~ by FLDS TEXAS on July 30, 2009.
Posted in The Evidence
There are no plans to build a temple here not now not then not in the future.
Otherwise they would have had a set of plans. Not a brainfart from some yokel 25 years ago.
Warren said this place is rejected by God anyway, ITS NOT THE ZION YOU ARE LOOKING FOR.
READ THE DICTATIONS.
BUY A CLUE.
Stamp said this on July 30, 2009 at 7:22 PM
Stamp—I’d like to buy an “A” for aaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy don’t think so! I read on one of the blogs [I lose track] that a temple would/could never be built there cuz it was too close to the highway and to visible to the passing apostates. And we all know how they like their secrecy!
Soozie said this on July 30, 2009 at 10:15 PM
Besides, that is sacred INDIAN ground.
Anonymous said this on July 30, 2009 at 11:19 PM
The Ute ought to seek an injunction stopping the transfer to anyone but themselves. Especially if (as I read yesterday) the Mormon settlers misled the Ute with spurious ‘treaties’ they weren’t authorized to make.
The possibilities for fun are endless (as if this problem wasn’t Byzantine already). But this is why we have a court system—it’s the new millennium’s answer to OK Corral.
Why is it that some people see every bump in the ground as sacred? That was Smith’s problem at Palmyra, NY—he mistook a glacial moraine for something spiritual.
I’m definitely having a vision… of a casino on that spot.
Greetings from New York said this on July 31, 2009 at 8:04 AM
For a long time I thought I loved you guys.
Now I know I love you guys. 🙂
Walton said this on July 31, 2009 at 8:26 AM
Does anyone remember the stories told to Carolyn and others when they were children?
It was in her book.
Walton said this on July 31, 2009 at 8:33 AM
Was it about the game they played as kids that involved the Indians? Can’t remember much about it but I remember her talking about a game ?
mississippigirl said this on July 31, 2009 at 8:49 AM
Here is a little history about the area. Check out Robert, Joseph and Issabella Berry. I tried to bring a link here but it is longer than this page. The name of the book is History of Indian Depredations in Utah by Peter Gottfredson
Ben Bistline also has a lot of info as to how the Berry Knoll and farms came to be part of the FLDS.
All the old cliches most certainly apply in this story.
What goes around comes around.
Which came first the chicken or the egg?
How many women and children sold eggs for a piece of this land? LOTS!!
Also check out the history of Ghost Dance.
Walton said this on July 31, 2009 at 9:01 AM
Walton that is an interesting bit of history of Berry Knoll. For anyone who wants you can read the account here on page 181 (n229 on the website??)
LadySadie said this on July 31, 2009 at 9:19 AM
That link will take you straight to the correct page, the story starts at the bottom of the page.
LadySadie said this on July 31, 2009 at 9:20 AM
The knoll is right on the highway. If it was built there it would be an eyesore, power lines cut across the knoll too.
And ya know what!? Warren said “No more meetings” and the quite large FLDS church in town sits unused.
If Warren wont let them go to church what would he want a temple for?
The special bed on the top floor next to the alter of sacrifice?
Warren dusted his shoes at the crick, they should know what that means and how he feels about them.
“Pay tithes, and Shut up”
Stamp said this on July 31, 2009 at 9:42 AM
Ladie Sadie thank you for bringing the link over.
The name of the childhood game was Apocalypse.
Walton said this on July 31, 2009 at 9:47 AM
I was told recently that there has been activity at the LSJ meeting house. I don’t know if this means that they are holding church there again or not. But I was told people have been gathering there.
I was also told that the FLDS is inviting some of the men who were kicked out to rejoin the group. Maybe that is the situation with Dan Barlow. This person said that the men are being forgiven if they kept their faith while they were exiled.
Does this mean that the exed ones are being allowed to return because they need more tithings to pay for all of the lawyers?
Anonymous said this on July 31, 2009 at 10:12 AM
Sorry, I guess I should have posted that on the Open Discussion thread.
Anonymous said this on July 31, 2009 at 10:13 AM
Why anyone would consider a temple site where a known murder took place is beyond me. I certainly would never consider a temple at Mountain Meadows, or even Berry Knoll; especially since the name is the result of people killed there. Then again, I will refuse car parts if I know the parts came from a wreck where there was a fatality. That’s just my views, though.
cement said this on July 31, 2009 at 10:32 AM
I visited the Grafton cemetery on the way to Zion years ago – the grave site of the Berries is well tended, and a reminder of the struggles and tragedies of the old west.
The Berries capped an old indian, with long gray hair, the article says he was left there to rot in shortcreek area where the murders took place.
Stamp said this on July 31, 2009 at 11:15 AM
It has been alleged (see post by anomynous, 7/31 10:13 am) that gatherings or some type of activities are taking place at the LSJ meeting hall in short creek and that some men who were exed are being allowed back into the fold. The question that arises is who in the flds leadership would be making these decisions. IMO, it would have to be coming from warren since letting someone back in is a priesthood decision. Perhaps warren makes the call and gets the word out to someone who can execute the decision.
The speculation about needing more donations being behind it may be right on. The leadership structure of the flds is quite murky at this time.
chemist said this on July 31, 2009 at 1:02 PM
Im amazed any men who were kicked out and lost their wives and children who were married to “other ” men would even want back in!
If it was Me, I certainly wouldn’t want any part of warren, or Flds. But, I would fight my ass off to get my house I built with my own two hands!
deputydog1 said this on July 31, 2009 at 4:24 PM
Has anyone else read Winston’s account of the hearing?
In it he says he met with wee willie for about 4 hours after the meeting, here is what he has to say about that:
“Willie Jessop: I met with Willie for some four hours on Wednesday evening. I told him, If what you said in court was really speaking the minds of those thousands of people that were outside, then it needed to be said. Willie told me lots of things I had never heard of. He scolded and chided me for saying what I had said. I informed him that my experience with the fiduciary was vastly different than the one that he portrayed to me. He said it was sweet and sexy for me to stand up and say that Mr. Wisan had allowed us to build houses for the widows when the SOB would not allow Jimmy to build one thing. I asked if Jimmy had ever called and talked to the fiduciary to which Willie exploded, we can’t talk to the SOB. It left me so thankful that my father had taught me to read, that my old sister Memory had taught me to do the math, that Uncle Roy had taught me the fundamental principles of my faith, and that Uncle Rulon had never taken away my voice. I heard the thirteenth article of our faith. Nothing is more praiseworthy than good communications.”
So lets see blame Wisan for not letting something be built but then admit that you never asked because “we can’t talk to the SOB”.
LadySadie said this on July 31, 2009 at 4:31 PM
Thanks for the link to the history of Berry Knoll. What on earth possessed these three to continue unescorted after multiple warnings?
This “History of Indian depredations in Utah (1919)” is one strange monograph. I’m not sure I’m up to reading the whole thing online, but it is fascinating.
He opened by saying “It has always been the intention of the Mormon people to court the friendship of the American Indian and treat him kindly.” But by page six, he was writing, “It was the inherent nature of the Indian to steal,” and “Indians could not be depended upon for their lasting friendship.” Sigh; such was diversity in 1919, I guess.
Why was Berry Knoll sacred to the Ute? Does anyone know?
Greetings from New York said this on July 31, 2009 at 4:33 PM
Also from Winston Blackmore’s account of the hearing and this pretty much sums it up:
“It went on and on and there were many more good presentations. The judge said that she was more convinced than ever before that we were still divided. I bet that she can imagine a little of what trying to negotiate the middle east crisis is like. This is the middle west crisis where no one is willing to acknowlege that anyone else has the right to exist because their alla said so. And all the while the expensive peace keepers are being bombed and shot at.”
LadySadie said this on July 31, 2009 at 4:34 PM
Sorry forget to give the link for Winston Blackmore’s account:
LadySadie said this on July 31, 2009 at 4:35 PM
What about the Utes and the ghost dance, may I ask? I know a certain amount of ghost dance history.
GrannyToad said this on July 31, 2009 at 6:12 PM
The ghost dance is no longer for the utes. It was done away with in the early 1900’s according to ute history.
deputydog1 said this on July 31, 2009 at 7:42 PM
I read Bistlines History, I saw where on one trip in this wilderness, a wagon ran over a little boy and killed him. They had to bury him out in the middle of nowhere.. Geez, seems Utahans have been running over children for over a 100 yrs.. Utah has a BAD record for running over children with their cars, and tractors, leaving the child dead, or disabled…
deputydog1 said this on July 31, 2009 at 8:18 PM
It continued longer for others. I’d asked about utes following the ghost dance way. Now even more curious maybe, why did they stop expecting the return?
GrannyToad said this on July 31, 2009 at 8:18 PM
yeah Deputy, it’s strange.
This just happened yesterday –
4-year-old Orem boy run over, killed in driveway
He was hit while lying on driveway at his home
Anonymous said this on August 1, 2009 at 8:01 AM
And this happened last Sunday –
Toddler backed over in parking lot
Anonymous said this on August 1, 2009 at 8:04 AM
Actually, children being run over isn’t a freak occurence. I knew a family in a church I went to who lost a pre-schooler to being run over too. They’re so small it’s often hard to see them and they don’t have the judgement to stay away from the big vehicles. It is always a tragedy when it happens.
Rebeckah said this on August 1, 2009 at 9:25 AM
Rebecca some 13 children have been killed or disabled just since january this year in Utah by people running over them
deputydog1 said this on August 1, 2009 at 10:12 AM
This is Utah report on Domestic Violence in Utah 2008 This includes phyiscal, sexually, etc of women. And only the ones reported to agencies. Utah has a problem with sexual and domestic violence.
deputydog1 said this on August 1, 2009 at 10:42 AM
Yeah deputy, they do. Could this be 2 of the reasons why so many women are taking Prozac in Utah?
Anonymous said this on August 1, 2009 at 12:10 PM
I realize that, DD and I do believe the chauvanistic views of the church have a lot to do with it. Abuse used to be more widespread in the Catholic congregation too, for much the same reason too. There’s just something fundamentally wrong with a doctrine that says men are all that and women and children servants…
Rebeckah said this on August 1, 2009 at 12:10 PM
Rebeckah, a huge difference between the FLDS and American Catholics is that Catholics are fully integrated into American society. So any bone-headed messages from the clergy are tempered by reality. I know a million Catholics, and none are patsies.
I’m old enough to remember ancient black-clad Catholic widows who went to Mass every morning and rosary-clutching nuns in wimples and habits. But I don’t remember a single Catholic who abdicated responsibility for his or her own thinking.
Greetings from New York said this on August 1, 2009 at 4:39 PM
I agree, Greetings, although from what I understand things aren’t quite as enlightened in many of the southern countries like Portugual and Brazil, etc. Still, Catholisism has evolved a great deal compared with Mormonism. If it lasts long enough, I’m sure Mormonsim would evolve too. But right now people need to be pointing out the cruelties inherent in this belief system.
Rebeckah said this on August 1, 2009 at 4:43 PM
Kudos to the person that posted the map of the Farms. But now I am confused.
Is the Berry Knoll farms also known as the “Berry Knoll”? and is this where the Berries are buried?
Walton said this on August 1, 2009 at 11:15 PM
Peter Gottfredson’s “History of Indian Depredations in Utah” says their corpses were taken to Grafton for burial. According to his description, they were murdered “two or three miles from Short Creek.” He says they were first attacked at a “Cedar Ridge,” and then turned back and were finally dispatched at a “Big Sand Wash.” They were off the wagon road proper which is why it took so long for their bodies to be discovered. He says that an old Indian was displayed dead to evacuees a few weeks later near the same site. (A reprisal killing? Who knows?)
He also mentioned an area called “The Troughs” in this account (closer to Short Creek). I have looked for a sand wash, cedar ridge and troughs on a topo map of the area without success, but someone who actually lives there might know exactly what Gottfredson was talking about.
A caution: the author says he was living in the Sevier Valley at the time of the Blackhawk War. That means he got his landmarks second-hand. This doesn’t mean they’re wrong, but it does mean we should take them with a grain of salt. Turn-of-the-century writers capitalized a lot more than we do, so we shouldn’t assume these are formal place names.
BTW—why did you mention the Ghost Dance in re: Berry Knoll?
Greetings from New York said this on August 2, 2009 at 8:53 AM
GFNY about troughs, I wondered if that could be sluices. Or burnt out / dugout actual troughs to collect water for drinking, or livestock? I’ve seen those also in rocks high above.
Part of the early mormon early story in UT was that they were NOT to mine. So they killed & stole what miners mined … but anyway, shortly later they COULD mine coal and iron for MORMON use, just not the precious metal stuff.
Me I only “mine” UT topaz and corundum … goofy old rock lickin rockhound.
I’ve made personal studies over decades of mankind’s very early conservation of water throughout the dry southwest. In spanish you’ll find words like tinaja or hueco (waco) around, and in other areas other words. In AZ there was what was known as Sinagua culture, that is, without water, even.
GrannyToad said this on August 2, 2009 at 10:03 AM
You might be right, GT. There is a lovely lake in the High Peaks of the Adirondacks called “Flowed Land” which was actually a sluice for a nineteenth century blast furnace.
But look here:
It shows a Big Sand Wash and a Cedar Ridge right about where Gottfredson said they’d be, but it does show Berry Knoll Summit elsewhere. (There may be two in Arizona.) Nonetheless, this all seems a bit south of where the present-day farm is, doesn’t it?
Greetings from New York said this on August 2, 2009 at 11:01 AM
Admin, when I click on the newest picture I get an error rather than an enlarged view of the image. Is the link broken?
Rebeckah said this on August 2, 2009 at 11:07 AM
A formation called “The Troughs” in modern-day Washington County I could understand. But that was back before the welfare state.
Greetings from New York said this on August 2, 2009 at 12:06 PM
Trivia for those who are interested in Grafton. The “bicycle” scene from the movie Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid was filmed in Grafton. It was the scene where Butch rode the bike during the song “Raindrops keep falling on my head”
Anonymous said this on August 2, 2009 at 12:06 PM
Rulon T. Jeffs, Johnson’s successor, also spoke contradictorily about Musser. Rulon Jeffs mostly condemned Musser for his promotion of a priesthood council, based on a 1880 revelation to Wilford Woodruff, over the ”one-man rule” laid out in verse 7 of section 132 of the Doctrine & Covenants, a Mormon scripture. Jeffs was a ”one-man rule” proponent, as he makes clear in his 1997 book, ”History of Priesthood Succession.”
Jeffs attributed Musser’s 1949 stroke to an act of God fulfilling section 85 of the Doctrine & Convenants and says Musser was ”the center of all of the apostasies that have taken place.” Jeffs also described Musser as the ”patron saint” of the Allred (Apostolic United Brethren) and Centennial Park groups.
Yet it was Musser who converted Jeffs, as well as Jeffs’ father, to fundamentalism. Musser ordained Jeffs to various offices, gave him what is known as a patriarchal blessing that predicted he would ‘’sit in council with the Prophets of God” and sealed Jeffs to his wife Kathleen in 1942.
When I ask FLDS members about Musser, most tell me he did a lot of good works for the Fundamentalist movement though he is not considered part of their chain of priesthood leaders.
Over in Centennial Park, Musser still holds that position. His portrait is included in wall displays of former presidents of The Work in some homes.
Anonymous said this on August 2, 2009 at 1:03 PM
Thanks for the link, Anon. Great quote in it:
“When will these blessings be materialized?” [Joseph Musser] said, “When you become united.”
Greetings from New York said this on August 2, 2009 at 6:50 PM
Stamp there is an audio of Warren talking about Joseph Musser stroke and how lightning struck a green tree.
Do you know who would have the transcript and post it here?
I found it to be very prophetic regarding Rulon Jeffs in light he had a stroke too.
Anonymous said this on August 3, 2009 at 10:13 AM
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