenanigans committed by frisky flds folk? If so, more proof that they are “normal” people. That kind of crap is common in the “gentile” world.

    If I caught my wife with another guy and assuming he wasn’t my buddy, I would have a helluva lot more to say to her than him.

  349. PS

    I thought about it, I just wonder if Fred Jessop, who recommended his step daughter Elissa be married to Allan, wasnt a set up.

    What were his reasons?

    1) to get at Elissa, as he may well have known she dispised Allan?

    2) to just get rid of her (but why young Allan?)

    3) to test Warrens powers, knowing a cat fight would ensue?

    I tend to think the latter could have been it. Fred was eventually exiled by Warren, but in the end Fred got Warren in spades.

  350. What Cement said… 😀

  351. I think more people than JL approve of marriage with 12 year olds, people like warren jeffs, barbara jessop, merril jessop.

  352. Tony Alamo, Green, I bet even old Joe would have gon for one of today’s 12 year olds if he’d thought he could get away with it.

  353. Cement,

    Do you know who Ruth is on the “Banking on Heaven” documentary? What is the story behind her, if you don’t mind saying. She states that her husband killed 2 of her children, I believe they may have been handicapped in some way?

    She was living on the outskirts of town it seemed.

  354. Stamp,

    When I read her book it seemed that Warren approved of the marriage. Elissa objected and got an interview with Rulon who told her to follow her heart. She took this to mean that she was being given a reprieve however, Warren quickly told her that she was still going to marry Allan.

    I am not sure she ever states WHY she thought Fred arranged it, but I felt like Fred did it to get to Elissa. I think she had a rep for being spunky and Fred intended the marriage to solve that.

    🙂 just my humble opinion.

  355. I think the Ruth you are thinking of is Ruth Cook.

    http://www.religionnewsblog.com/21629/flds-enforcers-2

    “Ruth Cooke
    • A “wild card” who is “blindly devoted to Warren and the FLDS religion.”
    • “We reviewed countless letters she had sent to Warren that confirmed her unstable behavior, as she talked of disturbing visions she had received and breaking down the prison walls in the name of the prophet.”
    • “She is just the kind of person who may be capable of doing something crazy, but justified in her head.”

  356. Ruth Cook was in Laurie’s movie.

    One of the people Laurie Allen features in her movie is FLDS member Ruth Cooke. a confused and troubled woman whom we have heard of before:
    “Utah police also warned Texas officials of so-called “wild cards” or “religious fanatics,” including Ruth Cooke, a woman police said is “blindly devoted to Warren and the FLDS religion,” according to the dossiers.

    “She is just the kind of person who may be capable of doing something crazy but justified in her head,” the dossiers state.”

  357. No one. I just got a call from her at work and abandoned a power plant (which was against all rules as an operator) because she was ordered to be removed from me. I took her to a friend’s house for a while. I know others whose wife did leave them behind their back–they came home to find a wife gone and with another man. Although I am glad that didn’t happen to me, it irks me that people will defend those doing such things, and it irks me there was an attempt made. I am glad she was firm enough that it didn’t take long to leave her alone, but I still feel that even prostitutes have more morality than someone who will attempt a family breakup in God’s name.

    My personal prediction is not pretty. The FLDS don’t have anything to worry about from me as far as “an angry apostate stirring up trouble.” The most I ever do is post a little on the internet, and refuse to leave a house. The people they have to worry about is those that were 5 years old when daddy didn’t come home and they never see him again; when these children become teenagers, watch out! Hope we don’t have FLDS law enforcement when that happens, because domestic violence on both sides may get ugly. Hope we have some impartial L.E.

  358. Is the part she (Ruth Cook) states about her children true?

    That they were killed by her husband ?

  359. I don’t know. Even when I was in the religion, I kept my nose to the grindstone and didn’t know what was going on.

  360. It’s absolutely horrible those kids are going to grow up having never seen their daddy again, and since the moms are switched around too, I can only imagine how hurt they will be and growing up with that hurt will affect them greatly, I am sorry to say.

    I thinks its a VERY valid point regarding when they turn into teen-agers.

  361. I don’t know how many children Ruth Cooke had. She says One little girl that died. Ruth’s husband and Sam Barlow had her locked up flagstaff in the mental ward several times. There are several men Ruth Hates. Actually other than Warren she probably hates most men. Ruth swears Warren was the only one who was ever nice to her. She is a sad person for sure. She was arrested last year for trying to see her children. A protective order was put on her by her xhusband.

    You cannot expect to just GIVE women to any man, and expect her to love them. I understand FLDS considers it “duty” to obey this rule, but it’s just damn stupid!! Hell I don’t blame Elissa Wall for what she did, she fell in love with a man she CHOSE! She never chose Allen Steed, and she told anyone who would listen she DIDN’T want to marry him!!!

  362. It all goes back to the fact,,, regardless what Brooke Adams says, or Centinnel Parks says, or the Safety net says.. In FLDS, everyone “BELONGS to the PROPHET!!!””

  363. And if an FLDS sayn NO to the Prophet,He’s OUTTA THERE!! Apostate!!

  364. DD,

    You cannot forget or deny the pain the polygamist culture has left on men either.

    Cement is right about coming domestic violence. The truth is there has always been domestic violence present, whether physical or emotional and mental.

    Someday one of these girls who got a taste of the outside world, here in Texas, will want something better, and badly enough to make a break. Some day.

    Someday, like Joseph Rohbock did, one of those young men is going to have had enough, and he will want to go fishing again…Because the only time he ever got to do that, in his whole life, was when he was in the custody of the Texas People.

  365. Ron,

    I’m sure he’d be happy to answer any questions you might have the next time he is on the KNTR Speak Out Show with Paul Lavoie.

    He is usually on there at least once a month, and that is always listed on their online monthy calendar.

    His base of support comes mostly from the greater Havasu area, which is mostly transplanted Californians. They are the only major city in the county, which is the 5th largest county in the country, to stand up and say, “EEwwww” to the FLDS.

    It is one of the major reasons Buster is always re-elected. They are actually *trying* to correct the problem, every time they vote for him.

    Like I said, I ended up with way more Californian friends than I ever imagined I would have.

    Lake Havasu City is awesome. They never did get me to try a fish taco but I did enjoy dining with views of the London Bridge and beautiful beaches on the blue waters of the Colorado River, running through the Mohave Dessert, and learning to love some very wonderful people.

    Feel free to call in and ask questions if you like.

  366. I recall some good old days back in the 60s on Havasu, a club out over the lake that you got to through the rez.

  367. Good grief, GrannyToad, the town was like an infant abandoned in the desert back then. The bridge wasn’t even up…just the “promise” of it, lol.

    Was it as sexy a town back then as it is today?

    Martinis and Jazz on the bay….ahhh.

  368. Nah no town. Tribal cops were cool but don’t mess with ’em. Yep, no bridge. Sexy? Ohhhh who knows. I ain’t tellin’ nuthin’. It was rock ‘nm roll back in the day.

  369. Ha ha, you answered my question like a true lady. Tell’em nuthin’.

    You should be a Sweet Potato Queen, if you aren’t already;)

  370. Well Well, seems Utah is under the gun now for “Fraudulent Medicaid ” payouts according to Auditors of Utah State Medicaid program
    http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13152189

  371. Alin wrote: “So true. If I was to marry an African-American woman against the wishes of many of my friends and family and my same friends and family shun me due to the choices I made then we both made choices however unpleasant it may be.”

    Hate to break it to you, honey, but you ain’t even gonna get a phone number.

    But I’m confused. I could have sworn you said you were a woman.

  372. Cement wrote: “The people they have to worry about is those that were 5 years old when daddy didn’t come home and they never see him again; when these children become teenagers, watch out! Hope we don’t have FLDS law enforcement when that happens, because domestic violence on both sides may get ugly. Hope we have some impartial LE.”

    There was a murder trial here recently and our paper published a note from the killer’s diary. It had all the pitiable hallmarks of stunted character—he blamed others for his problems, he raged, he had an exaggerated sense of his own worth and little respect for others.

    He killed four women acquaintances he blamed for ruining his life.

    So my worry is similar to yours.

  373. WOW, DD. I’m shocked.

  374. Cement is right about coming domestic violence.

    The War is Coming!

  375. Shunning, or meidung means expulsion from the Amish community for breaching religious guidelines — including marrying outside the faith. The practice of shunning is the main reason that the Amish broke away from the Mennonites in 1693. When an individual is subject to meidung, it means they have to leave their friends, family and lives behind. All communication and contact is cut off, even among family members. Shunning is serious, and usually considered a last resort after repeated warnings.
    http://pittsburgh.about.com/cs/pennsylvania/a/amish_3.htm

    Again, the Amish get a pass while the FLDS are roasted over the fire.

    Cement, I fully sympathize with you over the attempts to keep your wife in the fold. FYI, this practice is common in insular groups who view outsiders with a deep suspicion. In the case of the FLDS, they have some damned good reasons to be wary as many activists have made no bones about their ultimate goal of exterminating the FLDS faith.
    NO doubt they were very distraught when you left as well. They are under great stress right now and feel like they are under siege. When you left they probably felt like a brother betrayed them and didn’t want to lose a sister. I don’t agree with the practice of “shunning” nor going behind your back to keep your wife in the fold but such behavior is typical of human nature as it applies to minority groups who percieve themselves to be under assault.

  376. duane said: “many activists have made no bones about their ultimate goal of exterminating the FLDS faith.”
    Yet another broad brush condemnation of a large group of people with no references or identification of what activists skinwalker refers to. Just more along the line of the “rock throwing scantily clad apostates in shurt crick” or the “pitchfork carrying towns people in Colorado.”. LOL

  377. Oh, Lord please have mercy, not the Amish thing again?!? Do you have an index card file of stupid apologetics or something?

    Rumbles through file, pulls out card. Says “Well, it’s been awhile since the Amish red herring, let’s try that. That will keep them from talking about anything productive for awhile. “

  378. “The War is Coming!”

    How brain dead are you? Domestic Violence = War? And to rub salt in the wound, domestic violence is something to be scoffed at and minimized?

    “Shunning is serious, and usually considered a last resort after repeated warnings.”

    Perhaps if it were a last resort in the FLDS they’d get a “free pass” too. Then again, I don’t know of cases of the Amish “shunning” their under 18 children, so that might be a factor too. The Amish and the FLDS have very, very little in common and comparing the two groups is simply a false comparison in virtually every respect.

  379. I was only comparing the practice of “shunning”, many religious groups do that. If you leave the LDS or even a fundy protestant religion, you will inevitably lose many friends and perhaps contact with family members.

    No, I don’t agree with it and is something I don’t like about fundies in general but tossing them in jail for refusing to associated with their apostates won’t solve the problem.

  380. Duane,

    The practice of “shunning” I am sure makes us all uncomfortable, and I am GLAD you don’t support this practice, but no one is throwing them in jail for not associating with their apostates.

    We are condemning the fact that they drop their children off on the hwy with absolutely no money, no education, no way to have a decent start on life.

    The Amish teen-agers are given a time to associate with the real world and DECIDE if they want to stay. I am sure alot do and probably some don’t.

    But totally different than the FLDS!

  381. No one is tossing them in jail for refusing to associate with apostates. The jail tossing is mostly related to sex with children, so far. I think that’s called a straw man argument.

  382. “Wow – There ya go folks, a racist remark hidden in a comment.”

    Yeah, Stamp, I noticed that. If I were to try to think of something that would get me shunned by my friends and family, that is not what would spring to MY mind.
    ===============================================
    Some of my family is more tolerant then others; some less tolerant. /shrug what can you say? Saying I’m part of some Aryan nation is uncalled for.

  383. Speaking of education I see that the primer has been updated:

    New version — Approaches to education vary widely among fundamentalist groups and families. Some communities build and staff their own private or charter schools with the goal of providing high quality education for their children. Some fundamentalists prefer private education due to what they perceive as secular, liberal and promiscuous influences found in many public schools. Many fundamentalists insist on schooling their children at home, with some using correspondence curricula such as the American School program. Some parents encourage their teens to graduate from high school early and to begin college before their graduating class.

  384. “No, I don’t agree with it and is something I don’t like about fundies in general but tossing them in jail for refusing to associated with their apostates won’t solve the problem.”

    Please be good enough to let us know just who has been tossed into jail for “shunning” anyone?

  385. No, I don’t agree with it and is something I don’t like about fundies in general but tossing them in jail for refusing to associated with their apostates won’t solve the problem.
    ==================================================
    OK I see where Duane is going with this. He is not necessarily saying that by shunning folks people are going to jail. I think what he implying, but doing poorly, is that we are using shun methods of certain religious groups to further demonize them.

  386. You sure are getting more out of duane’s words than he put into them, Alin.

  387. The WarDEN is coming! He’s going to be your new Seer for now until your penitentiary sentence is served. For most of you these circumstances will be like a faithful FLDS member. If times get tough just look upon poor Warren here, for him he has to learn all of these things like a newborn, so take heart.

  388. Yes, Alin, I got a good laugh out of that. If you like fiction, I have some better reading recommendations for you.

  389. That Kluxer Alin sure gets odd ideas.

  390. Pffft! It was just a guess which I was explicit about. If you got a better guess I would love to hear it.

    That Kluxer Alin sure gets odd ideas. LOL

  391. Let’s see all Gentiles and the outside World is the devil’s workshop, according to FLDS teachings that means everyone on this planet save the pure FLDS brethren.

    Excuse me what were you accusing us lowly Gentiles of doing? We’re trying to demonize a fanatical covert fundamentalist sect? Surely, your not serious because for them they’ve, “Dusted their sandals” long ago and are awaiting the ‘fireballs’, according to the Prophet Jeffs.

  392. “OK I see where Duane is going with this. He is not necessarily saying that by shunning folks people are going to jail. I think what he implying, but doing poorly, is that we are using shun methods of certain religious groups to further demonize them.”

    Yeah, that’s the ticket. We shunned the FLDS into Short Creek and now we shun them into breaking the law too. Wow, Alin, your comments have gone from pathetic to completely clueless. Keep up the good work.

  393. “You sure are getting more out of duane’s words than he put into them, Alin.”

    You think that’s bad, you should see Alin’s interpretation of the Fourth Ammendment. 😉

  394. “Pffft! It was just a guess which I was explicit about. If you got a better guess I would love to hear it.”

    Some of us on this board try to use logic, deduction and reason. There are even a few who are willing to round up “evidence” which is really handy when using logic, deduction, and reason. You might want to give it a try sometime. If you ever get tired of being scoffed for “guessing” or be too lazy to do your own research.

  395. So, let’s tally up the score.

    We have Alin who is sometimes a woman and sometimes a man. Who never lies but is perfectly happy to spread rumors that are lies. Who demands evidence of others but provides “guesses” as arguments. Who whines about being attacked (granted, I’ve been pretty derogatory about Alin, so it’s a valid complaint) but takes no responsiblity or accountability for misinformation and deception.

    Then we have Duane who likes to claim that the FLDS should be treated as individuals but wants to lump all anti’s as “people who want to exterminate the FLDS” because he claims some have said that. This is the same person who logged on as an anonymous blogger who made the same claims that he is trying to lay at our door.

    Yep, the FLDS certainly have the cream of the crop speaking out for them. If I was FLDS I’d be looking for ways to disassociate myself from my “friends” because they certainly aren’t doing the FLDS any favors.

  396. The State has responded to the defense brief in the Motion to Suppress the evidence from the search warrents. Sorry Alin, unless the State has no clue what they’re talking about it looks like your wishful thinking about what the Fourth Amendment means (which can be found on Blue’s blog) is just — wishful thinking.

    http://166.70.44.68/blogs/plurallife/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Response_to_Brief_and_Argument.PDF

  397. Rebeckah, I didn’t say “all” anti-polygs want to exterminate them, but many do and make no bones about it.

    Yes Alin you are right, the FLDS practice of “shunning” is being used to demonize them even though pretty much all fundies practice shunning in one form or another.
    The reason I mentioned we shouldn’t throw them in jail for it is because it seems that most/many/”a bunch” anti-polygs believe anything the flds does should be a crime and thus outlawed, leading to more and more laws and regulations governing our personal behavior. If they had their way, calling a woman a “stupid b___” or a man “an ignorant bas___” would be a crime.

  398. Quite the peanut gallery.

  399. “Yes Alin you are right, the FLDS practice of “shunning” is being used to demonize them even though pretty much all fundies practice shunning in one form or another.”

    And the ones who practice it on their underage children are pretty much all demonized. Or did you not pay attention to the Alamo trials? People were just as up in arms over HIS abuse of his followers and the human rights violations he enacted.

  400. “The reason I mentioned we shouldn’t throw them in jail for it is because it seems that most/many/”a bunch” anti-polygs believe anything the flds does should be a crime and thus outlawed, leading to more and more laws and regulations governing our personal behavior.”

    “most/many/a bunch”? Right from the start I’ve had serious problems with “most” of the statements that you want to use to claim such horrible persecution. Why? Well for starters because I don’t believe this time when you got caught was the first time you posted lines like that. In fact, I think the FLDS have been doing it from the beginning just to try and garner support for themselves. I know I’ve actually spoken out many times about people making those kinds of comments and so have most of the posters I respect on these blogs. Sorry, Duane, but you have no evidence that “many/most or even a shole bunch” of people have done, said, posted anything of the sort. Yes, there are some who are vocal and even some who are excessive in their zeal to see every perpetrator thrown in jail (in my opinion). But they are a serious minority.

    If I’m wrong feel free to prove to me that those posters you talk about aren’t you, Alin, Pliggy, Lone Rider and all your other buddies “Lying for the Lord”. That’s the problem with being dishonest. Once you lose your reputation it is very hard to get back.

  401. Rebeckah, I didn’t say “all” anti-polygs want to exterminate them, but many do and make no bones about it.

    Especially the sock puppet ones created by Duane….

  402. I’m sure Duane has had plenty of help. My “gut” tells me that a few of the many faces of Alin have contributed to these little gems, and I wouldn’t put it past Pliggy either. If caught I’m sure he had excuses prepared to offer as lame as Duane’s have been. 😆

  403. Rebeckah, the stories about FLDS parents dropping their underage boys on the side of the road in the middle of the desert and driving off, I catagorically reject as an outright lie. So whenever those stories are mentioned in blog posts, I just dimiss them as gibberish, a waste of space and skip over them.

  404. Duane, Duane, Duane. Now what did momma say about keeping those corn cobs in your ears too long. You just gotta listen closer.

    http://www.plumtv.com/videos/docstock-sons-of-perdition/index.html

    Are you saying the kids are lying? Are you saying that those that are helping these kids are lying?

    Duane you keep saying everyone is lying and everyone keeps bringing you proof. How about you show some proof that these folks are lying.

    Love Walton

  405. WOW!! Walton–thanks for the link…if that doesn’t make a believer out of ya–nothing will.
    Can’t these people have some kind of charges brought against them for leaving their kids behind? I realize some leave on their own–but????
    These kids are so backwards–they know very little..no wonder that some of them end up on drugs or getting into trouble.
    I just can’t figure these people out?? It’s my way or the hi-way!!! Some choice!!!
    and to think Pliggy wanted to get back into this? Makes my head spin–hmmm…I wonder how he would like it if one day his own children are put out on the street????

  406. Duane, I have personally met some of these underage boys whose FLDS parents sure did drop them off by the side of the road (drove them to the highway on the edge of town of Hildale or Colorado City) in the middle of the desert (because that is where Hildale and Colorado City are – in the middle of nowhere in the Mohave Desert) and the parent drove off leaving them on the side of the highway in the middle of the desert to hitch a ride to heavens only knows where and to heaven only knows what kind of existence to fend for themselves and try to survive on their own – as CHILDREN, remember – in the outside world.

    It happens dude – and it sucks. And Warren Jeffs told many parents to do this to their sons and they did.

    These parents should be charged with child endangerment and child neglect. They are criminals acting in the name of religion.

  407. “Rebeckah, the stories about FLDS parents dropping their underage boys on the side of the road in the middle of the desert and driving off, I catagorically reject as an outright lie. So whenever those stories are mentioned in blog posts, I just dimiss them as gibberish, a waste of space and skip over them.”

    Duane, the ex-FLDS boy who killed his girlfriend was on his own at the age of 13! It’s a fact and I’d like to know just where that boy’s parents were. I’d like to know where the parents of any of those young men who are under the age of 18 and living on the streets are! Maybe they drop them off on the side of the road, maybe they don’t, but they DO abandon them. They don’t deserve to keep their remaining children as far as I’m concerned.

    (Of course, by “they” I mean the parents who have abandoned their children, which not all do by any means.

  408. “Can’t these people have some kind of charges brought against them for leaving their kids behind?”

    I think CPS should track down the parents of these boys and take any children still in their home. (Unless they can actually prove they didn’t just abandon their sons out there.) Furthermore, I think the parents of the girl who was murdered should sue the parents of the boy who killed their daughter for wrongful death.

  409. The name of the boy that killed his girlfriend is Parley Jeffs Dutson. Extremely sad story for everyone involved imo.

    These kids weren’t just shunned by the members in their Church, they were shunned cast out of their families lives. Their Church, their homes, their communities.

    Many of the “local police” knew about this and did nothing to stop it or help them out.

    These kids and some adults feel a pain and a loss that no one should.

    Poor Ruth struggles to see her children and they won’t let her.
    It isn’t right,

  410. The girl Parley killed was Kara Hopkins. She was 15 and he was 18 at the time of the shooting. They had been seeing each other for some time.

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/660212883/Man-in-April-7-slaying-appears-in-court.html

  411. Funny thing about the ‘Lost Boy’ stories that are well documented are repeated in the Creston Valley in British Columbia. This will prove to be a problem in Texas, however, because the childrens biometrics and DNA has been data based, so no more teen boy dumping in Schleicher County, Texas.

  412. Count me as another who has met lost boys, dropped off, from down south.

  413. What I don’t believe in is Duane. Preposterous!

  414. What I catagorically reject as outright lies and gibberish is anything duane writes. He has lied so much and been caught at it. He has posted urls that freeze your computer, put words in others mouth as a sock puppet and directed people to KKK sites.
    Little wonder that his credibility is shot.

  415. This is an outrage–you don’t just drop a kid on the curb; I can’t believe they can get away with this crude act!!!!
    Isn’t there anything that can be done????

  416. What I would hope the public and law enforcement understand about this, is these boys are raised in an isolated community, then thrust into a world where they have been taught to fear and hate the “outside”. They have no survival skills, no money, no food,
    no shelter, barely any education and are homeless living on the streets from the first day.

    What happens to that boy? He turns into an angry & potentially abusive man that still has the emotional mentality of a young child with no way to provide for himself or any future family. Pretty dismal, isn’t it?

    How can the parents not be held responsible? It is child abandonment in every sense of the word. They should be prosecuted to stop the practice & discourage any future “drop offs”.

  417. Brooke Adams posted the Texas State Response to Judge Walther on the motion to suppress.

    The response is actually very good and very throuogh!

  418. What I don’t believe in is Duane. Preposterous!

    Well, you’re not alone. A lot of people have speculated that Duane is nothing more than a carefully crafted FLDS troll. While no one can say for certain, I don’t think he is.

    While it’s hard to figure, there are folks in the world like Duane and like old Regina Ericson. Folks that just choose to ignore multiple corroborating stories and accept their own distorted view of reality.

  419. Hey, folks, duane learned a new word! He called me a “statist”. I didn’t know I was an economist. Lucky me. And, amazingly enough, I became that because of some traumatic event in the 70’s. Isn’t that interesting? And totally fictional?

    Sadly, I think he’s real. I think he’s a tool, but he’s real.

  420. “What I would hope the public and law enforcement understand about this, is these boys are raised in an isolated community, then thrust into a world where they have been taught to fear and hate the “outside”.”

    Worse than that, Mississippigirl, by being abandoned they are being told that not even their parents can love them (i.e. they are totally worthless and unloveable) and their religious teachings have told them that they are now doomed to total destruction and death. How can any human being do that to another? How can any parent believe a philosophy that won’t let them unconditionally love their children? I’m sure even Ted Bundy’s mother loved him until the very end. (Or loves him now, if he’s still alive — I don’t know.)

  421. Betty,
    Statist doesn’t mean statistician.

    “Statism (or etatism) is a term that may refer to either one or both of the following:

    A major government or state role in the direction of the economy, both directly through state-owned enterprises and indirectly through the state-directed economic planning of the overall economy.[1][2]
    A political viewpoint “that sovereignty is vested not in the people but in the national state, and that all individuals and associations exist only to enhance the power, the prestige, and the well-being of the state. The fascist concept of statism repudiates individualism and exalts the nation as an organic body headed by the Supreme Leader and nurtured by unity, force, and discipline.”[3]
    Statism is sometimes used to refer to state capitalism or highly regulated market economies with large amounts of government intervention, and also to refer to state socialism or co-operative economic systems that use the state, through nationalization, as a means of running industry in the interest of the majority.”

    In other words, he’s accusing you of being a socialist and wanting the government to run everything. It’s still fictional, but I thought you’d like the actual defenition of the word.

  422. I agree, Ron, I don’t think Duane is FLDS. Some or all of the Alins seem to have FLDS attitudes, however, as does not-so-Concerned. I wonder about them from time to time.

    Oh, just to brag, my latest grandson Logan was born at 6:17 yesterday morning at 8 lbs 2 oz and 19 and 1/2 inches. They’re coming home today. 😉

  423. Congratulations, Rebeckah! 🙂

  424. Congratulations, Rebeckah

    I think Duane and Alin are firm believers in The Principle: plural trolling 🙂

  425. Congrats Rebeckah!!!!

  426. Awh,, Congrats Rebekcah!!! How wonderful,, a beautiful healthy new baby!!!

  427. Welcome to the world, Logan 🙂 Congratulations, Granny Rebeckah 🙂

  428. Thank you all! I have been busy making Mom and Dad’s room nice and clearing up space for Logan in the toyroom off of Mom and Dad’s room. (The doctors didn’t expect him until next Thursday and my son and I never do today what we can put off until tomorrow.)

  429. I know what it means Rebeckah. It has most commonly been used as a type of economic theory that favors an economy run under tight state controls in order to increase the stability of the state.

  430. Oh, I thought (for reasons which I cannot bring to mind) that you were thinking it was some sort of religious philosophy. Don’t ask me why I thought that, I have no idea. 😉

  431. “People respond to unconditional love, not control, dictatorship, narcissism, shame, punishment. The whole culture of mormonism is toxic to relationships. If you like to perform to get an ego boost, then mormonism is for you. But my opinion is that you will never feel true intimacy in a relationship with a tbm because the church comes first, meaning they probably love the church more than you. You are only as good as how much you are dedicated to the cult. They can cut you out of their lives in an instant, because they never really loved you anyways. They loved the idea of marriage, but not you as a person.

    Its as if mormonism gives people permission to be narcissistic like itself. Cooperation, compromise, negotiating, accepting, having an opinion, unconditional love, empathy, respecting others, are foreign concepts in mormonism.”

    6 Iron over at the exmormon blog posted this on a thread about Mormonism fitting the definition of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I thought it very appropriate. 😉

    http://www.exmormon.org/boards/w-agora/index.php?site=exmobb&bn=exmobb_recovery

  432. But knowing Betty outside the blogosphere, I am absolutely delighted with the idea of her having been traumatized as a teen and turned into an economist.

    Rebeckah, congratulations and all the best to all of you.

    I have a Rolodex which contains the phone numbers of an Amish, a Mennonite and a Hasidic Jew. Every time Duane attempts to draw a comparison with one of these groups, I call each of them up and ask them what they think. And today they all said, “Nope, won’t fly. We’re still appalled by the comparison, sorry.” My Hasidic friend added, “And get off the phone. It’s almost sundown, and I have stuff to do.”

  433. BTW, the incredible tragedy of Parley Jeffs Dutson and Kara Hopkins illustrates Cement’s point about the delayed effect of abandonment in this group.

    “For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: it hath no stalk; the bud shall yield no meal…” (Hosea 8:7)

  434. Duane is real. Sometimes he piles it up so high that he knows sooner or later I’ll come behind him with my shovel.

    Duane is kinda fun to spar with. He thinks he’s right and then I prove him wrong.

    I can’t imagine what it must be like for these kids. I had heard that they didn’t want to get their parents into trouble so some of them didn’t want to press any charges. But…. the Attorney General should have done it for them. Shurtleff talked to the kids. He knew their names. He knew their families. He did nothing.

    They deserve to have help with food and a place to live. They should be allowed to continue their education. If Daddy can have 20 some wives and 100 children isn’t part of being a parent to be responsible for your children? Maybe if Momma and Daddy were busy working they wouldn’t have all the time to be having more babies. jmo

    And now as this goes two steps forward, the state of Utah is also moving 50 years back.

    The AUB had purchased over 900 acres in the state of Utah. When Shurtleff says things like “We won’t bother arresting you for Polygamy but IF you break other laws we will come after you.”

    Well why allow more laws to be broken?

    Polygamy is rarely ever about consenting adults. jmo

  435. I think the idea that I am an “ex” hippie is pretty funny. I do tie dye. I wear hand made shoes. Come on.

  436. One of my friends is doing her PhD on the effects of extreme trauma (like war, holocaust, natural disaster) on the generations that come after. Interesting and a tad scary.

  437. Parley was 18. Kara was 15. They had already been dating a year when this happened. They had known each other prior to that. Parley use to go to Karas house and had family dinners with them.

    Karas mother was letting her then 14 year old daughter date Parley. Kara was at a party where alcohol and drugs were shared.

    The family decided to pull the plug on Kara. Would Kara have survived if they didn’t? Who knows.

    Both families were from St. George.

    Here is some more: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6764736

    The kids need help. Those that have been kicked out need help. Those that would like to leave need help.

    But none of them would need help if Shurtleff wouldn’t wait for more laws to be broken. jmo

  438. Way off topic I know.

    Betty the whole “hippie” thing is coming back.

    Wide leg pants. Tie dye shirts. Peace sign jewelry. (I just bought a necklace and earrings.)

    They said if you wait long enough the fashion comes back. (Should have saved my stuff.) 🙂

  439. Well, I’m never wearing platforms again. I’m drawing a line.

  440. Amen, Sister.

  441. In checking cases in Nevada, New Mexico today, I found several interesting facts. When FLDS get traffic tickets, or are sued, or have civil cases against them, they just keep moving. I saw a case today that still ins’t closed , because they can’t find the person. They were sued in 2001 and have a warrant out for their arrest, not counting the 20 traffic tickets they got before 2001.
    The court just keeps passing it along to the next judge each year.
    Doesn’t matter whether it’s men or women in Flds, they just up and move to another location. There are a few, who plead guilty and pay their tickets, or get a judgement against them, or declare bankruptcy. But for the most part they just move from state to state.

  442. DD, they coulda learned that from the tinkers or traveling irish. Well, they coulda. I’ve run across some of them, too.

  443. Yuppers, GrannyToad they coulda 🙂

  444. Hello Everyone,

    I’ve been reading the various boards for several months just trying to learn more about and keep abreast of the FLDS issues. I was living in southern Arizona when I first heard about the short creek area – – and was shocked. I now live in New Mexico with family in West Texas. I grew up in the ’50s and ’60s when there were no safety nets for abused women and children. I am appalled by the lack of appropriate response by Utah and Arizona’s elected officials to the expanding “short creek” issues to include the exploitation of adult males. I am the mother of three daughters and sometimes feel we are slipping back towards those days of suffering in silence.

    Could someone explain how a tax lien works? I’ve always paid my taxes and simply don’t know.

  445. Morzey

    These IRS tax liens are recorded to encumber RE or assets of someone whom didnt pay their income tax.

    If you were a tax fraud, for instance Tony Alamo, and made them mad, they can throw you in prison.

    You may cheat them and NOT get thrown in prison, but when audited they might just file the lien if you tow the line and work with them.

    Of course there are many variables to all of this, and it amazes me that some of the FLDS havent been imprisoned for tax fraud, seeing that there is a systemic conspiracy to avoid paying them.

    Nothing like gaining compliance through enforcement.

  446. Thanks Stamp. We made a mistake on our taxes once and the IRS didn’t lose any time contacting us. Since it was an unintentional mistake, we worked with them immediately and paid up – so no problem. What does the lien usually invoke? Seizing of assets if taxes not paid? If so, how long – generally – does the IRS wait before making seizure? I find it interesting that there is/was pressure within the FLDS for individuals to donate their assets to the UEP yet it appears the leadership have sufficient private properties/assets upon which the IRS can place a lien(s). Do Warren and Annette own a business?

  447. The liens secure an interest in property, or if none is owned, in future assets or income owed said liened person.

    This is the third lien (at least) that Warren had, and I dont know that they had a business, rather think its a capital gains situation from sold property, JMHO.

    However, many if not most of the other liens on the list are from businesses or stake holders of such.

    Have you seen the list?

  448. Stamp: Yes, I’ve seen the list. Since it doesn’t appear that WJ has held a paying job in recent years, I find it surprising he’s accumulated such a large tax debt unless he didn’t pay taxes on his teaching income resulting in additional penalties. If he doesn’t pay the taxes, I’m assuming Annette will or should be held equally responsible for paying the debt since her name was on the lien.

  449. Having Annettes name on the lien is just SOP. They will never collect from her, she owns nothing and never will.

    As this is the third lien I tend to think its capital gains on RE that people gave him and he sold for the money.

  450. http://eweb.washco.utah.gov/recorder/eagleweb/docSearch.jsp

    Go there, log in, type in name Jeffs Warren

    You will see a boatload of RE transactions and lien transactions
    by Warren

  451. Thank you for the link. If one types in additional names as well, it does appear there were quite a number of land/property transfers (sales?) in recent years to and from the leadership personnel. “Hilldale Town” – – sounds like city property – – transferred/sold to the UEP, a private trust? I won’t even pretend to understand it all especially after a long day.

  452. City property to UEP?

    That does sound interesting, marezydoats

  453. “Lord of the FLies”

    Thats what Utah allowed to happen.

    And its recorded history now too.

    And yes, you can look up lots of names in the records.

  454. “Plot Summary

    Set during World War II, the story describes the plight of a group of British schoolboys stranded on a Pacific island after their plane was shot down en route to England.

    Two of the boys, Ralph and Piggy, discover a conch in the lagoon near the beach and use it to call all the other survivors, setting up a mock democratic government with Ralph as leader. Piggy continues to advise and give logic and reason to Ralph’s rule. A signal fire, kindled with the lens of Piggy’s glasses, is established on the mountain to call passing ships to their rescue while shelters are constructed.

    However, the school’s choir leader, Jack, soon becomes obsessed with hunting the pigs of the island and loses sight of Ralph’s democratic vision. Further discord results with an increasing fear of a supposed “beast” on the island, stemming particularly from the younger boys dubbed the “littluns.” Jack eventually abandons any thought of being rescued, content instead with hunting and killing pigs with his choir boys turned into hunters. Jack later speaks out of turn during their assembly meetings and eventually leaves the group to start a “tribe.”

    Other children gradually defect to his side except for Ralph, Piggy, Simon and the twins Samneric (Sam and Eric). One by one these children are eliminated from the opposition.”

    =========================

    Summary continued here, BTW its a movie with startling parallels to the FLDS.

    Only the FLDS dont grasp there are adults on the beach to rescue them from the atrocities they brought upon themselves.

    http://www.bookrags.com/notes/lof/SUM.html

  455. FLDS Texas

    If your intent was to unlock the religious thread, you did everything but un-close the comments.

  456. Stamp, I have always refused to read that book. What little I’ve been exposed to just turned my stomach.

  457. Yeah, I had to read it in college and barely made it through.

  458. Wow, we had to read it in 10th grade high school. Was our teacher trying to tell us something?

  459. I’ve never read the book but saw the movie when I was young and found it disturbing.

    But I see so many parallels with the FLDS it reminded me of it – only the FLDS is communist not democratic. Still, there is ongoing struggles over leadership over the decades.

    The only thing that stays the same is “change”,

  460. (remake) Lord of the Flies movie trailer

  461. 1963 Black and white version movie trailer

  462. duane–good grief–sure they have a choice. The choice is they can leave and leave their children behind. Do you really believe those pot-bellied men are going to allow one of their wives to leave with a car load of her children? Of course not!!!
    =======================================================
    Really? When Carolyn moved out Merril could have taken about 20 minutes to change the lock on the door and not let her inside to get their children.

  463. Ron said:

    FLDS Texas
    If your intent was to unlock the religious thread, you did everything but un-close the comments.

    I did unlock comments because I couldn’t have made that post at the end otherwise. I believe one of the other admin made the executive decision to keep them locked a bit longer to let things cool down- probably wisely. I will go unlock it if it’s not already. But every body better behave!!

  464. “Really? When Carolyn moved out Merril could have taken about 20 minutes to change the lock on the door and not let her inside to get their children.”

    Gee, I wonder if that’s why she took her children with her when she left.

  465. In my humble opinion, Lord of the Flies was an incredibly depressing story — as were most of the stories I was forced to read in Honors English. I’ve always wondered just WHY schools do that. I mean, adolecents are facing enough problems with depression as it is — couldn’t they find some CHEERFUL literature for them to read in English?

  466. Why do people without brains try to post here anyway?

  467. That’s a good question. I’m pretty sure one of our rules when we opened the board was that stupid people are not allowed.

  468. Funny FLDS Texas. They snuck in anyway.

  469. Where are they? I’ll get the spray!

    Ron, the religion thread is open now if you have something inspirational and ethereal to post … and even if you don’t.

  470. Really? When Carolyn moved out Merril could have taken about 20 minutes to change the lock on the door and not let her inside to get their children.
    Alinusara10 said this on August 22, 2009 at 3:02 PM
    ———-

    Is that right?

  471. Really? When Carolyn moved out Merril could have taken about 20 minutes to change the lock on the door and not let her inside to get their children.
    Alinusara10 said this on August 22, 2009 at 3:02 PM
    *****

    Gee, think that might be why she left in the middle of the night when he was out of town and made sure she took all her children with her when she left?

    Ali-here’s your sign!

  472. Calvin Lee Black, 33, 1294 N. Rome Way, Apple Valley, was arrested Thursday on charges of public intoxication, simple assault, disorderly conduct and two domestic violence counts of in the presence of a child. Black was booked into Purgatory Correctional Facility on $5,044 bail.

  473. Really? When Carolyn moved out Merril could have taken about 20 minutes to change the lock on the door and not let her insided to get their children.
    *******

    What? Where have you been????? Carolyn was waiting for Merril to leave so she could “escape”…it was never her plan to leave without her children–ALI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  474. JESSOP, RONALD SCOTT
    Birth Date: 09/20/84
    Address : 160 WEST AZ AVE;PO BOX 2544, Colorado City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    03:22:03 08/22/09 Bristol, Todd SGPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    WARRANT-C/B WARRANT-CASH OR BOND BM WCJ3 574.00 574.00

  475. Granny Toad,

    When I viewed the website Stamp provided, the term “Hilldale Town” just seemed a bit odd to me. Perhaps it was due to past chatter about the FLDS folks and/or the UEP owning a large portion of the short creek area. For all I know, “Hilldale Town” could be the incomplete name of a parcel(s) or business, such as “Hilldale Town & Country”, a privately-owned shopping mall.

  476. No, Hildale (only one ‘L’) is one of the twim plyg cities, the other being Colorado City.

    Hildale is on the UT side.

    —————————–

    And from the PRIMER

    page 8

    ============

    “Recently, a community-wide raid took place in the FLDS community near Eldorado, Texas, in April of 2008. Although this raid did not occur in Utah or Arizona, many of the families involved had recently relocated to Texas expressly to distance themselves from perceived persecution.

    These events have resulted in deep scars among Fundamentalist Mormons and helped to foster a fear of government agencies and a distrust of “outsiders””.

    ========================

    Oh, yeah, I bet the Million dollars in bail money left a dent in their pocketbook too.

    And the Dirty Dozen facing trial hurts their feelings?

    And they now have a “a fear of government agencies and a distrust of “outsiders””?

    Isnt that why they moved to a fenced, gated, WATCHTOWER COMMUNE to begin with?

    Maybe they forgot to think about the deep scars they leave upon their own children.

    Is that not why they are going to prison?

  477. cement

    Perhaps at that point (for those that go mainstream Christian) is to find one of many so called “non’denominational” groups. You can fellowship and have freinds, but not be tied to a religious backstory such as Catholics are.

    JMHO

    Also I would point out, its the “Denominations” ie LDS, Catholic, Baptist whatever, that kind of defive the “Religion” you belong to and they set aside spirituality whenever the subject arises.

    Hence for me personally, I cannot feel comfortable under the rules and regulations of a “Denomination” and although for many it works, its just not me.

    The FLDS fiasco is the end result of a yet young “Denomination” working out its many kinks.

  478. Thank you for the spelling correction. I should have caught that myself. Having lived in small towns, I know that many do not have shopping malls. My choice of example (shopping mall) was an intentional bit of “tongue in cheek”. I have occassionally been accused of having a sense of humor.

    I can accept a primer’s need to be neutral; however, I do take exception to the declaration of motive for the relocation – – “relocated to Texas expressly to distance themselves from perceived persecution”. To me, that declaration goes beyond the bounds of neutral. Only one man knows why he decided on the move and no one can read his mind to learn the truth – – not even the authors of the primer. I suspect the move was made to give him greater control of assets and thus tremendous power.

  479. What? Where have you been????? Carolyn was waiting for Merril to leave so she could “escape”…it was never her plan to leave without her children–ALI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    ========================================================
    Umm you do know that Carolyn left the ranch and came back the next day to pick up her children don’t you?

  480. “and from the Primer:

    ‘These events have resulted in deep scars among Fundamentalist Mormons and helped to foster a fear of government agencies and a distrust of “outsiders” ‘.”

    I would tag this line as disingenuous as well as non-neutral. I think a more accurate statement would be “and enhanced a self-indoctrinated fear of – – – – and a distrust, etc.”

    The grizzly bear that enters a kitchen just wants to be left alone, too
    – – – and for the same reason.

  481. Who in their right mind would perceive that persecution for Mormon polygamy would be less in Texas than in Utah????

  482. Um, you do know that Carolyn never lived on the ranch, don’t you?

  483. Betty,

    A. Folks who are not familiar with Texas?

    B. Folks who are use to being coddled by Utah and Arizona?

    C. All of the above?

  484. Folks who are:

    A. Desperate and on the lam from the FBI and thus looking for low population density?
    B. Think God talks to them about interior design details?
    C. Really need to move assets to where the state of Utah can’t get them easily?
    D. All of the above?

  485. Umm you do know that Carolyn left the ranch and came back the next day to pick up her children don’t you?

    Alinusara10 said this on August 23, 2009 at 2:46 PM
    *******

    Ummm, you do realize someone has lied to you don’t you? What a easy mark you are.

  486. This post was from Curious / OntheStreet and is hereby deleted.

  487. On the Street was not a lost boy, he was an ousted adult and he was anything but crystal clear. He was incoherent and occasionally abusive.

  488. Anonymous, we may or may not be ignorant. But if a parent abandons their minor children, it’s someone’s fault. Generally, the parent. In my state, that’s a form of abuse.

  489. On the Street was/is a nasty cranky, at time, potty mouthed man that wasted blog space with his LONG diatribes of trash. He was “banned” from one blog [that I know of] due to his excessive posting of nonsense. He was given his own space, on another blog, to post all the trash talk he wanted. I don’t know if anyone atually went there to read it. There was speculation as to his identity,and his possible mental intability. I haven’t seen him around much..and I don’t miss his writings.

  490. Anonymous, I’ve read some of On the Street’s posts. It is a bit difficult for a reader to understand a “crystal clear” answer(s) when they are encouched in a mile-long discourse. If my lack of understanding makes me a flat-headed rock, just call me “Hudson”.

    Since you understood his responses, would you please translate them with crystal clarity so us ignorant pukes can understand. I, for one, am trying but the hyperbole and red-herrings keep getting in the way.

  491. It seems like there was a poster on this sad blog called On the Street that you pukes banned, who answered these questions crystal clear. He was a lost-boy from the FLDS, and clearly proved that it wasn’t the Church’s fault, any more than it’s the Baptists fault that boys abandon themselves on their own. You guys are the real losers, and ignorant as a flat-headed rock.

    Hey Tim AKA Street good try.
    Your the real loser and ignorant as a flat-headed rock.

  492. Anonymous August 23, 2009 at 3:35 PM/Curious/Onthestreet if you don’t like this blog why keep coming back? While I have pity for you and the sadness of your life, your posts are always filled with the ramblings of a mentally ill man and I since I feel that encouraging your participation in these discussion is very harmful to your mental illness I for one am very glad that the administrators of blogs ban you every time you find a new computer to post from.

    The best anyone can do for you is pray for your mental health and encourage you to seek professional help.

  493. Word is, a new prophet is letting in all the “Repentant from afar” Pliggy types back in.

    Doesnt look like Street made the cut – any questions why?

  494. Could it be the leaders fear they couldn’t get a word in edge-wise?

  495. “Umm you do know that Carolyn left the ranch and came back the next day to pick up her children don’t you?”

    Ummm, you do know that Carolyn was never on the ranch, don’t you? She left the FLDS before the YFZ ranch was started. She didn’t return after she left. She took all of her children with you. Once again you are driving on the internet highway without a clue.

  496. “Who in their right mind would perceive that persecution for Mormon polygamy would be less in Texas than in Utah????”

    Actually, according to Warren’s dictations, he moved the elite to Texas to form the new Zion. It had nothing to do with persecution. The fences and gatetowers might have been a response to fears of persecution, but the move itself was religiously motivated.

  497. Are all of Raymond’s charges going to be tried in October or will he have more than one trial?

  498. lol, correction

    Carolyn took all of her children with HER when she left.

    Darn typos.

  499. He’s got the bigamy charge from marrying TJ when his legal wife was Mary J. Musser. Is she any kin to Becky Musser who’s Elissa Wall’s sister?

    And he’s got the sexual abuse charge stemming from Janet Jeffs that Warren dictated about when Janet was in hard labor for 3 days and he wouldn’t let her be taken to a hospital. Does Janet just have the 2 kids (one with Ernie and one with Raymond) or has she had others?

  500. Personally, I think Elissa Wall’s legal war was new territory for the FLDS and seriously threatened them. Thus the security cameras pointed inward. That a young girl could take down the big guy is a huge threat; it has to effect the mentality of all the women.

  501. Ali

    ““Umm you do know that Carolyn left the ranch and came back the next day to pick up her children don’t you?”

    =================

    Who feeds you this mis-information!?

    Recommended reading for the Alinusara CLAN – “ESCAPE”

    Just think, one copy and you can pass it around amongst all of you!

    Or wait for the movie.

  502. That the men decided to point the cameras inward suggests Elissa Wall’s actions affected their mentality as well.

    If the FLDS are truly as fearful of the outside world as they profess, why then was Warren Jeffs not afraid to “tour” the US, mingling somewhat with the gentiles, and inviting his wives to join him during his flight from the Feds? Why were the YFZ folks not afraid to move to Texas?

  503. warren traveled incognito, in disquise if you will… And he did most of his traveling in the middle of the night. Had wives brought to him in the middle of the night.

  504. Ali–are you insane???? Do you really believe that pot bellied Merrill would have let Carolyn have her children if she left the day before..and causally came back and picked them up. Besides–her youngest was very sick..do you really believe that she would have left him behind for Babs to care for?…wake up and smell the coffee….
    Who told you that??? Pliggy????

  505. Insanity….seems to be common thread here for the factually deficient folks.

  506. Insanity?

    The twin of brainwashing. Seems they run together often.

    Oh that reminds me, Street stopped by today.

  507. Umm you do know that Carolyn left the ranch and came back the next day to pick up her children don’t you?

    Alinusara10 said this on August 23, 2009 at 2:46 PM

    Yep, still dumber than a stump and clueless as to the truth of the matter. Clueless about MANY matters regarding the FLDS, actually!

  508. There was a man who tried to get into the ranch prior to the raid. The people at the ranch called the Sheriff and they sent him on his way. Stamp do you know it was and what he wanted?

    As he was leaving I believe he said he would just go to Utah.

  509. Street…bless his pointed little head! I hadn’t seen him around in so long that I figured he’d found an outlet for his spewing. Found some gullible group who would hang on to his every gibber as if they were pearls of wisdom. But. alas….it’s all still gibberish to me.

  510. One more question. Prior to the raid there were at least three women who weren’t at the ranch during the raid. One of them was Patricia Keate.

    She saw Warren prior to the raid and then right after. Does anyone know why she would be allowed to see Warren? Was she married to him? or was she married to a Keate?

  511. Walton

    I dont have the answers to those Q’s , others might.

  512. One thing I do know, FLDS burn up the mileage between Texas, Utah and Arizona… They probably help keep the tire and gasoline Industry in business as much as they go back and forth!!!! LOL

  513. i think i read somewhere that annette was away from the ranch at the time of the raid so that would be the 2nd one. i have patricia keate listed as one of warren’s wives, so i guess that’s why she was visiting him. i think that’s where annette was also.

  514. Thanks everyone.

    I am curious as to who they name as the “person in charge”.

    Winston has his own can of worms to deal with. http://thetyee.ca/News/2006/05/26/Bountiful/

    It can’t be Merril. The Jeffs boys are out of the picture. Seems to me that they too would be seeing some court time.

    Wendell? I don’t think so.

    Any Willies? Wouldn’t make sense.

    A Johnson from the CPark?

    Maybe a brand new guy? Knudson? Does anyone know anything about those Knudson boys?

  515. That’s correct Proud Texan.. Both were visiting hubby! at the time of the raid….

  516. Grace Young Jeffs Barlow showed up after the raid from Nevada, where she had been for the last 3 yrs without her children.

  517. Oops,, I meant Grace Young Barlow Jessop

  518. grace is the one whose children lived with merril and barbara, right. one that the 2nd round of motions dealt with. the kids hadn’t seen their mom in a couple of years and when asked about her were told it was none of their business.

  519. Thank you, Rebeckah and DD, for the reminders; however, I still think an itinerary that includes New Orleans and Las Vegas – even in the dark of night – suggests more an act of curiosity than religious or evasive necessity. It just seems that when it comes to spending money there is plenty for the wants and needs of the higher-ups and not so much for the rank and file.

    I have little regard for the leaders, but do have at least some compassion for those they’ve misled.

  520. I’m catching up on posts and got a kick out of Rebeckah’s lament that school curricula focus on depressing lit. That’s a pet peeve of mine.

    I too read “Lord of the Flies” in high school, along with Herman Hesse’ execrable “Demian” and the usual assortment of self-involved coming-of-age novels. (Although they seemed more normal back when we had bomb shelters and air raid drills—no wonder we all needed psychotherapy.) But I never had one Vonnegut novel assigned, even though he was a genius.

    My 12-year-old loves a writer named Van Reid. His novels are set in turn-of-the-century Maine and are sly, witty, exciting and dear. My son also adores Arthur Conan Doyle. But he couldn’t read these books for sixth-grade English—he had to read “The Red Pony” instead. Lot of fun that was.

  521. “Lord of the Flies” was a required read for me, too. I also found it quite disturbing. The only other required reading I can recall (it’s been a few years) is “Lad, A Dog” – so sad. I’m quite drawn towards history and science – geology and anthropology in particular. Oddly enough, my worst subjects due to lack of interest in my younger years. I’m a James A. Michener fan. I enjoy the way he presents the factual data.

    Speaking of bomb shelters. There was a company in our community that installed them. Their advertisements implied you should have one if you loved your children. Because she could not afford one for us, this implication made my mother very angry. She wrote many letters of complaint to the company. For the rest of her life, the mere mention of “bomb shelter” would set her eyes to blazing accompanied by a spirited retelling of the story. Thank you, Greetings, for the memory jogger.

  522. i like the books by rick riordan – the percy jackson and the olympians series. i was pleasantly surprised last year when they were included in the 7th grade curriculum. there’s a new teacher this year, so i doubt they will be anymore. 7th graders can go back to being bored through reading class.

  523. One of my English teachers was an ancient, ropy little thing who loved leopard prints and mini-dresses. She once pushed her jeweled cat’s eye glasses back up her nose and announced in her most posh voice: “We are not here to like Hemingway; we are here to read him.” I dislike Hemingway to this day.

    But we also read the Cavalier poets, Shakespeare, Dante, Joseph Conrad, T.S. Eliot, Charles Dickens, Henry James, George Eliot, and many other wonderful writers. And a ‘new’ writer named Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, who was breathtaking.

    But I feel for all the kids who have trouble reading and must force their way through “Of Mice and Men.” Why not J. R. R. Tolkien instead?

  524. If thinking about bomb shelters gave you that warm, fuzzy Cold War feeling, I have one more memory for you: filmstrips.

    We once watched a filmstrip about Ingmar Bergman’s “The Seventh Seal.” I guess the filmstrip fit into the allotted time slot, whereas the movie would have taken two classes.

    Beep!

  525. I agree, GFNY, the choice of dark adult themes for 13 year old’s always seemed more than a little sadistic to me. Grapes of Wrath. F. Scott Fitzgerald.

    I had an English teacher who made us read aloud and she made some young athletic boy read the poem about the Owl and the Pussycat. There’s something sadistic about making a 15 year old boy say out loud “Oh pussy, oh pussy, oh pussy my love, what a beautiful pussy you are, you are”

    When I think of Solzhenitsyn, I think of a nun in full old fashioned habit reading aloud to our class. We got an hour a day of that for what seemed like forever. She had a nice voice with an upper class Irish accent. I was in grade school. So she was reading about the Gulag to 10 year olds. Definitely a cold war era memory.

    I hate Hemingway, also. Self important chauvinist. I read Siddhartha by Hesse in German.

    Yes, reading Vonnegut was something I did on the side, passing tattered paper backs between friends. Asimov and Heinlein, too.

  526. I love all of Bergman’s medieval stuff. But it’s definitely adult.

    I’m a samurai film fan, also.

  527. I had an English teacher once …

    I already read and wrote when I started school at 5, and when assigned reading lists came along I’d already read that stuff out of curiosity years before, never every “had to” read one. So by my Junior HS year I’d gotten the teacher everyone hated, and he assigned me a book not on that list because I’d smartmouthed off about having read ’em all.

    The following, senior year, because of time slots &c of other classes I was taking yup I got him again by default and was dumb enough to joke I could turn in last year’s work. He said “Yes you could. (pause) But I’d grade you down. I want you to learn something.”

    Actually as you can guess, we liked one another. I also had some algebra teacher who had Tight Hair, shouted, threw things, and didn’t take any BS from students along the line and I liked her, too. I must have poor taste, I liked “BAD” teachers.

  528. The only novel we had to read was Silas Marner, most BORING book I ever read!!!!! Didn’t get a thing out it. My teacher was weird back then, whatever color dress she wore, her fingernail polish matched. Black dress, Black fingernail polish,, green dress , green fingernail polish,, weird old lady..

  529. I once was sent to counseling by my GP because my husband was abusive and for some odd reason living in a house with him and all his weapons was making me nervous. I was also working full time, running my own karate school part time and going to night school. The only thing the counselor told me that was a help was that she suggested I start doing my nails twice a week. She said that it would make me feel pretty, and sitting still while the polish dried would give me some quality me time. None of that worked, but the health club owner liked the way the chinese red lacquer polish looked on my hands that he paid me to be have my hands in his TV ads.

  530. I am happy to remember that I had an entire semester in college on the novels of Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

    The required reading in high school was so awful, I can’t remember any of it. Which is a blessing.

    Betty, didya get high on the nail polish too?

  531. Ummm, you do know that Carolyn was never on the ranch, don’t you?
    =======================================================
    Umm I never mentioned the YFZ ranch.

  532. Carolyn never lived on any ranch. Alin specifically said she left the RANCH and came back the next day for the children.

    What you smokin’, Alin? Maybe doin’ some tequila there?

  533. Heh! One of y’all told me in no uncertain terms Carolyn left in the middle of the night after returning for her children. I just read the case and it appears that she left at 4 in the morning with all her children after telling the sister-wives they had a doctor’s appointment for one of them. When I’m wrong I’ll admit it.

  534. ALI

    She did leave in the middle of the night and yes she had to return to the house for her children, but that was during the Escape. She couldnt usher them all out at once, she went back last for her handicapped son.

    (she has eight children total)

    It was truly a harrowing escape.

    BTW, guess how much money Merril has paid to support his children so far?

    Still highly recommend that you buy or check out the book from the library and pass it to all the folks in your house.

    Its will give you perspective and education about the sect, as its obvious there are many things about them you arent aware of.

  535. Walton

    John Wayman?

    He is a big funder, perhaps THE biggest, and you know what they say, money talks and bullshit walks!

  536. No, rattle, and they didn’t give me any good anti-depressants, either.

  537. So what’s your point, ALI?

    She left in the middle of the night, with her children, no gas, no money but a heck of alot of courage.

    Merril could have cared less about those children which is very evident in the lack of child support he has paid. Betty was always his favorite and as a result of that , she is back there with him.

    Had my husband wanted me to forgo medical care for my severely sick child and the end result would have been my child’s death, you can just bet I would have left too.

  538. mississipgirl

    “Betty was his favorite” and yet she is contaminated by the world (probably viewed as too spunky for flds standards even though she bit hard)…

    So she is unmarried and may quite likely stay that way, probably eventually causing some jealousy havoc on the YFZ.

    I dont see her sitting there for another 5 years, JMHO… Too much spunk.

  539. ALI

    She did leave in the middle of the night and yes she had to return to the house for her children, but that was during the Escape. She couldnt usher them all out at once, she went back last for her handicapped son.

    (she has eight children total)
    ========================================
    Ta hell? What I just read didn’t say she returned for any of her children but took them all at once.
    ========================================
    She left in the middle of the night, with her children, no gas, no money but a heck of alot of courage.
    =========================================
    Perhaps so or perhaps she embellished her story a bit to sell more books. No way to know really.
    ===========================================
    Had my husband wanted me to forgo medical care for my severely sick child and the end result would have been my child’s death, you can just bet I would have left too.
    ================================================
    I thought her stated reason for leaving was she didn’t want her children to marry young?

  540. Stamp,

    I agree completely. I don’t see her sitting there for another 5 years either….

    I would imagine she wants no part in being married at all after seeing the examples set before her but if she did, I would also bet she is allowed to marry someone close to her own age as well as being 1st wife.

  541. 1. Her daughter Betty was about to turn 14. Carolyn knew warren was marrying underage girls off.

    2. Her son was born with cancer, and Merril didn’t want her or like her taking him to gentile hospitals for care.

    3. She has seen her sisterwife brutally discipline other sister wives children.

    She had good reason to leave the way she did. And when she did.
    She took all her children the night she left.. Betty was crying , didn’t understand why they were leaving, and Carolyn had to make her get in the car.

    Had Merril been there, chances are Carolyn would have been taken to the mental facility in Flagstaff, thats what they normally did to women who tried to leave.

  542. Read her book Alinusara, before you judge what she said. It’s not that expensive.. Or is it your to afraid to know the truth?

  543. Read her book Alinusara, before you judge what she said. It’s not that expensive.. Or is it your to afraid to know the truth?
    ============================================================
    How do you know it’s not in whole or in part fiction?

  544. Ali

    REALLY come on now – just read the BOOK!

    She had to RETURN TO THE HOUSE FROM THE CAR! Can you imagine loading all your children in, and having to go back in for your handicapped son!?

    SHE HAD TO RETURN TO THE HOUSE BEFORE SHE EVEN STARTED THE CAR!

    Read the book, YOU DECIDE if its fiction!

    Duane never beleived any of the flds crimes until his nose is rubbed in it, you are the same way?

    Do you need to see the pics of Warren french kissing 12 yr old girls again?

    The tax liens?

    The Dictations?

    The indictments?

    They are all here and NO THEY ARE NOT FICTION!

  545. Review

    “Escape provides an astonishing look behind the tightly drawn curtains of the FLDS Church, one of the most secretive religious groups in the United States.

    The story Carolyn Jessop tells is so weird and shocking that one hesitates to believe a sect like this, with 10,000 polygamous followers, could really exist in 21st-century America. But Jessop’s courageous, heart-wrenching account is absolutely factual. This riveting book reminds us that truth can indeed be much, much stranger than fiction.”

    http://www.amazon.com/Escape-Carolyn-Jessop/dp/0767927567

  546. It was truly a harrowing escape.

    According to Carolyn’s sis wives and others, she left during the day, said she going to a dentist appt. and took off. No doubt that is the truth as there would be absolutely no motive for them to lie about it. But the “middle of the night escape” makes for better drama. The only thing that made this caper “harrowing” was Betty’s unsuccessful attempt to fend off being forcibly taken by her mother.

    So she is unmarried and may quite likely stay that way, probably eventually causing some jealousy havoc on the YFZ

    No matter what you guys decide to pull out of your derrier each day, Betty’s “unescape” back into the FLDS is a thorn in the side of the anti-polygamy propaganda campaign.

  547. And then read the publics responses, such as this one, same page, scroll down:

    ——————-

    Excellent, buy it, borrow it, but read it!,

    November 8, 2007

    By D. Gilman “ethans_mom” (Salamanca, NY United States) –

    It took me only 2 days to read this book.

    The language is smooth and flowing, easy to follow.

    The book itself is chilling.

    Is this REALLY going on in mainstream America?

    Is our government, let alone the citizens of this country, allowing these abuses to thrive in this modern day and age?

    This book is moving and eye-opening.

    The real people who should be reading it are those locked into the FLDS who, sadly, will probably never even have access to a library in their lifetime.

    I hope the author will one day write a sequel to this book, I’d be very interested in knowing how this amazing woman’s life has ‘turned out’.

    Especially in regard to her daughter Betty, and in light of the exposure of Warren Jeffs and newly, “the lost boys”.

  548. Reading and absorbing the truth must be really painful for you, ALi, because you have yet to do it.

  549. duane

    Actually, I have no problem with it – it most likely hurt Carolyn at the time, and I’m sure she is still hurt, but the big picture is, she doesnt fit and will be an icon to the FLDS abuses, regardless that she went back.

    Which sister wives said she left during the day, your source?

    Sister Wife Barbara, the one who beats and kicks 3 year old children, and slaps crying babies until they can barely breath from crying so hard?

    PS have you read the book or are you talking out your derrier?

    (She was on watch BTW and they wouldnt allow her to leave with all her children at one time, which serves as an anchor preventing women from leaving at will)

    Do I need to draw you another picture duane!??

  550. Also the story of Barbaras throwing Carolyns three year old across a room and kicking him in the stomach was retold in a lawfull recorded dispostion given to LE.

    The baby slapped until it couldnt breath? Well, it was too young to remember THAT abuse.

  551. Give it up duane, are you so dumb you don’t get clued in that your posts here are being ignored. As if anyone here has been taught, by you, not to expect truthfulness. Go share with Bile Madvecky.

  552. Ali, duane, dont read the book if you dont want to! BUT read all the reviews written by the public.

    The resounding question is “How does this happen in modern day America?”

    There are too many reviews to list here. Read a few, there are over 300.

  553. http://www.amazon.com/Escape-Carolyn-Jessop/product-reviews/0767927567/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful?ie=UTF8&coliid=&showViewpoints=1&colid=&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

  554. “No matter what you guys decide to pull out of your derrier each day, Betty’s “unescape” back into the FLDS is a thorn in the side of the anti-polygamy propaganda campaign.”

    No it’s not. We understand how brain washing works. Get over it. The FLDS is overplaying this one.

  555. Good grief–Ali–haven’t we had enough talk of Carolyn’s leaving? She’s out–it’s over…get over it…
    She left with ALL her children…case closed!!!!!!!!!!
    Actually–it makes no difference to me when she left…2 in the afternoon or 2 in the morning…what’s it matter???…she’s out of that cult–she’s happy!!!!!!!!

  556. “She did leave in the middle of the night and yes she had to return to the house for her children, but that was during the Escape. She couldnt usher them all out at once, she went back last for her handicapped son.

    (she has eight children total)
    ========================================
    Ta hell? What I just read didn’t say she returned for any of her children but took them all at once.”

    She got all of the children into the van, went back into the house for her handicapped child, then Betty ran back into the house and she had to go back for her. So she went into and out of the house several times that night. She never left the area entirely and then returned for them.

    “========================================
    She left in the middle of the night, with her children, no gas, no money but a heck of alot of courage.
    =========================================
    Perhaps so or perhaps she embellished her story a bit to sell more books. No way to know really.”

    Yes, you’re right about that. On the other hand, how small minded, mean, and FLDS of you to make sure to point that out. Your so snarky and phony!

    “===========================================
    Had my husband wanted me to forgo medical care for my severely sick child and the end result would have been my child’s death, you can just bet I would have left too.
    ================================================
    I thought her stated reason for leaving was she didn’t want her children to marry young?”

    As with most separations and divorces there were undoubtedly many reasons she decided to call it quits. Yes, Warren’s limbo trick with the age of marriage was one. I’m sure Merril’s attitude about his child was something that destroyed her faith in her husband and in the claims of a loving “Heavenly Father”. But you keep nitpicking. Everyone needs a hobby and small minded people tend to stick with small minded hobbys like gossip, spreading rumors and talking trash about people they are far inferior to.

  557. Some quotes from the reviews on Amazon:

    “Anyone who claims that FLDS is benignly expressing “Freedom of Religion” should read this book and rethink the idea that freedom of religion means the government should not interfere while others are being abused.”

    “It is a fascinating look inside one of the most secretive and destructive cults in America, and by the end you find yourself wondering how this group manages to exist and evade the law”

    ‘Religion is not meant to be a prison, but with the FLDS, religion is synonymous with crime.”

    “While autobiographies of apostates should be read with some trepidation, I found Carolyn Jessop’s account of her life inside the FLDS community to be very balanced and believable. Her harrowing tale highlights the fact that plural marriage is a breeding ground for violence because of the intense competition within families for scarce resources, including not only material goods, such as food, shelter, and clothing, but more spiritually nourishing requirements such as parental love, a feeling of safety, and individuation.”

  558. “How do you know it’s not in whole or in part fiction?”

    Perhaps because Warren’s dictations backed up much, if not all, of what apostates have been telling us for years.

    Just because you have a vested interest in disseminating distortions and untruths it doesn’t follow that everyone does. You really shouldn’t judge others by your own yardstick. Do you have any REAL reason to believe she has lied? Or is it just what you want to believe?

  559. Ali

    You want fiction, read THE SAFETY NET PRIMER”

    There is plenty of fiction there!

    Like

    “We encourage our children to graduate early and get a head start on college”

    HMMM how many YFZ elite residents were attending college, Ali!?!?

  560. Also, apostates have a tendency to agree with each other, even if they are separated by place and time and don’t know each other before they leave.

  561. Which sister wives said she left during the day, your source?

    This was posted by some flds women last year, I think it was “Rose” or “Stence” on Brooke’s blog, no I wouldn’t know where it is buried now.

    CaJim, are you still smarting over your good friend Buster’s exposure for going on the record that he desires the literal extermination of the FLDS people?
    Maybe he was in a bad mood that day and didn’t really mean what he said to Suzan Mazur…you know, just pontificating, ranting or something. Sometimes we say and write things that just don’t come out the way we intended.

    When I was 12 years old, some friends and I broke in and stole the diary of a neighborhood girl. Her and her family was out of town at the time and left their back door unlocked. Anyway, we all took turns reading her diary and passing to someone else each day so they could read it.. Her diary was full of juicy stuff, she described in minute detail the make out sessions she had with my stepbrother-how great it felt, even said she and another girl kissed each other and that she was a “lessie”. Before long, all the kids in the neighborhood knew what she wrote in her diary, talk about a violation of privacy. As it turned out, the stuff about my brother was true, the “lessie” stuff was pure fantasy and she wrote it down in a fit of anger about something-don’t remember the details now. The moral of the story: Just because something is written down doesn’t mean it actually happened or that is how the author actually felt.

  562. duane

    so your sourse is Rose or Stence – hmmm yeah, you got good sources allrighty! They blow anymore smoke up your skirt?

    TRUTH – Carolyn escaped

    TRUTH – Merril has paid NOTHING to support his kids.

    TRUTH – 15 cases going to trial.

    Including the monster Carolyn ESCAPED FROM, WHO IS CHARGED WITH MARRYING HIS OWN 12 YR OLD DAUGHTER TO WARREN JEFFS.

    MERRIL JESSOP’S GOLDEDN YEARS WILL BE SPENT AT THE “TEXAS RETIREMENT HOME FOR EVIL MEN”.

  563. Stamp, there is no reason why they would lie and even confirmed Carloyn left on her own and used deception; it just didn’t happen in the middle of the night.

  564. Gosh, duane, what a charming story of your child hood. Entering someone elses home and passing around a girl’s diary. And your point was that people might ‘lie’ to their diary. I sense that you were upset that she wasn’t really ‘lessie’ as you so quaintly call it.

  565. Of COURSE there is a reason they would lie! They want to discredit Carolyn and make her seem like a bad witness. Since she’s going to court against the number 2 guy and all. They lie about her, Dan Fischer and Elissa all the time.

  566. “No doubt that is the truth as there would be absolutely no motive for them to lie about it.”

    Um, discrediting the apostate would be a “good” reason in their minds I’m sure.

  567. BTW CaJim, since you are a PI…What would happen if I hired two private investigators to follow each other?

  568. duane

    Do you not understand? She was watched and not allowed to go out during the day trips with “ALL” of her kids. Even when she worked the motel, she had to leave some behind for extended periods.

    We have seen the FLDS lie, lie and lie again. Yet you would rather re-victimize a victim?

    Certainly you arent saying that Merril gassed up her car, gave her $1,000 in pocket money, and he and the sister wives helped her load up her van and waved goodbye?

    LMFAO!

    SHE ESCAPED. GET OVER IT!

  569. Entering someone elses home and passing around a girl’s diary. And your point was that people might ‘lie’ to their diary. I sense that you were upset that she wasn’t really ‘lessie’ as you so quaintly call it.

    Actually Betty, I didn’t take the diary, now I remember, my gf and I snuck into the house and went to her bedroom to make out, that is when we noticed the diary on her dresser. My gf took it, went home and read it, then called us and told my brothers and I what was in it, we didn’t believe her so she snuck out of her house, came over and tossed the diary thru our 2nd story bedroom window as it was past our curfew. Hey I was only 12 years old.

    Betty, sorry if I got your hopes up but to be honest, 2 girls don’t do much for me and my wife is a flaming hetero.

  570. Stamp, she said she was going to the dentist. I find that more plausible than trying to sneak out of a house full of sister wives and children in the middle of the night.

  571. BTW CaJim, since you are a PI…What would happen if I hired two private investigators to follow each other?

    duane said this on August 24, 2009 at 1:04 PM

    ===================

    Obviously, you’d simply be wasting your money, like Warren is with his 15 trials coming up. He could plead guilty save millions and get easier sentences – BUT NO – they want hard time, evidently to prove a point.

    “THEY ARE STUPID!”

  572. “Gosh, duane, what a charming story of your child hood. Entering someone elses home and passing around a girl’s diary. And your point was that people might ‘lie’ to their diary. I sense that you were upset that she wasn’t really ‘lessie’ as you so quaintly call it.”

    Duane seems to have a million of these gems showing what a perverted childhood he had. No wonder he’s fine with Warren’s depiciton of all of America as a place where “none do good”, it’s all he knows.

    Duane, newsflash, just because you have never had a moral compass it doesn’t follow that everyone is lacking in that department.

    Yes, while everything that is written down isn’t true, neither is everything that is said by the FLDS. In fact, their track record stinks. As for Rose and Stence, they were (at best) relaying second hand information. Neither of them were sister wives of Carolyn. Like Pliggy, they lack credible first hand knowledge.

  573. Duh duane PI might mean Private Investigator or in my case could mean Pilot Instructor? Guess, again can’t believe everything you read and if you wrote it I don’t believe it at all.

  574. She wasnt allowed to take ALL her children with her, duane! and her car was running on fumes! She ran out of gas before she got out of town!

    READ THE BOOK!

  575. Oh something else, if these men and women were truly living in a state of fear and terror, would we have known by now? The state has all of the personal diaries and journals of eveyone who resided at YFZ, even released portions of TJeff’s diary, no doubt they read them all from cover to cover.

  576. Street / Delete

  577. Well interesting decision today by Judge Denise Lindberg, she’s approved the sale of the Berry Knoll site. Guess all that charm WeeWillie used on Centennial Park folks didn’t create a glow of friendship that would last very long. Maybe, Elissa Wall guaranteed that she wouldn’t slap that property title with a ‘lis pendens’ so the sale would go through.

  578. Street / delete

  579. “The only novel we had to read was Silas Marner, most BORING book I ever read!!!!!”

    Ohhh DD, I read Silas Marner for the first time when I was 8 years old, and it is my all time most favorite book in the world, LOL!

    I still re-read it almost every summer.

  580. Admin, is there any way to get the last sentence to not be eclipsed by people’s avatar?

  581. Greetings, sorry, I wasn’t ignoring your question, just busy. No, we can’t move yet — it looks like our move date will be September 1st if we’re lucky. (Yay, the day we’re supposed to be out we MIGHT be able to move.) And I’m still wading through the piles of junk I took with me when I moved here. This time a lot of it is getting thrown out, though. I had a lot of stuff that I was hanging onto from the children’s childhood that I am turning over to them to keep or take. Actually, they’re really enjoying their elementary school pictures and stories and test scores that I saved. My son is in awe of how much his oldest boy looks like him. Except for his blond curls Aidan is the spitting image of his dad at the same age. (Of course I’ve been telling them that for years, but what do I know.) lol

  582. Cement, not exactly sure of your request to edit, care to nominate, date and time post?

  583. Babbling Brooke has a new article at SLTrib, Judge Lindburg just approved Berry Knoll sale.

  584. “Hey, we all pulled pigtails, and the girls loved it.”

    No. Really. We didn’t. We yelled and told you to stop it. No means no.

  585. I think he’s asking to format how an individual post is laid out on the page so that the picture from each person does not overlay the text of their post.

  586. cement

    Thanks for the comment. This blog is on a “template” which was constructed with code that creates that glitch.

    (meaning that those posts with avatars lose the last letters or word to the avatar)

    Avatars can be disabled, but moving them isnt an easy option. If enough people want them removed, we can do that.

    The thing about keeping them is it makes it easier to find ones place as it gives a good visual clue of ones place, albeit with the glitch of losing some letters.

    Votes anyone?

  587. I’m willing to work around it. I hate coding HTML.

  588. Just a comment on how to read some of them; copy and paste into notepad can get the last word, but usually, one can figure it out, and there aren’t that many that have problems.

  589. Also if those that have avatars, hit the Enter bar twice at the end of your message, that should give the text room.

    Betty, Rebeckah, Greetings 🙂

    Also just a word processing note, with the small text, its easier to read paragraphs if you also hit the Enter bar at the end of sentences, giving a little space so its easier to read.

    Thanks

  590. “No matter what you guys decide to pull out of your derrier each day, Betty’s “unescape” back into the FLDS is a thorn in the side of the anti-polygamy propaganda campaign.”

    Clawar and Rivlin identify eight stages of the programming- brainwashing process, which culminates in severe Parental Alienation Syndrome (7). Recognizing the power imbalance between parent and child, they view the process as driven by the alienating parent who induces the child’s compliance on a step by step basis:

    1) A thematic focus to be shared by the programming parent and child emerges or is chosen. This may be tied to a more or less formal ideology relating to the family, religion, or ethnicity;

  591. I trust Judge Lindberg made a wise decision. Good for her!

  592. Well this gives the FLDS the opportunity to keep this holy sacred sand dune and knobby rock hill.

    Lets see how the bidding goes!

  593. Ohhh wait. Should we pay the 5 mil in IRS tax liens first?

    And all those pesky attorneys Warren is hiring?

  594. You know stamp, I found plenty of documentation where Rulon Jeffs turned all the properties over to Fred Jessop before his death that were in UEPtrust. But I never found ONE document in which any transfers were in Warren Jeffs name….
    Ive still yet to find where Parley Harker turned all the property he owned over to Warren Jeffs either… Not ONE document… Did Warren steal the property after Parley died?

  595. I just got word that the Utah Bar has approved an application for Natalie Malonis to appear pro hoc vice in the child support case between Carolyn and Merril…

    Whatcha want to bet that Merril isn’t very happy now?

    More on it at my blog.

  596. THANKS TBM

    You da man!

  597. DD

    I beleive that the Harker farms may be in IRON county!

    I know its right on the line!

  598. Geee, how long do you guess it will take for the Warrenite cheering section to be chanting about the incompetent Judge listening to the child support lawsuit between Carolyn and F. Merril Jessop? Maybe they await the second court appearance but they usually start screaming after the first appearance. With N. Malonis as pro hoc vice, they’re sure to be hollering sooner than later. Maybe The good Bishop will find it in his power to stay awake and pay attention this time during the questioning, after all it will be his wallet that is being discussed.

  599. duane said: The state has all of the personal diaries and journals of eveyone who resided at YFZ, even released portions of TJeff’s diary, no doubt they read them all from cover to cover.

    I read, in one of the book by an “escapee”, that their journals/diaries were not all that private and could be read by the husband/prophet at any time. Therefore….all that was written had to be sweetness and light. If true feelings were written, there’d be hell to pay!

  600. It was about 10 minutes before “Concerned” on brooke’s blaugh said that Malonis was unethical and should have her right to practice law revoked….for representing a woman in a child support dispute! We have now gotten to really absurd levels of selective blindness.

  601. Stamp said:”Walton

    John Wayman?

    He is a big funder, perhaps THE biggest, and you know what they say, money talks and bullshit walks!”

    I keep telling you Stamp you do have such a way.:)

    I don’t think Wayman can be in charge either. I think the Feds might be interested in his “payroll taxes” or the very least the paper work that goes behind it all. jmo

    http://www.religionnewsblog.com/19430/polygamy-31

    Wayman hasn’t been mentioned much since all this began. I am wondering if he is whistling or singing like a bird?

    🙂

  602. Walton

    Plus he lives down in Vegas. Perhaps why Warren sent him out of town, keep the powerful from getting big britches!?!?

    I still tend to think its being run by committee, hence the fact no name has popped out.

    There are enough there riding the fence IMHO whom would rat out someone esp if they didnt approve.

    Either way there has to be some odd dynamics, as in, have they tossed Warren to the wind?

  603. I still say the lil’ Red Escalade, it’s contents and Warren’s fits thereafter tells the tale on the records, keys and cell phone/GPS system to give the prerequisite map to the boneyard of information, after that it has all been forensic accounting and unpublicized investigating. RICO and Mann Act(s) cases having been developing ever since and the Grand Jury indictments are just the tip of the iceberg.

  604. cajlM << if I have spelled your name wrong I am sorry. I agree. Icebergs melting and glass houses breaking.

    Do you think that there will be anything in there that will surprise me?

  605. Seeing Warren in shorts and black socks not only surprised everybody, it shocked them into a 1965 fashion faux paus.

  606. Yeah. Shorts and black socks. Pretty disgusting, really.

  607. Stamp if they have tossed Warren to the wind as you say wouldn’t they be looking past Warren and into Rulons dealings?

    If Warren wasn’t the Prophet then could it be that Rulon wasn’t a Prophet? And if Rulon wasn’t a Prophet who should have been?

    The 900 acres bought by the AUB is being set up for something.
    The newly worded ” primer” is leading into something.
    Shurtleff and his wishy washy statements have been leaning towards an open understanding to what?

  608. Well I guess the red wigs did take me back a bit. I can almost see it.

    All dressed up and no where to go. lol

  609. If Willie is holding hands with Shurtleff, Mary Batchelor and Heidi Mattingly Kingston and those Allred boys are doing the two step it seems to me that the whole mess starts all over but in a different clan.

  610. Weird thang about John Wayman,you can’t find out anything about him…

  611. Willie is just a pawn, NO WAY he is the new prophet, and to be honest, Im not believing Warren is giving up HIS keys anytime soon, LOL

  612. Stamp you are right, Harker farm is in Beryl, Utah – and that is indeed Iron County.

  613. Mary Batchelor doesn’t even live the plural life, she used to, but she decided she wanted to be the ONLY wife.

  614. In reading today’s actual court order from Judge Lindberg, I love this part, guess weewillie opened mouth and inserted foot yet again:

    “Second, in scheduling the July 29th hearing the Court wanted to provide an opportunity for representatives with varying viewpoints to comment on the proposed sale. As such, the hearing was deliberately structured to be informal so that individuals would be encouraged to speak freely. The inescapable consequence of such format was that some of the comments were not necessarily relevant to the question whether the sale of the Property was appropriate. Additionally, not all of the comments were factually accurate.12 The Court will not respond to specific comments or allegations except to say that while the Court has considered all comments, it gave greatest weight to those directly relevant to the proposed sale.

    Intemperate or abusive comments were given no weight.”

    I’ll repeat that last line just for you weewillie:

    “Intemperate or abusive comments were given NO (hear that NO) weight”

  615. The next question is whether an unnamed (but large) party will vandalize Berry Knoll when it’s transferred to its new owners.

    I would rather keep my avatar than have readable posts. I’m my own best fan.

  616. Lady guess Judge Lindberg is just like the rest of the rational world, Fat Willie the Thug opens his mouth and like the rest of us all the Judge could hear was “blah, blah, lie, lie, lie, do it my way or i’ll beat you up, burp, hand me another donut”

  617. HAHAHAHAHAH anon

  618. I’m pretty excited by all the developments but I got up really early, did my exercise, wrestled with the scanner most of the day and I’m toast. I think I will have a glass of wine with my hubby and fall asleep.

    I’m leaving space for the avatar.

  619. I doubt he knows what ‘intemperate’ means. And I’m sure he thinks he’s right and the rest of the world is wrong.

  620. Me too, Betty. Posting this, then sleep.

    If it’s true, it’s interesting that Malonis is representing Carolyn Jessop. Malonis certainly knows as much about Merril Jessop as anyone.

    I’ve said before that if I needed a lawyer, I’d hire her. She was tremendously clever and fierce on behalf of her client. The only thing I wish she’d done differently would have been to periodically rap Wee Willie on the side of his skull as she was deposing him.

    But perhaps that’s not done in Texas.

  621. The only inside person Brooke can evidently speak to is Willie Jessop who actually has no standing at all. I read the ruling. Judge Lindberg seemed to spell it all out very clearly to me.
    Amoung the issues she had, was, Where were FLDS leadership for the last 4 yrs? No one answered to anything! No one took responsibility for anything!

  622. LMAO

    Judge Lindberg backhanded Brookes FLDS BFF.

    HA HA HA HAH A HA HA!

  623. Judge Denise Lindberg, whom her critics claimed would never dare to decide an UEPTrust disposition, has proven that the Court is not only firmly in control of effective and decisive oversite but has endorsed the decisions and actions of Bruce Wisan. See if the on-the-job training for WeeWillie and company continues to bungle their efforts and employ ineffective tactics thinking they will apply but continue to swamp the situation.

  624. Any bets on how soon it will be before Willie the Toad starts Croaking Intemperate and abusive word salad again?

  625. OOPS

    Not long!

    TWIT

    “FLDS spokesman Willie Jessop told me a few minutes ago he is “disappointed in the judicial integrity of the court” and the FLDS will pursue “every legal remedy possible.””

    Too bad they dont pursue every common sense remedy possible!

  626. Of course he is disappointed. His whole life is one sorry disappointment. I’m sure he views the judge as an uppity female who doesn’t know her place…barefoot, pregnant and subservient. How dare she tell him what he can and cannot steal from his sheeple!

  627. Stamp you gotta remember that Willie is a demolition contractor so some of these destructive results is just because he loves explosions and implosions.

  628. The story about Judge Lindberg’s decision reminds me why I don’t visit the SL Tribune much anymore. It opened by describing Berry Knoll as “a polygamous group’s historic farm” and went downhill from there.

    Perhaps Brooke Adams has burned so many bridges that she has no access to any viewpoint other than the FLDS’, making it impossible for her to write an unbiased story.

    I don’t expect my Jack Russell to write haiku, and I don’t expect Willie Jessop to be reasonable, either.

  629. Nah, the judge is probably too old to be pregnant. She needs to be living elsewhere writing books to teach preschool kids to read and canning peaches. Or maybe running a Tupperware party.

  630. The pro-FLDS folk won’t talk to her because she printed part of Jeff’s dictations. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

  631. The “Soapy Sales” article was her peace offering to get in with the FLDS and Bile Mudpuppy.

    And what are the thanks she gets? LMAO

  632. I just finished reading Dorothy Allred Solomon’s book “Daughters of the Saints”.

    On the back cover of the book it states:

    Solomon, herself monogamous, broke with the fundamentalist group over her desire for equality and her inability to reconcile the polygamist doctrine with the vastly different laws of the state.

    Could we have said it any better? Or better yet, isn’t that what we have all been saying?

    Her desire for equality.

    Inability to reconcile the doctrine with the laws of the state.

    Interesting.

  633. Brooke quit interviewing the “apostates” for her articles when one of them stated “The raid in Texas was worth it if it can prevent even one underaged marriage.” That wan’t me, but reported to me by the “apostate” regularly interviewed, so take it as second-hand.

  634. Cement, just because soemone leaves a community religious or secular doesn’t make that person an apostate, traitor, etc. It just means they found something the beleived in more, or wanted to better themselves. Ive talked to xflds who still follow or live the life of their faith, they just don’t take part in the corruption of the community they came from any longer.

  635. cement

    Any word if there is a single new leader, or if it is run by committee?

    Or if Warren is still steering the wheel in some ways?

  636. I have a new leader–it’s me.

    I have no idea.

  637. Deputydog, technically someone who rejected the FLDS prophet (who was a member of the group) is “apostate”. Pliggy wasn’t apostate because he didn’t reject Warren — he was repenting from afar. Cement is apostate because he rejected the tenets he disagreed with. Having a mind of your own makes you apostate. (Personally, I would find being called an “apostate” to be a compliment as it means I have a brain and will and used them.)

  638. “The raid in Texas was worth it if it can prevent even one underaged marriage.”

    IS THE SAME AS

    “Better that ten innocent people should suffer than one spy get away. When you cut down the forest, woodchips fly”

    –Nikolai Yezhov, Soviet Union, NKVD Chief 1936-39.

  639. Yes, but the raid in Texas was because the innocent were suffering.

    Just because alot of the children were too young to speak of the abuse, their little bodies told the story for them, didn’t it? In the bruises, the broken bones, the inability to hold their bowels, it all bespeaks abuse.

    The young girls with babies or pregnant tell their own story of abuse. Can you imagine any 12-17 year old wanting a man old enough to be her grandfather kissing her and touching her in an intimate way? You think they RUN to those weddings or quietly accept a life of being miserable, bearing some man’s children they don’t love?

  640. No, duane, it’s not. And saying that it is not only an insults the people of Stalin’s purge whose suffering involved death, life long exile, permanent loss of family members, torture and work camps but also an insult to the young girls of the FLDS whose lives are robbed from them.

    Did you know that one fourth of all the military aged men in Russia died during Stalin’s era? One fourth. You ignorant shill.

    Who did your reading for you? Mudpucky or Pliggy? Anybody want to bet that that quote comes from someone else’s blog yesterday or today?

  641. cement

    From what I gather even the FLDS dont know who is leading them around by the nose any more!

  642. duane

    Child rape is heinous.

    Letting the community become aware of what they risk with that continued behavior hurt no one – but surely saved more children from FLDS rapists!

  643. Over on Brookes Blaugh, she is so desperate for pro-plyg commentary she approved this post which incites arson.

    AMAZING

    ——
    CHansen1118 says:

    August 24, 2009 at 7:08 pm

    Amen, Willy! Sue them every which way but loose! Tie up the property so that it and any other property that is to be sold will never see a bidder. Make all of them mourn the day they ever got involved.

    And, of course, using the gentile’s tactics, if anything ever does get to a final sale date, make sure it is burned to the ground or is made worthless so that the government or any other person seeking to profit from it won’t see anything for their complicity in this raping of the FLDS people by Wisan, his thugs, Lindberg, Shirtless, and company.”

  644. http://166.70.44.68/blogs/plurallife/2009/08/lindbergs-ruling-on-berry-knoll/comment-page-1/#comment-43938

    It may not be up long once she re-reads it. Is she that STOOPID?

  645. She’s had some perfectly harmless posts by me blocked; but she let this one through. I’m guessing she really wants the FLDS to keep talking to her and has to do some sucking up and the expense of being balanced and rational.

  646. “Did you know that one fourth of all the military aged men in Russia died during Stalin’s era? One fourth.”

    Yes, and did you know Stalin purged nearly half of the Red army’s officers in the late 30’s. How about 10-15,0000,000 deaths in the Ukraine during the forced collectivisation in the early 30’s. I’ve read numerous books on the Soviet Union and Stalin. It is one of my favorite subjects.

    They did all this becasue they were creating a Utopia. These deaths were necessary and was for the good of the country.

    As NY Times correspondent Walter Duranty put it when reporting favorably on Stalin’s Russia:
    “You can’t Make an Omelette without Breaking a Few Eggs.”

    So of course selling off the UEP is a good thing. I we eventually have to send police and soldiers into Short Creek and forcibly evict all the men, women, and children from their homes, it will all be “for their own good”. Many eggs will have to be broken and our society will be better off once this “cleansing” is accomplished. Right??

  647. I dont know if she actually read it. We’ll see… the post violates any number of rules and could point LE to that freak.

    Nothing like getting yourself into an FBI file!

    “make sure it is burned to the ground or is made worthless so that the government or any other person seeking to profit from it won’t see anything”

  648. duane

    There is a huge amount of resources in UEP land that would have to be sold before they get down to the homes.

    But the FLDS want to cut off their nose to spite their face.

    Its a dilemma caused by themselves unto themselves. Over the decades they have had issues amongst themselves, why do you think they suddenly are so angelic?

    Shartcrick is condemned by God anwyway, according to Warren, and that includes the people who stay.

    If you are a beleiver in Warren, why would you want to stay there?

  649. Oh and duane

    Your comparisons of Russia dont apply, unless you want to admit that the FLDS are intolerant of anybody whom doesnt kiss the prophets shoes.

    Ask Pligkid, his mother wont even talk to him unless he pledges allegiance to Warren.

    The FLDS have been the ones who condemn those who cant follow the broken trail.

  650. duane,

    No one has died. No one is advocating that. Don’t be a jerk.

  651. “Answer Them Nothing” is the policy, Judge Denise Lindberg through all of these proceedings, which began with Warren S. Jeffs’ flight from justice, never has produced someone in authority to speak on behalf of the FLDS Church. You leave a possession to go to waste and the law will decide in lieu of the owner, completely proper and legal. So who’s the party following the answer them with silence and how’s that tactic working for you? I trust the Courts in Texas, South Dakota, Idaho, Nevada and Colorado are seeing how the trusts are administrated, used in the furtherance of illegal activities and fully defiant of existing legal statutes. Treason is a proper description of this conduct and a Federal response is the correct public authority(s) to perform it.

  652. Gee, I wonder if Chansen looks at all like the guy on the tape of the Texas Governor’s mansion?

  653. Betty, you just have to understand that this response is well founded amongst polygamists when confronted by lawful authorities. The Prophet Brigham Young , himself, threatened to burn Salt Lake City to the ground if a Federal cavalry sent to preserve/establish order in the then territory. This theocracy is in direct defiance to our Law & Order and their actions speak louder than their words.

  654. And of course Warren claiming Shartcrick and the remaining sheeples as rejected of God didnt help.

    Good point Cajim, the FLDS couldnt put forward anyone with authority, only some private members who didnt represent the church but rather served to give obtuse lip service.

    With all the money spent on all this, it boils down to a wasted opportunity!

  655. Trust deci or dizzy duane to post totally irrelevant material. Also using his normal tactic of ascribing emotions, motives, etc to other people, then he attacks them for having those things he ascribed to them. What a clown.

  656. duanes and the flds Modus Operendi is:

    “If making sense doesnt work, try NONsense!”

    ( Does Bill Muckypup tutor them, or is it the other way around..? )

  657. Cement said:

    “I have a new leader–it’s me.

    I have no idea.”

    Very well said Cement. And that is the way it should be. imo

  658. It’s more about Theocracy vs. Democracy, the Prophet vs. the governor and the Fanatical Zealot minority vs. the Established Governing majority. Their form of governance doesn’t need or want a Constitution and chooses ‘One Man Rule’ and our form of governance is duly elected and doesn’t need or want a Prophet and prefers a representative form of representation. Look to the flag we fly it at every public building, on every school grounds, over our cemeteries, professional ball fields and the 4th of July. Look at the YFZ Ranch do you see any flags? do you think that it is just another oversight or does it reveal their truer agenda. ‘Answer Them Nothing’ is their truer agenda dictated to them by a ‘One Man Rule’ in defiance of our Law & Order. The defiance is real their hidden agenda becomes more treasonous at every impasse they demonstrate rising defenses and they need to be brought to Justice and given the full measure of criminal findings and sentencing.
    Answering nothing and defining a leader as the unquestioned ruler has resulted in his capture, first conviction and multiple additional charges which leaves the outcome in little doubt and the criminal crime wave into full exposure. Let them continue their defiant course, challenging our Law & Order and pay the prices that such defiance of Justice are charged for their common criminality.

  659. caJim

    Well you have a point there – the continued crime wave finally caught up with them, and now they are paying in ways they never dreamed.

    But isnt that the way it works,

    Oh what a tangled web we weave,

    When first we practise to deceive!

  660. That was “Awesomely” said, CaJim, and I believe your right on every point.

  661. That “tangled web” has a long, long history.

    “Calumny and scandal are among the readiest of the Mormon weapons, and its leaders are specially skilled in their use, as every person who has ever thwarted Brigham Young, or one of his satellites, knows to his or her sorrow. They not only lie themselves, but they hire others to do it for them. Occasionally, in this game of mud-throwing, they get bespattered, but not until they have bedaubed their victim very thoroughly.”

    pp. 309-310, Wife No. 19: A Life in Bondage, the 1875 memoir of Ann-Eliza Young

  662. More of that tangled web:

    “All of us lived in the paradox of too much expectation crowded into too little space. We were tightly swaddled in ritual and doctrinally protected from ourselves; still we were charged to “remember who you are” while fenced off from the outside world.

    We had no way of learning how to be at once individuals and part of the greater whole.

    As we ventured into adulthood, we lost our way and became strangers to each other and to ourselves.”

    pg 29, “Daughters of the Saints” by Dorothy Allred Solomon

  663. Mississippi Girl, that’s a powerful book. I read the hardcover edition, which was titled Predators, Prey and Other Kinfolk (IMO a better title than the paperback). Dorothy Allred Solomon is the daughter of Rulon C. Allred, the fundamentalist leader assassinated at the order of Ervil LeBaron in the late 1970s. The Allred Group is also known as the Apostolic United Brethren (AUB).

  664. “Look to the flag we fly it at every public building, on every school grounds, over our cemeteries, professional ball fields and the 4th of July. Look at the YFZ Ranch do you see any flags?”

    They used to celebrate the 4th of July until Warren canceled it citing the increasing attacks against them by the government and what they refere to as “the mob”.
    Many short creekers served with honor in our past wars. WW1, WW2, Korea, and Vietnam, some paid the ultimate price, others were seriously wounded.

    That aside, must they prove their loyalty? Hmmm, I don’t display an american flag, should I buy one and hang in the front so nationalists like CaJim won’t suspect me of beng a spy or traitor?

  665. “I read, in one of the book by an “escapee”, that their journals/diaries were not all that private and could be read by the husband/prophet at any time. Therefore….all that was written had to be sweetness and light. If true feelings were written, there’d be hell to pay!”

    I knew someone would say this. Amazing the lengths one will go to rational what would normally be despicable behavior. Lets assume that women’s journals could be read. There is not a shred of evidence that Warren read the personal diaries of the men…or women for that matter. He wouldn’t have the time to do it anyway.

    Cement is ex-flds who is now against them. If these people truly lived in fear and terror, he would have already told us.

  666. Your right duane some folks leave no doubt as to who and what they are, you leave little doubt in me. Funny to call someone a ‘national’ did you have a hard time getting around American Patriot. Whatever brand of loyalty you claim to go by isn’t invested in the U.S. Constitution because you pass up every opportunity to state your belief in it.

  667. “So of course selling off the UEP is a good thing. I we eventually have to send police and soldiers into Short Creek and forcibly evict all the men, women, and children from their homes, it will all be “for their own good”. Many eggs will have to be broken and our society will be better off once this “cleansing” is accomplished. Right??”

    Good heavens, don’t you people EVER get tired of the melodrama and the apocalyptic predicitons of state mandated horror? They haven’t happened yet and all your pre-emptive whining does is make you look even more stupid and pathetic. No one has been evicted under the State’s rule although plenty were under Warren’s. No one died due to enforcement of the laws of the land, although a few have died suspiciously close to the times of their exing, albeit at their own hands. Your continued defense of abusers, and your comparisons to atrocities that compare more closely to Warren’s regime than anything the government has caused is truly sad. You are in serious need of a reality check, Duane. Sometimes I really wish there was some way to make men into women, just for a while.

  668. Please go to Open Discussion #12

Comments are closed.

 
%d bloggers like this: