FLDS IRS TAX LIENS – Partial Listing

Warrens Tax lien

Warrens lien

UPDATE:  Anyone can access the IRS tax liens, they are public record.  This list was hastily compiled and sent anonymously.   The names and companies were found in the public records, of which you can search here by clicking on the “Property Search” link in the header and entering a name and date range.  The IRS lien on Warren was taken directly from this site.  Its highly likely there will be another round of IRS tax liens being recorded this summer.  And this doesn’t include the liens levied in Mohave County,  AZ where most of the FLDS reside.

http://www.washco.utah.gov/contact.php

Advertisements

~ by FLDS TEXAS on August 7, 2009.

145 Responses to “FLDS IRS TAX LIENS – Partial Listing”

  1. Sheesh – the IRS came after me for $800.

    I wonder who Virginia Barlow is, and how she has so much income. Also curious as to how this list was compiled.

  2. OK – Add this $5 million to the 9 million they currently are spending on attorneys – hmmmm $14,000,000, thats a lot of food stamps!

  3. I think when Warren saw all these bills, he lost his cookies.

    Pun intended.

  4. It certainly would make me think twice about following a man that has put them in this position and then tries to “wuss” out of his punishment by not eating.

    If you can talk the talk ( and Warren certainly did ) you need to walk the walk.

    So many prophets to teach how to behave, so little time………

  5. near the creek

    It could very well be they are auditing everone now that they realize its a hotbed of Tax Evasion.

    Virginia’s name was probably used on documents to hide someones identity fruadulently.

    That kind of stuff comes out eventually, it certainly raises red flags huh?

  6. The men commonly list their wives as the principles of these corporations. Tonto Supply is being sued in Arizona right now, and Jozette Barlow is registered as the President/CEO of the company. Jozette is Fred Jessop Jr’s wife and has no clue about the operations of the company. It’s my understanding Jozette has been subpoenaed to testify when the hearings continue …that should be interesting.

  7. With the economy the way it is they are probably taking a hit like everyone else.

  8. Sure, taking a hit just like everyone else who hasn’t been paying their taxes.

    I think it’s a little more than just taking a hit.

    Amazing, the women are just good for breeding, home-making and child rearing but at the same time, they are running corporations/companies that they know nothing about.

    Who’s hiding behind whose skirt these days?

  9. Why would it be necessary to use one of your many wives’ names to be the OFFICIAL (on paperwork only) president?

    Why not use your own name?

    What are you hiding?

  10. I wonder if they have put any businesses in their wives’ names in order to qualify as a woman-owned business for preferential treatment when bidding on state/federal contracts?

  11. Sure, taking a hit just like everyone else who hasn’t been paying their taxes.
    ======================================================
    Sure, Lately I’ve seen more then one restaurant closed with a IRS closure sign posted on the front door.
    ===================================================
    Amazing, the women are just good for breeding, home-making and child rearing but at the same time, they are running corporations/companies that they know nothing about.
    =====================================================
    It shows the level of trust they have in their relationship when a woman runs the business while the husband is supervising the employees and running the equipment to keep that operation going.

  12. Alinusara, get real! Default Judgements against Flds have been going on since 2004.

  13. Case Number: J-0803-TR-20040372
    Title: ST OF AZ VS JEFFS EVELYN Category: Traffic
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 01/20/2004
    Judge: I. MCKAY HEATON Disposition Date: 03/12/2004

    EVELYN JEFFS DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 9/24/1984
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition
    S00084253 1 DUI; ALCOHOL DRUGS TOXIC VAPOR OR COMBINATION 03/12/2004 PLEA GUILTY/RESP SENT IMPOSED

    Case Activity
    Date Description Party
    06/30/2004 MAILED: CORRESPONDENCE D 1
    06/29/2004 RECEIVED: CORRESPONDENCE D 1
    06/10/2004 RSLT: ALCOHOL TREATMENT COMP.
    06/10/2004 CAL: ALCOHOL TREATMENT
    05/24/2004 RSLT: RECEIVED PAYMENT
    05/24/2004 CAL: PAYMENT DUE
    05/17/2004 RSLT: EXTENSION GIVEN
    05/17/2004 CAL: ALCOHOL TREATMENT
    05/11/2004 MAILED: CORRESPONDENCE D 1
    05/07/2004 CAL: PAYMENT DUE
    05/07/2004 RSLT: RECEIVED PAYMENT
    04/28/2004 MAILED: CORRESPONDENCE D 1
    04/28/2004 TELEPHONE CALL D 1
    04/28/2004 CAL: SENTENCE REVIEW HEARING
    04/28/2004 RSLT: COMPLIANCE
    04/27/2004 FUND: 2002 SURCHARGES (80%) D 1
    04/27/2004 FUND: 2002 PROBATION SURCHARGE D 1
    04/27/2004 TELEPHONE CALL D 1
    04/27/2004 FUND: BASE FINE D 1
    04/27/2004 RECEIVED: CORRESPONDENCE D 1
    04/26/2004 TELEPHONE CALL D 1
    04/26/2004 RECEIVED: CORRESPONDENCE D 1
    04/22/2004 RSLT: RECEIVED PAYMENT
    04/22/2004 CAL: PAYMENT DUE
    04/15/2004 CAL: ALCOHOL SCREENING
    04/15/2004 RSLT: ALCOHOL SCREENING COMP.
    04/14/2004 TELEPHONE CALL D 1
    04/08/2004 CAL: PAYMENT DUE
    04/08/2004 RSLT: RECEIVED PAYMENT
    04/06/2004 MAILED: CORRESPONDENCE D 1
    04/05/2004 FUND: 2002 PROBATION SURCHARGE D 1
    04/05/2004 FUND: 2002 SURCHARGES (80%) D 1
    04/05/2004 TELEPHONE CALL D 1
    04/05/2004 RECEIVED: CORRESPONDENCE D 1
    04/05/2004 FUND: BASE FINE D 1
    04/01/2004 RECEIVED: CORRESPONDENCE D 1
    03/24/2004 RECEIVED: CORRESPONDENCE D 1
    03/24/2004 TELEPHONE CALL D 1
    03/19/2004 MAILED: CORRESPONDENCE D 1
    03/19/2004 RECEIVED: CORRESPONDENCE D 1
    03/16/2004 FUND: BASE FINE D 1
    03/16/2004 MAILED: CORRESPONDENCE D 1
    03/16/2004 FUND: TIME PYMT $20 JCEF D 1
    03/16/2004 FUND: INCARCERATION FEES D 1
    03/16/2004 TELEPHONE CALL D 1
    03/16/2004 FUND: COURT ENHANCEMENT FEE D 1
    03/16/2004 RECEIVED: CORRESPONDENCE D 1
    03/16/2004 FUND: 2002 SURCHARGES (80%) D 1
    03/16/2004 FUND: 2002 PROBATION SURCHARGE D 1
    03/15/2004 RSLT: COMPLIANCE
    03/15/2004 CAL: TRIAL COUNTY ATTORNEY
    03/12/2004 DEFENDANT APPEARED D 1
    03/12/2004 ORDER VACATING TRIAL D 1
    03/11/2004 TELEPHONE CALL D 1
    03/09/2004 SUBPOENA DUCES TECUM D 1
    03/05/2004 RECEIVED: CORRESPONDENCE D 1
    02/20/2004 CAL: SUMMONS
    02/20/2004 RSLT: SUMMONS SENT
    02/19/2004 CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE RECVD D 1
    02/18/2004 RSLT: IA HELD: FEL/MISD/CR TR D 1
    02/18/2004 CAL: INITIAL APPEARANCE
    02/13/2004 TELEPHONE CALL D 1
    01/28/2004 MAILED: CORRESPONDENCE D 1
    01/20/2004 COMPLAINT FILED-UNIFORM CITATN D 1
    ******************************

    So the women are happy Alinusara??? This is just ONE woman, there are many more in FLDS just like this.

  14. Maybe they are hiding assets so they don’t have to pay child support, etc.

  15. Surely these women make sure their children are safe in cars? NOT!

    ************************************

    Case Number: J-0803-JV-20090014
    Title: ST OF AZ VS JESSOP NATALIE SU Category: Traffic
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 02/02/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 04/13/2009

    NATALIE SUE JESSOP DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 6/25/1992
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition
    D10875794 1 STOP SIGN VIOLATION 04/13/2009 COMPL DISMISSED BY COURT
    D10875794 2 NO VALID LICENSE 04/13/2009 PLEA GUILTY/RESP SENT IMPOSED
    D10875794 3 NO CURRENT REGISTRATION 04/13/2009 PLEA GUILTY/RESP SENT IMPOSED
    D10875794 4 CHILD PASSENGER RESTRAINT VIOLATION 04/13/2009 PLEA GUILTY/RESP SENT SUSPEND
    D10875794 5 NO MANDATORY INSURANCE 04/13/2009 COMPL DISMISSED BY COURT

  16. Case Number: J-0803-TR-20090331
    Title: ST OF AZ VS JESSOP REBECA J Category: Traffic
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 02/02/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 02/27/2009

    REBECCA J JESSOP DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 2/2/1964
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition
    D11080245 1 LOCAL CHARGE 02/27/2009 BAIL/DEPOSIT GIVEN/FORFEITED
    D11080245 2 FAIL TO PRODUCE EVIDENCE OF FINANCIAL RESP 02/27/2009 COMPL DISMISSED BY COURT

    *********************************************

    Case Number: J-0803-TR-20090300
    Title: ST OF AZ VS JESSOP SHARON H Category: Traffic
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 02/02/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 02/25/2009

    SHARON H JESSOP DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 5/5/1959
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition
    D10875795 1 PERMIT UNAUTHORIZED MINOR TO DRIVE 02/25/2009 PLEA GUILTY/RESP SENT IMPOSED

    ****************************************
    Case Number: J-0803-TR-20090253
    Title: ST OF AZ VS JESSOP VERLEEN BL Category: Traffic
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 01/21/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 02/18/2009

    VERLEEN BLACK JESSOP DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 6/16/1981
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition
    D11080717 1 CHILD PASSENGER RESTRAINT VIOLATION 02/18/2009 PLEA GUILTY/RESP SENT SUSPEND

    *****************************************

    Case Number: J-0803-TR-20042124
    Title: ST OF AZ VS JESSOP ZINA MARIE Category: Traffic
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 06/17/2004
    Judge: I. MCKAY HEATON Disposition Date: 06/23/2004

    ZINA MARIE JESSOP DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 4/14/1967
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition
    S00081573 1 CHILD PASSENGER RESTRAINT VIOLATION 06/23/2004 PLEA GUILTY/RESP SENT SUSPEND

  17. Case Number: J-0803-CR-20080073
    Title: ST OF AZ VS BARLOW CRYSTAL Category: Criminal
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 06/16/2008
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 09/22/2008

    CRYSTAL BARLOW DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 7/23/1955
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition
    NONE 1 LOCAL CHARGE 09/22/2008 PLEA GUILTY/RESP SENT SUSPEND

    Case Activity
    Date Description Party
    12/31/2009 CAL: MISCELLANEOUS
    08/14/2009 CAL: PRE TRIAL CONFERENCE
    07/06/2009 FAX SENT D 1
    07/02/2009 RECEIVED: CORRESPONDENCE
    07/01/2009 ORDER SENT: PRETRIAL D 1
    07/01/2009 DEFENDANT APPEARED D 1
    06/25/2009 TELEPHONE CALL
    06/24/2009 MESSAGE RECEIVED
    06/15/2009 MAILED: CORRESPONDENCE
    06/10/2009 CAL: INITIAL APPEARANCE
    06/10/2009 RSLT: FAILURE TO APPEAR
    06/10/2009 RECEIVED: FAX
    06/09/2009 TELEPHONE CALL
    05/13/2009 MAILED: CORRESPONDENCE
    05/13/2009 FAX SENT
    05/08/2009 PET TO REVOKE PROBATION
    04/22/2009 MAILED: CORRESPONDENCE
    04/15/2009 RECEIVED: CORRESPONDENCE
    12/03/2008 RECEIVED: FAX
    09/22/2008 FUND:COURT ENHANCEMENT FEE 84% D 1
    09/22/2008 FUND: BASE FINE (84%) D 1
    09/22/2008 FUND: PROB SURCH 2006 D 1
    09/22/2008 SENTENCING D 1
    09/22/2008 FUND: 2007 SURCHARGES (84%) D 1
    09/22/2008 CAL: HEARING
    09/22/2008 RSLT: HEARING HELD
    09/05/2008 ORDER CHANGE OF PLEA HEAR COP
    08/18/2008 CAL: HEARING
    08/18/2008 RSLT: EXTENSION GIVEN
    07/28/2008 RECEIVED: CORRESPONDENCE D 1
    07/21/2008 DEFENDANT APPEARED
    07/16/2008 RSLT: COMPLIANCE
    07/16/2008 CAL: INITIAL APPEARANCE
    07/08/2008 TELEPHONE CALL
    06/26/2008 SUMMONS ISSUED
    06/16/2008 COMPLAINT FILED-OTHER

  18. Case Number: J-0803-TR-20073159
    Title: ST OF AZ VS BARLOW DEBORAH MA Category: Traffic
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 10/24/2007
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date:

    DEBORAH MARIE BARLOW DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 10/20/1957
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition
    D10746700 1 NO VALID LICENSE 11/21/2008 FAILURE TO PAY

    Case Activity
    Date Description Party
    11/21/2008 SUSPENSION

  19. I’m rather amazed that the court is “dismissing” things like no insurance and rolling through a stop sign. And then to suspend the sentence on the failure to properly restrain their child?!? Yeah, they love their children, don’t they?

  20. Case Number: J-0803-TR-20081511
    Title: ST OF AZ VS BARLOW KATHLEEN Category: Traffic
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 04/16/2008
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date:

    KATHLEEN BARLOW DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 2/16/1968
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition
    D10877539 1 FAIL TO YIELD FROM STOP SIGN 01/05/2009 FAILURE TO APPEAR
    D10877539 2 NO VALID LICENSE 01/05/2009 FAILURE TO APPEAR

    Case Activity
    Date Description Party
    04/23/2009 RSLT: FAILURE TO APPEAR
    04/23/2009 CAL: HEARING

  21. Case Number: J-0803-TR-20071701
    Title: ST OF AZ VS BARLOW LINDA RAY Category: Traffic
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 07/17/2007
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 09/17/2007

    LINDA RAY BARLOW DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 3/31/1954
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition
    D10627666 1 DUI LIQUOR/DRUGS/VAPORS 1ST 09/17/2007 COMPL DISMISSED BY CTY ATTY
    NONE 2 EXCEED 85 MPH 09/17/2007 PLEA GUILTY/RESP SENT IMPOSED

  22. Most of the women have NO valid driver’s licenses,, no proof of any insurance,, and cited for failure to restrain children in the vehicle, And Im just posting the newer cases.

  23. Case Number: J-0803-JV-20090031
    Title: ST OF AZ VS BARLOW SARAH L Category: Criminal
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 04/08/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 05/20/2009

    SARAH L BARLOW DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 11/23/1991
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition
    S00124073 1 LIQUOR-TO MINOR BY LICENSEE/UNDERAGE CONSUMPTION

    *********
    interesting isn’t it, this sarah barlow was born in 1991, which would make her 17 in 2008)

  24. Case Number: J-0803-TR-20090271
    Title: ST OF AZ VS BARLOW SHAWNEE LE Category: Traffic
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 01/21/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 02/11/2009

    SHAWNEE LEE BARLOW DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 1/20/1976
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition
    D10875723 1 CHILD PASSENGER RESTRAINT VIOLATION 02/11/2009 PLEA GUILTY/RESP SENT SUSPEND
    D10875723 2 DRIVER REQUIRE RESTRAINT ON PASSENGER UNDER 16 YRS 02/11/2009 PLEA GUILTY/RESP SENT IMPOSED

  25. Maybe on the child passenger restraint it is like a warning. Texas changed the laws about what size kid had to be in a child safety seat and for the first while they gave warnings. As for the insurance, if they can show they had coverage at the time of the stop, even if it wasn’t in the car, it will usually be dismissed. Same with driver’s license.

    That Sarah Barlow one of underage consumption is troubling. We have a large problem of that where I live and the judges aren’t taking it easy on adult or child.

  26. Proud Texan, my point was this, where was Sara Barlow in 2008? Everyone kept saying there was NO such person when the raid happened.

  27. Seems to me like Kaluli is very well paid JP in moccasin county court.

  28. I wonder if they have put any businesses in their wives’ names in order to qualify as a woman-owned business for preferential treatment when bidding on state/federal contracts?

    TexasConnie said this on August 7, 2009 at 1:25 PM

    Of course.

    Kaluli is on the FLDS payroll. His uncle was also a JP in the same area and was known for his bias. I have this thought that his uncle was disqualified or disciplined or decertified or some such thing. Wisan got Kaluli disqualified for bias on his criminal trespass charges that are now pending. I believe Isaac Wyler is appealing the conviction that Kaluli handed down on his trespass case. There is a right to a new trial in district court after a trial in JP court, but rumor has it that Kaluli is trying to deny Wyler his appeal and trial de novo in district court.

  29. Kaluli should be investigated!

  30. Kalauli is a crook and should be cruising prison bars. With a new Sheriff station at the creek, things will change.

    This guy will have to face the music along with all the lawless losers floating around out there.

  31. yeah DD, I knew what you were getting at. She could be the right one and has now taken to drinking because she didn’t get rescued.

  32. Since Warren said Shortcrick was rejected by God, the entire damned place is probably drinking it up regardless of age!

    And “damned” is appropriate verbiage I guess, since that was Warrens point!

  33. BTW, if you want to verify the information above, go to:

    http://eweb.washco.utah.gov/recorder/web/login.jsp

    and type in:

    “Internal Revenue Service”

    I tried it—it works.

    But you can amuse yourself endlessly with variations. For example, I selected the category “default judgment” (just untick the box that says “Search Including All Document Types” and you get a pulldown box with all sorts of options) and put “Jessop” in the name category. I came up with a $380,923.07 judgment against Goodwork Construction (Richard S. Jessop and Jacob J. Steed).

    I don’t hold out much hope for divorce decrees, though. You have to actually marry ‘em to divorce ‘em.

  34. Stamp, there is no category called “Damned” in the Washington County Document Search. But there is one called “Bishop’s Certificate.” I’ll be d—ed if I understand what that means and why it is registered as a public document.

  35. By the way, if ordinary people like US can find this stuff, how come the IRS can’t? How come Brooke Adams can’t? How come the Senate Judiciary, AG’S for Utah , Arizona, and Texas can’t???

  36. The preferential treatment granted to the flds crime family – over and over – from all sorts of agencies – is frightening! Know anyone else the IRS is so lenient with? I don’t!

  37. The head Ramgoat taught his sheeple how to cheat! I see that his own IRS bill of SEVENTY SEVEN THOUSAND DOLLARS is up now too!

    But as millions run through his hands, none go to the Government to pay his debt!

  38. Which makes one wonder if the IRS is going to get itchy fingered and feeling like a UEP bene too?

  39. Underaged Sara Barlow? Oh maybe she was hustled out and up to ShortCreek by Merril. I read somewhere that something like that happened to a batch of pregnant underaged girls from YFZ.

  40. isn’t income tax evasion what brought al capone down?

  41. Texan

    Yes indeed, and it may well bring the FLDS down as well. The tax evasion seems to be another manner of “BLEEDING THE BEAST” which the PPSG so strongly denies is a matter of under the table theology.

    Next Up, the bankruptcy lists? Warren told many men to take out huge debt, give it to him, and file bankruptcy.

    It just gets deeper and deeper!

  42. In my neck of the woods we have problems with entirely mob run villages. If I remember correctly in some cases the feds have stepped in and put the towns into receivership to be run by non-elected officials until the mob ties are rooted out. I will look into this to see if I remember correctly.
    This would be different than the UEP issue because it relates solely to the civic government (police, fire departs etc., village managers) as a corrupt entity

    I posted this in the wrong thread so here it is again. So far am not finding what I thought I would find on this

  43. “Underaged Sara Barlow? Oh maybe she was hustled out and up to ShortCreek by Merril. I read somewhere that something like that happened to a batch of pregnant underaged girls from YFZ.”

    Not to be offensive, but this seems to be rumor mongering. It is certainly a possibility that it happened, but without evidence or an informant it is merely speculation. I don’t like rumor spreading in general because it tends to muddy the waters. I like this site because it tends to stick to facts that can be verified. (i.e. Court documents, IRS records, depositions and dictiations — that sort of thing.)

  44. Rebeckah: the Sarah Barlow in the complaint would have been 17 at the time of the raid and her arrest in Short Creek was earlier this year. One could speculate that she was the girl in the raid, although I suspect that the name “Sarah Barlow” is very common within the FLDS.

    Granny Toad and I (and a few others who post on this board) heard a credible story about girls at the ranch being secreted out before LE cordoned the place off. I don’t generally allude to this because we can’t share the details, but I believe it to be true.

    I don’t like the whole discussion because it violates my personal policy of not posting things which I can’t document. And you would be entirely right to dismiss her comment for the same reason.

    The only verification I can offer was the arrest of Levi Barlow Jeffs for not stopping when signaled to by LE. There was an underage girl with him. (Jeffs is WSJ’s son.) If Jeffs was caught attempting to ferry a girl out across the purple sage, did others try and succeed?

  45. I concur with GFNY. I just can’t quite seem to leave it alone.

  46. there was talk about that in eldorado and over by the radar facility, lots of traffic on usually mostly unused roads.

  47. does anyone know who levi barlow jeffs was driving with? i had heard it was teresa steed, but not from any official source.

  48. “Granny Toad and I (and a few others who post on this board) heard a credible story about girls at the ranch being secreted out before LE cordoned the place off. I don’t generally allude to this because we can’t share the details, but I believe it to be true.”

    I am inclined to lend more weight to your claim of a credible source because (contrary to the troll on Blue’s blog) I have found your posts to be well backed up and based on data. If you say you cannot give details, I must accept that too. I am well aware that it was certainly POSSIBLE for them to have ferried out underage, pregnant girls too. (I have a realistic idea of just how big the YFZ ranch is have been raised on a ranch myself.) I just hate vague, un-proven rumors and I don’t care which side uses them. Is there any chance that the person who told you the credible story will ever be able to go public with it and share it with the evidence? That would certainly be something to look forward to.

    I just wish that CPS hadn’t screwed things up so badly by treating the women like garbage. Perhaps none would have left still, but at least they’d have something good and kind to look on when (if?) their brains ever started working and they thought of leaving.

  49. CPS treated women like garbage? What’s that about?

  50. Everything I know about, CPS bent over backward, even allowing mothers to stay with children, accepting young ages as given, especially after all the lying about names, ages, whose child was whose and suchlike they’d been being scammed with, that caused them to need to get the 2nd warrant.

    They didn’t even know at the time about the hidden rooms in the homes that were learned about later.

  51. There were some pretty bad decisions made by CPS workers, GrannyTodd. I don’t say they were all horrible to the women, because that couldn’t possibly be true, but there WERE some pretty bad choices. For instance, lying to the women about separating them from their children they day they took the children away from their mothers was just plain wrong and if it were done to me I wouldn’t trust an organization like that again. The woman who had her baby while a deputy waiting in the room was really being improperly treated. Shining lights in the faces of women and children while they tried to sleep. Ignoring a crying child in favor of taking notes on the poor baby’s pain and what was being done about it. Things like that made CPS look like a bunch of uncaring bullies.

    Now I don’t claim that everyone in CPS was horrible. I think that many were trying and cared and I read stories by the FLDS women that tell of acts of kindness by various people during this occasion. But you know as well as I that people in CPS are as likely to be power abusers as police officers or other authority figures.

  52. Rebeckah, You are hearing ONE side of the story. No CPS personal gave interveiws about how they conducted their investigation to the public.
    YES, there were secret hiding places at the ranch. Yes there was another road leading out of the ranch. Yes, I do believe underage girls both pregnant and already married were taken out of the ranch in the three hours CPS had to wait to be let in to the compound. I don’t know exact number, but its between 15 and 25.
    I also do NOT believe all the children on that ranch belong to the women who claimed them.
    Do I believe FLDS knew about the raid beforehand, NO! But I do believe they were smart enough to have a contingency plan if a raid ever happened, and they used it the night of the raid.

  53. And I do NOT believe for one second, ANY SANE exams were given to baby boys. That’s a complete LIE from the get go!!! I don’t give rats ass what Bill Medvecky says.

  54. Just like all the lies FLDS have been telling about what a calm peaceful people they are, but when you check the courts, you will find they are NOT so calm and peaceful, and many have criminal records.

  55. Do you realize CPS did NOT have to let ONE mother go with their children to the shelters?? In Fact that’s very unsual for that to happen. We have seen deciet on the part of FLDS , and it continues.

  56. One issue I will agree with you on Rebecca is CPS is crazy as hell if they believe one little class with mothers and teens will make a bit of difference how they practice their underage marriages. They sent those children right back in the same damn mess they started with.

  57. i agree. cps didn’t have to let the mothers go, but decided to. i think one of the reasons they did was because when push came to shove and the women figured out that they could stay with their kids if they claimed to be younger, they did claim to be younger than they really were. that’s where a lot of confusion came in along with children calling more than one woman mother. if a man had 9 wives, his children had 9 mothers so when you asked johnny who his mother was he was confused because he didn’t have 1 mother, he had 9 so he didn’t know how to answer the question.

  58. OK now I see, Rebekah was taken in by some YFZ PR lies and anti-CPS garbage, that’s too bad. I was caught off guard by that poster’s misguided beliefs about “cps” being ogres. I just hadn’t read stories like that in a good while so it didn’t occur to me.

  59. Proud Texan did you by chance see any of the hidden rooms in the houses at the YFZ breeding ranch? I was just amazed to learn they really built those in, considering why. Example they had already hidden Warren on the ranch before.

    At one time they apparently thought that’s where the pregnant young girls were kept until they shipped them out of there, I was told.

  60. DD,
    From what I’ve read, no SANE exams were given at all. And if it came from Bill’s site I’m even more convinced it was a lie as that man wouldn’t know the truth if it bit him in the butt.

    I don’t know about hidden rooms, but it is certainly plausible. Sweeping the pregnant teens off of the ranch is also a possibility, but I’ve seen nothing to back it up, so it’s still just a possibility. I don’t buy into everything on either side. But yes, CPS made bad choices that, instead of leaving an image of saviours, left an image of persecutors which might just make it harder for women and children to seek help in the future. It’s very unfortunate, in my book.

  61. “Do you realize CPS did NOT have to let ONE mother go with their children to the shelters?? In Fact that’s very unsual for that to happen. We have seen deciet on the part of FLDS , and it continues.”

    I agree. That was not only unusual, it was a good decision in general. However, it doesn’t mean it was in any way right or beneficial to outright lie to the women and children on the day they decided to separate them. Deception like that only leads to a lack of trust in the future. It’s true when the FLDS do it; it’s true when CPS does it.

    “They sent those children right back in the same damn mess they started with.”

    It happens. I don’t like it and as someone that CPS sent back to an abusive situation (with unhealed bruises and welts on my 10 year old body) I can assure you I don’t agree with it at all. However, it doesn’t give CPS workers a free pass on bad choices. One example that springs to mind is whoever the worker is who was told by one of the mothers that her two young daughters could not have wheat or milk because they were allergic. This person either forgot, or didn’t pay attention, or just got busy, I don’t know, but one of the little girls had to be sent to the hospital with a very bad allergic reaction after she was given a hot dog (on a bun) for lunch. Another example would be the toddler left unattended in a stroller for many hours who ended up in the hospital with dehydration. These things happened and were verified.

  62. Rebeckah — where is verification of those things ?

  63. This ought to be good.

  64. Rebeckah, I think I am slightly misremembering. I learned the bulk of this while I was traveling (which I did for a good part of last year), it was more than a year ago and I would have to go back through old notes to remember precisely.

    I think GT is remembering correctly: some girls were hidden on the ranch and taken out after LE left. But the principle is unchanged—that there were girls at the ranch who were never discovered by LE.

    Our source(s)—there were actually two—might someday want to tell their story to the world at large. But public scrutiny is very hard, and may even result in alienation, as it has for Carolyn and Betty Jessop. I would always put my own family ahead of the public’s right to know, and that’s what I think has happened in this case.

  65. LE knew about and found secret rooms and hiding places.

    People leaving the ranch on another road in the three hours before, that rumor is a stretch.

  66. Greets

    And that isnt the only untold story. The houses of hiding are used to kidnap women from their children and family so they can be brainwashed with incessent audio tapes.

    And then, just coming to light, are the blatant disregard for paying taxes, and the IRS has liened them over 5 million dollars.

    They claim that “Bleeding the beast” is a myth but there it is in black and white with the “Profit” leading the way.

    This last act may signal their downfall.

    Forget the child molestation, kidnapping wives from children and their homes, abusing children, poor health care, welfare cheating, booting young boys onto the streets,

    The flds may well go down hard like Al Capone for tax evasion.

    Remeber the Tony Alamo!

  67. “In February of 1993, a Memphis grand jury indicted Alamo on charges of filing a false income tax return for 1985, and failing to file tax returns for the years of 1986, 1987 and 1988. In April of 1993, Alamo was arrested, and one year later, in May of 1994, his trial began before U.S. District Judge Jon P. McCalla. On June 8, 1994, Alamo was convicted of all four tax charges and sentenced to six years in prison.”

    http://www.scvhistory.com/scvhistory/alamo-ross.htm

  68. Rebeckah, one small detail niggles at me.

    When people become critically ill from allergies it is almost always from anaphylaxis (as in peanuts or bee stings). Wheat and dairy allergies don’t act like this—they cause gastric distress.

    If a medical history wasn’t available, a child with a severe stomach-ache might end up in hospital, but it would be for testing, not because the child was in a life-threatening situation.

  69. i don’t have the wheat allergies, but i do have a milk allergy and it does cause gastric problems, not anaphylaxis. in fact i don’t have to carry one of those injection pens because it does nothing for stomach problems. the solution is getting the milk out of my system and once that happens i’m good as new.

  70. Thanks for the nice discussion / review. Rebeckah, where’s that proof, or verification as you termed it?

  71. “Thanks for the nice discussion / review. Rebeckah, where’s that proof, or verification as you termed it?”

    I’m not ignoring you folks, I’m at the end of the time scale and up too early. Hang on. 😉

  72. “When people become critically ill from allergies it is almost always from anaphylaxis (as in peanuts or bee stings). Wheat and dairy allergies don’t act like this—they cause gastric distress.”

    That is true in adults but in children bad gastric upsets can lead to dehydration. I don’t actually know how sick she was, just that she was sick enough to be hospitalized.

  73. Okay, this was well over a year ago, let me see what I can dig up for verification.

    And please note, I’m not saying that CPS were monsters. I’m just saying that they made mistakes and errors of judgement (as an organization, I have nothing to claim about any individuals) that have decreased the chances that people will trust them, not increased it. Since the stated goal is for women and children to wake up to their options and realize they can leave and receive assistance, CPS’s poor judgement has been a bit counterproductive. We’re all intelligent adults here (or at least most of us are — I try) and we know that CPS is only as good as each worker and supervisor. CPS has plenty of strikes against it in the secular world. They’re is no reason to believe they handled the FLDS perfectly. Frankly, I was amazed that they were as considerate of the children as they were, providing gardens and sewing machines and as unprocessed of food as they could and things like that.

  74. Here is a link to a blog entry (yes, I know blogs are opinions and not held to the same standard as news articles) that talks about 9 children having been hospitalized. Now, considering that they took so many children at once that’s not amazing, but it still happened. Also, this blog entry has a link to a SLT story about it, but it’s archived and I don’t have $3 a page to open it. 😉

    http://www.4thefamily.us/FLDS-Children_Hospitalized_lost

    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/DN-polygamistbox_29tex.ART.State.Edition1.46587af.html

    (All the above link does is verify that 9 children had ended up hospitalized at that time. Dehydration is listed as one of the reasons as were normal childhood ailments like ear infections and respiratory problems. Given that some of the children also had the chickenpox at the time I can’t call this verification, but it does still leave room for the complaints to be accurate.)

    http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=165

    “A physician in Alvin, Texas, addressed his concern in a letter to Governor Rick Perry on April 27 concerning another child who had to be hospitalized:

    I’m a physician at a small Emergency Room. Tonight I saw one of the children from the FLDS compound who was recently bused to a nearby community. I want to express to you my extreme concern about this baby and all of the very young children in this current situation. The child I saw was under two years old, has been separated from her mother and all familiar adults, taken away from familiar surroundings, and been the subject of intense scrutiny which the child can’t understand. Now the child is ill. I have never seen such a listless, subdued, sad toddler in my life. She doesn’t eat well and her caretaker thinks she may have been breastfed at home as she has so much trouble with bottles. She is losing weight. She doesn’t play with things. She is almost non-responsive to the strange adults around her. This is a child in profound mourning for the loss of her mother, who is sick and by all appearances is going to get sicker.

    Why on earth can this mother not be here to comfort this baby? I am not exaggerating in the least when I say this child looks like she wants to die….Please do something to reunite at least these small infants with their mothers. This is so wrong.”

    “Even after they had been apprised of the special dietary requirements of some of the children, CPS workers often ignored the instructions they had been given. Before she was removed from the Coliseum, One mother told CPS workers that her three daughters were allergic to milk, wheat, and eggs, also recording this information on their bracelets. Their older brother kept telling the workers these foods would make his sisters sick and even wrote a note and gave it to a CPS worker. One of the girls, who was made to eat hot dogs with white flour buns and other foods she was allergic to, became sicker and sicker, experiencing terrible stomach cramps and vomiting. A CPS worker later told the mother that she had arrived on the scene just as other workers were rushing the girl to the hospital. She was unresponsive and pale with a half-smile, glazed eyes, a blank stare, and a fever of 103 degrees. The workers were saying, “Hurry, she is going down fast.” The mother blamed her daughter’s illness on the wrong type of foods, stress, not enough water, and her becoming chilled during the two nights when CPS took all the blankets and sleeping bags. When the girl was brought back from the hospital, she was not reunited with her older brother as he had been promised she would be, and CPS workers would not even tell him where his sister was although he asked repeatedly. Another mother who later rode on a bus with the girl told the mother that she was still sick and pale from the wrong type of food and was suffering from severe stomach cramps.”

    Yes, these are from the mother’s themselves, but there were confirmations from the Mental Health Worker’s affidavits. I haven’t seen them dealt with much from a journalistic standpoint but I find these accounts credible. They weren’t written hysterically or with the hyperbole of Bill’s blog, just a calm (if pained) account of what the mothers (and in one case, doctor) saw. Ignoring what the mothers and children say is as short sighted as the people who won’t read what Warren wrote. (In my humble opinion.)

    I hope this helps you to understand where I’m coming from on this. I don’t think even CPS claims they handled matters perfectly.

  75. Hmmm, my comment is awaiting moderation? Are there words that need to be approved here? Or is it maybe the length? I’m just curious. I don’t think I’ve ever gotten that message before (here). 😉

  76. Secualr world? Isn’t it all secular for CPS?

    Did you just tell us that you are FLDS?

  77. Rebeckah automatically went to moderation because it was over the limit of links. When that happens one of the admins has to approve it before it will appear.

  78. Alin wrote “With the economy the way it is they are probably taking a hit like everyone else.”

    Warren’s lien was in 2005, when the economy was booming. And the less money you make, the less you owe. There’s also bankruptcy court for those who can’t pay – yes, you can include taxes on a bankruptcy filing.

    Want to guess again?

  79. “Secualr world? Isn’t it all secular for CPS?

    Did you just tell us that you are FLDS?”

    lol! No, I’m not FLDS, but yes, I was speaking from the FLDS perspective of things. Yes, the CPS view on matters is certainly supposed to be secular.

  80. Thanks, FLDS Texas, I don’t normally post so many links so I’d never run into. Now that I know it will probably never happen again either. 😉

  81. My comment, by the way, Granny, was merely trying to say that it isn’t just the religious FLDS who have complaints about CPS, hence the word “secular”. Even if you exclude the nutcases like Medvecky there are plenty of legitimate cases of CPS abuses. Frankly, I don’t like the lack of oversight on CPS as I believe that tends to lead to abuses. I also believe that the majority of people in CPS care and are trying to make matters better for children and families, so please don’t think I’m some rabid CPS hater. I’m just willing to see their mistakes too.

  82. First, anything at LiesWillPrevail is suspect, so much lies came from there. Drop that as any kind of resource. Find one, some or any, primary or secondary, that a real researcher would accept.

    Second this so called MD never gave his or her name plus claimed the letter went to Gov Perry, but there it is on LiesWillPrevail. Willie pulled lies like that too, you’ll recall, claiming to have contacted President Bush for instance.

    That sort of citation won’t do, any highschool kid knows that.

  83. Granny,
    I wouldn’t have a clue as to how to track down the doctor who wrote that account but it rings true to me. There was a second source too that spoke of a young girl losing a lot of weight and being hospitalized, which serves as a form of verification for me.

    The mothers accounts are something that I take on a case by case basis. Lines like “in places the floor was literally slick with tears” tells me this is a person who indulges in hyperbole and I take them with a hefty grain of salt. Anything I read at the TruthWillPrevail I also take with a hefty grain of salt, as it is clearly and openly biased. None of that, however, invalidates the first hand accounts of the mothers. It was there that I formed my opinion that no SANE examinations were actually given, although physical examinations WERE given. (I see nothing wrong with a physical examination either.)

    I believe that it is foolish to discount personal accounts simply because I am generally not in agreement with the religion the person belongs to. To ignore what the mothers say simply because they are FLDS is to treat them as they have treated us — and I don’t particularly want to be like them.

    Of course each person must reach their own conclusion as to whether each mother’s or person’s story seems credible or not. I have found most of the mother’s stories to be credible although a few accounts lean heavily on hyperbole.

  84. i know that the children who got chickenpox had to have been exposed before being removed. it takes 2 weeks for it to manifest itself and there were some diagnosed before they left ft concho. they weren’t at the fort for 2 weeks.

  85. Yes, ProudTexan, that’s why I brought it up. CPS can hardly be blamed for children getting the chickenpox and the chickenpox could have caused cases of dehydration too. In other words, I don’t claim that every child who ended up in the hospital did so from CPS neglect or poor oversight. However, the stories about the two year old who was apparently deeply grieving her mother and refusing to eat (or unable to switch to a bottle), the girls who had a bad reaction to eating wheat when the workers should have known better, and the poor little guy left sitting and crying in a stroller are all credible to me. They had too many children to deal with all at once and things happened. The case with the girls with the wheat allergy does not reflect at all well since the mother told people AND says she wrote the information on their identifying bracelets.

  86. Rebeckah — you have to keep in mind that the FLDS is very skilled at using the media to win their “war”. It is essentially their only tool ..well, that and intimidation…because the law is not on their side and the facts ate not on their side. Generally speaking, FLDS have absolutely no qualms about lying to the media to paint themselves in a better light and to paint their opponents in a harsh light. That is true and documented. Anything found on their website can be assumed to be an exaggeration or lie unless there is independent verification. Statements made by individual members should not be regarded as true.

    I am not a fan of CPS, but I do think in the beginning of this case CPS was bending over backwards to take extraordinary care of those children. It is true that the children were in a less than optimal setting when they were at the makeshift shelters in San Angelo. It is likely true that that caused some illnesses and hospitalizations. I do not believe it is true that CPS abused or neglected those children or mistreated their mothers.

  87. I agree, FLDS, that CPS did not abuse any children. I believe there were cases of neglect, probably brought about by the sheer numbers and chaos of the situation. I think it is important to note because CPS really needs to learn from situations such as this. Their function is to protect children so they should (in my mind) be proactive about learning from errors in judgement rather than pretending they did everything right.

    I actually think CPS (or maybe it was just the foster homes themselves) did very well once the children were out of their temporary situation. I think lying to the children and mothers on the day the split them up was a horrible choice. Then again, I value the truth and personal accountability VERY highly.

    However, these are just my opinions. I certainly don’t expect anyone to change their own views based on mine. At the TruthWillPrevail site I read with an open mind. I do realize that the FLDS use the media machine to their own benefit and I keep in mind that some women may simply be writing what they are told. But I also think it is important to read what they say for themselves because even lies give more information. The women’s stories, for the most part, seemed genuine. (A few seemed like they went to the Willie school of communication, but mostly they seemed credible.) And, of course, I’m well aware that CPS is a flawed organization and that ANY undertaking involving 400+ children is bound to have problems. I’m just trying to be as fair and honest as to the facts as possible. Much of what I believe happened I can’t give facts like medical verification or anything, though. Perhaps one of you might be willing to check with the hospitals and stuff and see if any of it could be verified? I know they couldn’t give out personal information about patients but I would think that they could at least confirm that a nameless child came in dehydrated from an allergic reaction or something.

  88. Rebeckah, I can assure you without any hesitation that a child who is “unresponsive and pale with a half-smile, glazed eyes, a blank stare, and a fever of 103 degrees” is not suffering from a wheat or dairy allergy. (I have both.)

    Egg white intolerance does occasionally cause an anaphylactoid reaction, but I don’t think fever is a symptom of any kind of anaphylaxis, so the whole picture is just wrong.

    I don’t know if I think that letter rings true as being from a doctor or not. In my experience, they tend to be highly disciplined writers, focusing narrowly on the issues and avoiding hyperbole. (For good examples of doctor narrative, see “Vital Signs” in Discover Magazine.)

  89. But of course, I want controls. So I’d like to know when and where this happened and how many children in a cohort of 450 were likely to be hospitalized with dehydration during the same period in Texas. (What was the period, anyway?)

  90. I realize that none of those are symptoms of allergies, but they can be symptoms of an allergic reaction. While many allergic reactions involve anaphylaxis, not all do.

    Symptoms
    By Mayo Clinic staff

    For some people, an allergic reaction to a particular food may be uncomfortable but not severe. For other people, an allergic food reaction can be frightening and even life-threatening. Food allergy symptoms usually develop within a few minutes to an hour after eating the offending food.

    The most common food allergy symptoms include:

    ■ Tingling in the mouth
    ■ Hives, itching or eczema
    ■ Swelling of the lips, face, tongue and throat, or other parts of the body
    ■ Wheezing, nasal congestion or trouble breathing
    ■ Abdominal pain, diarrhea, nausea or vomiting
    ■ Dizziness, lightheadedness or fainting

    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/food-allergy/DS00082/DSECTION=symptoms

    So the only symptom that didn’t fit was the fever. That could easily have been an opportunistic infection or simply the fact that children run fevers for all sorts of reasons that adults don’t.

  91. Hmmm, I don’t know exactly when — wasn’t it in April or May? But when you have over 400 children, some of whom have the chickenpox, then a few hospitalizations are perfectly normal I would think.

    By the way, the doctor’s note was supposed to be about a child who was essentially pining for her mother and not adapting to the bottle from breastfeeding. It is an extreme reaction but, once again, in a group of more than 400 children it quite likely that there would be at least one who would have such a severe case of separation anxiety. Particularly if she’s never been away from her mother and was still being breast fed at the time of separation. It’s one of those cases where I think they did the child a disservice, but that’s a personal judgement on my part and it’s always easy to stand in judgement of someone else’s decision, isn’t it? 😉

  92. My daughter got chicken pox at the age of 12,,, and it was weird..It was middle summer, as far as I knew none of her friends had chicken pox. We were all outside swimming,, and I noticed her sitting in a lawn chair in the sun with a towel over her head asleep.
    I went to check and she was burning up! Got her inside, and she said she wasn’t hot, but her back hurt really bad.. I took her temperature after about 15 minutes because shed been in the sun.
    Her temp was 103. She told me her throat hurt, and when I checked she had blisters on her throat… by the next day she was covered with chicken pox. She ran a high fever for almost 24hrs. wouldnt drink or eat.
    Yes, there were children with chicken pox before they ever boarded buses, and with that many children, im sure there were many cases after they got to the shelter.
    I don’t believe for ONE minute , one child went without food, or water at the shelters. I also believe the mothers made the children’s stay much more stressful and tramatic!!

  93. Suggests to me an underaged mother who was in hiding because of obvious pregnancy but what do I know.

  94. Granny Toad, I also believe adult women were completely paranoid some of the children would tell the truth about the ranch!!

  95. I was already aware of a number of things about FLDS for a couple of decades before this “close up” of their criminal behavior. I’m not at all favorably impressed, mm mm it got worse. Far worse.

    Before all this I had much more sympathy for yer average everyday FLDS adults than I’m left with. Maybe I could get that back, I don’t know.

  96. Rebeckah, about the food allergies….

    I have a long list of food allergies that have been identified and verified by an allergist. When I had knee surgery, I stayed in the hospital for four days. I informed the hospital of the issues in a pre-surgery interview, I was interviewed by the hospital nutritionist and I wore a wrist band that described the allergies. One is corn. They gave me intravenous sugar water which was made of dextrose (corn) and I had an allergic reaction – hives around the insertion of the IV and then later over my whole torso. For the first two days, my food was fine, and then the nutritionists changed shifts, and they went back to feeding me what they were feeding everyone else on the orthopedic ward.

    So, I don’t think it’s a case that CPS doesn’t care of is hateful. I think it’s a case that food allergies are poorly understood and hard to manage in a group environment like that.

    The description of the child’s health when rushed off to the hospital sounds to me like dehydration caused by excessive vomiting and diarrhea, and a young child can move from being fine to being in bad shape from that in a matter of hours.

    Hardly proof of neglect.

    I will begin to believe the supposed health care workers when they start signing their own names and speaking in their own voices. There are reasonable channels to take in the event of abuse and/or neglect, and an unsigned letter to the press is not one of those.

  97. “Suggests to me an underaged mother who was in hiding because of obvious pregnancy but what do I know.”

    What suggests that to you GrannyTodd? I’m not sure what you’re referring to.

    “So, I don’t think it’s a case that CPS doesn’t care of is hateful. I think it’s a case that food allergies are poorly understood and hard to manage in a group environment like that.”

    I’m really not trying to say that they were hateful and I agree that food allergies are very poorly understood. Thank heavens none of the children DID have an anaphalactic shock reaction. (My father has an extreme bee allergy and I know how very dangerous that can be.) All I’m saying is that I didn’t see any acountability for the errors that DID happen. (And let’s face it, in an undertaking this large it would have been amazing if something DIDN’T get overlooked, lost or forgotten.) Maybe (hopefully) they did some internal acountability so that any similar situation in the future could be handled better. I don’t know.

    As for the health care/mental health workers, I thought that there was supposed to be a confidentiality contract or something, which is why they made their report anonymously. If that is the case, I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for them to identify themselves since it could mean their jobs. Yes, the stories could be made up. They could also be completely true. Yes the FLDS lies a lot and spins the things they say to get the most milage out of it. But they don’t ALL lie and if we simply dismiss them without consideration then I think we are in danger of becoming like them. (All apostates lie sound familiar? 😉 ) Anyway, I do agree that you folks have valid points. I’m not calling for a lynching of CPS workers or trying to jump on any anti-CPS bandwagons (although I too, am not much of a CPS fan).

  98. If they made such CONFIDENTIAL reports then they’re still confidential names and all. Did anyone get the number off that turnip truck’s license plate when it passed through LiesWillPrevail?

    So anyway you gave the story of the 2 year old responding as if still breastfeeding, I didn’t. If she were, WHERE was her mother?

    Why ask me then what that would suggest, already knowing what I know about the missing underaged pregnant girls that were hidden. Especially a particular missing Sarah …

    I’m not saying anything more about that “suggestion” except what I said. Of course I don’t *know*.

  99. “So anyway you gave the story of the 2 year old responding as if still breastfeeding, I didn’t. If she were, WHERE was her mother?”

    This was after they separated the mothers and children — I think. Hmmm, you know, thinking about it, the two can’t be about the same thing unless the mother was one of those that was off the ranch when the raid happened. I supposed that’s possible…

    “Why ask me then what that would suggest, already knowing what I know about the missing underaged pregnant girls that were hidden. Especially a particular missing Sarah … ”

    I’m not sure what you mean by that. Did I ask what you suggest? I was just expressing my opinion. I am certainly not trying to attack you or to invalidate your opinions. I sincerely hope I haven’t given you that impression.

  100. MH/MR were called in for those women or children who were mentally challenged or disabled. They weren’t there to investigate anything. Im leery of “anonymous” letters myself.
    And trust me MH/MR doesn’t have any better reputation that CPS does.
    I doubt one person here is a CPS fan, I know Im not. But there are cases where CPS needs to be involved and this was one of them, and they dropped the ball. It’s a mystery WHY they dropped the ball to everyone, and makes the whole damn office look stupid!!

  101. I do agree with you on that one, DD. They shouldn’t have released and non-suited every child. I’m not surprised that they did so, but I think the decision to go with that has weakened their ability to deal with abuses from the FLDS in the future. I was very disappointed by that action.

  102. Rebeckah, to be clearer, all allergens have the potential to cause anaphylaxis but it is more likely with some allergies and intolerances than others. Food allergies in general account for only a small portion of anaphylaxis, and of them, nuts and shellfish are the most common triggers.

    But fever is never a symptom of anaphylaxis, to my knowledge.

  103. According to what I read on the Mayo Clinic site it isn’t a factor at all in a food allergy. (Probably not in any allergy.) However, young children DO run fevers for what seems to be no reason.

  104. It would be disingenuous to claim that these kids were not stressed by separation from their caretakers (in some cases, not their mothers), especially as they have been raised to distrust ‘Gentiles’. But there was something about these claims that angered me then and still angers me today.

    I very seldom raise the race issue, Rebeckah, but here goes: tens of thousands of kids see their parents arrested every year in our country. A disproportionate number are black or Hispanic. You don’t hear one word in the media about the impact on those kids of seeing their parents arrested and incarcerated, but I’ve been listening to people carry on about the FLDS kids for 16 months. The difference is that these children are blond and preciously dressed and inner city kids are not.

    I don’t know if you were around at the time of the raid, but there were lots of comments about how the FLDS kids would end up in the CPS system with inner city kids (which sounded to me like a euphemism for black and Hispanic kids) and be perverted and corrupted. It turned my stomach then and it still does.

    The other part of this is that CPS bent over backward to ensure the FLDS kids were well cared for. We heard reports on the Trib boards from all sorts of Texans who had FLDS kids housed near them, and what they said was uniformly positive. And I don’t begrudge this—CPS needed to work doubly hard because of the scrutiny—but every extra bit of attention lavished on those kids was taken from another kid in the system who probably needed it just as much, but had the misfortune of being “just another inner-city kid.”

    OK, done ranting.

  105. Good rant, GFNY.
    I enjoyed it
    and I concur.

  106. A child is resilient if a mother allows them to be. I don’t believe Flds mothers are allowing or supporting their children to recover. After all the more they dwell in it, the more the child stays in the same place.
    For Instance, in the transcripts, Willie Jessop continuosly talks about persecution, about the courts trying to take Flds family homes away from them.. Did you see how many people were at the hearing outside? Did you see how many young children? This is how they talk to their children daily…. The gentiles and apostates want to take your home away from you! We will be homeless!!! And nothing is farther from the truth.
    But this is all these children are hearing from adults!! It’s disgraceful and abuse in my mind.

  107. GFNY
    That is what I remember about the early posts it was all “those inner city kids” which was clearly a racist code word so I agree

  108. Greetings,
    Those are all great thoughts, and I’ve considered them myself. I very much believe that CPS should have only taken the teen girls and that they overreached. However, in returning and non-suiting all the children they’ve gone too far the other way. Still, hindsight is 20/20 and as I admitted before, it’s really easy for me to sit in my armchair in Washington State and second guess the decisions made by CPS. But since I wasn’t there at the time, my judgment is bound to be questionable. About the only thing I feel strongly about is that CPS needs to be accountable, if only within its own ranks, for figuring out what they could have done better. When it comes to children I believe that only 100% is good enough.

    Of course, I’d really love to see the FLDS parents do the same thing and have said so on numerous occasions.

    DD, you are absolutely right about the parents being vital in the resiliency of the children. My son was taken into foster care when he was a little over a year old and he was in foster care for two months. He didn’t suffer any ill effects and his foster mother became something of a surrogate mother to me. Of course, I was grateful that someone was looking out for my son, so perhaps my attitude that this was for HIS benefit impacted him.

    Yeah, it was hard on me to be separated from my son. But what was important was that he was safe and protected while our home life was investigated to the court’s satisfaction. (This happened in England, by the way, where parents have NO rights if their child is placed in foster care.)

  109. Rebeckah, have you read: https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2009/04/02/casa-vs-cps/

    and https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2009/04/12/cps-vs-cps/

    I think both stories indicate that there has been soul-searching within CPS about what happened there.

    I admire you tremendously for giving your son the tools he needed to prosper during your separation. It can’t ever be easy, but you have proven it is doable. God bless you.

  110. Let’s not forget all those blasted, libelous posts everywhere about how Texas only wanted to ‘steal’ those blond-haired cherubs to be placed with Baptist families who didn’t want those inner city children – only their perfect little flds kiddos.

  111. lol, I remember those, Wright. I put them right up there with the Hitler comments, the “extermination order” comments and, of course, the genocide comments. Frankly I’m boggled every time the FLDS have the gauche to compare themselves to the Jews going through the Holocaust. Is narcisisim a religous trait I don’t know about?

  112. Hey, Rebeckah, I’ve finally caught up with some back posts at Coram Non Judice. According to one of the many Anonymon, you’re stuck in a 1980s therapy model, and I’m a sociopath.

    It’s like when you teach a kid a new word and he repeats it endlessly until he’s got it straight.

  113. Yeah, I thought that person was very funny. Granted, I haven’t read all of your posts, but since sociopathy isn’t something that comes and goes I’m going to go out on a limb and say that you don’t show any signs of it. However, you are a very intelligent woman who expresses herself well, therefor you MUST be screwed up, right? In a “proper” world you’d be at home making babies, not on the internet trying to protect other people’s babies. 😉

  114. As for me, there IS some validity. I feel that therapy, when done by a good therapist and for the right reasons, can work wonders in helping someone to turn their life around. My biggest desire for the FLDS, however, is to see honest education going on and access to religion-neutral law enforcement. It’s a dream, but everyone needs dreams, right?

  115. Say,

    just noticed that duane disappeared about the same time as these tax liens showed up, guess he doesnt like the smell of having to always be siding with IRS TAX CHEATS.

    And after saying he has “First hand knowledge of the new Leadership” of the FLDS and not knowing or being able to say who it is.

    I stand by my assertion that Rod Parker is the new leader, he is leading the flds around by the nose from lawsuit to lawsuit so it will fund his retirement!

    Wonder what plan Rod has for the FLDS to resolve their $5,000,000 tax bill?

    Or does he know about it? Will he acknowledge the problem or deny this too?

    So many questions, so many screwed up FLDS lives!

  116. “As for the health care/mental health workers, I thought that there was supposed to be a confidentiality contract or something, which is why they made their report anonymously.”

    Mental health workers are required reporters. There are channels. They may have a confidentiality contract which keeps them from going directly to the press, but they certainly have channels within the system. If they had used that route, we would have heard about it in some form over the last year plus, since we know people on all sides of this issue. It is my personal belief that that whole “report” was the result of a hefty bribe to one man. Why? Because it is standard FLDS behavior to go DIRECTLY to public opinion and to avoid the system entirely. I believe none of it; it is noise. I agree with you that there had to be problems and some accusations are probably well founded. I think this one is a red herring.

  117. Stamp,

    Maybe he’s on vacation.

  118. Yeah, and so is Pliggy and a host of other posters. I think PligKid was right, he probably heard through the vine that they would become more secretive and he said so last week. Since then they havent hardly peeped.

    But they will, as there are so many trials and so many questions as Warren falls apart and they try to recoup.

    I would really like to get a response from Rod, or Willie, ANYBODY, that gives an excuse as to how they got 5 million dollars in debt to the IRS.

    This didnt happen in one year – these folks are serial cheats and it builds, there is another million in liens the IRS is fixing to lien them with after they audit this years taxes.

    It just keeps going on!

  119. Everything I know about, CPS bent over backward, even allowing mothers to stay with children, accepting young ages as given, especially after all the lying about names, ages, whose child was whose and suchlike they’d been being scammed with, that caused them to need to get the 2nd warrant.
    =========================================================
    I’m unaware of any of the 38 mothers represented by the TRLA ever misrepresenting their children. Perhaps you can show me different.

  120. A child is resilient if a mother allows them to be. I don’t believe Flds mothers are allowing or supporting their children to recover.
    ====================================================
    I’m one of those who believe that the parents should never have to repair the damage inflicted on their children by the state.

  121. Alinusara, maybe that’s why you have NO children? Don’t give me that bull shit….If mother’s had been honest, they wouldn’t have had to run a public notice suing parents in early april with the names of children unclaimed by any mother. Strange isn’t it, how after the public notice was ran in newspapers around the country, mother’s started appearing out of thin air.

  122. Hell Flds parents don’t even beleive in repairing the damage they themselves do to their children,, so which underage daughter did you give away to an OLD man?

  123. If mother’s had been honest, they wouldn’t have had to run a public notice suing parents in early april with the names of children unclaimed by any mother.
    ======================================================
    Nah they was too stupid to believe the mothers when she claimed her children. Remember these are the same people 2 months after the raid who called Teresa Jeffs and underage mother and we find out she never had a baby and for that matter never been pregnant.
    ========================================================
    …so which underage daughter did you give away to an OLD man?
    ==========================================================
    I’m unaware of any of the 38 mothers represented by TRLA having any children involved in any “spiritual” marriages.

  124. Ali

    The FLDS lie and Fraud the US on their taxes, why would they be honest to anybody else?

    They certainly arent honest to their children. Being raised in a veal cage is for animals not humans!

  125. “I’m one of those who believe that the parents should never have to repair the damage inflicted on their children by the state.”

    alinusara, I am just sitting here with my mouth hanging open at this comment.

    I guess if a kid falls and scrapes a knee, the parent(s) should never have to repair the damage. I guess if a child scalds herself with a kettle of hot water, the parent(s) should never have to repair the damage. Wasn’t THEIR fault, after all.

    I hope you aren’t a parent, because you sure don’t have any idea what parenting means.

  126. ” I agree with you that there had to be problems and some accusations are probably well founded. I think this one is a red herring.”

    You could very well be right. Certainly I have not proof otherwise. It’s kind of in the vaccination category in my mind. If it happened, I’m unhappy about it. But I don’t know that it actually happened.

  127. “I’m unaware of any of the 38 mothers represented by the TRLA ever misrepresenting their children. Perhaps you can show me different.”

    “I’m unaware of any of the 38 mothers represented by TRLA having any children involved in any “spiritual” marriages.”

    It’s amazing how much you can be “unaware” of when you close your eyes.

    By the way, for those of you who skim, not the attempt to be misleading without actually lying again. “I’m unaware of mothers represented by TRLA…” Now, just how many of the FLDS mothers were represented by the TRLA? How many FLDS mothers DID give their underage daughters to old men in marriage. Was Barbara Jessop represented by TRLA?

    I have to go take a shower now. Alin’s posts always make me feel like I’ve been wading in a swamp.

  128. Now, just how many of the FLDS mothers were represented by the TRLA?
    ===================================================
    38 my friend. Don’t you read?
    ===================================================
    How many FLDS mothers DID give their underage daughters to old men in marriage.
    ===================================================
    I’m not sure but the indictments approximately equals 12 women below the legal age.
    ===================================================
    Was Barbara Jessop represented by TRLA?
    ===================================================
    No

  129. I guess if a kid falls and scrapes a knee, the parent(s) should never have to repair the damage. I guess if a child scalds herself with a kettle of hot water, the parent(s) should never have to repair the damage. Wasn’t THEIR fault, after all.
    ========================================================
    Are you saying that the state came along and shoved the kid down so he scraped his leg or are you saying that the state came along and pour scalding water on the child? If that case yes I would say that the parent should never have to repair the damage inflicted by the state. But repair it he must.

  130. alinusara, doesn’t matter how the damage is inflicted. I still question that any damage WAS inflicted by the state — I believe ALL the damage has been inflicted by the mothers, the fathers and the “religion.”

    Loving parents care for their children no matter how damage is inflicted. Loving parents do NOT marry off their 12-yr old daughters to men in their 50s who already “possess” multiple concubines.

  131. Alinusara,

    1. Prove to me any child was mistreated while in CPS care.

    2. Show ME documented PROOF, not stories made up by mothers, or Bill Medvecky

    3. Proof with documented evidence that a 18month old little boy was given a SANE exam..

    4. Actually documented proof that ANY OR ONE child was given a SANE exam.

    5. What you see on this Site is documented evidence, NOT hear say.

    Do us all a favor and before you spout crap, document it!!

  132. Alin isn’t here to prove anything. Alin is a snake who is here to mislead, misdirect, muddy the waters, and confuse as many people as possible. The fact that Alin makes these stupid comments like “I am unaware of…” and has NEVER tried to become aware of anything (especially on this site where so much evidence is available) is pretty solid proof that Alin is a troll. I keep wondering if he/she is FLDS or on their payroll. If he/she isn’t he/she should be.

  133. alin is more than one person. Several folks use the same screen name. If you read carefully and comparatively, you’ll see that the “voice” changes.

    Dunno what they’re getting otu of this. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.

  134. Makes sense to me, Texasrattle.

  135. I agree with your comments about Alin. He/she/it/they are woefully uneducated about flds matters. Love the arguement that “I am unaware of” ergo, it never happened. ROFL. Probably best just to ignore Alin.

  136. Well Alin,, Julie Balovich represented Martha Emack (mother) and If Im not mistaken Michael Emack was indicted for sexual assault of a child..

  137. Rebeckah, I firmly believe that all the best people have therapy. That’s how they get to be so well-adjusted.

    I’m looking for a term in which to lump anonymous posters, as a variation on “Aiders and Abettors Society”. Rattle just came up with “Anonymati.” That works better than my “Anonymon,” above.

  138. Well??? I guess that shut up Alinusara for a bit! LOL

  139. You reminded me of this by mentioning Michael Emack, DD:

    Why is it taking so long for these men to come to trial? I’m guessing the state might have that much material to sift through.

  140. I wonder why Judge Walther has not yet ruled on the motion to suppress the evidence seized during the raid. There have been two court appearances in the past month – one to set the trial dates and one that focused on where the trials will be held. Here’s some info about yesterdays hearing:
    http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2009/aug/10/flds-trials-might-be-held-in-schleicher-county/

  141. A possible reason amuses me, wossisname, Conn? Similarly there was Goldwotzit’s disdain for time, deadlines, disrespect for Texas courts and judges. Haven’t heard him complain.

  142. all in usa are whatever are a cumulative joke

  143. if you search in the years of 2002, 2003, 2004 you can find the personal bankruptcy filings of those who moved from Salt Lake to Short Creek at Warren’s orders in January of 2002. Last names to look for would be: Jeffs, Keate, Bauer, Warner, Rohbock, Steed, Taylor, Musser, Nicholson, Musser. Most of these would have been filed in Washington or Mohave counties. Seems kind of wrong to move and leave your houses, start giving the money to Warren and then file bankruptcy.

  144. Thanks, maybe there will be a post on those too. More Bleeding the beast!

    Have you compiled the info yet?

  145. “Their is an IRS tax lien on Willie Jessop’s Apple Valley Corporation for $1,705.265.00″

    ————

    I’ll ask again. If there is and the trust owns this property and owes this money, then why hasn’t Wisan dealt with it? Is Wisan not doing his job? (This is a rhetorical question, for obviously he is. His real job is to destroy the trust, and he’s trying his best to do that.)

    =====================

    Wasnt this answered? The tax liens are NOT on the UEP, but rather, individuals and the companies owned seperatly by FLDS adherents.

    Adding to the $5 million in FLDS Tax Liens, is $1.5 million in liens against Winston Blackmore in Canada that is in litigation right now.

    He perhaps bought into the “Shell Pembina Tax Fraud Scam” as well – so that takes the number to 6.5 MILLION OWED in tax liens by both the US and Canada.

    They pay $2000 for Tribal membership and a card that they read to cops:

    “I give myself all rights entitled to a sovereign, including but not limited to the right to drive and travel. Anyone wishing me to give them my license for making any legal determinations for me are hereby declared to be incompetent by me and are now FIRED from making any legal determination for me.”

    A similar verse is read in court appearances.”

    These disturbing forays expose them for who they are. They take money from our government for their flock of children, but refuse to pay taxes.

    Now Warren skated with 4.5 Million that he took from UEP land sales, and who knows where that money went?

    Enquiring minds want to know! But we do have our suspicions.

    The YFZ, the heretofore unreported ranch near New Braunsfels Tex, and properties in CO and SD, if not elswhere.

    R17 (YFZ) is listed in numerical order – suggesting that there are at least 17 FLDS locations. I can only think of 5, and one in Canada and one in Mexico for a total of 7. That leaves at least 10 more that are unaccounted for in the public knowledge realm.

Comments are closed.

 
%d bloggers like this: