Open Discussion #10


~ by FLDS TEXAS on August 6, 2009.

756 Responses to “Open Discussion #10”

  1. New article on the UEP situation in the SLT.

  2. “Mom was all about education giving OPTIONS.”

    Your Mom was a wise and compassionate woman, TexasMom. I worked as a teacher’s aide for several years in an inner city on the East Coast. Providing options and solid facts is, to me, the best way to deal with religious fanaticism and intolerance. I wonder if that’s why mouth breathers like Duane, Alin, Concerned and the like make me so livid with their continual whine of “but you’re PREJUDICED against that religion!”?

  3. What Brooke Adams and Mark Shurtleff ignore is that the expenses Wisan has run up running this trust are very reasonable—about .8% a year, even with all the litigation forced on it. Fidelity’s real estate fund has an expense ratio of 1.49%; Ernst & Young says the average expense ratio for an international real estate fund is 3.3% per year, to give you some comparisons.

    Brooke Adams quoted Mark Shurtleff as saying:

    “‘It always had to go back’ to the community, he said, a majority of which is made up of members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints…”

    If only Shurtleff would document the membership of this unenumerated, unnamed group! Then I might be convinced that this whole sudden need to force a settlement isn’t a scheme to relieve Wee Willie’s tax problems, which are—what?—$1.7 million and counting?

    But nobody knows which people in Short Creek are actually represented by Wee Willie and which are not. You simply cannot hand real property over to an unknown entity headed by an unacknowledged “spokesman”.

  4. Well I think Brooke touched on the expenses issue by noting that the FLDS ran the UEP on donations before and the implication (which we know is totally true) that they aren’t “donating” anything to the upkeep of the UEP now. Perhaps, rather than selling off the land, Wisan should be looking at renewable sources of income for the trust. Maybe set up a resort so unworthy gentiles could pay to enjoy the rugged scenery or a spa so they could pay unwind is relative isolation, or something like that.

  5. GFNY, that $1.7 million is the federal tax lien against just ONE of wee willies companies, (don’t you just love PUBLIC RECORDS) it does not take into account any property taxes he owes on all the property wee willie personally owns or the taxes owed from any of the other shell corporations his name is on.

  6. Rebeckah, I have heard the suggestion of leasing Berry Knoll to the Ute Indians for a casino as a way to generate funds. Sounds appropriate to me as Berry Knoll was originally stolen from the Ute’s.

  7. For me, the interesting part of the UEP article is the implied threat of eminent domain by Colorado City.

    However, with an offer on the table they’d have a hard time proving that the property was worth less than the current offer.

  8. “Rebeckah, I have heard the suggestion of leasing Berry Knoll to the Ute Indians for a casino as a way to generate funds. Sounds appropriate to me as Berry Knoll was originally stolen from the Ute’s.”

    While I”m sure that it would use less water than growing alfalfa, I’m curious as to whether gamblers would drive so far off the beaten path to spend money there. Doesn’t it take an hour or so to get there from any major population?

  9. Ron

    Excellent point – one that is hard to prove, since they had used it for alfalfa, which uses 5 times the water needed for homes.

    The city DOES have control over zoning issues, if I was them, it would be contingent on a rezone. That way the buyers have the court behind them, if they wait then they are at the mercy of CC hall.

  10. On Bills site, Deb Lee says that Rod should sue to prevent tube feeding.

    Of course that would lead to his death, where they could then blame Elissa, or the State, or anybody but Warren the Abuser.

    Then zcnbnnn saw the “Damned if they do and damned if they dont” scenario and called Bill on it, as Bill’s mission is to protest the sun rise.


  11. Stamp

    The unbridled ignorance of Bill and his minions simply hurts my head. Blues tried to educate him on the fact that a D.O. and an M.D. are both licensed to practice medicine and he accuses him of “insulting” Warren.

    I loved this quote from Bill:

    I don’t follow arbitrary Laws. I’m not a lemming, and neither are the people I respect.

    I think it goes with out saying the Bill doesn’t follow the law, arbitrary or not. After all, he’s a convicted ex-felon.

  12. I saw that, what a catfight, then Z got in Bills face too, which was a hoot, I thought this Z guy always was Bills lapdog but those posts really peeled Bills onion.

    Bill is pissed if the feed him or let him die, so in Bills world he will always be happy to have something to hate.

    Dang I guess prison life is REAL BAD – when you come out born a Bull Manure.

  13. The other side of BillM’s thinking is his blame list of persons directly responsible for all of the FLDS church’s woes. Problem with his reasoning is that as the cases keep mounting and BillM’s blame list keeps growing. How many Judges, prosecutors and public officials are yet to make Bill’s list? Who knows but the list is already pretty long and unwieldy. Remember in Bill’s world the Prophet and FLDS church would prevail and the Zion effect would be wonderful, like an unchained felony crime-wave.

  14. What I find funny is how Bill was so quiet about his reception in SLC amongst the gathered flds.

    Most didnt care to notice him, if they did it was a cool reception. If you arent dressed up like a plygger they dont give you the time of day, probably not anyway unless they know you personally.

    He was lost in an ignorant group of clannish people.

    And it cost him HOW MUCH to fly out there and to find he wasnt recognized???? LMAO

  15. BillM’s thinking is just criminal. It’s like he has a jailbird mentality when it comes to lawful behavior. He espouses independence from arbitrary laws that he deems invalid. He’s always chiding the Warrenites to stand up and assert their wrongs, pretty bizarre.

    BillM your penchant for committing felony(s) is showing, again. It’s just a criminal way of thinking.

  16. Could I get a link to Bill’s site?


    Thats it, cement. Hold your nose!

  18. since I don’t want to give him free hits I’m not giving the url. The name of the site is “Free the FLDS children”

  19. Brooke Adams put it in a nut shell.

    Lindberg has attributed the need to sell property to the FLDS’ failure to pay a $100 monthly fee she instituted in January 2008, charged for the right to occupy a trust home.

    When first approved, the fee was aimed at generating money to improve the community’s water system –improvements he estimated would cost at least $1 million — as part of court-appointed fiduciary Bruce R. Wisan’s plan to break up the communal holdings, subdivide Hildale and Colorado City and turn residents into private landowners.

    With 700 homes in the community, and assuming every household paid up and the money was used for no other expenses, it would take 15 months to cover the cost of the water system upgrades.

    FLDS AND UEP is Communism at its best.

  20. Ladie Sadie said this:”Rebeckah, I have heard the suggestion of leasing Berry Knoll to the Ute Indians for a casino as a way to generate funds. Sounds appropriate to me as Berry Knoll was originally stolen from the Ute’s.”

    I’m not Rebeckah but I am wondering why should the Berry Knoll be leased to the Utes? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?

    Holm said this:””We hope that message would be to have our lands back,” Holm said. “Our families, our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers owned this land and dedicated it to this cause.”

    Seems to me the Utes were there first.

    It isn’t just some of the FLDS that have died on that land.

    Check out Ben Bistlines book to see how they came across that piece of property.

    Dan Barlow might have donated pieces of property to the Trust but who helped feed Barlows family when he was busy giving away property.

    Who would drive there? What non drinking/non smoking/ soda drinker would drive to Wendover? lol.

    Build it, and they will come.

    But first they should recognize who actually has say in the real ownership of the property.

    Seems to me that their “visions” are somewhat cloudy. Talk to those that were there first.

    This is one area I would really like to see Boots, GFNY and Ladie Sadie look into. Please. Ron they will need you as well to check into the legal stuff.

    Have I told you guys lately how much I love all of you?


    P.S. My job keeps me from posting as much as I’d like.

  21. Where was the outcry among the FLDS when they attempted to kick out Spencer Johnson? I think he is probably the only original settlor still alive.

  22. Wow, with all the brown-nosing going on at Bill’s site, no wonder they think everyone else stinks!

  23. What percentage of Utah drove here to buy pull tabs?

    🙂 No need to answer. I have an idea.

  24. Cement you either brown nose on BillM’s site or you get edited off or ignored. BillM used to blog on other sites but he was so consistently attacked and debated that today he seldom ventures away from his “Edit” button. He’s a marginalized and backwater gator in the Florida swamplands.

  25. Heyyyy cajIM, even the Florida gators have better taste than that! They turn their noses up and try to spray the stink of Bull Manure away from the swamplands!

  26. Wow, with all the brown-nosing going on at Bill’s site, no wonder they think everyone else stinks!

    cement said this on August 6, 2009 at 2:02 PM


    LMAO !!!!! True words!

  27. Well LadySadie New york State spawn Madvecky and I don’t think after he served his prison sentence minds that he has left Albany. No bad reflection on the Great State of Florida or it’s gator population. I’m sure that they would apoState him, if they could.

  28. Im just wondering what Mudpucky meant that the Jail doctor isn’t an md? Of course shes an Md, she is also a DO. I go to a doctor who is both an MD and DO.
    The idioit has lost his marbles. You don’t have to have permission or a court order to keep a person in jail from dying by killing himself, or starving himself to death.

  29. DD

    Most licensed physicians are either MD’s or DO’s. There are two separate routes to become a licensed physician. There are regular medical schools and osteopathic medical schools. One cranks out MD’s the other cranks out DO’s. The training is not that much different but osteopathic schools put more emphasis on skeleto-muscular therapy.

  30. Well My doctor is an MD and DO also, I have his card right here.

  31. DD

    I’m sure it could happen, but like I said most licensed physicians are one or the other.

  32. Right, ron, he is in Family Practice, your right!!! God, I hate being wrong, LOL 🙂

  33. Whada say we chat sum on dis here Missa Warren, mon. A wah yu know none. He no Shepherd brothas and sistahs, Yeh mon me no lie. Lissen I and I tessamony sum this raggamuffin in da dunjeon now and whada no eat sum? He rude bwoy wid da massa jailermon, now. Dee foool still is thirstee, me nah do dat, him sick’n his mind an sole. No true? Me pray’n dis sick’n Royal Kingmon be mo betta from Jah. Keepin’ One life, One Love letts pray togedda dat it be all right. Jesum Peez

    Whad’um Creole tan sistah GFNY, more time. Bengie

  34. UMMM

    Word is, Warren ate scrambled eggs and toast this morning and didnt die.

  35. They need to get the man a Shrink!!!! He’s one sick puppy

  36. “Word is, Warren ate scrambled eggs and toast this morning and didnt die.”

    That’s nice. Maybe I should whip together one of my breakfasts of eggs, steak, steamed red potatos with garlic and rosemary, and pancakes with peanut butter and syrup. Wash it all down with a big glass of orange juice. That’ll put some flesh on his bones! (If he eats it, of course.)

  37. I guess ol’Warren doesnt have the pull to get his daily meals catered….like the other old crime lords did. 23hrs a day [I am just guessing here] doesnt give you time to order off the menu!

  38. OOOOPS.. 23hrs a day in solitary confinement.

  39. Walton, I’ve pretty much said what I think about the Ute and Berry Knoll here:

    But it is asinine to think that if you’re the last guy who stole a bit of property you should have protection against the next guy stealing it. And since this was Ute territory, if there’s any title issue, why not hand it back to them?

    The problem is, President Lincoln created the Uintah Reservation in answer to the Great Rip-off of Ute lands by the Mormons. (To my eastern eyes, one vast western wasteland looks about the same as another; so I have no idea whether that benefitted or harmed the Ute nation.) That might muddy the waters somewhat, but I think it’s worth testing in the courts.

  40. Actually, the land may have originally belonged to the Piutes instead of the Utes. There were more Utes in Northern Utah and Piutes in the southern part of the state. The Piutes were the more peaceful of the two tribes. The Utes used to steal Piute children and sell them into slavery.

  41. Friday morning’s breakfast for Warren will be green eggs and ham. Order up!

  42. But he might not like them, Sam I am. 😉

  43. I read on here about the Bill Medvecky site having fits that the doctor taking care of Warren in the jail in Kingman is a DO instead of an MD.

    I find that quite humorous because the Creek has two doctors licensed there to practice Family Medicine – Lloyd Hammon Barlow and Lehi Samuel Barlow. Lloyd Hammon Barlow is an MD (he is the FLDS doctor in Eldorado charged with not reporting child abuse). Lehi Samuel Barlow is a DO.

    Didn’t seem to bother Warren before that a DO would be his doctor; why should it matter now?

  44. PS – neither of them belong to the AMA.

  45. Sacred grounds. But in what terms and whose eyes?

    This is what Lora Tom had to say at the Mountain Meadows Massacre ceremony.

  46. Those eyesoles down on the crik really do have their own little world, now don’t they.

  47. To be fair, it’s Mudpuppy, not Jeffs, who is complaining about the jail doctor being a DO instead of an MD. Asinine objection, of course.

    One of my doctors is a DO; he did the same residency as an MD. He is now faculty at a top medical school and is quite brilliant.

  48. there’s nothing wrong with a DO and in some cases they might be better because they are more apt to look outside of drugs for help in solving problems, they are more up on holistic meds.

  49. GFNY,
    Check this out:

    And here is what Lora Tom had to say at the Mountain Meadows Massacre Ceremony:

  50. It simply amazes me and dumbfounds me that such a vile racist as Brigham Young not only has a university named after him, but that folks actually attend that university.

  51. Welcome to Utah, Ron.

  52. I wonder if that’s why mouth breathers like Duane, Alin, Concerned and the like make me so livid with their continual whine of “but you’re PREJUDICED against that religion!”?
    I have never made that claim.

    Umm Rebechah that was about as honest as you can get.

  53. Holm said this:””We hope that message would be to have our lands back,” Holm said. “Our families, our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers owned this land and dedicated it to this cause.”

    Seems to me the Utes were there first.
    Seems to me that you are making that argument that all European whites who came over the ocean should reimburse the native americans descendants for land taken during our initial settlements and further migrations west.

    Umm Rebechah that was about as honest as you can get.

  54. It simply amazes me and dumbfounds me that such a vile racist as Woodrow Wilson not only has a school at Princeton university named after him (Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs), but that folks actually attend that school.

  55. OK Duane, I’ll bite – how is Woodrow Wilson a racist?

  56. Ron, the so-called Progressive era only applied to Whites

    …Wilson allowed various officials to segregate the toilets, cafeterias, and work areas of their departments. One justification involved health: White government workers had to be protected from contagious diseases, especially venereal diseases, that racists imagined were being spread by blacks. In extreme cases, federal officials built separate structures to house black workers. Most black diplomats were replaced by whites; numerous black federal officials in the South were removed from their posts; the local Washington police force and fire department stopped hiring blacks. Wilson’s own view, as he expressed it to intimates, was that federal segregation was an act of kindness. In historian Friedman’s paraphrase, “Off by themselves with only a white supervisor, blacks would not be forced out of their jobs by energetic white employees.”

    According to Friedman, President Wilson said as much to those appalled blacks who protested his actions. He told one protesting black delegation that “segregation is not a humiliation but a benefit, and ought to be so regarded by you gentlemen.” When the startled journalist William Monroe Trotter objected, Wilson essentially threw him out of the White House. “Your manner offends me,” Wilson told him. Blacks all over the country complained about Wilson, but the president was unmoved. “If the colored people made a mistake in voting for me,” he told The New York Times in 1914, “they ought to correct it.”…

  57. No need to post Duane I looked at Wilson’s entry in Wikipedia.

    I stick by my statement about schools named after vile racists. Hopefully, someday Princeton will come to grips with the problem.

    However, I could go on and on about the problems of naming a university after Brigham Young. About the only thing Brigham Young should have named after him is an outhouse.

  58. You know Ron, I don’t agree with Brigham Youngs views on race either and that applies to all Mormons. But unlike traditional racist groups, they do not advocate violence and overt discrination against blacks and other minorities. For exaple I’ve never heard of a Mormon group that lynched blacks, beat them up, dragged them behind trucks, or even discriminate against them in public accomodations. The belive the race is cursed, but other than that, they are content for them to live and let live.

    As I commented on Coram’s blog, the Progressive era’s “progressiveness” only applied to white people.

    When Bigots Become Reformers
    The Progressive Era’s shameful record on race

    Also Ron, the expense of renaming schools that pay tribute to racists would be overwhelming. It would also apply to Thomas Jefferson and George Washington as they were slave owners.

  59. You seem to obsessed with 2 things: girls under the age of consent and racism. Find some forums where you can discuss those things. Maybe the KKK site you posted a link to.

  60. CaJim – you hot the nail on the head. Mad Bill thinks like a criminal and every opinion he forms and posts is borne of the criminal/anti-law/anti-law enforcement worldview. Some of his supporters seem to have a similar criminal mindset, others just seem to be morons.

  61. You seem to obsessed with 2 things: girls under the age of consent and racism.
    This forum entire meaning for existance is girls under the age of consent. Without that the raid at the YFZ ranch wouldn’t have generated the controversy it has which spark interest from people of diverse political motivations. As for racism it was Ron in Houston who brought it up; Duane merely responded to it.

    Umm Rebechah that was about as honest as you can get.

  62. As for racism it was Ron in Houston who brought it up; Duane merely responded to it.

    Yeah, that’s right, you can’t really blame Duane.

  63. OK. I guess Ron did bring it up this time, but good old skinwalker had to get his 40 cents in.

  64. So Shirtleff along with the local police has been forcing outsiders in shortcreek to leave at gunpoint. Who knew??

  65. FldsTexas BillM has an imprisoned perspective and it warps his viewpoint on every issue. He’s still behind bars and walls in his mind. This siege mentality works with his proFLDS faction and they see a earth filled with EVIL Gentiles. A real Berlin bunker mindset with de Fuhrer leading his Falling Reich. I think BillM views things in a very paranoid and delinquent understanding, he reminds me of Tony Alamo with his molten bile.

  66. Duane Duane Duane

    Unlike a lot of folks on this board, I sometimes get where you’re coming from and think you make some very valid points. However, I also understand why folks loathe you and see you as nothing more than a troll.

    I agree that the author of that article is a hyperbole filled reactionary. However, to say that no problem exists with the “governments” in Hilldale and Colorado City ignores massive amounts of evidence.

    Now I know you’ll trot out your usual analogies of the rights of citizens to elect their leaders and how there are other towns that have a predominant religion, it is a vastly different situation than when a one-man rule cult incorporates as a city.

    The fact of the matter is that there are civil rights abuses in the governments in Short Creek. The Arizona Attorney General has called a couple of times for investigations. Even if you discount the testimony of (in your mind – those evil lying) apostates, one only needs to look at the problems Bruce Wisan has had to see a clear problem with the authorities there.

    In my mind, the problem was with the States of Arizona and Utah for ever letting these folks incorporate in the first place. I think these states need to pass legislation like they did in the take over of the Colorado City school district that allows them to decertify these areas as municipalities. That way at least law enforcement would default to the larger county government. Will they do this? Probably not, because there are a lot of practical and financial problems with this solution.

  67. “the problem was with the States of Arizona and Utah for ever letting these folks incorporate in the first place”

    Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you cannot prevent a community from incorporatng based on their ethnic or religious makeup.

    About civil rights abuses by CC/Hilldale, how many of their officials have been convicted much less charged with “civil rights” abuse offenses.

    The issues with the UEP involve what the FLDS believe is their property in other words private property. There are residents in the area that have never been FLDS and some even precede the arrival of the Mormons, they aren’t the ones crying abuse.
    Property in the CC/Hilldale area that isn’t part of the UEP is not being disputed and I’m sure you or I would be more than free to purchase land and reside in the area with no issues from FLDS folk as long as it is not UEP parcels being sold off.

  68. Hey everyone, dont have much to say about the current topic so ill just nod and wave as i pass through 😛

  69. Duane anyone can set up an LLC , it’s one of the easiest and cheapest ways to set up a corporation. But it will bite you in the butt if you screw people out of money, and they sue you, which has happened over and over to FLDS.

  70. Me too kid–I’m just watching to see what pops up next. I really have stuff I need to be doing anyway…and..I am cookin’ black-eyed peas–yum!!
    Have a great weekend…it’s it so hot here in Texas…have to stay indoors..

  71. Hey Plygkid, Like your avatar! 🙂

  72. Hello Plygkid! Nice to have you on the board!

    I’ve not said hello before, so it’s very nice to meet you. 🙂

  73. Duane

    You gave me a great idea – why doesn’t Arizona make one big city out of Colorado City and Centennial Park. That would make for loads of fun, huh?

  74. Ron, if duane gave you that idea, that’s scarey!! LOL

  75. lol DD its my inner nerd shining through

    hello girl

  76. Duane,

    I thought I saw you post something about “Kindred Spirits” one day, and was wondering if you would tell me what that is. I had not heard that name before.

  77. lol its my understanding that kindered spirits is the anti-flds mafia lmao

  78. HA!! Plygkid,, you have never been a nerd,, but hey heard your working again,, Good for you!!

  79. lol DD I have been a nerd my whole life. I can prove it……..ask me anything about star wars or star trek. lmao

  80. my avtar is a world of warcraft toon for crying out loud lol

  81. Have you seen the new Star Wars movie Plygkid?

  82. Hey! I married a nerd, and he’s a great guy!! Think I’d rather have a nerd,, lot less trouble than pretty boys! LOL

  83. not the cartoon one. but the other ones yes

  84. My husband is a star wars nut! He went to see the new Star Wars movie, liked it, but said he still like the older ones better

  85. I’m a scifi nut in general. I spread my nerdism across many a franchise lol.

  86. LOL,, Ya know we have missed you being around Plygkid!! Just wanted ya ta know that! 🙂

  87. It’s good to have you answer for yourself, since duane thinks he knows everything about you from the day you were born!! LOL

  88. Yoooooooooo hoooooooo, duane, where are you??? I’m looking forward to seeing you describe the Kindred Spirits!

  89. PK, that’s no WW ‘toon. That’s a photo of you and you know it.

  90. Ya know Plygkid,you had all us women worried about you!!! You disappeared,, but we kept ya in our prayers and thoughts, so good to have you back!

  91. Mississippi Girl, Im assuming you have guessed, the KS isn’t the Keep Sweet society?? LOL LOL

  92. “lol DD I have been a nerd my whole life. I can prove it……..ask me anything about star wars or star trek. lmao”

    hehe, my daughter calls me up all the time to tell her what the T. stood for in James T. Kirk and stuff like that.

    “my avtar is a world of warcraft toon for crying out loud lol”

    And my druid is finally level 71 — only took me three years. I’m not nerdy enough yet to work 8 or more hours a day on an MMORP. 😉

  93. “PK, that’s no WW ‘toon. That’s a photo of you and you know it.”

    PK, you’re a gnome! Awesome!! One of my online friends named his gnome rogue Gnimble.

    Greetings, it WoW. You need the “o” in the middle. (World of Warcraft. 7 million players and counting.)

  94. Walton, I never listen to online audio, but I assume Lori Tom raised the question of whether Paiute were involved at all in the Mountain Meadow massacre. If so, I share her skepticism:

    “Novak and her colleagues found entrance and exit holes in the skulls of men that could only have come from gunshots fired at close range, while most women and children found died of blunt force. In her analysis of more than 2,600 bone fragments, Novak found no evidence of knives used to scalp, behead, or cut the throats, as well as no evidence of trauma from arrows. Although the study cannot determine what weapons Paiutes might have used in the massacre (if they were involved), it brings up the possibility that white men murdered all of the victims, contradicting John D. Lee’s testimony accusing Native Americans of slaughtering the women and children. To Shannon Novak, the bones could provide information that incomplete or biased histories could not. ‘Prior to this analysis, what was known about the massacre was often based on second-hand information, polemical newspaper accounts, and the testimony of known killers,’ said Novak. ‘Furthermore, what had come to be merely an abstract historical event, the “tragedy at Mountain Meadows,” now became a mass murder of specific men, women, and children with proper names and histories.’ The analysis of the remains questioned the accuracy of the historical accounts and stirred up many emotions. After five weeks, Novak’s analysis was cut short by an order from the governor of Utah, Mike Leavitt, that the bones be re-interred in time for the September anniversary.”

    (“The Mountain Meadows Massacre, ‘A Sight Which Can Never Be Forgotten’”; Archaeology, September 16, 2003)


    The area where the Paiute infant’s skeleton was found is considerably north of Berry Knoll, so it’s hard to draw conclusions based on that alone.

    Peter Gottfredson called the Berrys’ killers and the non-white victim “Indians.” Since the events happened during the Ute rebellion after the Treaty of Spanish Fork, I assumed the killers were Ute, not Paiute. Of course that still doesn’t mean that the land didn’t belong to the Paiute or that the last victim wasn’t a Paiute who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    But my larger point was that if you’re obsessed with historical claims to the land, don’t stop with the United Order in 1942—go back to the Treaty of Spanish Fork. By failing to finance the land-for-food swap, the Federal government left the Ute dispossessed and starving, which seems as good a reason as any to reopen the question of who actually owns Berry Knoll.

    We have yet to figure out who Wee Willie purports to speak for. Compared to that, figuring out which band of native people lived on Berry Knoll ought to be a piece of cake.

  95. BTW, the odometer on FLDS Texas rolled over 100,000 today. Usually I like to watch when my cars do that, but I was at work.

    Congratulations, FLDS Texas! May you have the engine of a Volvo, a Saab, a Toyota, a Honda, or a Lexus, and be a million-miler.

  96. The location isn’t a good one for a casino. There is no major airport for hundreds of miles around.

    I say this, with a somewhat disappointed tone, because I’ve been casino management in the past and have great enthusiasm for the industry. Heck I’d be happy to get casinos in Texas, too. I know my friend Kinky pushed the idea when he ran for Governor.

    I’d have liked there to be a way to make this idea work, but I just don’t see it happening, unless the federal government wants to put even more money into the Colorado City Airport than the 3 million it already gave them.

  97. I don’t think the Federal Government should give them another DIME , till they pay their taxes like everyone else!

  98. Greetings thank you for taking the time to check into this. One of the great things about posting on some of these message boards is that I’ve learned so much from the posters.

    There was a book written by Richard Walker,Richard E. Turley Jr., and Glen M. Leonard titled Massacre at Mountain Meadows. I believe that Gordon Hinckley somehow played a large role in trying to find the Truth about Mountain Meadows. I believe that Gordon Hinckley was trying to make things better. That is why imo that Lora Tom and the Paiute Tribe were even recognized this time at the Ceremony. It was one step.

    At this ceremony Lora said that it is necessary for all people to get along. For the children to have hope. To have a future. They need good people and good leadership. She said” We all need each other to work thru this story.”

    I think the same could be said about this story. Willie and those guys can’t do it. Merril hasn’t been able to do it. Wendell is out of the picture. Lyle won’t be able to do it. The little red face guy in Texas shouldn’t do it.

    The knoll hasn’t made money. Joe and Kenneth Knudson are in my opinion the wrong ones to look for an easy out. More of the same imo. Look to see how Kenneth and Joe got their companies going.

    If the Tribes were involved they would take care of the land. They would make it work. It wouldn’t have to be one or the other they could make it work together.

    The FLDS would have jobs and the Tribe is good at keeping their promises. It would provide jobs and they wouldn’t have to rely on others for help. As long as everyone follows the law it could be a win win situation.

    Keep Shurtleff out of the picture and Gary Engles in the picture and it could work. Despite what they say about Wisan he is a man that knows his numbers. He has also been a fair man imo. He could help make this all work for everyone.

    I’d really like to see Ruth have a house in town. A place to call her own so she could visit her kids. I know she likes her place out in the country but just a little house in town would be nice.

    Thanks again Greetings.

  99. Boots,

    Girl you do make me smile. It could work though. Look what Kevin Costner did in South Dakota. The natives know how to work with what they’ve got.

    I’ve said this over at the InSessions board but I think YOU have what it takes to make this thing go off the ground. You have the connections, knowledge and you have that determination.

    Now here is where Ron and Bluseman come in. Guys if you don’t mind could you put something together in your head that might make this work for both groups with not one side or the other owning any land but leasing on the option to buy? No one could own any property for 50 years. But in such a way that they all make money. But everyone would have to work at it together.

    The one major rule would be that they ALL have to follow the laws.
    Gary Engles I am sure would still like to retire some time soon. 🙂

    If Willie isn’t in jail when this goes up he could be the security guard at the gate.

  100. Walton, I have been reading the Berry Knoll transcript this evening but too many distractions! I will finish it in the morning before work.

    It is absolutely fascinating so far. I thought it was sad that Mary Harker said, “We shouldn’t have to choose between our religion and our farm. In fact, they are one and the same.” Sad because she feels that she has to make that choice, sad because she conflates her religion and the farm.

    Also Jethrow Barlow pointed out, “[T]here are different constituencies within the church than there are within the trust or within the voting block in the community.” He is the first person I’ve read about who has seen the problem as overlapping spheres of influence. This is my issue with saying that Wee Willie “speaks for 4000 people.” Who knows what groups within the FLDS he represents and what other groups those people play against?

    I got as far as Ken Okazaki’s comments about the financial structure of the offer, which was the most interesting thing so far. I want to read Bruce Wisan’s answers in re: the interest rates, the water rights, and the financial reliability of the potential buyers.

  101. Goodnight, all, and congratulations again on FLDS Texas going over 100,000 hits. What a player it has proven to be!

  102. You got a deal, Walton. If you can get TBM and Ron to organize the whole thing, I’ll be more than happy to come up and help the casino off the ground. Of course I am getting older now, so we’ll have someone else wear the skimpy clothing and announce the big money give-aways on the floor. My staff never even kept a calendar. They knew by how much cleavage was showing when I walked in every day, how much money we were giving away. One of them used to watch me walk into the office and he would stand up and yell through the department, “k.Dee’s here and its a BIG GIVEAWAY DAY”! Then he would look smugly at me and say, “That looks like at least 15 grand worth”.

    Can I tell Willie, “You’re FIRED”?

  103. Parley Harker did work hard from what I’ve read as did many of the other people that lived there. But they did sign the paper.They might not see it now, but what is going on is in the best interest of the FLDS and the Harker farms. When it stops raining dust blows every which way.

    The saying what goes around comes around. What I’d like to see is all of those people that paid Rod Parker ask for their monies back. Standing in line at Snow, Snow and Avalanche. lol Heck, Snow should ask Parker for their monies back.

    Thanks Greetings.

  104. I only know Blues and Ron thru the message board circles. But I will try to find my log in name at Blues place. I trust these guys for some reason and I think if they say I am off base, I will understand and try to come up with another.

    Whatever it is though it has to involve saving the lands for future use. Not just today. And not just for CPark.

    Boots you don’t need to wear skimpy anythng. Your smile and determination is worth 15 grand easy.

    I’d love to see anyone say Willie your Fired.

    Good night folks. And thanks.

  105. Thank you, Walton, for making me smile before bed.

    Night-night everyone.

  106. Seems to me that you are making that argument that all European whites who came over the ocean should reimburse the native americans descendants for land taken during our initial settlements and further migrations west.

    Alinusara10 said this on August 7, 2009 at 10:59 AM

    Darn right they should! The Indians/Native Americans REALLY got screwed without getting kissed.

    They WERE here first! At least in the American West. There is still some dispute about who was here first on the East Coast. LOL

  107. OOOOPPS, I got happy fingers there.

    What I was trying to say to Ron was that we should petition to have Brigham Young University renamed to “Bring’em Young” Universtiy.

  108. In my mind, the problem was with the States of Arizona and Utah for ever letting these folks incorporate in the first place. I think these states need to pass legislation like they did in the take over of the Colorado City school district that allows them to decertify these areas as municipalities. That way at least law enforcement would default to the larger county government. Will they do this? Probably not, because there are a lot of practical and financial problems with this solution.

    Ron in Houston said this on August 7, 2009 at 2:09 PM

    Ron, you are so spot on here. A few years ago there was discussion about disincorporating the Twin Cities. That would be the ONLY way to get rid of the dirty cops, utility companies, etc. in the area.

    Sadly, it ain’t going to happen today. That discussion was a few years ago. Then came the UEP debacle. And then some influential people did a 180 degree turn on the situation. They bailed and let down the “little guy”.

    Now, it’s all just one hellofa big mess. and all of the people living there suffer. Those in the sect and those “others” just living in the community.

    Welcome to Utah, Ron.

  109. O Boots, you know my SEEgar-sucking Texas jewboy neighbor?

  110. Utes and Paiutes, as well as Athapascans (Navajo and later Apache, coming down from the NW) didn’t begin arriving in the area until the end and/or past the heyday of the settled chaocoan (irrigated corn & crop, distinctive ceramics) Anasazi culture, and the weather changing to cooler and drier. I guess that last little ice age settling in. All that pushed people to be more defensive, less open, about scarce resources.

    All that to say that some people leave more evidence of their residence than others passing through. You can perhaps easily classify differences between settled Navajo, and their Apache cousins. Although I never made a point of studying either Ute or Paiute cultures they’re known as nomadic or migratory hunter/gatherers.

    That’s all I meant to say. What’s found of their culture on the ground’s surface is about what there would be remaining, and “airhead” collectors and gravity would by now long have cleared the Berry Knoll area. “Hard” archaeological remains wouldn’t amount to much, a lithic tradition contrast perhaps?

  111. Hey GrannyToad, yeah, I know him. I haven’t talked to him since last year sometime. I keep expecting to run into him at HEB when I’m in Kerrville or something. I hate talking to him on the phone. He always answers by booming, “START TALKING!”, like he has an egg timer going on you – or maybe a bomb timer… he’s a Scorpio. I have stolen what I think is one of his best lines ever, though, “I cannot get married because I am already married to Texas”.

  112. On the incorporation of Colorado City, I asked Buster specifically about that on a TV interview show we were on together once. He said the Mohave County BOD granted the incorporation [sometime in the 80’s] because they met certain requirements, such as population in order to get it.

    By the time Buster was elected to the BOD the county was completely corrupted to their influence. There are only 3 board members and Buster is always the lone ‘no’ vote on awarding contracts to FLDS owned companies and giving them special consideration in other areas.

    He was the one who finally pressured the Mohave County Sheriff and Mohave County Attorney to hire Gary Engles as a special investigator and get some real law enforcement up there.

    The entire Mohave County case against the 8 men arrested and brought to trial was based on a file that Flora handed to them, showing birth certificates issued to underage mothers.

    It always tickles me that they run around up there trash talking Flora, when they never even had to investigate anything, because she delivered their cases for them in a neat little package. Then they promptly managed to blow almost every single case and turn around and spread rumors about how ‘crazy’ she is.

    Yeah, she’s crazy alright, like a fox.

  113. FLDS Texas do you know if Rulon Keate, father of Britton Keate is the son of Allen Keaate who is one of the indicted?

  114. Thanks, Granny, for the comments about Berry Knoll. I am a little confused about the southern Paiute, since they were the victims of slave raids by the Navaho and Ute, which makes me think of them as being perhaps less nomadic than their northern cousins. But this is rank supposition on my part—I know a few things about the Iroquois Confederacy and am ignorant about the rest of Native American culture.

    I was thinking that settler accounts would be the best source of detailed information. Nomadic people have territories just as settled people do but they don’t tend to leave villages, middens, or cemeteries behind.

    BTW, I don’t advocate returning all lands to the tribes. To do so would be silly, since these lands were (as you noted) taken by said tribes from prior occupants. Such is the nature of human existence. But in this case, nobody seems to agree on who should control Berry Knoll, and the Federal government clearly reneged on the support negotiated under the Treaty of Spanish Fork. So I say let’s roll the lease back one tenant and go with the Native Americans.

  115. I canot even say I know of or if there’s any cultural or language difference between Ute and (southern) Paiute, it’s all “Uto Aztecan” to me, meaning the language came up out of Mexico. I think they refer to the same people.

    I see no necessary point of trying to find a Ute buyer for that knoll since there already is a buyer and valid offer that already understands the aquifer. Dontcha just love the old west water wars. There were some salt wars too.

    Or, you said lease. What would be the point of offering a lease?

    The engineer had already discussed the aquifer in brief so it was stupid of The Mouth to babble on with the imaginary horror stories based upon ignorance of how it all works.

    To inject a personal note, I have NO idea why rainwater collection from roofs in aboveground cisterns isn’t a normal way of life there where annual rainfall isn’t greatly above 12, 13, 14″. That’s a lot of water that could and should be controlled.

  116. A short story by Stamp


    In a small town, some folks from out of state moved in and well, kept to themselves. In town there was Alan the wedding cake baker.

    Over the years, Alan bought on order sets of grooms and brides to adorn his cakes.

    Well, some gay guys wanted a private ceremony and they needed two grooms. OOPS now he had too many brides.

    But the next week, some lesbians came in and wanted two brides.

    OK, now Alan was even. And the stream of “regular” marriages kept his inventory pretty much even over the months.

    Now in walks one of the new strangers, Hyrum. “Ah’ll take one Groom and 3 Brides” Hyrum drawls.

    The baker accomodates him, but now his stock is out of whack. Over the next two months Alan has several more such requests and he is flat out of brides. So he orders more and can only get 4 sets of brides and grooms a week, and he cant just order brides.

    So after a year goes by, he is astonished to find that he has 213 grooms in a drawer and he is flat out of brides to sell.

    And then he begins to wonder. What happened to the other REAL 213 Grooms who didnt match up with those brides?

    Where did THEY go to get cakes with brides?

    The drawer of toy grooms stare up at him with 213 sets of soulful eyes, laying there in disarray, as if waiting, knowing that they will end up in the trash can.

  117. Guess someone in that town is going to have to start marrying little girls, eh Stamp?

  118. Rebeckah

    That, and kick out the boys and men who fart in church!

  119. Stamp, my friend, that was a lovely story.

    Now have I ever told you about the psychopath who ordered a cake with 180 brides on it? It ended up exploding on him.

  120. Case Information
    Case Number: J-0803-CR-20080143
    Title: ST OF AZ VS JESSOP DEE YEATES Category: Criminal
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 12/17/2008
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date:

    DEE YEATES JESSOP DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 7/27/1966
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  121. Case Number: J-0803-CR-20090032
    Title: ST OF AZ VS JESSOP DENNIS CAL Category: Criminal
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 02/16/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date:

    DENNIS CALVIN JESSOP DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 5/16/1973
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  122. Case Number: J-0803-CR-20070038
    Title: ST OF AZ VS JESSOP EZRA SCOTT Category: Criminal
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 03/21/2007
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 05/24/2007

    EZRA SCOTT JESSOP DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 5/20/1989
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  123. Case Number: J-0803-TR-20090389
    Title: ST OF AZ VS JESSOP JOSEPH CHA Category: Traffic
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 02/08/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 03/18/2009

    JOSEPH CHARLES JESSOP DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 8/5/1976
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  124. Case Number: J-0803-CR-20080132
    Title: ST OF AZ VS JESSOP RANDY CLAN Category: Criminal
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 11/24/2008
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date:

    RANDY CLANE JESSOP DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 2/11/1988
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  125. So Dee Jessop got busted for harrassing people in the crick too?

    “Repeated Acts” LMAO what a goon!

    Remember this is Willies brother!

  126. Case Number: J-0803-TR-20070020
    Title: ST OF AZ VS BARLOW ANSON SAMU Category: Traffic
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 01/02/2007
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 12/29/2008

    ANSON SAMUEL BARLOW DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 2/8/1986
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  127. Case Number: J-0803-CR-20080146
    Title: ST OF AZ VS BARLOW EPHRAIM DA Category: Traffic
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 12/24/2008
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date:

    EPHRAIM DANIEL BARLOW DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 2/14/1986
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition
    D11080621 3 DUI LIQUOR BAC .08 OR MORE 1ST
    D11080621 4 LOCAL CHARGE

  128. Case Number: J-0803-CR-20090163
    Title: ST OF AZ VS BARLOW GEORGE IAN Category: Criminal
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 07/30/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date:

    GEORGE IANTHIUS BARLOW DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 10/18/1989
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  129. Case Number: J-0803-CR-20070037
    Title: ST OF AZ VS BARLOW JAMES ABIN Category: Criminal
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 03/16/2007
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 05/16/2007

    JAMES ABINIDI BARLOW DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 5/16/1987
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  130. Case Number: J-0803-TR-20081511
    Title: ST OF AZ VS BARLOW KATHLEEN Category: Traffic
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 04/16/2008
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date:

    KATHLEEN BARLOW DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 2/16/1968
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition
    D10877539 2 NO VALID LICENSE 01/05/2009 FAILURE TO APPEAR

    Case Activity
    Date Description Party
    04/23/2009 RSLT: FAILURE TO APPEAR

  131. Case Number: J-0803-CV-20090070
    Title: Category: Civil
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 07/24/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 07/24/2009

    PARLEY JAMES BARLOW DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 1/1/1994











    Case Activity
    Date Description Party
    12/31/2009 CAL: MISCELLANEOUS
    07/28/2009 PO SERVED D 1
    07/28/2009 FAX SENT
    07/24/2009 PO HEARING HELD P 1
    07/24/2009 PO ISSUED P 1
    07/24/2009 PO PETITION FILED

  132. Case Number: J-0803-CR-20090107
    Title: ST OF AZ VS BARLOW RUDOLPH DE Category: Criminal
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 04/30/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 07/20/2009

    RUDOLPH DEAN BARLOW DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 1/16/1989
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  133. Case Number: J-0803-JV-20090031
    Title: ST OF AZ VS BARLOW SARAH L Category: Criminal
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 04/08/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 05/20/2009

    SARAH L BARLOW DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 11/23/1991
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  134. Case Number: J-0803-CR-21101
    Title: ST OF AZ VS BARLOW Category: Criminal
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 11/04/2002
    Judge: None Disposition Date: 01/06/2003

    STEVEN WILFORD BARLOW DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 3/22/1970
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  135. Case Number: J-0803-CR-980406
    Title: ST OF AZ VS JEFFS PAUL HARKER Category: Criminal
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 04/06/1998
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 07/06/2009

    PAUL HARKER JEFFS DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 5/14/1972
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  136. Case Number: J-0803-CV-20090064
    Title: Category: Civil
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 07/08/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 07/08/2009

    RESTRICTED PLAINTIFF – P 1 Date of Birth: 9/24/1964



    CHARLES W. STEED DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 8/29/1990

    Case Activity
    Date Description Party
    12/31/2009 CAL: MISCELLANEOUS
    07/14/2009 PO SERVED D 1
    07/14/2009 FAX SENT
    07/08/2009 PO ISSUED P 1
    07/08/2009 PO HEARING HELD P 1
    07/08/2009 PO PETITION FILED

  137. Case Number: J-0803-CV-20090071
    Title: Category: Civil
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 07/25/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 07/25/2009


    RESTRICTED PLAINTIFF – P 1 Date of Birth: 6/13/1962

    CHARLES W. STEED DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 8/29/1990

    Case Activity
    Date Description Party
    12/31/2009 CAL: MISCELLANEOUS
    07/28/2009 PO SERVED D 1
    07/28/2009 FAX SENT
    07/27/2009 TELEPHONE CALL
    07/25/2009 PO HEARING HELD P 1
    07/25/2009 PO ISSUED P 1
    07/25/2009 PO PETITION FILED

  138. Case Number: J-0803-CV-20090065
    Title: Category: Civil
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 07/08/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 07/08/2009

    RESTRICTED PLAINTIFF – P 1 Date of Birth: 9/24/1964



    DANIEL W. STEED DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 9/16/1992

    Case Activity
    Date Description Party
    12/31/2009 CAL: MISCELLANEOUS
    07/10/2009 PO SERVED D 1
    07/08/2009 PO HEARING HELD P 1
    07/08/2009 PO ISSUED P 1
    07/08/2009 PO PETITION FILED

  139. Case Number: J-0803-CV-20080010
    Title: CAPITAL ONE VS ALLRED DAVID Category: Civil
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 03/06/2008
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 07/30/2008




  140. Case Number: J-0803-TR-20041438
    Title: ST OF AZ VS HOLM ALLEN B Category: Traffic
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 04/01/2004
    Judge: I. MCKAY HEATON Disposition Date: 05/19/2004

    ALLEN B HOLM DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 6/20/1973
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  141. Case Number: J-0803-CR-10606
    Title: ST OF AZ VS HOLM CARL ALMA Category: Criminal
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 06/04/2001
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 01/26/2007

    CARL ALMA HOLM DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 5/14/1977
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  142. Case Number: J-0803-CV-20090017
    Title: Category: Civil
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 02/18/2009
    Judge: None Disposition Date: 02/18/2009

    CELESTA HOLM DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 1/1/1992



    Case Activity
    Date Description Party
    12/31/2009 CAL: MISCELLANEOUS
    03/18/2009 CAL: MISCELLANEOUS
    03/18/2009 RSLT: COMPLIANCE
    03/09/2009 AFF OF NON-SERVICE
    03/02/2009 PO SERVED D 1
    02/26/2009 PO SERVED D 1
    02/26/2009 FAX SENT
    02/18/2009 PO HEARING HELD P 1
    02/18/2009 PO ISSUED P 1
    02/18/2009 PO PETITION FILED

  143. Case Number: J-0803-CR-20080007
    Title: ST OF AZ VS HOLM MILTON OTTO Category: Criminal
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 01/14/2008
    Judge: None Disposition Date: 03/07/2008

    MILTON OTTO HOLM DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 4/12/1956
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  144. Case Number: J-0803-CR-20090064
    Title: ST OF AZ VS DUTSON GABRIEL NE Category: Criminal
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 03/13/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 06/01/2009

    GABRIEL NEWLAND DUTSON DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 3/2/1991
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  145. Case Number: J-0803-CR-20070137
    Title: ST OF AZ VS DUTSON MARKO JVAR Category: Criminal
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 09/17/2007
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 02/14/2008

    MARKO JVAR DUTSON DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 3/18/1933
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  146. Case Number: J-0803-CR-20080065
    Title: ST OF AZ VS DOCKSTADER HARVEY Category: Criminal
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 05/19/2008
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 07/02/2008

    HARVEY JOSEPH DOCKSTADER DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 9/3/1989
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  147. Case Number: J-0803-TR-20083297
    Title: ST OF AZ VS DOCKSTADER RHODA Category: Traffic
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 10/15/2008
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 10/29/2008

    RHODA DOCKSTADER DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 1/13/1964
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  148. Case Number: J-0803-CR-20701
    Title: ST OF AZ VS DOCKSTADER Category: Criminal
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 07/17/2002
    Judge: I. MCKAY HEATON Disposition Date: 03/10/2003

    THERAL RAY DOCKSTADER DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 6/30/1979
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  149. Case Number: J-0803-CR-20070014
    Title: ST OF AZ VS DOCKSTADER THERAL Category: Criminal
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 01/26/2007
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 02/22/2007

    THERAL RAY DOCKSTADER DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 6/30/1979
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  150. Case Number: J-0803-TR-940114
    Title: ST OF AZ VS FISCHER RICHARD W Category: Traffic
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 01/19/1994
    Judge: None Disposition Date: 02/19/2009

    RICHARD WAYNE FISCHER DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 2/17/1968
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  151. Apparently, the Mohave County sheriff seems to be enforcing the laws in the Creek. Now what they need to do is redistrict the JP’s so they can get rid of this Kalauli wacko.

  152. Case Number: J-0803-JV-20080076
    Title: ST OF AZ VS COOKE BENJAMIN MA Category: Criminal
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 11/24/2008
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date:

    BENJAMIN MARION COOKE DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 1/27/1991
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  153. Case Number: J-0803-CV-20090015
    Title: Category: Civil
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 02/18/2009
    Judge: None Disposition Date: 02/18/2009

    MITCH COOKE DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 2/15/1991



  154. Case Number: J-0803-CV-20080017
    Title: Category: Civil
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 03/17/2008
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 03/17/2008

    STEPHANIE COOKE DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 10/1/1992

    RESTRICTED MINOR – M 4 Date of Birth: 5/6/1996

    RESTRICTED MINOR – M 1 Date of Birth: 5/5/1992

    RESTRICTED MINOR – M 3 Date of Birth: 9/13/1998

    RESTRICTED PLAINTIFF – P 1 Date of Birth: 5/5/1967


  155. Case Number: J-0803-TR-20091011
    Title: ST OF AZ VS MUSSER MATTHEW ST Category: Traffic
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 04/13/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 04/22/2009

    MATTHEW STEED MUSSER DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 12/14/1977
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  156. Case Number: J-0803-CV-20090036
    Title: Category: Civil
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 04/03/2009
    Judge: None Disposition Date: 04/03/2009

    PARLEY MUSSER DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 1/19/1993

    RESTRICTED PLAINTIFF – P 1 Date of Birth: 10/14/1957


    Case Activity
    Date Description Party
    12/31/2009 CAL: MISCELLANEOUS
    05/04/2009 RSLT: COMPLIANCE
    05/04/2009 CAL: MISCELLANEOUS
    04/08/2009 PO SERVED D 1
    04/03/2009 PO HEARING HELD P 1
    04/03/2009 PO ISSUED P 1
    04/03/2009 PO PETITION FILED

  157. Case Number: J-0803-CV-20090019
    Title: Category: Civil
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 02/18/2009
    Judge: None Disposition Date: 02/18/2009

    RUTH MUSSER DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 12/25/1988



    Case Activity
    Date Description Party
    12/31/2009 CAL: MISCELLANEOUS
    03/18/2009 RSLT: COMPLIANCE
    03/18/2009 CAL: MISCELLANEOUS
    02/23/2009 PO SERVED D 1
    02/23/2009 FAX SENT
    02/18/2009 PO ISSUED P 1
    02/18/2009 PO HEARING HELD P 1
    02/18/2009 PO PETITION FILED

  158. This is just a few of ONE JP court where Flds have either gotten tickets, being sued by Financial Institutions, or filed for Protective orders.

  159. Case Number: J-0803-TR-20072316
    Title: ST OF AZ VS WILLIAMS BRANDON Category: Traffic
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 09/10/2007
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 01/22/2008

    BRANDON GUY WILLIAMS DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 3/2/1988
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  160. Case Number: J-0803-CV-20090068
    Title: Category: Civil
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 07/08/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 07/22/2009





    RESTRICTED PLAINTIFF – P 1 Date of Birth: 4/10/1983


    RUBY WILLIAMS DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 1/1/1954

    Case Activity
    Date Description Party
    12/31/2009 RSLT: COMPLIANCE
    12/31/2009 CAL: MISCELLANEOUS
    07/22/2009 PO QUASHED/DISMISSED P 1
    07/22/2009 RSLT: I/H HEARING HELD
    07/14/2009 TELEPHONE CALL
    07/13/2009 TELEPHONE CALL D 1
    07/13/2009 RECEIVED: FAX
    07/10/2009 PO SERVED D 1
    07/10/2009 TELEPHONE CALL
    07/09/2009 TELEPHONE CALL
    07/08/2009 PO ISSUED P 1
    07/08/2009 PO HEARING HELD P 1
    07/08/2009 PO PETITION FILED

  161. What local law enforcement does take seriously in the Creek is harassing leaseholders. Read the Berry Knoll hearing transcript here:

    Isaac Wyler testified that he experienced “weekly cases of severe vandalism, the worst of which occurred when someone drove through a couple hundred feet of fence with their truck and run down one of my main breeding stallions I’d purchased in Kentucky. The stallion had his back broke and so I had to put him down.”

    Wyler then described in great detail Dan Johnson and Willie Jessop’s efforts to take over the Berry Knoll property without a lease. “[W]e have had ongoing problems to this day with Dan Johnson and Willie Jessop gazing their sheep and cows on the property without permission from the fiduciary. Bruce asked me to talk to Dan about it and I even offered to fill out the paperwork and be a go-between for him but Dan refused for the same reasons that Merlin had. Dan and Willie do not have lease agreements and have been specifically told not to place their animals on the land, but that didn’t stop them…”

    Now, will someone please tell me why Isaac Wyler was convicted of trespassing in Justice Kalauli’s court, and Johnson and Jessop have never even been charged with it?

  162. Boots

    Is Buster Johnson sort of a “lone ranger” on the Mohave County BOS? It’s not too surprising, money, politics, and corruption seem to always fit together like a hand in a glove.

    I guess the only saving grace is that the FLDS seem to be having severe cash flow problems of late.

  163. Greetings

    Perhaps you should pose those very relevant questions to Duane Skinwalker (aka Darth Pliggy)

  164. Ron, I will do that next time he shows up.

    As you can imagine, I’m pretty exercised about that horse. It must have been terrified and in pain. I’m inferring a pretty straight line from that vandalism to the squatters, Johnson and Jessop. If I had solid evidence that one of them did it, he’d be eating his own testicles for breakfast, cooked while partly still attached.

    After which, I’d forgive him, of course.

  165. Hey GFNY,

    When I read Isaac’s account — my first thought was if Willie tried to pull that crap in the rural area of Texas where my brother lives — he’d find his cattle dead the next day. (brutal yes, but bullies like Willie don’t get subtleties) Frankly, he might catch a bullet in his own ample arse.

  166. Why punish his cattle? Wheezy Willie probably can’t run very fast.

    For those of you interested in reading the account of the trespassing on Isaac Wyler’s lease, it starts on page 53:

  167. Why punish his cattle? Wheezy Willie probably can’t run very fast.

    Well, I’ll bet the cattle thank their lucky stars about that! 🙂

  168. Round them all up and arrest Willie’s cows and sheep for tresspassing [on Berry Knoll] and hold them as ‘evidence’…I don’t know if there are other farm animals there…but they can all graze together until Willie can prove they are his and have a right to be there. Silly, I know, but it never hurts to mention!

  169. I’m still laughing, Ron.

  170. Case Number: J-0801-FR-200700455
    Title: STATE VS SANDRA STEED Category: Criminal
    Court: Kingman Justice Filing Date: 04/10/2007
    Judge: JOHN TAYLOR Disposition Date:

    SANDRA KAY STEED DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 3/4/1967
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  171. Isabella of France finally had enough of her horrid husband, Edward II. So she mustered an army and overthrew his government. Because of the political situation, she couldn’t put the daft buggerer on trial, so she arranged his death. (Good move, too, since her son Edward III was one of England’s great kings.)

    Legend has it that it was done with a branding iron applied to his interior. Left no marks.

    I can’t imagine why I just thought of that. Must’ve been the branding iron.

  172. Case Number: J-0803-CV-20090039
    Title: Category: Civil
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 04/03/2009
    Judge: None Disposition Date: 04/03/2009

    RESTRICTED PLAINTIFF – P 1 Date of Birth: 10/14/1957


    DENISE WYLER DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 9/2/1991

    Case Activity
    Date Description Party
    12/31/2009 CAL: MISCELLANEOUS
    05/04/2009 RSLT: COMPLIANCE
    05/04/2009 CAL: MISCELLANEOUS
    04/08/2009 PO SERVED D 1
    04/03/2009 PO ISSUED P 1
    04/03/2009 PO HEARING HELD P 1
    04/03/2009 PO PETITION FILED

  173. Ron

    Every once in a while Willie catches one. Hes almost up there with Warren now.

  174. Listen Folks, Flds is spread far and wide From Texas to Canada, colorado, New Mexico, Nevada, Idaho, Wyoming, South Dakota, Montana, Utah and Arizona. There has got to be ONE state that can’t be BOUGHT off!!!!

  175. May I kindly volunteer the great state of Texas for your purpose?

    We’ve had a rocky start but I think we can yet pull out of the dive.

  176. Boots, I sure hope so, when you read all the suits from people and companies suing Flds for fraud, and they are still getting away with it,, it’s depressing!!

  177. My granny always says “If wishes were horses poor men would ride”.

    Let us pray that Texas is in fact still full of riders and not wishers.

  178. Case Number: J-0803-CR-20070116
    Title: ST OF AZ VS STUBBS JEFFREY SH Category: Criminal
    Court: Moccasin Justice Filing Date: 07/27/2007
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 08/14/2007

    JEFFREY SHAD STUBBS DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 9/22/1988
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

    Anyone know who the City Attorney of Colorado City Ariz is?

  179. DD

    My guess is that “cty atty” stands for county attorney. They would be the ones responsible for prosecution of things like sexual assault.

    Most city attorney’s only do very low level misdemeanors.

  180. Is it William Ekstrom ?

  181. So it’s Matt Smith,, he is county attorney in Mohave County.

  182. He ought to have his ASS whooped,for dismissing sexual assault and burglary cases!!

  183. DD

    You need to remember that often there will ultimately be no complaining witness in these cases. Unless the state can prove their case on other grounds, they often should just dismiss it.

  184. The city attorney is an attorney in private practice that is engaged by the city to represent the city and its officials. The attorney is selected and screened by the city managers and council and is essentially a hired gun for the FLDS. It’s not Matt Smith and it’s not William Ekstrom or whoever you asked about DD.

  185. I looked Flds Texas, Colorado City Arizona has NO city Attorney.
    So Im figuring Ron is correct, its the County Attorney.
    In researching Flds and their habits of getting traffic tickets over and over for the same damn thing,(No Proof of Insurance, No seat belts for children, No driver’s license, or invalid driver’s license and seeing them all dismissed after a “telephone call” it’s a real injustice we have this many people driving without documentation, who don’t know how to drive or the laws of operating a motor vehicle. No wonder so many accidents happen to them!!!

  186. One Flds member had 12 traffic tickets in a 2yr period! All for the same damn thing!

  187. Ron, you cannot think of this community in terms of what normally happens or reasonable explanations for things. In this case it is an FLDS run city government and judiciary. Although the city attorney is not a member of the FLDS, he is selected by them and screened carefully and he is hired to do their bidding. Their bidding, as we all should be aware now, is to harass and alienate non-FLDS members and to protect and insulate FLDS members in good standing. Look at the lists of dispositions of criminal charges. Kaluali is corrupt and is biased in favor of the FLDS. He is the son or nephew of a former judge who was similarly biased. Kalauli does not even try to cleverly disguise his bias. DUI offenses are NEVER dismissed.

    This community abuses the law and the judiciary to oppress non-members and to protect their own. Read the transcript of the Berry Knoll hearing of the accounts of Isaac Wyler and Geneve (Can’t remember her last name). Those accounts are not exaggerations, they are the tip of the iceberg.

  188. DD — there is no city attorney that occupies that position year-round. They hire a private attorney to act as city attorney on a case by case basis. I am certain about this — it is not the county attorney, it is not Matt Smith.

  189. This guy is still Flds as far as I know and look at his criminal citations.

    J-0803-CR-20030058 SHELLY RAE WILLIAMS DEFENDANT 4/4/1962 BEAVER DAM, AZ 86432 Moccasin Justice
    J-0803-CR-20030078 SHELLY RAE WILLIAMS DEFENDANT 4/4/1962 BEAVER DAM, AZ 86432 Moccasin Justice
    J-0803-CR-20040082 SHELLY RAE WILLIAMS DEFENDANT 4/4/1962 BEAVER DAM, AZ 86432 Moccasin Justice
    J-0803-CV-20050027 SHELLY RAE WILLIAMS DEFENDANT 4/4/1962 BEAVER DAM, AZ 86432 Moccasin Justice
    J-0803-CR-20050083 SHELLY RAE WILLIAMS DEFENDANT 4/4/1962 BEAVER DAM, AZ 86432 Moccasin Justice
    J-0803-CR-20050113 SHELLY RAE WILLIAMS DEFENDANT 4/4/1962 BEAVER DAM, AZ 86432 Moccasin Justice
    J-0803-CR-20050128 SHELLY RAE WILLIAMS DEFENDANT 4/4/1962 MESQUITE, NV 89024 Moccasin Justice
    J-0803-CR-20050143 SHELLY RAE WILLIAMS DEFENDANT 4/4/1962 BEAVER DAM, AZ 86432 Moccasin Justice
    J-0803-CR-20060004 SHELLY RAE WILLIAMS DEFENDANT 4/4/1962 SALT LAKE CITY, UT 84123 Moccasin Justice
    J-0803-TR-20070391 SHELLY RAE WILLIAMS DEFENDANT 4/4/1962 SALT LAKE CITY, UT 84123 Moccasin Justice
    J-0803-CR-20070080 SHELLY RAE WILLIAMS DEFENDANT 4/4/1962 BEAVER DAM, AZ 86432 Moccasin Justice
    J-0803-CR-20080084 SHELLY RAE WILLIAMS DEFENDANT 4/4/1962 BEAVER DAM, AZ 86432 Moccasin Justice

  190. citations were for Theft, Criminal DamagedEFace Disorderly Conduct
    Crimnial Trepass 3rd degree Deg/Property
    another Criminal Trespass 1st degree
    Contempt of Court
    Disorderly Conduct
    Interferring with Judical Proceedings
    Order of Protection Violation

    Every damn one dismissed by County Attorney!!!

  191. Case Number: M-0845-JV-20090051
    Title: ST OF AZ VS ROHBOCK MALISSA Category: Criminal
    Court: Colorado City Municipal Filing Date: 06/09/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date:

    MALISSA ROHBOCK DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 8/13/1993
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition
    C00006302 2 LOCAL CHARGE

  192. Case Number: M-0845-JV-20090050
    Title: ST OF AZ VS ROHBOCK JESSICA Category: Criminal
    Court: Colorado City Municipal Filing Date: 06/09/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date:

    JESSICA ROHBOCK DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 12/23/1991
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition
    C00006301 2 LOCAL CHARGE

  193. Case Number: M-0845-JV-20090054
    Title: ST OF AZ VS MUSSER MATTHEW LY Category: Criminal
    Court: Colorado City Municipal Filing Date: 06/16/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 07/02/2009

    MATTHEW LYMAN MUSSER DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 8/11/1991
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  194. For the legal folks…..isn’t there any precident for the feds to come in and take over when a local government this case allows illegal activity to comtinue as a way of life?

  195. Case Number: M-0845-JV-20090007
    Title: ST OF AZ VS MUSSER PARLEY JOH Category: Criminal
    Court: Colorado City Municipal Filing Date: 01/20/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date: 02/12/2009

    PARLEY JOHNSON MUSSER DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 1/19/1993
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  196. Case Number: M-0845-JV-20090044
    Title: ST OF AZ VS MUSSER PARLEY JOH Category: Criminal
    Court: Colorado City Municipal Filing Date: 04/23/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date:

    PARLEY JOHNSON MUSSER DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 1/19/1993
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition
    C00006207 2 LOCAL CHARGE

  197. Case Number: M-0845-CR-20090007
    Title: ST OF AZ VS MUSSER RUTHANN N. Category: Criminal
    Court: Colorado City Municipal Filing Date: 02/17/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date:

    RUTHANN N. MUSSER DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 12/25/1988
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition

  198. Uh, yep, that’s Matt Smith, the Mohave County Attorney. I know him.

    Aren’t you glad you didn’t live near it and have to watch it in real life for four years?

    Yes, FLDS Texas, it IS Matt Smith responsible for dropping charges.

    I know everyone here wants to believe that the Mohave County government is so on your side and just wants to help you but I do find it my unfortunate responsibility to disabuse you of such happy thoughts.

    Same song next verse:


  199. Boots, Im not surprised at all!!

  200. Case Number: M-0845-CR-20090017
    Title: ST OF AZ VS JOHNSON JEREMIAH Category: Criminal
    Court: Colorado City Municipal Filing Date: 05/04/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date:

    JEREMIAH JOHNSON DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 1/31/1972
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition
    C00006252 1 ISSUING BAD CHECK
    C00006252 2 ISSUING BAD CHECK
    C00006252 3 ISSUING BAD CHECK
    C00006252 4 ISSUING BAD CHECK
    C00006252 5 ISSUING BAD CHECK
    C00006252 6 ISSUING BAD CHECK
    C00006253 7 ISSUING BAD CHECK
    C00006253 8 ISSUING BAD CHECK
    C00006253 9 ISSUING BAD CHECK
    C00006253 10 ISSUING BAD CHECK
    C00006253 11 ISSUING BAD CHECK
    C00006253 12 ISSUING BAD CHECK
    C00006254 13 ISSUING BAD CHECK
    C00006254 14 ISSUING BAD CHECK
    C00006254 15 ISSUING BAD CHECK
    C00006254 16 ISSUING BAD CHECK
    C00006254 17 ISSUING BAD CHECK
    C00006254 18 ISSUING BAD CHECK
    C00006255 19 ISSUING BAD CHECK
    C00006255 20 ISSUING BAD CHECK
    C00006255 21 ISSUING BAD CHECK
    C00006255 22 ISSUING BAD CHECK
    C00006255 23 ISSUING BAD CHECK
    C00006255 24 ISSUING BAD CHECK
    C00006256 25 ISSUING BAD CHECK

    Damn maybe that’s the way they fund FLDS??? LOL

  201. Case Number: M-0845-CR-20090020
    Title: ST OF AZ VS JOHNSON KENDALL L Category: Criminal
    Court: Colorado City Municipal Filing Date: 05/27/2009
    Judge: MITCHELL KALAULI Disposition Date:

    KENDALL LUCAS JOHNSON DEFENDANT – D 1 Date of Birth: 6/27/1970
    Citation Count Description Disp. Date Disposition
    C00005012 1 ISSUING BAD CHECK

  202. Duh – uh, how come I still have checks if I dont have money in the bank?

    HAW – Bet Warren quit taking checks for tithes!

    EWWWW maybe thats a good way to get bounced out of your house!

  203. No Boots it is not Smith dropping charges in Kalauli’s JP court when it is a municipal filing. That is incorrect.

  204. Okay, well, then I will stand corrected and simply point out that it doesn’t matter where you go in Mohave County, corruption is everywhere.

    I know the man. I watched him. I watched corruption in regards to the rights of women perpertrated by his staff right in front of my face, by just accidentally being in his office one day. It is certainly not a stretch.

    Also, if the “city attorney” is dropping criminal charges right and left on people, exactly who’s responsibility is that, just the JP? Is there no judicial remedy for out of control corrupt judges…or would you have to report that to the county attorney or something?

  205. I am about to start deleting posts because it is not proper to make accusations of wrongdoing against a county attorney who has nothing to do with these cases in Kalauli’s JP Court. Irrespective of what you think of Matt Smith or anyone else in Mohave County, he doesn’t have jurisdiction in the municipal court. It is the City Attorney who is hired by the City. The City Attorney is just like Kalauli, he is loyal to the FLDS.

    You can’t go around accusing folks of corruption and wrongdoing without facts and information. Matt Smith is not corrupt and he sure as hell isn’t doing the bidding of the FLDS. I will not have that kind of accusation on this board without specific information to back up the claim.

  206. Flds Texas,, I looked it up,, Colorado City doesn’t Have a City Attorney. They are in Mohave County, so the only one that can dismiss a case is the County Attorney, which is Matt Smith, he is Mohave County Attorney.

  207. Kululi handles Colorado City Municipal Court also.

  208. Boots, please — if you’re going to accuse government officials and their staff of corruption please be specific and detail the events that lead you to that conclusion.

  209. And Kululi also handles Moccasin County Court.

  210. DD – you’re wrong. It is not the county attorney. He has no jurisdiction, and there is a city attorney who is in private practice and contracted by the city. He practices with a firm in Arizona. I cannot recall his name at the moment but I will get it.

  211. Boots, I have to agree with FLDS Texas here. Matt Smith is not the one dismissing these charges. Bill Eskstrom might have (and probably DID) but Matt Smith isn’t.

  212. FLDS Texas there were 2 attorneys at the Berry Knoll hearing representing Hildale & Colorado City they were:

    Attorneys at Law

    Both are with Striba and Associates out of Salt Lake City but I don’t know if they represent the cities in cases like those DD has mentiond.

  213. A day in Matt Smith’s office.

    I arrived at Mr. Smith’s office in Kingman, AZ after having just left an interview in the mayor’s office.

    The waiting room looked more like a doctor’s waiting room than a law office. When you walked in there were chairs lines up against the walls of the small waiting area, and a counter to the left, where a receptionist sat behind a sliding glass panel. There was a door leading to the offices to the right of the receptionist booth.

    I had already checked in with the receptionist to let her know I was there and Mr. Smith was expecting me. I was bringing the cemetery documentation to him so he could examine it for himself. From where I sat, by the door leading to the outside, I could see into the receptionist’s booth and on into the office area, divided into cubicles, where staff were busy with their work day.

    As I sat waiting, a woman came flying through the door into the waiting room. She was attractive and neatly dressed, although it was immediately apparent that she was in great emotional distress. With tears streaming down her face she presented herself at the receptionist window and said, “Where is everyone? How could you do this AGAIN? What is it going to take, an AMBER Alert on my daughter? Does he have to kill me? This is supposed to be sentencing. He’s been convicted! How can you postpone a sentencing 3 times!”

    As I watched this very frantic scene, I noticed something incredibly odd. Every person in the office work area behind the receptionist’s window suddenly got up from their desks and simply disappeared [to the break room’? I dunno] I just know that I watched them flee like rats from a sinking ship and the whole work area cleared out. One guy, on his way past was making hand motions to the receptionist, pointing at her, like ‘you take care of it’. I was confused by their behavior because although she was obviously upset, she wasn’t armed or anything.

    Finally after every one of them had disappeared, the receptionist came out from her booth, through the door directly in front of me. There she attempted to calm the woman down. I sat there in complete stunned silence, literally with my mouth hanging open at the scene that unfolded before me. The receptionist said ‘Honey, I’ve already told you what you need to do now. You should take that little girl and move back to live with your parents in California. Then you’ll both feel safe.’

    The woman was stunned, ‘Move? I just bought a house here, my daughter is in school! The bastard has been convicted of assault and battery that put me in the hospital, and I’m the one who is supposed to move? You offer me no protection what-so-ever from this nut case and your answer is for ME TO MOVE OUT OF YOUR COUNTY, instead of just sending him to prison where he belongs?’

    At that point I could tell she was about to leave, so I dug out a business card [k.Dee Ignatin Staff Reporter- Murphy Broadcasting] and held it discreetly out, right in her path as she walked past me. She didn’t miss a beat and grabbed it on her way out the door.

    I sat there stewing on the whole scene for a few minutes. I had just watched the Mohave County Attorney’s Office send a receptionist out, to tell a victim, obviously not for the first time, that she should move out of their county if she wanted to feel safe from her abuser.

    A few minutes later I was invited back to see Mr. Smith. As we stood together at the machine chit chatting and making copies of the cemetery list I brought him, Matt picked up a page and started talking about how he didn’t really think this was very unusual but he would definitely be looking into it.

    I walked away with the queer feeling that Mr. Smith was not in fact looking at the list for the first time, and that there would be no investigation.

    This was later confirmed when I found out that he had indeed been given a copy of the list, the year before, when it was made. I wonder why he needed to pretend I was giving him completely new information that day. I wonder what made him feel like he needed to pretend this was all new, and that he would be taking some sort of investigative action.


    A year later, when I confronted him and Gary Engles, they both told me they had not as of yet investigated the cemetery, even though at that point, they had the information for over two years.

    A year later, Tom sheahan would construct the lie that the cemetery had been investigated by his department and there was nothing unusual there. He said that on a recorded interview and it is A LIE.

    If anyone can show me the official Mohave County investigation I’ll kiss yer ass in public and give you an hour to draw a crowd.

  214. FLDS Texas, I’ll tell you exactly what I told my news director when he refused to let me run the story about the woman who had the county send a receptionist into the room to recommend she move instead of waiting for justice: SWEAR ME IN. I’LL SING LIKE A BIRD. I SAW IT.

    And I saw Matt Smith LIE to me, too. SWEAR ME IN. I SAW IT.

    Good luck to the women of Shleicher County.

  215. LadySadie — it is neither of those guys. They are just atorneys representing the City’s interests in the UEP litigation. The City Attorney is the attorney the city hired to be their city prosecutor. Like I said, he is an Arizona attorney and practices with a firm there. He contracts separately with Colorado City to prosecute misdemeanors.

  216. Boots that’s an interesting story, but that does not indicate that Matt Smith or Gary Engels are corrupt. The story about the woman victim — there’s not enough information to know what the heck is going on.

    If you think Gary Engels is not keeping an eye on the FLDS or that he is not 100% committed to ending the crimes and abuses, you’re wrong. He is Matt Smith’s agent and employee, and Matt Smith is no friend of the FLDS. Their office may not investigate everything you want them to or in the way that you want them to but that doesn’t make them corrupt and it sure doesn’t mean they are turning a blind eye to the FLDS abuses and criminal activity. I would have liked to see the Texas AG seek more indictments from the raid because I know there is evidence of many more crimes — but I also know that there are limited resources and limited time and I know that the Texas prosecutors are totally committed to justice.

    I am pretty sure there are things going on with law enforcements and prosecutors involved in these investigations that is not made known to the public. There is a good reason for that

  217. “…there’s not enough information to know what the heck is going on.”

    That’s okay, I was there to see it all for myself, and then I interviewed her, when she called me. I got the picture just fine, with my own two eyes and ears. I may not have a law degree but I’ve got those.

    Gary Engles answers to Matt Smith. He told me that unless Matt Smith ordered him to investigate something he couldn’t. Obviously Matt didn’t tell him to investigate anything regarding the cemetery, because he doesn’t see it as important.

    BTW, I have never accused Gary Engles of being corrupt.

    They aren’t turning a blind eye to abuse? Are you joking?

    “.. it sure doesn’t mean they are turning a blind eye to the FLDS abuses and criminal activity”.

    Yes. Yes they are. Why is it that the only serious abuse charges they’ve had in the last 10 years had to be handed to them by an activist, with a mail oder H.S. Diploma, who did all their research for them?

    Yeah, it must be cause they’re all gung ho to prosecute crime up there.


  218. Boots that is enough. You are looking for enemies where you could find allies. There are things you don’t know, and I really think you are underinformed about all that has been done by the Mohave county attorney’s office to stop the abuses that you purport to care so much about.

    Matt Smith was the first to indict Warren Jeffs. He is the only one who put marshalls inside short creek to try to counter the corrupt local law enforcement. I think your dislike for Matt Smith and Mohave County are personal.

    You are free to express your opinion, but you’re not free to take shots at the administrators or this board. You are also not free to malign Matt Smith without solid factual information. Some of the admin here are personally acquainted with Matt Smith and with his involvement and contribution to bringing justice to FLDS. Your implication that Matt Smith doesn’t care or would dismiss charges or is somehow complicit in perpetuating abuses or allowing them to continue is unfounded.

    Failure to investigate the baby cemetery is not corruption– it’s a practical reality. How can it be investigated after the fact with limited resources and staff? You should understand that suspicious or questionable death statistics in a community does not amount to probable cause of anything. Law enforcement had to follow the law, and they have to make choices about where to allocate resources. It would be a dead end and a waste of resources to investigate the baby cemetery with no particular information about a wrongful death …only some numbers that are out of whack. You are outraged that, after taking the time to meet with you and listen to you, Matt Smith did not immediately convene a baby cemetery task force. He is not obligated to explain why it is not feasible to do that or to reveal that he had already made that determination a year prior when he was given the list.

    If you really want to get twisted about someone turning a blind eye or facilitating abuse, take a bite out of Shurtleff or Kalauli, but it is crazy to launch into the first guy who had the courage to indict Warren Jeffs …and it’s a tenuous charge, but he found a way and did it. And he’s going against the grain and fighting an uphill battle with Judges like Conn and a law enforcement in short creek that refuses to enforce or follow the law.

  219. I can only speak to city attorney’s in Texas, but what FLDS Texas says is true here. There are private attorneys who often work as the city attorney for smaller municipalities. I know a guy whose whole practice is representing multiple small municipalities.

    In Texas, city attorney’s only handle low level misdemeanors that are violations of city codes. Anything higher goes to county court and is prosecuted by the district attorney.

  220. I tried Googling for the article where Gary Engles said he didn’t think there was anything to the baby cemetery, but no luck.

    I was looking for that article because it seems that I remember the context of the statement being that Engles had looked into it (meaning he did some investigation) and didn’t think there was anything there.

  221. Ron, it was Tom Sheahan, the Mohave County Sheriff who said that, not Gary Engles.

    I have the TV interview where he said it saved to a Realplayer download on my computer. I don’t have a DVD burner, so I have no way to make a copy, but I do have it.

    FLDS Texas,

    I lived there for almost 4 years and saw with my own eyes what is going on up there in Mohave County.

    “You are outraged that, after taking the time to meet with you and listen to you, Matt Smith did not immediately convene a baby cemetery task force. He is not obligated to explain why it is not feasible to do that or to reveal that he had already made that determination a year prior when he was given the list.”

    No, I’m outraged that he lied right to my face. I’m outraged that when a defendant was facing up to 200 years in prison for the molestation of 5 of his daughters, Matt Smith walked in and handed him a plea agreement for 13 days in the county jail for the crimes.

    “Your implication that Matt Smith doesn’t care or would dismiss charges or is somehow complicit in perpetuating abuses or allowing them to continue is unfounded”.

    No it isn’t.
    The defendant’s own lawyer later approached Flora, crying, to apologize to her saying, ‘I had to tell him to take it, because that’s my job as his lawyer but I am so sorry’.

    Flora told Matt, ‘Y’know Matt I just want you to know that if your daughters are ever molested I’ll be there to protect them and speak out for them, because we know their daddy won’t”.

    Ron, scroll back, as soon as FLDSTX told me that it was not Matt Smith responsible, I accepted the info and stood corrected.

    Obviously there are lawyers here in Texas who are depending on Matt Smith to help with their cases. Good luck with that.

    “Failure to investigate the baby cemetery is not corruption”

    Lying by a politician is not corruption? Oh that’s right we figured that out way back when Nixon did it.

    “I am pretty sure there are things going on with law enforcements and prosecutors involved in these investigations that is not made known to the public.”

    I am pretty sure there are things going on in Mohave County you Texas lawyers don’t have a clue about.

  222. Smith said he had rarely received a sexual abuse case from Hildale, though he knew they occurred and were handled by the church.

    “I have told them that they can’t handle these problems ecclesiastically, but if someone doesn’t report the crime there isn’t much I can do,” he said.

    “I can’t go snooping around out there; the public doesn’t want us doing that,” he continued. “People want to save all these girls, but the truth is a lot of these girls don’t want to be saved.”
    ~Matt Smith Mohave County Attorney

  223. You think Matt Smith is corrupt, you can think as you wish. Others who know him and have worked directly with him for years say oherwise.

    I don’t think any Texas attorneys are counting on Matt Smith for anything. But he has done a lot to bring justice to FLDS, and that’s a fact.

    Anything further you care to say in opposition to Matt Smith can be said elsewhere.

    That is the end of that discussion.

  224. There are several admins of this blog with different levels and aspects of involvement with the FLDS, all wanting as much factual information regarding the activities of the FLDS to be available to the public, none are lawyers.

    Through the collorabative efforts of the different admins of this site, relationships have been sought and developed with many of the primary “actors” in the FLDS saga and much research has been done by different admins of this site to enable us access to as much information as legally possible. What we as admins of this site do not want are unfounded and non-verified accusations being thrown around.

  225. “What we as admins of this site do not want are unfounded and non-verified accusations being thrown around”.

    So what I hear you saying is that my own personal experience of having been lied to is unfounded and non-verified.

    And even if I was lied to, your year old relationship with Mr. Smith has given you everything you ever need or want to know about the situation with law enforcement and elected officials in Mohave County. And if I say anything, even with facts to back it up I am somehow taking it “personally” and have no standing. Ummm…okay.

    Forgive me for assuming this site was run by lawyers. You’re right, I have no proof of that. It was an assumption on my part because although access to these documents is public record the costs can ad up fast. I am willing to admit when I have jumped to a conclusion.

    Regardless, someone here has obviously built a relationship with Matt Smith and trusts him implicitly. I think, based on my own personal experience, that is a mistake.

    It was okay not to spend the time or resources to investigate the cemetery. What was not okay was to lie to me about it.

    If you would like to call me a liar for telling the truth here, go for it.

    You questioned my assertion that Mr. Smith was soft on the FLDS, so I tried to give you information about why, including a LA Times piece, and I’m told my input is not welcome. Excuse me for thinking someone has an agenda here, which is probably to preserve a relationship with Mr. Smith they might think is useful to them in some way.

    Seems a lot more personal on the other end to me.

    But like I said before, I won’t express anything here again, whether from my personal experience or just simple facts. Obviously when it comes to Mr. Smith those aren’t welcome here.

    My own personal experiences are unfounded and non-verified.

    Got it.

  226. You are not told your input is unwelcome. But no one is required to change their view or condemn Matt Smith or Mojave County based on your anecdotal accounts, and you get offended that we are not all just willing to throw Matt under the bus because you have spoken.

    I am sure there are inefficiencies in Mohave County. I’m sure there are some staff who are lazy or burned out and they all probably have bad days now and then. Speaking for myself I do not agree with every decision or strategy of Matt Smith, but in the balance I can say unequivocally that he is not an FLDS apologist or friend, and he has accomplished a lot and continues to.

    Again you have made assumptions that any relationship or experience if Matt Smith is only a year old, and you would again be incorrect. This conversation began with your strident condemnation of Matt Smith for dismissing cases in Kalauli’s court. You were willing to hang it on the wrong guy without knowing or having the information. Then you steamroll on with accusations, and the appearance is you want to smear this guy even if the facts don’t support it. We all have opinions and they will diverge, but it is offensive and counter to the purpose if this board to make sweeping allegations of corruption without factual information. That is the very reason comments were not allowed when the board started. Documents speak for themselves — interpretation may vary, and that is left up to each individual, but facts are facts.

    You are welcome to your opinion. You are welcome, of course, to interpret your experiences in whatever way suits you. You are welcome to express your opinion too, but you cross the line when you expect anyone to adopt your opinion based on the information you have provided, and you are not entitled to be rude and condescending to the admin here for supporting someone you oppose. And we would all appreciate if you would stop making assumptions and stating them as facts. Thank you.

  227. You know Boots, as someone who has no dog in this fight, I think you do tend to go a little overboard into conspiracy theories. It also seems to me that much of the bust up of Warrens reign of terror was as a result of Matt Smith deciding to hire himself a special investigator and putting him as close to right in the middle of their midst as possible.

    I don’t know much about Mohave County politics, but I do know that if you’re in somebody’s pocket you’re not going to sic a special investigator on them.

  228. Ron,
    ” I think you do tend to go a little overboard into conspiracy theories”. Examples please?

    “I don’t know much about Mohave County politics”

    “but I do know that if you’re in somebody’s pocket you’re not going to sic a special investigator on them”

    Then I suggest you do some research and find out exactly why he finally hired the investigator. Hint: It wasn’t because he saw an injustice and jumped up to do anything about it on his own. It was the direct result of a combination of a huge amount of public attention finally brought to bear on the issue, resulting from the relentless pressure Supervisor Buster Johnson put on them all once he was elected in 1997.

    Why don’t you contact Supervisor Johnson’s office in Lake Havasu City, Arizona and ask him about his experience dealing with the good ol boys in Mohave County for the last decade.

    Something tells me you won’t, though, because your minds are obviously already made up and you know it all.

  229. Examples please?

    1. Jeffs with computer and cell phone in jail cell
    2. Baby cemetery
    3. “go in Mohave County, corruption is everywhere”
    4. “We have every reason to believe that representatives from the Federal government personally threatened employees of Texas CPS, Shelter Workers, and Hot line personnel.”

    I’ll be happy to email Buster Johnson. I’m a pragmatist. I know that money corrupts and that the FLDS had a lot of it. I also think they seem to skate by quite often. I not saying that anything you say is untrue. It’s just that for me it seems fairly improbable.

  230. First of All, Im sorry I made an assumption about Matt Smith. I don’t know him, I was just checking to see if Colorado City had a city attorney, and couldn’t find one. Then Ron said it is most likely the county attorney.
    Look, I don’t know who disposed the cases I posted. It just said CTY attorney.
    Im sorry I jumped to a conclusion…… Boots,, you are jumping to a conclusion to. I have NO evidence it was Matt Smith, and you don’t either…

  231. Ron,

    1. It was not a cell phone but a desk phone, and one of the eye witnesses said it made no sense to them that Jeffs was on a “suicide watch” yet had the phone with a very long cord, as well as a blanket in the cell. Most “suicide watches” don’t allow blankets, which could be torn into a hanging instrument.
    2. It is not just the baby cemetery. Call me crazy but when the little tin markers have “repeats” I tend to wonder how the same child got buried twice. I have never called for a murder investigation, or exuming anything in the cemeteries. I have questioned the practice of giving the Colorado City administration stacks of pre-signed death certificates, for years. I have questioned how so many children have been run over and yet no children in Colorado City have ever been removed for neglect, and I would certainly think unattended toddlers roaming the streets to be neglect. Flora even has a photo of two unattended toddlers in the street of Colorado City, with a big truck coming down the road towards them. I’ll see if she will send it to me and will be glad to post it.
    3. So shooting the messenger is obviously the answer here.
    4. True story. I have the names of the two FBI agents who told them to ‘shut up and quit talking to the Rangers’.

    ” It’s just that for me it seems fairly improbable”.

    I know the feeling. I spent my first year up there thinking the whole thing must be a bad acid flashback, then I remembered I’ve never tried acid or anything else that makes you remotely delusional.

  232. For me the much bigger problem is WHY CPS dropped all those cases like they were hot potatoes!!! Why Charles Childress was met with a brick wall on continuing the road he was on. My main problem is the “children”!

  233. I will post this for the 3rd time, since everyone seems to be missing it.

    I was wrong about Matt Smith being responsible for dropping the cases in Moccasin.

    I was wrong about Matt Smith being responsible for dropping the cases in Moccasin.

    I was wrong about Matt Smith being responsible for dropping the cases in Moccasin.

    I said so the first time FLDS TX corrected me, and have not made the allegation or the incorrect assumption again.

    But if everyone wants to keep accusing me of repeatedly making it, free world.

  234. Boots this site is NOT run by lawyers, its run by some excellant intelligent folks who know where to look for documentations, verifiable proof of what is posted here. It’s a bunch of folks who abhore child abuses in any form, including parental abuse, institutional abuse, family or relative abuse and religious abuses done to children in the name of a god.
    Trust me the people behind the scenes here, know what they are talking about, and have a network of people who are helping get the information public!

  235. Actually it was ME, that popped that off the top of my head about Matt Smith. I shouldn’t have done that without further investigation.

  236. Honey, I don’t care who is running it. It is a GREAT site, and an invaluable resource for those who want to see the legal documentation of these cases.

    But to assume that everything that has ever happened in Mohave County is available by obtaining court documentation is ridiculous.

  237. It’s 5 O’Clock somewhere. I’ll stir up a big big BIG ol pitcher of margaritas if somebody will whack the limones and salt up the glass rims.

  238. DD, we both did, and I hope I have apologized to everyones satisfaction.

    I still want to know exactly who you report questionable practices of a JP to up there.

    Is it the district attorney, county attorney, the state supreme court, the Justice Deparment? Who is this guy’s boss? Who is he responsible to?

  239. Oh GrannyToad, I love you! I will be glad to whack and salt!

  240. I don’t have a dog in this fight, either. Or perhaps I have two, since I like both k.Dee and FLDS Texas.

    Boots, in my experience, a few interactions don’t tell you much about an official’s character; they merely tell you how polished his manners are. The ability to make someone feel important is a political skill that has little to do with integrity. I have been charmed by people with lovely manners and no integrity; I have written off people with great integrity and no manners. So I no longer listen to my first, second or third impressions when working with public officials.

    We all see how Wee Willie has an enormous chip on his shoulder which colors his every interaction with the Trust administrators. It’s a lot harder to see when we have chips on our own shoulders.

    I’m as guilty of this as the next person. My kids’ school district had a problem administrator. His terrible management soured teachers and kids alike. I ended up acting like a deranged bear to protect my kids (he was eventually fired, but not soon enough). In the aftermath, I had a huge chip on my shoulder and every person who came in contact with me felt it.

    Eventually, I realized that I needed to forgive and forget. After that, I was able to see that many of the people I so disliked and who disliked me were well-meaning people who had also been injured. They were as defensive as I was. Our relationship today is amicable, thank God.

  241. Boots, I’m sorry. I posted that before refreshing the page and didn’t see your mea culpa.

  242. No problem, sugar. Some days you are the bug and some days you are the wind shield.

    I’m obviously in the bug category today;)

    I wish I was with GrannyToad and her pitcher of Margaritas. Matter o’fact I may just have to head on over to Love and War in Texas for one of those, and some good live Texas music tonight.

  243. I’m looking for my cousin Jennie’s girls over that way, they’ve gone missing, can’t find ’em, Lisha and Charmin.

  244. Where, at Love and War in Texas? Which one, sugar, Plano or Grapevine…geesh I can’t even believe Grapevine has anything in it. That’s where I went to summer camp as kid, lol.

  245. You mean you never been to Grapevine Mills Boots??? ITS Awesome,, its HUGE, and has every store and resturant you would ever want to eat at.

  246. Plano last I knew. Could be back over around Hamilton or Comanche County. O well.

  247. Well then, after I’ve had my Margarita I will ask everyone if they’ve seen or squeezed any Charmin;)

  248. Boots, I think the problem is so large, no one can be sure who to blame! But I do kinda think Kaluli is a paid offical,, paid off offical!!

  249. I recently found out that we have a “3 strikes” rule, signed into effect April of 2006, I have yet to hear of it being applied to anyone here……wonder why.

    Crimes that trigger the three-strikes rule include murder, drive-by shooting, kidnapping, sexual assault, child molestation, first-degree burglary of an occupied home, arson of an occupied structure, armed robbery, terrorism and child prostitution.

    To be subject to the three-strikes rule in Arizona, offenders must be convicted of committing, attempting or conspiring to commit three violent or aggravated felonies on separate occasions. And the law is also applicable to people who have been convicted of similar violent offenses in other states.

    “Arizona’s three-strikes law was created to go after the worst of the worst,” County Attorney Andrew Thomas said Wednesday in a prepared statement. “We hope to use this new statute to lock up these violent career criminals once and for all.”.

  250. “But I do kinda think Kaluli is a paid offical,, paid off offical!!”

    Okay, so again, who does he report directly to? Who is reponsible for his job performance?

    Maybe no one? Maybe he is King Kaluli?

  251. Well he is basically a JP boots, he is elected offical. Im not sure he is responsible to anyone. That’s the problem!

  252. In February 2006, the Utah Supreme Court decided to remove Hildale Justice Court Judge Walter Steed from the bench stating that Steed, who by his own admission had three wives and fathered 32 children, was “flaunting the prohibitions of the bigamy statute.”

  253. Everyone is responsible to someone. I find it really hard to swallow that there is absolutely no state or county oversight whatsoever of an elected judge, even in Mohave County.

    If there weren’t judges could do anything they wanted, even unconstitutional stuff. That doesn’t make sense.

    I know if I had a complaint to file against a Mohave County Supervisor [which is an elected position] it would go straight to the Mohave County Attorney.

    I know this because false charges of sexual harassment were contrived against Mr. Johnson at one point, and that’s who dealt with the complaint. After spending thousands of dollars of his own money to defend himself, all charges were dropped.

    And next to having his vehicle firebombed in the driveway of his home, that was pretty much the worst that was thrown at him for trying to bring attention to the abuses and corruption in Colorado City.

  254. The Utah Judicial Conduct Commission’s recommendation to remove from office a Hildale justice court judge who practices plural marriage will be reviewed by the Utah Supreme Court Nov. 2 at the BYU J. Reuben Clark Law School.

  255. In February 2006, the Utah Supreme Court decided to remove Hildale Justice Court Judge Walter Steed from the bench stating that Steed, who by his own admission had three wives and fathered 32 children, was “flaunting the prohibitions of the bigamy statute.”

    Judicial Conduct Commission. There ya go, Arizona must have one of those, too, right?

  256. Arizona Commission on Judicial Conduct

  257. So Ron, do concerned Arizonians need to start writing the Arizona Commission on Judicial Conduct about the Kaluha’s consistent dismissal of charges for FLDS? I wonder, does this judge do the same for any Centennial Park people with tickets? Surely there is a way to check that sort of thing.

  258. Well, you’d have to have more than a concern about dismissal of charges against FLDS members in order to get the Commission on Judicial Conduct to act. You can’t sanction a judge for being either pro-defense or pro-prosecution.

    Unless you have specific evidence of wrongdoing it would be a political problem.

  259. Suzan Mazur: What about the Washington County prosecuting attorney’s role in covering up?

    Bob Curran: That was one of the first things that got me involved in this. Just trying to understand how the abuses could go on. It turns out that the prosecuting attorney, Eric Ludlow, in his 13 years in office prosecuted 28,000 cases by his own admission. But not a single case in a polygamous situation. They would never do anything to upset that. It’s just a ridiculous case of selective enforcement.

    And Ludlow said, well the sheriff never brought me any cases. And the sheriff, Kirk Smith, said, well I’m just simply not going to go after the polygamists. I have more important things to do. So consequently, they are their own foreign country out there within the US. They have their own laws, their own systems.

    Suzan Mazur: I believe you said Ludlow was then recommended by then-Governor Mike Leavitt to a higher spot in the court system.

    Bob Curran: There was a vacancy in the Fifth District Court here in Washington County and Governor Leavitt. . .

    Suzan Mazur: That’s Mike Leavitt, currently Health and Human Services Secretary in the Bush Administration.

    Bob Curran: Governor Mike Leavitt nominated or chose Ludlow to fill that vacant 5th District Court spot. And I went up to the capital and pointed out how can this be? To elevate somebody to a position of real power where he’s going to be making a decision on people’s lives and he’s still going to be practicing selective enforcement from the bench?

    And at that time AG Mark Shurtleff testified on Ludlow’s behalf.

    Suzan Mazur: Is that right?

    Bob Curran: He went before the committee and counteracted everything that I was saying and voiced his support. And the Utah Senate voted 30-0 to ratify or accept or nominate Mr. Ludlow to the 5th Court where he sits right now. That was about three years ago.

  260. SALT LAKE CITY — Members of the Senate Judiciary Confirmation Committee upheld their original motion to support Washington County Attorney Eric Ludlow’s appointment as judge for the 5th District Court. The committee asked Ludlow additional questions Wednesday to clarify some confusion regarding the issue of polygamy, which had been brought up in the previous committee hearing April 9. People opposed to Ludlow’s nomination accused him of turning a blind eye to polygamy and ignoring cases that had come across his desk alleging abuse of young women. “As a father of four daughters and a prosecutor, that is a horrible charge,” Ludlow said. When directly questioned about polygamy issues, Ludlow said that never, to his knowledge, had a case come into his office that was not acted upon. Ludlow mainly referred to the case against Rodney Holm, a Hildale-area police officer charged with two counts of unlawful sexual conduct with a 16- or 17-year-old and one count of bigamy — charges related to his relationship with Holm’s third wife, Ruth Stubbs. Ludlow said that case was being handled by the Utah Attorney General’s Office — not because his office was turning a blind eye, but because there were conflicts of interest in having Washington County prosecute the case. Other than that case, Ludlow said he knew of no case presented to his office. During the hearing, Bob Curran of Help the Child Brides said that Ludlow either had to have known about abuses in polygamist marriages and done nothing, or he didn’t know, making him a “terribly inept choice.”

  261. Wow!! The story Boots described about the young lady coming into an office and asking for something to be done about the domestic violence situation is sadly a scene that is played out in many areas of the country.

    Although there has been some great strides taken with the laws concerning Domestic Violence there still is a big room for improvements. One of them is to have only certain Judges hearing the cases as opposed to every Judge hearing one here, one there. Often times the “offender” has been before different Judges and they do the song and dance show in front of the Judge and he believes the offender has” changed” and is “working hard” at trying to change his/her life. Instead of a bailiff they should have someone standing with a shovel to clean up all the BS.

    Should a person have to leave their own home? No. Should a person have to leave the town in which they live? No. Should a person have to change jobs, telephone numbers, watch how they order deliveries being made to their homes? No. But if that is what it takes to protect themselves until the paper trail catches up then yes.

    The Domestic Violence Shelter should be aware of all the new laws taking place and they should be working WITH the states attorney’s office on handling such cases. If they are not. Please let me know.

  262. Ron is this the article you were thinking about? I am almost positive that there was another story that talked about the investigation a little bit more than this.

    ARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When a member of Warren Jeffs’ fundamentalist church dies, odds are, he or she will be buried in one of two cemeteries in Colorado City, Arizona, and the neighboring town of Hilldale, Utah.

    Jeffs’ father, Rulon, who was the prophet before his son, is laid to rest here. So is the prophet before him, Leroy Johnson. But what many visitors to the cemetery notice first…

    FLORA JESSOP, FORMER POLYGAMIST: The kids die off in numbers that are far greater than any other community.

    TUCHMAN: … is something that this woman, who says she escaped from the church talks about.

    JESSOP: Jessop girl, stillborn. Jessop boy, stillborn. Jessop boy, stillborn.

    TUCHMAN: If you tour the cemeteries it’s impossible not to notice the high number of children’s graves in towns with only several thousand people.

    This baby boy was only 5 months old; this baby girl 10 months. This baby died the day she was born. This little boy died at the age of 2.

    Authorities not connected to the church say there is no evidence there are criminal reasons for this.

    GARY ENGELS, INVESTIGATOR, MOHAVE COUNTY: I checked what I could check as far as, you know, people I talked to about it and nobody that I know thinks there’s anything, you know, suspicious here about the deaths.

    Sometimes it isn’t what a person says that tells the story but what a person doesn’t say. Gary Engles did NOT say that the investigation was over nor did he say that he didn’t find it suspicious. He said “the people he talked to didn’t find it suspicious.”

    I think Gary Engles is one that can be trusted. I also think Buster Johnson is someone that can be trusted.

    I don’t trust Shurtleff at all and I think there are others behind Shurtleff. I don’t trust Rod Parker. And I have doubts about these Knudson boys.

    I use to wonder who owned this site but now I don’t care who runs it as long as BillM has nothing to do with it.

    The amount of info here is outstanding and I must say the same about the posters.

    I am a very lucky person.

  263. Thanks Walton – I knew it was somewhere.

    This means that there was an investigation (people can quibble over whether it was sufficient.)

    I’m like you Walton, I trust Engles and think he’s a very straight shooter.

  264. The amount of info here is outstanding and I must say the same about the posters.

    I am a very lucky person.

    Amen to that Walton. And substantial kudos to everybody behind FLDS Texas. It’s nice having the facts right at hand.

  265. The amount of info here is outstanding and I must say the same about the posters.

    I am a very lucky person.”

    I like it too!

  266. So. When do the criminal trials begin? Who’s on first?

  267. I worked for a firm that had hired a new “management team” and they had said that I probably wouldn’t see much of them. I told them if they were a good “management team” I wouldn’t need to see them but I would see their management skills filter thru the firm.

    We might not be seeing Gary Engles name in the news. But I’ve seen his work filtering on down.

    I’ve never met the man. I’ve never talked to the man. But I have to hand it to him. If he says he is going to do something. I believe he will.

  268. I would like to know how much prenatal care Flds women get when they are pregnant?

  269. DD – they take vitamins. Does prayer count as prenatal care? If so they get plenty of prenatal care.

  270. The problem with cemetery data as a whole is that it cannot be correlated with births in the same community. As Betty brilliantly proved elsewhere, the vast majority of people leave Short Creek after childhood. That skews local deaths to infants and grannies.

    The only information I could find concerning the number of dead buried in Short Creek comes from the “Interested Parties” objection to the proposed settlement, which says there are 320 occupied graves in the Carling cemetery and 182 occupied graves in the Hildale infant cemetery. That being very sparse for a community of that size and age, I have to believe that some people—perhaps even a lot of people—are buried in home plots.

    To me, vital records are the key. If every birth and death is recorded, there can be no question about neonatal mortality rates. Not filing vital records has to have significant, deterrent penalties. Concentrate efforts on that.

    BTW, I don’t know where the majority of women in Short Creek have their babies, but a preponderance of home births (even with certified nurse-midwifes in attendance) would increase the neonatal mortality rate:

  271. Good find Walton. You people amaze me sometimes. And thanks to all y’all for your kind words about the site and the posters. Be assured BillM has nothing to do with this site.

    A word about Engels and Smith and a point Walton brought up: as civilians we have this notion that every crime that is brought to the attention of law enforcement will be prosecuted and result in a conviction. We see the information on the baby cemetery and the numbers look suspicious — we draw conclusions and wonder how this can be allowed to continue. We see Matt Smith make comments that his hands are tied to prosecute sexual assaults of underage girls and we think he does not care enough or he is not aggressive enough because everyone knows it is happening. We see what looks like impropriety in the judiciary and municipal government in Colorado City and can’t imagine why someone doesn’t go in and clean it up.

    These things offend our sensibilities and we want the problems solved. However, we aren’t thinking in terms of what is required to solve the problems and what it is that really triggers law enforcement action or discipline against government officials or judges. This particular group of criminals is very skilled at keeping the community and crimes insulated. They know how to keep government and law enforcement out. While they operate outside the law, the “good guys” still have to play by the rules. That is a huge disadvantage.

    Take the baby cemetery for instance. If there were any wrongful deaths that resulted from criminal acts, the only people who have that information are the people within the community. They aren’t talking, they aren’t reporting and they aren’t cooperating. How do you investigate when you have no access to information and no prospect for getting the information.? It’s a dead end before it gets started. That is not law enfircement’s fault or prosecutors and it doesn’t signal a lack of concern. There is simply no way for law enforcement to infiltrate the community and get information that would lead to probable cause. You have an entire city acting in concert to protect each other.

    Same goes for child sexual abuse. A suspicion is no enough for law enforcement to get involved. They have to have a real report, and the crimes are not being reported. The victims for the most part don’t think if themselves as victims, and the consequences of reporting crimes within the community are so severe. Law enforcement cannot just go into a town and start seizing evidence or peeking in windows looking for a clue to fall out of thin air. Installing Gary Engels in the community is about as far as they can go. How many FLDS report anything to Gary? None. Smith has county Marshalls policing the police so that the law is enforced. But then the case ends up in front of Kalauli and a City Attorney, both of whom are beholden to the FLDS — charges dismissed. There’s something called prosecutorial discretion and the Judge has discretion in the disposition of the case. It’s difficult to make a complaint unless there’s an act that violates a judicial code of conduct.

    None of this is to say that anyone should throw their hands up and give up, but just think about the roadblocks that are faced I trying to bring this community to justice.

  272. Bravo, bravo, bravo, FLDS Texas! My cop brother has often lamented the exact same things.

    I suppose this means that nobody will ever be punished for running down Isaac Wyler’s stallion and leaving it to suffer with a broken back. That really bugs me.

  273. FLDS Texas, your last post really explains the practical realities in this situation. Our country lately has sought for quick fix solutions to problems. Quick fix is often an illusion. Rather than a race it’s more like a marathon. This whole problematic situation has been going on for decades. Despite how much we want it to be fixed immediately, that’s just not going to happen.

  274. But I still want to figure out who injured that horse and run a red-hot branding iron up his…

  275. I recently had some renter’s move out of a house. They have 4 children, 3 little boys, ages 4,3,2 yrs old and a new baby girl 5months old. They lived in the house for 2yrs. They never paid their rent on time, but since the husband was the only one working we were patient with them.
    The house sits on a HUGE lot, and we have two other rentals on the same lot. The other two renters, both single in each house, would tell my husband and I when we went to check on plumbing etc, that the woman would constantly SCREAM at the children, and felt she was locking them in a room in the house for hours at a time, becuase they would hear constant crying and screaming.
    Well, we really didn’t know what to think?
    But this last week, when we went to clean the house and get it ready to re rent, it was FILTHY! Horrendously so!! And on Two bedroom doors , they had locks up high enough a child couldn’t reach it.
    We have NO idea where they moved? But, this has been haunting me for over a week! I have NO evidence the woman did this, I never heard it, or saw anything. Only my other two renters were concerned.
    Okay, Flash Forward say 6 months,,, What if one of those children ends up dead??? I could never forgive myself for been more tentative to what the neighbors heard!!
    Yet, children suffer these abuses everyday. Ive seen them, and should of paid more attention to the signs!

    This has just made me personally more aware, and apt to check if something like it happens again.

  276. My heart went out to Richard Ream, I believe every word he said. I do believe they kicked out boys, without a place to go, an education, or any money to even buy food. It’s a damn shame in this country , these such actions are allowed to happen.

  277. I think Judge Lindberg is doing a fine job!!

  278. deputydog1 I agree. Judge Lindberg has been fair as well as Judge Shumate.

    However imo I think Judge Steve F. Conn should hang up his robe and serve 5 years of community service working with Domestic Violence Victims.

  279. I do believe they kicked out boys, without a place to go, an education, or any money to even buy food. It’s a damn shame in this country, these such actions are allowed to happen.

    deputydog1 said this on August 9, 2009 at 9:23 PM

    Yes deputy, they really do these things. I know this first hand. They make life so restrictive and miserable for some of the young boys that it finally drives them off. They leave by “choice”, but it is really hard for them to go and leave their family. However, too many times they just tell other boys to leave their family and it was not their “choice” to go. They are simply kicked to the curb.

    It’s not right and the children really suffer because they don’t have anywhere safe to go – so they head to one of the butt huts and they often get into a lot of trouble just trying to cope in the outside world.

    These kids really suffer because they aren’t prepared for the outside world with all of its temptations and no adult supervision. And they haven’t been taught how to make good decisions because they didn’t get the chance in the sect – they just followed orders.

    Its a real problem!

  280. Yeah Walton, I’ve got to agree with you about Judge Conn. He is a poor excuse for a judge – his record proves this!

  281. responding to the comments last friday.

    Bet you cant guess the name of my gnome mage 😛
    And gfny thats not a photo of me…….thats a photo of my imaginary friend that makes me do and say crazy things 😛
    And DD i know yall just use me for my sense of humor……its ok.

  282. Ummm, Gmystic? Gnarly? Rumplestilskin?

    My gnome magette is named Mystrile.

  283. Plygkid, I love your sense of humor, but I would never use you for anything other than a friend. Believe it or not, your very likable, and very intelligent!

  284. His gnome mage is named “Filmetta.”

  285. my gnome is named…………..drumroll. Plygkid

  286. NOooooooo! Not a gnome named Plygkid!!! C’mon, PK, this is about excersing the imagination!!! I’m sooo disappointed. sniff, sniff

  287. I reserve my imagination when helping friends name thier toons.

    I have come up with some very good names.

    My personal favorite….. Urmomsahorde

  288. hehe, that’s a good one!

    Sometimes I AM a Horde too. 😉

  289. 😮 your one of the bad guys…………must klll horde lol

  290. Sorry to not be off topic but i care less about the flds thing by the day lol.

  291. err i mean sorry to be off topic……my english sucks…dont have to tell me….i was there

  292. Pligkid

    “Sorry to * be off topic but i (couldn’t) care less about the flds thing by the day lol.”

    Well, that makes sense, but if you were female, living in the creek, and 13, you might worry about it all night long….?

  293. Pligkid,

    LOL, arent you the lucky one? There are 10,000 crickers whom wonder if Willie can pull a miracle.

    Warren did once, but it backfired badly.

    Oh well, say, I wonder if they have WoW in Kingman?

  294. Brooke has put up a piece on her blog which gives a chronology of sales (several million) of consecrated land (Apple Valley) was to be used to pay ~$350 k for school (since they pulled out of public) and the remainder to be used for “other projects” which WJ’s dictations say were approved by a bunch of mucky mucks. From this Brooke concludes that most beneficiaries would have agreed with sale. Ergo it is different than what Wisan is doing today.

    Seems a bit convoluted rationale to me. What happens to the other 3.5K – the “other” was YFZ and not that many knew that it was being built, not that they were going to lose their consecrated land for something they were not going to be invited to.

    I think she is reaching

  295. It’s really stupid logic, HHG, since nobody asked them. If we could just surmise what people thought, we wouldn’t need elections, wouldn’t we?

    We had two presidential elections in a row where pundits told us who we were going to vote for but we were contrary and voted otherwise.

    “I think most Americans would have voted for me to be dictator, had they been asked.”

  296. The reality of the UEPTrust is even with the board voting who is going to vote contrary to the Prophet as Trustee. Let’s see the FLDS Church now practices ‘One Man Rule’, the tenet is that the Prophet owns every board member, how would you vote if Warren goes first and says,”Yes/No”? You could always vote contrary to the Prophet and hit the Warrenite Trifecta be apostated, evicted and kick off of the Trust Board all in one day!

  297. CAJim, posters like DeputyDog have drawn a pretty clear link between the Trust being taken away from Whorin’ Warren and the onset of financial trouble for the FLDS ‘nobility’. The rank-and-file were pouring money into it while the cadres were draining it off, and now that they can’t get their fingers into the honey-pot, they’re in financial trouble.

    As long as you were part of the siphoning classes, why would you object?

  298. Here is a little info on the school.

  299. I’d’a figured the gnome’s name was Gristle. Maybe that’s his baby’s name.

  300. Suzan Mazur: The atrocities have been going on for a hundred years on the Utah-Arizona border. There’s a lot to account for.

    Buster Johnson: And because of these incestuous relationships, producing deformities and that sort of thing, the lifestyle of raping young daughters, raping young boys, brutalizing women and the brutalizing of women among women – I think that these people basically are so hard core that they cannot be allowed back into normal society. They need to be allowed to die out completely.

    You can’t just say, “Okay we’re going to take this family and place them in LA or somewhere.” First of all it’s not fair to the family itself. Nor is it fair to the community. They need to go somewhere where you can deprogram them and show them another life. And it’s going to be just as hard as kicking the drug habit or any other addiction.

    Suzan Mazur: What would you like to see happen down there in Colorado City to resolve the situation?

    Buster Johnson: Law enforcement should go to every house and say: “Okay – everybody outside the house. Mothers stand with children. Okay, you’re the mother and this is your child.” And then you get the birth certificates. “You’re 36 and this child is 24, so obviously you were 12 – an underage marriage. It looks like you were 15, etc. Somebody did this.”

    And that way you can show rape’s been going on and is continuing. Along with polygamy. You can show it’s very incestuous.

    Suzan Mazur: You’re talking about local law enforcement doing this. And if local law enforcement doesn’t do it, then the FBI should go in.

    Buster Johnson: Good law enforcement could put an end to this. But I think once they do that, then you have to take the families. You can bring in psychiatrists and try to save as many as you can. The ones you can’t save, stay there until they die

    Bottom line is, as a result of inbreeding, these people are unfit and not worthy of basic human dignity that we as a free nation afford to those of different races and cultures. There is no question that raping, murdering, child molestion, theft, financial fraud, tax evasion, welfare fraud, abortions, and parasitism is completetly ingrained in their culture. As Buster Johnson notes, the only way we can humanely eliminate this scourge upon our Nation is to keep them from breeding and allow the hard core Mormon fundamentalists to just die out and go extinct.
    It may not be easy for some people, but it is the only solution to this terrible plague that would be final.

  301. PK, I understand you were raised in this depraved sect and found a way to escape your terrible life and find the courage to heal.
    You are a true survivor and may God bless you. True heroes such as yourself are hard to come by.

  302. Anon 1:47 / 2:03

    …or should I call you Donut Willie? Because the crap you just spewed reeks of the persecution complex that Fat-Boy-Willie revels in.

    This website provides factual documents about the criminal activities of a group of people who operate under the name of FLDS. Your lame attempt at *spining religious persecution and extermination* will fool absolutely NO ONE here.

    buzz off.

  303. Deputy Dog there is a way for you to get the current address of thse your former renters IF they put in a forwarding with the post office. Send them mail with this written on the envo front: “Address correction requested”, I think that’s what the PO still uses, call & ask. I think you’d have to pay again, return postage.

    Report this as abuse. If you took any pictures of the mess you cleaned up that WAS evidence. The high up locks, the neighbors’ statements about the screaming, is evidence.

  304. GFNY my post on reviving the UEPTrust and thinking the FLDS Church, under ‘One Man Rule’, will only return to a board that votes only as the church leader/prophet directs them. Just a rank charade and return to an abusive trust situation, with the Court having to involve itself again sometime in the future.

    GFNY the tithing is still going to the FLDS Church from Short Creek, so your comment about the ‘honey pot’ is confusing to me. Bishop Lyle Jeffs is in charge at Short Creek and the 650+ resident families are paying their Priesthood tithes or being ‘handled’, there’s still plenty of honey flowing although it may not be enough to feed all the bears.

  305. I was sort of amazed at Buster Johnson’s comments that anon @ 1:47 posted, but here’s the link to the story online.

    The quoted portion is near the end of the interview.

  306. Went to the link – the whole transcript is there but the tenor of the whole article is bit hysterical isn’t it or am I just blase?

  307. Well, hysterical does tend to sell papers.

  308. lol flds just because i was mail didnt mean i stood to lose any less then any woman in that place. The reason everyone thinks I didn’t is cause I chose not to whine about it. I raised my lil brothers and sisters. I wasnt a brother i was a brother and a father to them. Because i chose not to get worked up over every issue that happens out there does not mean i do no love them. I chose not to get worked up about things cause it does me, them, and you no good whatsoever. Forgive me if I think whatever happens is out of my controll so I chose not to worry about it.

  309. PK

    You have a great head on your shoulders. No one faults you for not getting worked up over the issues, as the human experience cn only take so much.

    I talked to you a bit about my experience, years later I take it out on a differnt group whom I have no real ties to, but I see similar abuses, so I take my pot shots at the abusers.

    Call them surrogate targets or whatever. I see injustices happening to women and children and must speak out.

    For many, I reckon just getting out with their skin is like being reborn. Looking back at all the issues can be extremely painful, often its best to look forward at a new wonderful life and drop your worries of the past.

    So this is where I am concerned about Pliggy – they are now just sucking his money without benefit of family home or what one would expect from a Church.

    They are even too chicken to say who the leader is, I think no one person is, they gave up on “one man rule” because that “one man” is in prison drooling.

  310. “Bottom line is, as a result of inbreeding, these people are unfit and not worthy of basic human dignity that we as a free nation afford to those of different races and cultures.”

    Umm, does this Buster-person hold any public office? Because I tend to think he shouldn’t have any authority anywhere. Every human is worthy of basic human dignity, even if they need to be removed from society to protect society.

  311. Rebeckah

    Buster Johnson is on the Mohave County Board of Supervisors and is a board member for Boot’s non-profit.

  312. PK,
    You certainly have my deepest sympathies. Not getting worked up and not worrying are two different matters. It’s clear that you still care and worry about your family very much. You’ve made the choices you needed to survive and live with yourself but that doesn’t mean that you don’t wish for better for those you had to leave behind. I appreciate it whenever you correct misconceptions here, just like I do with Cement, because you are two who will state the truth as you perceive it and that helps to keep a balance for others. No one group is completely evil. In fact, it seems to me that the worst abuses took place under Warren’s reign and that matters were much less grim under Rulon. Thanks for being willing to reveal yourself, and make yourself vulnerable, by sharing details and giving perspective on misconceptions. Without people like you and Cement there would probably be a lot more Busters out there telling us that people don’t deserve basic human dignity.

  313. Ummmm, wow. No offense, Boots, but you might want to reconsider Buster’s appointment. EVERY human deserves basic human dignity. The fact that Warren didn’t believe that is what got him into the mess he is in. How can you possibly help people who have had their rights as human beings abrogated by continuing to deny them basic human rights?

    And Mohave County might want to condsider a replacement too. I can understand frustration with this situation, but what he wanted to happen is illegal as far as I can tell.

  314. Rebeckah

    It certainly does reinforce the stereotype that people who are anti-FLDS are bigoted haters. Fortunately Duane is on vacation otherwise we’d be hearing him crowing about this.

  315. Ron! LOL

  316. I was laughing at your zing to Duane, not the first part. 🙂

  317. Rebeckah

    I understood. Although it sure does get quiet when Darth Pliggy isn’t around. Maybe he’s having a sit down with the new Prophet.

  318. No Duane is around. He left a dropping over on Texas Bluesman pooh poohing that he had disappeared because of the IRS liens. Says they don’t matter because everybody hates the IRS anyway

  319. Thats just the thing Rebeckah. Its what makes me so different from most everyone from there. The last thing i want is anyones sympathy. We empower peopple from there to complain. We tell them they should by our symathies for them. People that anyone can get to leave that group…..we dont save them……we damn them. They may have better lives by society standards but quality of life or as i call “gumption” is greatly decreaced. This is why i dont care for flora or elise or brent. Bunch of whiners if you ask me. The stronger person would hold thier head up high and not feel the need to bother anyone with thier sad sad life. Those are the people that want sympathy…..i suggest everyone just saves it for them. 😛

  320. “…everybody hates the IRS anyway.”

    How duane-y.

    I don’t like to work IRS collections cases, but the examiners I have encountered in my time have all been extremely nice people.

    We elect legislators. They enact tax laws. IRS enforces the laws made by Congress. If you’re going to hate the IRS, go ahead and hate Congress and the President, and then, gee, you might as well move someplace like Haiti or Somalia and be done with it.

    Or you could always *GASP* get involved in the process and work to change the laws. When hell freezes over, right, duane?

    And duane darlin — try your best not to take advantage of or use ANY of the taxpayer-provided benefits with which this nation is blessed — like good roads, safe pharmaceuticals, licensed profesionals, and basic protection.

    Send me a postcard from Haiti, would ya? So that I can give thanks that I don’t have to live there.

  321. Rebeckah and Ron,

    Please check the article again. You are assuming that the whole post was Buster’s quote and it wasn’t.

    ““Bottom line is, as a result of inbreeding, these people are unfit and not worthy of basic human dignity that we as a free nation afford to those of different races and cultures.”

    That was the poster’s comment, NOT Busters.

    At least Texasmom caught it. Thanks Texasmom. It’s always ugly when someone tries to twist or add to someones words and attempts to destroy their credibility. I won’t let anyone here do that Buster. He’s a good man who has stood against the corruption in that county for years, many times at great personal expense.

  322. PK, you know I love you. I will pray that you receive the spirit of compassion.

    Whether you like it or not.

  323. compasion and tolarance are good in moderation……..they are also what i believe is the fall of our race.

  324. There are times for tolerance and times to throw the moneylenders out of the temple, and so few of us are wise enough to know the difference.

  325. But I can still feel compassion for the moneylender on his ass in the street with his monies scattered around him.

  326. “The stronger person would hold thier head up high and not feel the need to bother anyone with thier sad sad life.”

    I disagree with your take on this. I think Flora, Elyssa, et al are trying to raise awareness so that other children don’t suffer what they did. It takes a lot of courage for them to speak out as they do, particularly given the atrocious way the FLDS trash anyone who DOES speak out.

    My sympathies are not the “poor, poor you” type of sympathies. They are the “I know it’s been hard, I can empathise.” btw. Women tend to be able to express empathy better than men, which may be the source of your misunderstanding. 😉

  327. “That was the poster’s comment, NOT Busters.”

    Oooohhh, that’s good to know. (I did find it odd that an elected official could be so politically inappropriate. 😉 )

    I didn’t actually read the article, just the post. I’ll read the article itself now.

    Thanks, Boots.

  328. your empathy and sympathy is an insult to me. I dont believe theres anything for you to be empathetic or sympathise about. Basicly when you feel sorry for me its the same as calling me a whiner.

  329. Good point, Rebeckah,

    “I think Flora, Elyssa, et al are trying to raise awareness so that other children don’t suffer what they did. It takes a lot of courage for them to speak out as they do, particularly given the atrocious way the FLDS trash anyone who DOES speak out.”

    Please add Buster Johnson to your list of the very rare people with the courage to stand up and speak out about the abuses that have taken place in Mohave County for years, with impunity.

  330. and awareness has done a bang up job so far at saving those kids right? Those kids are in worse shape now then they ever have been. I fully expect lots of those kids to go suicidal at this point.

  331. PK,
    You are misunderstanding me. It’s okay, communication between two people can be difficult. I will leave it at this. I do not feel sorry for you. For me, sympathy and empathy in no way involve pity or feeling “sorry” for anyone.

    And, as always, I do value your input when you choose to give it. Balance is nice and first hand information is usually better than second or third hand information.

    I hope that clears matters up for you some.

  332. We don’t pity you, PK, we admire the heck out of you.

    As for the kids being worse off than before, I don’t believe that. And if I’d had to live like Carolyn lived, I’d certainly have been suicidal long before she managed to escape. You and I both know of kids who were trapped in the sect a year ago, and today are free and happy.

    This sect didn’t grow up, with all its grotesque permutations, in a day or a month or a year, but over more than a century. You can expect it to take some time to dismantle it.

  333. I understand what your saying (i think).

    What im saying is i love my life and i wouldn’t change 1 thing in my entire life. Not the bad not the good not the in between. I love who i have become. I may be a lil cocky or big headed but anyone that hangs out with me i concider to be very fortunate. I do believe i add value to any conversation…..not just flds. I do believe i am a good person. I do believe im smart. I believe I can do just about anything i set my mind to.

    I would never have gotten so confident if it wasn’t for the crap i went through. I will never complain about my life. I can describe my personality in one simple phrase.


    All im saying is we empower people from there to complain by giving them our sympathy. I think we should tell them to cowboy up.

  334. I believe you are all of those things, including cocky and with a big head, lol.

    I also believe that because you are a unique human being, you have strengths that other people don’t have or haven’t developed yet.

    I also maintain that it is very different for you as a man, and that you went out into the bigger world with more tools, emotionally and intellectually, than most flds women have.

  335. Seems like one of the most consistent complaints from the Warrenite faction is just that elected officials are doing their job, law enforcement is giving citations and making arrests and judges are trying the cases to convictions and sentencing. This creates a huge furor and howling amongst the Warrenites. Sorry, PlygKid but the biggest set of whiners is the congregation of FLDS Church that claim every conviction is a targeted individual, every arrest is a persecution, every judge is mistaken and likely to be overturned and all Judicial and Legislative authority is bankrupt and biased against the poor FLDS Church. Really they show how a criminal class, that has gotten away with a blatant disregard for our laws reaches a level of contempt that even the highest authorities are wrong and fault their actions. The game is ending in Short Creek, the UEPTrust is not going to be recognizable in it’s legally enforceable version to them, Warren S. Jeffs isn’t getting out of prison nor going to be exonerated and the Texas Exodus and other ‘Lands of Refuge’ have drawn close scrutiny and examination from local Sheriffs and elected officials.

    Criticizing the apostates and victims that choose to speak out and expose the crime wave, criminal intent and organized lawless practices are not to be faulted or called whiners but listened to for their courageous stands and unwavering defiance. Elissa & Becky Wall appeared in the Courtroom and faced their Prophet and testified to the Truth, Flora Jessop has brought Press exposure and television journalist coverage right into the secretive sects Hildale/Colorado City communities, Carolyn Jessop defied her husband, no less than a Bishop in the church, and spoken out through Public interviews and written materials against the extent of the abuses. These people can’t be accurately describe as just “whiners” as they have all stood up to courtroom, personal risks and Public opinion to have their truth be known. PlygKid your version of ‘gumption’ is lacking in testifying in a Courtroom, facing your enemies, Publicly stating your word or sacrificing all that you have to speak the truth, to me that is real gumption.

  336. I understand what you’re saying too, PK. And you’re not only right, you’re more mature than most in society today to realize it. EVERYONE has a hard life in one way or another and those who grow from it are the ones who truly live.

    Warren Jeffs has my pity. I feel sorry for him because his life is so horrible for him right now, even worse than it would be for someone like me to be in a similar situation (I don’t have his control issues.). Warren hasn’t grown. He hasn’t learned. He’s basically suffering because of that, and it is cause for pity. (Not that I’m saying he should be set free to harm more people.)

    You have my respect. I agree totally that you don’t need pity. I also don’t pity Carolyn, Elissa or any of the others. They have my respect too. I don’t know about Brent, as he hasn’t been in my radar much, but I do truly feel that the women are doing what they do for the women and children that they feel need help. And I believe there are a lot more of them than anyone connected with the FLDS want to admit. Maybe it’s more of a woman thing, but it isn’t whining.

  337. Yes, Boots that’s right. The part about human decency is the poster’s quote and not Johnson’s.

    I’m still concerned about “they cannot be allowed back into normal society,” “They need to be allowed to die out completely” and the round them up without probable cause mentality.

    That’s the sort of dumba$$ redneck thinking the ends up generating sympathy for the FLDS rather than effectively dealing with the problems.

    But heck, it sounds tough and makes for a great sound bite, huh?

  338. Empathy is not pity, it is seeing the other person as a real person like yourself, not an actor in a play you write, produce and direct. It can never be an insult, but is the true first step in understanding.

  339. Sorry, but I feel nothing for Warren. I guess I should, but I can’t muster it. I think he is suffering because he used to be a narcissist in a candy store of his own making and now he’s a narcissist in solitary. He’s still a narcissist. I hope he lives long enough that they get to prosecute the heck out of him. I don’t know why Arkansas can arrest, try and convict Alamo faster than Texas can get Warren into court, though.

  340. I think there is a phase in the healing from any injury where whining is doing you a service, but I think that phase is very brief. Generally, after the initial crisis, it does you no good. I would never use the words “cowboy up”, but I think taking responsibility for your own reactions is a similar concept. Nobody can control the cards that they are dealt, but everyone controls how they play them.

  341. Alamo has no Mormons advocating for him behind the scenes.

  342. in my description i should have mentioned bull headed cause its still whining to me lol.

    caljim i dont believe in the same system as you and everyone else. I will not admire anyone standing up in court to anyone because to me they are just men. The whole its cause im not a women thing is just empowering women from there to complain. Its like saying if i was a woman i would have a right to complain. Everyone has the right to complain forgive me if i wiegh them on it. I dont believe the system in this country works. I believe as a society our race is just screwed and we eventually will become a race of crybabies. I dont think they stood up in court anyway for any other reason then revenge. Most everyone I have ever met has this “we are going to make them pay” attitude and i think its a load of crap.

    I came from one of the most disfunctional famlies ever to be in the flds. If I can do it anyone can and for anyone to make an excuse as to why some one else cant is just telling them its alright to fail.

  343. Failure is a learning process, not an irreversible judgment.

  344. where is the learning when you just accept that you failed and dont try again.

  345. Ron, I think you’ll find Buster, having been an LA County Sheriff’s Deputy [who worked undercover Narc] for years before he left to retire and go to Arizona, sounds and thinks about this issue an awful lot like a cop would.

    He sees this whole thing as a failure of law enforcement. It is not as though law enforcement had no evidence the laws were/are being broken and little girls were/are being raped and molested.

    Does that make any sense to you about where he is ‘coming from’?

  346. PK, we don’t know who has failed and who’s still trying, and who’s not. What’s most frightening is that so many people cling blindly to what they’ve known all their lives and never try at all.

  347. If you want to march in there and tell them what they believe is wrong……..your the same as the flds.

    Best thing is to let them figure it out.

    I’m not saying i never whined…i did…..alot. All im saying is it did more damage then good for people to feel sorry for me. I’m a big guy…i cried….im not ashamed to admit it. Tons of people telling me its ok…..i was a poor abused lil plyg boy…..then i sunk deeper. Human nature told me that because im gettin this attention for being sad…..stay sad. It go so bad that i was suicidal….imagine how much attention that would have got me right? But right then i knew what was going on was wrong. So i told everyone who was sympathic to me to stick it burned every bridge i could. Life just got better after that.

    Now my life could not be more perfect.

  348. Boots

    In may ways I agree with him and understand where he’s coming from. It’s simply amazing how pathetic law enforcement has been on this issue.

    I’m said lots of things that had I the opportunity I would have said vastly differently or not at all. However, all his words do is feed the “you don’t like us because of our religion” card that the FLDS always try to play.

    Like I said to Rebeckah, thankfully Duane must be spending his internet time of the swinger boards.

  349. Don’t you hate it when you see the typos just after you’ve hit “SUBMIT”?

  350. Sorry, allowing critical comments like ‘whiners’ to go unchecked is abandonment of the rightside on this issue. Before anyone dares to criticize the persons like Brent Jeffs, Carolyn Jessop, Flora Jessop, Elissa and Becky Wall, they have to make their stand Publicly and equally to these heroic people. Don’t lie down and take it like a man, suffer your injustices in silence, stand up to injustice but don’t speak out or “Keep Sweet” when your conscience, personal character is attacked and speaking the truth places you in harms way.

    Whining seems to be an art form preserved exclusively for the Warrenites and their supporters. ExFLDS members are supposed to stand up to some code of silence, forbearance and free from any act to counter all the FLDS Church lies, falsehoods and illegal practices. Seems like a fools errand to me. Best selling books, largest parental abuse case in Texas history, Child Brides & Lost Boys and UEPTrust violations speaks for itself on whether this is whining or someone yelling, “Help, Police” at an appropriate time.
    PlyKid you would noticeably turn red if you ever came face to face with any of these ‘whiners’. What have you done to fix or remedy the situation?

  351. The reason i post on these things………cause i know theres plygs that will read this and the message i want to send them is.


  352. That’s a good message to send, PK.

    Add to it that there are people who care, are supportive, and will help if they can.

    It isn’t true that they have nobody to turn to.

  353. cal jim you do not have to like me….i do not need you to like or understand me. I do not believe i would be red. I do not give a damn about thier feelings or yours. I dont need to prove myself to you or the “whiners” or anyone else. I can burn the bridges here without blinking an eye and not feel one bit bad about it. You may stick it where the sun dont shine just like the rest of the enablers.

  354. Thanks Ron, I appreciate that you took the time to look closer.

    You think his words feed the FLDS ammo, but anything anyone says they will use as ammo to defend their “religion”.

    Just look at the 103 pages of closing in the supression hearing. They want to use “religion” as an excuse for abuse.

    Raising human beings to believe that unless they submit to an abusive crime they are headed directly for eternal suffering Hell seems rather abusive to me.

    That’s why polygamy is a crime because it is a human rights abuse. If you want to see people get out of the crime/abuse cycle they are probably going to need to be treated by professionals experienced in cult deprogramming.

    Flora agrees with that, I do and so does Buster. Their only hope is some form of intense therapy to help undo the damage done to them. Otherwise, if your eternal salvation hangs on continuing to participate, why on earth would you ever stop?

    I know you are a secular humanist and it may be hard to understand how so many people could truly believe anything about a G-d, but they do. And these poor people have been fed a distorted view of faith [requires abuse/crime for salvation] for 180 years now.

  355. Plykid
    That is a great message to send them and if it helps just one person it is worth it.

  356. PK, CaJim is a good guy. He’s just discussing with you, give him a break.

  357. PlygKid if I’m and enabler then what are you? Stand on the sidelines of life and call the people like Brent Jeffs and the Lost Boys whiners? There winners in my book and demonstrated their courage Publicly in a Courtroom. How did the Prophet respond? He’s still facing Federal flight charges because he chose to run and “Keep Sweet” about it. Well the judgment has been made and the ‘enabler’ Judge ruled in Brent Jeffs, the Lost Boys and Elissa Walls favor.

    I respect your right to express your views and state whatever you wish but I don’t have to buy your ‘whiner’ comment or your ‘hands in your pocket’ approach. Can’t accomplish much that way and you’ve been bested by those that have chosen to whine about it. PlygKid you are either a part of the problem or a part of the solution, straddling the line is a good way to get run over.

  358. i will be damned before i let anyone tell me what to think about anyone else or what i should think about anyone else. If i wanted to accept that i would have stayed in the creek. I do not fault anyone for liking them……more power to them……i merely explain how i feel about them. Anyone may worship the ground they walk on…does not matter to me one bit. I dont expect anyone to take anything i say as anything other then my own personal view however obscure or wrong it may be. It is still my opinion…….it will not be altered.

    caljims response is the same resaon i quit postin on the trib. I may think of myself as awsome…..i do not require anyone else to.

  359. PK, what you’re really doing is saying, if you (anybody) express your disagreement with me, I’ll pick up all my toys and go home.

    Lighten up a little. Let other people express themselves the same way you express yourself. Don’t take it so personally. If we took personally the things you sometimes say to us, we’d all hate your guts.

    But we don’t. Really.

  360. now tell me in a way that is supposed to make me give a damn what you think of me jim. You dont know what i have done…….just because it hasnt been reported in a newspaper doesnt make it real right. You think the only people worth a damn are the ones that brag about it? You dont have a clue who i am or what ive done so dont give me this hands in pocket crap. Just like i do not complain about whats wrong i do not believe in tooting my own horn. I do not need everyone to know what ive done right for me to feel good about myself. I am done talking to you now. Please feel no need comment back.

  361. plygkid said:

    I came from one of the most disfunctional famlies ever to be in the flds.

    Oh, you’d probably be surprised. Besides all families are dysfunctional. It’s just a question of degrees.

    I also admire your spunk.

    Now about this World of Warcraft addiction….


  363. PlygKid you had a right to say that the use of Teresa Steeds baby in a Courtroom of law to extract his/her DNA was abusive by authorities. What later transpired is a fake baby was taken to a clinic and the DNA was extracted then from the wrong baby. Do you care to comment on whether the wrong baby was being abused by Teresa Steed?

  364. Plgkid
    Don’t let others dictate whether you voice your opinion or “cause” you to not post anymore. You do have freedom of speech and you will not be punished for voicing it on these boards. If you choose to stop posting here then you are reverting back to your old ways by keeping your mouth shut. Don’t let others continue to control you. This is nothing compared to other things. KEEP YOUR HEAD UP!

  365. these poor people have been fed a distorted view of faith [requires abuse/crime for salvation] for 180 years now.

    Perhaps we should make them an offer that if they convert to a “true” Christian “faith” like Southern Baptist, they can get their property and homes back along with guarantees that their children won’t be taken from them en masse in suprise raids.

    BTW Boots, No matter what mean things the other anti-plygs say, I still like you.

    The Susan Mazur article is old news, I read that shortly after the raid, some of you made the point for me.
    If it is ok to stereotype all Mormon Fundies because of what Warren allegedly did, why is it not ok to stereotype all anti-flds as bigots and haters based on views expressed by several of them.

  366. Duane, for the zillionth time now, polygamy is abuse. They can believe anything they want to, just like anyone else in this country. Nobody can stop you from believing anything.

    Fortunately we are a nation of laws. Believing in something is fine. Breaking laws as a result of that faith is not.

  367. Sorry, duh duane you can call me a ‘bigot’ until hell freezes over the facts remain the facts. YFZ Raunch Warrenites were living with Warren S. Jeffs in their midst while he was on the FBI Ten Most Wanted list, so let’s cut out your bull hockey on how can you blame all the innocent people at the ranch, it’s called abetting. No one called authorities, no one has come forward as an eye-witness and no one living at the ranch can claim that it wasn’t a hold-up for Warren and the rest of the “Dirty Dozen” indictees. They are charged with marrying 9 Child Brides, statutory rape and bigamy while residing in the embrace of a hard working and lawless group of individuals hold-up on the YFZ Raunch.

  368. Research on effects of Polygamy

    A Comparison of Family Functioning, Life and Marital Satisfaction, and Mental Health of Women in Polygamous and Monogamous Marriages
    Alean Al-Krenawi
    John R. Graham
    Method: A sample of 352 women participated in this study: 235 (67%) were in a monogamous marriage and 117 (33%) were in a polygamous marriage.

    Results: Findings reveal differences between women in polygamous and monogamous marriages. Women in polygamous marriages showed significantly higher psychological distress, and higher levels of somatisation, phobia and other psychological problems.
    They also had significantly more problems in family functioning, marital relationships and life satisfaction.
    International Journal of Social Psychiatry, Vol. 52, No. 1, 5-17 (2006)

    Polygyny is dangerous for women !

    Women from Polygamous and Monogamous Marriages in an Out-Patient Psychiatric Clinic
    Alean Al-Krenawi
    Ninety-two women were interviewed using a semi-structured open-ended questionnaire. The subjects were divided into two groups: (1) senior wives in polygamous marriages (N= 53); and (2) wives in monogamous marriages (N= 39). There was a greater prevalence of various symptoms among polygamous respondents, two of which are of particular interest: low self-esteem and loneliness. Findings also showed a relationship between a high number of female children among polygamous respondents and low self-esteem. Polygamous respondents who thought that they were perceived as old by their husbands also reported low self esteem. In addition, respondents from polygamous marriages reported poor relationships with their husbands.
    Transcultural Psychiatry, Vol. 38, No. 2, 187-199 (2001)

    Polygyny is detrimental to child development :
    Child and Adolescent Social Work Journal, December, 1997
    Alean Al-Krenawi, John R. Graham and Salem Al-Krenawi

    Abstract Data are based on student files of 25 children born to senior mothers of polygamous families, and interviews with the children”s teachers and mothers. Mothers complained of somatic symptoms, economic problems, poor relations with the husband, and competition and jealousy between the co-wives and among the co-wives” children. Children had a variety of behavioural problems, and below average academic achievement. Social work practice should recognize the cultural and personal significance of polygamy to family members; appreciate the significance of polygamy to children’s functioning; select children as a target system for intervention; and reinforce the Islamic value base for

    J Soc Psychol. 2002 Aug;142(4):446-60
    Mental health aspects of Adolescents from Polygamous versus Monogamous Families.
    Al-Krenawi A, Graham JR, Slonim-Nevo V.

    The authors considered the mental health consequences of polygamy in a sample of 101 adolescents (19 from polygamous and 82 from monogamous families). The respondents completed the Self-Esteem Scale (SE; M. Rosenberg, 1979), the Brief Symptom Inventory (BSI; L. Derogatis & N. Melsavados, 1983; L. Derogatis & P. Spencer, 1982), and the McMaster Family Assessment Device (FAD; N. B. Epstein, M. N. Baldwin, & D. S. Bishop, 1983). The respondents from polygamous families had lower self esteem scores, statistically significant higher scores on measures of depression and anxiety, and higher levels of self-reported family dysfunction. The respondents from polygamous families reported lower levels of socioeconomic status, and lower academic achievement.

  369. duaneypooh, I want the people of the flds to discover that there are other ways to believe and a loving God waiting for them, so they can choose what kind of religion they want to adhere to.

    Once they have choices, they may find themselves interested in building a “true Christian faith” for themselves.

    Sorry to disappoint you that it might be something other than Southern Baptists, however.

  370. caJim

    We all have our ways of dealing with the crap that happens in our lives. Plygkid has the attitude of picking himself up, dusting himself off, and just getting down the road. He views the constant telling of one’s story as whining.

    I get where he’s coming from. I don’t think he’s casting stones when he calls others whiners. Besides, everyone’s entitled to their opinion.

  371. dun, dun, dun, dun-ta dun, dun-ta dun

    Darth Pliggy returns

  372. BTW Boots, No matter what mean things the other anti-plygs say, I still like you.

    Gee, I’ll bet Boots is just full of warm fuzzies right now.

  373. Plygkid:
    Your advice to the FLDS is a good one.
    Yes, they can get out, make and hold their head up high.
    What some of us like you to understand is that it is more difficult for a 20 year old girl to get out, with several young babies,than a single 18 year old boy.Not just coming out of the FLDS, but abusive marriages etc.Those mothers will do anything to get food on the table for their kids, including to write a book.
    My father disowned me the day I married an American, no one has ever heard me whine about that either, dysfunctional family? You bet.But I also swear that all of that has created a backbone in me that not all people have. I understand you to some degree.

  374. The only thing I’m full with right now is a big ole bowl of red beans and some fresh onion for lunch.

  375. I think the 20 year old girl can make it just fine if she lets herself. Never said it wouldnt be hard…..but i have faith in her.

  376. people that know me in person know that i would give a stranger the shirt off my back…….they also know that i dont give everyone what they ask for…..just what i think is best.

  377. “PlygKid you are either a part of the problem or a part of the solution, straddling the line is a good way to get run over.”

    That’s rather black and white thinking. PK doesn’t have to be part of either. Millions of people in this world neither know or care about the FLDS mess, and they are neither part of the solution OR the problem — they simply exist.

  378. for instance…i have friends that are horrible with money…..they ask me for some to pay the bills……..i dont give them money…i buy them quickbooks and show them how to use it.

  379. “Now about this World of Warcraft addiction….”

    Thou shalt not criticize the World of Warcraft. Failure to obey the commandment of God in this matter will result in a herd of angry Taurans stampeeding over your car. (You may or may not be in it at the time, depending on how bad their day has been…)

  380. Hi all,

    Wow….interesting debate(s) today. I’d chime in, but I doubt my opinion would be well received — so I’ll just keep sweet 🙂

    btw Rattle — air conditioned Baptist buses are the reason most people join the faith, don’t ya know. hahaha!

  381. its ok my shammy will whoop down on all the taurans

  382. and rebeckah… is true your part of the problem or the solution. the mistake we all make is we assume if some one isnt part of our solution then they are part of the problem.

  383. TexasMom, I would be more than happy to be LIVING in an air conditioned Baptist bus right now!

  384. Ron, PlygKid can use any description that he chooses and I choose the word winners, like himself they have escaped from the church of lies and are now free to live there own lives. I look upon the YFZ Ranch as a ‘rescue’ attempt and most describe it as a ‘raid’, FLDS Church members want to focus on the two month CPS Removal as the most tragic event concerning their YFZ congregation and I would like to focus on the trauma and fanticism that existed to move 550+ Adults and children from Utah to Texas all based upon an imprisoned Prophet’s revelation(s). 439 children lives were completely uprooted from the Short Creek area and taken over 1,000+miles to a secluded enclave behind twin barbed wires and a guard tower based upon whose authority and directions? That’s the traumatizing event I would like to see investigated and discussed in the Press and Public venues. Sorry, Given the few apostates willing to come forward into the Public’s view, speak their truth, write their books, give their television/press interviews, give sworn testimony in courts and place themselves in harms way, not only deserve my respect but command my support.

    Thinking that you will end this saga on the behind the scenes approach, muster Public support by your silence, hold the Presses attention by giving no interviews and give no witness or record of your truth is not the course normally of changing events. 175 year history isn’t going to change with a Zorro or Robin Hood tale it will end when the Public/Press are brought to bear on this unending cycle of crimes, abuses and fanaticism and is prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Defeating La Cosa Nostra, Bootleggers in Prohibition and Drug Cartels all came about when the focus was made more Public not private and more exposure and not continued secrecy.

  385. Plygkid,

    Did you know Ruby Jessop?

  386. name sounds familliar but i cant place a face

  387. merely thinking this issue can be “fixed” is a fairytale. Like i said….the flds is like a hydra….cut off 1 head 3 more grow back. Lots of people thought throwing warren in jail would fix things….as I see it……notso much. This issue will exist long after we are all dead and dust.

  388. She is Flora’s sister who tried to get out when she was forced to marry her step brother. I know others who are now out, who did know her.

    They have assured me that Ruby did/does not stay because she wanted/wants to, but because she was/is forced to.

  389. Actually, PK, I was saying exactly the same thing to TexasMom on the phone the other day — that this situation is going to outlive us.

    I don’t see that as a good excuse not to do anything about it, however.

    Every family that gets out is a victory — YOU’RE a victory. Individuals count.

  390. ok………is she out now?

  391. you think i do nothing just like jim says rattle?

  392. No. One contact has told me she now has six children and has attempted suicide several times.

    I would like to see Ruby Jessop and all of her children brought in for questioning, without the presense of any other FLDS member or any law enforcement from Mohave County.

    If upon being questioned she wants to leave with ALL of her children, they should let her.

  393. maybe i should write that book so yall can feel like im part of the team? lol

  394. “merely thinking this issue can be “fixed” is a fairytale. Like i said….the flds is like a hydra….cut off 1 head 3 more grow back. Lots of people thought throwing warren in jail would fix things….as I see it……notso much. This issue will exist long after we are all dead and dust.”

    I think you are absolutely right. That’s why I think education is the key. While I am not anti-homeschool by any means (I homeschooled one child and public schooled his sister — they had different needs and different educational approaches worked best for them.) but I do believe there needs to be considerably more governmental oversight as to what is being taught children. I also think that testing should be mandatory on a yearly basis to make sure that children are receiving a well rounded education. Finally, I really would like to see federal laws passed and enforced requiring caregivers to provide basic medical care to the children they are responsible for, regardless of their religious beliefs. After that, let folks make their own decisions.

  395. give her time……she will be out some day. Ill put money on it.

  396. And PK, I’m mostly Alliance. I only play a couple of Horde characters because my son loves Horde and this way we can bond sometimes. He has a few Alliance characters for the same reason. 🙂

  397. Plygkid,

    I’m glad you think so but without the help of law enforcement I just don’t think it will ever happen.

  398. heres what ill do. for every person i “save” ill put a tattoed x on my arm…..then in a few years ill be able to flex my save the plyg muscle for yall.

  399. So is it your opinion that there is nothing to save Ruby from?

  400. im sure there is……go for it. I’m not stopping you.

  401. PK, “someday” may not be soon enough.

  402. Hmm, where’d my other post go?

  403. not to sound hearless but…….thats too bad. We cant save every child that falls down a well either.

    Go call the cops have them charge in

  404. ‘Lukewarm’ would be my description based solely on your ashucks comments and statement that you find yourself thinking less and less about Short Creek issues as time goes by for you. You been away so long you can’t rightly say what’s going on in Hildale. I didn’t state you have done nothing or don’t care by saying your ‘hands in your pockets’ approach is too passive of an approach for me, not for you. If your truly more active behind the scenes then I don’t appreciate your ‘Steppin’ Fetch’it’ persona given here on this board. I understand that being exFLDS would put you at greater risk when you take actions but you give a false impression of your truer feelings than the passive demeanor that you post here. I have a commanding respect for those that fight in the arena and prove their worth by their deeds, actions and words. Teresa Steed may be the #10 Child Bride and no charges have been brought but alot of resistance and courtroom hijinks were pulled to blunt the Truth from being revealed.

  405. PK, I don’t know what you’re doing to help, because you haven’t told me. Drop me an email if you’d rather not publicize it — I can see why you wouldn’t want to.

  406. im sorry jim i dont help in the way you would like me to. I’m deeply sorry that my opinion offends you. But you can really blow it out your…….well you get the picture.

  407. Plygkid,

    I’ve met an awful lot of FLDS [and other polygamy sect] survivors and many of them are very much like you. They don’t want to get involved, write books, go on speaking tours or make a fuss. They simply want to rebuild their shattered lives. I don’t begrudge you that at all.

    That doesn’t mean the few rare individuals who do are “whiners”. It simply means that their own conscience motivates them to take positive action to get help for those still trapped in the abuse cycle.

    I wish you every happiness life can bring you.

    I also wish Ruby had been rescued rather than sent back to her abusers for more of the same, so she could enjoy the happiness and freedom she deserves as an American citizen. Her human and civil rights have been trampled with impunity for years now.

    I don’t understand how we can sit back and tolerate that as a civilized society going ‘Oh well thems the breaks for some folks’.

  408. No, we can’t save every child that falls down a well. But we can try.

    You’d want us to help if it were your child.

    I can tell you that my child and Jim’s child and Carolyn’s child and Ruby’s child are just as valuable.

  409. Funny story.

    I was at this big re-enactment camping event and I was reading “Under the Banner of Heaven” in the common tent for my group. Kind of like sitting in a communal dining room between meals. So this woman who is visiting and sitting there doing her hand sewing sees the book and asks me what I think of it. Next thing I know I’m in a horrible argument with her.

    Seems that she went to BYU and was raised a Mormon. Even though she is not now a practicing Mormon, (actually, I think she’s some sort of celtic pagan type) her whole approach to the polygamists and ANY abuse or problem you could come up with was “Leave them alone, they are trying to serve God and all of you are just bigoted.” It’s the fault of the rest of society that we made the poor polygamists move off into nowhere and be so secretive and all of their bad behavior stems from that, so really it’s America’s fault if someone gets abused. I’ve heard these excuses so often from people online, it was quite bizarre to meet someone in the flesh who was doing that. She swore she was not interested in polygamy or Mormonism at this point in her life, but she still believed the whole rest of the world is wrong and the fundies were right.

    It explained a lot to me about why no one gets prosecuted.

    Maybe instead of trying to change the minds of the fundies, we should try to change the minds of the mainstream LDS and get them to prosecute their cousins for everything in the world that is going on EXCEPT polygamy. Come down on em like a sack of cement, throw everything at them but the kitchen sink. Cause I don’t think the fundies are going to listen no matter what we say, and the women are very hard to reach with any message. Maybe we are talking to the wrong people.

  410. well like you said think ill gather up my toys and go some place else. Concider this my formal bridge burning. Everyone I have ever talked to on this forum or any else…..dont talk to me ever again. You didnt understand before……you dont understand now… never will. Have fun with your lil tea party.

  411. Sometimes you only have enough strength to keep yourself going! Staying the path you’ve taken. Plygkid is out, and he does have another life now. But I would be willing to bet, He still has issues himself he deals with daily.
    None of us have walked in his shoes,, and maybe his feet are tired?
    It took a long time to walk away from his family, that has got to be hard. He had to find his own strength to do that, no one can expect him to find the strength in another person. He pretty said, If anyone wants out and asks his help, he will be there.
    Trully, I think that’s all anyone could ask of him.

  412. Plykid, I do understand where you are coming from!! Please don’t leave.

  413. Plykid, I do understand where you are coming from!! Please don’t leave. You have a right to say whatever you want here.

  414. PK, my dear, I’m not attacking you.

    I guess you’d like me better if I just lay down and let you walk on me?

  415. plygkid,

    I hope you will reconsider — or at the very least, will pop in now and again to let those *moms* here (who clearly CARE about you) know how you’re doing. It’s not necessary that we understand your journey….but we do wish you strength and wisdom as you travel it.


  416. Plygkid, I understand its hard for you to understand, most of us here, don’t put what’s happening in Flds on a “religious” level.
    Because its not about religion. Its about human beings, regardless of belief, put up other humans as sacrifices for the few. This is what I personally think is wrong in Flds.
    Your an intelligent, common sense person Plygkid,, a young man who can and does think for himself… Yet you were born into, and it took years for you leave. And your a strong person. So what about the weak ones Plygkid?

  417. PS. I would rather you get angry here, than to keep it inside, or take it home with you!

  418. Maybe instead of trying to change the minds of the fundies, we should try to change the minds of the mainstream LDS

    Yeah, good luck with that….

  419. Plygkid

    Actually, a lot of folks get where you’re coming from. Some people see abuse and want to become a savior and go charging in. You’re not that type. Neither am I.

    My personal opinions are that folks need to work out their own salvation (fear and trembling optional) and that generally in the end most saviors end up getting crucified.

    Then again, WTF do I know?

  420. Ron, if MLK had just kept his nose in his own business he would probably still be alive today, but thank G-d he charged in when he did.

  421. Boots

    I think you’re doing a terrific public service by keeping the light on the horrid practices of folks like the FLDS. Light truly is the best disinfectant.

    I just question how much you can save the stupid from their own stupidity.

  422. There are enough laws on the books to take care of underage marriages, abuse, scams, Frauds,,,, My problem is when all these documents are staring LE, FBI, IRS right in the face, why are they ignoring the LAW!!!!
    If I owed 77,000 dollars to the IRS< , my butt would be OUT on the street, homeless.

  423. FLDS is NOT a registered Religion nor do they have tax exempt status….
    So what the crap!!

  424. Thanks Ron. I appreciate that. Plygkid has to do whatever he has to do to remain a survivor, rather than a victim and I don’t blame him at all for that.

    “I just question how much you can save the stupid from their own stupidity”.

    Me too. All I’m asking for is the same thing DD is, to have the laws in my country enforced.

    To believe that every person still in the FLDS makes that choice “freely” is wrong. Ruby wanted out. When law enforcement “interviewed” her, she was in the presense of other FLDS members. Now exactly how many rape and kidnapping victims are ever interviewed this way?

    She wanted out and law enforcement didn’t bother to interview her privately. They made sure her abusers were standing right over her when they asked her if she was staying under her own free will.

    Dose no one else find this ‘odd’?

  425. No, it doesn’t seem odd Boots, the same thing happened with Jenetta Jessop. She called her sister Suzanne and told her she was supposed to get married to Warren… She didn’t want to, she aske Suzanne if she would meet her, so she could leave. Suzanne, did, but when she got there, No jeanetta…. Suzanne went to her parents house, barged in and wanted to know where Jeanetta was, her parents wouldn’t say anything, she checked Jeanetta’s room , clean as a whistle.. Nothing left.
    To make a long story short,,, She was gone for awhile, and they had missing persons out on her. The police picked her and her mother up with Colorado City, and took them to the office..
    When asked if she was okay,, She said< YES! She was fine, and had just gone on a vacation????
    All LIES!!! She was married to WArren Jeffs!! And had been living in Texas.

  426. Kathy Jo Nicholson, same thing,,, the day Johnny died, the Sheriff went to his home,,, searched his room, everything had been maticualously cleaned, nothing out of place. And as Kathy said, her brother was kinda of a slob.
    Did he die by accident??? I don’t think so!

  427. Ruth Cooke swears her little girl was killed by her husband. But no one listened to her, because they said she was mental… But is she?

  428. Ruth cooke hates Sam Barlow and her xhusband,, can’t say as I blame her

  429. Lloyd Hammon Barlow, the doctor from YFZ ranch was warren’s doctor when he first went to prison. Did you know that? He called in Dr. Eric Nielson to evaluate Warren for competency for trial.

  430. Did you know the the day before and the day after the first children were taken from YFZ Ranch, Warren had two visitors. Namoie Jeffs, and Patrica Keate?

  431. DD

    Can you put those two visitors in context? Fill in a little bit for me.

  432. Patrica Keate is married to Michael Keate Ron

  433. She is one of the mothers who showed up at the ranch, and her children had alraedy been taken to San Angelo… She told CPS she had been out of town….. YUP she sure had, to see Warren in Prison.

  434. Since I want to be an equal opportunity offender of all religions, be prepared to be outraged over the Catholic church’s lobbying efforts.

  435. Ron, religions aren’t my Thang!!!

  436. Unlike Pharisee, Im not fighting to get INTO a religion, Im fighting to stay OUT of one.

  437. I’m not going to read the link provided (I have a headache) but even without the editorial “sandwich” Buster Johnson’s comments as related were extremely ill-advised.

    LE can’t go into anyone’s house and say, “Everyone outside. Let’s see your birth certificates. OK, you clearly had a kid at 12; we’re taking you away for deprogramming. Won’t repent? You’re in the re-education camps until you die.”

    That sounds like Mao’s “Great Step Forward” or something.

    Anon’s post had some charming language describing the FLDS (some from Johnson and some from the hag who posted it): “inbreeding”, “deformities”, “deprogram”, “addiction”, “incestuous”, “unfit”, “child molestion”, “theft”, “financial fraud”, “tax evasion”, “welfare fraud”, “abortions”, “parasitism”, etc. I appreciate that TexasMom and others immediately distanced themselves from it, but I can also understand that it might have set PK (which was the intention, I’m afraid).

    When PK tells you he is from the world’s most dysfunctional family, he is not exaggerating. But to know that himself is one thing; to endlessly hear about it in public is something else altogether. This is not to say we should stop discussing polygamy or the abuses of WSJ and Co. But for heaven’s sake, could we tone down the invective?

    Duane, I hope you were NOT the hag who posted that, but if you feel a finger pointing square at you, it’s no accident.

  438. While we are on the topic of Judges, there is a Judge Weiss in Arizona I think should be disbarred permanantly… He was the one who gave Dan Barlow 30days in jail, and 3 yrs probabtion for sexually assaulting all 5 of his daughters…
    And made the comment in court… “Oh, It was just a little breast touching” grrrrrrrrrr SOB!

  439. Another upstanding Flds,,,
    Donal Vernon Cooke, 39, 42 N. 500 West, Washington City, was arrested Sunday on charges of driving as an alcohol-restricted driver, open container of alcohol and driving under the influence. Cooke was booked into Purgatory Correctional Facility on $3,164 bail.

  440. Greetings from New York, you are absolutely correct that duane is the “anon” that posted BOTH the 1:47 am post about Buster Johnson and the 2:03 am post insulting plygkid.

    Duane if you are going to state your opinions here at least be “man” enough to post them under your own name and not hide behind the “anon” nom de plume.

  441. OH MAN!!!! duane,, YOU SUCK!!!

  442. Thank you flds texas,, duane talks about how “good” friends he is with plygkid, then he pulls crap like that,, you don’t shit like that to friends!!

  443. You’re right DD. You don’t do those sorts of things to your friends. You do those kinds of things, like Duane did to Buster this morning, to your enemies, not your friends.

    Maybe he didn’t even take into consideration what effect his words would have on Plygkid. Again, not what a friend does.


    Context is everything. It is not as if a law enforcement officer just walking around Colorado City, AZ wouldn’t see the same sorts of things they did at the YFZ. It just wouldn’t be so concentrated because of the lack of communal living.

    I think Buster was indeed simplifying things a bit in his scenario, but in his defense, we know that law enforcement has turned a completely blind eye in the past. Either that or acted as an actual facilitator in the abuses.

    I consider hiding over 20 cases of reported molestation in your city from CPS to be an act of conspiracy to the crime. Telling the Bishop, so they can repremand the culprit, rebaptize the molestor into the priesthood and punish the child for reporting it is not the way to handle things.

    If you were a “good cop” and you saw that sort of thing happening, how do you think you would feel?

    Cops are control freaks anyway. So it has to be a pretty frustrating and helpless sort of feeling, don’t you think?

  444. Duane, when we have cast aside our mortal coil nothing we’ve said about polygamy will matter one whit. All the words we hurl back and forth about it will probably change nothing. But it will matter a great deal whether we have built each other up or torn each other down, loved or hated each other.

    Do you feel good about yourself about being so hurtful? You knew PK was around, and you intentionally created a fake persona who said the FLDS are incestuous, deformed, inbred, parasitic child molesters. Nice, especially since you’ve done it before. (Please don’t justify your reaction by saying “PK doesn’t care;” you know as well as I do that his closest relatives are still in there.)

    Was this a juvenile idea of a prank, or did you think you could finally convince him that his ‘so-called’ friends really loathe him? Or were you thinking at all?

    For more than a year I have defended you against your critics. And I still want to find the good in you. (My present inclination is to rip your head off at the roots and return it to you as a suppository, in the hopes that it will improve your brain function. But I know I’ll get over that.)

    I am just so disappointed in you.

  445. Boots, my baby brother is a detective. While he might express himself forcibly when we’re sitting on the stoop complaining about the condition of the world, he would never say such a thing publicly.

  446. Unfortunately GFNY, I am more of a pessimist than you are I think there is no good to find in Duane. I am not disappointed in Duane this type of behavior is exactly what I expect of him.

  447. Uh, which thing. I guess I’m confused, talking about going from house to house and pulling birth cirtificates to show a pervasive pattern of sexual assault of children?

    Or that they are so hard core that they can’t just be broken up, made to quit practicing ploygamy and dropped into LA?

  448. Is that the Ruth on “Banking on Heaven” movie trailer telling of her husband “Dick” killing her two handicapped children, and the same Ruth that posts on

  449. And I very much think that the poster on the Trib that calls themself “godspecialone” is most definately duane.

  450. Yes FLDS TEXAS, it is the same Ruth.

  451. My brother would never say any of it, Boots.

    Just try this on for comparison, because it’s the race equivalent of what Buster said:

    “Law enforcement should go to every house and say: “Okay—everybody outside the house. Mothers stand with children. Okay, you’re the mother and this is your child.” And then you go inside and search for drugs, guns, whatever. And that way you can show that drug dealing’s been going on and is continuing. Along with teen pregnancy and child abuse…

    “Good law enforcement could put an end to this. But I think once they do that, then you have to take the families. You can bring in psychiatrists and try to save as many as you can. The ones you can’t save stay there until they die.”

    I have two huge problems with this:

    1. We are all entitled to the presumption of innocence, even if we belong to a group where a significant percentage engage in illegal acts;
    2. In America we do not put families into reeducation camps where they will stay until they toe an ideological line. We put lawbreakers in prison as punishment. Start doing that and there will be no need for reeducation.

    Well, I had a third objection, too, but I’ve forgotten it.

  452. Greetings,

    I can understand and respect those observations. No one ever said Buster was a brilliant social engineer.

    I have no authority to apologize for him. I’ll just say he is a kind compassionate human being dwelling in a pretty tough exterior. He doesn’t have much use for people who abuse little children. He has spent every Halloween that I can remember, volunteering to come in and sit with all the registered child molesters who are required to report to the county for the night. He likes to stare them down. That’s a happy Halloween for him, every year.

    His Christmas break is spent taking toys he has collected all year long to children in Mexico, who are so grateful…even for used toys, because otherwise they would never get anything at all.

    He may not be politically correct but he isn’t a monster.

  453. Duane is busted. Man, Duane, your honesty now is very highly suspect.

  454. Actually, Boots, I have some respect for him, because Mohave County seems to be the only government with the right idea about law enforcement out there.

    When social institutions like law and order or civil rights collapse, otherwise decent people lose their heads. If Buster hadn’t seen egregious problems, he wouldn’t feel so pressed about it, would he?

    As I’ve said before, good manners do not indicate morality, and rough manners don’t indicate immorality. I just wish he’d been more circumspect so his words could never have been thrown in our faces by Duane.

  455. Duh duane a new all time low. Congratulations I know Pliggy and Ziggy are so proud of you. Oh the Klu klux Klan response you say is given here to all genocidal and hatemonger has been disproven, again. So were do you go to really get your racist rhetoric, extermination plan and annihilation goal validated. I’d suggest the church your supporting they think all ‘Gentiles’ are EVIL, that the Almighty has a plan to fireball the balance of non FLDS and they are the racially pure and chosen ones, you should fit right in to their ‘End Time’ agenda.

  456. duane,

    All I can say is if I had no choice but to leave my children in the care of one of you over the weekend, I wouldn’t bat an eyelash making sure I picked Buster.

  457. duane

    Looks like the “Kindred Babes” just pantsed you.

    Say, what was that you said, you have first hand knowledge of the new flds Leader?

    Who is this first handed person of such high integrity?

  458. Boots, no question about that. No question at all.

  459. I’m thinking the next time MA Bliss Ninny starts crying about how mean people are on the Trib blogs I’m going to have to ask her if she’s sure it isn’t Duane in drag. 😉

  460. He’s nasty and she’s intentionally daft. What has the loyal opposition come to?

  461. Maybe the visited Mudpucky’s site so often that their brains melted…

  462. Granted, Greetings, it would be like they were being cared for by Dirty Harry himself, but he is a good man.

    I’m just sayin’ yer kids might like cigars and know how to play po ker or something when they come home;)

  463. “Unlike Pharisee, I’m not fighting to get INTO a religion, I’m fighting to stay OUT of one.”

    I’m already in a religion Dog. Gaining a place on the formal roles of a denomination is not trying to “get into a religion.”

  464. oooh boy! Hugh is back. Bring on the crazy ~~~

    So Hugh, have you had your magical underoos hand sewn for you, or did you order them from the catalog?

    C’mon now….don’t disappoint.

  465. Hugh

    “Gaining a place on the formal roles of a denomination is not trying to “get into a religion.”

    No its “Trying to get into the formal roles of a religion”

    Hmmm thats how I see it. Say, your blog is still up and your meeting time passed.

    Looks like you peed in the Pastors cornflakes.

  466. Texas mom

    LOL Polygamy, for Hugh, isnt about anything FLDS, its purely the fantasy. and one even he will acknowledge will never happen for him. errr to him.

    Lots of guys have fantasies, its a known phenomena!

  467. I don’t think Reformed congregations wear magic underwear (although I can never remember whether Hugh is a RCA or URCNA or CRC or PRCA or UCC or Presbyterian or Reformed Presbyterian… not that it matters).

    Hugh, how does your soul these days? And your relationship with the church?

  468. No funny undies. I’m OPC. I go every Sunday. My soul is God’s charge, and he keeps it.

  469. OK whats OPC? I know its something simple but what da hay?

    Omni-Present Christian?

    One Polygamist Centered?

    Old Peoples Court?

    One Pair Charley?

    Original Pentecostal Club?

  470. Glad to hear that, Hugh. The rest is chaff.

  471. If you are absolutely sure that you are saved, is that the only proof you need that you actually are?

  472. Betty, you might try rolling around the concept, “Faith IS the evidence…” That’s from Hebrews 11. Stamp, I supplied you with a convenient hypertext link. You could just try clicking on it.

  473. Orthodox Presbyterian Church. I am looking at its Confession and Catechism right now. Except I might look some more in the morning. I’ve never gotten past my headache.

    So goodnight, all.

  474. I tried to think of jokes based on OPC myself, but I took a wrong turn at rap songs and can’t think of any suitable for print.

  475. Betty, have a nice night.

  476. Oh, gosh, Hugh, I’ve never heard that concept before. You know down here in ole Virginy we just don’t get education like you clever fellows do up north. Why I try to read the Bible and my poor little head gets all flustered. It is just SOOOO sweet of you to try to educate me. Bless your heart.

  477. I cannot bless your heart. Pardon me if I don’t return the favor, that I cannot bestow.

  478. Oh, so its Omni Present Christion then! First swing!

    Say, how are they taking your blog? I mean, you say you are OPC, your blog says you arent.

    The theology of OPC is nowhere to be found on your site, and instead, is some thoughts that are rather disturbing, JMO, but doesnt it disturb the Pastor too?

    Mow, I realize there are pastors out there sinning and getting caught, to your enjoyment, but stttiiillll……

  479. Well then Hugh fire up the Mo Ho and drive it around the block and troll for plyg women!

  480. I really have to agree with Hugh; it’s a simple matter: “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son”

    If Hugh means it when he confesses his belief in Christ Jesus, he’s saved. Period. Amen. As spurious as I sometimes find his theology, there will be no theology test at the Pearly Gates. (Good thing, too, or I’d get lonely up there.)

    I love that chapter of Hebrews. It’s a great testimony to anyone who despairs. None of the Old Testament heroes Paul listed lived to see the promised of Messiah fulfilled, even though they were “commended through their faith.” But in the end, the promise was fulfilled, as it is in so many endeavors.

    Now I really am going to bed.

  481. FLDS Texas, trying to out anonymous posters is improper netiquette.

  482. Duane, trolling is also improper netiquette. Hasn’t stopped you, has it? You don’t want to be embarassed, don’t be so cruel and asinine.

  483. I guess the alternative to outing is banning, along with outing.

    Remember, Lester even got an article written about him?

    And they arent outing your personal info, just the fact you were trolling.

    Big difference, duane, but you missed, you struck out!

  484. Stamp, you posed as an FLDS member on Brooke’s blog “watching”, you claimed to be another person when you weren’t, that is trolling.

    Ladiesadie posed as “fla mom” and “flying free”, an escaped flds girl. Anonymous posters don’t assume other people’s personas, they could be anybody, hence the anonymous handle.

  485. Duane, don’t be stupid.

    Oh wait ……

  486. Actually duane, my persona on the Plural blaugh is known as “Strawman Sockpuppet” and was performed to highlight the rediculous arguements supporting FLDS view as well as blow smoke up Brookes Pro-plyg skirt.

    What YOU were doing is being a Meatpuppet.

  487. Duane,
    You got caught. You did something monumentally stupid, proved once and for all that you’re a lying sack of excrement, and you were outed for it. Get over it.

    Yeah, Stamp posts as Watching and pretended he/she was FLDS for quite some time — he/she didn’t fool anyone who was paying attention, though, did he/she? Perhaps that’s because Stamp was using a bit of overdramatic hyperbole, but wasn’t truly trying to deceive. You, on the other hand, CLEARLY wanted to make your hate look like something any anti-polygamist, or child abuse, would say.

    No one’s perfect, Duane, but if you bother to learn from your mistakes you might get a little closer. Quit snivilling and suck it up, man!

  488. Oh, and if you don’t like it that the admin at this site are willing to expose your deceit, maybe you shouldn’t practice it here. (I’m sure it’s too much to expect you to simply choose to be honest in general.)

    So, how’s that Lying for the Lord going for you?

  489. Rebeckah

    I think the one person I fooled was Brooke – she never deleted any of my comments until I gave that up and got down to brass tacks.

    Suddenly, she choked….. ACK not another flds naysayer! AAAHHH!!

    And your right – the true blue flds like pliggy pointed me out over and over.

    I never whined.

  490. I enjoy/enjoyed the posts made by the person posting as Watching.
    I don’t care if this person is a he or a she. I don’t care if this person was or is FLDS. The person posting has a sense of humor and has offered some great input.

    Hey Duane do you know if BillM knew Rod Parker before the Raid?

  491. If the YFZ was buying hay from those in Texas to feed those cows why is it that in all the photos that the Pilot took I don’t see any hay?

  492. Thanks Walton, its great knowing you have a fan or two out there!


    PS – Ya remember all my cattle calls:


    Ha ha – looks like he’s afraid to! At least until El Presidente WSJ steps down!

  493. I liked that crazy avatar of the goon hanging upside down with mouth agape and hair hanging.

    So apropos! Warren had all those people by the short hairs and they just kept worshipping him and sending him money!


  494. Walton

    Bill M knew a lot of attorneys before the rescue, though none could keep him out of prison.

    He showed up after words, he has only been to Utah once for the hearing,

    (and he alluded he was dissed by the suspecting flds locals – so no photo op thank you)

    and I hardly think Rod gives him the time of day.

    Only a smattering of people even post over there – he deletes all but the brownnosing posts.

  495. 🙂 I mean what I say Watching. You have such a way with words. You got your point across with some humor. Fast with the comebacks and shared a lot of info. I appreciated it all more than you will know.

    Keep on sharing.

  496. Just this one thread “Discussioh 10” has about 500 posts in 6 short days – probably more posts than on his entire site!

    And that goes for hugh 2.

  497. I remember when BillM had posted the Judges address and phone number on his site. Rod Parker was very casual about it all.

    Did Wally B. have connections in Florida?

  498. One more question and then I have to say good night.

    When a few members of the FLDS got caught with fake license plates did they ever find out where they got them from?

    I’ll check back Wed. night.

    Much thanks to everyone.

  499. THX Walton

    I have to admit my ulterior motive was to humor, cajole and slap upside the head the flds who still had their nose stuck on Warren.

    Well, the fat lady aint sung yet, but word is, a few folks have split off, and with new “Leadership” you can call that a split, I dunno, sounds like it to me, they are afraid to poke their head up itll get blasted by Warren and he still holds power amongst the certain fatefull faithful.

    I know that I support the folks who come to their senses and I hope they know I care – There are often mixed feelings but deep down I want to see whats best for them and for them to own their homes and break free of being a Hildale Hostage.

    They are at a crossroads, if they start toeing the line I think they can skate without too much more greif – if they continue to fight I think Wisan will accomodate them in litigating it to zero.

    Of course the bulk of the money goes to attorneys in that situation, and leaves the women and kids with less future – but what future is it to give the UEP to Warren?

    Thats just F’d up, what was Mark Shortfall THINKING!??

  500. Gotta run too, there is a sack with my name on it!

    Dont know about the fake plates, first Ive heard, But do you know Jay Beswick? once he emailed me a letter from Parker threatening him, and then he filed a police report!

    Perhaps extreme but the flds are known to make people paranoid lol especially if you are one of Warrens hostages.

    Thankfully, Warren is locked up for a long long, long long time!

  501. Walton: I am super busy at work and at home so have not been able to research it, however I remember two stories about flds and fake licenses. 1. An flds car dealer in Short Creek was busted for issuing some fake registations or something.
    2. There was a fake Indiana tribe called P…? Shell band in Utah. They were selling some fake stuff based on their soveriegn nation status. My memory is that a couple of flds members had the fake documents from the PS band of Indians. Hope someone else can fill in the details.

  502. Technically, Duane is both a troll and uses sockpuppets. He’s a troll in that he says things just to be inflammatory. Sockpuppets are where you use multiple handles in order to cause problems.

    FLDS Texas, trying to out anonymous posters is improper netiquette.

    No, exposing folks being sockpuppets is always acceptable, not to mention that sockpuppetry is often a banning offense Duane.

  503. I think if you look up “cognitive dissonance” in the dictionary you see a picture of Pharisee. The statement “I’m already in a church” should earn him a gold medal in the uneven bars in logical gymnastics.

    Just because they let you inside the door doesn’t mean you’re “in” the church.

    They don’t want you Pharisee. They’ve told you to renounce your heretical beliefs and you take to the internet to support them.

    Being a major heretic myself, I’m actually sympathetic. Hey Pharisee, I have a tee shirt with the word “HERETIC” on it. Want me to send it to you?

  504. Pharisee is a narcissist without a following. Annoying, but ultimately impotent. GFNY is a kinder person than I and is concerned about his search for salvation within an organized religion. I could give a rat’s rear end, but am sort of fascinated in the same way people slow down to see a wreck on the side of the road.



  506. Hugh wrote “I cannot bless your heart. Pardon me if I don’t return the favor, that I cannot bestow.”

    Clue fairy. When a Southern woman says “bless your heart” it is NOT a good thing. You should have read that whole post as being said with an upper class Southern accent dripping in vitriol.

  507. GFNY,

    The Bible also says that you work out your own salvation in trembling and fear.

    I’m sorry, but the concept that you are saved if you yourself believe that you are saved is one of the dumbest things religion has ever come up with and is a haven for every whackadoo in the world to abandon all responsibility for their own actions and wallow in self righteousness with absolutely no basis for their pride. Any one who has a car bumber sticker that says “I’m not perfect, just saved” gets a wide berth from me in traffic, cause I expect them to burn rubber trying to cut me off in a merge lane.

    One has to reconcile all the bits of Scripture together to get a clear picture, because they are talking about a subject matter that is not easily defined in words. Really believing in Christ and internalizing his words is one thing; getting a free pass for nothing and assuming that you are superior is something else again. Just declaring yourself saved no matter what stupid and destructive nonsense you do is incredible hubris, not faith, to me. But then, there are many things I might be in this life – Calvinist is not one of them.

  508. Dhell Pembina

    Oh here it is Walton, Chemist! The FLDS caught with fake registration had their cars impounded. Their little stab at living in the US, while trying to escape US law, failed!


    The Anti-Defamation League describes the “Little Shell Pembina Band” as an anti-government movement that claims ties to the Chippewas. The federal government has rejected its appeals for recognition.

    But that hasn’t stopped the Pembina band from offering, for a fee, fake license plates, driver licenses and vehicle registrations.

    During traffic stops, the Hildale residents read from a printed card that declared their sovereign status, said Larry Ball, southern region investigator for the Utah Motor Vehicle Division.

    The statement includes the following: “I give myself all rights entitled to a sovereign, including but not limited to the right to drive and travel. Anyone wishing me to give them my license for making any legal determinations for me are hereby declared to be incompetent by me and are now FIRED from making any legal determination for me.”

    A similar verse is read in court appearances.

    These so-called sovereign citizens have become more scarce since a few were packed off to jail or had their vehicles impounded, reports Hurricane City Police Chief Lynn L. Excell.

  509. TAMARAC, FL: In an unassuming strip plaza in the city of Tamarac, the quest for freedom attracts a global response.

    Over the past year and half, the ABC7 Whistleblower has learned, thousands of illegal immigrants have congregated on the doorstep of the business seeking legal status.

    And the people inside claim to sell it.

    For upwards of $1,500 to $2,000 a couple, illegal immigrants buy documents, ID cards and even driver’s licenses that supposedly make them lineal descendents of an Indian tribe known as the Little Shell Pembina Band.

    The notarized documents, obtained by ABC7, are signed by a chief and grant all tribal members the right not to pay taxes, freely hunt wherever they want, and exempt them from military service.

  510. Rebeckah – cross over from the plural blog -Apple valley comment

    Actually Warrens dictations include that both the UEP AND the people remaining in Shortcreek whom havent qualified for Zion are “Rejected of God”.

    This was echoed in Bruce Wisans “UEP propopsal response” as he copied that portion into the response as proof of Warrens meaning and intent.

  511. “During traffic stops, the Hildale residents read from a printed card that declared their sovereign status, said Larry Ball, southern region investigator for the Utah Motor Vehicle Division.”

    And herein we see the real problem, the root of the problem with fundamentalist Mormons. They are not Americans. They believe that they are legally sovereign and that we are some fake upstart government trying to put them down. THAT is the heart of the problem from which every other type of abuse springs. A communal narcissism if you will.

  512. “For upwards of $1,500 to $2,000 a couple, illegal immigrants buy documents, ID cards and even driver’s licenses that supposedly make them lineal descendents of an Indian tribe known as the Little Shell Pembina Band.”

    Now that’s sad.

  513. Thank You Betty!!

  514. Ron wrote “I think if you look up “cognitive dissonance” in the dictionary you see a picture of Pharisee. The statement “I’m already in a church” should earn him a gold medal in the uneven bars in logical gymnastics.”

    True. If he fully believed his own rationalizations, he would not need the endorsement and approval of other patriarchs.

  515. Another side note before I drop the topic…..I think we should leave the judgement to God. Any human who poses as an expert on that subject is IMHO, suspect as being a tool of the great Liar.

  516. Your welcome, chemist. Which one of my mental gems prompted your gratitude?

  517. Interesting tidbit, chemist, wish I could dig up more. Would P have been Paiute, or Paviotso??

  518. Betty: The information on the fake little shell band. I tried to answer Walton’s question strictly from memory, but could not recall the details on the flds-Little shell band tie in. Also, don’t have the time to research it now.

  519. Pembina??

  520. Stamp/Betty very interesting posts on the Pembina DMV and the Hildale residents embrace of all things anti-American. Back in the day the term was, as mentioned when Kevin Costner became a Sioux warrior in ,”Dances with Wolves”, given ‘turning injun’. The greater concern to me is this little band of renegade FLDS injuns is now becoming hunter gatherers and spreading out to other States in the Union. Schleicher County, Texas has been invaded with an organized and lawless FLDS band of fanatical marauders/believers intent on building their model Temple for the ‘EndTime’. More recently, rumors has it that a new injun chief has been covertly chosen and the FLDS Church band is under different guidance. What’s next for the Warrenites are they going to start wearing feathers in their hair?

  521. Before bands got federal recognition there where several very legitimate bands who did print their own insurance, plates etc, even passports, know of one in new York state. Haudenosse ( sp)
    BUT, never for sale to people who did not belong to the band.

  522. nev ver mind

  523. And herein we see the real problem, the root of the problem with fundamentalist Mormons. They are not Americans.

    While Mormonism in general suffers from its historical antagonism to a secular government, the Little Shell Pembina Band is nothing more than a retread by right wing militia groups in the U.S.

    In the 1990’s Texas had a group calling itself the “Republic of Texas” saying that they were their own separate government and generally causing a bunch of havoc.

    It makes sense that the FLDS would adopt this since they consider themselves separate from the evil gentile government as well as the wacky connections between Mormonism and Native Americans.

  524. Well, they aren’t the only nutcases in the US, that’s for sure.

  525. I tell you Betty – buy Alcoa. The demand for tin-foil hat is going through the roof.

  526. Ron, Sorta puts a whole new twist to the trust name of ‘Texas Heritage Trust’, does it mean the Texas of the Lone Star Republic, The Confederate Texas or the State of Texas only the Darth Prophet knows for sure. How much chance that the FLDS members are soon to ally with any of the Texas for Texans TeaParty types?

  527. Ron, maybe aluminum foil feathers would help receive the special messages from space? The high forehead hair wave would act like a satellite dish and the tin-foil feathers would tune-in the revelations. The Darth Prophet could have a Chiefs headset of aluminum feathers that receive all across the Milky Way.

  528. A post from hugh on an article on Jeffs which PHDAAA decided to complain about.

    “Child-Raping Church Leader Warren Jeffs Being Force-Fed”

    by neilkatz2000 August 10, 2009 5:05 PM EDT
    To Farver4girls:

    Warren Jeffs was convicted in 2007 of being an accomplice to rape, in that particular case, by marrying a 14-year-old girl to her 19-year-old cousin, allegedly one of many underage marriages performed by Jeffs.

    Can the girls in FLDS refuse? Do they have choice? That’s a much debated topic. Certainly a jury didn’t think so, neither does the law.

    Also, we have seen photographs of Jeffs kissing a 12-year-old girl he reportedly married. We interviewed the girl’s brother, who, though he was a member of FLDS, was quite disturbed by the photo of his prophet kissing his young sibling.

    Do we have proof Jeffs had sex with his own child brides? No, but he was certainly convicted of helping others rape theirs.

    –Neil Katz, Producer CBS News

  529. “Just this one thread ‘Discussioh 10’ has about 500 posts in 6 short days – probably more posts than on his entire site!

    And that goes for hugh 2.”/

    Stamp, I conciously limit comments. Comments do not equal wide reader/viewership.

    “Hugh wrote ‘I cannot bless your heart. Pardon me if I don’t return the favor, that I cannot bestow.’

    Clue fairy. When a Southern woman says ‘bless your heart’ it is NOT a good thing. You should have read that whole post as being said with an upper class Southern accent dripping in vitriol.”

    And when a Southern Man pretends to misunderstand and not take offense, he is being a gentleman. Betty, some of my roots in the South are so deep that I spend part of my youth loving, growing up with, and being cared for by an ex slave. Her name was Woody, she lived to be over 100. I still miss her.

    “I really have to agree with Hugh; it’s a simple matter: ‘Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son’

    If Hugh means it when he confesses his belief in Christ Jesus, he’s saved. Period. Amen. As spurious as I sometimes find his theology, there will be no theology test at the Pearly Gates. (Good thing, too, or I’d get lonely up there.)

    I love that chapter of Hebrews. It’s a great testimony to anyone who despairs. None of the Old Testament heroes Paul listed lived to see the promised of Messiah fulfilled, even though they were ‘commended through their faith.’ But in the end, the promise was fulfilled, as it is in so many endeavors.

    Now I really am going to bed.”

    Now there’s a Lady. Thanks NY.

  530. “I say, in the name of the Lord, there is no underage marriage, in celestial marriage. God has the right to rule. The Lord had me take these two underage girls on purpose, to show that I and we, this people, are with Him, with God, not fearing man”.
    Prophet Warren S. Jeffs quote from 2003.


    “Do you want to know what is our Constitution, what [are] our laws, and who are our lawgivers”?
    “The Lord is our King, the Lord is our Judge, the Lord is our Lawgiver, and He will rule over us”.

    Prophet John Taylor from Journals of Discourses 7:323.


    ” I told him about those men that were being brought into trial[AZ] for marrying so-called underage girls. The ones that were arrested I said, ‘The general council is to answer them nothing. Do not testify in your own trial. If you testify, you could be found a traitor against God and Priesthood’.
    Prophet Warren S. Jeffs dictations Thurs. August 25, 2005.

  531. Stamp

    Maybe FLDS Texas can call that producer and get the IP address of PhDAAA, something tells me it may be someone we know.

  532. Geeee, Hugh it’s a good thing that you share with us whom you think is a lady and the inference that the rest are then not. For your information the ladies that post here are all considered Ladies even the one’s that dare to oppose a Biblically Superior Blowhard, like yourself.

    I am reminded of Mark Twain’s admonition that likening someone to be just like a Jackass, isn’t particularly fair to the beast of burden that is unfairly dragged into the comparison.

    Don’t bother to post a response on Hugh’s blog he keeps his thumb firmly placed on his ‘edit’ button as his own version of free speech. Hugh is a big believer in ‘Free Speech’, namely his own and any lady he chooses to beneficently acknowledge, what an endearing Monarch.

  533. Ron,

    PHDAAA stuck pretty much to the trib boards as I recall, but yes he is a hard core apologist, whom I suspect belongs to another sect.

    Speaking of which, heres a good one for Hugh. He may not like comments to draw discussion, but this boards reader- viewership is growing rapidly from what I’ve been told.

    Personally, I think its the people. And they allow all voices that debate within reason.

    See this guy, a Utah Plyg child molester just died in prison:

  534. If Duane’s post as “Anon” on the other thread has been deleted, I am sorry. I think it should stand exposed for the venal bit of work it was.

    Of course, as Rebeckah once said about troll-dom, it’s a bad idea to leave scurrilous literature lying around where innocent passers-by can run into it.

    Rebeckah, I promised to address your message from yesterday. I will start by noting that all mankind has sought the answer to the question of “Who made the world (and, by extension, me)?” Its commonality justifies it. We ask because we can, and that’s amazing in itself.

    In the question lie two other questions:

    1. “Does my life have meaning beyond the experience I’m having here?”
    2. “Is there anything standing between me and the great cosmic forces of the universe?

    If you are familiar with the story of the plagues in Exodus, you know that the state of Pharaoh’s heart is described in three different ways:

    “So Pharaoh’s heart was hard… “

    “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart…”

    “But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again and hardened his heart, he and his servants.”

    Which is a little ambiguous for deciding what God thinks about free will or whether he in fact directed Pharaoh’s heart to do anything.

    But context is key. To his people, Pharaoh was divine and his heart was pure. The Egyptians believed that the gods weighed the heart against a feather after death to measure sin. The long see-saw of the plagues is God telling mankind he has weighed Pharaoh’s heart and found it wanting, and that Pharaoh is not a god but a sinful mortal.

    I have to address the last part of your question later, lest I get no work done whatsoever today.

  535. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son

    Wonderful thought for the day. You just condemned 2/3 of the world’s population that aren’t Christian. What are they condemned to? Fire and brimstone? Slavery and domination by those who “aren’t condemned?”

    If Hugh means it when he confesses his belief in Christ Jesus, he’s saved. Period.

    Why are you here then? Why try to save any 12 year old from being married to a 52 year old guy? If it’s all going to be sorted out by the Big Sky Daddy, then why should you care? Besides if Sky Daddy is in control then isn’t this all a part of his divine plan? Free Will? You mean an all powerful Sky Daddy gave a bunch of little peons the authority to totally thwart his divine plan?

    I’m sorry, the idea that you can close your eyes, tap your ruby slippers, and say “Praise Jesus” is nothing more than a slippery slope of moral relativism. Add to that the condemnation of “the other” and you’ve got the perfect recipe for just the kind of mischief we see going on all the time today.

  536. No problem, caljim. I am not upset with GFNY, cause I know I can argue with her and we can agree to disagree. I feel disgust when I read most of Hugh’s writing, and a sense of sadness that such a sharp mind can so successfully blind itself to it’s own machinations, but I do not grant him enough power over me that I would be upset by his judgment. As I said above, I leave judgment to God. To me, he’s just one more tin foil hat in the vast internet world.

  537. Oh, and I’m not going to post to or read his blog anymore. He takes his page hits WAY too seriously.

  538. Thanks for the story Ron,, geez seems Utah is just crawling with Polygamists sects, luckily this one was put in prison for 20yrs!!

  539. Betty

    What gets me is the “I am Othodox Presbyterian, with a mean streak of Polygany that just wont quit”!

    DECIDE ALREADY! Well, I think he has. Its unfulfilled Polygamy for him, Church attendance behavior to stay with his wife.

    What a cornfused soul.

  540. “You mean an all powerful Sky Daddy gave a bunch of little peons the authority to totally thwart his divine plan?”

    Yes, She did.

    Just like in the flds — you’re a young woman married to an old fart, you’re supposed to love him and honor him, you have no choice…

    With Sky Mommy, you have a choice. She only wants us if we come of our own free will.

    Like Santa Claus, she knows when you’ve been naughty, she knows when you’ve been nice….

  541. Dog, ahem, I found that one!

  542. “I’m sorry, the idea that you can close your eyes, tap your ruby slippers, and say “Praise Jesus” is nothing more than a slippery slope of moral relativism. Add to that the condemnation of “the other” and you’ve got the perfect recipe for just the kind of mischief we see going on all the time today.”

    Well put, Ron. My point exactly.

  543. Betty/GFNY Grace, intellect and delightsome perspectives is an awesome feminine combination, that I find very alluring once expressed, please continue to grant us the pleasure of reading your most pleasurable posts.

  544. “Unlike Pharisee, I’m not fighting to get INTO a religion, I’m fighting to stay OUT of one.”

    I’m already in a religion Dog. Gaining a place on the formal roles of a denomination is not trying to “get into a religion.”
    Awah, so you aint crap if not on the formal roles??? LOL
    POOR hugh!!
    Yeah Yeah, we all know Hugh Reformed Orthodoxy thingy with a left at calvin and his (tulip) and Martin Luther as a side dish!!


    Laughing. Maybe he should try Anabaptist.

  546. Oh, I’m not going to stop posting here. I just don’t want to raise the Modern Pharisee ticker. And besides, avoidance of that nastiness is good for my own mental health.

  547. HA!!! now that would be funny Betty!!!

  548. I was thinking of the Munster (please imagine an umlaut) rebellion of van der leyden.

  549. Sigh, I still haven’t answered Rebeckah’s question and now I have to answer Ron’s too. Won’t happen now. It’s the middle of the work day.

    But I do want to point out that I don’t own any ruby slippers, although I did once, when I had a dark burgundy silk slip dress with a matching velveteen bolero jacket. I do have a pair of Miu Miu slippers with a Louis heel, if they count. Gorgeous; miserably uncomfortable.

  550. I want to go back to an earlier discussion on bigamy and it’s definitions. I have read many personal stories about a married couple who moved slowly towards fundamentalism, after many years, sometimes decades of marriage. Then the husband announces that he is taking a plural wife and the legal wife balks. He goes ahead. To me, he is guilty of bigamy because he original signed a mutual exclusive marriage contract with his first wife and is now altering that contract with out her permission. He is injuring her emotionally, socially and financially. He should be prosecuted. I have read that same story in variations from Islamic, Christian and LDS women. I would love to see one of those women press charges. But often they feel shamed by the whole thing and just file for divorce. It gets handled like a normal divorce with adutlery thing, when in my opinion, it’s a breach of contract thing.

  551. Unless they put ruby’s on flip flops,,, Im out of luck with slippers myself !!! Cause thats all I wear, LOL

  552. yuhuh!!! Betty is correct!!

  553. See this guy, a Utah Plyg child molester just died in prison:

    Stamp said this on August 12, 2009 at 11:55 AM

    Stamp, what you failed to add was that this Salt Lake Tribune article on polygamy was NOT written by the “SLT beat polygamy reporter” Brooke Adams. It was written by Lindsay Whitehurst. And Ms Whitehurst kept referring to this Shreeve guy as the leader of a CULT!!!!!

    See? the SLT really can tell a story accurately and call a spade a spade (CULT) when the right reporter tells the story honestly.

  554. Hugh has a point. Seems he, Brooke, Bill and regina have all conspired to shut down debate and conversation on their blaughs.

    So they arent really Blogs, they are just self – admiration societies.

    They sit around imagining what each other would have to say about things. Over at Regina’s Blog, they are still talker, errrr thinking about Jasons wedding.

    I saw cobwebs.

  555. Thats true, she used the “Cult” word!

    Well, Brooke is in Calamity City on her best kiss the cult members behavior, hoping for a hint on who the new Puhbah is.

    Well they aint talking, they know they cant trust two-faced Brooke!

    She went to Hildale and only came back with a slushy!

  556. Brooke is off having slushys in Hildale,,, LOL maybe she will join Flds while she is there??? She would fit right in, LOL

  557. Hugh has posted, without owning up to the fact that he was issued a lawful marriage license for a monogamous relationship, that his wife agrees with him that polygamy was a Biblical practice. Seems he thinks, although he doubts that he ever would begin to practice polygamy, again, that his wife might allow it if certain provisos were met.

    Had Emma Smith taken Joseph Smith out into a public Courtroom when he began to violate his monogamous marriage to her, alot of information and facts would have been brought to light for the Public to have known and judge accordingly. Alas, Emma chose to keep her betrayal private and quietly ended her marriage and died believing that Joseph was a prophet. She, also, held that her son Joesph Smith III, Jr. held the keys, given to him by his father, and helped to found the church known today as Community of Christ (aka – Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of latter Day Saints [RLDS]).

    Be careful Hugh depending on how your wife reacts to your renewed/renegotiated wedding vow you may be the founder of two new movements. One that endorses Vermont polygamy and one that makes a public outcry against Vermont polygamy.

  558. CaJim

    Hughs wife will let him get another -IF AND WHEN HE MAKES TEN MILLION DOLLARS.

    Fat chance, huh?

  559. Sorry I don’t keep up with everything, but am I gathering that Duane was arguing with himself as an anonymous poster? So that he could rebut his own posts?

  560. Ron said….I’m sorry, the idea that you can close your eyes, tap your ruby slippers, and say “Praise Jesus” is nothing more than a slippery slope of moral relativism. Add to that the condemnation of “the other” and you’ve got the perfect recipe for just the kind of mischief we see going on all the time today.

    No Ron you just have to say nine little words “Forgive me, I believe in the name of Jesus.” I think one of the thieves on the cross said less.

    Since God sacrificed himself for our sins, he can make the rules and they are pretty simple a child can understand it.

  561. For Pete’s sake…is this Bible Study or FLDS news center?


  562. FLDS news, or supposed ta be!

  563. (Sorry, TexasMom, but I don’t stay on task for anyone. Skip over it; everyone else will.)

    Imagine, for a moment, that you have died and been led by Anubis to judgment. The fourteen gods of Egypt are watching. On one side of the scale is your heart, and on the other, a single feather of Ma’at. If your heart is as light as this feather, you start your journey to the East. If your heart is heavier, your soul will be devoured by Ammit and you will be condemned to eternal restlessness. (If you think Judeo-Christianity is tough, check out the 42 principles of Ma’at.)

    How much sin does it take to make the human heart heavier than a feather? And have you exceeded that? I’m afraid I did so before breakfast.

    I said earlier that one of the questions implied in creation was whether anything stands between us and the vast cosmic forces around us. If God is the force that calls order out of chaos, then his doing so is a form of rule (see William Blake’s “Ancient of Days for a visual of this).

    Oddly, judgment is another of those constructs upon which all humanity seems to agree, which has to be given some credence on that basis alone. Is such judgment wrong? That’s about as useful a question as asking whether the Nile has a right to exist. You live; you die. You screw up; your mates make sure you die sooner.

    But to say that God condemns souls to hell because they don’t follow Jesus is a serious misreading of theology. In the Bible, God is the impartial judge who hears our cases, the magisterium who assures that the planets turn in their courses and the heavens stay aloft. As did Osiris, he expects souls as light as feathers, he has provided an advocate in Jesus, whom you may or may not accept; that’s your choice. It is Satan who acts in this divine courtroom as the accuser, a role articulated from Genesis to Revelation.

    I lost two siblings to accidents when we were children. To me, accepting Christ was an implicit condemnation of them, because they were ‘unsaved’. This was actually the same response as yours, Ron, although it was personal rather than universal. It’s like leaving the Titanic and knowing others will drown. Many of us would rather stay with the sinking ship out of loyalty to our mates.

  564. BTW, I also think polygamy “was a Biblical practice.” Meaning it was practiced during the Biblical era, nothing more—certainly not that God condoned it.

    People hear what they want to, don’t they?

  565. Ive never once believed or seen scriptures when God every refused a child into his kingdom when they died.

  566. I don’t think a human can fanthom what All Knowing, All seeing really means! Omnipotent, omnipresent, omniphisent, are pretty indescribible in human terms.
    Therefore, second guessing God and what he does, or will do, is pretty stupid on a human being’s part…

  567. Oh, DD, I agree with you and as an adult I think that God’s accommodation with souls is far more merciful than we can imagine. I’m just saying what I felt at the time.

  568. Your right although not called Polygamy biblically, thats what it was in the Old Testament… God never agreed with it, told people to practice it… But God will certainly allow humans to make fools out of ourselves, and suffer the consequences when we screw up.

  569. he can make the rules and they are pretty simple a child can understand it.

    Really? Apparently Pharisee believes the rules include polygyny. What about shellfish? Abomination or not?

    Then of course there’s the issue of infant genocide. Apparently that’s another one of those simple rules. After all God did tell Saul to deal with the Amalekite problem by “Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.

    While we’re on the subject faith or works? Freedom from the law or every “jot and tittle” is still there?

  570. Cement: Who really knows what duane was trying to do?
    A repost from a different article:
    I would go further than deleting duane’s offensive posts, which are 90%, of his posts, and pemanently ban his ISPs from this blog.
    It is telling that the flds supporters practice deceit, lying, etc just like the flds do.
    Are you listening flds administrator? Can we finally get duane’s filth permanently banned from here?? I will send Brooke an email suggesting that she also ban deci from her blog and the SLT comment board.

    ale wife said this on August 12, 2009 at 1:12 AM

  571. Ron,

    I’m a gentile, not a proselyte to the faith of the Hebrews, not a resident of Israel. I can eat Lobster and Clams.

    However, if you knew what you were spouting off about, you’d know that in Acts 15, the Gentile Church is directed to refrain from Sexual Immorality in the context of the Law of Moses.


  572. ale wife

    As badly as Duane misbehaved this time, I’m still wishy washy on banning him.

  573. Alewife, I continue to hope he’ll see the error of his ways, although my optimism is waning. But then again, I never expected to hear that the word “cult” was printed in the Salt Lake Tribune in re: polygamy.

    I hope he realizes that trick won’t work again.

  574. Ron,
    At least we agree that his behavior has been BAD. If this were his first instance of bad behavior I would be inclined to agree with you on not banning him. However, this is one of many bad behaviors from him.

  575. Hugh

    “(O)ne jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled” AND “whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you” means that you’re picking and choosing your theology according to what suits you.

    Then again that’s why the OPC calls you a heretic, isn’t it?

  576. Stamp,

    BTW, I USED to have wide open comments on my blog, but, people abused the privilege and so I moderated them, requiring that the blog poster have a registered ID, and that I review the comments. I dumped on Ron twice today as he went into “Rant” mode and I’ve posted probably 95% of what a “Blogger” poster by the name “Jam Inn” posts. I believe “Jam” posts here, but under a different alias.

    I’m 55 and have had a varied career. At one time I was a dial in talk show host’s engineer and call screener. You don’t gain audience by airing everyone’s ideas. Talk shows don’t thrive on callers, subject matter for successful talk shows generally center around what the host wants to talk about. I’ve taken that to heart, and use it as a guiding principle behind my blog. You’re welcome to comment, but if the comments don’t help the blog move along, they’re probably not going to get published.

    I’m quite liberal in what I think would “help my blog along” and publish many good opposing views. I just don’t publish anonymous and/or irresponsible dreck.

  577. Ron,

    So how do you propose that I follow a law directed at a Levite, let’s say, the law that directs him to marry only a virgin of Israel?

    If I am Boaz, may I marry Ruth?

  578. 6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ[a] we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

    Act 15 is talking about circumsion of the Heart, not the genitles Hugh.

  579. *sighs*

    This might be better in another place.
    The sacrifice of Jesus the Christ fulfilled and overcame the law.
    432.Romans 7:6
    But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.

  580. Here’s another Puzzler for you Ron, since you seem to think that a law for one person is a law for another, (please remember I do not think scripture is “egalitarean”). What do you think of this:

    “Ye shall not eat of any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God.”

  581. Rattle,

    So, how do you read the letter of Acts 15? Were the gentiles to abide by their notions of what constituted “Sexual morality/immorality?”

  582. God considered having more than one wife sexually immorality hugh. He said so in Leviticus, he said it to King Solomon, he said it to King David, and Abraham.
    Christ says it in the New Testament.

  583. Hugh

    While it’s clear to me, I know you’ll disagree that the Bible presents both direct contradictions as well as irresolvable paradoxes. It also shows clear schisms between the followers of Jesus and clear loosening of the rules to “sell” to the Roman and Greek gentiles that dominated during this time.

    Obviously a faith that required every male convert to get the end of his penis wacked off would not have become a major movement. So, people pick and choose their theology. That’s what you’re fighting for now.

  584. BTW,

    The referenced passage of Acts 15 is addressed to the Gentiles:

    “That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.”

  585. Ron, Paul answered your question about the law thoroughly in 1 Cor. 10 when he mused that not everything is beneficial or constructive, even when it’s permissible. As for Hugh’s interpretation of what was meant in Acts 15, it’s wrong. Full stop.

    Hugh, I need to speak directly to your heart. Whether or not you succeed at your blog is not due to your skills as a talk-show host. It also has no bearing on your worth. To aspire to something you’re not (a black-gowned, bearded, thundering church patriarch) is really a rejection of the gift of unfettered, absolute love, because it implies that what you ARE is not worthy of love. And I reject that categorically.

    Have you considered that God stops you from succeeding as a spokesman for polygamy, because he loves you and doesn’t want you to be end up as degraded as Warren Jeffs or Tony Alamo? Have you considered that submission might mean simply resting in the Lord and quieting your mind?

    I am fairly certain that my view on my own church’s troubles is the correct one. But that didn’t mean that my protestations ever did one damned thing to advance the kingdom of God. In fact, they did the opposite, setting people against each other, causing anger and division. Worse, they made me a person I disliked, who was hated by others. Our job is to be exactly the reverse of that, and when we sow discord and division among believers we need to stand back and question ourselves, seriously.

  586. Ron, you don’t know the Bible well enough to say that, and Dog? It’s Deuteronomy. I’d say you don’t know the passage well enough to tell me what it says, since you don’t know where it is.

  587. Hugh

    I want you to know that the irony is never lost on me that we’re brothers in heresy.

  588. Ron, the joke is that all of Christendom took up the practice of circumcision anyway, despite that.

  589. New York,

    To carry on this conversation with any home of real communication, you really ought to email me. Don’t worry, I won’t “out” you or publish anything without your permission. I’ve now got three thoughts being discussed with persons of varying scriptural knowledge in a hostile forum. I’m not going to be able to keep up.

  590. As for your unclean food law, Hugh:

    In Acts, Peter … fell into a trance;

    11 and he beholdeth the heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending, as it were a great sheet, let down by four corners upon the earth:

    12 wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts and creeping things of the earth and birds of the heaven.

    13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill and eat.

    14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common and unclean.

    15 And a voice came unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, make not thou common.

    16 And this was done thrice: and straightway the vessel was received up into heaven.

    Voila. Ditch the law and the “unclean” food laws.

  591. Matthew 19
    1 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these sayings, that He departed from Galilee and came to the region of Judea beyond the Jordan. 2 And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them there.
    3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”
    4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made[a]them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’[b] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?[c] 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
    7 They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”
    8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality,[d] and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”
    10 His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”

  592. I think you see here, Christ again says, One man and One wife Hugh.

  593. LOL, “HOME” = “hope”

  594. Dog, no, he doesn’t. I could suggest a forum where you and I might talk about that.

  595. Hugh,

    I want you to know I’ve just visited your VP blog for the first time. That was probably enough for me.

    I read your reply to a very intelligent post which says, “I don’t think that women should have the right to divorce, I don’t think scripture grants that right to them. That’s the point about acceptable polygyny. What is adultery for a woman, is not adultery for a man. The sin of adultery is not committed against a woman, but only against men, and against God”.

    I told her, “Just got home and checked it out. OMG! And to think people have actually looked at me like I’m wearing a tin foil hat when I tell them this is the greatest threat to the rights and freedom of women we have ever faced in this country. I guess I need to learn to be subtle, er…like Hugh here”.

    I’m not going to discuss religion with you, Hugh, because you use it to advocate gross abuse and discrimination against half the population of the world.
    I told a friend:

  596. Hugh, I will never publish my email address publicly, but I will write you if you give me yours. It is not that this conversation about verses isn’t useful, but it’s completely separate from what I am talking about.

  597. Hugh

    How in the F*** do you now exactly how much Bible I know? They might have lots of dust, but I’ve got a whole shelf of commentaries and concordances. I’ve got 3 different printed translations as well as a many others on CD-ROM.

    You just happen to be a narcissistic know-it-all blow hard who thinks he knows more than the experts in the denomination he so desperately wants to join who are currently telling him to f*** off.

  598. 15 Then the Pharisees went and plotted how they might entangle Him in His talk. 16 And they sent to Him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that You are true, and teach the way of God in truth; nor do You care about anyone, for You do not regard the person of men. 17 Tell us, therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?”
    18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, “Why do you test Me, you hypocrites? 19 Show Me the tax money.”
    So they brought Him a denarius.
    20 And He said to them, “Whose image and inscription is this?”
    21 They said to Him, “Caesar’s.”
    And He said to them, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” 22 When they had heard these words, they marveled, and left Him and went their way.

    Hugh being a pharisee isn’t a good thing!!

  599. No, being a pharisee is NOT a good thing.

    Hugh, you may write to GFNY at my email address,
    lt289 @ yahoo dot com
    and I will forward it to her.

  600. Boots, Hugh has hand picked scripture he believes agrees with his personal doctrine.
    God never said, go and marry many wives… Moses gave the decree of divorce to Israel because their hearts were hardened.
    Christ said, divorce can only happen if adultry happens, and then if you remarry, you are an adultrer to.

  601. DD

    You have to understand Pharisee. I’ve read his post on why he adopted that name. Considering the position he’s in vis a vis the church he’s trying to join, it’s an apt label.

  602. 34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
    37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[d] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[e] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

  603. My dear friend, TexasRattle, thank you.

    By the way, do you guys think we’ve lost TexasMom yet?

  604. Hugh, these are the two commandments I myself follow! If you follow these two,,, you are following the law,and wont commit adultry, murder, or have grave images, or idols.

  605. Hugh

    Well, posting a blog that supports heinous scts, like child molestation, will certainly garner some angry posts.

    Thats why all the ones who are proponents of that lifestyle are forced to audit every post

    No, I wont post on your site, I wouldnt even try, there are other venues that arent cencored so heavily.

    I have even quit reading Brookes blog, its stale, not much new. She killed it.

    Yeah it got heated at times but who wants to read just a handful of plyg brownnosers?

    Thats not a discussion, its a self admiration society.

    Boards like this one and Blues will record the discussion and the end results of the trials.

  606. texasrattle

    Regardless of Peter’s revelation, you still can’t get around the Big Kahuna and his statement about “not one jot or title.” After all, the law is the law.

    Now all you menstruating women – back into the red tent – ye unclean winches.

  607. New York, mine is my name, all run together, no breaks, at gmail dot com. No big secret.

  608. Poor TexasMom.

    Maybe we need a comment section purely for theological discussion.

    Deputydog, Jesus only gave his followers ONE commandment:

    John 13:34:

    34 A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; even as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

    That’s it. The only one.

  609. “Sorry I don’t keep up with everything, but am I gathering that Duane was arguing with himself as an anonymous poster? So that he could rebut his own posts?”

    Duane posted two posts as “Anonymous”. One was an excerpt of an interview with Buster Johnson (I think that’s the last name) and Duane added comments into the interview saying things like “Polygamists are no longer worthy of being treated with basic human dignity…” or something like that. His second anonymous post was even worse, in my book, as he used it to attack PlygKid personally. One of the other posters here suggested it was Duane who made both posts, Admin looked into it and confirmed it, Duane started whining about Admin displaying poor “netiquette”.

    Needless to say, he’s recieved no sympathy here.

  610. I’d be happy to participate in a “theology section” but I’m not going to spend a lot of time discussing things like “Is the Bible True?”

  611. Ron, you are mistaken. I’m not going to argue with you about it.

  612. 23 The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, 24 saying: “Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.”
    29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God[b] in heaven.

  613. 13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.[c]
    15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
    16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’ 17 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies[d] the gold? 18 And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’ 19 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? 20 Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. 21 He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells[e] in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.

  614. Rebeckah

    In my book, sockpuppetry is pretty bad. However, given the context and the very personal attack on plygkid, it was low down and scummy.

    I don’t harshly judge Duane too much since he’s sort of a 12 year old in an adult’s body.

  615. 16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’ 17 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies[d] the gold? 18 And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’ 19 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? 20 Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. 21 He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells[e] in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
    23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
    25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.[f] 26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

  616. 27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
    29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’
    31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

  617. So, Hugh have you talked with enough posting personalties to realize that this’ Fldstexas’ blog is bona-fide and the counter is undoubtably valid? Are you still convinced that the hit count here can’t possibly be true and some unseen way it’s being manipulated?

  618. Wenches, Ron. It’s wenches. Not Winches. Winches are to haul dumasses’ vehicles out of the creek when they try to cross the flooded road.

  619. Ron, you are mistaken. I’m not going to argue with you about it.

    Nor do I expect you to since you accept it on “faith.” You have cover for your position on food since you have the Big Kahuna speaking in Mark 7:19 about foot going not into the heart but into the belly.

    Since I couldn’t get my wife to go into the red tent, I adopted the red chair that she must sit on during that time of the month. After all, I could never sit on something that was unclean.

  620. Just so you folks know why I picked the blogging name I did:

    “Ok, ok, it’s partly an attention getting device. Here’s the logic behind it. In their day it was the Pharisees that believed in the Resurrection. They were the most “Theologically Correct” adherents to the faith of the Hebrews commonly known today as Judaism.

    Most don’t know it but the only sect that is mentioned as carrying over into early “Christianity” (which wasn’t known as Christianity until it spread to the gentiles) were the Pharisees. Paul continued to claim long after his conversion not that he used to be a Pharisee, but that he was a Pharisee.

    With that in mind it would make sense that if we truly reformed, we’d end up being most like the Pharisees theologically. Obviously there were excesses and hypocrisies among them. I most certainly don’t advocate returning to their micro managing interpretive rules.”

  621. I TRIED to go in the red tent but my family keeps whining for me to go home and cook dinner and do laundry and stuff. Frankly, I could use the rest!


  622. Ron, you know what I’d like to do with your chair?

  623. OK GrannyToad – I’ll remember by saying that I drag my wench by hooking her to my winch.

  624. Now Texasrattle


  625. Btw, the “red tent” is fictional.

    Was a good book though. Deputydog turned me onto it.

  626. Visitors yesterday here at the ‘Fldstexas’ exceeded 1,500+ hits and as of right now it’s North of 700+ hits. Sorry, Hugh you seem to have been eclipsed as the authority center for FLDS Church news, data and discussions.

  627. Asking forgiveness, as suggested by Anon above, is different from just claiming that you are saved. It implies that you can be wrong, in fact, have been wrong and you sincerely long to remove from your life whatever it is that keeps you from God. If by ‘faith’ you mean that longing to unite with God, then we agree. If by ‘faith’ you mean that you think you are right and everyone else is chaff, then I think you have no real faith.

  628. Sin is separation from God.

  629. Yeah, I liked the red tent also. There was old testament uncleanness about menstruating, though. And when I was a kid, I used to work on the altar on Saturday. They let me put up the flowers and altar cloths and stuff….until I hit puberty. Then I was unclean. Had to get someone else – I was not allowed to walk up there, even when I was not menstruating. They tell me the Catholic Church ha changed. LOL.

  630. Absolutely agree, texasrattle.

  631. GFNY said: “By the way, do you guys think we’ve lost TexasMom yet?”

    no, no….I’ve had a lot of laundry to do today. Besides, if I ever feel…er…*miffy* about a preponderance of King James being flung about….I just read it aloud with my best Monty Python accent. makes everything all better 😉

    btw, I spent two-ish years on a forum that almost solely discussed religion — including Islam, Buddhism, Judaism…well ALL the isms — and a serious contingent of Atheists.

    I mean no offense – but the debates here are less compelling reading and frankly it’s a case of “been there, bought the t-shirt”….But don’t let me rain on your parade ~~

    carry on, carry on 🙂

  632. Yeah, I liked the red tent also. There was old testament uncleanness about menstruating, though. And when I was a kid, I used to work on the altar on Saturday. They let me put up the flowers and altar cloths and stuff….until I hit puberty. Then I was unclean. Had to get someone else – I was not allowed to walk up there, even when I was not menstruating. They tell me the Catholic Church ha changed. LOL.

    Geez, I never thought of this. That’s why there’s all those post-menopausal women on Altar Guild.

  633. Yup. And they say they’re not pagan.

  634. I mean no offense – but the debates here are less compelling reading and frankly it’s a case of “been there, bought the t-shirt”….But don’t let me rain on your parade ~~

    I don’t generally engage in these debates since I think it’s almost always pointless.

    I just try to find the humor in it. Geez, if I ever told my wife she was “unclean” I’d be on the couch for, well, probably until Jesus returns.

  635. mmmmm. Mint and anise and cumin.

  636. According to Scripture Hugh, the pharisees were narcissitic blowhards, who stood around damning people for not following the “law” and yet they didn’t follow it either! Except when in the public..

  637. Hey Ron,

    I should revise my “less compelling” statement. The debates included many religions…thus making the topics broader and more informative.

    No individual insult intended. promise.

  638. DD

    Ouch. I think I was collateral damage to that bomb.

  639. If anyone, and I mean Any human being could follow the law to the letter, there would have been NO REASON for Christ to have been crucifieid!

  640. TexasMom, I understand, Im just tired of people saying Polygamy was OKAY biblically ,, and it was NOT! according to God himself

  641. Rattle…hey Rattle….it just rained 2 drops!!!!! I counted them.

  642. It rained here for 30 seconds last night!! by the time I got out the door to watch it, it had stopped,, LOL

  643. DAMN, TexasMom! I want one of ’em!

  644. Hey DD,

    No sweat. I agree with the need to speak out against using the bible to justify criminal acts. I’m pleased there are so many wise and willing folks here doing the job. 🙂

  645. Texasmom

    None taken for sure. I think everyone here knows we’re actually wandering far, far off topic.

    To me, it’s all rather funny. I really enjoy Texasrattle; however apparently I must have really annoyed her today. I never thought she was serious about sticking my red chair where the sun never shines.

  646. bwahahaha….She’s a tough cookie Ron, I wouldn’t mess with her.

  647. Well, not to beg the question, but I think most of us agree that polygamy is abusive, even if we don’t come to that conclusion by “the Bible tells me so.”

  648. “Most don’t know it but the only sect that is mentioned as carrying over into early “Christianity” (which wasn’t known as Christianity until it spread to the gentiles) were the Pharisees.”

    OK, I know I’m going to regret this, but….

    I am questioning the truth of this statement. I can name several Jewish sects that played an important part in early Christianity. Nazarenes (term morphed from a reference to place into a reference to Christians who maintained the practice of Jewish law within Christianity), Essene, Zealot, Pharisee, Sadducee. There were even sects of converted Jews who discarded all strictly Jewish practices and were almost anti-Jew – they have a name as a group but it escapes me at the moment.

    Maybe it depends upon what time frame you are talking about. I would say that the Essenes lasted the longest in maintaining both a Jewish and a Christian identity, but that part of my education is rusty.

    By attention getter, do you mean annoying?

  649. “According to Scripture Hugh, the pharisees were narcissitic blowhards, who stood around damning people for not following the “law” and yet they didn’t follow it either! Except when in the public..”

    Sounds vaguely familiar.

  650. I think Rattle’s outside dancing nekkid in the three raindrops. Not realizing it’s her windshield wipers again.

    I never heard of what Betty said in re: altar guild, and I’m rather suspicious that her bad attitude toward ironing, rather than her loss of iron, might have been the culprit. But then again, I am Anglican to the roots and everyone knows we are born menopausal and get older from there.

  651. No, no really, it happened. Those who bleed could not go on the altar. That was the reason why no altar girls. Things have changed. These little pockets of paganism are being routed out.

    But remember (and this is a detail that seems to be lost on MAM and Deb Lee) that folk beliefs common in the Catholic Church are not the same as official beliefs of the Catholic Church. I attended a church in a post WWII blue collar neighborhood chock full of right off the boat Irish and Italians. I knew who to pray to if I was concerned about the evil eye well before I could read.

  652. I went to a catholic church ONCE, with a friend in high school…. Once was enough for me… Sorry if anyone here is catholic… It just all seemed very eeery to me. And it smelled inside, like incense,which Im allergic to. The echoing was pretty cool cause the church had super high ceilings.. but other than that, I never went back.

  653. God could of shared the curse of women with men.. Like we have to endure periods and menapause,,, at least he could of fixed it where MEN were the ones who had to carry the baby!! LOL LOL

  654. Geez, Deputy, my husband already looks like he’s pregnant.

    I won’t share the joke that goes with that.

  655. Even between a Catholic and a Quaker there are still infinitely more points of agreement than there are differences.

  656. So, Ron, is this the type of chair you sent your wife to?

  657. This site embedded the youtube video for me; I was merely trying to link to it. I didn’t mean to draw that much attention.

  658. Not to worry cement, same happened to me. Posting a youtube link sometimes forces the code,

    Dirty Uncle Bertie


  659. Thank you, Cement. I am sure that was it. Ron’s poor uncle Bertie.

  660. HAHAHA, how funny Cement!!!!

  661. Very funny cement, LOL.

  662. Loved it! Thanks cement, we needed the comic relief.

  663. I loved Dudley Moore!

  664. I just watched the video below the marriage certificates,,, Elaine Jeffs, Warrens own sister, she knows personally of a baby born deforemed that was taken out and drowned,, thats murder!

  665. Well that’s jes fine Ron, wenches are those gals at Renfairs all hooked up into those boob squooshers that lace up and the tighter you pull the ties …

    You got this winch on a hummer, or what?

  666. I thought I’d sort of boast. I got .11 inches of rain this afternoon. I celebrated. That’s more than a tenth of an INCH! I drank almost a whole diet pepsi, straight from the can.

  667. So I guess I shouldn’t say that for the month of July we got 13.51 inches of rain?

  668. Watching I have seen a lot of information posted by Jay Beswick. Are you saying that Rod Parker threatened him? And Jay turned it over to the Police?

    lol I think it is funny. Jay wouldn’t be the one to mess with. Jay probably has more documentation than Rod. What a kick.

    Thanks to all of you who got information about the plates. But I am wondering who made contact with who. Did the FLDS contact Little Shell or did Little Shell Pembina Band contact the FLDS.

    Someone said something about a car dealer that got into trouble. Does anyone know his name?

  669. “In my book, sockpuppetry is pretty bad. However, given the context and the very personal attack on plygkid, it was low down and scummy.”

    The post by “anon” concerning plygkid, which is allegedly me, clearly was to mock the “poor victim”…almost patronizing attitude that many here express about plygkid becasue of his exflds “survivor” status, not attack him personally.

    the othe post quoted directly from Buster and Mazur, the added commentary at the end was obviously the poster’s own commentary and wasn’t intended to suggest it came from Buster or Suzan’s mouth though they would certainly agree with it based on their own statements as documented in that article.

  670. I was complaining to Rattle about how miserably hot I was this afternoon, and then thought to check the thermometer. It was 77° F.

    There was a very long pause and she said, “Dang, that’s rough.”

    Good night, all. I’m going to go prostrate myself in front of a fan.

  671. Duane, don’t worry about it any more. We’ve all moved on.

  672. I would rather talk to anyone else or about anything else than the scum bucket postings of a demented Aider & Abettor Society Hall of Defamer. They say the lowest thing in the ocean is whale excrement because it drops to the bottom, just like yesterdays posting.

  673. You mean like “pond scum” caJim? LOL

  674. “The post by “anon” concerning plygkid, which is allegedly me, clearly was to mock the “poor victim”…almost patronizing attitude that many here express about plygkid becasue of his exflds “survivor” status, not attack him personally.”

    If it had been directed at me I would have considered it an attack.

    “the othe post quoted directly from Buster and Mazur, the added commentary at the end was obviously the poster’s own commentary and wasn’t intended to suggest it came from Buster or Suzan’s mouth though they would certainly agree with it based on their own statements as documented in that article.”

    I did not mean to imply that you were trying to make the posts look like they came from Buster or Suzan. If I gave that impression I apologize to any who were mislead. However you have no idea if they would ever say the words you are NOW trying to put in their mouth. Furthermore, they were hateful, horrible words. It isn’t the first time you’ve done that sort of thing either. It was a deliberate attempt on your part to make your opponents look bad. Unfortunately for you it backfired as no one actually agreed with your bigotry and hatred.

  675. I suppose this isn’t a good time to mention the two or so inches of rain we got last night and today? 😉

    Actually, this has been one of the driest summers on record for my area. Burning season came really early, around mid July rather than in August like it usually does. (That’s when all outside burning is banned because of the risk of fires, for those who don’t have to worry about fire season.)

  676. Walton

    Jay attempted to pay taxes on a home for a friend to avoid eviction, and Rod sent the check back with a threatening letter.

    More like “We have been following you and know who you are, keep this up and we will sue you”

    Jay filed the police report on that, perhaps not so much because threatening to sue isnt against the law, but the back drop of “we are following you” was perhaps threatening so he felt it imperative to document it in case something happened to him.


    On the Shell Pembina, I think the FLDS heard about them and contacted them, I dont see those guys as salesmen running around selling that, but they would accept money if it came by lol.

    I found the craziest scam being run by CP’er Dockstater, I will post that info next.

  677. Hell Walton this is worthy of its own thread!


    The FLDS is all over his page and this guys blog, but I havent read it all.

    Dockstater of Centennial Park on youtube selling the ponzi scheme.

  678. Note its not a “Pyramid Scheme” but rather a “Cone Head Scheme”!

    And its supposed to be a religion too! The best of both worlds!

  679. Brooke Adams
    covers polygamy for
    The Salt Lake Tribune
    To contact Brooke:
    (801) 257-8724

    or email

    Twitter Feed me, Feed me Twitter

    Sum of today: water, wine, cheese, jeans, soap, haywire, ducttape, Oil, gas, rubber, drill bits, city office and a little rain. Guess what? my car broke down! 2 hrs ago

    Lunch at Vermillion Cafe with a tumbleberry margarita! Who says the FLDS dont drink? 9 hrs ago

    Just visited Candice White’s grave and remembered her goodness. Scared the hell out of me when her ghost jumped up and told me to hightail it out of hildale! 10 hrs ago

    More updates by next week… but I still havent met any FLDS who weren’t just taking my money and just saying “NEXT”!!!

  680. Dang Ron

    What did you do to Hugh on his blog? Shove a M80 up there and light it?


    Why visit there and be abused, he sounds like a bad drunk.

  681. I say good for Jay. He knows an awful lot. And has the documents to back up what he says.

    dot dot dot connecting dots. Too funny stamp are you serious?

    Who else is into those Ponzi schemes? Anyone we know?

    Thanks for sharing.

  682. We got 3 inches of rain today. One drop every three inches.

  683. My computer is having trouble now. Scroll is next to impossible. Are we ready for #11?

  684. The UEP was a Ponzai scheme by kicking people out.

  685. Walton

    The website indicates a tie betweein “Elite Activity” Shell Pembina and the FLDS, but the only youtube sales pitch I could find was Dockstateer out of Centennial Park and his video has dates of May 2009 on them.

    This Religion / Pyramid scheme is highly likely to be illegal – and it appears to have originated in Mexico, as there are many more presentations in Spanish.

    The write up on the religion is hilarious! snips

    “The World’s first Interdenominational Belief System on the Internet!

    Poverty is our Adversary!

    “True compassion is more than flinging a coin to a beggar. It comes to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring. ”

    snip to commentary

    “Can you say “PYRAMID SCHEME!”, boys and girls? Sure, I knew you could. This is criminal activity; the only people whose poverty is going to be diminished are the members of the inner circle, and they’re going to make out like bandits. They are bandits!

    Alert the police. They have a list of upcoming gatherings in places like Little River SC, Litchfield Park AZ, Houston TX, and lots of events in Mexico.

    I think having the local bunco squad paying a call on these thieves would add a welcome bit of festivity to their gatherings. They are vermin preying on fears of the economically disadvantaged.”

  686. cement

    Obviously Warren was at the top.

    All the wives he couldnt handle, all the money he couldnt handle, all the rules he couldnt handle.

    He is unworthy of his pyramid. UNWORTHY I TELL YOU!


    Oh well, rumor has it they let some gainfully employed exed members in to start at the bottom again.

    Question is, who’s at the top?

    I reckon the judge should require to know who the Friggen F she is dealing with.

    PS Willie speaking to God yet, or is he still getting dircetions from Wayman and Neilson?

  687. Stamp,

    I occasionally have one VERY COLD beer. I haven’t had one though in months. That’s because alcohol has never been a habit for me. At my first car biz job I had the nickname “one beer,” because no matter how hard anyone tried to get me to drink two, I didn’t.

    Acts 23:6…“When Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.”

    At this point, Paul has been a Christian since Acts Chapter 9, and will never make another missionary journey again. He has done all his church visitation and planting, he is among the leaders of the early Christians, and arguably it’s most prolific writer. He says “I AM A PHARISEE” and if we didn’t get it clearly, he says that he is the “SON OF A PHARISEE.”

    The run up to the letter to the Gentile Church in Acts 15, which I believe I mentioned before, this remark, that says SOME Of the sect of the Pharisees had an erroneous and overly legal view of gentile converts:

    Acts 15:5 & 6: “But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.”

    Though we know that the Essenes existed, they are never mentioned in scripture. The Sadducees? Christ only backhanded them implying strongly that they didn’t even know the scriptures they were arguing about and they died out as well.

    If memory serves me well (and I think it does), Sadducees were the group in control of the Sanhedrin, when Christ was crucified.

    Indeed Christ railed against the Pharisees but then he turned right around and saved many of them, including Paul. You do recall that those whom he loves, he chastens? To be roundly ignored like the Sadducees is the greatest of tragedies.

  688. Hugh

    You treated Ron with disrespect, if I was him I would never post there again. Just because you have admin rights doesnt give you the right to be an asshole to people.

    Ron is an attorney – you have visions of what being an attorney would be like. All your dreams are illegal.

    Who is the idiot there?

    As I have said before, your “Hugh ego” is shining through.

    Make a buck, become an attorney, change the laws of the country.

    There, your mission is laid out before you!

  689. Rattle mutters things about rain.

  690. Of course there’s also the little known fact that Paul’s doctrines were at odds with many of his other “apostles” of the time and that the “deity” of Jesus wasn’t even mentioned until decades after his death. Going further, just because Paul’s sect managed to strongarm the other sects out of prominence with it’s collusion with the Ceaser doesn’t mean that it’s legit any more than Brigham Young’s strongarm tactics make his version of Joe’s church any more legitimate than his son’s version. (Aren’t they called the Church of Christ now?) So please, let’s all sit around and pontificate points on a made up religion from a book written by people that we don’t even know their names (sorry, Pharisee but historical evidence indicates that the authors of the 4 gospels weren’t actually Matthew, Mark, Luke OR John and that Moses probably didn’t really write the books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus….)

  691. Stamp, I try to treat all of you with respect, but in general, you (collectively) don’t return the favor. You’re a case in point. I’ve never accused any of you, for instance, of being drunks.

  692. It’s still damp here, rattle. I think our summer may be officially over. Sometimes it happens that way here. 100 degrees one day, 70 degrees the next. I hope we get a couple more 80 degree days soon though. 😉

  693. “Stamp, I try to treat all of you with respect, but in general, you (collectively) don’t return the favor.”

    You accused Ron here of posting on a book (the Bible), which he didn’t even know. You had no idea whether or not he has read it, studied it, or had a past history of religious belief at all, you simply assumed your knowledge was superior to his. You’ve also called plenty of people idiots and more. If this is your idea of “respect” then you need to brush up on the definition of the word again.

    “You’re a case in point. I’ve never accused any of you, for instance, of being drunks.”

    You’ve insulted plenty of people, generally while trying to imply your own intellectual superiority. Newflash, just because you think you’re smarter than everyone else, it doesn’t make it so. And while you’re tooting your horn of self-righteousness, have you even considered that attempting to become a formal member of a church that you have fundamental doctrinal disagreements with is inherently dishonest and rude. Mark down this prophesy, folks, Hugh’s foray into this religious fold is simply going to result in hurt, anger, and dissention.

  694. Hugh: I will never visit or post on your site. I very quickly scroll by your religious ramblings here. Basically, I, and probably many others, are not interested in your rationalizations to justify your beliefs. In short, I really don’t give a darn, just like I did not give a darn when street would post long religious rants. Just wanted to let you know that, hope it does not harm your fragile ego.

  695. Rebeckah,

    Like I said earlier, that’s a different discussion. For me that discussion is settled, for you it’s settled in another way. Based on what I believe at this time to be true, I act everyday as if they Gospels are what they claim to be and are accurate to a fault (if that is in fact possible).

    I cannot believe as I do, and pretend that I don’t. That’s hypocrisy.

  696. Ale wife,

    Just lettin’ y’all know where I’m coming from. I never for a moment expected to find as much acceptance for the Bible as the Word of God here, on this blog, in the first place. I am rather impressed in fact that there is more respect here for that concept, than I originally believed.

  697. And Hugh, considering the contortions to which you subject the Word of God, I am grateful that there IS a God who’ll have a few topics of discussion to go over with you when you meet face to face.

  698. Can anyone explain this to me?

  699. Texas Rattle,

    Have you READ the entire Bible? If you say I contort it, fine. Show that. I was asked for proof that Pharisees for instance, were named in the early believing church, AS PHARISEES. I procured it. Incontrovertible evidence, assuming one believes the Biblical account to be accurate. So, is CONTORT simply a code word for you don’t like what it says?

  700. “I cannot believe as I do, and pretend that I don’t. That’s hypocrisy.”

    I agree on that. And you’ve been honest with your new Pastor to be. However, it is not respectful to seek admittance into a group that you fundamentally disagree with. It WILL cause strife and division and hurt. When it happens I hope you will remember my prediction and learn from it. (I’ve seen it happen before.)

  701. Hugh

    I didnt accuse you of being a drunk I said –

    “Why visit there and be abused, he sounds like a bad drunk.”

    Which you do, you went way overboard calling him names and ranting in a hissy fit.

    As in


    ” I’m confronted with the choice that you are a bad lawyer, or untruthful. You seem incapable of rational dialogue.”


    You’re LYING.


    Your an idiot


    Now, if you want to play this game and deteriorate into insult fest, I have the bigger soap box.”


    All that crazy name calling in response to Rons rspectful post here:

    Ron in Houston said…

    “Technically Warren dying only gives Walther very partial relief because she’s got one less case.

    I honestly think you’re barking up the wrong tree on the “Warren dies – no Arizona” guess. She doesn’t give a flip about what Judge Conn in AZ says.

    To the extent she’s concerned about her reputation as a jurist, it’s the Courts of Appeals above her and not Judge Conn she’s worried about.

    10:52 AM”


    So my conclusion, JMHO, is you are abusive and out of control, Hugh, and thats the reason why.

    And I can see why your message counts on your board are lower than whale poop.

  702. Hugh, when you cherrypick which parts of the Old Testament to continue to hold applicable today then yes, you contort it. If the New Testament is right and the law no longer applies (and the New Testament made it crystal clear that polgyny was no longer acceptable and, in fact, implies God was never big on the idea) then trying to claim polygyny as appropriate now is based on a contortion. (Well THIS part of the New Testament is right and that part is wrong. Well, where Paul says for women to sit down and shut up in church is right but where it says that we are all equal in the eyes of God is wrong.) I could go on, but I’m sure you get the picture.

    Granted, it’s pretty hard NOT to contort the Bible because it contradicts itself so much.

  703. Rebeckah,

    If you want to have a long discussion, and it would have to be long because the Bible is long, about whether or not I cherry pick, I’d be happy to do that.

    A brief outline of my position is that the Bible in the Law of Moses never asked gentiles, outside the nation of Israel, to follow the law of Moses in the way you suggest. The law, unbeknown to most who claim others “Cherry Pick” it could be obeyed entirely by a fisherman in Tyre, at the time of David the King by eating LOBSTER and CLAMS.

    Why would that be?

    Because that law about CLAMS and LOBSTER was directed at the people of Israel, while in their own borders or “coasts.” I can for instance, not disobey a law by taking a believing widow of Moab as my wife, like Boaz did. Abiathar, the priest, would sin in doing so, as his tribe was restricted to taking only “virgins of Israel” with the exception of a bereft brother’s widow.

    Boaz can and indeed did the greater good, by marrying Ruth, the widowed Moabitess. Abiathar may not touch her for two reasons. You misunderstand the law, and thus do not know what Cherry Picking is all about. I leave you with this clear demonstration of that principle in one law all by itself.

    “Ye shall not eat of any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God.”

    In this law, in Deuteronomy 14, an Israelite can give meat which he could not eat, to a “stranger” who could. The stranger was partially bound by laws pertaining to the Israelites, like his observance of the Sabbath, but he was not restricted by the diet laws in the same way.

    So I, as an Israelite could give to this man, meat I was forbidden to eat, and he could eat it. I could TRAFFIC in this food, cause others to eat it, and not eat it myself. No sin is found in me for doing this, or in him for eating it. Only if I ate it, would it be sin.

  704. And, Hugh, when you called yourself a gentleman yesterday, you apparently forgot the times you have flung curses and insults at me in rather plain language. The different sides of your brain should really get together and have a chat.

  705. Hugh,
    Right is right, wrong is wrong, and it is not actually found in the Bible one way or another. If the Law of Moses does not apply to you then there is no Biblical basis for polgyny, it’s just an aspect of the Bible you choose to embrace. The issue really isn’t the Bible, it’s just that you’ve found within it justification for what you want to do (feel superior over half the world’s population — i.e. females) and you have convinced yourself that it is your superior intellect that has brought you to that conclusion, not your basic insecurities.

  706. Thank you, Rebeckah.

    Yes, Hugh, I’ve read the whole Bible, repeatedly. What’s more, I’ve even THOUGHT about it and discussed it and done research into translations and original word meanings.

    It isn’t worth my time to show you each and every place you’ve contorted the Word. I could spend the entire rest of my life doing that, and it wouldn’t change your mind. Neither is this the place for it.

    I’d consider setting up a yahoo group for us to discuss theology, but I really don’t have the time to bang my head against a brick wall (that would be you) incessantly, and besides, I always feel grimy and tainted after interacting directly with you.

    Fortunately for both of us, God, being who S/He is, continues to love us and reach eagerly to us for our companionship and worship. Thus I can commend your spirit into God’s hands, and put an end to this religious pissing contest on this board.

  707. Hugh

    You are talking in circles without confronting the conflict of OPC and Polygany.

    You cant have both.

    Think back – your pastor and your wife have made it clear to you.

    Playing tiddlywinks with yourself shows your are in denial.

  708. I assume that Walther, like me, hopes that Warren lives to be successfully prosecuted, sentenced and jailed in a way that would be appropriate and just for any serial rapist of under aged females. And I hope that his trial happens because I want every bit of information that is now not known to be open to the public so that all the apologists can get a good look at just what it is they have been claiming is a religious right!

  709. And before you choose to ask me, yep, read the Bible, read the entire Bible — actually, the Bible is what brought me to the point of agnosticism. It’s not really a book to live your life by, as abusive individuals such as yourself show over and over an over again. Thank all that is good in the world that men like you don’t rule anymore!

  710. Betty?

    “CURSES?” I’m sorry, you’ll have to demonstrate that.

    Rattle, if I’m not worth your time, you’re not worth mine. Glad to know you’ve read it. I consider you qualified to take me to task, now either do so, or don’t strut about telling me how you’re right and I’m wrong. I’m expert, you’re expert. Either engage me or go away.

  711. texasrattle,

    You didn’t know? If you disagree with Hugh, you are stupid, ignorant or a tool of the devil. He’s giving you the benefit of the doubt that you might be ignorant. I think we know which of those three he puts me in.

    Actually, I think he’s a good study of the type of mindset that leads you to believing it’s your religious duty to rape little girls.

  712. For those of you who wish to make the claim that the Bible is full of internal contradictions, and that I’m cherry picking, and that YOU’VE read it, I will have to see your work.

    I’m completely open to a discussion on this topic, I think this is a poor venue for it though. Any suggestions? I have one.

    It’s not my forum, it is a Christan forum, it is run by my friend (who once banned me), Rick Beckman. I’d be happy to have that discussion, on the record, whatever topic Rick deems fit for his discussion hall, and he is VERY tolerant.

  713. Hugh,

    It was on Texas Blues blog months ago.

    And as far as rattle engaging you; I’ve seen people soundly beat you with logic and scripture and you wont’ acknowledge your loss. Why should she bother?

    And who died and left you in charge of this blog and able to say who can speak and who cannot? As long as she adheres to the rules here, she can disrespect you all day long if she wants.

  714. I believe from Hugh’s prior comments that he feels it is the religious duties of fathers to determine which old men get to rape their little girls, actually.

    What was that again, Hugh?

    Better that a few 13 year old girls get raped than the manly “rights” of white men get reduced… something like that?

  715. Rebeckah, I appreciate your thoughts on Paul. I have always wondered why some are so in favor of Paul, and yet hate the Roman Church. At what point in history does the early church cease to be the authority and become that evil administration that we love to hate? Personally, I think that Jesus was clear that you don’t need bishops or priests, and the establishment of a group structure was where human foibles started to take over. It’s a common theme in lots of religious movements. On the one hand we have stability, on the other hand we have a political structure that chokes the life out of the original intent of the religion.

  716. Betty

    “You didn’t know? If you disagree with Hugh, you are stupid, ignorant or a tool of the devil.”

    I wonder what box Hugh puts his wife and his pastor into. Maybe all three, And yet he knocks on their door, asking to be entered into the rolls.


  717. So, hugh, several weeks ago you gave this oratory about grace.
    The last two days you have pounded us with the LAW! So which is it?

    I can’t remember who said it in the bible, but it went something like this… Its not what goes in the mouth that makes it a sin, but what of the mouth which can be sinful.

  718. So if you bought a goat, how many tassles would you put on it?

  719. Hugh, you prickhead; I never said YOU weren’t worth my time; I said that I don’t have a spare lifetime in which to point out your errors.
    Don’t put words in my mouth.

    As for “either engage me or go away,” wtf do you think you ARE?
    YOU go away!

  720. Hugh cant even make up his own mind which way the wind blows.

    Discussing theology with him is like discussing theology with a donkey.

    He wont understand in the first place, and is too stubborn to change his ways regardless.

  721. I have a relative who has been through, easily, 20 churches in 40 years. She joins with great sincerity and enthusiasm. The pastor is awesome, the community is great, they are wonderful Christians. Then she starts telling the pastor what to do or say and pointing out when he is wrong. Oddly, this does not go over well. Over a period of time, from mooching on other church members, not being able to be on a committee without running it, and shrieking that other people are tools of the devil because they allow their children to read harry potter or some such, she gets thrown out. The old church now is consigned to hell, and yes, she falls in love with another. I think she moved cross state because she had run out of churches that did not already know of her.

  722. texasrattle, Hugh thinks he is an authoratity on everything! Most pharisees think the same way. Why do you think he is so miserable? Because, God himself can’t straigten Hugh out, because Hugh refuses to HEAR what God tells him.

  723. It does not matter what the subject is Hugh will always talk in circles and make no sense especially when it comes to the bible. It is a waste of time to even try to begin a debate with him you will always end up on another planet.

  724. I agree with you, Rozita.

  725. Hi Roz,

    You got that straight! Say, is hugh still stalking you? I understand he was quite fixated for the longest time.

    Your short description rang the bell. I never attempt discussion, only question his own public displays of religious angst.

    He needs help, and without a repentant spirit, this probably isnt the place to get it.

    At least he has heard the same message that his wife, his pastor, and assorted other bloggers give him.

    so he cant say he hasnt received consistent direction.

    But rather, he is still off on his lark, still lost in the woods.

  726. Rozita,, How are you doing, haven’t seen you in awhile? Staying busy? 🙂

  727. Rozita,, How are you doing, haven’t seen you in awhile? Staying busy? 🙂 Nice to see you!

  728. He has been holding back lately. It’s just a matter of time before he starts up again. I’m sure by me discussing him on here will freak him out. Actually, I just heard a thump there he went lol lol

  729. Ah’m gonna have to get me some high heels so Ah kin strut.

  730. I’m good and yes I’m staying busy and enjoying the Summer. Boy has it been hot! Thank for asking! Nice to see that you all are still around.

  731. Yes, its been horribly HOT here to , 23 days of over 101. and little rain….

  732. Rattle, High hills or stilettos’?

  733. Soundly beat? Then they can do it again, and you’re invited to a forum where that can be done.

  734. I guess I can’t complain too much since we don’t have humidity with the heat here. I do not miss the humidity at all.

  735. Roz LOL

    BTW on another board there was a couple people who expressed sympathy for poor hugh. I told them, as a guy, I was unable to extend that feeling. His nasty response to Ron posted earlier is just one reason.

    He really just thinks too much of himself.

    Narcissistic behavior, exposed on the internet!

    Tsk Tsk its sad, but so is Hugh.

  736. HA, I don’t think I could even walk in high heels or stiletto’s! LOL

  737. Those that thump the Bible should read “An open letter to Dr. Laura.” It’s easily google-able.

  738. Seriously, I tried. 🙂

    The invitation is open to join and I will discuss anything, specifically, on the record, publicly, for all to see. There my defeat can be made sure, and be permanently on display.

    Ta Ta. For good 🙂

  739. Oh Really!! Others can change his diaper, read him bible stories, and feed him BS til he falls asleep.

  740. It has been a realatively cool and wet summer in the midwest. Fewer 90+ degree days so far than for many years.Regarding Hugh: my feeling is that he will never convince me of his beliefs, I will never convince him of mine so why waste anytime engaging with him. Perhaps street and hugh could engage each other on some forum, ROFL.

  741. High heels or stilettos — preferably Prada! (in-joke)

    I prob couldn’t wear them for long. But long enough to strut across the room 🙂

  742. TA TA Hugh,

    Dont let the door slam you on the way out!

  743. Nice rattle!

    I agree chemist it is a waste of time engaging him. There are people who I do not understand especially when it comes to their beliefs, but I can still hold a conversation with them and walk away agreeing to disagree. Truth is you can’t talk to a brick wall.

  744. “Ta Ta. For good ”

    One can only hope…

  745. It’s pointless to speak (or “engage” with) a person as self absorbed as Hugh. He’s as monofocused as Street, he’s just slightly more socially acceptable in his expression of his delusions. He really must have a saint for a wife.

  746. I for one will not miss hugh’s religious mumbo jumbo. Rebeckah echos my wishes for his leaving being permanent.

  747. I think someone posting to this board was once called a “Towering Idiot” and now he leaves this board to only worship from afar, too sad. I’m reminded of that ole western classic song that you can’t be a beacon if your light don’t shine. I guess Hugh chooses to keep his light under a basket and only his special fiends can see it ( no I didn’t misspell ‘friends’).

  748. Heah, Chemist I see we have added another Lady on our board, she’s really a Princess but I am very pleased that she’s here. ;0)

  749. Hey Rattle,

    I have some rather vampish ‘wedges’ that you could borrow to strut-in-comfort.

    However, if you want to go whole-hog I do have a pair of Manolo Blahnik’s left over from my NM days. Otherwise, my best friend sent me a pair of 4″ gladiator stilettos that I’ve only worn once, in the house — whilst sitting. But they do have a Romanesque air which would suit for a Biblical beatdown.

    Let me know, my closet is yours. 🙂

  750. rofl, TexasMom.

    But I wear a size 6 1/2 !!!

    I guess I can stuff wadded up toilet paper in the toes….

  751. Oh dang…well, then…a shopping trip is in order Cinderella!!

  752. Bosu! Whada’um young’uns, whatz gwanin? Everyting gonna be i-rey. Dis’ here Royal Massa Hugh whaswrongwitem…..Huh? He whackin’ whackin’em jaw and bangarang dis innanet, Dizzee Rascal. Him sound’in good frum far but closer his sound is far frum good. Him havin’ battleaxe at his yard and he need to season up de beef fo sum good home cookin’.
    Whad da yu tink? Sisthaz and me Dupps yu kno da way, no need’in a Joker Smoker hunt a matey, me no lie.

    King Jah and Jeezum Peeez frum above X amount

  753. Promises, promises.

  754. Ohhhhhkay then.

  755. Discussion #11 is now open for comments.

  756. hermes outlet

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