Open Discussion #9

Continued from Open Discussion #8

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on July 27, 2009.

669 Responses to “Open Discussion #9”

  1. DD, thanks for your recitative on the laws being broken (with impunity) in Utah.

    Ron in Houston ruined my day recently by pointing out that the Attorney General has pretty much complete discretion in deciding what crimes to prosecute, and the public’s only power to change this lies in the ballot box.

    But I wonder if there’s any special case present in Utah’s constitution, which states explicitly that “the following ordinance [banning polygamy] shall be irrevocable without the consent of the United States and the people of this State …”

    The United States has never given its consent for the AG of Utah to decriminalize polygamy. But it seems very clear that the Utah AG intends to decriminalize it in practice.

    How does this fit in the framework of federal oversight? How might the limitation be enforced by non-Utahns who wish to see the terms of the statehood agreement enforced?

    I admit this is a very esoteric question, since the constitutional limitation is unique to Utah, so what case law could there be?

  2. very esoteric …

  3. The following isn’t esoteric at all, seems very needed and proposed but still not funded nor enacted by the U.S. Senate,”The lawless conduct of polygamous communities in the United States deserves national attention and federal action” said Senator Harry Reid, Majority Whip in 2008 before the Senate Judiciary Committee,”Sects such as the FLDS have wrongfully cloaked themselves in the trappings of a religion to conceal crimes such as bigamy, child abuse and statutory rape of girls forced to marry older men and bear their children”. CNN report 24 July, 2008.

    Where is this proposed bill and will it be enacted in this Senate term?

  4. I just read Amy Hennington’s response to Boots over on TBM’s blog. I’m kind of curious as to what the state of Texas considers to be purposes “usually associated with cemetery visits.”

    In my neck of the woods, people often go to graves to rubberneck. You wander into Trinity church and look at the graves of Alexander Hamilton, James Monroe, and General Horatio Gates, and reflect that “all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass.” Then you walk down the block and have a gelato.

    (This is especially fun in Boston.)

  5. “But it seems very clear that the Utah AG intends to decriminalize it in practice.”

    Even before Lawrence, most states had sodomy and adultery statutes on their books but rarely if ever enforced them so I guess they “decriminalized” such activities in practice for quite a long time.

    When push comes to shove, The general public is not going to tolerate harsh enforcement of polygamy statutes against consenting adults and anti-polygamists are going to come across as uptight self righteous bedroom police along the likes of Pat Robertson, James Dobson, the late Jerry Falwell, and of course the notorious Shanda Perkins who led an anti-sex toy crusade in Texas which led to the the state’s archaic laws against such devices getting overturned on constitutional grounds.

    Thanks to Texas, we now have the right to engage in gay sex and purchase and sell sex toys without having to call them “adult novelties”. Soon, citizens who choose to cohab with multiple sex partners will be able to do it in peace without being forced to refer to their partners by a term other than “wife” or “husband”.

  6. duane,

    You still dont get it. Nobody is after three or four adults living together in your neighborhood.

    However, when said group starts adding children to the menu, and then try to hide behind the skirt of reigion, then yes there will be LE action,

    Gay rights never were intended to give molesters rights, and never will. Molesters will continue to be prosecuted, thankfully, even in the face of other unorthodox relationships.

    Its the children, stupid!

  7. duane so happy to see you post and I wanted to discuss Tony Alamos “Ten for Ten” conviction with potentially 175 Years of incarceration and $$$fines. Now we have an example of the true guilt of a teen age girl predator and pedophile whom soon will join the prison population along with the Prophet Warren S. Jeffs. Looks like statutory rape is NOT going to reach “adult novelties” status anytime soon!

    ‘Soon, citizens who choose to cohab(celestial wed) with multiple sex partners(both genders)will be able to do it in peace without being forced(like Child Brides) to refer to their partners by a term other than “wife” or “husband”(or be told that their mock ‘celestial marriage’ is legally valid/enforceable). duane dude what century is this going to happen within, certainly not this century. All the tests on nonconstitutional are still precedents and the Supreme Court passed on even listening to Holms case? What State is going to amend their constitution to enact legalization of bigamy/polygyny/polygamy? Where is there even an elected Congressman whom is proposing such a legalization bill? “Soon” must mean sometime in the future century(s) of time.

    duane do you really think that Tony Alamos ten convictions advances or damages your chances of any form of legalization. Wait until this fall when Raymond Jessop and Allen Keates are brought to trial and the Press & Public outrage is manifested, then you’ll see that your dreamworld is just a fantasy all your own.

    ‘Remember Tony Alamo’

  8. That “response” to the legality — and it is legal in Texas — of visiting graves is so ignorant it sounds like Goldstein admitting in court he hasn’t documentation for his claim. What has happened to education in the US? Isn’t logical thinking taught? Reading comprehension? Any little bluehaired 90 year old lady in some backwater genealogy group in Texas coulda told that so-called “lawyer” twit how it works legally and in practcality.

    Genealogists go to cemeteries for picnics. They take photos to email to some corresponded in New Zealand or Maine or Hoboken or wherever of some descendant or ancestor EVERY DAY.

    Bullies like FLDS aren’t familiar with abiding by US and State laws, they spent too much time in Utah. Something ought to be done to clear that “chicago west cesspool” out. I don’t give a damn if they are my relatives or not.

  9. “Bullies like FLDS aren’t familiar with abiding by US and State laws, they spent too much time in Utah.”

    One batch of folks from this group tried to buy property in (I think) South Dakota (maybe Colorado, can’t remember off of the top of my head) and before the sale had been finalized moved onto the land and started major earthmoving and the like. Well, the sale didn’t go through, they hadn’t gotten permits for what they were doing and damaged valuable wetlands, messed with the river, etc. No, you’re right Huesos, they aren’t at all accustomed to the fact that they live within a greater community and that they are subject to those laws.

  10. Well on MadBill Mudpucky’s site he says he is going to Utah to protest outside the court house tomorrow. I am waiting for his post tomorrow that says, “a family emergency” came up that prevented him from attending, LOL. Anyone want to place bets as to whether he will actually show up?

  11. Rebeckah these FLDSers are hard at work and friendly, loving church goers. They are trying to bring “Zion” to this World and they are following the prophets directions, to the letter. They don’t recognize nor care for the Constitution nor governmental authorities. They display no American flags nor even erect a flagpole at their cemetery to fly the flag of the United States over their deceased. They don’t make the ‘Pledge of Allegiance’ to our flag nor country. So, no they don’t see a need for a permit, license or legal statute if it runs contrary to their Faith. Their conviction history of felony(s), fines, criminal labor law violations, fugitive flight of their Prophet and religious tenets that disregard our Law & Order System of Justice, speaks for itself. They do NOT view themselves as fellow compatriots and American citizens, first and foremost.

  12. If Lone Rider at Brooke’s blog is to believed, neither to the LDS. They are a “sovreign” people and we wicked Americans are “prejudiced” against them. lol

  13. Rebeckah,

    You have been tearing them up! I love it… 🙂

  14. There are sovereign lands – nations – within US continental borders: native american reservations. Where are the FLDS reservations?

    There are none and shall not be any. FLDS need to become accustomed to obeying our laws while their feet tread the soil of our citizens’ lands. FLDS shall teach their children well the laws and behavior considered decent in our nation while they’re here and to respect US citizens.

  15. Let it be understood that Lone Rider does not speak for the LDS. IMO, his rant on Brooke’s blog is, factually incorrect, divisive, and reveals someone who has been in short creek far too long.
    Huesos is correct in that there are not, nor should ever be reservations for religious groups to vioate state and federal laws with impunity.

  16. duane,

    You still dont get it. Nobody is after three or four adults living together in your neighborhood.
    ==============================================
    I dunno. Shurtleff stated that he will prosecute crimes like child and domestic abuse along with financial crimes and people called him a shirker for not going after polygamist.
    ===============================================
    FLDS shall teach their children well the laws and behavior considered decent in our nation while they’re here and to respect US citizens.
    =================================================
    I agree with you about laws but behavior is a private matter between parent and child. Seems to me they respect US citizens at least I have seen nothing to indicate otherwise.

  17. The FLDS “respect” citizens by taking tax dollars for a public school and using it in their private school? By refusing non-FLDS the right to bury their dead in their family plots? By kicking beneficiaries of the UEP out (ie, attempting to remove them from the beneficiary class) for not agreeing to the illegal “marriage” of their underage daughter? They “respect” US citizens by holding government offices and then ignoring their oaths of office in order to break the law and “live” their religion. Some people have a very, very odd idea of “respect”.

  18. “Remember Tony Alamo”

    The Tony Alamo case while interesting had nothing to do with the FLDS or mormon fundies. The alamo people are not polygamists nor is it part of their doctrine like it is with Mormonism even thought Tony Alamo dabbled with it after his original wife died of cancer…apparently he really went nutty after she passed away.

    I love how you guys desperately try equate every oddball religiouos sect with Fundy Mormonism, the theology of TAlamo is basically protestant christian complete with anti-catholic doctrine. As far as polygamy goes there are Jewish, Christian, and Secular polygs who have absolutely nothing to do with and are sometimes even hostile to Mormonism. Here is a good site
    [Deleted website reference against blogsite policy]

    Another example of smearing you try to use is equating the ESmart kidnapping case with actions typical of Mormons, totally irrelevant. If I declared myself a fundie Mormon polyg tomorrow and went out and shot up a grocery store killing several patrons, robbed a bank, or kidnapped a girl….this would have absoulutely nothing to do with anyone else whether polyg, monig, black, white, atheist, christian, jew or mormon….THAT IS WHAT YOU DON’T SEEM TO GET!!! It is also why everyone calls you the B word and H word.

    This was typical strategy employed against blacks and even hispanics in Texas during the Jim crow era, whenever a minority committed a crime, was used as evidence that ALL of them were criminals.

    Later

  19. “Another example of smearing you try to use is equating the ESmart kidnapping case with actions typical of Mormons, ”

    No Duane, it is an example of “first amendment right to practice religious beliefs” gone wild and a valid example of why there are limits on “freedom to practice religious beliefs”. YOU are the one who is trying to twist it into some form of bigotry to justify your sick views of sex with minors and coercing minors into marriage and motherhood before they grow up. Just as Brian Mitchell was a religious nutcase, so is Warren Jeffs. The only difference between the two is that Warren had a community willing to give him their daughters to molest and Brian had to kidnap his new “bride” given to him by the “Lord”. Another basic fact is that Mormonism really gives a good framework for religious extremists to go nuts. Granted Judaism, Christianity and Islam do too, but they’ve mainly mellowed over the past 2000 or so years and it’s harder to justify that extremism when the majority who believe in your sacred writings tell you what a loony toon you are. Mormonism, however, has attracted a large number of fanatical people and far too many of them seem willing to keep going deeper and deeper into craziness that requires the abuse and subjegation of women and children. It’s very, very sad legacy Joseph Smith’s adulterous con left.

  20. Rebeckah, kidnapping is illegal, that is the crime he committed. There is nothing in Mormon canon that authorizes kidnapping women or girls for wives.

  21. “It is also why everyone calls you the B word and H word.”

    Who is everyone and what is the B word and the H word? Sorry, I don’t have my “duane dictionary” with me today.

    And Duane? quit saying “later.”
    We know you are still there.

    You don’t have to leave because you post a “dissenting” opinion, just understand that we are horrified by the abuse and control over the women and children. I know you don’t support that, right?

    And if they didn’t engage in polygamy and were still abusing their women and children, we would still be offended.

    And we would still have this blog.
    And their children would still have been taken away.

    But maybe, just maybe, the women will wake up. They will see their own self worth and know that they can have their very own husband, and not have to share.

    That they don’t need a man to get to heaven. Just be a good person, help other people, be kind. Those things will get them to heaven just fine without the heartache of being a number instead of “the wife” .

  22. duane said:

    “There is nothing in Mormon canon that authorizes kidnapping women or girls for wives.”

    Really, what would you call sending your wife to the mental institution because she doesn’t keep sweet enough or mind her husband in everything he says and does? Kidnapping. I mean, you don’t think they WANT to go there do ya?

    Why the “houses of hiding”? But that’s not the right question is it?

    The question should be ” Why are you hiding your wives & kids?” Why send them to remote locations so they have no link to the outside world? Why build a gated compound ? Why need permission to pay your respects to a grave?

    What are they hiding, Duane?

  23. Brian Mitchell was mentally ill. He was LDS, so his background was LDS and mental health professionals have stated publicly that it is normal for mentally ill people to look to what they know (were raised with) and see it through a distorted lens. He wasn’t raised in polygamy; he has no history of any association with any of the polygamous groups. He didn’t join them; he didn’t contact them. He wasn’t a “fundamentalist Mormon”. He was mentally ill, became homeless and alienated his family and support system, as happens with people who have those kinds of problems, and then he did what he did.

  24. Houses of hiding, in at least three North American nations. What is, why, EXACTLY is that?

  25. What mormon wasn’t raised with polygamy? Were Brian Mitchell’s family newbies?

    I’ve met mormons who introduced themselves to me as (his) spiritual wife.

  26. Duane is right ~ adultery, fornication AND sodomy are all still codified in statute in Utah, though some states have already removed them as out-dated. Utah has chosen to retain them as a “moral” message to the state that Utah citizens should live up to those moral standards. Those laws are not being prosecuted because 1) too many people are breaking them, and 2) society in general doesn’t give a damn about it, and 3) the minute someone is charged with any of them, Lawrence will trump the charges and the statutes will be struck down — ta da, off the books – NO MORE MORAL PREACHING to Utah citizens. The cohabitation clause of the bigamy statute is the same.

    Don’t give me that crap that you don’t care what three or four consenting adults do, but as soon as there are children, you’re all up in arms. That’s bullcrap. Group sex is legal in New York. It’s fornication or sodomy in Utah. It’s illegal in both states if it’s commercial. The people who engage in it by and large are parents with children at home. Polyamorists have a variety of open marriages and it’s “stigma” and bigotry that harass them in their day to day lives, not prosecutions for what they do, although they certainly could be prosecuted under bigamy statutes or adultery statutes or whatever. Lawrence could certainly provide a good test for polyamorous families, and a lot of those families have polygynous arrangements, though they are not as strictly structured as the FLDS or other polygamists.

    The truth is, if you were really about child abuse or concerned about protecting kids, you wouldn’t be wasting all your time here and on other blogs harping harping harping all day long about how much you hate polygamy and how bad the FLDS are. Are you all paraplegic or something that you have nothing better to do with yourselves than beat a dead horse singing to your own choir?

    I got the impression that some of you are mothers, and what, you spend your time posting 400-500 comments per day on blogs??

    What are you going to do in five years when you look back and see all the time you wasted on these stupid blogs griping and grousing but amounting to nothing?

    You are all FAKERS, claiming you care about children, but ignoring the very real abuses that take place right UNDER YOUR NOSES, in your own neighborhoods, in your own backyards, in your own states.

  27. We aren’t wasting time, what makes you think we are just “sitting here” and what makes you think I DON’T help out in my neighborhoods?

    And by the way, I’m at work , not the house, and we have nothing to do, so I am allowed to “blog”

    You don’t like our blog and what we have to say, go somewhere else.

    Dumb Dumb, we aren’t fakers either. What are you in 5th grade?

    In 5 years , it won’t be the same group, we’re here to make sure of that.

    That’s why your so scared of our blog and it causes your anger.

    See a therapist.

  28. duane the parallels between Tony Alamo and Warren S. Jeffs are (and no they are of different Christian religious faiths) :
    Both profess to be Prophets
    Both proclaim the authority of the Almighty
    Both are unquestioned/sole Leaders of their denominations
    Both married more than a dozen women bigamously
    Both wed Minor teens and performed illegal sexual contacts.
    Both are then statutory rapists and avowed pedophiles.
    Both kept their victims in secluded/secured enclaves removed from Public scrutiny.
    Both would use threats of reprisals, physical intimidation, bodyguards and expulsion from the sect as a means of enforcing their control(s).
    Both controlled what their victim wore, lived, ate, contact with family and other daily activities.
    Both took their victims across State lines for purposes of sexual exploitation.
    Both had children born from these sexual relationships.

    Except for those examples duh duane they had nothing in common whatsoever.

  29. Anonymous, I work, but I also care about child abuse, not just FLDS but all child abuse! You betcha I’m against polygamy. Just like your probably against same sex couples being married.
    Polygamy is a scurge on American Society! And the Law in Utah says POLYGAMY is against the Law, as well as bigamy.
    Baby let me tell you something, most everyone here does know what is going on in their own neighborhoods. They know the children in their neighborhoods, and they know how to define abuse.
    You don’t like it here, my advice is DON’T come here.

  30. I’m being amused that Anonymous at 1:20 thinks that blogging is inconsistent with constructive activity. He/she/it hasn’t a CLUE about how constructively active a bunch of us are or what projects we’re working on as we strive to free the young women of the flds.

    And we don’t hide behind the screen name “anonymous,” either.

  31. “Rebeckah, kidnapping is illegal, that is the crime he committed. There is nothing in Mormon canon that authorizes kidnapping women or girls for wives.”

    Duane, polygamy and underage marriage are also illegal. There is nothing in Mormon canon which authorizes underage marriage either. However there IS in the Mormon canon the part where “If God says it I must do it.” which, of course, Brian Mitchell went with. Funny thing, so did Warren. So did Evril LeBaron. The point is that making exceptions to the law for “religious practices” is a dangerous precedent. If the LDS, FLDS, Muslim or Christian Polygamists don’t like the law then I suggest they put whatever differences they might have aside and start working together to see if they can get it changed. I further recommend that they cease to break the law until it is changed if they don’t want to face the legal consequences for their actions.

  32. Anyone heard any news on the Hearing in Lindbergs court today??

  33. Rebeckah I think your post above is just because your a law abiding and and practitioner of good citizenship, something that the Warrenites not only are never taught or espouse. They see our activities as being bigoted and persecution driven with a strong bent of being a busybody & hatemongers but not an American who espouses their Civil Liberties and Freedoms in the town square along with everyone in their community. Something here is a little warped and bent in it’s perspective, isn’t Duh duane?

  34. Cajim, Alamo’s followers were always out and about spreading their tracts and messages throughout many states, The FLDS folks also get out and about, go on vacations, dirt biking, trips to Sea World, restaurants, Las Vegas, Lake powell, snowboarding, etc etc…according to PK, Elissa Wall, Carolyn Jessop, Maggie Jessop, so on. They tend to shun ex-members of their respective groups much like typical fundies including Baptists, Amish, and Jehovah’s witnesses. As to their clothing, many religious denominations restrict clothing for reasons of modesty. FLDS folks are free to leave whenever they want and in fact the attrition rate is rather high as many of them choose not to live that lifestyle with NO hard feelings toward said group. Elissa, Flora, Carolyn, and a whole slew of others left and NO, they were not kept by force and dragged back into the FLDS at gunpoint.

    Civil liberties applies to the Government authorities since they have the monopoly on physical force, not small religious or other social groups.

    I can form a Fascist social club or Communist society, me being the sole leader and if you choose to obey my whims and recognize me as “Il Duce” boss of said group, you have that right and as long as I don’t forcibly imprison you to keep you or others from leaving then you are free to live by my dictates.

    A common feature of totalitarian regimes is to either abolish competing centers of powers ie churches, private enterprises, unions, social clubs like the communists do or subvert them to their own ends as is typical of Fascist regimess. It seems our country is heading in that direction though not as far along as many Europeon states like Britain or the Netherlands.

  35. I’m wondering if “Europeon” was an intentional mispelling.

  36. The people in the Stanford prison experiment were free to leave at any point during the experiment, too.

  37. duane, where did carolyn Jessop or elissa wall ever state they could go dirt biking, swimming,skiing, or go to resturants?

  38. Carolyn escapes in the middle of the night with no gas, no money, having contacted no one but an immediate family member and you say they aren’t “kept by force?”

    Flora escapes/tried to leave and she goes to Fred Jessop’s house in a room for 2 years. And you say she wasn’t kept by force?

    Elissa had to state that she slept with someone else to be able to leave and she was worried about her family the entire time!

    What are you talking about Duane? We have discussed this over and over. You don’t put your women in isolated places and keep them sweet by FORCING THEM TO KEEP SWEET.

    And we don’t care about your Fascist or Communist society what’ifs!

    And I grew up Southern Baptist and NO, we don’t shun ex-members!

    For gosh sakes, man, READ, READ READ and quit listening to someone that is laughing his ass off at how fast he was able to sucker you in to be his mouth-piece.

  39. How do you put 30 kids and 5 wives in one vehicle duane?? LOL

  40. Well its for SURE where the elite live now, there will be NO skiing or snowboarding! Nothing but rocks, rattlesnakes and dirt

  41. Wow, I really like cement! Doesn’t post very often, doesn’t say much but what he does say hits the nail on the head, very powerful. Thanks for your input cement!

  42. Duane, the government doesn’t have to do it. Flds did it to themselves.. How many mexicans in Flds? How many blacks? How many of any color , even white men or women are from the OUTSIDE EVIL world Jeffs proclaims???
    You ever see women joining Flds in droves duane? LOL

  43. “A common feature of totalitarian regimes is to either abolish competing centers of powers ie churches, private enterprises, unions, social clubs like the communists do or subvert them to their own ends as is typical of Fascist regimess. It seems our country is heading in that direction though not as far along as many Europeon states like Britain or the Netherlands.”

    Well, Duane, it seems like the FLDS are well on their way, with their abolishment/subversion of the municipal public library, Short Creek police department, municipal government, public school system, community college, public medical clinic, Short Creek airport etc. Hey, even the cemetery!

  44. That they don’t need a man to get to heaven. Just be a good person, help other people, be kind.
    ==============================================
    Actually being a good person and helping other people will not get you into heaven because we all have fallen short of the glory of god.

  45. ACTUALLY, alinusara, heaven is open to those who accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God, EVEN those believers who have fallen short of the glory of God.

  46. Which, incidentally, is everybody. None but God can achieve the glory of God.

  47. Alinusara10 said:

    “Actually being a good person and helping other people will not get you into heaven because we all have fallen short of the glory of god.”

    Please go preach somewhere else. “Pharisee” is waiting for you to come to his website!

  48. Well I’m sure I won’t be popular for pointing this out, but no “actually” knows heaven exists. Many believe and hope it does, but I’m afraid that hard, cold evidence is somewhat lacking.

    Then again, I find trying to be a “good” person is satisfying in and of itself.

  49. Why should I? I’m welcome here. Jesus told me to share the good news. I am not being pushy about it, but when you say something which is theologically incorrect, I am obligated to correct your mistake.

  50. Ah, Rebeckah, GFNY and I need to have a long, long and earnest discussion, I can tell.

  51. Er. With you.

    *sighs*

    It’s hot and I’m tired.

  52. That would be “no one “actually” knows heaven exists.

  53. I have to disagree, Rebeckah 🙂

  54. ACTUALLY, alinusara, heaven is open to those who accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God,
    ===============================
    I agree.

  55. Cement when you left, did they try to force you back into the FLDS, what about your wife assigned to you by Warren, did they attempt to capture her at gunpoint and reassign her to another man? Are your former flds buddies and even family hostile to you?
    If so, I can’t blame them one bit, if my brother left my family and started saying bad things about me and joined a group hell bent on my peer’s destruction…I would be quite hostile to them. You are allowing yourself to be a pawn of the anti-polygamist crusaders assuming you have not renounced your general Mormon faith, I suspect you still basic beliefs are still intact as you said earlier your ex-flds wife still only wears “prairie dresses”.

    The Stanford prison experiment was a fascinating experiment that provided even more confirmation that power corrupts, which is why we should limit government power.
    Yeah I know all about Warren Jeffs and anyone can make a good argument he abused his power but I’m not defending Warren Jeffs the individual, but the FLDS people in general like say Billy Bob Barlow with 2 wives and 10 kids, who other than practicing polygamy, is living an honest life and doing the best he can for his family…I’m sure the FLDS is mostly filled with “Billy Bob Barlows” as I believe most humans but certaintly not all, are basically good people.

  56. I don’t accept Jesus Christ and I may go to hell, hahaha but if the Mormons are right I get a second chance.

  57. No second chances, duhwayne, sorry bout that.

  58. The Stanford prison experiment was a fascinating experiment that provided even more confirmation that power corrupts, which is why we should limit government power.
    ======================================================
    I know this is off topic and I apologize but this is very fascinating. Due to studies like this they knew exactly how guards under very loose supervision would act in Iraq. Remember Pvt England? I wonder why this didn’t have more safeguards in place.

  59. duane, you been sucking up to Pliggy again? or is it Medvecky this time??? Your such an insulting person duane, cement doesnt have to tell you his circumstances. But I guarntee you one thing, most men kicked out, figured if they repented from afar, they would be able to return to their families. NOT SO! As soon as a man left town, Warren remarried wives and give their children to other men.
    You just don’t get it duane!!!! Everything, Every Human Being in FLDS belongs to the PROPHET!!! PERIOD!

  60. HA! Men lost priesthood but were told to keep tithing! Wonder how long excommunicated men tithed before they realized, they weren;t going to get back in FLDS? Sucks doesn’t it duane! It would be like your mexican wife’s father kicking you out of your house, and telling you to go off and repent, but still send money. Only to find out, your wifes father, gave her to another man.! Think about that duane

  61. Yeah, pliggy’s never going to get his family back. That’s a shame. But what’s worse is that he’s still defending the criminals who cast him into outer darkness.

  62. LOL, Rattle and GFYN I am open to debate at any time. You can find my e-mail address from my Google account, (click on my name on one of my posts at Blue’s site) but put something about one of the blogs in the subject line or I might delete you as junk mail. 🙂

  63. Deputy, the UEP hearing is tomorrow – Wednesday.

  64. “If so, I can’t blame them one bit, if my brother left my family and started saying bad things about me and joined a group hell bent on my peer’s destruction…I would be quite hostile to them.”

    a) That says something very sad about you. You would be horrible to your own family member because they vocally disagree with you? You know, my sister was a very unhappy, very angry person who said many, many harsh things about our family. She hurt lots of people in my family. Some of what she said was true, some was histrionics based on hurt feelings. I always loved her and extended a hand of help and support whenever she reached out to me. I wonder how the FLDS, claiming to be “Christians” could do less.

    b) Cement, to the best of my knowledge, has joined no organizations and has only said what he either knew or suspected based on his own personal experiences. When he discovered that his speculation was inaccurate he admitted it and hasn’t continued to try and make anyone believe is error. (Something I’ve yet to see from you. I guess Cement is a better man than you.)

    “You are allowing yourself to be a pawn of the anti-polygamist crusaders assuming you have not renounced your general Mormon faith, I suspect you still basic beliefs are still intact as you said earlier your ex-flds wife still only wears “prairie dresses”.”

    He said his wife continues to dress in the FLDS fashion because she feels more comfortable doing so. In other words, it’s her choice, not his. You read too much into it. Cement has not shared his beliefs now except for the vague comment that he has found it somewhat sad and unsettling to discover that neither he nor his former church friends are any more special than anyone else.

  65. Duane: ” I’m not defending Warren Jeffs the individual, but the FLDS people in general”

    You can’t divorce the FLDS Prophet from the rank and file members. The only reason Jeffs ever had power to use & abuse is because they gave it to him. His crimes depended on their obedience and complicity. ‘First they came for the apostates, and I did not speak out….’

  66. You can’t divorce the FLDS Prophet from the rank and file members. The only reason Jeffs ever had power to use & abuse is because they gave it to him. His crimes depended on their obedience and complicity. ‘First they came for the apostates, and I did not speak out….’
    ==============================================
    You would force a church membership to keep in its ranks people who commit crimes that are against the tenets of its religion? You know, alcohol, drugs, pornography and various other sundry weaknesses that a lot of people exhibit.

  67. Anonymous, Thank you, I realized that after I posted it. Ive been tearing off a porch on a house today, think I got to much sun.

  68. Alinusara, Who is church for? Christ died for sinner, NOT the perfect. I don’t know a person alive, christain or non christian that doesn’t have weaknesses. Now if someone in FLDS was breaking the law, like robbing neighbors, molesting children, they should have been turned into Law Enforcement.
    Most of the Police officers were fired, because they didn’t turn sexual assaults into LE.

  69. You think God puts numbers on sin? To God all sin is sin, regardless what humans think. So that being true, NO ONE should be allowed to step inside a church.

  70. God says “keep your temple clean”. He didn’t mean the church building Alinusara, he was talking about the body, mind and soul.

  71. “You would force a church membership to keep in its ranks people who commit crimes that are against the tenets of its religion? You know, alcohol, drugs, pornography and various other sundry weaknesses that a lot of people exhibit.”

    If a church can’t show mercy and forgiveness to its own members, how can it show those virtues to the rest of the world?

    A “church” that doesn’t know how to forgive is not a church. It’s just a country club.

    When the Body of Christ can’t or won’t accept weakness and repentance (and the original Greek word for “repent” means to change the way you think), then Christ’s suffering and death on the cross were meaningless.

  72. Now if someone in FLDS was breaking the law, like robbing neighbors, molesting children, they should have been turned into Law Enforcement.
    ====================================================
    Aye. If I remember once the story came out about Flora Jessops father they drove him down to the nearest police station and promptly excommunicated him.
    ====================================================
    You think God puts numbers on sin? To God all sin is sin, regardless what humans think. So that being true, NO ONE should be allowed to step inside a church.
    ====================================================
    Actually a church is a body of believers; it can even be a cave. All believers are more then welcome in a church and most churches encourages non believers to attend as well to seek salvation.
    ======================================================
    God says “keep your temple clean”. He didn’t mean the church building Alinusara, he was talking about the body, mind and soul.
    =========================================================
    I’ve never argued otherwise.

  73. Well Duh duane I made the comparison between Warren Jeffs and Tony Alamo because of the obvious similarities that you called an attempt to smear the FLDS sect. Let’s play Pontius Pilate one of them can go free which one Duh duane and share with us why?

  74. Alinusara, “drove him down to the police station and excommuicated him”?
    They should of charged him right then with Sexual Assault, just making him leave Flds, allowed him to go free, to molest other people’s children

  75. To God all sin is sin, regardless what humans think
    ————————————————-
    Now I figured out how you had me confused. You are comparing crimes with sins. Criminal codes evolved thus rendering something that wasn’t a crime in the past; like owning slaves, into a crime today. Conversely, the opposite can occur. What was a crime yesterday; ie, interracial marriages, is no longer a crime today.

    Sins are a bit more complex to figure out since people interpretations of sins are based upon the criminal code that they have assimilated their entire life. Sins may not evolve like criminal codes because God , often referred to as “I am” does not evolve. It will take his infinite wisdom to sort it out come judgment day.

  76. He was eventually charged, but it took years.. something that should of been confronted immediately!

  77. “Aye. If I remember once the story came out about Flora Jessops father they drove him down to the nearest police station and promptly excommunicated him.”

    And yet the Barlow boy molesting his sister was simply rebaptised and sent to the YFZ ranch. Apparently they are more “law abiding” with some families than others.

    “All believers are more then welcome in a church and most churches encourages non believers to attend as well to seek salvation.”

    Not in the FLDS church. In fact, they don’t welcome you into their towns or let you visit their cemetaries either, from what I’ve seen.

  78. They should of charged him right then with Sexual Assault, just making him leave Flds, allowed him to go free, to molest other people’s children
    ===============================================
    Actually my friend they did press charges. Due to Flora’s numerous conflicting stories the judge in the case had no choice but to dismiss the charges.

  79. Alin,, excuse me, Flora’s father went to prison, the charges were NOT dismissed.

  80. whatever deputydog, he was dropped off at the police station…what more can you do? Once that was done it was out of their hands, the CC police don’t prosecute, the county does…yeah maybe it took years but the wheels of justice turn slowly. Allen Steed hasn’t gone to trial yet.

    CaJim, Sure Tony Alamo is fundy just like Warren but not a mormon.
    You can find plenty of similiarities between any 2 religious leaders. Also Tony Alamo group is personally defined by Tony Alamo.
    While Warren Jeffs is/was the latest FLDS prophet, he follows a line of predecessors. We don’t call FLDS members “Warren Jeffs ministries followers”. Yes the slang term “Warrenites” is used but basically that is something outsiders coined. The AUB members are referred to as “The Work” or AUB members not Allred ministries.

  81. duane, Sam Barlow Lost his accredidation to be a Police Chief because, He refuesed to report or turn in Child Abusers. Even though HE had gone through the State training program.
    He was supposed to be representing the laws of the State, NOT FLDS. Now quite being Stupid!

  82. duane, Centinnel Park, AUB were ALL at one time FLDS. They still ALL believe the same damn way, including marrying underage girls and practicing polygamy… They just split off and have different leaders. That’s the ONLY difference between the three groups,,”different Leaders, SAME beliefs.

  83. No duane to follow the line of his predecessors he wouldn’t be the bloodline of Rulon Jeffs. Joseph Smith and his son and grandson are a continuos line of Mormons, called the Reoganized Church of LDS, now called Community of Christ and they stayed East of the Mississippi. ‘The Work’ goes to the very beginning of the Mormon story and is tied to Josepn Smiths’ 1830s revelations. Warren Jeffs has modified the terms of the UEPTrust attempting to achieve ‘One Man Rule’ as a manifest axiom of physical real estate ownership as well as the Prophet owning his flock, just like sheep. Warren is following his revelation that the FLDS sect should now become a “scattered people” which has Biblical connotations that you don’t pay any attention to and therefore fail to grasp the base motives/beliefs behind why the Texas Exodus has transpired.

  84. Group sex is legal in New York? Who knew?

  85. Unless you pay for it, Greetings. Then I think the government gets upset because they don’t get any taxes for it. 😉

  86. Methinks Alin is a believer in Christ Jesus. I celebrate that; it’s far more important than anything we may disagree about.

    The question of whether a church should keep someone on their books who violates a fundamental tenet of the faith really speaks to Hugh McBryde’s problem. I confess I spend a lot of time thinking about him and praying for him and wondering how he does.

    Duane—get over the comparison between bigamy, polygamy and Lawrence v. Texas. The latter was concerned with private behavior; polygamy and bigamy laws are about the form of the family.

  87. Rebeckah, I’ve never needed to pay for sex and don’t plan to start now.

  88. GFNY trying to reason with duane and he rejects religion is like a warranty company trying to deal with a consumer whom refuses to read the Owners Manual. No matter how much you explain, demonstrate and cajole he just plain ain’t gonna buy it.

  89. Hey, Brooke wrote “Several thousand FLDS members are expected to gather outside the court to signal their objection to the sale and to Lindberg’s recent ruling rejecting a proposal that would have returned trust property to the FLDS church…”

    How many do you suppose will actually show up?

  90. Fifteen?

  91. Donut Willie counts as at least two. 😉

  92. Cajim, while what you said was interesting about the Reformed church it dosn’t make a damn bit of difference to how the FLDS people are treated. Yes I know the AUB, CP split off from the FLDS. It seems that Warren was right about a number of things even if some were self fulfilling prophecies. I’ve been researching quite a bit since the raid, I read an article from 2003 where Shirtleff publicly states he is going to arrest Warren Jeffs, other posts from 2004 from commentors accurately stating that the UEP will be seized, I don’t have the links handy but you can research it yourself and will just have to take my word for it. Warren Jeff’s deciding to launch a diaspora into Texas, CO, SD, Nevada, perhaps OK according you guys, is was actually a great idea in hindsight, it they drive them out of short creek and throw them off their land that is rightfully theirs since their forefathers established it for fundamentalists (reminds me how we robbed the Mexican Vaqueros of their land in California after the Mexican Cession), anyway they have other places they can go to. I hope they purchase more property in Eldorado and become civic minded and exercise their right to vote, also settle more of their people in Westcliff, more Amish are moving there so they shouldn’t have a problem with Fundy Mormons either, perhaps the amish and mormons could get together and vote out the bigot scum currently in that town. You know what I’m talking talking about CaJim, from the topix board last year.

    GFNH, according to an article last year, an Amish man in Westcliffe was quoted “we are thrilled to have them here”, I assume “we” being the Amish in Westcliffe, so no not all amish hate Fundy Mormons, sorry you have to hear that.

  93. GFNY, if you do a little research, several thousand flds showed up at the last Barry Knoll hearings. So who knows, maybe it will happen again, but since SLC is furthur away, probably not as many FLDS will be there.

  94. I remember you telling me about that Amish dude from Westcliffe but not actually seeing the quote myself—mind linking to it?

  95. No, Duh duane it was approaching hundreds toward a thousand and some Centennial Parkers and Kingstons were in the mix. Paul Kingston is going to supply banners for the unwashed to carry, like BillM, too funny. Willie’s is going to supply all of the hot air and I am sure the subpoena servers will be out in force. Should be a banner day within the courtroom while the UEPTrust is served notice on American Law & Order, too bad you can’t make duane you’d learn a thing or two.

  96. Welcome rgh! Enjoy the forum. Glad to have you.

  97. Cajim, the UEP was established by fundamentalist mormons, land purchased by them, none of the benes were given title, all were aware that the property was communally owned and if they violated the church tenets they were subject to eviction as they did not own the property, the vast majority of FlDS are still there, it is there property and the govt. has no right to take it from them.

  98. Here you go GFNY, btw how do you feel about Woodrow Wilson, was he a good presiden, what about when he fired black federal employees left and right and segrated dining facilities in Washington DC, he had good reasons for that and said blacks should be grateful as it was for their own good. You agree with that GFNY, how about when a black journalist questioned him on that and Woodrow Wilson threw him out of his office, hey at the time most all white people agreed with Prez wilson since they didn’t know what diseases blacks could be spreading just as when CPS wouldn’t use the same bathrooms as FLDS mothers while they were in the Colisium as whey didnt’ know what diseases those filthy FLDS women were carrying.

    For a small county, Custer has a remarkable religious diversity. There are at least 10 different denominations in Westcliffe, including a Mennonite community and a growing Amish presence that includes a new furniture store on Main Street.

    “We’re thrilled to have them,” said Burtt of the Amish.

    Some feel that way about the FLDS. Neighbors Frank and Yvonne Wierzba said fear of the unknown set off the clamor.

    “What we saw were very kind, honest, hard-working people,” said Frank Wierzba

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy1010.html

  99. “it is there property and the govt. has no right to take it from them.”

    The government has the right to take the money which drug dealers amass, it has the right to take the property that mob/mafia/organized crime members amass, so just what makes you think it can’t take property which has been used to punish people for not illegally marrying their daughter’s off and is used to hide and provide for those who would enter into illegal families? We get the messge — you think the government should tiptoe around the FLDS because you, personally, like them. Should they tiptoe around the next Talaban enclave that wants to set up shop? Maybe the group of Islamic Fundamentalists who decide to declare a Jihad? How about the Skinheads who want to physically harm anyone who doesn’t meet THEIR standards of morality? Because it’s their religious right to practice the tenets of their faith, right? And, of course, the evil, nasty government has no right to impose laws and enforce them. Yay Anarchy!

    Of course, you, Mudpucky, Pharasee and the like would be the first to die when anarchy rules. Have fun.

  100. duane

    The UEP predates the FLDS by decades. Its often been in litigation with one side winning and others losing.

    Are you thinking this is going to change in our lifetimes?

  101. duane you kind of got it in a jumble, the Amish when it comes down to their base beliefs will oppose polygamy and the entire Book of Mormon, so that has a far greater risk of turning into the Hatfields and McCoys than Moses and Aaron. How do the FLDS church just overnight become politically savve and astute to Texas, Colorado, South Dakota politicians, it will take generations and a total shift in their makeup. You don’t buy that Warren Jeffs reveals that God is telling him that the Warrenites are to become scattered, it just isn’t a good idea that Warren dreamt up, you might think it is a happen-chance but they see it as Divine guidance. Your comment about ‘bigot scum’ goes more to the heart of one of the greatest axioms that must change and that is seeing the outside world as ‘Gentiles’ and ‘Evil’ sorry but that raises an invisible wall that is indoctrinated into every FLDS believer. duane right now the FLDS sect is so caught up in the fight that they don’t see the future clearly. I am so disappointed with the UEPTrust negotiations the FLDS community is at risk in the balance and they are too inflexible to have a ‘meeting of the minds’. Do you remember Willie and Merril’s depositions trying to release as little information as possible and being as resistant as a Nazi war crime witness at Nuremburg.
    You talk about stealing the UEPTrust land well frauds were committed under Warren Jeffs watch and how many apostates have lost out to the UEPTrust and the FLDS Church, yet you only discuss the active Warrenites rights and dismiss the other parties rights completely. How is that going to bring negotiations to a win-win agreement? duane when the Warrenites first came to Eldorado they said they were planning a hunting lodge then they admitted that they were the FLDS Church and would form a community of less than 200 residents, these representations have been disproven. You can research this yourself but you haven’t shared anything today that is new to me.

  102. ” so that has a far greater risk of turning into the Hatfields and McCoys than Moses and Aaron.”

    Well, not really. The Amish are pacafists. It is a central tenet of their faith. (And much more socially acceptable than the polygyny that is a central tenet to Mormonism, oddly enough.)

  103. Scanning too fast to read all the comments. My personal belief is that those that talk don’t know and those that know ain’t talking.

    I’ve already said enough about my leaving to have it twisted around by Duane; I’m not falling for that trap again. Anything I say can and will be used against me.

  104. No reason you should reveal more, Cement. You have already shown yourself to have more integrity and worth than either Duane or Pliggy. You only spread rumors once, that I know of, and you thought what you were saying was true and were man enough to own up to your mistake when you realized you were wrong. That’s more than I’ve seen from either Pliggy or Duane. And by all means, keep popping on with your little gems. I always find your comments succinct and either informative or thought provoking (or both).

  105. One thing people forget is that I didn’t start that rumor. I panicked when reading the rumor on texaspolygamy.blogspot.com and had a “ah-hah” moment. An analogy would be someone told to dig holes in their back yard under secrecy not knowing what they will be used for. They leave the religion and later Flora comes along with a rumor about baby graves, and they dig in the back-yard and discover bones and spread a fowl (pun intended) rumor.

  106. Rebeckah I guess I gave a bad analogy, maybe they won’t mix well like oil and vinegar. FLDS Mormonism has Polygamy as a central tenet, LDS Mormons have disavowed polygamy for over 100+Years. The FLDS Church has several sacred texts beyond the Book of Mormon that the Amish will not abide them as scriptural texts.

  107. Cement, you acknowledge that the crematorium story was bunk and you fell for it, how many other alleged FLDS atrocities are likewise bunk?

  108. The FLDS and Amish are similiar, both quite insular and apart from the mainstream, similiar dress, devoutly religious, history of hostility being directed against them. Differences are that the Amish get a pass on educating their kids, also a pass on employing children in work involving machinery and dangerous equipment, the Fundy mormons get hammered for allegedly denying members Television thought allowing internet access, autos, vacations, computers. Amish even ban electricity and banishment and shunning is accepted by us gentiles. Oh the bias and bigotry.
    Pastel prairie dresss = Sinister evil
    Dark blue/black prairie dresses = Wholesome goodness

  109. “One thing people forget is that I didn’t start that rumor. I panicked when reading the rumor on texaspolygamy.blogspot.com and had a “ah-hah” moment.”

    No, I didn’t forget that, I didn’t know it. Thanks for the heads up. I’ll remember that. 😉

  110. “Cement, you acknowledge that the crematorium story was bunk and you fell for it, how many other alleged FLDS atrocities are likewise bunk?”

    Oh please, Duane, what a jerk you are. You’ve been caught out in so much bunk and you don’t even have the masculinity to own up to it but instead skulk off until you think everyone has forgotten and then come back to start more garbage. Please, go kiss your cousin some more or something. That’s about your level of activity anyway.

  111. “The FLDS and Amish are similiar, both quite insular and apart from the mainstream, similiar dress, devoutly religious, history of hostility being directed against them.”

    More accurate to say that they share SOME similarities. They are fundamentally quite different. The bloodthirsty undertone of the FLDS faith would repel pretty much every Amish who knew of it, for one thing.

    “Differences are that the Amish get a pass on educating their kids,”

    No, they are required to give them at least an 8th grade education. Not what I’d like to see, but two years beyond that which many of the young men have received in the FLDS.

    “also a pass on employing children in work involving machinery and dangerous equipment,”

    Part of the Amish faith is to shun modern equipment. Just what machinery and “dangerous” equipment do you think they’re using? Granted, a horse CAN be dangerous, but I imagine the Amish children grown up knowing the safety rules, just like I did.

    “the Fundy mormons get hammered for allegedly denying members Television thought allowing internet access, autos, vacations, computers.”

    Yeah, I got hammared for denying my children TV too. Some people have an obsession with electronic media. It isn’t something special to the FLDS, no matter how unique and persecuted they want to feel about it.

    “Amish even ban electricity and banishment and shunning is accepted by us gentiles.”

    They DO NOT banish their underage children. They allow their children a year of absolute freedom, as legal adults, to explore the “English” culture before they make their committment to the faith. Yes, if an Amish person breaks the rules they can be shunned, which is far more inhumane that many people realize, but in comparison to the abandonment of 13, 14, on up young men and the arranged marriages of girls in the same age, there’s no comparison.

    “Oh the bias and bigotry.”

    Yes, we know you are both biased and bigoted.
    Pastel prairie dresss = Sinister evil
    Dark blue/black prairie dresses = Wholesome goodness”

  112. so any bets on whether or not mudpuppy will show up in utah? i promised to over on his blog.

  113. He’s been inactive today on his website, so I think he’s going to show at the Matheson Courthouse and I hope he is in for one hell’uva surprise.

  114. You know, even YFZ bozos have to know what the usual behavior in cemeteries is, and reasons for visitors. Good grief they’re descendants of LDS the biggest promoters of genealogy ever there was. There are folks who photograph headstones of myriad strangers and put the photos online at ancestry.com or rootsweb for researchers’ use, for example. I think it’s fun to make a picnic out of going on national holiday remembrance days just to see who comes, to walk up and introduce myself to people older than I, for another.

  115. Duane—the quote did NOT say an Amish man liked the FLDS (as you said)—it said a Westcliffe man was thrilled to have a new Amish community in their midst. And that another Westcliffe couple thought that what they’ve seen so far of the FLDS has been fine.

    I didn’t think it was likely that an Amish Mennonite could look past the polygamy thing.

  116. Granny Toad, here are some of the reasons I’ve visited cemeteries:

    • To picnic;
    • To visit the grave of the man who built my parents’ house;
    • To pay my respects to famous figures from the past (in particular, Susan B. Anthony and Frederick Douglass);
    • As part of historical junkets, especially Boston’s Freedom Trail;
    • As a tourist;
    • To look at funerary art;
    • To appreciate autumn scenery;
    • To teach my daughter to drive;
    • For work.

  117. I live in a VERY historical place and the cemeteries here are on the tour bus stops, people from all across this nation and tourist from other countries come here and pay to take tours of our cemeteries. At night they do “ghost” tours of our cemeteries (and other national historic sites). Professors and college students come to our cemeteries to study the archaeology. National cemetery conferences are held at our cemeteries. All of these are “usual” reasons to visit a cemetery.

  118. I hope that any process server with summons to be served on flds men and women are at the rally today. Also police officers with any outstanding warrants on flds people should be scanning the crowd.. In addition any men who were exed and have had no contact with their children and wives should show up. PS, bring plenty of paddy wagons

  119. LOL, GFNY, I also taught my daughter how to drive in a cemetery. They have “roads”, some even have stop signs and the “people” there didn’t seem to mind that she was a “student driver”.

  120. Duane, the struggles for racial and gender equality is not the same as the struggle for acceptance of alternative sexual rights, and it is insulting to pretend otherwise.

    Skin color and gender are fundamental facts of existence. Even Michael Jackson couldn’t change them, although he tried.

    (Notwithstanding, I love this joke: “Only in America could a poor black boy grow up to be a rich white woman.”)

    I’m not going to justify Woodrow Wilson’s attitude toward race; it was abhorrent. But he was the son of a Virginia slave owner, was a southern boy during the Civil War, and was raised in the Reconstruction South, so it’s no surprise he had baggage. (For the record, NAACP founder W.E.B. Du Bois campaigned for him in 1918.)

    Sexual behavior is a choice. Even if you believe some parts of it are genetic, acting out on sexual impulses is still volitional. (As is acting out on weird religious impulses.)

    Utah’s constitution says:

    “The following ordinance shall be irrevocable without the consent of the United States and the people of this State…

    “Perfect toleration of religious sentiment is guaranteed. No inhabitant of this State shall ever be molested in person or property on account of his or her mode of religious worship; but polygamous or plural marriages are forever prohibited.”

    Said ban was upheld in Utah v. Holm in 2006. The court specifically addressed the question of whether it applied only to public (licensed) marriage or private (unlicensed) marriages. Your argument that banning polygamy is an intrusion on privacy was trashed, smashed and thrashed by the court. (See Chief Justice Christine Durham’s dissenting opinion, which raised much the same objections you have, and which was overruled, 4-1.)

  121. GFNY: I think you are asking deci skinwalker duaneh1 to do more than he is capable of doing. That is, to use logic and to be objective. His passions get in his way so he ends up either trying to justify illegal and abhorrent flds practices (under age marriage) or denys that they exist (lost boys, etc). However,
    I do admire and applaud your efforts.

  122. GFNY very concise and impressive posting! Whoa, brains and beauty what a wonderful combination. If you don’t mind my asking are you a scratch golfer, too? I just trust that your intended postee isn’t deaf to your comment.

  123. LadySadie, our cemeteries have hills, too, which are great for teaching kids to drive standards.

    Alewife, I love the idea of bringing paddy wagons to the rally. (I think Duane knows he’s painted himself into a corner, but isn’t ready to admit it yet.)

    Jim, alas, I have never golfed. But I do love PG Wodehouse’s golf stories. Thanks for the kind words; I do wish I hadn’t made a grammar error in the first sentence though.

  124. Bosu, Whad’um beauty Creole sistah, stir it up, now. Hold on to de right to ledd go dah wrong. Flowin’ wadda in de river duh not wait farr de thirstee mon. Lemme’ ave a lil bit of dat Zion knowin’. Sambo sistah yu bobo ashanti? Wha da yu tink, yuh be my new moiru, maybe. No worry and no make trouble den double. On Life, One Love Jah Bengie

  125. Good heavens, I very nearly understood Jamaika’s post. And I agree totally with the principle of holding on to the right to let go of past wrongs.

    I am not Rasta in any form, Jamaika. Haile Selassie was a fascinating man, but there is only one true God.

  126. I think I caught 80% of j’s meaning. That is far better than normal so I must be getting more used to it. Good Morning GFNY and j.

  127. Jah, grant yu wisdom from above star sistah. I teach yu nuff a whole heap about Rasta, Blessed Y’shua and Royal Solomonic Dynasty. No true? No, no one cyann test wid Haile Sellaisse, he Royal Rasta Kingmon. Chemical mon, bright mornin’ sun brotha!
    More time Jessum Peez Bengie

  128. wonder who’s going to get the golden tickets to be inside. since willie and friends were found not to be parties, i’m guessing they won’t.

  129. A new article in the SLT stated tht there were only 7 public passes. No word on whether BManure or Huge ego McBryde have shown up. McBryde probably won’t make it due to financial constraints

  130. i hope if mudpuppy is there, there will be a picture of him cuz i’m not going to believe he’s showed up otherwise.

  131. According to Brookes blog there are thousands of Flds and people at the Court House outside

  132. Oh and Willie was seen at the front of the line with a Chocalate Donut!!! HAHAHAHAHHA

  133. Yeah and according to desert news hundreds (not thousands) have shown up

  134. Deseret News..
    Mark Shurtleff said this today about Lindberg.

    ****************
    “Her very ruling isn’t religiously neutral because it doesn’t take into consideration the vast majority of the people,” Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff said Monday. “It benefits the non-religious, which is a small minority, to the detriment of the majority, who are FLDS.”

    ********************
    Has he lost his frigging mind??? What benefits did it have for non-flds people? NADA!

  135. Who the hell do these people think they are discriminating against anyone who isn’t FLDS???

  136. All Flds need to do now is cover themselves with White Sheets.

  137. I thought Willie Jessop was NOT a spokesperson for the FLDS. I guess he’s only the official spokesperson when it comes to the media, but not when it comes to government officials. I wish the media would stop interviewing him.

    Does anyone know who his alleged new bride is? Someone mentioned he married a girl who was either underage or of limited mental capacity.

  138. Willie is the Official FLDS Lower Kingdom Orifice, when he lets loose, go to the next room or outdoors!

  139. “Has he lost his frigging mind??? What benefits did it have for non-flds people? NADA!”

    Shirtleff and the FLDS proposal set aside property for non-flds.
    You guys don’t seem to understand that the UEP is private property established by and for fundie mormons. You can discriminate on private property. A Baptist church retreat can discriminate against non baptists, same with property owned by a Buddahist monastery. If a Buddahist is kicked out he has no right to the property as he never owned in the first place. Same with UEP, the individual benies have no right to take title of the land, at most they should be compensated for any money they personally invested in the property. Mormons do not allow non-mormons to enter temples or do ceremonies, same thing applies here.

  140. Then you should be happy to have Berry Knoll sold to the Centennial Park group, as they too are Fundie Mormons and, in fact, have ancestors who also contributed to the UEP, Duane. So what’s the problem, fundie Mormons will still own the land.

  141. R: duane deci discriminates regarding mormon fundie polygamy groups. AUB are bad, Davis county cooperative society is bad, Flds are good, Centenniel Park is bad. deci swkinwalker has his flds heros and he will stick with them until they are all in jail, the UEP property is sold off, etc. He is more loyal to the flds leadership than many flds members.

  142. Duane, Ron in Houston (who is, actually, a lawyer) answered your objection here:

    http://fldslegal.blogspot.com/2009/07/uep-yfz-catch-22.html

    Judge Lindberg concurred with Ron’s opinion a few weeks later.

  143. ale wife, I have nothing against the AUB, Davis County, or CP and support them as well. All of the factions need to find some common ground and present a united front against the mob.

    BTW, the deseret news has posted some photos in their article, I see a lot of young men. That is weird cuz I thought they kicked them all out.

  144. I already read that post GFNY. Yeah they took over and restated the trust to make it discriminatory against the FLDs.
    Nothing but an outright land grab attempt.

  145. duane

    ” That is weird cuz I thought they kicked them all out.”

    Pay attention. Warren kicks out the men and boys he wants to kick out. NO ONE said he kicked ALL of them out. You serve yourself to show your ignorance.

    Also

    How can it be a land grab when Lindberg wants to give the homes to the FLDS and exFLDS alike?

    It’s THEIR fault if they wont take title. The “FLDS” church (warren jeffs) doesnt have standing, but the people do, how is that a land grab? You are either a bene or you are not.

    I realize that the fairyland the FDLS live in makes them think they will always win out, just because they stole the land from CP fair and square years ago.

    Or did you know that?

    Now they might lose a little back, you call foul? Where were you last time this was in litigation?

  146. Go for it, Mark Shurtleff—hang your political career on protecting the questionable right of the FLDS to control a trust its leader abandoned. Hang it on not enforcing a constitutional requirement of your state, mandated by the Federal government.

    Utah grows steadily less Mormon as America moves west. There are around 230,000 enrolled Catholics in Utah, several times more than the state’s fundie population. The Evangelical and Protestant communities are also large and growing.

    Let’s see how these new voters, who aren’t conditioned to tolerate polygamy, respond at the polls.

  147. What Duane doesn’t understand is that the court oversight of the trust is a done deal; there is no going back to the halcyon days of 1942, when the original members pooled their property out back of nowhere and nobody much cared. The destruction of the trust was engineered by Warren Jeffs himself, with the tacit agreement of the FLDS rank-and-file.

    The Court suspended the trustees because:

    • They failed to defend against lawsuits filed against the trust;
    • The principals were transferring real estate and other property from the trust to their own private cookie jar.

    While the court has ruled that the trust cannot be structured to benefit polygamy, it has also held that “whether an individual participates in polygamy… cannot be used by trustees as a criterion in determining beneficiaries’ ‘needs’ or ‘just wants.’”

    (http://www.ueptrust.com/UEPTImages/UEP-AnswerstoQuestions.)

    To me that is absolute neutrality.

    Wee Willie’s protestations to the contrary arise from his own desire to crack open the trust and extract a few nuggets for himself. I expect a tantrum of some kind when he is thwarted.

  148. GFNY: You are on a roll. love your posts on the UEP and polygamy tolerancwe in Utah.

  149. If only the FLDS paid attention instead of tithes.

  150. Chemist, Duane never answers my factual rebuttals. But he at least changes the subject, which is something.

    Duane, you’re always telling me what a healthy lifestyle theirs is. I’m not one to bash people for obesity, but this man has been in the oats:

    http://www.kutv.com/Photo.aspx?content_id=f79a852e-56b3-4188-b693-f6da2027cf5e&i=1

    (Or is this the mysterious Mudpuppy?)

  151. GFNY,

    I love your posts too. I wish Duane would read and comprehend sometimes vs. just reading and arguing but I will be the first to say you have shown remarkable patience with him. 🙂

  152. Ben Winslow just twittered that “At FLDS rally, everybody gathered around podium and is now quiet. Is something about to happen?”

  153. I’ve said before that I like Duane, and I like Hugh McBryde as well. Even if I didn’t, I’m obligated to extend the same love and forbearance to them that Jesus extends to me.

    (And I’ll be the first to admit I do that unevenly, as Linda Lamb could attest.)

  154. LadySadie, I’m not finding Winslow’s Twitters—can you give me a link?

    Why is there a podium?

  155. Thousands… OK, hundreds… of polygamists queuing on the courtroom steps.

    Judging from the rap sheets DD digs up, they probably couldn’t find enough licensed drivers to haul themselves north from Short Creek.

  156. Ben Winslow Twitter update: Anyone could buy land. For temple or farming or housing or whatever

    http://twitter.com/BenWinslow

  157. this is ben’s twitter
    http://twitter.com/BenWinslow

  158. Winslow just twittered:

    “FLDS man tells crowd ‘You have the convictions to take us into the presence of our Heavenly Father.'”

    They’re certainly working on it.

  159. And see the sixth photo in the Deseret News’ gallery, here:

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705319838/Hundreds-of-FLDS-gather-outside-courthouse.html?linkTrack=rss-32

    What was that nonsense we heard about not letting children eat cereal because it’s not healthy?

  160. I just posted on both trusts and Shurtleff’s comments on my blog…

    This is too much fun.

  161. I guess Trent must not have been able to make the rally with Brooke, all the other news stations have plenty of photos but only one for the “Polygamy” reporter?

  162. Blues

    You keep driving spikes into their arguments. Quite entertaining!

    ( But is it fair? LOL )

  163. Lady

    It was Brooke and Trents best biggest chance, and if they have a good story, its yet to bubble up.

    HMMM those pesky Editor reviews – make sure the story doesnt pet the FLDS fur too much…

    LMAO

  164. BTW

    What so many people fail to realize is that this could have already been resolved. The FLDS take title to their homes, Bruce Wisan goes away. He offered a very reasonable, legal plan.

    The FLDS INSIST on an illegal and unworkable plan. Since they like to pay attorneys (for some odd reason) they would rather litigate this in circles till its cut to the bone.

    Who’s fault is all this? The man sits in prison. A KSL reporter erroniously claimed “Jeffs claimed Berry Knolls is a Temple site” and no such thing happened, but rather, if this reporter had paid attention, would have noted that Jeffs claimed the UEP and the people whom remained in Shortcreek are “Rejected of God”.

    To date there hasnt been any FLDS whom will address these comments from Warren, found in his dictations, as they obviously erode any FLDS position.

    Are they following him or are they not?

    Does anyone know? On KSL a Harker claims they are following “The Leader” but he didnt have the guts to spit out his name.

    http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=7334782

  165. GFNY said:Judging from the rap sheets DD digs up, they probably couldn’t find enough licensed drivers to haul themselves north from Short Creek….
    WHat?? No Baptist busses available today for the trip??

  166. Air conditioned Baptist buses!

    Air conditioned Baptist buses!

    Air conditioned Baptist buses!

    Air conditioned Baptist buses!

    Air conditioned Baptist buses!

  167. All they needed to do was ask…

  168. Stamp said: On KSL a Harker claims they are following “The Leader” but he didnt have the guts to spit out his name.
    It’s like they’re part of a Harry Potter movie…..”He who shall not be named…” HA!!

  169. Hundreds of FLDS gather at courthouse

    By Linda Thomson and Emiley Morgan

    Deseret News
    Published: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 3:16 p.m. MDT
    31 comments

    Richard Ream, who is one of seven people who sued the FLDS Church, said the trust’s assets should, among other things, be used to help the young people who were shoved out into the world with substandard educations and no money. Ream said it is important that the division of assets and money be done by someone religiously neutral, not people who subjectively decide “who is worthy and who is not worthy.”

    Others, however, were tearful as they described how the Berry Knoll property is considered sacred because they said it was consecrated for eventual construction as a temple and serves to unite FLDS members.

    “The farm is more than a farm — it’s a community,” said Mary Harker, who said she taught at an FLDS school on the property until it was padlocked, she said, at the request of the state. “It’s an important part of my faith.”

    Memory Older agreed, adding that the land is sacred and was set aside “for the use of the Lord’s storehouse and to build it up.”

    FLDS leader and spokesman Willie Jessop sharply criticized Wisan and the judge, and suggested neither was interested in what the many FLDS people who came to the courthouse had to say, despite Lindberg’s comments that she has repeatedly “begged” for input from the FLDS community over the years and had little or no response.

    Jessop hinted that what is going on is nothing more than religious persecution.

    “Do the just needs and wants of the 4,000 people here mean anything to you?” Jessop asked the judge. As for Wisan, Jessop said the accountant “won’t even shake my hand.”
    Story continues below

    “This is a religious test,” Jessop declared. “The trust allowed the people suing it to rewrite it. There is no judicial integrity. What has this fiduciary (Wisan) ever done for these people?”

    Jessop said there were “great rewards” for those who hate the FLDS and the lawyers, but nothing for the community’s faithful.

    “I think we’re just one step away from signing an extermination order,” Jessop said.

    WILLIE HOW ARE THE COWS DOING???????????????

  170. Well, Willie, get on with it and sign it, then!

  171. Where is this “extermination order” that fat willie is talking about? Is his name first on the list?

  172. ““I think we’re just one step away from signing an extermination order,” Jessop said.””

    So much for being “a peaceful people” – now they make threats?

    Are we gonna replay the Danite manifesto?

    I hear echos!!!

    But surely the stronger minds in the FLDS know that such a thing would be political suicide.

    Just saying it is. Willie has shown his true colors!

  173. Has Willie been taking drama lessons? For someone who says he isn’t a spokesman for the FLDS, [right? didn’t he say that?] he sure flaps his mouth alot.

  174. I heard him say it, Soozie. Under oath in the Texas State Capitol. He did.

  175. Hey Stamp,

    I could be wrong, but they way the comment reads: “Jessop said there were “great rewards” for those who hate the FLDS and the lawyers, but nothing for the community’s faithful.

    “I think we’re just one step away from signing an extermination order,” Jessop said.”

    ….I think the obtuse, obese, tongue-twisted blowhard meant to imply that he thinks the *Court* is one step away from signing an extermination order for the FLDS. (Remember how they love to quote that they are persecuted by Baptist Nazis…the fruits of an 8th grade education)

  176. dang. ” the way the comment…”

  177. LE should take his threat seriously. The FLDS wouldnt be the first nutcase religion to cause mayhem, suicide, havoc and murder.

    It seems they are riding the fence line on craziness. If Wisan speaks too loudly they might explode in a frenzy.

  178. sounds to me Like Willie ran out of donuts and is getting grouchy! LOL

  179. Well all them women getting out of that van, sure have been eatin good, look at thier size, even the prairie dresses can’t hide the fat.

  180. Anybody spot Bill Mudpucky? LOL

  181. Stamp,

    I can’t imagine how stupidly they would enact a scene of violence. By shooting themselves in the head? with a baptist gun to show how persecuted they are.

  182. DD…I think it’s unlikely that the slender *chosen* have trekked out from Texas to attend the ‘rally’. I’d imagine these are examples of the *discarded by God*.

  183. Well they brought lawn chairs and food, and all the grannies,, LOL High old time on the court house lawn…. Hope they throw their litter away. LOL

  184. Why is Judge Lindberg listeing to all this shit again?? She heard this back in November!

  185. Awh good ole Wiilie in pictures as USUAL flinging his arms around

  186. At least they brought parasols (golf umbrellas actually, but still kind of cute).

    What are the odds that Wee Willie Timpson Jessop can either spell or define “fiduciary”?

    Followers numbering in the low-to-several hundreds showed up. Where are the other 3600 people Wee Willie purports to speak for?

  187. You can tell alot about a person’s body language, when looking through ALL the pictures at KSL, how many noticed so many people standing or sitting with their arms folded?? That’s a sign of a very CLOSED person.

  188. Did any of you see the picture of Winston Blackmore talking? How did he get permission to come from Canada, last I heard he had to surrender his passport.

  189. You don’t suppose Mudpuppy was one of the two guys who threw themselves in front of a train a few blocks from the courthouse, do you?

  190. LOL GFNY

  191. I have a question, have they never heard of irons in Short Creek? Every one of the FLDS men that spoke at the hearing looked like they had wadded up their shirts thrown them in a pile for a few months and then decided to give them a shake and wear them wrinkles and all. The little ladies too busy braiding each others hair to iron their masters shirts?

  192. Willie always manages to make such an absolute fool of himself, he’s got a real talent for it.

    Hey buddy can you spare a donut?

  193. I thought I saw Zavenda Johnson Young Jessop the one and only wife good enought to go to Zion, wife of Edson Jessop YFZ greeting and hugging as she walked up in the KLS video. Looks like she dyed her hair.

  194. It reminds me of a scene from a movie shot in the woods of upstate New York that I saw 40 years ago, but this one is an updated version called Polygstock. Where was the music?

  195. Actually, the Berry Knoll land should be given back to the native Americans because it was the site of an Indian massacre during the Black Hawk War. The FLDS stole the land from the Indians!

  196. So, wasn’t each “side” allowed to have 5 people testify today. Did anyone else notice that one of the speakers for the FLDS was Dan Barlow? He is shown in a photo on KSL.com at the podium inside the courtroom and also sitting in the gallery in front of Willie and sneering.

    I find it quite interesting that a man whom Warren kicked out 5 years ago would be one of the chosen 5 FLDS to testify at today’s hearing.

    hmmmmmmm.

  197. And not only did Warren kick Dan Barlow (the mayor of Hildale) out, but he did it publicly and in a very humiliating way during church services. And now this guy is testifying for the FLDS? On whose orders?????

  198. So if the land is up for bid to the highest bidder, do you think you can just bid on one acre parcels?

  199. Well Anon, I figure it’s easy to get someone to testify, if you tell them they can return to Flds. Right?

  200. So, now we have had another hearing, so I guess everyone waits another 6 months for Lindberg’s answer….. sucks!!

  201. No, Lindberg will issue a ruling soon, within a week I’m sure. It would have caused a riot at the court house today if she had issued her ruling approving the sale of Berry Knoll, but that is clearly what she is going to do

  202. WILLIE HOW ARE THE COWS DOING???????????????

    Anonymous said this on July 29, 2009 at 5:01 PM (edit)

    ————

    ROFLMAO!!

    Moo …..

  203. OOPS, Dan Barlow was the mayor of Colorado City. David Zitting is (and has been FOREVER) the mayor of Hildale.

    This is some background info on Dan Barlow taken from 2 articles regarding the YFZ ranch.

    ST. GEORGE — Former Colorado City mayor Dan Barlow — ousted from the FLDS Church in early 2004 by Warren Jeffs and asked to leave his family and community behind — is heartsick over the news he is hearing from Texas.

    “I’m not a member any longer (of the church). I was cut off, but I have to speak out,” said Barlow, 75…

    That all changed in 2004. Sect leader Warren Jeffs excommunicated Barlow, his son and 18 others, forcing them out of their homes and away from their families. Last month, his four youngest children were taken by Texas authorities in a raid many call a modern Short Creek.

    “I know what it feels like,” said Barlow, 76, easily the oldest father – and perhaps the only grandfather – involved in the landmark child-custody case, the largest in U.S. history. “I know the emotions. I know the feelings.”

    Barlow doesn’t know whether his wife, a sect member, will get her children back. If not, he said, he would gladly take them. He doesn’t know whether that will be possible either.

    He finally visited his four children, who range in age from 4 to 13, last week after being unable to contact them since shortly after his excommunication – the reasons for which he says he still doesn’t know.

    The oldest recognized him. The younger three only knew him from pictures.

    “They kind of grew up,” he said, waiting for his attorney on a bench in the Tom Green County Courthouse, sounding neither sad nor angry despite having every right to be. “The little ones didn’t even know me.

    So why was Dan Barlow one of the 5 chosen ones to testify on behalf of the FLDS in court today?

  204. Well Anon, I figure it’s easy to get someone to testify, if you tell them they can return to Flds. Right?

    deputydog1 said this on July 29, 2009 at 9:18 PM

    Are you referring to Dan Barlow testifying?

    I don’t think that today was a matter of “getting someone to testify”.

    I think today was a BIG day to try to get the RIGHT 5 someones to testify.

    And then there were 4 … because they had to let Willie get his camera time.

    So, why did Dan Barlow testify today? Was he in the “apostate” group? I don’t think so.

    And, Winston was there, too. Was he testifying for the Canadian IFLDS (Independent FLDS).

    What we need is someone to get the actual court transcript so we can follow the sequence of the hearing instead of relying on photographs to imply who did what for whom.

  205. We should be getting a transcript.

  206. I cannot get the Rick Ross ploygamy site to open for me this am, however I recall an article where Dan Barlow?? was interviewd by someone about the UEP and Berry Knoll. My memory is that Dan or his predeccesors may have been involved in acquiring Berry Knoll for the UEP.

  207. Chemist, (et al),
    Andrew Bistline wrote a concise and articulate history of the UEP/Berry Knoll problem on his “Texas Polygamy” website sometime during the past year. His version differed from the narratives currently being presented in Court, (as summarized by Brooke.) I can’t put my finger on it at the moment, but I know it is out there. I’ll try to find it later, like in a week or so when I’m not swamped. Best, j.

  208. Anonymous, Yes Dan Barlow was kicked out some 5 yrs ago. Brooke Adams did interview him last year about Berry Knoll. Even though he is xflds. Brooke said, Dan Barlow refused to answer any questions about how he felt about no longer being on Flds.
    I think at one time Berry Knoll belonged to the barlows, im not sure, but that some OLDER person in Flds maybe an dead prophet had said something about it being where the temple would be built.
    Flds have just ONE problem,, the Zion Temple has already been built in Texas

  209. This is from Brookes Blog:

    Dan Barlow was among 21 men ousted from the FLDS sect in 2004 by leader Warren S. Jeffs. He kept his distance. He kept his silence.

  210. You can read about Dan Barlow here about Berry Knoll.

    http://166.70.44.68/blogs/plurallife/2008/11/dan-barlow-and-berry-knoll/

  211. Too bad Brooke didn’t ask Dan why he was getting the welfare benefits for his 16-year-old son Gideon who was kicked out of the community by his new father after Dan was kicked out and his multiple families reassigned to other men.

    The family that took Gideon into their home so he wouldn’t be living on the street applied to get welfare benefits for Gideon and found out benefits were already being paid to Dan.

    Dan refused to sign over the benefits to this family for Gideon’s benefit. Dan said he needed the money to live on. He was STEALING the boy’s welfare benefits. Dan should have gone to jail.

  212. Yes, Dan has never, to my knowledge, said a harsh word about the FLDS. From what I understand, a lot who leave or are ex’d keep their silence, not because they actually believe in the church any longer, but because the fear and guilt mentality is so strong. I think it takes either a lot of anger or time to come to the point where you can stand up and tell the whole unvarnished truth about the religion that still tries to teach it’s young that Lying for the Lord is the right way to go.

    The Temple prophecy in regards to Berry Knoll was from a “prophet” who ended up in the Centennial Park group — if I remember correctly. So perhaps having that group buy the property will enable the prophecy of their prophet to come true, who knows? In the meantime, perhaps Dan’s family donated it to the UEP, but what do his other relatives feel about the situation? How many of them are now in the Centennial Park group? Maybe some of them would like a shot at building a home on the old family homestead. Dan can hardly speak for all of them. And nothing changes the fact that the Trust CANNOT be used any longer to force girls into marrying illegally and/or underage any more. I hope Lindberg is able to remain firm even though the FLDS have finally decided to drop the “answer them nothing” approach. In my opinion, their change of heart is several years too late. The UEP needs to be set up to benefit ALL who should be beneficiaries, not just the ones who meet the FLDS religious test.

  213. Joseph White Musser was the head of the priesthood council after John Y. Barlow died. Musser was the person who stated that there would one day be a temple on the Berry Knoll. Musser died in 1954, so this prophesy was made before 1954.

    So, that was 55 years ago. If the FLDS truly believed Musser, then why hasn’t there been a temple built there in the past 55 years?

    It’s all a bunch of hogwash they are throwing at the judge. They had no intent in ever building a temple on that land.

  214. Rebeccah, before Joseph Musser died, he named Rulon Allred as his successor to be head of the priesthood council.

    If I recall right the members of the council were Joseph Musser, his son Guy Musser, Marion Hammon, Alma Timpson, Rulon Jeffs, Charles Zitting and Louis Kelsch.

    Most of the members of the council did not want Rulon Allred to take over after Musser died. It caused the first split in “The Work” which formed into the AUB (Allred group) and the Colorado City group.

    The Centennial Park group was formed in the mid 1980’s after another split over the “One man rule” belief. LeRoy Johnson kicked Marion Hammon and Alma Timpson out of the group and they went across the highway and started the Centennial Park group.

  215. In the very early days of the Priesthood Council the sole reason they existed was to continue plural marriages. They were told by the original leaders, John and Lorin Woolley that they were NOT to form into groups or to set up the United Order. That was not their purpose. Their purpose was strictly to carry on polygamy and to make sure that “not one year passed without there being a child born into the Principle”.

    It was John Y. Barlow who insisted that his followers set up the United Effort Plan in order to live communally in the United Order. That was a Barlow thing. In fact, some of the Barlow followers left the group and joined up with the Allreds over this situation because they did not want to consecrate their land and live communally.

  216. Deputy dog: Thanks for the link to the Dan Barlow article. It is the article I was trying to remember. My memory failed me however; Dan Barlow and his family were involved in acquiring some land in Apple Valley for the trust, not in Berry Knoll. As others have pointed out, the “prophecy’ about a temple on Berry Knoll would have significance for the AUB, the CP and the FLDS. There may have been other group’s split off that would also believe in that prophesy. You think that if the CP deal goes through and a temple is built, they would let the flds also use it? Probably not. The flds are the apostates in the eyes of the CP and the AUB.

  217. My memory may be ineexact or plain wrong but wasn’t Willie the Lying Thug Jessop also kicked out of FLDS? While he testified under oath that he spoke for nobody but himself that mouth in his other lying face keeps yapping. Are they buying back in?

    Why make such a big deal about Berry Knoll anyway, if it never paid for itself, instead required $$ subsidy? Do they need that lie to keep sucking $ out of the stupid and faithful or ??

  218. I am not aware that Willie was ever exed. However when he was under oath in a Texas courtroom he said that he did not speak for the flds church, was not in the leadership of the flds church and that he could speak only for himself. Which is why I think it is a waste of time for Shurtleff or anyone else to negotiate with Willie.

  219. The big deal is that if they wear everybody out on this issue and the need to conform to external court orders then they can pretty much gain control of the situation.

  220. Plus this issue can be spun in a very favorable light (kicking out poor homeless women and children and stealing sacred land etc.) when some of the other court battles can not be spun so well so this is a good one to wear out the political will of LE

  221. HHG

    I see the property going to sale, or perhaps the Harker farms, which wasnt even UEP land when Wisan took over.

    If the FLDS find it hard to pay for thier attorneys and the attorneys they sue (Wisan) then it seems the FLDS are the ones getting worn out.

    They are hemmoraghing money badly and each little case keeps piling on, and they will just need to fire sale it all because of their stubborness and insistance on discrimination, which ensures they lose in ALL courts.

  222. The 700 acre known today as Berry Knoll Farms was homesteaded by Louis Black. He sold the farm to a couple of Newel Steed’s sons who were promoting and selling circle sprinkler systems. They were in debt to the Farm Home Adminstration (FHA) for close to 2 million dollars. The FHA finally forclosed on the farm and called it “Berry Knoll Farms”.

    It was put up for auction in for $1,800,000.00 and there where no bidders. Later it was put up for auction with a lower minimum. Still no bids.

    Fred Jessop, Rulon Jeffs and Parley Harker contacted the FHA to purchase the property.

    Berry Knoll Farms was finally purchased in 1987 by Parley Harker(a member of the Barlow group). He arranged a deal to purchase the farm for a fraction of the cost for the UEP, paying $300,000.00 for the property including the sprinkler system, wells and pumps. The money was raised by asking the people to donate to the UEP. Rulon Jeffs told the men of his group (Barlow men) in a Priesthood Meeting on a Sunday morning. He said “If you want to be a member of the United Effort Plan just donate a thousand dollars toward the purchasing of the Berry Knoll Farms.” The Polygamist by Ben Bistline.

    Joseph Musser made the prophecy of Berry Knoll and the temple.

    Warren Jeffs did not consider Musser a prophet and said Musser’s stroke was because God punished him for not believing in the one man rule, if I remember correctly.

  223. Great information, SusieQ!

  224. hey ppl,
    Just giving the ppl that give a crap an update. I am back at my old job……so im no longer a jobless loser. Things are going great….as always.

  225. TERRIFIC, PK! Congratulations, and thanks for letting us know! And you have NEVER been a “loser,” don’t EVER say that about yourself again!

    Lots of hugs and best wishes from all of us, I know…..

  226. Congrats Plygkid. Glad to hear you’re working again! And you weren’t a loser, you were just jobles.

  227. Hey plygkid. Great to hear your good news.

  228. Hi Plygkid. Glad things are looking up for you.

    Hellohellogoodbye – I’m interested to learn more about the petition you’ve been working on. Could you share it with us to tell us more about the content? I’d like to get a paper petition circulating that residents of Arizona and Utah can sign but am not sure what we should be requesting at this point. Thought maybe your petition would give me some ideas.

    Thanks

  229. what are you going to do if i do call myself a loser again rattle? 😛

  230. Um; smack yer butt?

  231. lol BRING IT!!

  232. *chuckles*

  233. nearthecreek
    If you email me at chemist53@gmail.com I can send you the original petition and the edited version (edited by GFNY).

  234. PK
    glad you are employed again… nicer to have money than not.
    Have missed your posts

  235. Hey PK!

    Glad you are back to work! I dont know why but you always brighten my day. Perhaps its the sick sense of humor we share?

    LOL

  236. LOL yes sick sense of humor……..

    on that note i did read the old post……flora dont like me very much….i think she needs to keep sweet lol.

  237. Flora, not like you? Perhaps its misdirected. There are so many pesky guys to not like back there, she perhaps got confused, using the shotgun approach and all?

    HA

    I read “ESCAPE” and Carolyn didnt say anything bad about you at all.

    Merril and Barbara were SOO BAD they had her wound up pretty good.

    Flora? I havent read her book yet. But she gives those good-ol-boys hell, with both barrels, they dont like it none either!

  238. HHG — if you send me the edited version I’ll post it so everyone can look at it and give suggestions

  239. HHG- I had your email as chemist1953@gmail.com not chemist53@gmail.com which is the correct one?

  240. Thanks HHG – I just sent you an email. I’ll send one to the email address chemist1953@gmail.com as well, just to be sure you get it.

    Thanks too FLDS Texas. Posting it would be fabulous!

  241. Where were they, FLDS, in 1964?

  242. Whose life or lives did Willie the Creep threaten?

  243. Hey Pligkid, I didn’t know you were jobless but I’m happy for you that you aren’t any longer. I’ve been there and it isn’t a fun place to be — particularly in today’s economy. Best wishes for the future!

  244. Anonymous July 29, 2009 at 8:10 PM

    You’re right about the land in Short Creek.

    Flora said when she was a little girl she was constantly getting into trouble for removing Native American human bones, including skulls that her father or uncle brought into the house. She would steal them and run off to bury them someplace she didn’t think they would ever find them again. That was right inside the city limits of Colorado City, Arizona.

    I’m sure someone with a heart like Flora’s, even as a child, would have notified the proper authorities if she had known any “proper authorities” where she lived.

  245. I think everyone thought Wille had been kicked out of Flds for a few years, cause he didn’t have anything to do with short Creek, but he was working behind the scenes for Warren while Warren was on the run, buying equipment new and used for YFZ and pretty much going whereever warren told him to go.

  246. I love learning new things, so have enjoyed reading about the Black Hawk War. There is no question that the Utes were badly used by the Mormon settlers, especially in that the Mormons misrepresented their own agreements as “treaties” and then ignored them.

    Since the Trust needs to rustle up cash, there’d be no benefit to returning Berry Knoll to the Utes. But why not lease it back to them to build and operate a casino? It’s right in the middle of Utah’s great National Parks and only 45 miles out of St. George.

  247. Deseret News said there were “hundreds” of FLDS there, a far cry from the “thousands” Brooke Adams predicted and the “thousands” and “1500” in captions on the SL Tribune picture gallery.

    Anyone who can count can look at the photos and realize the Deseret News is right.

  248. Hi all,
    email is chemist1953@gmail.com

  249. WOW

    A poster on the trib is giving away free death threats!

    “beehive 22: 7/30/2009 5:15:00 PM

    Its common knowledge,if you do someone wrong around here you’ll be butchered like The Meadows Massacre. Evil Exterminators. ”

    http://www.tribtowns.com/comments/read_comments.asp?ref=12936897&PageIndex=14#

  250. This “beehive” person seems very sick. I hope LE is paying attention. The threat to Wisan was quite clear and clearly an attempt to intimidate.

  251. Yeah there is another one too.

    beehive 22: 7/30/2009 3:59:00 PM
    -6

    The new Satan “Bruce R. Wisan” is an evil SOB,whom must enjoy playing with Fire,A dead man walking ?

  252. GFNY, that’s oat bloat alrright.

    You can ferment just about anything but rocks.

  253. Well maybe the FEDS will pay a little more attention now.

    Some of those boys need a long timeout!

  254. I can’t believe they are still allowing willie the windbag to say anything!!!

  255. I missed Plygkid, but Im so glad he is back working,, congrats plygkid!

  256. Welcome back Plygkid.
    You have been missed and I am glad you got your job back.

  257. PK, I am so glad to hear your good news, hopefully that means we will “see” you here more often, I’ll even open the chocolate cabinet to celebrate. Sending a hug and love from one of your “virtual plyg” moms, LOL.

  258. WOWSER

    A sampler of an archive at your site

    “Fundamentalists get sealed in LDS Temples”

    “SALT LAKE CITY, UT (krcl) – What do Adolf Hitler, Barack Obama’s mother, Harvey Milk, Mickey Mouse and polygamist cult leader Ervil Lebaron all have in common? They’ve all been baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints after they died.

    And now, it appears that the LDS Church is sealing fundamentalist leaders to their plural wives.

    Troy welcomes researcher Helen Radkey and Mormon historian D. Michael Quinn to understand why people are upset by the controversial practice. “

    http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/krcl/news.newsmain?action=section&SECTION_ID=1

    Tommorrow there may be a discussion between Willie and Rod Parker archived on this site!

  259. Ive thought all along Rod Parker was a closet fundementalist, LOL

  260. Hey Kid–great to hear from ya!! Missed you!! Glad things are going well for you.
    I’m not here or there as much…anymore–I just sorta drop by on occasion to catch up on the news.
    But..anyway…glad you are back!!

  261. Oh yeah, Utah and the Mormons are all into this posthumous baptism gibberish. That is one of the things that makes the Mormons so scary.

    Personally, I think it is arrogant and obnoxious.

    Ya know, the Mormon big whig dude and hangers on muckety-mucks went to DC a week or so ago and had this big secret meeting with Obama. I wonder if it was to explain their cult-like posthumous baptism gibberish to the President of the USA? And to hopefully apologize to Mr. President for enlisting his Mama into the Mormon church without his (or anyone else’s) knowledge or consent.

    Can you believe they had the audacity to do this?

  262. I could certainly see how proxy baptism would offend folks with other religious beliefs. I also see how it’s arrogant. However, religion tends to be by it’s very nature arrogant and exclusive.

    My view is that I’m not worried about the voodoo doll my ex wife has of me so I’m not going to be worried about some voodoo proxy baptism.

  263. Ron

    LOL You dont feel the little prick?

  264. Stamp – now that you mention it – I have been having this stabbing pain between my shoulder blades.

  265. It has been alleged that gatherings are taking place at the LSJ meeting hall in short creek and that some men who were exed are being allowed back into the fold. The question that arises is who in the flds leadership would be making these decisions. IMO, it would have to be coming from warren since letting someone back in is a priesthood decision. Perhaps warren makes the call and gets the word out to someone who can execute the decision.
    The speculation about needing more donations being behind it may be spot on.

  266. Hey jobo,
    I’m not back but i will check on yall every now and again.

  267. LOL …..

  268. what’s with Shurtleff and 1964? He doesn’t believe in US laws?

  269. Apparently not …

  270. from mudpucky’s site:

    ne of my strongest new Mormon friends that I’ve met over the past 16 month’s is “Pliggy”. Those who are FLDS and his closest friends know that he has been restored to the Priesthood. Those that know the FLDS, know that they do not take their religion lightly. Even when it has been un-fashionable, and sometimes downright dangerous, they have followed the tenants of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. That does not mean they are incapable of accepting back a member who has admittedly transgressed one of their Laws. In my humble opinion, if there was ever a man who had repented from afar and deserved reinstatement into his beloved Church, that man is Allen Holm. In a sea of somber faces contemplating the loss of their land, it was good to see my friend beaming with pride at being back with his people.

  271. Well that’s nice for Pliggy. To be honest, I never expected it to happen. I really wonder what’s going on. Who’s in charge now and reinstating these guys. Somehow I don’t believe it’s Warren.

  272. Well, “Greetings from New York,” I got a gleam in my eye for you too. :p

    I get sentimental listening to Randy Newman at 1 in the morning.

  273. Congratulations to Allen (Pliggy) on his return to his religion. You certainly worked hard enough for this Allen and I hope your family has been restored to you.

  274. yeah, Al holm is back in the FLDS, I knew that a long time ago, told Pliggy to tell the rabble but I suppose he wanted to string them along.

  275. IMO, it would have to be coming from warren since letting someone back in is a priesthood decision

    goofball chemist, the info I got from short creek is that Warren is no longer in charge, the current leader I won’t name but it wouldn’t come as a suprise. Boot’s super spies also said Warren has been “martyred” so the conclusion must be that this info is correct; Warren is no longer calling the shots.

  276. deci; I appreciate the information about warren. Unfortunsate that your immaturity has to resort to name calling. Of cours when considering the source…

  277. Letting all the young guys in, means more money for the FLDS.

    It is all about money, right Alan.

    I wonder how much money it took for Alan to buy his way back in.

  278. My guess is that if Pliggy has been reinstated, it has to do with shoring up declining membership.

    How many people does Wee Willie purport to speak for? 4000? How many were at the rally? Several hundred? I imagine the FLDS rolls actually amount to one or two thousand now, at most.

    You can’t fool all the people all the time.

  279. I was talking about observing the Sabbath with a Mennonite fellow on Thursday. He told me that his friends who have left the faith find returning to its practices hard. I wonder how Pliggy will do.

  280. Well, if Pliggy still has a computer, it could be difficult to avoid all of those porn sites.

  281. Good grief! Pliggy’s back in? There goes the neighborhood.

  282. duane you got your information from the inept Bill Medvecky from his site. The old fart, doesn’t know how to tell the truth.

  283. Yeah you betcha Pliggy’d want the wifey back slightly used.

  284. Strange isn’t that Arthur Blackmore testified, he still didn’t know why he was kicked out, and had never figured out what he did wrong.

  285. FLDS is a Ponzi scam,, they are famous for those in Utah.

  286. PrevailingWinds, I was thinking along the same lines, maybe he is hoping the wifey learned some new tricks from the lastest guys she has been having sex with. Now heres a puzzler, pliggy’s 15 year old wife popped out two kids with him in the couple years they were “married”, pliggy was kicked and wifey has been “reassigned” to who knows how many other men and since she is in those prime kid popping years she has more than likely had at least 4 more kids, so if they give her back to pliggy is all those kids DNA “magically” transformed into pliggy’s DNA? And how screwed up are the 2 original kids gonna be they have been told their “original” sperm donor now longer exists and how ever many men their mom has been reassigned to magically become their “father”, now all of a sudden the original sperm donor is back and ta da DNA change again.

  287. I doubt they give wives back to the biological fathers, once they are let back in. Besides Pliggy made it well known to anyone and everyone, he LOVED Warren more than he did anyone else.

  288. I don’t believe Pliggy’s wife was ever reassigned. I also believe that she was an adult when they married, not 15. I was told this by Pliggy, and while he’s been known to spread rumors, I have never caught him in a deliberate lie.

  289. Rebeckah, on the trib boards pliggy said his wife was 15 when they married.

  290. Poor child!

  291. Hmmm, I know he said his mother was 15 when she married his father (as a second wife) but he told me his wife was an adult when they married. I don’t know…

  292. Rebeckah, pliggy saying his wife was an “adult” is just a FLDS way of spinning words. On the trib boards I asked him her actual age (because I already knew it) and he stated 15 which he considered an adult.

  293. I would doubt that he would be given his original family back though, too many years have gone by and unless her current husband has been exed there would be no reason to take her away from him.

  294. ohhh…I sorta doubt they gave Pliggy his family back..I don’t think it works that way????

  295. pliggy alsa said his marriage was not legal in the eyes of the state, meaning it was not a state licensed marriage.

  296. pliggy was kicked and wifey has been “reassigned” to who knows how many other men

    Such sick and perverted fantasies the antiplygs have but thanks for revealing your true feelings.

    GFNY, who cares if it was 4000, 1000, or 900. The point is that it was a bunch of them who were out there. If it is so important to you, collect all the pics that were taken and count them.

    Pliggy and I are friends, I talk to him from time to time over the phone.

  297. Pliggy’s wife was not 15, I asked him that directly. She was like 18 and he was in his early twenties, forgot the exact ages.

    Also remember that Cement’s wife was “forced married” to him by Warren Jeffs, they both left and are doing fine, I think she was 19 or 20. Very few FLDS marriages are underage, they allowed underage marriages but never mandated it.

  298. “Very few FLDS marriages are underage, they allowed underage marriages but never mandated it”.

    So, uh, Duane, do me a favor, ask your friend pliggy how Ruby is doing.

    I’d really like to talk to her. If their women are as free as he says they are, please pass along the Triple AP’s phone number to her and ask her to give me a jingle sometime, soon.

    Thanks,

    Boots

  299. P.S. Duane,

    I never answer “Unknown Caller” jingles.

  300. duane–yep–it’s sorta twisted and perverted that the flds just kick men out and re-assign their family to another man…yep…that’s sure what happens in the real world…
    Funny thing; they are allowing their kicked-out to return??? what’s up with that? I would not give them the time of day..no way. do you suppose they need more money…??? sure could be it. I would be careful if I were Pliggy…but…I’m sure he will give them what they want…
    and…wasn’t it sorta twisted and perverted that his wife did not leave with him? She could have…she chose not too!!!

  301. LOL, duane, you have “talked” to “pliggy” on the phone and you believe anything he tells you. Ask someone that actually grew up there around the same time as Allen, his (in your words) shack up sex toy (they were never legally married) she was 15 when Warren performed the ceremony “sealing” them for “time and eternity”. She was 16 when she delivered their first child, she has been “reshacked” twice since Allen was cast out, and has other children by two other men than Allen.

  302. ahhh…anonymous–that makes sense that she was underage–since they were not legally married…duh!!! silly me…never thought about that.???

  303. Walks like slavery, talks like slavery, looks like slavery… Polygamy is slavery of women and children.

    That’s why polygamy and slavery were deemed the twin relics of barbarism. Although I’m sure pliggy’s ex could and would look you right in the eye today and explain to you that she is not a victim and nothing is bad in her life and she is very happy…

    Duane will never see the human rights abuse it took to make her happy with such a life as this. He will never know or care about her childhood years as one of dozens of children, or how they ended early when she was given to pliggy like a heifer to raise for later auction.

    Duane and pliggy and ever so sadly, probably pliggy’s ex-child bride too, will never be able to see any of this as the abuse of human beings, because they think they’re just women and they don’t count or matter as real people anyway.

    The U.N. gets it. The women of the Middle East and Africa do, too. I do and I think Texas is figuring it out, too, fast.

  304. One mistake I notice Duane making with regards to my situation is he acts like it was just a simple “We’re done” and the FLDS leaders saying “OK, don’t let the door hit your rear end. Wish you luck.” It didn’t happen like that.

  305. Another mistake made by both sides is confusing statistical outliers for the norm. Merienne was a statistical outlier at 12 (at least I hope so), and my wife was a statistical outlier at 20, and there were comments about how “old” she was when we were married.

  306. So smack in the middle of those, would you say 16 yrs of age was the norm?

  307. Boots, I think the better argument is that marriage is slavery for women. But hey, I’m not opposed to slavery so it’s a BB off a Battle Tank anyway.

  308. Well now, Hugh, some of us gals don’t exactly toe the old school feminist line either.

    We don’t see marriage as slavery for women. We see marriage as protection of women and children. Anyone can tell you the very fastest way to enter poverty in this country is to be a single mom.

    Marriage is a contract designed to protect the building block of our society, which is the family unit.

    There is no polygamous culture on earth which can demonstrate the cultural practice of polygamy has benefited women and children.

    Monogamous marriage has demonstrated benefits to women and children. Is it broken in this country? Uh, yeah. Does that mean we should endanger more children by decriminalizing polygamy? No.

  309. I just can’t resist the following quote about single moms:

    “If you’re a single mother with two children, which is the toughest job in America as far as I’m concerned, and you’re working hard to put food on your family…” — G.W.B

  310. “I voted Republican this year; the Democrats left a bad taste in my mouth”. ~Monica Lewinsky

  311. Boots, I’m coming from a literal Christian perspective. Sarah called Abraham “LORD” (kurios) according to Peter, for a reason. Kurious is the same word that Paul uses for a slave’s master.

  312. And you see in these passages what; the divine authority to subjugate women as a class of people designed by the Creator of the universe to be slaves somehow to the other class, males?

    Is it too much to ask that all marriages be 100% voluntary, and that children are not forced or coerced into illegal sexual contracts for the pleasure their little bodies might bring to some old man or close relative?

    Why does it bother men so much when women ask such a little thing?

  313. Now that Pliggy’s been restored to the priesthood, I wonder if there is any way to do a blood test on priesthood people vs apostates so we can identify what priesthood juice looks like or how it functions in the body.

  314. “it was just a simple “We’re done” and the FLDS leaders saying “OK, don’t let the door hit your rear end. Wish you luck.” It didn’t happen like that.”

    Oh cement, I’m sure it didn’t happen like that, I bet there were many who believed in you and were hurt by what you did…I’m sure you had your reasons for doing what you did and I bet from your perspective they were good ones. Why do you still stay there among people you hurt? Why don’t you and your wife leave, sell your place and get out? I just don’t understand what it is that apostates who leave the faith and no longer believe…still inist on residing amongst those who in their minds view you as betrayers. Why are you still there Cement? Move to Austin, SLC, Phoenix, Dallas…Who is paying you? Why do you allow yourself to be a tool? Perhaps you are wavering in your faith and if something happens that brings doubt to your current beliefs you want to be in a position to run back into the FLDS and ask for forgivness? There are many like Pliggy who are forced to “repent from afar” after breaking major church tenets, they let them back in if they genuinely make amends for their errors.

  315. Boots, Polygamy is legal in the Netherlands, how is that country doing? Would you consider it a 3rd world state?

  316. duane: your comments to cement about he should not live around the “priesthood” and suggesting other places he could move to sounds just like some of the stuff in warren’s dictations. Maybe you are not a wannabe flds, maybe you are the real article. A little warren trying to dictate where and how people live, who they marry, etc.

  317. duane, what makes you think cememt did anything that as you say “hurt” many? You don’t know why he is no longer FLDS, beyond what he has stated and he stated previously that it took him a long time to realize many things were wrong within the church and he chose to no longer follow the FLDS “religion”.

    Were you hurt by that decision duane?

  318. Boots, I see in those passages and many others that in this life women are subject to their husbands. Just as a slave was said to be subject to their master.

    As a Christian, in light of the knowledge they are not male or female but fellow heirs in eternity, I need to be pretty careful about “lording it over them” as the gentiles do, in this life, because eternity is a lot longer than about 40 years.

    I am also mindful of Paul’s rather short but powerful letter to Philemon.

  319. Yes I do consider today’s Nederlands at least approaching “2nd world” and heading backward. They are currently reaping the results of what they have sown. TANSTAAFL. While there are families who try to raise their children right the laws no longer support them in meaningful ways. Yes you can sell your 12 or 13 year old daughter there, the only question is the price.

  320. So, a religion betrays someone; they wake up and realize what a bunch of vodoo it is, waste away 15-20 years of their life coming to this realization, and I betrayed the religion!!!

  321. Duane, I’ll admit to parroting a rumor and adding fuel to it that was fueled because of extreme secrecy. But as far as betraying; secrecy should be exposed.

    Now, if you want betrayal, let’s talk about betrayal. A person who is naive and doesn’t understand the facts of life is asked personal questions and admits to things that don’t make a damn bit of difference in life (wet dreams, etc.), and the next day what was said in private the whole damn town knows about, that is betrayal!!!

  322. cement I am so sorry that you have now become a victim of duane and pliggy’s smear campaign against every person to escape from the FLDS. Unfortunately duane is so gullible that he swallows everything pliggy feeds him as gospel truth. And duane will do anything to hurt anyone that has voluntarily left the FLDS. You have to remember that duane is a 12 year old parrot/puppet of pliggy.

  323. cement you’re a wonder and a breath of fresh air! I want to thank you for awakening yet another threat response in duane as well, he’s such a joke but fun to watch.

  324. duane is a dumb shit, has been from the very beginning! He has diarreha of the mouth and speaks before he thinks. Art Blackmore was kicked out, and to this day, hasn’t a clue what he did wrong. Many others were kicked out with no reason.
    But we ALL know the reason don’t we? Men were kicked out because they were a threat to warren’s leadership.
    Yes, my dear friends, many men actually had some intelligence to know what warren was up to was illegal and morally wrong.

    So, you could basically say they were kicked out because they had good sense knowing the difference between right and wrong.

    Once again I will say,, it’s amazing Pliggy knew what went on in every home and bedroom in the twin cities!

    Now, duane,,, why should cement leave his home?? Why shouldn’t he benefit from what he gave most of his life for?

  325. PS I wasn’t aware women could stand in FLDS and give testimony as to who was the prophet. Yet in Flds, Rulon never said Warren would be the next prophet,, but Naomi and Kathy stood up in the meeting after Rulon died and said, “Warren was the next prophet” Amazing isn’t it? The passing of the torch (LOL) was done by women.

  326. Gee Duane – for preaching as much as you do about everybody else being hateful and bigoted, your statements to cement were, well, pretty hateful and bigoted.

  327. Pharisee is OK with slavery? I imagine that’s because he imagines himself being the master. Geez, what a wacko.

  328. Duane, it is critical to know whether there are 4000 or 3226 or 1221 people who’ve agreed to have Wee Willie and Rod Parker represent them. They both purport to speak for a group of people whose numbers, opinions and identities are unknown.

    Mark Shurtleff must understand this fundamental requirement—that the trust has to deal with identifiable entities—whether corporate or individual. An unknown group which has no identifiable leadership, no incorporation, and no membership roster is not a legal player, period. For all we know (and it’s what I suspect) at this point Rod Parker et al are representing Wee Willie himself in a colossal land grab.

    As for the age of Pliggy’s wife, why do you think he told each of you the same thing? He was known for being a provocateur.

    I can’t imagine why you think Cement should move elsewhere. Would you take kindly to my suggestion that you relocate to Albuquerque? Cement has the right to live where he pleases, and the right to preach to his former brethren on the errors of their ways. May the Lord bless and keep him all the days of his life.

  329. Boots, brilliant line: “[W]hen she was given to Pliggy like a heifer to raise for later auction.”

  330. Thanks Greetings, I couldn’t resist the comparison. Cattle/chattle-same difference.

    Hugh,

    “Boots, I see in those passages and many others that in this life women are subject to their husbands. Just as a slave was said to be subject to their master”.

    Who are single women supposed to be subject to, like a master?

    I guess by your way of thinking then, I am free and have no “master”, since I am unmarried? Or is there some other man I’m suposed to subject myself to in a case like this?

    Muslims believe that I should now be the responsibility of my father, brother or an uncle…as long as they have balls and I’m being obedient to them it doesn’t really matter.

    Is your position similar or am I free and my own “master” now?

  331. Once again I will say,, it’s amazing Pliggy knew what went on in every home and bedroom in the twin cities!
    ====================

    Maybe it’s because Warren pried into people and then betrayed them!

  332. I recommend the book “Infidel” by Ayaan Hirsi Ali to anyone who thinks that life in the multicultural Netherlands is hunky-dory. She lived the ultimate rags-to-intellectual-riches story, which was cut short when she made a movie called “Submission” with Theo Van Gogh. The result was his murder and a fatwa against her that has caused her to live in hiding since 2004.

    Hirsi Ali grew up in abject poverty in Somalia, abandoned by her polygamous father after he escaped political imprisonment. She was a pious hajib-wearing Muslim before that was the style, but ended up fleeing an arranged marriage. From there she claimed asylum in the Netherlands, where she was educated and made a citizen, eventually being elected to Parliament. Her citizenship was stripped (but ultimately returned) when questions were raised about her asylum application.

    Hirsi Ali never suggested that immigration is the problem—she simply stated that the West has overarching values of liberty and equality to which all other values should be subservient. That is as true for our home-grown dissidents as it is for immigrants.

    “Infidel” is a brilliant adventure story as well as a polemic against multiculturalism. I count it among my favorite books.

    By the way, Hirsi Ali had her genitals excised when she was a girl, which is simply a more extreme form of the FLDS insistence that women not enjoy sex.

  333. “wasn’t it sorta twisted and perverted that his wife did not leave with him? She could have…she chose not too!!!”

    I got the impression that Pliggy never suggested it. He seemed to feel he was sent to repent from afar for legitimate reasons and I don’t think he would have wanted to “taint” his wife by asking her to join him in exile. He has never said one word against the faith but always supported it and asking his wife to join him in his punishment would have been contrary to FLDS beliefs. I could, of course, be wrong, but that is my understanding.

    “Ask someone that actually grew up there around the same time as Allen, his (in your words) shack up sex toy (they were never legally married) she was 15 when Warren performed the ceremony “sealing” them for “time and eternity”. She was 16 when she delivered their first child, she has been “reshacked” twice since Allen was cast out, and has other children by two other men than Allen.”

    Please, what is your source for this? It is contrary to what I’ve picked up about this situation and I would like to see it verified in some way. Otherwise it seems like a particularly nasty rumor. Please don’t think I’m defending anyone, but the verifiable truth is extremely important to me.

  334. Of course Hugh understands that we are “neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female” in Christ Jesus, so that there is no point in trying to make tortured relational comments about male-female relationships within Christianity.

    I have recited chapter and verse on gender equality in the Bible so many times that I can’t bear to do it again. But the idea that God means for man to have mastery over women is a way to subtly separate people from God. It is a lie from Satan and ought to be dismissed as such.

    I am hoping that when Hugh says he is not opposed to slavery he is referring to the idea that we are slaves in Christ. Please tell me it’s so, Hugh, and that you are not advocating slavery as commonly understood.

  335. I am Mistress Toad of a number of things but I would neither own for myself man nor toad. For instance to some I am Mistress Toad of the Cat Treats, to others I’m My Mistress of the Back Door. In my home I am also Mistress of the Chocolate Hoard and Mistress of Granny’s Jelly Cabinet (which houses the liquor stash).

  336. Rebeckah, I think Cement is saying that he observed this firsthand because he lives in the Creek. Of course, none of us can verify this any more than we can verify that Pliggy is indeed Allen Holm.

  337. I’m Mistress of the Strong Black Coffee and I’m pouring some for you now, Granny Toad.

  338. I thank you dearly Mistress GFNY of the Strong Black COffee!

  339. Well, as long as we are engaging in morning chit chat, GFNY, thank you for the recent rain here in Texas. Last week she was complaining about rain up there and I asked her to send it on down here because we needed it so badly.

    We’ve had two or three days of good soaking rain from here all the way down into the Hill Country. Did you ever get any Texasrattle?

  340. Boots, I’m coming from a literal Christian perspective. Sarah called Abraham “LORD” (kurios) according to Peter, for a reason. Kurious is the same word that Paul uses for a slave’s master.

    Hmm, Seems a bit convenient to choose that particular scripture to subjugate women to men but I don’t see you running around in a robe and turban to dress in the appropriate “manly” fashion for the time that quote was made. (And let’s face it, there are verses telling men not to dress like women and vice versa.) Do you follow the dietary restrictions? Passover? How about the Sabbath year every seven years? Do you forgive all outstanding debts every 49 years? Somehow I doubt it. So why cling to this one premise, that women are “slaves” to men. Can anyone say “self-esteem problem”? Not just that, but you think “slavery” is okay? Just who do you think it’s okay to enslave? (Besides women, of course.)

  341. “Rebeckah, I think Cement is saying that he observed this firsthand because he lives in the Creek. Of course, none of us can verify this any more than we can verify that Pliggy is indeed Allen Holm.”

    Cement didn’t make the comment I asked about, that was made by an Anonymous poster, GFNY. I’ve witnessed a few exchanges between Cement and Pliggy and the accusations all came from Pliggy towards Cement, I’ve never seen it the other way around. That is a great deal of the reason why I find Cement more credible than Pliggy. Cement weighs his words and is cautious about what he says, and it tends to hold up better than Pliggy’s recycled rumors about people’s private lives.

    And Mistress of Coffee, will you drink a cup for me? I don’t get to drink it any more and I miss it!

  342. Whoops! Sorry, Rebeckah.

    Duane seems to believe that Cement “hurts people” by his very existence. He wants the FLDS to have the ‘liberty’ to continue an illegal practice, but he doesn’t want Cement to be able to exercise his legitimate Constitutional rights to freedom of movement and association.

  343. So Hugh thinks that women should be slaves of men according to his interpretation of some bible verses. Would someone wake him up and tell him what century and country we are living in? Good Grief!!
    Then smarmy duane comes along and tells cement that cement should move because duane says so. What a pile of BS that is. Who gave duane any authority to criticize where someone wants to live. Wonder who is paying duane to post his carp? Maybe the yfz people.
    Duane’s comment to cement was beyond the pale. If I ran this blog duane might well be facing a lifetime ban. He was banned from the SLT board, but gets back in as deci.

  344. Duane has a fundamental misconception about what constitutes “home”. It is the sum of all our experiences that binds us to a place, not just our church affiliation or family. To demand that someone nullify every experience by moving is cruel, whether done by WSJ or Duane.

    Cement has every right to stand in the center of town on a soap box and preach to his fellow non-believers. Their rights of free speech and free assembly don’t end at the Colorado City line. In fact, I think staying and fighting are far more loving than slinking out of town would be.

  345. duane is a swinger, so to him everything is okay.

  346. Boots, my part got .42″ rain. I’ll take more if ya got it, GFNY.

  347. Although I’m sure pliggy’s ex could and would look you right in the eye today and explain to you that she is not a victim and nothing is bad in her life and she is very happy…
    ====================================================
    So what would you do? Remove a woman from her home, her friends, her family, plop her down right in the middle of city and say Grats! I now pronounce you happy.

  348. Polygamy is a Felony.

    I would like to see her held responsible for her choices and prosecuted for her crime.

    Any other questions I can answer for you?

  349. Alinusara, so , what your saying is Marriage isn’t a committment or covenanant? It’s just pretend? Make believe your married to this guy, and then when he leaves or is kicked, move on and make believe your married to the next man?
    Oh but wait,,,,, there are children being born in these make believe marriages..
    By the way that’s exactly what FLDS do when they marry,,, Grats! I pronounce you Happy!!

  350. Nah not really. Polygamy, or to be more precise, Bigamy has appeared to be decriminalized. The only cases being actively persued is the cases involving women under the legal age of consent. It’s probably due to law enforcement limited resources being more focused on crimes like rapes and murders and suchlike.
    ===========================================================
    “I would like to see her held responsible for her choices and prosecuted for her crime.”
    ===========================================================
    Wait a minute my friend. Leaving behind the matter of “happiness” which you eloquently argued, incarcerating a woman who lives in a lifestyle which you don’t approve of decreases “happiness” which I thought was your goal. Instead I’ll talk about “slavery” which you used as a argument as well. You argued that polygamy is a form a slavery and yet you argue that the woman should be prosecuted for her “choices”? Which is it? A choice or not a choice? You cannot have it both ways.

  351. Alinusara, did you read what Richard Ream said in court the other day…Judge Lindberg’s court?
    He said all those people outside (flds) are there because if they weren’t, they could possibly be kicked out.
    Didn’t see anyone from YFZ ranch at that gathering, but then why would they go, they have their own Zion now right?
    I think any ADULT FEMALE who gives her underage daughter to a man old enough to be her father or grandfather, should be locked up right along with the men.

  352. And by the way Alinusara, since in Flds NO woman has a chance to go to heaven unless they are married to an Flds who holds priesthood, I would say, that’s pretty much a non choice, wouldn’t you?

  353. Ali, my argument is not for increasing her happiness. My argument is that we should enforce our laws and be faithful to the Constitution, which does not protect or allow for the cultural practice of polygamy, which is abusive.

    If I am beaten as child, do I somehow inheret the right to grow up and be a child beater with impunity? Because she was trapped in the criminal activity of polygamy from birth, does she have the right to grow up and commit the crime with impunity as well?

    No.

    Does she know what she is doing is illegal?

    Yes.

    Does she choose to do it anyway?

    Yes.

    Is she guilty of commiting a Felony?

    Yes.

    Where should Felons be, Ali?

    Prison.

  354. …Constitution, which does not protect or allow for the cultural practice of polygamy, which is abusive.
    ===================================================
    Our Constitution neither protects nor bans polygamy to be perfectly fair. The label “abusive” is a matter of opinion.
    ===================================================
    Where should Felons be, Ali?

    Prison.
    ===================================================
    If you want to lock up everyone that has multible sex partners I would suggest you start building a lot more prisons. While we are at it, perhaps we should build more courts and increase the size of our police forces otherwise it would put a tremendous strain on their currently available resources; resources perhaps better suited going after murderers and rapists.

  355. I think any ADULT FEMALE who gives her underage daughter to a man old enough to be her father or grandfather, should be locked up right along with the men.
    ==================================================
    I don’t have a problem with that as long as the investigation doesn’t violate the civil rights of the suspected victim.

  356. “duane is a swinger, so to him everything is okay.”

    Except someone who no longer has faith in the religion he was raised in continuing to raise his family in the same area he grew up in. Real understanding guy, that Duane.

  357. “If you want to lock up everyone that has multible sex partners I would suggest you start building a lot more prisons.”

    And Madam or Sir Let’s-Twist-What’s-Said strikes again (the Troll for short). Actually, what she said was that someone who knowingly breaks the law by entering into a polygamous marriage should face the penalty. Multiple sex partners was not the issue, polygamous marriage is. And Alinusara fails again…

  358. Multiple sex partners was not the issue, polygamous marriage is. And Alinusara fails again…
    ==========================================
    To me, pretty much the same thing.

  359. “To me, pretty much the same thing.”

    Really? Well, since you’re a self acknowledged liar I hope you’ll forgive me for simply taking your little word game at face value — as an attempt, again, to muddy the waters. But feel free to keep playing. I’m sure someone, somewhere, has missed the part where you said it was just fine and dandy to lie.

  360. Also, regardless of how YOU take the issue, the laws looks at it quite differently. Even you should know that by now.

  361. Polygamy is a Felony.

    I would like to see her held responsible for her choices and prosecuted for her crime.

    Any other questions I can answer for you?

    Well, being a liberal I don’t see this issue as so black and white. While I’d agree that a number of women who accept this lifestyle perhaps set their children up for the abuse/abuser lifestyle it’s clearly not so automatic. Carolyn Jessop contributed to this lifestyle for a number of years before her “Escape.”

    Boots, not everyone is so knee jerk reactive as your friend Flora. People resist against this lifestyle in differing ways. To say that a young Carolyn Jessop should have been sent to jail is to me very disingenuous.

  362. Drive by post

    Did I hear that Pliggy got let back in the fold? Maybe with all those guys going to prison, they need more men to fill the ranks.

    This all sanctioned by Warren?

  363. “To say that a young Carolyn Jessop should have been sent to jail is to me very disingenuous”.

    Well, I don’t think I was being disingenuous at all. I think I made my position on the felony crime quite clear. Adults who consent to practice the felony should be prosecuted for it. Those who leave should be given clemency from prosecution.

    Right now the biggest fear any polygamous woman has is that she will will burn in Hell for eternity if she fails to submit to it and there is zero penalty for submission to the criminal act.

    Utah and Arizona are done, put yer fork in. Texas has a choice. We can either follow Utah and Arizona’s lead and clear the way for the polygamists to abuse generations of Texas children, too or we can stop it here, now.

    I don’t see that as knee jerk or disingenous, Ron. I see that as protecting future generations of Texans from the same human rights abuse that tens of thousands of Utah and Arizona’s children suffer.

    After the Civil War there were plenty of former slaves who didn’t know what to do with themselves or their freedom. They went right back to their old masters for support and protection. Perhaps some of those were never beaten, starved, raped, molested or abused in any other way. Should we have allowed them to sell themselves right back into slavery because they were confused by such a massive cultural change?

    You’re right. Not everyone in the FLDS is so knee jerk as Flora who tried repeatedly to run away and get help. Not everyone in Communist Germany was knee jerk enough to escape to America like my friend Heide Gross. Not everyone in Germany during the war was knee jerk enough to break the law and hide Jews.

    But I’m damn glad for those knee jerk reactions in the ones with enough courage to have them.

    Polygamy is abuse. People who raise their children for the specific purpose of growing up to enter it, and commit crime should be in jail.

  364. Carolyn talked about how Carolyn finally actually “bonded with her children” after she left Flds.
    She commented how the mothers aren’t supposed to bond with their own children, because the children belong to all the mothers.
    In other words, the children don’t belong to individual mothers, even though they birthed them in flds.
    My conclusion of the story I read where Carolyn was speaking was that, as mentioned earlier, the Mothers are Chattle, having babies for the Priesthood, not having babies to love, cherish, have a personal bond with those children you birthed.
    In fact, I would like to know if Merrianne is really Barbara Jessops biological mother? I know the girl calls her mother, but all the children call all the adult women Mother.

  365. I mean who really knows? Warren’s dictations that we have read so far, says he took 8 Children from their mothers at Short Creek, and told them they would never see them again. So If Warren took 8 that time, how many others did he take. I can clearly understand why some of these children did NOT know who their biological mother was.

  366. Ron,
    The YFZ ranch KNEW in 2005 the law had changed in Texas. Sheriff Doran personally went out to the ranch and delievered the new law to them.

    There was NO excuse for marrying underage girls to Old men from that point on. But it happened anyway in 2005 and 2006. These adults knowingly married underage girls, and the Mothers knew it.
    And that did nothing!!! They are as responsible as any man out there or father who contributed to these felonies.

  367. GFNY, to apply Galatians 3 in the here and now is to sanction gay marriage. The reasoning is as follows:

    If we are all equal, why can’t you have a wife, and I a husband if I so desire, or if you so desire? That provided of course, that there is no male or female, Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, here, and now.

    That passage is about being in Christ before God in judgment and afterward. It pertains to the afterlife, not the here and now, and the greater context of that passage says that is exactly what is being said.

    If you do not think so, well and good. Seek your salvation with your own fear, trembling and light. I shall seek mine. We are quickly (as I thought we would) departing from my greater point.

    The point? In scripture marriage is described apologetically as the equivalent of slavery, be it monogamy or polygyny. For Boots to complain to me that polygyny is slavery only illicits the response of “Duh” from me because marriage is slavery.

    This is WHY Paul has to remind us in Galatians that in the future, the very very very near future and in eternity, this will not be so. Put on top of that fact, the observation that “the last shall be first, and the first shall be last” in many cases and it’s a frightening prospect to be abusive to your wife or other human property or subject.

  368. UN apologetically I meant to say 🙂

  369. Im glad you see yourself as human property Hugh Mcbryde, because I certainly don’t.

  370. “The point? In scripture marriage is described apologetically as the equivalent of slavery, be it monogamy or polygyny. For Boots to complain to me that polygyny is slavery only illicits the response of “Duh” from me because marriage is slavery.”

    It takes a truly emotionally challenged person to believe that because marriage could be equated to slavery 2000 or more years ago that it must remain that way today. Evolve, Hugh!

  371. My goodness,, the woman has always been in charge, she just LET’S the man think he is,, LOL
    Even 2,000 yrs ago.

  372. I mean Hugh himself proves his wife is in charge. He wants another wife, but his WIFE says NO!!!

  373. Bless Hugh’s wife, she probably works a 40hr week, while he sits at home on the computer, pining for polygamy!

  374. Hugh, I’m completely baffled as to how you can justify that marriage is the equivalent of slavery in the Bible. I can only imagine you’re talking about the rules for Christian deportment in Ephesians 5-6, 1 Peter 2-3, or Col. 3. The three examples Paul used were fundamental—husband-wife, master-slave, and parent-child. In the sense that the point of all three examples is the same, you are right, but it hardly makes them equivalent.

    And Paul’s point? We are not here to overthrow the civil order, but to embrace a revolution of the heart and soul. Embrace the role you have here in humility, and you are no longer defined by that role. His message is profound and fundamental for all those who seek a different kind of Messiah in Jesus.

    (But lest you think that’s an exhortation to simply maintain the status quo, I refer you to the entire gospel of Matthew. And Micah. And Isaiah….)

    As for the quotation from Gal. 3, the verbs are present-active-indicative tense in Greek. Present tense means exactly the same as it does in English: that we are neither male nor female, Greek nor Jew in Christ Jesus AT THIS MOMENT. If Paul were speaking of some future or indefinite point in time, he would have used either the future or future perfect tense.

    In addition to tenses, Greek has moods (so does English; we just don’t talk about them), which indicate how grounded in reality the statement is. And “indicative” is the Greek mood for an absolute assertion of fact, meaning that Paul’s statement represents a present, true reality, not a hypothetical or possible one.

  375. The verbs are not present-active-indicative “tense” in Greek, they are present tense, active voice, and indicative mood. (Some days I’d give my kingdom for the ability to edit my posts….)

    But it all adds up to the fact that Paul was saying, “Right now, and make no mistake about it, there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female: we are all one in Christ Jesus.”

  376. Yeah, what GFNY said! 🙂

  377. You are absolutely correct, GFNY.

    Rain update: We had very light showers on Thurs, barely enough to settle the dust. We had about 17 drops of rain this morning, but give thanks for the cloud overcast we had most of the day. MY hill country is still burning up and blowing away. Pray for rain — slow, gentle, extended, to soak in and not cause destruction.

  378. Anon 8:46

    I also reside in the Hill Country…and it’s beginning to feel like we live under a Dome. the no-rain zone. When it rained – er, drizzled – on Thursday, I actually went and sat on the back patio to marvel at it. 😉

  379. I shall of course pray for rain for Texas Hill Country.

  380. I live in West Texas, and we had some rain early in the week, and the rest of the week, the humidity was horrid!!! Walk outside and you gasp for air…. We don’t normally have humidity like that.

  381. p.s. this Hugh-guy cracks me up. He reminds me of a street preacher in Greenwich some years ago — “blah, blah, yackity-smackity, Armageddon!, blather, sputter, cough…..Satan!”

    He wore eyeball-blasting silver Nike sneakers. I think he wanted to make sure the Mothership could spot him. I’m visualizing Hugh sporting some silver sneaks right now. lol

  382. I actually believe Hugh is sincerely seeking God, but he’s making it unnecessarily hard on himself.

    Did the God who said:

    “And the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
    and all mankind together will see it.”

    and:

    “No one lights a lamp and hides it in a jar or puts it under a bed. Instead, he puts it on a stand, so that those who come in can see the light.”

    and:

    “The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few,”

    intend for salvation to be so damn difficult? I doubt it.

  383. Greeting your dealing with a hyper calvinist, who believe in the TULIP

  384. And they are all arrogant, sobs

  385. GFNY,

    No one seeks God, God finds us when we are dead and don’t want him.

  386. Dog, BTW FYI, I work a minimum 53 hour week, often longer. I do all the dishes at my house. Every day. At present my wife works a few extra hours, but normally about 30-35. If I want an extra wife it’s so I can get out of doing the dishes.

  387. Hugh: hire a maid.

  388. Yes, one can never have too many slaves when there are dishes to be done.

  389. Or use paper plates, or eat from the container.

    Additional wives create additional dirty dishes.

  390. Hey GFNY,

    Did the God who said:
    “And the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
    and all mankind together will see it…..
    intend for salvation to be so damn difficult? I doubt it.”

    You’re always kind in your assessments of others…I like you for that.

    Since I fall into the “Ron from Houston” category of beliefs (he posted his ten commandments sometime back, it was a clever list and I concur) …my view is that all religious texts advance that *their deity is manifest* and easily identifiable by the truly faithful — the key being truly faithful. Which, btw, I find faith a truly interesting topic, but I digress.

    So yeah, Hugh may in fact be earnestly seeking God, but from my view in the peanut gallery, it looks like he’s seeking a punisher — on a Cosmic level.

    and while it’s one thing to desire a Creator who loves and forgives

    …to seek that… and the ethical life implied by the pursuit

    it’s quite another to dwell-on and revel-in punitive predictions as are cherry picked from the Old Testament (which translation is anyone’s guess) — further ground down by verbal-pestle into whatever paste serves the maker. It would be pitiable if the sentiments were not so repugnant.

    I’m all for folks seeking their higher selves and thus connecting with their desired beliefs, yet I reserve the right to laugh at the ridiculous….from spe-shul, magical-underoos to the pope-mobile and the shellac of hair-helmet that is requisite for Suth’ern ‘vangelists ~

    If ya don’t wanna be called a street preacher, then don’t warble-on about how God rubber-stamped slavery 2,000 years ago…..it’s just silly.

    cheers!

  391. Those children were not marrying anyone out at YFZ breeding compound, check the local and nearby county records. No marriages.

  392. prevailing winds: Your post is somewhat incomprehensible. The yfz leaders were the ones who marrying out the girl children. Of course there were no marriage licenses for those marriages. The marriages were not legal marriages from the stste’s viewpoint. Nonetheless girls under the age of consent were “married” to men who alreasdy had other wives in a religious ceremony, call it a spiritual marriage, plural marriage, whatever. It was illegal and men have been indicted for participating in it.

  393. The men weren’t marrying the girls, they were sexually assaulting them. They just tricked the girls into thinking they were married by having a sham ceremony and calling it a “spiritual marriage”

  394. And that did nothing!!! They are as responsible as any man out there or father who contributed to these felonies.

    DD – I agree it took a lot of complicity for that corrupt system to exist. I think the mothers of young girls who were married off to older men should be charged.

    I just don’t think that locking every polygamist wife up and throwing away the key is a very workable solution to the problem.

    I’m much more in favor of a strategy that involves killing the beast by chopping off the head.

  395. Does prevailing wind really think that warren jeffs, who was on the FBI most wanted list at that time and who also had many other wives, would go to the local courthouse with a 12 year old girl and apply for a marriage license??
    The absence of such records at the courthouses proves nothing. As flds Texas noted, it would more properly be called sexual assault rather than marriage since the whole marriage thing was a disgraceful sham.

  396. Greeting your dealing with a hyper calvinist, who believe in the TULIP

    I’ve always found it highly ironic that those who preach things like predestination and the idea of God having some “elect,” usually feel that they were the ones predestined to be the elect.

    Yeah, right, God created 6 billion folks and is going to throw 4 billion non-Christians into a pit of fire. Then the Calvinists say he’s going to throw away those 1 billion idol worshiping Catholics as well as probably another half billion of those “not true” Christians.

    Geez, for an all powerful deity, this guy is not very efficient.

  397. The men weren’t marrying the girls, they were sexually assaulting them. They just tricked the girls into thinking they were married by having a sham ceremony and calling it a “spiritual marriage”

    ___________________________________

    I totally agree. These young girls were totally brainwashed into believing that it was ok because they were “married”.

  398. any thoughts on who is in charge and allowed pliggy back into the fold?

  399. No idea on what is, or has taken place regarding the flds leadership situation. I think something is happening there, but no idea exactly what. If someone new takes over while warren is still alive and warren does not affirm it in a known and transparent manner; it could prove to be very interesting.

  400. “Duane has a fundamental misconception about what constitutes “home”.

    The UEP was intended for FLDS faithful. If you are a devout Jew living on a kibbutz or even an enclave in New York like Kiryas Joel and decide to turn Bapistt or atheist, swear off all your former faith’s customs, you would leave, why else would you stay? If several devout jews did this and refused to leave or decided to leave but the authorities encouraged them to stay in order to provoke a conflict, of course their would be friction and in the real world, a public uproar over government interfering with a religigous sect.

    In Cement’s case, he was going to leave, but the county authorities encouraged him and others to stay and they would do what they can keep them there so as to provoke confrontation.
    This whole thing is a setup to justify the seizure of the Fundie Mormon’s land.

  401. “The UEP was intended for FLDS faithful.”

    The bulk of the UEP was formed long before the FLDS became a cohesive group — a fact which has been pointed out to you time, after time, after time.

    “This whole thing is a setup to justify the seizure of the Fundie Mormon’s land.”

    Just as the UEP was a setup to justify stealing labor and money from gullible young people. Life ain’t fair and what goes around comes around. Quit whining because it’s coming around. (My sage advice for the day.)

  402. The UEP was intended for FLDS faithful.

    You keep repeating this meme which is clearly false. The FLDS church dates to the late 1990’s while the UEP was founded in the early 1940’s. Besides that clear date issue, a whole lot changed in the faith the original trust participants were a part of.

    This whole thing is a setup to justify the seizure of the Fundie Mormon’s land.

    Again this is false. The only thing that has prevented seizure of the “Fundie Mormon’s” land is the action in Judge Lindberg’s court.

    Otherwise the “Fundie Mormon’s” would be paying a lot more than $100 per month to Elissa Wall and the lost boys.

    Keep going Duane – you’ve never let the facts stop you in the past.

  403. duane, you have no idea what your talking about. Cement didn’t decide NOT to follow his faith. He decided Warren Jeffs was a freakoid, pedoifile, pervert and he wasn’t going to follow HIM any longer. He didn’t change his faith, he didn’t change the tenents of his faith. He is still a Fundementalist Mormon, he just decided following the trash leading the group wasn’t worth it.

  404. Leave it to duane to deny non flds people the right to live where they want to live, but to want the flds to be able to live anywhere they want; including places where the local people don’t wqant them as neighbors. So duane if the flds want to live in Westcliffe, CO the local people just suck it up and get along with them. If cement or some other non flds people want to live in short creek, tough, you cannot live here. Move to Dallas or someplace. Is that how it is supposed to work, skinwalker. Your hypocrisy is galling?

  405. The UEP was intended for FLDS faithful.
    ===================

    I have noticed the Centennial Park group has been a lot more faithful to the teachings of the original settlors of the UEP than the FLDS have been, yet the FLDS tried to push the CP group out in the ’80s. The CP groups never called Joseph Musser an apostate and then suddenly wanted to turn him back into a faithful apostle when it came to the sale of Berry Knoll.

  406. Cement, duane ia a sockpuppet. You have to realize that, and ignore what he says. He is a frequent visitor to “swinger” clubs, and is trying his best to justify his sick behaviour.

  407. Someone on the Texas Polygamy blog asked if Stanley Jessop was now in charge. Anyone know anything about him?

  408. Oops – here’s the link: http://texaspolygamy.blogspot.com/2009/06/new-colorado-city.html

  409. Well, I’d think it would be rather difficult (maybe Cement can add to this) to abandon a living prophet.

    I also don’t understand why folks don’t think it might have been Warren Jeffs who let Pliggy back into the fold. Pliggy has said over and over how much he loves Warren.

    Obviously Warren’s ability to actually run the church is limited, but I tend to think he’s still ultimately the person in charge.

  410. well, if warren’s in charge, his leadership is only as good as those who visit and relay his messages. suppose naomie visits and he gives her a message, but she messes it up and it comes out as something entirely different. Now it’s naomie who’s giving the messages.

  411. I still believe in the one man rule–I am the one man that has the right to rule in my life. You are the one man that has the right to rule in your life. I’m done with this demigod and apostate nonsense, though.

  412. so who is stanley jessop and how’s he related to merril?

  413. “Move to Dallas or someplace. Is that how it is supposed to work”

    Actually I’m talking about UEP land only, not short creek proper. I’m sure there is plenty of land in the Short creek area that is not UEP.
    The FLDS in Westcliffe should be able to control who lives on the real estate they purchased and own. Same with YFZ, they should have control over who lives there or not, if someone at YFZ decides they are no longer going to follow the tenets and decide to convert to Southern Baptist, the YFZ residents should have the right to tell them they must go. At any rate why would they want to stay?

  414. duane: The uep land is not controlled by the flds corporation. Therefore the flds cannot kick anyone out who lives on UEP land.
    Please repeat this 10 times: the flds do not control the uep land, at this time Bruce Wisans and Judge Lindberg control the uep land.
    Now do you understand?? Probably not, but we keep trying.

  415. Well, duh, duane, we don’t want the flds in Texas; why would they want to stay?

  416. I still believe in the one man rule–I am the one man that has the right to rule in my life.

    Amen Cement. Although I’ve always interpreted Jesus’ words “you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free” the same way.

  417. TexasMom wrote: “So yeah, Hugh may in fact be earnestly seeking God, but from my view in the peanut gallery, it looks like he’s seeking a punisher — on a cosmic level.”

    That is an excellent insight into man’s relationship with God. Since God is without limits, it is very easy to ascribe characteristics to him based on our own psychological state or current situation.

    Often this happens very early on, in response to trauma. The attributes we apply to God can reflect the nature of people (such as our own fathers) who were influential in our character formation. This is not intentional—it is deeply subconscious—but it can be the source of much self-inflicted pain.

    I admire healers Chester and Betsy Kylstra very much. They identified a cycle of psychic injury which involves three components. These are spelled out in Genesis 3:10 when Adam responds to God after sinning:

    Fear: “I was afraid”
    Shame: “Because I was naked;”
    Control: “So I hid.”

    A deeply injured person can end up distorting his entire personality or belief system to maintain the fiction that he is in control. IMHO, this is also the mechanism by which people are bound into cults—the blight of the fear-shame-control cycle has taken over their entire life, so they identify totally with the damaged part of their psyche.

  418. Of course Bruce Wisan controls it now becasue it was taken from them in ’05. Sine the FLDS doesn’t own it and never had right to it, then why is the UEP being sued? How can Elissa sue the trust for what Warren and others allegedly did if the UEP never rightfully belonged to the “FLDS” which you guys keep asserting doesn’t really exist as a tangible entity.

  419. “I still believe in the one man rule–I am the one man that has the right to rule in my life. You are the one man that has the right to rule in your life”
    …………………………………………..

    I actually have come across something that I agree with on this blog.

  420. A friend once told me, “if you ever feel the need to follow someone, follow Jesus Christ”; and that’s what I try to go by.

  421. Duh duane don’t get mad at us as the FLDS sect house of cards starts falling. Whomever, advised them back in the day to create a non-profit religious trust as a vehicle to protect their landholdings should have, also, known that a third-party trust can not be created legally and recognized as a legitimate entity that performs/conducts illegal actions. Like it did under Warren S. Jeffs directions as the Trustee and then opens the UEPTrust vunerability(s)to lawsuits. See we’re back to the ‘perfect’ Prophet and ‘One Man Rule’ which caused all of these current problems but rather let’s discuss Judge Denise Lindberg, Bruce Wisan or AG Mark Shurtleff, that way we are at least ‘Keeping Sweet’ about the real culprit in this situation. duane wait until the Federal flight case comes to trial then you will see how becoming a fugitive just bled the UEPTrust to it’s present state.

  422. duane, you are, as usual, confused.

    The flds identifies itself as a religious group. Individual members of that group contributed money and property to the trust, which is a separate legal entity.

    As a former contributor to the trust, Elissa has the right to seek compensation from the trust. The fact that she is no longer a member of the flds doesn’t not have anything to do with the fact that the trust took her money and she wants it back.

  423. Duane,

    I really wish you would work on finding out where Ruby is and quit bothering yourself about the trust and who it belongs to and who it doesn’t belong to.

    If you want to make a believer out of all of us regarding their just a bunch of “good people trying to practice their religion” then find Ruby. When I see that she has the choice to stay or leave WITH her kids, then I will consider your views more carefully.

    As it stands, you get awfully quiet when her name comes up and you never really respond much at all about it. Can’t you talk to Pliggy about this since he’s back in and see if he can help you facilitate this?

    I’m still trying to deal with Hugh stating that “marriage is slavery”.

  424. Duane wrote: “If you are a devout Jew living on a kibbutz or even an enclave in New York like Kiryas Joel and decide to turn Baptist or atheist, swear off all your former faith’s customs, you would leave, why else would you stay?”

    I live in a neighborhood that is nearly as Ortho as Kiryas Joel. And to some degree I keep the customs of my neighborhood. I have a mezuzah on my doorframe and a scherenschnitte “Shalom” over my desk and an Israeli print on my mantle—and that’s just the stuff I can see from where I’m sitting.

    But I’m a born-again Christian. Nobody here has a problem with it. We’ve eaten in each other’s homes and celebrated and mourned together.

    There is absolutely no reason that people of different faiths can’t live side by side and be friendly and respectful to one another. My daughter once told me about an ‘argument’ at her school about whom God loved best—Christians, Jews or Muslims (they were all represented). They were laughing as they debated. Since they were raised together, they see each other through the lens of friendship, not religion.

  425. How can Elissa sue the trust for what Warren and others allegedly did if the UEP never rightfully belonged to the “FLDS” which you guys keep asserting doesn’t really exist as a tangible entity.

    That’s actually a very good question. Wisan apparently doesn’t feel that the trust can be sued by Elissa. However, if what you claim is true, i.e. the UEP belongs to the FLDS church, then it would be fair game for Elissa.

    Yet another Catch-22 for the FLDS.

  426. deci duane, let’s try one more time. Warren made himself the head of the uep board and discharged board members who were not his loyal boot lickers.
    Elissa sued the trust because at the time of the crimes committed against her, warren was in control of the trust. She also sued other entities and individuals besides the trust. There are and always have been beneficiaries of the trust other than flds people. Can you understand that. Some people that are now in the CP group and in the AUB group contributed to the trust. As cement noted the CP group has been more true to the original short creek fundie doctrines and practices than the flds have been. Ergo, the trust should be controlled by the CP group. Works for me.

  427. Ron: The trust was totally controlled by warren at that time warren was also the head of the church. Elissa’s arguement was that the church and the trust were essentially one and the same. Are you sure you really want duane skinwalker living in Texas??

  428. *sighs* He DOES live in Texas.

  429. Elissa sued UEPstrust because the “owner” is warren jeffs. remember One man rule, one man owns every house, ever inch of land, every human being who is in Flds. UEPtrust is a Corporation in which Warren Jeffs is sole owner,, oh he had some trustees but never had to get permission or an okay on how to do whatever he wanted to do.
    I think this was Parley Harker’s point of waiting to sign papers on Harker farms. Parley knew how warren did business. He wanted to make SURE that he and his family could dwell and run the farms perpetually from now on.
    The problem with Harker farms,,, Parley died in the hospital before the papers were actually signed by Parley. That’s why Warren was so pisssed at the Barlows and kicked some of them out. Just read the dictations about Parley Harker.
    So now what? Well Rod Parker was good to have bout that time. Because Parker saw to it, the papers GOT signed and Harker farms went into the trust… OH what a tangled web we weave , when we practice to decieve.

  430. Actual facts are to skinwalker as bright sunlight is to a vampire.They both skulk away into the darkness.

  431. “I still believe in the one man rule–I am the one man that has the right to rule in my life. You are the one man that has the right to rule in your life. I’m done with this demigod and apostate nonsense, though.”

    Words to live by — except in my case it’s one “woman” rule. 😉

  432. “I still believe in the one man rule–I am the one man that has the right to rule in my life. You are the one man that has the right to rule in your life. I’m done with this demigod and apostate nonsense, though.”

    Words to live by. Although in my case it’s one “woman” rule. 😉

  433. lol, Sorry about the double post. The first one didn’t show up so I thought the electronic gremlins ate it.

  434. “UEPtrust is a Corporation in which Warren Jeffs is sole owner”.

    Ohhh Okaayy, So Warren Jeffs was the owner of the UEP. He was arrested and convicted and the court confiscated the UEP from Jeffs in 2005. So then how is the trust which consists of benies who are flds and non-flds liable for what Warren did?

    If I do something bad to Ale Wife on my property and the court takes if from me and gives it to Ron, Can Ale Wife file a lawsuite against Ron since he is now owner of said property?

    But you guys know what you are doing, the trust is considered to be FLDS owned whenever it serves your interests, FLDS doesn’t have any right or claim to it when it doesn’t serve your interests.

    Based on Lindberg’s ruling, Wall’s lawsuite would be thrown in the real world. Fascinating how the law is abritrarily applied whenever it suits the purpose of the anti-flds.

  435. Really? Well, since you’re a self acknowledged liar …..
    ========================================================
    Sorry my friend but I never deliberately lie. I may share a rumor I read that turns out to be a falsehood and when called will acknowledge it as a false rumor.
    ===================================================
    I’m sure someone, somewhere, has missed the part where you said it was just fine and dandy to lie.
    ============================================
    Like Flora Jessop and Arizona?

  436. “But you guys know what you are doing, the trust is considered to be FLDS owned whenever it serves your interests, FLDS doesn’t have any right or claim to it when it doesn’t serve your interests.”

    And how is that different from what the FLDS are doing? The Trust is theirs except when it doesn’t suit them to be responsible for the atrocities committed by their leader while he was running the Trust and using it as his personal cash cow and club to force people into illegal acts. But he’s in jail now so it should just be a do over for everyone who aided and abetted in that abuse. Because their are children involved. Forget that Elissa was a child at the time. She isn’t a child anymore so she’s on her own. Forget that the children impacted now won’t be children forever either. Forget that without intervention even more 13, 14, 15 year old girls would be married and expecting children right now. Because Warren is in jail so we should ignore any other illegal acts by this group of “righteous” people using a trust that they stole from a sizeable portion of the beneficiaries.

  437. “Sorry my friend but I never deliberately lie. I may share a rumor I read that turns out to be a falsehood and when called will acknowledge it as a false rumor.”

    No, you actually said it was okay for you to spread lies because you’ve decided Flora and others lied first.

  438. Like Flora Jessop and Arizona?
    Alinusara10 said this on August 3, 2009 at 3:23 PM

    Okay, I’ll bite. Where has Flora Jessop ever stated that it is fine and dandy to lie.

    For that matter, what has she ever lied about, according to you?

  439. Does anyone have a clue as to what alin is talking about?? Maybe she is going back to something someone posted hours ago. I am surely not going to go look for it.
    duane, you would never do something bad to me on your property or anywhere else. You would have real bad done to you in that scenario.

  440. No, you actually said it was okay for you to spread lies because you’ve decided Flora and others lied first.
    ================================================
    I said spread rumors. And if the rumor turns out to be incorrect I happily retract said rumor.

  441. duane, you would never do something bad to me on your property or anywhere else. You would have real bad done to you in that scenario.
    ====================================================
    Sounds like you are making some sort of threat.

  442. Ali, do you have anything you would care to retract about Flora?

    Because going on the last 5 years I’ve been involved I’ve always been continually amazed at how right Flora has been proven, about everything.

    She’s effective. That makes some people love her and others hate her. Oh well.

    But I’d at least like to see you throw out some kind of for instance… You put it out there, Ali.

    What has Flora lied about?

  443. I’m still waiting for Alin to retract the rumor she so gleefully spread about Blues pulling his blog because he was “embarassed” about being “wrong” so often. (I believe she claimed that he was trying to avoid further embarassment when Tony Alamo got off on whatever — or was it supposed to be some other ruling? Regardless, so far Blues has been spot on, unlike Pharisee who so clearly demonstrates his lack of ethics AND his utter lack of legal know-how.)

  444. Flora said this on Nancy Grace:

    “if you have the audacity of getting pregnant when you`re — in your wife training by your father, they`ll give you an abortion with no anesthesia as punishment because if you were faithful enough, then you`re not supposed to get pregnant.

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0805/22/ng.01.html

  445. I thought the FLDS was anti-abortion.

  446. Duane, are you saying that’s a lie? Based on what information? I would imagine, given the level of perversion some of the men have shown, that Flora’s words could be 100% true in one of those families.

  447. duane, and you know that’s not true HOW?

  448. duane, I’m having a vision of you having an abortion, and something just doesn’t compute, yanno?

  449. “I thought the FLDS was anti-abortion.”

    I bet you thought they were anti-incest too, but some of the men clearly weren’t. You don’t think perverts like that would be perfectly willing to abort the evidence of their crime?

  450. Close Rebeckah, but no cigar.

    This was done TO Flora, personally. And it wasn’t the MEN doing it. WOMEN made sure her babies were aborted.

    Sweet, Carebear colored women.

    I guess if someone does this to you without blinking an eyelash, you might come away with the idea you’re not the only one.

    So um…the lie would be what? That she had the personal experience of being the victim of the crimes of rape, incest and forced abortion?

  451. I didn’t think of that, Boots, but you’re right — it was undoubtedly a woman who would be performing such a “clean up” of the evidence of crimes. But I’m sure it’s okay because even if the priesthood holder is wrong God will only bless you if you follow his orders. (Insert sarcastic expression here.)

  452. “it was undoubtedly a woman who would be performing such a “clean up” of the evidence of crimes”

    Why didn’t they abort the babies that were conceived by underage girls?

    So if this was done to Flora personally, why didn’t she say that?
    Flora is suggesting that this is common practice within the FLDS.

    So the FLDS is pro-abortion, is that correct?

  453. Another Flora fact:

    The group is reportedly comprised entirely of FLDS boys, ages 12 and up, and boasts a contingent at least 1,000 strong. “This is God’s army,” Jessop believes. “These are the ones that are supposed to go out and cleanse the North American continent in order for Jesus to come back” – or, at least, in order to protect Jeffs. “They are required … to take an oath,” Jessop says she’s been told, “that they will kill every member of their family on the order of the prophet.”

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy367.html

    So when is this “Army” going to launch their attack? I keep hearing that they kick out all the young boys so the old geezers get all the girls-I heard that 1000 boys were kicked out, yet at the same time they have an army of at least 1000 boys?

  454. Will not feed the troll; will not feed the troll; will not..
    OK, I am over it.

  455. “because even if the priesthood holder is wrong God will only bless you if you follow his orders”.

    I think you hit the nail on the head here because this is where Ron and others won’t draw a hard line like I will.

    It is okay to believe the statement made above. There is no law against believing the statement is true. When the priesthood holder is wrong, criminally wrong, you are choosing to obey what you believe and moving it into an action.

    No matter how much abuse these grown women have ever suffered, they are still responsible for their own actions. When those actions endanger children or result in the commission of a felony act, they are responsible.

    It doesn’t matter what you believe [“because even if the priesthood holder is wrong God will only bless you if you follow his orders”.] , or why; you’ve broken the law.

    The anti-polygamy/bigamy laws are here for us to use to protect Texas children from these actions in the future.

  456. At least they should give the girls anesthesia when they do the abortions. I guess they enjoy hearing the torturous screams of pain, is that right?

  457. Duane,

    I would put Flora’s sources of info or ::gasp:: even mine in Short Creek into the trustworthy category, way before I would put Pliggy in there, lol!

    Good luck with that, bubba.

  458. So Boots, Do you how many girls were forced to undergo abortions with no anesthesia, 1000? 2000? Any rough estimates?

  459. “Jessop says she’s been told, ” directly from your post duhduane, are you saying you have proof that she wasn’t told that?

    “-I heard that 1000 boys were kicked out, yet at the same time they have an army of at least 1000 boys?” – duane,

    When the population of Short Creek is 70% under the age of 16 and births are 50/50 male/female, they could very easily kick out 1000 boys under the age of 16 and still have 2000 or 3000 left and still give all the old geezers 2 or 3 underage girls.

  460. Boots, how many blood atonement victims were disposed of in the crematorium that “furnace” helped to construct?
    Oh I forgot!! That was wasn’t true, the furnace was actually used to make cement according to “Cement” who says he used to be “furnace”, but how do we know for sure? Perhaps “cement” is an flds plant trying to throw off LE.

  461. No clue how many, Duane. I only know they did it to Flora without flinching. For a religion to claim they are pro-life, I would think even a seasoned R.N. would hesitate or flinch a little during the “proceedure” if they had never done it before.

    I can’t think of any of my own pro-life M.D. or R.N. friends who would be able to perform a proceedure like that without some sort of emotional reaction.

    Maybe its a woman thing and that’s why you can’t understand the concept? Maybe you’ve never had a forced abortion after your daddy has used you as his personal sex toy, Duane?

    I’m trying to understand you…really…no wait. Really, I don’t give a rat’s behind if I ever understand you.

  462. duane: You had an opportunity to vist with Boots and Flora at a book signing. You could have asked Flora directly about your concerns, but you chickened out. Most probably because you don’t really want to know the truth about the flds. I am sure you could find a way to contact Flora if you really wanted to get her take on what she has said. Of course, you will chicken out again.

  463. I gotta ask…..Why do you guys keep answering duane when he asks the SAME questions over’n over’n over and brings up the SAME debunked theories of silliness? He doesn’t seem to want to learn #1) any truth but what he wants to hear and #2)that he is wrong 99% of time.
    I just thought I’d ask.

  464. On my part, I feel that new people drop by the blog all the time. They may not post but they do read. They may not go back and read 9 pages of 500+ posts each.

    And I’d hate to see his words left to stand unchallenged.

    Every argument the FLDS has against the survivor’s accounts is built on the accusation that they are all liars.

    Duane cannot stand it that the evidence is coming out and the survivors are not liars at all.

  465. Actually, I think we need a new story. I think I’ll go read some more about Berry Knoll and the Ghost Dance.

  466. We don’t sing them kind of songs no more…

  467. Hmmm: You have an excellent point. I will try harder in the future to not feed the duane troll. As you say, he brings nothing new to the party, just regurgitates the same old carp.

  468. boots, who performed the abortion on Flora, what was her name? Who else assisted? What did they use, forceps, suction, or perhaps a coat hanger? Would love to hear the details and names of people involved in this sordid incident.

    Chemist, to be honest I was afraid to out myself, perhaps at some point in the future I will, but not now.

  469. Sally Nielson the midwife at YFZ ranch let an underage girl go 72hrs in HARD labor, she was so scared, she discussed the girl’s situation with Dr Barlow,,, Warren didn’t like that… After the child delivered the baby, Warren called and Jumped Sally’s ass for talking to Dr Barlow about it, or thinking of taking the girl to the hospital…. DUANE!!!

  470. duane we all already know who you are.

  471. Anyone besides me notice that our OTHER troll, the wonderful rumor spreader Alin, STILL hasn’t taken back her trash talk rumor mongering about Blues? Alin, like Duane, has diarrhea of the keyboard and the morality of an FLDS lying for the Lord.

    “I never “knowingly” lie.” (But I’ll spread a lie that any moron knows is probably a lie.)
    “I will retract my statement when it is proven false.” (Yeah, when a place which is reputed to be very warm freezes over.)

    As for Duane, I suggest a simple response: “We don’t deal with trolls, Duane, go peddle your misinformation and ask your deceptive questions elsewhere.”

  472. Rebeckah, Alin spends way to much time on Mudpuckys site.

  473. “boots, who performed the abortion on Flora, what was her name? Who else assisted? What did they use, forceps, suction, or perhaps a coat hanger? Would love to hear the details and names of people involved in this sordid incident.”

    Quid Pro Quo, Duane, you answer some of the countless questions you’ve avoided, giving names dates and details and then maybe people will answer your stupid questions. Why should they bother trying a dialogue with someone who only knows how to monologue.

    “Polygamy is a First Amendment right.”
    “Polygamists should be able to live where ever they want but those who decide the religion isn’t for them should get out of dodge.”
    “Polygamists are pure, upright saints and everyone knows all “apostates” are evil liars.”
    “Polygamy makes women HAPPY!”

    I could go on but my fingers feel dirty now.

  474. Actually, DD1, the lies she spread about Blues she claims to have gotten from Pharisee’s site.

  475. Well, Blues isn’t the type person who would close his site down unless it had been something like he said, surgery.
    Blues is the first person to admit if he is wrong. He wouldn’t close his site for anything like that. Oh im sure pharisee of mudpucky would love for him to close his site,, because BLUES knows the law and he is an astute researcher.
    But, Im glad the surgery was put off, so he could keep it open.

  476. Eldorado Success is reporting that last week while the trial dates were being agreed to and scheduled that the first case, namely Raymond Jessops, had a degree of Felony adjusted downwardly from ‘First’ to ‘Second’ degree. Seems his date of statutory rape preceded the change in the statute, lessening his chargeable defense to the earlier code. Seems this would impact his sentencing term(s), if convicted?

  477. Sally Nielson the midwife at YFZ ranch let an underage girl go 72hrs in HARD labor, she was so scared, she discussed the girl’s situation with Dr Barlow,,, Warren didn’t like that… After the child delivered the baby, Warren called and Jumped Sally’s ass for talking to Dr Barlow about it, or thinking of taking the girl to the hospital…. DUANE!!!

    _______________________________

    it was sally’s own daughter janet who was underaged and having a kid by raymond jessop, the one he’s indicted over to be exact. funny thing, janet also has an older child by ray’s brother. wonder how he likes knowing his brother had her first yet he’s going to go to jail for her.

  478. Yes, I imagine it would. Since second degree felonies are lesser felonies they’d have a lesser sentencing spread.

  479. Cajim .. That is correct. This was an error in the initial charging instrument. Back in February Raymond’s defense attorney and the prosecutors agreed that the charges should be amended to reflect the proper offense without the enhancement that had not yet been enacted.

  480. DD – the girl whose health Sally Jeffs Nielson risked to protect the Priesthood was her own daughter Janet, one of Raymond’s underage “wives”

  481. BTW – Dan Barlow, among others, has been restored to FLDS membership. Apparently these guys who have recently been let back in are not restored to their homes or families, however. (e.g. Al Holm)

  482. FLDS said: “Apparently these guys who have recently been let back in are not restored to their homes or families….”

    hrmmmm…psssst…I understand there are about 80-ish martyred-prophet-wives languishing in their duty to build planets. maybe these Re-Verts could pick up the slack, eh? er…just a thought.

  483. What does warren call his wives that used to be his mothers? Mommie Dearest?

  484. Hey FLDS, how many “wives” does Raymond have? Did he get any more of those taken from Ernest when he was exed?

  485. Raymond has nine wives. A couple are Ernest’s retreads.

  486. LadySadie What do FLDS members call long lost cousins that they haven’t married in the past decade?

    Second cousins?

    ProudTexan the Warrenites obviously believe strongly in celestial recycling, it keeps them away from messy divorces and the dreaded alimony payments/child support.

  487. Can you imagine what it’s like for a girl to be told from birth, stay away from boys- treat them as snakes, so you grow up not ever realizing it’s ok to be friends and have meaningful friendships with boys, then your assigned to marry someone you don’t know, submit to his physical needs (the women aren’t supposed to have any), so here is your first lesson in intimacy, you manage to endure that only to be told for some reason he has been chosen as unworthy and the family is re-assigned multiple times to different men ?

    How do they ever learn “trust” after that?

    How does it teach “faith”?

    If your the chosen people, why do you constantly re-cycle your chosen over and over? Are they really not “the chosen”?

  488. In many of the survivor’s books, it states they are taught that “Polygamy doesn’t fail people, people fail polygamy”

    Polygamy is not a standard to live your life by. It is a concept that was thought up by MEN, controlled by MEN, and enforced by MEN.

    I see a huge lack of confidence in the women of FLDS. Their self-esteem is so low, they never realize they don’t have to “settle for sharing a man”.

    When you realize your own self worth, you may then set standards for your life and how you want to live it.

  489. Yeah, I’ll bet Raymond was fuming when he got arrested for impregnating Janet since she was having her 2nd child. She already had one with Ernest when she was even younger.

  490. FLDS Texas – do you know who the husband of Lenora Jeffs, Teresa’s older sister is? I saw lots of pictures of her with a couple of kids, but she was always referred to as “Jeffs” but since she is Annette’s daughter, that’s not her “married” name.

  491. What’s this on Blue’s blog? Warren trying to starve himself to death again? Do you think he’s trying to clear the way for the next “prophet” or atone for his crimes against those whose trust he betrayed? (Or both?) Of coursse that leads to the question, can it be “blood atonement” if you don’t actually spill your blood?

  492. Someone asked if Stanley Jessop was the new leader. According to Ben Bistline’s book Stanley Jessop was a member of Sam Barlow’s goon squad, when Sam was the sheriff’s deputy. Members of the goon squad were picked for their fanatical belief in Sam and the prophet.

  493. Aren’t most abortion procedures performed without anesthesia?

  494. What do you guys think about this article?

    Only You. And You. And You.
    Polyamory—relationships with multiple, mutually consenting partners—has a coming-out party.

    http://www.newsweek.com/id/209164

    The feature story is 2 dudes sharing a woman. Seems these men have a huge lack of confidence, they don’t realize they don’t have to “settle for sharing a woman”. Maybe we should organize a “rescue”.

    Also check out this blog by a newly minted polygamist, you would like some of the comments
    http://megans-polyblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/weekend-wedding.html#comments

    Nice exchange here:

    demoiselle said…
    yet another barely legal “bride” lured in ….

    August 1, 2009 9:25 PM
    FallenStar said…
    Excuse me, but if I remember right Macy is in her late 20s and completely legal. Seriously Demoiselle, if you don’t agree with the lifestyle and you think Megan is fake. Then stop reading and polluting the comments. If it bothers you that much, then go join a Polygamy hating support group, there are tons of them, so go jump on that boat. I can assure you the readers here are here cause they either live the life, want too, or support it.

    Seriously Demoiselle back the heck off and shut up.

    Megan, Sorry but I was getting sick of reading her or his or its crap. Anyways, I hope Macy had a lovely wedding and I hope your school is getting easier.

    Heeheehee!

  495. “Aren’t most abortion procedures performed without anesthesia?”

    Depends on the type of abortion. A chemical abortion, i.e. one that is caused by taking a pill of some sort, doesn’t generally need anesthetic. However one which requires any invasive procedure for the womb should be anesthetized. There are a lot of nerve endings in the uterus. (Trust me, I know!)

  496. I’d be willing to bet that most secular polyamourous relationships don’t last. The conflicts and jealousy are probably too much of a strain without some religion to quell those problems.

  497. From Blues site:

    Court filing on Jeff’s hunger strike

  498. Notice how the Duane-troll STILL hasn’t answered the questions put before it but wants to go on yet ANOTHER sidetrack. lol

    Yes, Duane, I read the article. The difference between those two men and the women of religiously mandated polygyny is that those two men didn’t choose to share this woman because the big boogy-man in the sky wasn’t going to let them into the extra special Celestial clubhous if they didn’t. You know that, though, don’t you. You just get that special thrill downstairs at the thought of coercing women and children into subservience, right?

  499. “I’d be willing to bet that most secular polyamourous relationships don’t last. The conflicts and jealousy are probably too much of a strain without some religion to quell those problems.”

    I think it would be very instructive if some bright doctorial student did a study on that. I really wonder just what the “retention” rate of polyamorous unions are.

  500. “Aren’t most abortion procedures performed without anesthesia?”

    I don’t know but Flora specified that FLDS performs their abortions with no anesthesia so I was thinking that non-FLDS aborters use anesthesia. Funny thing is, Pliggy tells me that the FLDS are adamantly anti-abortion and I got roasted by FLDS for speaking out against the abortion provider who was recently murdered. I guess this is just another example of Pliggy and the FLDS “lying for the Lord” which is of course, a central part of their doctrine.

    Boots ought to recruit anti-abortion groups to picket the Hilldale clinic since we all know now that it doubles as an abortion clinic, the aborted fetuses buried in the secret graveyards uncovered by Boots.

  501. Actually duane, the clinic in Hildale doesn’t bother to bury the unborn fetus they just throw it away with the garbage. And that was not from Mighty Flora that was from another survivor of the cult.

  502. “And that was not from Mighty Flora that was from another survivor of the cult.”

    Don’t confuse the troll with facts — it might just have to go on a hunger strike too.

  503. Maybe if we just ignore the duane troll he will go away. That is what I plan on doing.

  504. I’ll try, ale wife. I have poor impulse control, though. But I’ll try…

  505. If you had read Flora’s book, Duane, you would know exactly who performed the abortion and why.

    You would also know that it was performed without any medication and by something similar to a “coat hanger”.

    Anymore questions or comments?

  506. Let’s see Christians believe that Christ is the Way the Truth and the Life. Warren S. Jeffs is now on suicide watch which says his way, half truths and planned for death seems the exact opposite of Christ’s message?

    Which Christian church preaches the sanctity of life during pregnancy, yet allows it’s spiritual leader the choice to take his own life. Seems to be a conflict in Faith going forward but let’s see what the Seer and Revelator does to amend his actions. Does the tenet of the FLDS sect ‘Blood Atonement’ include suicide or self inflicted murder?

  507. How many abortions do you guys reckon the Hilldale clinic performs every year?

  508. I have thought about ignoring Duane also, but I do realize he has a purpose even if he doesn’t know what his purpose is.

    Everytime he comes on and states some crazy story, comment, example or what-ifs, we all rush in to correct him with the facts.

    So actually we end up discussing the subject much more in detail and bringing to light all the many discrepancies that are in the group because of his crazy comments.

    He is certainly within his rights to have a dissenting opinion, however, when that opinion is at the cost of women and children being abused & controlled, well, that opinion doesn’t mean much, does it?

  509. “Does the tenet of the FLDS sect ‘Blood Atonement’ include suicide or self inflicted murder?”

    Yes, Blood Atonement is essentially the killing of oneself. The only problem I see is that starving yourself does not involve the spilling of blood, and that’s an essential component of Blood Atonement, from the way it was set up, at least.

  510. I find it so ironic that Warren accused the US government over and over again of wanting him dead when it is really himself who wants him dead. What’s that called? Transferrence?

  511. I think you should investigate that very question, Duane.

    Impress us.

    Do your homework.

    But by all means, make sure it’s correct, because we certainly will.

  512. Mississippi, he doesn’t want to investigate — that might give him answers that don’t support his power trip ideals. What he wants is to try and confuse others who might not bother to do their own homework. He is what he has accused Cement and others of being — someone who comes where he isn’t wanted simply to stir up trouble.

  513. So warren is refusing to eat and is suffering ill health as a result. Judge Conn basically said the Court cannot move him anyplace else so the Mojave County jail will have to force feed and monitor warren.
    In his dictations, warren prophesied that in September ( he never specified what year) he would be miraculously freed from prison. Maybe he is trying to fulfill his prophecy by killing himself.
    Anyone who still believes that this nut case is a prophet must be nutters themselves.
    The TexasBluesMan site has the documents. Thanks for providing the link Ron.

  514. So the sociopathic Warren is on a hunger fast again.

    Psychopathy (sociopathy) is an incurable mental disorder. Warren is probably depressed because his desires are thwarted, and they could give him anti-depressants, but nothing will cure his fundamental disorder—he wants to be king and he can’t.

    It’s in everyone’s best interest to keep him alive in jail. The last thing we need is for the FLDS to invent a myth of a “martyred” Warren Jeffs.

    (Thanks for the heads-up, TBM.)

  515. I agree, GFNY, I think he is depressed because none of his wishes are being granted and it is incurable.

    I see what Chemist said about the September thing, and I would be really interested to know why he has decided to “throw in the towel” at this point.

    Sexual Frustration is my guess. It’s a killer.

  516. If warren wants to die, let him! Thats my thought. Sorry, I have NO compassion or empthy for all the little girls he has screwed, nor the people’s lives who so without compassion ruined!

  517. Maybe they sent a messenger to tell Warren he has been replaced.

  518. DD1, it’s not a compassion issue to keep him alive. Keeping him alive proves, yet again, that he isn’t the prophet because 1) he doesn’t die in September, 2) the Government didn’t kill him, he killed himself and 3) the walls to his prison are not thrown down and he walks out a free man to become King of the United States. Also, as long as he’s alive there are issues with the leadership of the FLDS, since you can’t really have two living prophets, now can you? And, finally, no one except the FLDS wants to see Warren turned into a martyr, although the FLDS seem to have some loophole where you can become a martyr without dying first. It’s very odd. Then again, just how do you become a martyr by starving yourself to death too? It makes my head hurt trying to figure out the extreme emotionalism of this group of people.

  519. Sexual Frustration is my guess. It’s a killer.

    Nah, besides Warren was already practiced at having multiple sex partners. My guess is that its hard to go from the one screwing everybody else to, well, you get the idea.

  520. By the way, I think it’s right on the mark for him to be starving himself to death because of his need for power and his inherent powerlessness right now. It has been strongly indicated that anorexia is about power and control and not weight loss. What he is doing right now is simply a more rapidly fatal form of anorexia. How very horrible for him that even that control is removed from him and he is being force fed. As abhorrent I have found his actions to be, I must to confess to some pity for him now. For a person like him, this truly is torture. Granted, it’s torture he engineered and orchastrated, but it’s still torture.

  521. lol Now, Ron, you know it is highly unlikely that Warren has suffered that indignity. Not that it wouldn’t be poetic justice, but I’m sure that since he’s in isolation and on a suicide watch that no one has actually had a chance to get to him.

  522. FLDS Texas go check your FLDSTexas email

  523. If I look really deep and hard, I can find pity for the child that Warren once was and what was done to him that would have caused him to hurt so many people.

    But that is the extent of my compassion.

    I feel now, what goes around comes around. How many women has he sent to houses of hiding where they were under the control of their “jailer” ?

    Let him see what it’s like to spend the rest of his life with “our jailers”.

  524. Ron/Rebeckah are you two suggesting that Warren’s prospects of a marital match in prison will be without his choosing and he may be forced to marry a cell block bull? Is this why the suicide watch? Warren has to adjust to his new surroundings more, like the Warden is in charge for now, the Jailers are too busy to give individual attention to each inmate, each cell block bull gets to choose his cellmate and the good thing is Warren isn’t likely to become pregnant from any intimacy he may forced to experience. Actually, pay back is hell when the perpetrator becomes the victim, kinda poetic though.

  525. caJim, Warren has been in isolation since day one, from what I understand. I assume that they’re afraid to place him in the general population because it would probably be an instant death sentence. As my children would say — “Death by BuFu.” (The tag line of some joke they have that I can’t quite remember.)

  526. Actually caJim the guys name was Rosco. Although I’m sure Rosco had a revelation that Warren was to be sealed to him before anything took place.

  527. lol, Ron you are such a bad man! 😆

  528. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32282467/ns/world_news-africa

    The FLDS men could learn something about being a person of honor and integrity from this woman. SHE isn’t afraid to face the consequences of her “civil disobedience”. In fact, she and the woman supporting her appear to have more balls than all the men in the FLDS and Islamic community combined. You go girl!

  529. New Article by SLT

    http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_12989388
    “Polygamous sect leader Warren S. Jeffs has resumed eating, allowing Mohave County Jail staff to stop force feeding him, a county spokeswoman said Tuesday.
    The jail’s medical staff began force-feeding Jeffs on Friday after he became debilitated by a self-imposed fast.
    “This has been a continuing problem with his on and off eating habits,” said Trish Carter, Mohave County Sheriff’s Office spokeswoman. “We’ve had to force feed him in the past.”

  530. They should just leave warren’s feeding tube down his nose permanently and force feed him when needed. Then just yank it out for court appearances. This monster deserves no pity.

  531. Well how long did he NOT eat, before they force fed him? Religious people go on fasts when there is something major going to happen, in Warren’s case it was the hearing last week. If you ask me the Mohave Jail people are enabling this jerk. He should be in general population till his next trial, like very other criminal. why is he getting special treatment??

  532. DD1, because they don’t need a martyr. Far more effective, from a legal and social perspecive to have Warren in jail and paying for his crimes. As for how long he fasted, given the report of edema and deteriorating vital signs, I’d say for quite a while. Warren seems to have been something of an anorexic for a long time. Now he’s just taking it to an extreme — which is a normal response for a control freak deprived of control. Heck, he can’t even berate young girls for “thinking” about boys anymore. Poor man…

    (Yes, that was sarcasm.)

  533. why is he getting special treatment??

    Actually, his confinement is much more restrictive. They’ve got him in a maximum security solitary lockup. He’s only let out 1 hour a day to exercise. That’s about the worst thing they can do to you in jail. They do it partly to protect him from other inmates but also because of his frequent suicide attempts.

  534. He’s really damaging his body for certain. I’d imagine he’s pretty close to kidney failure as evidenced by the peripheral edema.

  535. Well for awhile he had a computer in his cell. Guess someone complained and they took it away from him. Well at least they didn’t fly him to a hospital this time like they did last time

  536. Actually, DD, I didn’t exactly “complain”. I called a Mohave County elected official and demanded to know what was going on and why he was being allowed the lap top and phone.

    The elected official contacted the Mohave County Sheriff’s Office and asked what was going on. He was told by the Mohave County Under Sheriff, Jim McCabe that this was untrue.

    The next day Warren Jeffs fell “gravely ill” and was promptly choppered out of state to a hospital in Vegas, after the Kingman Hospital could find “nothing wrong” with him.

    I proceeded to submit a freedom of information act request for records of all items allowed to him in his cell.

    Before I had received a response to my freedom of information / public records request back from Mohave County, almost two weeks later, I was fired from my job as the publicist for a major resort & casino in the area. I was fired for speaking out publicly about the abuses, the high infant mortality rate, accidental child deaths and the cemetery in Short Creek….no bones about it.

    Even Harry Reid knew that.

  537. Honestly, I do feel some pity for him. Spending so much time alone with pretty much nothing to do is just about the worst thing you can do to a narcissistic and controlling personality like his. There’s a lot of research which shows that that kind of environment makes mental illness and depression worse. Granted, Warren has done terrible things to others and he’s pretty much made his bed himself, but it is still sad to see another human being brought to such a pass. If it weren’t for the martyr factor I’d vote for letting him off himself too, but no version of the Mormon faith needs another martyr to cry and wail about.

  538. The difference between those two men and the women of religiously mandated polygyny is that those two men didn’t choose to share this woman because the big boogy-man in the sky wasn’t going to let them into the extra special Celestial clubhous if they didn’t

    So it is ok as long as polywhatever is not “religiously” motivated. What about the Baptist preacher who proclaims hell for anyone who drinks or dances? What about the Pope who says birth control is a sin? Should we ban religions from mandating behaviour that would be legal if not for their religious underpinnings.

    No need to answer, the ban on Mormon polygamy is simply an attempt to ban a religion that we don’t approve of.

    When a polygamy case inevitably makes its way to the higher courts, hopefully articles like the Newsweek piece I posted, are used in their defense.

  539. I highly doubt that Warren ever had a computer and cell phone in his cell. Now people smuggle cell phones in but that’s a whole lot different than the Sheriff allowing an inmate to have a cell phone.

  540. the ban on Mormon polygamy is simply an attempt to ban a religion that we don’t approve of

    Um, Duane polygamy is banned for everyone including your polyamorous secular buddies.

    But, hey, don’t let the facts get in your way.

  541. Ron:

    My life a year ago.

    Don’t believe it if you don’t want to. I’m just sayin’…

    July 16, 2008
    Senator Harry Reid
    528 Hart Senate Office Bld.
    Washington, D.C. 20510

    Dear Senator Reid,

    I would like very much to thank you for taking a stand on the FLDS and crimes within Polygamy in America.

    Although I have never voted for you, I am one of your constituents and I am very proud of you; and I’m also very proud that you are representing me there in Washington.

    I’m from Texas, sir, and I have lived in Nevada for going on three years now. I have been involved with investigating the abuses within the FLDS and polygamy in general, first in the capacity of a reporter and then as an advocate of the survivors, as well as being a proponent of better law enforcement regarding the issue.

    I have kept my Texas plates, sir, the entire time I have lived in Nevada for one reason. If someone wants to run me off the road or put a bullet through my head, or make me disappear in the desert, I want them to have to pass and see those Texas plates several times. Because, where I come from I am loved and would be missed. Where I come from all the people with the badge and the gun are “the good guys”. We trust them and respect them, deeply. They represent the laws we all agree to live by and protection for the kind of civilization we all want to live in and to be a part.

    I have not found the same to be true with our friends across the river in Arizona. Instead I have continually seen signs of corruption at the local Mohave County level, specifically regarding the FLDS. I said as much last month on live local television in an interview. I am definitely sticking to the Nevada side of the river now, unless I am on business for my employer, the XXXXXXX XXXXXXXXX.

    I have eye witness accounts from two prisoners, who were in the Mojave County Jail and saw Warren Jeffs allowed having possession of a phone and laptop computer in his cell.

    When I asked a Mohave County Supervisor, Buster Johnson-District 3, to ask the sheriff’s department, he was told by Mohave County Undersheriff McCabe in no uncertain terms-that was not the case and all Jeffs had access to- were “two books and one legal document at a time.” That is what they relayed to Supervisor Johnson when he questioned them, knowing that information was for the public, since he was elected to represent it.

    I asked a local journalist if he would ask Mohave County Sheriff, Tom Sheahan if it were true. His response was strictly off the record, that indeed “that had been the case but now the situation has been remedied.”

    I have requested the Mohave County Jail logs for that time period and expect to have a lot more eye witnesses to Jeffs’ access to a laptop computer, soon.

    I have also requested all written documentation of items allowed to Warren Jeffs for the same time period by staff at the Mohave County Jail, be they written, electronic or telephonic.

    Additionally I have requested Jeffs’ visitor logs, wanting to see if visitations happened to have decreased while he was in possession of the laptop in his cell. Does he still have a phone?

    Was this special privilege, which has now been removed, documented or not? Who has it now? What was on it? Did Jeffs have internet access and if so was he using the county’s wireless or a phone line to access it on a daily basis? Who signed off on the laptop? Whose password was used? Was he able to email? Was anyone disciplined for this error in judgment? On and on…

    Sheriff Sheahan is running for his third or fourth term right now, unopposed by either party.

    If my public records requests aren’t already there, in the Mohave County Manager’s office, they will be by tomorrow and they will all know, without doubt, that I have caught them in a public lie.

    I sincerely hope that Nevada, like Texas, cares for and protects its law abiding citizens. I am, so far, very proud of my adoptive state and most especially of you.

    I would encourage you to please contact Supervisor Johnson’s office, sir, as he has been devotedly working on this case for ten years now and also has a background in law enforcement, working undercover. I believe he has valuable information that could be a boon to your line of reasoning that this should, indeed, be a federal case.

    My very kindest and warmest regards,

    k.Dee Ignatin
    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
    Laughlin, NV XXXXXXXXX
    Direct: 702-XXXXXXXX
    Cell: 702-XXXXXXXXX

    Cc: Sgt. XXXXXXXX, Texas Rangers, Company XX

  542. I recommend that posters here not feed the duane troll. It may be difficult to resist doing so, but maybe he will go away if no one feeds him. We can only hope.

  543. I’m sorry Boots but when a story begins “I have eyewitness accounts by two prisoners” you’re already straining the credibility meter.

    Not saying it didn’t happen, but it just really is frankly a little too tin foil hat for me.

  544. Duh duane polygamy was illegal in England before the United States was formed and we adopted the practice under the moral turpitude laws that were adjudged as proper and legal in all respective States that have joined our Union. This would have begun to occur before Joseph Smith was even born, so your claim that it is aimed solely at FLDS Mormons is simply wrong. United States has never allowed polygamy to legally exist anywhere within it’s borders. Also, there was a time that Prohibition existed but has since been repealed and not all/any form of abortions are legal, the term and methods are prescribed and licensed by each State and vary respectively.

    For your information we still deny visas, diplomatic immunity and citizenship based upon moral turpitude violations, that would include bigamy. Why? We wish to protect our societal practices and community traditions. A Saudi Prince can’t bring his harem legally into the United States and you say Warrenites can bring plural wives from Utah to Texas, seems your mistaken, again.

  545. “So it is ok as long as polywhatever is not “religiously” motivated.”

    It’s about sexual coercion. While you might find the idea appealing, it’s illegal and if I have anything to say about it, will remain illegal.

  546. Well, I can tell you this much Ron, if I hadn’t personally known the individual who reported this to me, and their character before their arrest for a first time DUI and a sentence of 10 days in county jail, I certainly would never have risked everything that I did.

    You’re right, to have risked everything for a witness you didn’t believe in 100%– would be “tin foil”.

    So either I’m “tin-foil” or I sure do believe I’ve got one slam dunk of a case against these..ummm..questionable Mohave County law enforcement personel.

    You’re right, quality and credibility is everything.

    Ron, if you were ever arrested for a DUI and were serving a jail sentence for it, then witnessed something highly irregular and potentially illegal while there…do you think any of us should refuse to believe you, because you were in jail? Have you completely lost all credibility as a human being after that?

  547. Sorry, Ale Wife, but I can’t ignore the ludicrous comparison of religiously mandated polygyny with not drinking or dancing. Only a moron would come up with it, but unfortunately there are a lot of people who skim instead of thinking about what they’re reading and I’m afraid too many would agree before they actually thought about it.

    If two gay dogs go into a bar and marry a cat is religiously mandated polygyny still illegal?

  548. Duane said, What about the Baptist preacher who says proclaims everyone who drinks or dances is going to hell? Or the Pope who doesn’t believe in birth control?
    ****************************

    duane, fortunately for any baptist preacher who teaches that, most christians are responsible for their own interpretation of scripture. I don’t think have a glass of wine, or dancing will send anyone to hell.

    As for the Pope and birth control, he has a right to believe whatever he wants, as to teach his beliefs to catholics, but the second he starts checking bathroom cabinets for birth control pills, he can be arrested. Because the Law is you can take birth control, you can legally have an abortion, you can drink as long as you are of age, but if you drink underage, or your drinking causes someone to die becasue you were drunk, then its YOU who will suffer the consequences not the pope, or the baptist preacher.

  549. Is the Pope in jail for the pediofilia of priests duane? Maybe he should be, after all he won’t allow them to marry.

  550. Hey, TexasMom!!! Happy birthday!!

  551. Well Boots people do see funny things when they’re drying out.

    What you’re suggesting is that there is some rampant corruption in the Mohave County Sheriff’s that allowed Warren Jeffs to blatantly violate the rules of the county jail. Why would some low level jailer risk their job? Or are you actually saying this was a “wink, wink” “nudge, nudge” deal that went all the way to the elected County Sheriff?

    My understanding is that Jeffs is in administrative segregation which makes it highly unlikely that the inmate/witness even saw him let alone saw the inside of his cell.

    Sorry, the story just doesn’t add up.

  552. Rebeckah: I fully understand and am in full agreement with your valuation;
    “only a moron would come up with it” That is so true of this troll’s posts; moronic, juvenile, illogical, etc.

  553. Well, I tell you what, Ron. My witness is willing to sign a sworn affidavit, which would quickly answer some but not all of your questions. After all, this person can only testify to what they saw, how they saw it, not what the motivations behind the incidents might be.

    Nobody in law enforcement has ever asked for it, though, so who else would I show it to besides you, and how will that help me, and why would I put the witness at risk with no offer of protection from law enforcement outside of MC, where the witness still lives, btw…

    Call me “tin-foil” if you want to. I’m responsible for keeping people safe.

    I think I’ve made myself perfectly clear here. Yes, Mohave County, including the sheriff’s department shows blatant corruption to polygamy and specifically to the FLDS organization, whom they maintain many current business contracts with in the county.

    I find the whole thing rather amusing sometimes, when Mohave County has Warren Jeffs standing trial, and their Board of Supervisors is still awarding contracts to FLDS owned businesses.

  554. “duh duane polygamy was illegal in England before the United States was formed”

    So was adultery, homosexuality, oral sex, and perhaps fornication in one form or another. I don’t advocate these acts nor do I approve of them. Well, I believe gays should be unmolested but have taken a harder view of legally sanctioned gay marriage since Carre Prejean was pilloried in the media for expressing the exact same viewpoint as the majority of Californians evidence being Prop 8 and because gays are suing church owned venues; But that is another story. The MSM doesn’t always reflect the majority view.

    Basically, behavior that you or I may find immoral-especially when it comes to private consensual activity between adults, whether poly, bedding your 20 yr. gf and her 40 yo mother (not me but someone I know), naked rituals (Wiccans), and other carnal activities, should not be criminalized. If an FLDS woman says she is happy I’m going to take her word for it just as I would with Rebeckah, Depooty Dawg, Cajim, Boots and of course Al Holm.

  555. Oh deputydawg, yeah I agree priests should be allowed to marry. That is a dumb rule and probably leads to such abuse but we shouldn’t thow them in jail if they don’t get married on the mere belief that they MAY become pedos.

  556. The point was that the claim that the FLDS Mormons are being singled out and targeted in the long history of Western Civilizations rejection of bigamy lays that claim to be another one of your lies. Moral Turpitude laws against bigamy keep convicted foreigners from even entering the United States and you want to allow and legalize bigamy from within the United States? Ain’t going to happen in your lifetime here, better that you move to Saudi Arabia, if that’s your desire, no one else here holds your UnAmerican viewpoint.

  557. duane, realistically, who gives a shit what was legal 200yrs ago, its NOT legal today… Do you NOT understand that??
    In 2009 it’s illegal to practice polygamy, bigamy! Simple!!
    Polygamy has been proven whether religously or secularly to be destructive on Children who practice it duane.
    You can give all kinds of analogies, it won’t make any difference bubba, its illegal!

  558. And duane, if you don’t like the laws in Texas where you live, you can move your sorry read end out of Texas. PS, we won’t miss you when you leave.

  559. I hear people talkin’ bad,
    About the way we have to live here in this country,
    Harpin’ on the wars we fight,
    An’ gripin’ ’bout the way things oughta be.
    An’ I don’t mind ’em switchin’ sides,
    An’ standin’ up for things they believe in.
    When they’re runnin’ down my country, man,
    They’re walkin’ on the fightin’ side of me.
    Yeah, walkin’ on the fightin’ side of me.
    Runnin’ down the way of life,
    Our fightin’ men have fought and died to keep.
    If you don’t love it, leave it:
    Let this song I’m singin’ be a warnin’.
    If you’re runnin’ down my country, man,
    You’re walkin’ on the fightin’ side of me.
    ~Merle Haggard

  560. I LOVE Merle Haggard!

  561. He’s one of my favorite Californians;)

    Being the redneck I am, I never expected to have any Californian friends. But I have to say they have become some of my closest friends and are wonderful people.

  562. Heah, Boots be sure to lay a few dozen Texas yellow roses on that boys gravesite for me. Ask if they intend to erect a flagpole so the U.S. and Lone Star can watch over him. They’ll just smile and make you think their listening but the flags won’t fly over their lands of refuge.

  563. Merle, he’s a California native son but he done run off one day to Texas. That lonesome star sure does seem to hold some shine for some folks. I took some training in the Air Force at Lackland Air Force Base and I really loved visiting the Alamo. I have family stories of Kentuckians that went there to fight for the Republic and never came home.

  564. Cajim,

    I will designate a florist in Eldorado when we go in. Anyone who wants me to lay flowers can call them and place an order. I’ll be more than happy to pick everything up the day of and lay anything anyone has sent for Allen.

    I was actually thinking of trying to get at least one stone from someone in every state of the union, to leave for him, too. Just a nice thought…

  565. The anti-polygamy/bigamy laws are here for us to use to protect Texas children from these actions in the future.
    ================================================
    The anit-polygamy/bigamy laws are here for us to use to protect Texas children from disobeying anti-polygamy/bigamy laws in the future? Just get rid of the law. Problem solved.

  566. Ain’t gonna happen Alinusara!

  567. There are two places good ol boys run off to, Tennessee and Texas. Tennessee gave the most to Texas but there were men from Kentucky, New York, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Alabama, Georgia, and indeed England, Scotland, Ireland and Germany and other countries were represented….

    My family from Georgia lost two Mitchells at the Alamo. Travis addressed his desparate plea for help to To the People of Texas & All Americans in the World:

    Fellow citizens & compatriots—I am besieged, by a thousand or more of the Mexicans under Santa Anna—I have sustained a continual Bombardment & cannonade for 24 hours & have not lost a man. The enemy has demanded a surrender at discretion, otherwise, the garrison are to be put to the sword, if the fort is taken—I have answered the demand with a cannon shot, & our flag still waves proudly from the walls. I shall never surrender or retreat. Then, I call on you in the name of Liberty, of patriotism & everything dear to the American character, to come to our aid, with all dispatch—The enemy is receiving reinforcements daily & will no doubt increase to three or four thousand in four or five days. If this call is neglected, I am determined to sustain myself as long as possible & die like a soldier who never forgets what is due to his own honor & that of his country—Victory or Death.

    William Barret Travis

    Lt. Col. comdt

  568. I see a huge lack of confidence in the women of FLDS. Their self-esteem is so low, they never realize they don’t have to “settle for sharing a man”.
    =================================================
    I’ll take the word of someone who’s been there over someone who just read it about it.
    ==========================================================
    Julie M. Balovich, an attorney representing only adult women, said that she had “no concerns about the safety of the FLDS children.”

    “‘I’m a feminist, and I was apprehensive about what I was going to be defending,’ she says. ‘The second I met my clients, I wasn’t worried. They are very independent women who are very assertive and very capable of explaining what they love about their lifestyle.’”

  569. Funny how some people want us to treat the FLDS population as individuals where crimes are concerned but then group all of the women together if one or two tells the rest of the world how happy they are…

  570. Alinusara, No one ever said the women were stupid. Flds has always been motivated by fear! Fear of not being perfect, fear of showing emotions, fear of losing your husband, your children , your home. Fear of being an apostate, fear of not achieving celestial heaven.
    If you are born and raised in FEAR, thats all you know!

  571. HA!!! yup, Flds women are independent alright, Alinusara , go read the dictations!!! The prophet owns everything, including every human body in Flds. Warren TOOK mother’s children from them,,, how did that happen? Did they say Hell NO you aren’t taking my 8yr old or 10yr old anywhere and telling me, Ill never see them again. NO!! The women cried and were upset, but Warren took them anyway!

  572. So FLDS women are strong and independent huh Alinusara? They will give their children to a whack job to marry off and screw, or give to other men to screw, because it helps them to achieve celestial heaven.. See how SICK you are Alinusara!

  573. So FLDS women are strong and independent huh Alinusara?
    ====================================================
    Oh please don’t take my word for it. Ask Julie Balovich who, by the way, happens to be a feminist.

  574. Yes, let’s have Julie Balovich, who met how many of the 7,000 or so reputed FLDS women for herself, speak for them all. Because of course, if one woman says she’s happy and seems bright and independant then they all are, right. Because if one of them commits a crime well, that’s just one guy, but if one of the women is happy, well then they’re ALL happy.

  575. I don’t care if Julie Balovich is a green rabbit, shes full of shit!

  576. WEll what ya know, warren decided to quit eatin and drinkin again… back down with the feedin tube.

  577. Well maybe Warren likes that tube stuff, S&M, whatever.

  578. I didn’t realize that Jeffs attempted to hang himself in 2007 while awaiting trial (as per the Salt Lake Tribune).

    He really is pathetic. Do I feel compassion for him? Yes, but barely. My better self has to wrestle me to the mat, but he is still deserving of our prayers.

    Unfortunately, he needs to be kept alive—just as his daddy was kept on in a state of suspended animation. Although even with that I don’t hold much hope for the crazed inner circle of his elect—they ignored the fact that Rulon died before the Second Coming (although he promised them otherwise) and that the world didn’t end on Jan. 1, 2005 (as Warren predicted).

    They don’t seem to let reality disturb them much.

  579. Hey Rattle…thanks for the B-Day cheers. 🙂

    (keep cool hill-country sistah, keep cool)

    oh and

    Alinusara10 said: They are very independent women who are very assertive and very capable of explaining what they love about their lifestyle.’”

    ermmmm…like presenting their pubescent daughters for sex…er, celestial bonding…to whomever had the most tithes for purchase. Alin — you’re disingenuous, transparent and well frankly loathsome…pthhhh-tui.

  580. ProudTexan-

    Yes Lenora Jeffs Is married to Raymond also. She was married underage, conceived and gave birth to Raymond’s child, James, underage. I believe there’s a dictation posted here where Warren is instructing Raymond to pay Lenoras hospital bill quickly so they wouldn’t draw attention to the underage mother.

    Marrianne Jeffs, Teresa’s older sister, is also married to Raymond and has four children with him. She was legal age when she was married. She was Raymond’s second wife.

    Lenora was married to him I believe after he got Ernie’s retreads (Janet, Mary, Elizabeth). Teresa was Raymond’s 9th and final wife.

    Incidentally Raymond was excommunicated not too long after he and Teresa were married and was still out of the community when the rescue happened.

  581. So where would Teresa and her baby be mmm?

  582. The SLT and DesNews articles on warren’s on/off again force feeding mention his jail house visitors; some of his wives, his children, his mother, Merril Jessop and Wendell Nielsen. No mention of Willie Jessop on the visitor’s log, yet Willie is running around purportedly speaking for and negotiating for the flds corporation, i.e. when he is not under oath. Wendell and Merril make sense since they were warren’s counselors or assistants prior to his arrest and apparently still serve in those functions. It appears that Willie is really self appointed and acting on his own. That being said, no one should take Willie’s pronouncements seriously or they should put him under oath.

  583. Next up on News of the Weird, “Objectum Sexuality” and a church organist who wants to marry a fun fair ride:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5972632/Woman-getting-married-to-fairground-ride.html

    She told the world (via the UK Sun):

    “I use photos of ‘1001’ to help me in private. We could never have sex where he lives because it’s public and it would be indecent.”

    (And talking about masturbation isn’t?)

    No word as to who is going to perform the service at the Knoebels Amusement Park in Elysburg, PA, where her intended lives. Or whether she expects ‘1001’ to be strictly faithful or if she’ll tolerate him having relationships with other riders.

    It’s a relationship that will have its ups and downs, for sure.

  584. Incidentally Raymond was excommunicated not too long after he and Teresa were married and was still out of the community when the rescue happened.
    ___________________________________

    Probably why Teresa didn’t have any children.

  585. chemist – I hear what you’re saying about Willie but perhaps you could address this issue:

    Doesn’t there need to be at least some implicit allowance of Willie’s grandstanding? Don’t folks like Wendell and Merrill have to be onboard with this? Seems that otherwise they’d be strongly encouraging him to sit down and shut up.

  586. So where would Teresa and her baby be mmm?
    _________________________________

    I thought Teresa didn’t have any kids. If Raymond was exed not long after their marriage, there may not have been time.

  587. Marrianne Jeffs, Teresa’s older sister, is also married to Raymond and has four children with him. She was legal age when she was married. She was Raymond’s second wife.
    __________________________________

    Who was his first wife and who is Marrianne’s mom? Is it also Annette?

    Aren’t I just full of questions?

  588. Ron: I am perplexed that warren and his assistants let willie go on in this manner. In the flds for there to be a change of leadership, priesthood keys have to be bestowed on the new leader. I have seen nothing that indicates that has taken place. Members could calesce around a new person, but without a transparent transfer of keys that would probably lead to a split. Loyal warrenites would stick by him, while some other people might go with a new flds leader, others might hook up with the CP group. I would expect that some people might end up not being part of any organized group but would quietly live a polygymous lifestyle on their own. This is like the old Kremlin watching that took place during the cold war.

  589. I’d say the big problem, Chemist, is that as long as Warren is alive there is no mechanism in place for a transfer of the keys under the one man rule plan. I really wonder if that isn’t a lot of what is behind Warren’s starvation attempt. He knows that as long as he’s alive they can’t move on as a unified group. On the other hand, I don’t know that he actually cares that much about the people of the FLDS to die for them, so who knows?

  590. Yeah, I got my underaged girls mixed. Teresa’s mom is Annette. She and her full sister were both with Raymond.

    Actually I’ve never been all that certain but that one of Teresa’s sister’s children might be one of hers (Teresa’s).

  591. Rebeckah: I think you are correct in that. The only mechanism for a transfer is death of the leader.

  592. lol mechanism or no mechanism……..doesn’t matter. People will find or make whatever doctrine or reason to do what they want. There will be a split and thousands of stories of why everyone chose the path they did. Hell i could walk into town and claim the kays were passed to me and make up some story of when and where…..and probably get a following from some people. I’m sure its only a matter of time before slick willy claims hes had dreams or prophecies. The flds people will do w/e is most convienent on a family by family basis……..if anything was to ever happen to warren.

  593. Did anyone notice that Bill the liar already setting it up for Arizona to be responsible if/when Warren dies? LOL, I just can’t figure out why the FLDS think his friendship reflects even remotely well on them.

    Plygkid, yes I agree, the individuals within the FLDS will undoubtedly splinter and a least two and possibly more “Prophets” will arise from this. That’ll make the UEP mess even more messy too. lol

  594. plygkid: I agree with your view of the situation. It is quite consistent with the history of the short creek polygamists so far. Splinter groups breaking off and doing their own thing, some families just doing what they want. Consider that the AUB,the CP group and the flds all claim the same heritage and early leaders. There are probably some other small groups that I am not aware of that could be included in that list.

  595. lol just saying wether there is a mechanism in place or not the result will be exactly the same. I must have heard thousands of peoples personal testamonies (just them talking to me, not a public testamony) in my time there. All of them with a lil bit in common but as a whole they all live totally different religions lol. Thats why when something extreem happens they all just kinda tree out. Most of who goes where depends alot on friendships……not beliefs.

  596. correction on last post…..i meant hundreds not thousands

  597. Actually it’s a good thing Arizona is keeping Warren alive. If I remember right if Texas rules in favor for the admissibility of the evidence gathered during the raid of the YFZ ranch then Arizona will conduct it’s own suppression hearing.

  598. the flds problem is like the mythical creature “hydra” cut off one head 3 grow in its place. If warren dies……there will be more extreem groups in a matter of years.

  599. “there will be more extreem groups in a matter of years.”

    Do you really think so? I was kind of hoping the “extreme” group would be smaller and only one at that, and that most would start becoming more moderate in their beliefs. I figure you know the general thinking in the FLDS better than I ever could, though, so I’ll give your view more weight than my “hopes”. 😉

  600. lol how do you think this group got so extreem? while most the other groups are a lil more laid back

  601. Plygkid good to read your posts again, Welcome. I remember you once thought that Warren would topple if more convictions followed. Do you still see the Jessop/Nielsen group breaking off with Short Creekers? Seems the pressures are starting to show breaks in the church make up. Now that Warren’s dictations reveal that he declared Short Creek rejected of God and that the congregation should become a scattered people, it would suggest that a break up was prophesied? Additional lands of refuge are now known to be in Mancos, Colorado and Pringle, South Dakota so physically they are fairly separated already. Given the pending trial up in Bountiful, Canada the ties that hold the FLDS Church seem to be very strained.

  602. GFNY, Ms. Wolfe, soon to be “Mrs. Weber,” is just nuts — or maybe nuts and bolts!

    I can’t imagine who’d perform the marriage ceremony — surely it would be non-consensual if the amusement ride can’t give consent?

    I think instead of getting married they should just live in sin.

  603. Seriously, Rattle, would you ride an amusement park ride that was married to someone else?

    But, hey, it’s her private life and if she wants to be married to ‘1001’, who are we to judge her?

  604. The ride can’t legally give consent but neither can a 14-year-old girl in the United States. So what’s the difference?

  605. I dont know who will actually claim to be the prophet. I do know there will be mutliple break offs. There will be at least 1 group that becomes even more extreem…..they will concider themselves “in hiding” in another 50 years…..history will repeat itself and our grandchildren will be debating the same stuff we are. I think you are right and we are seeing it happen as we speak. We will most likely not know who proclaimed to be the prophet for many years…..nobody is going to publicly announce that they are now the leader. Most likely a person will relocate with thier small group and pretty much fly under the radar for a long time. Not untill theres another big fiasco will we know who.

  606. Prezackly, GFNY.

    I wonder if we can talk we willy into trading in his mentally-deficient wives for a roller coaster.

  607. PK, has anyone approached you about rejoining? It would be a necessary first step to asserting your own prophet-hood. Which I think is a good idea as long as you insist that Berry Knoll be sold to me. I will build an amusement park and the rides will be polygamous, willing to marry anyone.

    Remember, your visions must be written down while you sleep by your faithful amanuensis, Thing… but in my opinion, Thing is easily swayed.

  608. Willie. Smoke and mirrors. A lying SOS. A loudmouth agitpropaganda distraction for the masses. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain …

  609. I’m dying here.

  610. PK,
    but the issue is not really who is the “prophet” but who gets control of the remaining resources, right? So somebody is sure to pop up claiming to be the prophet

  611. lol gfny, no they havnt.and i would need to be to go in there and claim the priesthood for myself. With the already intact fairytale mentality i could just get david copperfield to help me make something dissapear and they would come runnin.

    about my visions……dont think you wanting me writting those down…..they almost always involve a midget a llama and a 3 headed dog named pogo.

    One splinter group will focus on resources. That one will not be the extreem group. The extreem group will be the group we know least about. We wont know it exist for a long time most likely.

  612. PlygKid I read that Lyle Jeffs is bishop in Hildale and Bishop Willie E. (Timpson) Jessop is co-counselor to the bishop in Mancos, CO. Both Mancos and Pringle, SD seem to be off the radar right now, so any covert leader/group would be away from exposure at either enclave.

    Given, multiple convictions in Texas I don’t see how the YFZ Ranch continues as the scene of serial felonies and avoids the branding as a hideout for fugitives or safehaven.

  613. http://www.nwanews.com/adg/2009/aug/04/2-alamo-followers-released-jail-20090804/?adg/news

    Two members of the Tony Alamo Christian Ministries were released from jail Monday after spending more than seven months behind bars for refusing to reveal the whereabouts of their children.
    =================================================
    This is interesting. I’ll have to look it up.

  614. I’m wondering if we could trade Wee Willie for one of the sideshow attractions, maybe Koo-Koo, the Bird Girl.

    Whoops, politically incorrect. Forget I said that.

  615. i dont think they will seek refuge in any known enclave. I think they will find some desolate town and start from scratch.

  616. PK, it’s days like this that I miss Steven. And where’s Stamp? It’s really hard to get this crowd down to my level sometimes.

  617. Maybe across the border PK?

  618. do you think the most extreme will come from the group in texas?

  619. bear in mind this is just speculation….i may be way off base. Its just the feeling I get from my time spent there.

  620. Maybe across the border. And im pretty sure the most extreem will come out of texas since thats where all the “good” people are.

  621. Hey Kid–I know you told us–but, I forgot–How long have you been “gone” from flds???

  622. ProudTexan that’s a good speculative question, given that all the “Dirty Dozen” resided on the YFZ Raunch. Bishop F. Merril Jessop is definitely the resources type, as is Wendell Nielson, so my take is that the YFZ Ranch remains as a resources hub and subject to future raids and shake-downs as needed.
    YFZ Raunch has filed for tax exempt status for the Temple and Bishop’s residence, so that would begin to establish a non-profit status for the ranch, as well.

  623. Of course the gentiles will be responsible for not accepting the prophet they never knew about, yet they will have somehow been persecuting him all along.

    As far as a group dying out over time; that will never happen because all it takes is two faithful children out of the entire family to keep the group alive.

  624. Cement, that’s what frightens me most.

  625. Cement do you see any trends within the FLDS Church that are obvious fault lines. I would think that the uninformed FLDS Church tithers that found out about Warren’s revelation by hearsay and that they were not included in the templebuilders would harbor some coolness toward Warren and the leadership. Willie, F. Merril and Wendell seem to all have taken up a residence at the YFZ Raunch.
    Do you sense a break up is evolving?

  626. Personally, I’m much more frightened for my Muslim American sisters. If no one will step up to enforce the law against polygamy, they will be the ones who suffer most for it. And since no one will enforce the law for white followers of Joseph Smith, what exactly makes us think LE will give two hoots about people following Sharia here, instead of our laws?

    Today you can practice polygamy and tomorrow you can beat your wife with a stick, as long as it is no bigger round than your thumb of course. Or maybe they could sentence women to being lashed for wearing pants?

    Hey, as long as we’re giving everyone total freedom of “religion” and all…

  627. Its been at least 4 years jobo

  628. I may live in Colorado City, but I have no idea what goes on anymore; all my information comes from here, now. Someone mentioned a few posts ago about Willie Jessop Timpson running the Mancos area, but I though the rumor going around was he had been booted. Or has the new prophet reinstated him? I just don’t know.

    As far as a split, look at mormonfundamentalism.com. That labyrinth at the botton will continue to fissure. CP will probably split someday; but I don’t know enough about them to know if any fault lines are developing. Splits need to happen until every family becomes its own relgious group.

  629. No One should expect that cults similar to the flds will cease to exist when warren dies or a splintering takes place. Thomas Ford wrote that he thought the assassination of Joseph and Hyrum Smith would cause the Mormons to die out as an organized group. I fear that plygkid is correct in that one or more of the splinter groups will be more extreme and fanatical than the warrenites. I simply want the flds and other such groups to obey the laws that all US citizens are subject to. Also, that if they do not obey the laws they will be prosecuted on an individual basis for their ACTIONS, not their beliefs.

  630. “lol gfny, no they havnt.and i would need to be to go in there and claim the priesthood for myself.”

    No, PK, because the Angel Moroni himself visited me last night and told me to tell you Joseph Smith would be dropping by your bedroom any night now to reinstate you into the priesthood and confirm your Prophethood and give you the keys to the kingdome and a purple porshe (although you might have to hotwire the porshe if the keys don’t actually manifest properly). Go forward young Prophet and proclaim the truth. (Warm beer and cold pizza for everyone!)

  631. “Put Willie under oath”

    LOL – and see a barking dog shut up? All judges not only need to require this but also require proof of their position when in court.

    At this time the only FLDS person of position is a dying man in a prison cell, who keeps taking stabs at suicide.

    He is afraid of rooming with that Pesky Tony Alamo guy, and being forced to listen to his garbage!

  632. It helps to remember that history is replete with cults that are now defunct, including the Oneida colony, the Millerites, the Mennonite polygamists, the Pythians, etc., etc. ad nauseum.

    It helps when law enforcement cracks down on their illegal practices, but in the end the truth does prevail, even if it takes hundreds of years.

    Cement, it is so sad that you need to come here for community news.

    Later, I’m thinking of actually getting some work done.

  633. Yes it has been seen often before when “Religions go bad” they are disbanded. Look at Tony Alamo, David Koresh, Jim Jones, Jim and Tammy Baker, etc.

    They break the law, and in doing so lose all they have pooled on this earth. Which shouldnt mean too much, since they are looking for beachfront Real Estate in Heaven anyway.

    Warren wants to go surfing, The law says he has to stay locked up in the hot car.

  634. FLDS Negotiation tactics:

    “Negotiate with me and give me what I want, or I wont eat”

    —- 15 minutes ago —- and a missed meal of mac and cheese —

    Arizona jail continuing to force-feed Jeffs

    Associated Press – August 5, 2009 3:54 PM ET

    SALT LAKE CITY (AP) – Polygamous church leader Warren Jeffs is continuing to refuse solid foods and remains on a feeding tube.

    Mohave County sheriff’s spokeswoman Trish Carter says Jeffs ate a sandwich and an orange around 6 a.m. Wednesday, but then refused further nourishment.

    Jail officials began force-feeding Jeffs, 53, on Friday after a period of fasting deteriorated his health so much that a doctor feared the church leader might die. The tube was removed Sunday, when it appeared Jeffs would eat, and reinserted Monday after he again skipped meals.

    Head of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Jeffs is in the Kingman jail awaiting trials on criminal charges related to alleged underage marriages of sect girls.

    http://www.kswt.com/Global/story.asp?S=10853736&nav=menu613_2_6

  635. Well, he may actually manage to die. He’s workin’ at it hard enough.

  636. Well, here’s a cult that has been disbanded but will now have a disciple wandering about after 34 years in the pen:

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/08/05/squeaky.fromme.release/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

  637. Was that a midget, a dog and a 3-headed llama … ?

  638. a midget a llama and a 3 headed dog named “Pogo”

  639. squeaky fromme out in the world is a scary thought for me, especially if she is still hung up on charles manson

  640. ya know pogo, cerberus’s distant cousin. lol

  641. rofl, PK

  642. cerberus is the gaurdian of the underworld……..pogo is gaurdian of the cookie jar.

  643. I thought Pogo was the guardian of the Okeefenokie Swamp.

  644. LOL, Rebeckah, wonder how many will remember Walt Kelly.

  645. Ah yes, pogo; I will always remeber his famous line: “We have met the enemy and he is us.”

  646. I loved Pogo. Such a charming little possum. 😉

  647. This week I am offering a special on scripting prophetic dreams at $50 per, or $75 if I really have to abandon such principles as I have. These prophecies are guaranteed to pass the FLDS credulity test, although the purchaser has to do his part and read them in a monotone in his dictations.

    I can easily throw in a midget, a llama and a three-headed dog named Pogo. I’ll even add a marriage to an underage rollercoaster if you want.

  648. You nut.

    Is it the water?

  649. I started my day by reading about a woman who wants to marry an amusement park ride. In comparison, my scheme seems downright sane.

  650. I really like your goal of directing the FLDS males energy towards underage amusement park rides, Greetings. Plenty of energy and I’m sure they’re shiny enough to keep the attention of even the oldest codger. Plus, unlike the girls, they can’t sue you for rape when their brains develop and they realize what you’ve done to them.

  651. Rebeckah, it’s a totally crackpot day.

    The church organist wanting to marry an amusement park ride. Squeaky Fromme being released from prison.

    And then the guy on TBM’s blog who argued that the FLDS really intended to run an exotic game farm in Texas, but they discovered there were no animals present so they decided to build their compound instead.

    My brain hurts.

  652. “That guy” was our friendly Alinusura troll. 😉

    Yeah, my head hurts too. Of course, that might have something to do with the fact that it’s hotter by far than I like and I’m packing because we have to be out by Sept 1st. And the house hunting hasn’t gone well… One real prize of a guy kept us dangling for over a month so he could make life harder on his soon to be ex-wife — of course the fact that he was making life harder for us didn’t register in his childish little mind.

  653. “Polygamous leader is urinating, still is force-fed nutrients.”

    Oops, sorry. I read that Trib headline wrong.

    So he’s being fed through a nasogastric tube, and he likes to follow up a hearty breakfast with a nice chaser of tube slurry. I’m sure the appeal of fasting will wear off in a hurry under that regimen.

    A nice old-fashioned word for force-feeding is “gavage” from the French “gaver” (to stuff) and the Middle French “gave” (gullet). Aren’t you glad to know that?

    Do you suppose they ask him politely if he will drink his Ensure and when he refuses they chase him to catch him?

  654. I loathe moving more than anything, so you have my deepest sympathy, Rebeckah.

  655. Oh dear, Rebeckah, you really should have called me. I’m a moving friend’s dream. I come with a truck, grew up in the fine art and antiques business [fancy wording for furniture movers] and have moved myself, starting early as an Army brat, a total of over 20 times.

    I basically come in, push you all out of the way and get it done by myself, lol.

    Then give me my pizza;)

  656. I loathe moving too. My last two moves have both ended up with landlords deciding to sell the house out from under me. I’m so glad the kids are buying now, but it’s so aggravating dealing with delusional (or vengeful) sellers!

    Yes, apparently Warren started to eat, so the removed a tube, and then he stopped again. At the point where he stops urinating, however, they don’t have much of a choice but medical intervention. It’s okay, though, Mudpucky is already starting screeching about Arizona being guilty of Warren’s death should it happen. Because instead of rushing Warren to another hospital, they simply stuck a tube in him and gave him fluids and nutrients. (How DARE they a) force him to be properly nourished, (when it is clearly his religious right to starve himself to death), b) do so under the supervision of a medical doctor in the prison as opposed to the hospital and c) get a court order (as required, I imagine) before starting an invasive intervention against his wishes?) The murderous cads!

  657. Boots, I have 20 years worth of clutter that I must inspect each and every piece of to determine whether or not it is valuable before packing or throwing away, otherwise I’d call you in a heartbeat. Our furniture is no big deal but our clutter would probably send you screaming into the night. Then who would put flowers on young Allen’s grave?

    BTW, I wanted to say that if you let me know who the florist is I’d like to provide some flowers for Warren’s wife Barbara. I believe she is buried on the the ranch too and that poor woman deserves a little rememberance too. Warren’s words about what he did to her broke my heart for her AND her children.

  658. LOL!

    The only thing I would change is, he’s not in a prison. he’s in the Mohave County Jail in Kingman, Arizona.

    The folks in Short Creek may well have figured it all out. That’s who Mohave County will be answering to, not Warren.

    After all, they aren’t involved in business deals with Warren but they are definitely still in business with local FLDS owned companies.

    Whooieee….I wonder who Warren’s concubines visit while they are up there in Mohave County to visit him in Kingman? Do they still get up to Short Creek much, too?

  659. You got it. I will post the info when the time comes. I’m sorry for Barbara’s life. I’m even more sorry that she grew up in a part of the country where laws designed to protect her from this sort of thing were completely ignored, for generations. That’s exactly how this happened to her.

    When I lay them for you I will promise her Texas will do better.

  660. Boots, give me ’til closing on about the 18th on my ‘new’ place then you can move me then move Rebeka into my house here which will be up for sale … I guess I’m joking, you do not want to get involve with a crazy woman like me.

  661. Rebekah this place is a packrat’s dream. Or nightmare, as I’ve recently come to see it.

  662. Cement, Will Timpson was booted in 2007 and has moved on to join his non-FLDS extended family in Idaho.

  663. I read the letter/filing by Amy Hennington and the only thing she got right was the name of the child. She called him Allen Rohobok instead of continuing to pretend that he was Isaac Jeffs’ kid. With as many times as his momma was reassigned, the poor kid probably had no clue who his father was.

  664. I’m even more sorry that she grew up in a part of the country where laws designed to protect her from this sort of thing were completely ignored

    Unfortunately, no matter how many laws you pass, you can’t protect people from being stupid. I understand and greatly appreciate you folks out to save the world. However, in the end, I believe you’ll fail because of the stupid quotient.

  665. “However, in the end, I believe you’ll fail because of the stupid quotient.”

    I believe you’re right, Ron, but I gotta try! Even if it only effects one person, then that’s one person who might do better than they were before. Besides, I get obsessions. 😉

  666. Ron way too cynical for my belief system. How do you account for Flora Jessop, Carolyn Jessop, Elissa Wall and Becky Wall, Lenore Holm, Wendell Musser, Jason Williams, ‘Lost Boys’ and Ross Chatwin. Your stupid quotient is not applicable in their cases. They definitely came to a crossroad and left the only world they had known and reasoned that the change was vital for each of them. Human spirit, inner strengths, courageous hearts dwell in the least expected persons and mankind is extremely resilient when faced with adversity, hopeless or impossible odds. It feeds my belief in faith, hope and charity that no problem faced in this life is preordained or unchangeable. Ron I can’t save the world but I plan to tell the Almighty what I tried to do during the time I was given here.

  667. Hey there Ron,

    …gotta chime in on the ‘stupid quotient’…(btw, I thank you for your many secular comments, it’s reassuring to see a like mind).. no offense to my faithful friends 🙂

    …on the quotient — my Mom taught Eng. Lit. for over 40 years — inner city. She was not “leaving any child behind’ LONG before it became a catchphrase.

    Among the many hundreds of *Mom-isms* is:

    “You can’t force freedom of thought on others, but you can present enough facts to cause attention to options.”

    Mom was all about education giving OPTIONS.

    So Ron, while there IS a whole lotta stupid out there, if some folks keep pounding away at delivering FACTS….perhaps…perhaps~~…some

    will realize they have options.

    Props to Mom.

  668. New article on the UEP in the SLT.

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13002748

  669. Please go to Open Discussion #10

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