Open Discussion 8

Continued from Open Discussion 7

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on July 17, 2009.

493 Responses to “Open Discussion 8”

  1. Smart Judge!! Knows her law, and granted the stay under “certain conditions”, but in the normal arrogance of FLDS, they SCREWED it up.

  2. “when are these people going to realize they have to follow the law?”

    Probably not until the AG stops helping them flout it, DD1.

  3. Yeah, I was posting to the Houston Chronical site about protest over the sale of the cows, when “JulieWorth: posted something about how unfair Wisan was, and how they should take this to Federal court…LMELAO!

    Shurtleff is in trouble only because THE EYES OF TEXAS ARE UPON HIM…I guarantee you, if it weren’t for the work y’all have all done, he would be coming up smelling like the proverbial rose in Utah.

    Thank you FLDS Texas!

  4. I agree, Texas, backed by texasflds, (and AAAP too1) have helped vet out these crimes and made UT -AZ look sadly like child molester protecters.

    PROVED them to be molester protecters. Even Marks latest claims of “NO MORE CHILD MARRIAGE” is a way for him to protect him.

    Why doesnt he prove up and say “WE will go back to the last 20 years and prosecute molesters, and any dare do this going forward, expect PRISON”

    THAT would show the world something.

    As it is, its like saying “There hasnt been a drug problem and there never will be”

    LMAO Mark, you are a TOOL!

  5. Stamp,

    For the life of me, since Utah’s own state constitution says, polygamy and “plural marriages” are “forever prohibited”, I cannot understand how he gets away with openly supporting the practice, including stating openly on his website that he has no intention of ever prosecuting the crime!

    He’s a lawyer and the state’s TOP lawyer at that, right? Isn’t he an “officer of the court”? How does he get away with promoting the continual commission of a felony by tens of thousands of people, against his state’s own constitution?

    How does he still have a license to practice law?

    Have I mentioned I don’t understand this?

  6. Can one of you folks who specialize in the practice of law answer any of these questions for me?

  7. I dont understand it either, beyond the fact it makes LDS inc. look bad when they arrest fundies.

    Every time they do they need to post a disclaimer they “ARE NOT MORMONS LIKE US” but then oops it looks like the fundies are the original mormons and the LDS is the ones who changed!

    The internet (mainstream for less than 15 short years)

    IS REALLY GOING TO PEEL THE ONION!!!

  8. From Wiki:

    The practice of informal polygamy among fundamentalist groups presents interesting legal issues. It has been considered difficult to prosecute polygamists for bigamy, in large part because they are rarely formally married under state laws. Without evidence that suspected offenders have multiple formal or common-law marriages, these groups are merely subject to the laws against adultery or unlawful cohabitation — laws which are not commonly enforced because they also criminalize other behavior that is otherwise socially sanctioned.

  9. I agree the onion is being peeled, for sure.

    I guess what I’m really trying to understand is how Utah as a state has gotten away with this.

    More than one former member of the FLDS has told me that there was a secret meeting between the prophet of the LDS church and some practicing polygamist, at the time the Utah Constitution was written, swearing a binding oath that “There would never be a single generation where “the principle” was not lived”.

    One has to give “rumors” like that the grain of salt they deserve, however, considering the obvious protection provided by the mainstream LDS church to polygamist; the refusal to prosecute the crime, providing public assistance to practitioners of the crime, refusal to help wome or children fleeing the crime, post baptism of excommunicated members who have committed the crime, the appointment of a “Polygamy Director” in the LDS church, etc. It makes one think, ‘Is it just a “rumor”, or is this how things really are? Did the citizens of the Utah territories intentionally lie to congress and the rest of the country, in order to win their statehood?

    From where I sit it sure as heck LOOKS that way.

  10. Alinusara,

    Fortunately that’s not the case here in Texas. because of our common laws, it is very easy to prove Bigamy.

    A marriage in Texas is easy. You do not need to apply for any license or even have a ceremony. All you have to do is purport to be married to someone, and you ARE.

    I think the bishops list is all we need to prove both males and females on that ranch were purporting to be “married” in the state of Texas. There you go.

    MASS BIGAMY has been committed here in Texas.

  11. Alinusara,

    Fortunately that’s not the case here in Texas. because of our common laws, it is very easy to prove Bigamy.

    A marriage in Texas is easy. You do not need to apply for any license or even have a ceremony. All you have to do is purport to be married to someone, and you ARE.
    ========================================================
    How does that work on insurance claims?

  12. I don’t know, Ali. Last time I checked Texas isn’t running the insurance industry.

    I do know when I was married to an insurance executive for 13 years, I never had to show my marriage license to anyone to be insured under his coverage.

  13. How does that work on insurance claims?

    Alinusara10 said this on July 18, 2009 at 10:37 AM

    **********

    Why you have a claim to file? What does insurance claims have to do with the crime of polygamy/bigamy? Don’t think you can take a policy out to insure against litagation of any crimes you commit. Even malpractice insurance does not pay in the event of a commission of a crime.

  14. Besides Alinusara, The LE have marriage licenses of who married whom, they also have underage girls married to MEN who have children and multiple other wives.

  15. No LadySadie I wasn’t on the attack. I was simply asking a legitimate question. If by purporting to be married means you are married are your boyfriend or girlfriend, whatever the case may be, eligible for benefits due to injury or illness?

  16. Good point LadySadie, I don’t know of any insurance policy that will pay a claim if a crime committed by the insured is proven.

    So yeah, Ali, what was the point or intention of that question exactly?

  17. So yeah, Ali, what was the point or intention of that question exactly?
    ====================================================
    I thought it was obvious. I was curious how insurance claims work if you purport to be married. I’m curious. Does social security benefits work the same way?

  18. Ali, that is the point. If you purport to be “married” here in Texas, you are no longer “Boyfriend and girlfriend” you are married.

    Examples of how easy it is to be married in Texas: Check into a hotel for one night and purport you are checking in as “Mr. & Mrs.”

    POOF! You are MARRIED. If a man is already married, and checks in with his lover or mistress, he is now guilty of Bigamy. The chance of him being caught? Low. But if he IS? His wife is going to have his balls for lunch.

    Same goes for a married woman, just to be fair!

  19. I should amend that to say if he checks into a hotel with the lover or mistress and claims she is his wife.

  20. Ali-oop, if you are asking can a common law couple be covered on one health insurance policy, file joint taxes, get life insurance, etc for each other, the answer is YES.

    Here is a good site to answer all those questions for you.

    http://texfamlaw.blogspot.com/2009/04/austin-divorce-lawyer-tips-about-common.html

  21. Thanks LS. According to the cite you are advised to get a divorce when you separate from a common law marriage. That’s unique.

  22. “That’s unique.”

    It is a recommended protection for people who do not want to take the chance of later being charged and convicted of Bigamy here in Texas.

    If I have lived common law marriage with a man for 10 years, and we simply separate and go our own ways, later if I decide to marry another man in a cceremony, with a license, my common law husband could file Bigamy charges against me if I have not obtained a legal divorce, because I was legally married to him.

  23. “That’s unique.” ???

    In states that recognize common law marriage, it is a legal marriage, as with all legal marriages you need a legal divorce to legally end the marriage. Nothing unique about divorce.

  24. That is also another reason [on top of my own moral code] I have never lived with anyone.
    Live with a man for 6 months here and you are considered married under Texas common law.
    I’m sure there are many couples who have done this who later ended their relationship amicably, moving out and never worrying that the other one will later accuse them of Bigamy. But legally here they COULD.

  25. So Ali, in light of this information, do you see how easy Bigamy is to prove here in Texas, and how the FLDS could be in some serious trouble here?

  26. Alinusara,

    Insurance law varies by state. In most states, the legal next of kin is clearly defined by law. In some states, you could leave benefits to your cat and not leave your spouse a dime and in others you cannot bypass your legal spouse. But legal is an important word; I’m sure if two women presented themselves as a wife, the insurance company would not pay more than one. They are funny that way about money.

    PS (wanna bet 99% of all mormon polygamists do not have life insurance policies?)

  27. The Social Security Administration does not recognize common law marriages. If you want to qualify for spousal SSA benefits, it has to be a legal marriage with a marriage license.

  28. Boots, what does the “Polygamy Director” in the LDS church do?

  29. “I thought it was obvious. I was curious how insurance claims work if you purport to be married. I’m curious. Does social security benefits work the same way?”

    I can only conclude that you are deliberately trying to muddy the waters by mixing the rules/regulations and/or laws of private corporations and the Federal Government with the laws of the State of Texas. It’s rather pointless on your part. Whether you like them or not, the laws in Texas are the laws in Texas. Certainly no one HAS to move to Texas and break their laws — not even if God tells them to. They have the same “free will choice” of any 14 year old bride in the FLDS to say “no”. (Or, they can break the law and live with the consequences.)

  30. Anonymous 1:11, as far as I know, no knows except possibly the leadership of the LDS church. They apparently make no effort to help victims of polygamy, however, which is rather sad considering their church doctrine is responsible for so much of the polygamy in Utah, Arizona, Nevada and Idaho. (And moving in on Texas…)

  31. Anonymous 1:11, for things like the Social Security Administration, the couple can walk into any clerk of court and get a certificate of marriage without all the hoopla of a license and ceremony.

  32. Yes they can Ladysadie, but they still have to fill out the forms, which state they are NOT married to anyone else, the person for which they want the marriage certificate is over 18 and isn’t blood relataed to them, or they are refused the marriage certificate in Texas.

    Social Security Administration has tightened up on giving anything. My husband’s wallet was stolen last year, had his social security card, driver’s license in it.
    He went to DPS for new driver’s license, but had to show his social secuirty card, even though he KNEW the number. They refused him , told him to get a new social security card, or he could NOT get a new driver’s license. He went to Social Security and they wanted to see his driver’s license,,, grrrrrr
    Of course he didn’t have it, was stolen.
    He had to bring a copy of his BIRTH certifcate, BEFORE they would allow him to fill out forms for a NEW duplicate social security number.

  33. I didn’t mean to imply that there had to be a big wedding ceremony, but SSA insists that the couple be legally married with documenting paperwork – which I call a marriage license.

  34. NEW duplicate social security number.

    deputydog1 said this on July 18, 2009 at 3:00 PM

    NEW + DUPLICATE???? Sounds like the government!

  35. We run into this vicious cycle often trying to help victims of polygamy get needed services.

    They can’t get the services because they don’t have a driver’s license, birth certificate or Social Security card to prove who they are. They can’t get the driver’s license because they don’t have a Social Security card or a birth certificate. They can’t get the Social Security card because they don’t have a driver’s license or a birth certificate. They can’t get the birth certificate because they don’t have a driver’s license or Social Security card.

    It drives me NUTS!

  36. lol , well it was the same social security number, just a new card, lol

  37. How does Naomi Carlisie still collect SS from a deceased son who died at the age of 7?

  38. I don’t know anonymous, unless she NEVER filed a death certificate, which is against the law to claim social security after a person is dead.

  39. If you know Naomi is getting money from a dead child’s social security number, TURN HER IN!!!

  40. FYI –

    From the social security handbook:

    1717.1 How do you prove a common-law marriage?

    Evidence to prove a common-law marriage in the States that recognize such marriages must include:

    1.

    If the husband and wife are living, a statement from each and a statement from a blood relative of each;
    2.

    If either the husband or wife is dead, a statement from the surviving widow or widower and statements from two blood relatives of the decedent; or
    3.

    If both a husband and wife are dead, a statement from a blood relative of the husband and from a blood relative of the wife.

    1717.2 How should the statements be made?

    The statements of the husband, wife, and relatives must be made on special forms, Statement Regarding Marriage or Statement of Marital Relationship, available at any Social Security office or on the Social Security Administration’s website. You must fully answer all items on the forms and in your own words. Also, submit evidence that confirms that you had a common-law marriage, such as mortgage/rent receipts, bank records, insurance policies, etc.
    1717.3 What if you cannot get statements from your relatives?

    If you adequately explain why you cannot obtain the required statements from relatives, you may submit statements from other persons who know the facts. Provide any other investigative evidence relating to your case.

  41. FYI

    Common law or “Informal Marriage” in Texas:

    ec. 2.401. PROOF OF INFORMAL MARRIAGE. (a) In a judicial, administrative, or other proceeding, the marriage of a man and woman may be proved by evidence that:

    (1) a declaration of their marriage has been signed as provided by this subchapter; or

    (2) the man and woman agreed to be married and after the agreement they lived together in this state as husband and wife and there represented to others that they were married.

    So, unless you file a declaration of informal marriage the standard to be common law married is:

    1. Present agreement to be married:
    2. Cohabitation as husband and wife; and
    3. Holding yourself out as being married

    The hard part to prove in court is #1 since to a large extent it must be inferred if one spouse claims no present agreement.

  42. I think if I lived in Utah, I might gather up a few like-minded individuals and see a lawyer about suing to compel the Attorney General to enforce the law.

    Utah’s Mormon population has been declining as a percentage of population for the past 20 years; Non-Mormons are now about 40% of the state’s population and will reach parity with Mormons around 2030. How will that affect the state’s tolerant attitude toward polygamy?

  43. FYI –

    From the social security handbook:

    1717.1 How do you prove a common-law marriage?

    Ron in Houston said this on July 18, 2009 at 3:54 PM

    Too bad Ron didn’t tell me this 2 years ago! The lady at the SSA said they would NOT honor a common law relationship and we would NOT be able to get spousal benefits unless we were legally MARRIED with documentation of marriage. I explained to her that we lived in a common law state, but she said that did NOT matter. We just went ahead and finally got married! I am NOT going to tell my spouse what Ron said because it was ONLY because of the SSA that we finally tied the knot. We were both perfectly happy living in sin – LOL.

  44. Im glad your happy Anonymous, but honestly, Ive always felt like if you just live together, and not marry, makes it to easy to just get up and walk away. If you trully love each other, you should be willing to make a personal, legal committment and get married 🙂

  45. Anonymous 5:33, there are incompetent beaurocrats everywhere you go. I learned some time ago that I had to make people making claims such as that worker show me their rules in writing. Oddly enough, they almost always had to back right down.

    (Most memorably, my son and I were homeless because I was going through a severe bout of depression. A TANF worker tried to end my case, saying we didn’t have a home to qualify as a household. I marched down there, demanded that they show me EXACTLY where it said they could do that. Turns out, in black and white it said they couldn’t. A minor triumph, but I still savor it.)

  46. #

    Im glad your happy Anonymous, but honestly, Ive always felt like if you just live together, and not marry, makes it to easy to just get up and walk away. If you trully love each other, you should be willing to make a personal, legal committment and get married 🙂

    deputydog1 said this on July 18, 2009 at 5:37 PM

    Thats really sweet, deputy, but we always felt just the opposite. We felt like we stayed together because we truly love each other, not because a piece of paper says we have to, or should.

  47. And we’ve been together 24 years now, just married the last 2 of them. I’d call that a personal commitment by 2 loving people.

  48. Not to quibble, Anonymous, but you WERE married, because you lived in a common-law state. So whether or not you stood in front of a judge to formalize your legal obligations and rights, you had those obligations and rights.

    Marriage is NOT a religious contract in the US, although it sometimes takes place simultaneously with a religious commitment. It’s a civil contract between two people, which influences a fantastic array of other legal relationships. According to the GAO there are 1,138 federal statutory provisions classified to the United States Code in which
    marital status is a factor in determining or receiving benefits, rights, and privileges.

    http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04353r.pdf

    So you can either be married or you can try to duplicate the protection of marriage in those other circumstances. A marriage license is around $50; it’s a no-brainer.

  49. Well Im glad to hear that anonymous, and Yea!! 24yrs is definitely a long time… Im just old fashioned I guess, lol

  50. I skipped a quarter mile to answer. If you’re married and have a health insurance family plan then you list the family members’ names, same goes for Social Security/Medicare as well and Tricare and other military medical plans. And yes a claim may require you to produce marriage documents.

    That’s how the concubines and their children lose out.

  51. I think if I lived in Utah, I might gather up a few like-minded individuals and see a lawyer about suing to compel the Attorney General to enforce the law.

    I know where you’re going with this; however, the law has this concept called “prosecutorial discretion.” The way to deal with this is probably only at the ballot box.

  52. Anon – I suppose you can call it karma or that the Lord works in mysterious ways. Yes, you ran into a no-nothing idiot bureaucrat; however, apparently it things worked out in the end.

    Although, I will say that not all lawyers are slime sucking sleaze balls. Sometimes spending the money for a little advice can save a large headache.

  53. Thanks, Ron. That certainly ruins my idea.

  54. Here’s the statement. It was very windy. If I listen in some parts, I have a hard time but can still understand myself. If anyone else isn’t so lucky and wants me to fill in the gaps, I’d be happy to.

    TripleAP@gmail.com

  55. “I should amend that to say if he checks into a hotel with the lover or mistress and claims she is his wife”

    Boots, its not if she claims, she can claim all she wants. It’s if the married party claims the lover as their spouse that there’s trouble.

  56. Makes perfect sense, thanks, although it seems unfair if both of them do it, she can’t be prosecuted for trying to participate in Bigamy, too.

  57. I agree ron not all lawyers are slime balls, but many are. You don’t really think ALL the lawyers hired by FLDS are really looking out for them do you?

    They should of known, before they ever filed the motion to intervene, legally what the outcome would be. They see Dollar signs, BIG dollar signs.
    For instance in the latest story in the trib, about the denial of the motion, Rodney Parker made this comment:

    The trust “is going to take our money and we don’t have a right complain about it? There is something wrong with that,” Parker said.

    “OUR MONEY”? Rodney Parker has a stake in UEPtrust?

  58. The link to my YFZ cemetery statement is up on the AAAP’s blog, for anyone who is interested.

    It is definitely just a link. The only way I could even get it to let me paste it in was to put it right in the posts title. Sorry for all who have to copy and paste.

    I still can’t sing or dance but I can copy and paste.

  59. Its been a year since I was out on that road. They definetly added HUGE gates Boots.. When we went , there was just a regulare short metal gate at the front, then futher down the road another gate. And you didn’t tarry to long at the first gate, cause you would see ATV’S coming toward the gate. Good report by the way.

  60. Thanks darlin’, I wasn’t real sure how much I liked it but I’m a broadcaster, so I finally had to look at it like, okay it’s just a statement, not a live report into studio B..never mind you look like ca ca, lol.

    Oh, and in case anyone wonders about my accent, yes, I can drop it like a hot potato for regular reporting jobs. One news director, in utter amazement asked me how I did it. I asked him if he had ever heard a yankee making fun of a southerner’s accent by mimicking it, and he said ‘yes’. Then I said, “What exactly makes you think we can’t make fun of you, too’?

  61. HAHAHHA

  62. yeah DD, there are some gates out there now with a little intercom system. the works. i drove out there not to long ago cuz a friend wanted to see it. didn’t see any atv’s on that trip, but have in the past. i did see a white suburban pull up and open the gate. they didn’t roll down the windows or nothing, so some must have remote controls.

  63. boots – good luck with your attempts to go to the grave of the little boy. if you get in, please put flowers on his grave from all of us. i so want to do it myself, but living as close as i do to the compound, it makes me jumpy to make myself known to the slime in charge that run the place.

    although, some women are still away from the ranch. was in san antonio this week and saw a couple of women in flds dress in wal mart. i’m betting one was annette jeffs although i didn’t get that good of a look at her.

  64. Hi Anon,

    His name was Allen and I spoke to his brother this week. He is a sweetheart, just a plain monogamous family man, with a wife and brand new baby, making 3.

    He stayed in for a long time and held on. Then, when he was 23 he just left. I like a lot of these boys that have married and started families. They are so grateful to be in monogamous families with one woman, and to give that gift to their children. They do have some solid family values in place and do love one another with all they’ve got.

    Don’t worry, hon. They aren’t going to physically harm you. They are just bullies, used to getting their own way, for a long time. The only people I believe they have ever hurt, besides Flora, who was beaten by members of the Colorado City “police force” for coming back to try to see her family, are each other, and their poor former members.

    The rest of us, they just bully. Their poor lawyers have to represent them, knowing full well the law is not on their side. Somebody, though, does have to represent them, that is also the law.

    Their lawyer’s individual motivations for doing so? Up for grabs.

    My motivation? Justice; plain and simple American justice.

    You bet I will lay some flowers for you, sugar.

    I have a trip to make next week, won’t make it that far, though, unless something unexpected happens.

  65. Some pretty important news which is quite relevant to this discussion:

    Jimmy Carter leaves the Southern Baptist Church over its treatment of women.

  66. wow, that is an amazing statement by Carter! Totally on target!

  67. Jimmy’s “money quote”:

    The truth is that male religious leaders have had – and still have – an option to interpret holy teachings either to exalt or subjugate women. They have, for their own selfish ends, overwhelmingly chosen the latter. Their continuing choice provides the foundation or justification for much of the pervasive persecution and abuse of women throughout the world.

  68. Ron in Houston, thank you so much for bringing that article about Jimmy Carter to our attention. I am going to “date” myself here, LOL, It was my first year of high school when Mr. Carter took office,and as a school girl living in Georgia I remember it very clearly. I remember that he was always an advocate of human rights. His presidency always seemed “unremarkable” to me, just kind of quiet. But all the things he has done for the advancement of human rights during and especially since his presidency and now with the wonderful stand he is taking on the rights of half the human population puts him in my eyes one of the best presidents we ever had.

  69. Ron after reading that article I was “inspired” to write to Mr. Carter via The Carter Center, to ask for his and his organization The Elders help with Senator Reid’s efforts to form a federal task force to end the abuses of the FDLS, again I would like to thank you for bringing that article to our attention.

    For anyone else that would like to contact Mr. Carter here are some ways to do so:

    Mailing Address:

    The Carter Center
    One Copenhill
    453 Freedom Parkway
    Atlanta, GA 30307

    Two different emails:

    carterweb@emory.edu

    http://www.jimmycarterlibrary.org/information/contact.phtml

    Please everyone feel free to join me in asking for their help in ending the subjugation of women and children of the FLDS>

  70. Ron, I’ll read that story later; I’m supposed to be working. But Jimmy Carter left the Southern Baptist Convention years ago, over something or another.

    (I’m not an apologist for the SBC, although I’ve a friend who’s an SBC minister, and I know no finer Christians than he.)

    Contacting Jimmy Carter about abuses of polygamy here is a brilliant idea.

  71. And, full disclosure—Carter was the politician who pushed me into the arms of the Republican Party. But I do think he’s a sincere Christian and a good man.

    Alright. Break’s over.

  72. That was an awesome article, Ron. I’ve never thought about former President Carter much but I must say I deeply respect his statements in that article.

  73. I guess I find it a sad footnote that Obama is blind and Jimmy can see?

    OKEE DOKEE then….

  74. I don’t think Obama is blind; I think he has other priorities. Time will tell.

  75. Boots

    Who would have thought the flds would deny persons rights?

    Isnt that the status quo? Hopefully you filed a greivance with the state, and the FLDS are required to open their commune to well wishers, who would pay respect to those Texans whom are buried there.

    Ignoring State law, over and over, isnt going to win them any points when that large group of men go to trial here in a few months.

    BTW I noticed they had the goofy gate on remote open with a big truck hauling out, probably returning to Short creek after delivering a load of Food Stamp food from Arizona.

    Isnt that what they do, haul it out there in a trailer?

    Why should the flds register as Texas residents when they get free welfare from Arizona?

    The state of AZ told Brooke there are investigations when there are allegations, hopefully we will hear from them soon!

    Your video (thanks BTW)

  76. Stamp,

    “Hopefully you filed a greivance with the state”

    Information on the actions taken so far will be posted by tomorrow sometime, on the main site.

    No – thank you!
    Boots

  77. LadySadie,

    I have spoken in the past of hoping to build bridges. This is a big one for me, because of some of President Carter’s statements and policies regarding Israel.

    But I’m willing to cross it if he will help.

    I’ll write,too.

    Boots

  78. Tony Alamo turned into a fried white ghost!

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j7JRsIm1DgSBIfIFSL3D_fjT1HmwD99GAOT00

  79. Boots, the way I see it the more people we make aware of the plight of the women, girls and children of the FLDS the better. Former President Carter is in a position where he has taken a very public stand against religious discrimination of women and girls. Because of his position and his affiliation with many world leaders his help could go a LONG way.

  80. Boots

    That took some guts! I hope word got around the commune that a woman had them shaking in their flds booties!

    OOPS Here comes KDee! Better call up Rotney and run up another $1,000 bill!

  81. HAW

    Its funny they asked if your were with Flora! She really scares the bejeebers out of them huh!?

  82. Was you wearing that top when you tried to visit the cemetary?

  83. Alin, I don’t know if you watched the video or not but she said that she had a long sleeved shirt and a skirt in her truck which she put on when she thought they were going to let her in as a gesture of respect. She took them off when it became clear that they were NOT going to obey the law and allow her in to pay her respects at the graveside of the child.

  84. Oddly enough, some people find getting heatstroke for the Lord as counterproductive as lying for the Lord. 😉

  85. If you want to read Judge Lindbergh’s rating for yourself rather than have Mudpucky translate for you, insinuating as he does that she should be up for judicial review, go to the source. A utah government website:
    :
    http://elections.utah.gov/racepdf/142740228/race/158668999.pdf

    She is not, according to this chart and it’s specification, qualifying for judicial review of any kind. Her average is 75%, and she gets over 70 on 10 of the 12 questions; she would have to get less than 8 at or below 70% favorable to be up for judicial review. Her rating from jurors is near 100%.

  86. Flora does scare them, honey. She’s been inside so she knows the priesthood’s secrets.
    Outsiders don’t seem to threaten their ego structures in the same ways. I’m sure they had never seen a “Polygamy is Abuse” sign anywhere else but on Flora’s car in Arizona before, too.

    Flora, like Carolyn, Elissa, Pam, Kathy Jo etc., you will notice the way they talk about them on places like the Trib and Brooke’s “blog”. They always question their motives and accuse them of being “impure”, “greedy”, “mean spirited”, “liars”, “gossips”, “booksellers”… I could go on.

    No matter what they’ll never admit the survivors are telling the truth. Flora’s aunt wrote a scathing letter about what a nasty rotten child Flora always was, accusing her of “murdering her hair”, when she cut it herself as a little girl. Her letter is posted on the Internet, along with many other letters about some of the other victims/survivors. Most of these letters are written by upstanding women in the FLDS cult.

    That’s why I call it re-raping the victim.
    After Kathy Jo came down for our AAAP picnic, she was summarily informed by the FLDS that she is now considered “A Black Apostate”.

    Whatever that means…

  87. Thanks Rebeckah. I watch the video but since I didn’t have earphones on it didn’t do me much good.

  88. Apparently back in 2000 Carter turned his back on the national Southern Baptist church.

    I guess now he’s severing all ties. Or maybe he’s just really, really serious this time. 🙂

  89. Boots

    Well, they have a “BLACK PROPHET” so it only seems to reason they would have black apostates!

    LOL

    Perhaps they are delving into voodoo now that Warren is taking prison correspondence courses?

    BTW yanno whats funny – Betty was “Contaminated” for living outside of the FLDS, whats that make Warren, the 12 future prisoners and all the other YFZ families living off the commune?

    The entire lot of them are contaminated!

  90. Stamp

    One time one of the FLDS online (can’t recall the screen name right now) told me he knew plenty of black FLDS members.

    That was the point that not only did I realize what lying sacks of ca ca they are it also proved what pathetically lame liars they are.

    Geez, you’d think if God wanted you to lie, he’d at least provide you with a plausible story.

  91. Stamp,

    Actually they will probably all be worshipped as martyrs for “the work”.

    That’s the reality.

    Their “reality” is that they cannot believe that the law is NOT on their side this time, because it always has been in the past, at least since 1953.

  92. Boots, we have a private burial ground on our property — two, in fact, though I’m not acquainted with anybody buried in the second one. You’re welcome to come visit ’em anytime you want!

  93. Boots said
    Flora, who was beaten by members of the Colorado City “police force” for coming back to try to see her family

    OMG Boots, when did THAT happen?

  94. Anon,

    I would have to ask Flora or Buster, probably Flora. I know it was way before Buster was elected. I think he owned a TV station before that and started interiewing survivors.

    When he was elected to the Mohave County Supervisor’s position he became more involved.

    Flora was still young and I think she wanted to visit her mother if I’m not mistaken, way before ever meeting him.

    If you have read Buster’s press release, calling for RICO to be used against the FLDS in 2006, you’ll remember he mentioned this happening to those trying to visit family. The police force was “private”, while being paid for by the public.

    Geesh, just last year Colorado City got the 3rd largest Homeland Security Grant in the state of Arizona, and have now added a dog to the unit.

    Are there a lot of drugs we don’t know about in Colorado City? Or is that dog for tracking, and if so, what?

    Who knows, it is Mohave County, Arizona, where they have county contracts awarded to companies owned by the FLDS every other month, it seems like. Three men on the BOD, and Buster is always the lone ‘no’ vote to that stuff.

    Democracy, who knew?

  95. Their “reality” is that they cannot believe that the law is NOT on their side this time, because it always has been in the past, at least since 1953.

    I’m not so sure it has anything to do with the law. I think it has more to do with public perception. The FLDS were able to control the message back in the 1950’s. Give Life magazine some access, manipulate the few TV stations and you were home free.

    Now, even if you get Oprah to be your tool, it’s hard to defeat the information available to folks through the internet. They’ve tried hard to control that, but so far they’ve failed. The message will only get worse when the trials start in Texas.

  96. I wonder if calling a person “black apostate” is like “blacklisted” from her family etc – DOUBLE blacklisted LMAO.

    Too funny when they get into that realm – “Escape” fleshed out well how they changed with the weather.

    BTW I tried to by “Church of Lies” at Barnes and Noble, they said they had it in stock and I looked for 1/2 hour and couldnt find it.

    Wont give up though, I am dying to read Floras accounts!

  97. RON

    That was a bell ringer! Yes the internet will peel their lying stinking onion!

    Anyone with 5 minutes and a notion to google will find the truth!

  98. Ron in Houston

    I certainly have no background or experience with the practice of law. So I didn’t comment much about the FLDS’s Attorney’s closing 100+ document but…to me it almost seemed as if Willy, or someone with the exact same mentality stood over someone’s shoulder and started declaring the right to abuse people, claiming protection under religious freedom?

  99. Great article and great find Ron. I posted the article in full

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2009/07/19/losing-my-religion/

    Ron, I also liked the post in your blog about the Restatement of Trusts and how dead on point it was. I might borrow your post as a jumping off point for further discussion. Thanks for your contributions.

  100. Ron, well the article in your second link says it’s because of them not allowing women pastors. Perhaps he’s referring to the same decision in both articles? Or maybe he left, changed his mind and left again? Who knows. 😀

    Stamp, who has said Betty was “contaminated” by living in the outside world? I’ve never seen a hint of that judgement.

  101. Betty
    I’m glad you posted the link for Lindberg’s judicial ranking – I tried finding it after reading on SLT that she was “horrible”. So now my question is what are the “averages”?HHG

  102. Rebeckah

    That was our of the book “ESCAPE” . . yes I was surprised too. Warren passed her up to marry her little 12 yr old half sister. At 20-21, Betty is now “Old Maid” material in the flds. She may NEVER be married.

    Thats why I have hope for her, that she will clue in to them discriminating on her because of her mother.

    She WAS Merrils favorite child – but she is no longer a child, though she took a long hard drink of that punch they serve.

    Still, I have faith she will get out if given half a chance. Living in that compound is like a jail – hard to escape and easy to despise.

    There may be many that are desperate to leave. PS does anyone have aource on how many families HAVENT returned to YFZ since the rescue?

    On another website I came across a poster who thinks they all have returned.

  103. They are now spread out across the entire state of Texas.

    Kerrville
    Amarillo
    Abilene
    Midland
    Lubbock
    San Antonio
    Austin
    Hunt
    Big Springs…to name a few.

    This actually will make welfare abuse more difficult to detect in the future, because those numbers are compiled by zip code.

  104. Seventh District Judge Lyle Anderson scored 63 percent for behavior free from impropriety, and 66 percent for behavior free from bias and favoritism.
    Third District Judge John Kennedy scored 69 percent for understanding the rules of procedure and evidence, and 68 percent for perceiving legal and factual issues
    Third District Judge Denise Lindberg scored 68 percent for behavior free from bias and favoritism, and 64 percent for demonstrating appropriate demeanor.
    Third District Juvenile Judge Andrew Valdez scored 68 percent for behavior free from bias and favoritism, and 69 percent for giving parties a fair opportunity to present the case. His overall favorable score was 76.

    This was the story on brookes blog last year, but, of course the link to the acutal story has been archived for the trib.

    http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/2008/10/lindberg-faces-retention-election.htm

  105. And as usual Brooke little blog story ONLY mentioned ONE judge, Judge Lindberg.

  106. Texasrattle,

    I’m going to have to hold you to the offer to let me visit your burial ground. Those have got to be some interesting old graves.

    Boots

  107. Um, well, Boots… the “old” graves are unmarked except for a fence, and the new one is my father-in-law, about 17, 18 years ago. Not very exciting, I’m afraid. Plan to come in the spring about blue bonnet time — it’ll be cooler, we won’t bother the hunters, and maybe we’ll have flowers this year.

  108. Hope they don’t marry Betty off to Willie.

  109. Whoa!!! Flds Texas, hope not either!! LOL

  110. Surely even BETTY would turn down Willie!

  111. As if Betty would have a choice. Do you really think the girls have a say in who they marry?

  112. She might have enough smarts and experience to leave.

  113. One of Willie’s concubines is mentaly challenged, and has somewhere between an 8 and 12 year old level of mental capacity is what I understand.

    Last count he had two, and we think they are sisters. Unless something has changed and he’s been rewarded with a new one or something… But we all know “all child bride marriages have stopped in Utah and Arizona”.

    I guess that was an assignment divinely inspired by Warren Jeffs.

  114. hellohellogoodbye,

    Lindbergh is pretty low in the rankings, maybe even the lowest. But consider this: she’s female, she’s Cuban. There were only 102 lawyers responding and some ranked her as excellent on all of the questions. So, how many lawyers are working for the FLDS in Salt Lake City? Enough to skew the numbers? Her worse scores were for bias and ‘decorum’ whatever the heck that is.

  115. Oh, Boots — that’s sick.

  116. Yep. Sick but common.

  117. The same thing happened to Mary Mackert’s sister, Paula.

  118. Boots I read your blog about that,,, I was amazed, and felt sick.

  119. Willie has more than two wives now. He has a younger one who travels with him, and it is rumored that he married another underage girl within the last couple of months in Short Creek.

  120. For Real???

  121. WOW!!!!!

  122. Willie’s racking up the … uh, points, ain’t he.

  123. News media reports that President Obama, President Monson of LDS Church, and Sen. Harry Reid will be meeting in a closed door meeting at the Whitehouse Monday 20 July 09. Press not allowed. As everyone who has followed this blog knows Sen. Reid has been vocal about having polygamists FLDS investigated under RICO, Mann Act etc. Here’s more:

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12872708

    Hope Sen Reid convinces both President Obama & President Monson to cooperate in fed investigation of FLDS and like groups. This is the time for Sen. Reid step up to the plate while he has the ear of the two men with the ability to deal with issue of FLDS organized crime.

  124. Boy, this is interesting. At first I thought it was just an Obama lip service meeting with the Mormons. But when I read that Harry Reid was being thrown into the mix, then I just went hmmmmmm. Of course it is wishful thinking that the LDS would do anything to help or to address the Mormon polygamy problsms, but then again Harry Reid is going to be thrown into the mix. Still makes me go hmmmmmmm.

  125. Back to Betty for a moment….this may have already been asked and answered [and I just can’t find it]… FLDS TEXAS said “As if Betty would have a choice. Do you really think the girls have a say in who they marry?”
    Do you think Betty is being ‘denied’ a husband and family as a ‘punishment’ for her mother’s outspokeness? Or to try and prove a point that she has ‘free will’ and therefore isn’t married by her own choice? [Even tho that’s contrary to their belief?] I’ve been back and forth, with myself, on the issue and I sorta lean towards the punishment angle. It’s more in line with how they deal with ‘free weill’ issues, isn’t it?

  126. I hope Hellohellogoodbye gets to Washington with her petition soon.

    I’m a ‘black apostate’ Episcopalian myself. But I don’t think it means the same thing.

  127. The LDS church owned Deseret News describes the meeting as a coutesy call. It goes on to stste that one of Monson’s counselors represented the church at the inaguration. A coutesy visit was planned in Utah before the election between Obama and church leaders, but was cancelled due to the death of Monson’s predecessor. Interesting though that Harry Reid is involved. There are several other LDS senators including those from Utah. Why Reid?

  128. Soozie said:”Do you think Betty is being ‘denied’ a husband and family as a ‘punishment’ for her mother’s outspokeness? Or to try and prove a point that she has ‘free will’ and therefore isn’t married by her own choice?”

    Hey Soozie, my take on this is this: given Merril & Babs obvious and extreme desire to produce Prophet-coplulated-Grand-babies (ie passing their their 12 year old daughter to Warren like a gravy-boat at dinner) I suspect that Ms. Betty is promised to the *Boss*….if not already …er…celestially-wand-waved ~ ~

    She and her 80-ish sister wives stand at the ready…for those prison walls to fall and Planet-Master Baby-Daddy Warren to stride manfully towards each of their bedrooms.

    Yeah, I know — sounds *ss-crazy, but I’d bet I’m not far from the truth.

    Seriously…I doubt she’s under punishment, they’re not through using her yet, poor girl.

    p.s. FLDS Texas…any new news on Warren wives? I admit a fascination with how THAT MANY women, who were raised to bear as many children as possible…are dealing with life as *non-bearers*. Now there’s a story Brooke could cover — “Warren’s Weeping Wives…and how Bruce Wisan is responsible” 😉

  129. hmmmm–I saw slick willie on some news program right after the raid; reporter asked him how many wives he had and he snickered and said–“3″…????
    So–do we for sure know how many he has???

  130. Duane the comments you made on Brooke’s blog speculating on why FLDS Church doesn’t teach or believe in the NASA Apollo Moon Missions has to do with their belief in Prophet Brigham Young’s revelation about a colony of people whom he said live on the Moon and has nothing to do with the FLDS Church’s lack of trust for the Federal government. [I tried to post this reply on Adams blog but it is being held in “moderation” so my free speech is being impeded]. Since NASA never reported the presence of the Lunar colony, FLDS Church doctrines simply don’t jive with the Apollo Missions, they believe falsely that the government is lying about claiming manned missions to the Lunar surface. I see your post is that the Apollo Missions are factual, so you must disagree with this FLDS Church position?

  131. OMG – thanks cajiM for setting the record straight. Now it makes sense, the Moon landings are a direct threat to the accuracy of their doctrine.

    Bringem Young’s own words:

    “Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?…when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the ignorant of their fellows. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 271)

  132. Yes, Ron, Joseph had a “revelation” that the moon was inhabited by 9 foot tall humans who dressed like Quakers. 😉

  133. Yes, Ron and even some very devout LDS members still allow room for the possibility that life may yet be shown to exist or have existed, proving Brigham Young’s comment to be correct and an obvious revelation at the time of his pronouncement. Today, NASA is speculating if there is even enough water present on the Lunar surface to support a NASA Colonization, which could be argued as a prophecy that has come to pass, albeit without folks that are over 6 feet tall, conservatively attired and live to be 1,000 years of age. Also, the FLDS church sect holds fast to Brigham Young’s “Adam-God” revelation as a major tenet to their belief system. This revelation has not received broader belief or support throughout greater Mormondom but just amongst the excommunicated FLDS Church membership.

    I think NASA could save alot of time and resources trying to confirm the adequate water supply by just asking the prophet Warren Jeffs were the water is to be found on the Lunar surface.

  134. Geez Louise – I’m biting very, very hard on my secular humanist tongue.

  135. Greetings From New York,

    If you wouldn’t mind, could you shoot me an email when you have the time?

    Thanks,

    Boots
    TripleAP@gmail.com

  136. Ron, I paid a higher price for my official Apollo XI Mission patch at the Smithsonian Air & Space Museum because it had supposedly gone aboard mission capsule and was returned to Earth as a unique and official mission artifact. If it turns out that NASA faked this entire Apollo thing, do you think I have a case of fraud against the Smithsonian Museum? You know the Moon doesn’t rotate on it’s own axis so there’s no telling who lives on the “Dark Side”.

  137. If they’re looking for people over six feet tall, conservatively attired, and (feeling) more than a thousand years old, they can come to my house. It’s in New York, which may as well be the dark side of the moon if you’re from Short Creek.

    CA, I think the Smithsonian would just give you your purchase price back. But I doubt you can do it with a straight face.

    Happy Lunar Landing Day!

  138. Talking about trips to the moon?

    How about the POTUS Obama meeting with LDS President Monson and LDS Senior Senator Harry Reid today in the Oval Office?

    Wish I was the FLY on THAT WALL!

    We will vet the meeting following this, by their actions and words.

    Here’s hoping they have their heads screwed on straight.

    I realize Mark would like to set the FLDS back to their original position, is this what Monson, Reid and Obama will agree to do?

    To avoid any additional embarrassing news?

  139. Stamp, Come on you know full well that Obama, Monson and Reid will have to ask for Pope Benedict’s Papal blessing first, they can go ahead with their covert agreements.

  140. Deputydog, there is a “fire lindberg” webpage out there. I researched the guy who put it up. He’s had multiple domestic violence arrests, and has had both a divorce and a bankruptcy fairly recently. Lindberg was involved in those. I’m thinking he didn’t like the way those turned out. LOL.

  141. I thought it was illegal to have sex with someone severely retarded to the point where they cannot make an adult decisions. It IS in my state, anyway.

  142. Betty, thank you for voicing that… maybe some of our legal-eagle friends can answer it.

  143. “I see your post is that the Apollo Missions are factual, so you must disagree with this FLDS Church position?”

    Of course i don’t agree with everything the FLDS advocates, just as with many other religions. Thanks for the info on BYoung, the FLDS has no monopoly on “far out” beliefs, but since they are not evangelical and thus not trying to ram their beliefs down my throat, I give them a plus.

    later

  144. In Texas lack of consent to a sexual act can occur if:

    the actor knows that as a result of mental disease or defect the other person is at the time of the sexual assault incapable either of appraising the nature of the act or of resisting it

    Texas Penal Code Sec. 22.011(b)(4)

  145. So, Ron, who determines if a person is incapable of appraising the nature of the act or of resisting it?

    Sounds to me kind of like it’s up to that incapable person to resist, or to turn in the perpetrator, whereupon that person becomes capable.

    Doesn’t sound like very much protection to me.

  146. Duh duane I have never read anyone on these posts trying to jam anything down your throat religiously, rather than pointing out the fallacy in your thinking, position and libertarian beliefs. You have to pay particular attention to FLDS belief system, not in evangelizing, but rather in Divine prophetic communication and revelations. You choose to ignore their religious tenets and define them strictly in your secular and political terms which puts them half in your box of thought but they still are dangling over and outside of your purely secular viewpoint. They worship God as their ultimate lawful authority and belief in a theocracy form of governance. This is the age old dilemma for Libertarians is how to ally and unify with religious groups that are philosophical opposites to Libertarian values/positions. The FLDS Church doesn’t want to see as little governance as possible(the Libertarian Ideal) but rather no government to exist popularly in the electorate at all and look to God as their Ruler.

  147. I think its so nice duane doesnt get that FLDS religion shoved down his throat, if only the women and children from Shortcreek could say the same!

    Say, doodles, read “ESCAPE” yet?

  148. Oh wait thats right, duane is of the thought process that if you were born into the FLDS, you are the property of the Prophet.

    Just like what the FLDS think. Too bad a few women and judges are proving them wrong!

  149. Texasrattle

    I agree that the statue is probably not that much protection. I’d say protection depends on someone around the impaired person. Obviously if you’re incapable of appraising the nature of the act then you’re probably incapable of knowing that you’ve been sexually assaulted.

    Like many things in the law, it’s a balance. You want to punish the person who takes advantage of others while still allowing people with mental disabilities to have sex lives.

    I might do a search and see if there are any reported cases dealing with that particular part of the penal code.

  150. Or, Thank God a few women and judges are proving them wrong!

  151. In state homes for mentally retarded, men take advantage of the women all the time, and get put in jail for it. Excuse me for being so blunt, but if FLDS are marrying off mentally retarded or mentally challenged women to MEN within their group, there ought to be a law against it!! People with an IQ of a 3 or 4 yr old doesn’t have a clue what’s happening to them, and it should be stopped!!

  152. And I don’t believe someone with a mind of a 3 or 4 yr old knows how to tell someone they have been assaulted, unless caught in the act.

  153. Excuse me for being so blunt, but if FLDS are marrying off mentally retarded or mentally challenged women to MEN within their group, there ought to be a law against it!!
    ========================================================
    I don’t think they are. From what I’ve seen they are a bright enough bunch. It’s a balancing act. We want to protect the rights of the mentally retarded from assualt without stripping the mentally retarded of his or her constitutional rights to have a normal sex life with her or his chosen partner.

  154. Alinusara, you think someone with a mental capability of 50 can chose a partner??? What are you, saddistic???

  155. “I don’t think they are. From what I’ve seen they are a bright enough bunch. It’s a balancing act. We want to protect the rights of the mentally retarded from assualt without stripping the mentally retarded of his or her constitutional rights to have a normal sex life with her or his chosen partner.”

    They’ve done it to at least one woman with a functional IQ of 63. I somehow doubt Paula is the only one.

  156. ““All my husband wanted me for was to make babies and be his slave.” ~Paula Mackert-Survivor IQ 63

  157. Alinusara, you think someone with a mental capability of 50 can chose a partner??? What are you, saddistic???
    ============================================================
    I know a woman with an IQ of 68 or 58 depending on who does the test who is happy with her husband in Wenatchee Washington. I know her name because of the Wenatchee sex trials a few years back where they thought a whole bunch of folks was molesting children. Her name is Imelda Everett.

  158. Alin, for your edification:

    “Paula is the mother of six living children, she has endured nine miscarriages in a row, and losing an infant daughter to SIDS; all this while she has struggeled to function with an IQ of 63.”

    http://www.vjmgatewaytofreedom.com/IndividualsWeAreHelping.html

  159. “I know a woman with an IQ of 68 or 58 depending on who does the test who is happy with her husband in Wenatchee Washington. I know her name because of the Wenatchee sex trials a few years back where they thought a whole bunch of folks was molesting children. Her name is Imelda Everett.”

    Really? Please give us some details. Unless this woman has a husband of normal mental functioning and at least one sister-wife, and unless she has given birth at least 7 times and endured 9 miscarriages on top of that, somehow I doubt that their lives can be compared.

    Talk about comparing apples with oranges!

  160. “Paula is the mother of six living children, she has endured nine miscarriages in a row, and losing an infant daughter to SIDS; all this while she has struggeled to function with an IQ of 63.”
    ———————————————————–
    I have a niece, normal intelligence who loves children, so far she has had 2, then 3 miscarriages in a row. She’s pregnant again and terrified of losing this one. I’m keeping her in my prayers.

  161. “I have a niece, normal intelligence who loves children, so far she has had 2, then 3 miscarriages in a row. She’s pregnant again and terrified of losing this one. I’m keeping her in my prayers.”

    So if she, with a normal intelligence is “terrified” how much worse do you think it would be for a mentally challenged woman to deal with. How inhumane to expect it of her?

  162. It’s totally idiotic for any human being to NOT teach their children about sex. Flds do NOT teach sex to any of thier children.
    Oh that talk about being married and having lots of children, but how ignorant is it to throw your little girl to a Grown Adult man to marry, and have sex with, when the girl hasn’t been taught squat about sex.

  163. Still waiting on those details about the woman in Wenatchee, Alin. I live in that neck of the woods too, so I’d really like to check out your vague reference. I notice you do that a lot. Think people are too stupid to realize you’re making statements without any evidence? Some might be — I tend to notice stuff like that, and I know I’m not the only one on this blog who does.

  164. A mother and father should set down with their children when they are old enough to comprehend what sex is about, and explain that their bodies are sacred. They should honor their bodies, and when they are mature enough and fall in love with a young man or young woman and decided to marry, then is when they should have sex.
    Girls should know how their bodies function, and should know how they become pregnant, and what to expect during pregnancy. Boys should know that not only should they respect their own body, but that of a young woman. Boys should be taught how girls get pregnant, and what the autotomical parts of the body are.
    Just telling a girl, she is getting married in 3 hours isn’t enough!!!
    Young people should feel comfortable talking to their parents about questions they have about sex.

  165. onthestreet, your a pervert, go crawl back in your hole!

  166. so what should the IQ level be for a woman to legally consent to sex? Should women of low iq’s only be allowed to have sex with men with similiarly low iqs?
    Would like to know more about how the law deals with those who suffer various forms of mental disabilities and how it legally affects their capacity to consent.

  167. Duane does your question take into account motherhood and the skill set and IQ or a woman to raise her child, nurture it and parent it to young adulthood?

  168. One of my friends daughters, whom I have known for years has the mental capacity of a 3yr old. She at the age of 30 still carries her baby doll around everywhere. She has lived with her parents all her life, and in answer to your question duane, NO!!! she could NOT raise a real child, nor would she know the first thing about pregnancy, sex, or marriage.

  169. She will never be more than a 3yr old mentally duane!!! Do you NOT understand that?

  170. What about the ones with the iq of a 16 year old?
    Should they be denied sex or only allowed to have sex with men whos mental iq’s go up to 18?

  171. At least Willie has someone who understands him.

    ACK! My bad! Poor lady!

  172. Maybe we should classify age of consent by iq instead of age. Say within 20 points then legal. Problem is, what If my iq was say 115 and my wife’s 90. That would be mean that I raped her hundreds of times during our 15 year marriage and she is a “rape victim”. But what if say a 15 year old genius with iq of 140 has sex with a 20 year old bimbo whose iq is 85. Could he be charged with sexual assault and said bimbo being a “victim” since he is so much smarter than her and undoubtedly “manipulated” her into having sex?

  173. Duane are you wanting one of those 50s?

  174. So what is the name of Willie’s mentally challenged wife and what is her iq level?
    This is great, first they marry underage girls and have sex with them, toss out boys, ex men for the fun of it, now we learn that they have sex with girls with low iqs. What if the man has a low iq and his wives are much smarter, does that mean he is “victim” and his wives all “perpetrators”?

  175. Do I smell a blunt? How about you, Granny Toad?

    smells like weed burning in overtime?!!

  176. I don’t know grannytoad, what is yours?

  177. Stamp, I’m drinking a beer and smokin’ a cig. No blunts.
    Say, did you figure out by looking at Brooke’s masthead photos that her blog is obviously about the Mormon “plural life”?
    She didn’t include the word “mormon” cuz anyone with an iq above 50 or so could obviously figure that out all by themselves.

  178. The header is new as of a few months – and in the past she has posted news regarding other plygs, as mentioned her recent footnote on Tony Alamos tiny, yet insignificant victory.

    I suppose when he is convicted of marrying 10 children she will neglect to point it out, as it might depress 50000 Utard Plygs.

    They need a wake up call, yet Brooke fails to deliver!

  179. Brooke can’t deliver, she is too busy bottling cherries.

  180. It looks like Brooke might have loosened her control on “monitoring” her dead blog because all of a sudden there is life (activity) there and blogger’s expressions are getting posted.
    Is this the action of a desperate reporter seeing her little blog dry up or someone finally seeing the light of day?

  181. She was never biased, in spite of Watching’s whinings, Chloe’s rants always get through.

  182. “so what should the IQ level be for a woman to legally consent to sex? Should women of low iq’s only be allowed to have sex with men with similiarly low iqs?
    Would like to know more about how the law deals with those who suffer various forms of mental disabilities and how it legally affects their capacity to consent.”

    It is a balancing act, Duane. The idea is to protect a person with an inability to reason at an adult level from exploitation while still allowing them to make fundamental choices concerning their own lives and bodies. What was done to Paula was pure exploitation and her comment makes it clear she also feels that way. Like young girls choosing to marry, the only way I can see to protect, without stifling, would be judicial oversight. There’s no question in my mind that the FLDS are violating the rights of any mentally impaired woman who has been married off and turned into a broodmare. Does that mean they should never be allowed to marry? No. It just means that they should be told, encouraged or forced to marry and that they should have someone neutral watching over them to make sure that their choices are truly their own.

  183. “Maybe we should classify age of consent by iq instead of age. Say within 20 points then legal. Problem is, what If my iq was say 115 and my wife’s 90. That would be mean that I raped her hundreds of times during our 15 year marriage and she is a “rape victim”. But what if say a 15 year old genius with iq of 140 has sex with a 20 year old bimbo whose iq is 85. Could he be charged with sexual assault and said bimbo being a “victim” since he is so much smarter than her and undoubtedly “manipulated” her into having sex?”

    There you go off into your fantasy “what-if” land. Sorry to have to point this out to you again, Duane, but your attitudes on sex and consent are really twisted.

  184. “So what is the name of Willie’s mentally challenged wife and what is her iq level?”

    Don’t know anything about Willie’s wife or wives but Paula Mackert has an IQ of 68 and was “coerced”, “manipulated”, and “exploited” into marriage, seven live births and nine miscarriages. Go ahead and “what if” that into acceptability.

  185. “She was never biased, in spite of Watching’s whinings, Chloe’s rants always get through.”

    I’m sure Chloe has had posts that were “moderated” out of existence. I know I have. I just try harder to stay within Brooke’s guidelines the next time I post.

  186. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705318077/Pres-Monson-gives-Pres-Obama-family-history-book.html?pg=1

    URL for a DesNews article on the meeting between LDS President Thomas Monson and POTUS Barrak Obama. It seemed to be a courtesy call with ample precedent.

  187. Thank you for the link chemist.

    I just read a bunch of the comments…the term *Bliss Ninny* comes to mind.

    But, at least someone covered the story.

  188. Supposedly Monson gave Obama a book on genealogy. It showed that Obama is 8th cousin to – get this – Dick Cheney.

  189. Did they find anything on his fathers side? I know it gets kinda wild there – his dad was a travelling bigamist – plyg.

  190. Duane
    will what if his way out of anything….. everything is a moving standard: age IQ.

    Basically all laws can be what if to demonstrate that they shouldn’t be enacted much less enforced. What if I’m a better driver than everybody else – what if the road is dry on this day – shouldn’t I be allowed to drive 40 instead of 30?

    The problem with what iffing is that all laws are arbitrary (as Duane correctly points out) at some level, but they are arrived at by a majority will as a workable standard. So even tho I am a better driver than everybody else out there I accept that I have to drive 30. By the same token if the law says that somebody with an iq of 80 can not make an informed decision about sex I will follow that law and not have sex with them and I will further attempt to intervene when others try to have sex with the individual. Ditto for children. If my state says 16 then 16 it is. If your state says 18 then 18 it is.

    If I don’t like the law – then I will a) break it in a very public manner to draw attention to it with the hope of setting off a chain reaction to alter it; b) form a group to lobby to change it; c) roll my eyes and mutter.

    If this is your forum to start the ball rolling to decriminalize polygamy you need to start coming up with better arguments than “what if”

  191. HHG

    duane is just playing the TROLL with the IQ – sex question. I’m sure he spends alot of time fantasizing about it.

    If he was stupid he could have a stupid wife. Maybe thats how it works for him?

  192. If someone is so retarded that they would not know when to take themselves to the doctor, they should not be caring for a child.

  193. So if she, with a normal intelligence is “terrified” how much worse do you think it would be for a mentally challenged woman to deal with. How inhumane to expect it of her?
    ======================================================
    So are you saying a mentally retarded woman whyo wants children may not have sex because it may end up in a miscarriage?

  194. Still waiting on those details about the woman in Wenatchee, Alin.
    =====================================================
    Here you go if you like to look it up.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenatchee_sex_ring

  195. By the same token if the law says that somebody with an iq of 80 can not make an informed decision about sex I will follow that law and not have sex with them and I will further attempt to intervene when others try to have sex with the individual.
    =======================================================
    However the law says nothing about having sex with a partner with a lower IQ. It appears that people are trying to build some sort of “master race” by allowing only people of acceptable IQ’s to have sex.

  196. Ali-Oop, the name of the woman YOU gave, Imelda Everett, is not listed ANYWHERE on that link you gave….so we are still waiting and waiting and waiting.

  197. K sec.

  198. Idella Everett, 44, who has an IQ of 68, seemed timid and childlike on the stand, but adamantly said “no” when asked if she molested her children.

    Yet her conviction was won in part through the use of her own confession – a confession she has long maintained was a lie she told because Perez threatened to take her children away if she didn’t agree to his version of events.
    http://www.ssristories.com/show.php?item=2088
    =================================================
    I cannot find at the moment where her initial prison evaluation tested her at 58. If someone really wants it I’ll look it up.

  199. So ali-oops your first post about Idella Everett is this:

    ***
    Alinusara, you think someone with a mental capability of 50 can chose a partner??? What are you, saddistic???
    ============================================================
    I know a woman with an IQ of 68 or 58 depending on who does the test who is happy with her husband in Wenatchee Washington. I know her name because of the Wenatchee sex trials a few years back where they thought a whole bunch of folks was molesting children. Her name is Imelda Everett.
    ***

    Now if you go to the lastest link you provided and ACTUALLY read the ENTIRE thing, do you really want to hold this woman up as a shining example of a mentally challenged person making “happy” choices?

    From the article:

    “Idella Everett, 44, who has an IQ of 68, seemed timid and childlike on the stand…Idella Everett said she completed special education through the eighth grade and could not read the confession she signed….

    Harold Everett, 68, meanwhile, admitted he might have been guilty of using physical force – spanking children with a belt – and of poor housekeeping, but he adamantly denied sex abuse.

    Asked how far he got in school, Everett said, “I never even got in the front door.” He said he can only read his own name.

    The Everetts’ two youngest daughters were removed from their home by CPS because of complaints of negligence and excessive force in discipline. When his youngest daughter, who was living in Perez’s home in September 1994, implicated him and his wife, Everett said Perez showed up at his door to arrest him.

    Everett said the daughter who accused him was “a good girl, but she had two different personalities. Sometimes she was as nice as could be, but the others times she was outrageous. She threw fits, chopped with a knife on the furniture and would raise Cain with her mother,” he said.

    Riesen, the prosecutor, noted that Everett was investigated in 1993 on allegations of physical abuse and touching one of his sons’ genitals.

    But under questioning by his lawyer, Robert Van Siclen, Harold Everett said his son was a chronic bedwetter and suffered from infections that required application of medication.

    Resembling her mother with long dark hair, the girl testified from behind a screen.

    Contradicting two brothers who testified Wednesday that no abuse occurred, Melinda maintained she had been abused by her parents, and by groups of adults in other homes and in a church, where she said children were tied and molested “lots” of times.

    But she said she remembers much more and often contradicted herself.

    At one point, she said her prior recantation of allegations against her parents and others resulted from threats by her grandparents. Last week in a deposition for a civil trial, she said the threats had come from one of the accused.”
    ****

    So lets see this couples children had ALREADY been removed from their home due to abuse and neglect (most probably because neither had the intellect to take care of themselves much less children) before the sex allegations came about and you want to hold them up as shining examples?

  200. So lets see this couples children had ALREADY been removed from their home due to abuse and neglect (most probably because neither had the intellegect to take care of themselves much less children) and you want to hold them up as shining examples?
    ==========================================================
    I’m holding them up as shining examples of people making choices only. Most of their bad experiences was due to no fault of their own but a poor investigation. “In 1998, Dr. Phillip Esplin, a forensic psychologist for the National Institutes of Health’s Child Witness Project said that “Wenatchee may be the worst example ever of mental health services being abused by a state … to control and manage children who have been frightened and coerced into falsely accusing their parents and neighbors of the most heinous of crimes.”[10]

  201. That is in regards only to the sex trials ali-oop, you said you knew this woman direct quote from you “I know a woman with an IQ of 68 or 58 depending on who does the test who is happy with her husband in Wenatchee Washington.”, but then you provide a link that shows her life was already miserable before the allegations ever even came up, whose children had already been removed from her care because of abuse and neglect before the allegations ever even came up.

    You were hold her up as a mentally challenged woman that you KNOW (again your direct quote “I know a woman with an IQ of 68 or 58 depending on who does the test who is happy with her husband in Wenatchee Washington.”) who is “happy” with her choice of husband (who the link you provided shows is also mentally challenged). So really from reading the article from the link YOU provided, do you think this woman is even capable of determining if she is “happy” or not? Or is she “happy” if ANYONE would hand her a babydoll and a cookie and sit her in a rocking chair? Is she really capable of making that mental determination?

  202. So really from reading the article from the link YOU provided, do you think this woman is even capable of determining if she is “happy” or not?
    =======================================================
    I’m pretty sure she can tell the difference between happiness and unhappiness. Unhappiness was when she was convicted of a crime she didn’t commit. Happiness was when her conviction was overturned on appeal and she was reunited with her husband.

  203. Your “pretty sure” ali-oop? You said you KNOW her why wouldn’t you know this then? And are you really sure? Let’s play duane’s “whatif” game….What if while in prison they gave her a babydoll and cookie and rocking chair and let her just sit and play with her babydoll all day, would she be just as “happy” doing that as living in the filthy (her husbands own words and one of the reasons her children were taken from her) house with her mentally challenged husband?

  204. Alinusara’s problem is with CPS. She holds up some poor mentally challenged women with an IQ of 68 or 58 and then proceeds to tell everyone she is happy having kids and a husband? But, Cps took the children away. Actually, Mentally challenged people with extremely low IQ’s are usually pretty happy people, they don’t know anything else, because they have No reasoning abilities. I doubt this woman even knew what cleaning house meant, or taking care of REAL children meant. On that level, the children were probably like baby dolls to her. It’s not the ladies fault, its the fact she was mentally incapable of doing what capable people do. And she was living with a husband who himeslef was mentally challenged Alinusara, so you have TWO adults with children’s minds trying to be a family, Sorry hon, doesn’t work.

  205. Put it this way Alinusara,

    If I put a 3yr old little girl in actual age, 3yrs old on a witness stand and ask if they were molested, do you honestly believe they would know what the hell you were talking about?

    Now take a grown woman with the MIND of a 3yr old and ask the same question!

  206. Who was the little boy in Willie’s window, on the cover of the Spectrum, and who was his mommy and is she in fact mentally challenged?

    There. I’ll ask it.

  207. Boots, that picture still haunts Me!

  208. Allen Glade Steed say NO PLEA deal on the rape charge.
    His attorney Bradshaw is filing for a dismissal of the case,on statue of limitations…

    http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=7238982

  209. OK, I’ll go ahead and say it (yea, yea, I already know it’s not nice) but….wouldn’t she have to be mentally challenged if she married weewillie?

  210. Here is the arrest information for Allen Glade Steed October 2007.

    http://media.bonnint.net/slc/231/23163/2316316.pdf

  211. Gee, if the statute of limitations ran out, the Washington County Attorney couldn’t have wanted the dude too bad.

    Yeah, I’d joke with you on that one LadyS, but I’m still haunted by that picture myself, and have wondered about this for a while now.

    People with those reasoning skills should be getting a cookie and playing with their dolly. How could they be expected to show the patience every toddler needs?

  212. Since when is there a statue of limitations on rape?

  213. Boots, the joke was supposed to be on the weewillie part and anyone would have to be mentally challenged to marry him, sorry didn’t mean it to reflect on the child.

    That picture broke my heart the first time I saw it and still brings tears to my eyes. I get mad everytime I think about how LE left that child in that home. I wonder how he is today, I wonder how much more abuse he has and still does suffer as LE basically said we don’t care use that boys face as a punching bag all you want.

  214. Hey, and I didn’t mean to reflect no sense of humor either, lol. I have to have one or I would quit. Flora really tried to work on that while she was here, getting me to lighten up and laugh at the jokes, especially if they were sick;)

    Now that Mike O. Leavitt has left DC, maybe he has moved back to Cedar City and he and Willie are neighbors. Maybe Mike O. Leavitt is watching that baby for us.

  215. DD: http://blog.laborlawtalk.com/2006/10/30/utah-criminal-statute-of-limitations-laws/

  216. Thanks boots, but Allen was charged for rape in October 2007 after admitting he had married a child 14yrs old and had sexual relations with her. So, if he was charged in 2007 statue of limitations shouldnt be up yet right?

  217. I dunno, hon. I’m not a lawyer and don’t pretend to be one on TV eiether;)

    Maybe it is from the time of the alleged crime, not the date of charges? Maybe there is some super secret statute of limitations only provided to polygamists who rape children in Utah, like the super secret sex offender registry some of them are ordered to register with but we can never find them? Heck, who knows? It is Utah.

    Maybe they’re going to argue she’s all grown up now, so she has no right to complain about her “rape” anymore?

    So how is Mohave County’s case against Jeffs going? Has anyone heard anything about the Arizona case?

  218. Not a word on that case, except Judge Conn is waiting for Judge Walther ruling on the Supression of Evidence,LOL

    Aint Life great!!! LOL

  219. Judge Walther better hurry up and make a ruling because her first pre trail hearings are on the 23rd of July.

  220. Mike Picaretta is only holding a ‘pair of threes’, so that’s why going to trial is such a scary thing for them, Boots. Trial will take under a week to testify and Warren will be convicted and available to face the Federal flight charges.

  221. Seems a lot of issues are on hold until Judge Walther rules

  222. So if she, with a normal intelligence is “terrified” how much worse do you think it would be for a mentally challenged woman to deal with. How inhumane to expect it of her?
    ======================================================
    So are you saying a mentally retarded woman whyo wants children may not have sex because it may end up in a miscarriage?

    Uhh, no, I’m saying there was NO indication ANYWHERE that Paula Mackart wanted to have the children she has. I believe she was forced into pregnancy after pregnancy because she didn’t have the capacity for rational thought to defend herself. That’s why we have to have a neutral advocate for people with mental challenges when they are “choosing” to make decisions to live in the NeuroTypical world. To make sure it is honestly their choice, that they can handle the consequences (clearly Paula couldn’t because her children were removed by CPS and clearly her husband and sister wife weren’t there to help her keep them — so much for the joys of FLDS family) and to aid them as they do so.

  223. I agree with you Rebeckah!

  224. Alin, I followed your link to Wiki, found nothing I didn’t already know about the Wenatchee Sex Ring circus, and nothing whatsoever about your happily married mentally challenged woman. So is she real or one of Duanes “what ifs”? Apparently she has nothing to do with the Wenatchee sex trials.

  225. “Alin, I followed your link to Wiki, found nothing I didn’t already know about the Wenatchee Sex Ring circus, and nothing whatsoever about your happily married mentally challenged woman. So is she real or one of Duanes “what ifs”? Apparently she has nothing to do with the Wenatchee sex trials.”

    Okay, nvm. Clear case of apples and oranges and certainly no argument that the FLDS should be allowed to marry off and impregnate their mentally challenged females with no neutral oversight. The woman you cite has every right to be married but clearly she and her husband lack the basic parenting skills to adequately care for their children. So they probably shouldn’t be having them, should they? Any more pointless comparisons?

  226. The matter of the Statute of Limitations in the Allen Steed case has to do with when the police report was filed against him for raping Elissa. The rapes started in 2001 (April I think). The police report was filed in 2005 (January I think). The defense attorney is claiming that the early rapes (when she was only 14) are beyond the statute of limitations and he can’t be charged for those acts.

    But it seems to me that the prosecutors made it just under the wire of the 4 year limit, but the defense says NO.

    Utah changed the law regarding the Statute of Limitations in May 2005. Before that, the crime had to be reported to law enforcement within 4 years of the act. Now the law allows the report to be made within 8 years of the act.

    So, there were other rapes of Elissa after the alleged 4 year Statute of Limitations had run out. The State can still charge Allen for those crimes. But, Elissa would have been older during those rapes. It is a more serious crime to rape a 14 year old and that is what they want to try Allen on.

    The defense attorney is also claiming that the police report is invalid. He claims that Gary Engles was an investigator with the Mohave County Attorney’s Office and was not a certified law enforcement officer and was not qualified to be considered as an appropriate person to report the sexual assault to. i.e he is not a police officer or a CPS worker.

    So this is why there was no plea agreement today. It looks like these matters are going to have to be heard in court. And, the case might end up going to trial.

    And who on this blog said lawyers weren’t slime balls? Was it Ron in Houston who said that? Allen sure found himself a slime ball lawyer.

    It doesn’t look like justice in this case, it looks like slime ball lawyering looking for minor technicalities. Oh yeah, but that’s what lawyers often do.

    Ron, I mean no offense to you.

  227. If Allen was not FLDS, most would not consider him guilty of rape. The letters apologizing to elissa for not attending to her needs, Elissa admitting having sex with him for favors, screwing around around on him with other guys-not having the decency to break it off with him before she screwed other guys…that is adultery or cheating no matter how you choose to spin it. She didnt escape but was exed for her adultery. No, he is innocent but served his purpose of putting Warren in prison.

    No doubt the prosecutor is offering him a super sweet deal, perhaps even willing to pass off some green to him. But no, allen is refusing…I doubt he will go to trial…too risky for the prosecution as if he is acquitted it will cast serious doubts on Warren’s conviction.

  228. You ignorant ass hole duane! First of all, Elissa was 14 when she was forced to marry her FIRST BLOOD cousin… That right there was the first law broken.
    Second. Being 14 she didn’t have a legal right to marry anyone, celestially or legally, why do you think they went across state lines??
    Third, Anyone who coerces, threatens another person, to do something they DON’T want to do is against the law!
    Fourth, Elissa ask Rulon and Warren release her from the marriage with Allen, and they said, NO!! The only way she could get out of the marriage was adultry!
    Now, how damn sad is that!

  229. Settings for July 23:

    995 The State of Texas VS Merril Leroy Jessop Status Conf. E.Nichols/N.Calfas
    1000 The State of Texas VS Lehi Barlow Jeffs aka
    Lehi Barlow Allred Status Conf. E.Nichols/B.Hudson
    1002 The State of Texas VS Abram Harker Jeffs Status Conf. E.Nichols/S.Goodman
    1004 The State of Texas VS Keith William Dutson, Jr. Status Conf. E.Nichols/D.Rogers

    994 The State of Texas VS Merril Leroy Jessop PT Conf. E.Nichols/N.Calfas
    999 The State of Texas VS Raymond Merril Jessop PT Conf. E.Nichols/M.Stevens
    1001 The State of Texas VS Lehi Barlow Jeffs aka
    Lehi Barlow Allred PT Conf. E.Nichols/B.Hudson
    1003 The State of Texas VS Abram Harker Jeffs PT Conf. E.Nichols/S.Goodman
    1013 The State of Texas VS Wendell Loy Nielsen PT Conf. E.Nichols/K.Schaffer
    1014 The State of Texas VS Wendell Loy Nielsen PT Conf. E.Nichols/K.Schaffer
    1015 The State of Texas VS Wendell Loy Nielsen PT Conf. E.Nichols/K.Schaffer
    1016 The State of Texas VS Frederick Merril Jessop PT Conf. E.Nichols/A.Hennington

  230. deputydawg you need to wash your mouth out with soap.
    He was 1st cousin half removed, thus no incest charges.

    I’ve been married for 15 years, there have been occasions when she didn’t want to have sex with me but gave in to my pestering, and vice versa. I suppose we are both guilty of sexual assault.
    What my wife and I are guilty of is pretty much the equivalent of Allen Steed’s culpability.

    Remember, Allen Steed is not guilty of rape as he hasn’t been tried. Unless he plea bargains, I doubt he will ultimately be convicted of sexual assault.

    Of course, you and the others have to convince yourselves he is guilty in order to quell your conscience so i understand why you feel as you do.

  231. so is raymond’s charges stemming from janet jeffs and leroy’s from leann jeffs?

    where are allen keate and the others. there are only 7 men listed as having conferences.

  232. With respect to the crime of rape, Elissa could give consent, that is the instructions given to the jury.

    She could have gotten out merely by leaving and emailing Allen and Warren Jeffs what her intentions were. She visited her relatives in Oregon before she left for good, why didn’t she stay? Much of her family had already left, obviously it wasn’t as if she had no place to go…Oregon anyone?

    Later

  233. Nevermind, here are the rest, on August 10:

    991 The State of Texas VS Raymond Merril Jessop PTH E.Nichols/A.Goodwin/M.Stevens
    992 The State of Texas VS Allan Eugene Keate PTH E.Nichols/A.Goodwin/R.Wilson
    993 The State of Texas VS Michael Emack PTH E.Nichols/A.Goodwin/R.Wilson
    998 The State of Texas VS Michael George Emack PTH E.Nichols/A.Goodwin/R.Wilson
    1018 The State of Texas VS Leroy Johnson Steed PTH E.Nichols/A.Goodwin/R.Wilson
    1019 The State of Texas VS Leroy Johnson Steed PTH E.Nichols/A.Goodwin/R.Wilson
    1020 The State of Texas VS Leroy Johnson Steed PTH E.Nichols/A.Goodwin/R.Wilson

  234. “If Allen was not FLDS, most would not consider him guilty of rape.”

    Who is this “most” of which you speak? While I am sympathetic to Allen’s simple minded following of his Prophet, he IS guilty of being a rapist. Yeah, he seems like a basically decent guy who bought into the FLDS tenet that women are second class citizens with no rights to “own” their own bodies.

    And it has been pointed out to you countless times that whether or not Allen is found guilty of Rape, it won’t change Warren’s conviction. He has been found guilty — he IS guilty — and Allen’s case is completely separate to it.

  235. Hey if Allen somehow is let off because he was only following his prophets directions I think Warren should also be charged with the rape of Allen.

  236. “Remember, Allen Steed is not guilty of rape as he hasn’t been tried. Unless he plea bargains, I doubt he will ultimately be convicted of sexual assault.”

    Duane, forgive us for taking him at his word when he confessed on the stand. He said he was guilty, therefor the average human accepts that he’s probably guilty. Granted, your twisted rules for “consent” make you an exception, but you hardly speak for “most” people.

    “She could have gotten out merely by leaving and emailing Allen and Warren Jeffs what her intentions were. She visited her relatives in Oregon before she left for good, why didn’t she stay?”

    Perhaps because she was still a kid and not in a good position to make good choices? Gosh you’re hypercritical of a young girl in a really bad place, aren’t you. What, in your world rape isn’t rape it’s just “surprise sex”?

  237. What on earth is a “first cousin, half removed”?

    T. and I share grandparents; thus we are first cousins. I am her son’s first cousin, once removed. My children are his second cousins.

    Even in the twisted genealogy of the FLDS, a “half-removed” cousin is impossible.

    If I were Allen Steed’s lawyer, I’d try for a claim of diminished responsibility.

  238. duane, I know what pliggy says, and of course pliggys word is god right?
    But in the transcripts from the trial, it very clearly states allen steed was elissa walls first cousin!

  239. duane you seem to be callous or unaware that Elissa had two miscarriages during her marital bliss with Allen Glade Steed. Married at 14 years of age to your first cousin and pregnant. You wanted to know why she staid? What was she physically or financially able to do duane. Allen after the first miscarriage got her pregnant for a second miscarriage.

  240. Psych 101: “Victims of sexual abuse often act out sexually during and after the abuse.”

    Compassionate people understand that and aren’t judgmental.

    Aren’t Steed’s and Wall’s mothers sisters? That would make them cousins all right.

  241. duane,

    yes, I think anyone who tells a 14 year old that they are married (when they are not) and then has sex with her is a rapist, whether or not they are in the FLDS. Oddly, the law agrees with me. If he gets off on statute of limitations technicalities, that does not mean he’s innocent, it just means he can’t be prosecuted. If a woman has sex with someone else years after her rape, it does not make the rape go away. There is no ‘you can’t rape an adulteress’ clause in the law, nor is there a “she’s grown up now so it can’t be rape, right?” clause.

  242. My daughter came home one day as a freshman from high school and said that her good friend (who was/is frequently in our house) had been sexually abused by her grandfather and that her mother did not believe her.

    Duane would have said:

    tell your friend to leave and email her Mom that she was leaving

    Wonder where she was supposed to go?

    The next thing my daughter said: Her mom doesn’t believe her because she thinks she is having/had sex with her boyfriend and is lying about the sex.

    Here is what Duane would have said: Oh right forget the email. She is lying. No wait she isn’t lying she is teasing and jailbait.

    My daughter then asked me: Would you believe me?

    Duane would say: No – all teenage girls are jailbait for men

    My daughter was very very concerned about whether I would believe her if she had been sexually assaulted. Her concern was not about her friend because…

    The end of the story is that the friend did not want to move out as she loves her younger sister and mom, but the step dad threw her out. So, fortunately, for her, the father lived in the same town and could provide a home for her (I phrase it that way because the home was definitely multitude of “steps down”). The story came to me after all of the legal action was in place including charges of molestation to the local authorities via the school intervention. The mom, step-dad, and daughters had been living in a rental home owned by granddad free – The young lady kept a relationship with her mother and sister and all of her high school friends and teachers – all of which were enormously important to her. She also kept a relationship with her grandmother. She could take her pet to her father’s.

    The young lady has just graduated from college with a degree in jazz vocals and moved to NYC to try her wings.

  243. Maybe ‘half removed’ indicates the relationship between children of sister wives. Half brother…half cousin….half removed? No, it’s not in my dictionary, either.

  244. duane skinwalker is up to his normal tricks. Rationalize the issue to make the predators; warren and allen, look innocent while making the young female victims look guilty. She could have run away. It was all her fault, etc. Predator men have been doing that for centuries. Fortunately that thinking is becoming out dated except for a few extreme male chauvinists like deci and the flds leadership

  245. Betty

    Agreed, today wew cuff and stuff these creepy perps. And will continue to do so in the future.

    Its a dangerous game they play. Time-outs are Loooong.

  246. I believe that Allan and Elissa’s mothers were half sisters, hence the “half removed” and there was no blood relation between the two, or that it was not close enough blood relation to violate the incest laws. I’m not postitive of this, but I think that’s why the incest charges were dropped.

  247. Anon @ 7:16

    I take no offense. You have to understand lawyers. Lawyers don’t just have a job, they have a duty to protect their clients. Arguing statute of limitations is not a “technicality.” It is a jurisdictional issue that would prevent the state from even charging someone with a crime.

    The argument about Gary Engles is a stretch, but again you need to understand the give and take in the criminal law process. Allen’s lawyers apparently have been trying to reach a plea bargain agreement with the prosecutors. Since we’re not privy to the negotiations, you really don’t know exactly if anyone is really being a sleeze ball here. My professional two cents is that the case against Allen is pretty weak. I also tend to think that the prosecutors are none too pleased that Allen testified for Jeffs and are possibly out for a little blood here.

    So, I don’t see Allen’s lawyer as a sleeze ball. He knows his client faces the real possibility of serious jail time and is trying to get some deal to avoid that. Apparently negotiations have broken down and they’re going to have to resolve it inside the courtroom rather than out.

  248. Is Elissa the youngest girl in her family? If not, then why haven’t the child protection authorities stepped in and removed any of her younger sisters?

    One of the things that bothers me about the Steed-Wall case is that Elissa’s parents seem to have avoided any responsibility for their part in creating this train wreck.

  249. I’m with you on that, Ron. Her step father was mostly responsible in my mind, but her mother made the dress – we have pictures.

  250. There were never any incest charges made in Utah; it was the Arizona case against Warren where there were incest charges.

    Those incest charges were dropped because Arizona law says incest can only occur when the victims are 18 or older. Elissa was under 18, so no incest according to the law. Screwy law, but I guess it was written that way to protect children from going to jail for messing around with their relatives. Ya know, kids just “experimenting” with their siblings, cousins, etc.

    Allen and Elissa have the same grandfather, Newell Steed. They are first cousins of the half-blood. Their mothers were half-siblings. Same father, Newell Steed but different mothers. Like this really makes a difference. They still have related DNA and if she had a full-term baby it would still have been inbreeding.

  251. Elissa does have either one or two younger sisters, and one wanted to leave with Elissa or have Elissa come and get her, but she states in her book that her mom has been in that group all her life and totally believes in the principle((s) they live by and would not leave.

    I think she filed a report to find out where they were living and they finally did show up at the authorities office but were very evasive about where they lived and they were accompanied by the men as well at the time of questioning.

  252. Duane brings in some interesting points. Points that would be posed to a jury. If she was supposedly getting raped why did it take almost 4 years before she decide to leave him? A lot of you may not buy that argument but remember, it takes 12 members of a jury in unanimous agreement to convict. That is, if it even makes it to a jury. The statute of limitations may have ran out.

  253. Ron, Elissa is not the youngest daughter. She has 2 younger sisters in the FLDS about whom she is concerned. She fears that the same thing might happen to them – being married off underage against their will.

    As far as your comment about her parents not being charged for this crime, all I can say is “Welcome to Utah”.

    Her father, Lloyd Wall, had been kicked out of the FLDS before all of this happened. It was her mother, Sharon Wall, who went along with the idea of her 14-year-old little girl marrying her 1st cousin. Sharon helped coerce Elissa into doing this against her will. Sharon helped make Elissa’s wedding dress. Sharon went to Caliente, Nevada for the ceremony. Sharon is also an accomplice to the rape of Elissa. Sharon will probably never be charged for her part in this crime.

  254. Tell me where a 14yr old girl would go if she left? How would she leave? Even after her marriage, she tried unsuccessfully to get a release. Remeber we are talking about a minor whose reasoning hasn’t even fully developed yet. Everyone in the town was FLDS, including the Sheriff, all the officers, everyone in city government was Flds. Its a two hour DRIVE to the closest city.
    Elissa’s sister even went to Warren and Rulon about Elissa being married, but did no good.
    When ever adult you know with the exception of one or two OTHER women who are against the marriage says, “this is the lord’s will”, what do you think a child is going to do?
    We saw Jane Blackmore’s notes on Elissa Walls medical and mental state. We saw where she wrote because of this,its probable Elissa had a miscarriage.

  255. Alinusara10:
    “If she was supposedly getting raped why did it take almost 4 years before she decide to leave him?”

    No one here is disputing she was RAPED, several times over, and she had no idea what sex was. She just knew she was being “forced” to participate in a sex act that she wanted no part of.

    And no, Duane does not bring up any interesting points, if you and duane would EVER read the books you would know why it took 4 years.
    She was 14!
    Her whole life revolved around this group, their teachings and her family. Her family had already been ripped apart, when her mother was reassigned and she genuinely worried about how her mother would take it if she did leave. She was living in a truck, sleeping in a desert so she would not have to go home and HAVE SEX.

    I hope those points do come out to the jury. We will see just whose story they believe, the dumb boy following his prophet or the girl that was raped starting at the age of 14, when she was married against her will and forced to have sex!

  256. Anon wrote: ” Sharon Walls will probably never be charged for her part in this crime.”

    That is crazy. Barbara Jessop should face aiding and abetting charges as well as for harboring a fugitive. Will no one hold these people, men and women, responsible for their crimes??

  257. Tell me where a 14yr old girl would go if she left? How would she leave?
    ==============================================================
    All it take is 4 buttons on a phone. 9, 9, 1, Enter. If she had the freedom to run around with other guys on him, she most certainly had the freedom to have one of those guys drive her to the nearest pay phone.

  258. “She could have gotten out merely by leaving and emailing Allen and Warren Jeffs what her intentions were”

    Careful, Duane, you just showed your I.Q. level.

  259. She did not have freedom to run around, she was in the desert, when her potential husband found her and helped her with her truck.

    She was not running around and quit questioning the character of a rape victim on this blog that was 14 when it began. And those 911 buttons, dearie, led to their police force who would have taken her straight back to Allen. Not to safety.

  260. Will no one hold these people, men and women, responsible for their crimes??
    ================================================
    Because the crimes are impossible to prove. Barbara may have had knowledge Warren was on the ranch but if he didn’t enter their home then she cannot be held with actively aiding and abetting him.

  261. And those 911 buttons, dearie, led to their police force who would have taken her straight back to Allen.
    =====================================================
    And yet, she magically found a way to leave Allen after 4 years with a police force tracking her every movement?

  262. Are you going to ignore that in this very very close cult community they wouldn’t have known their prophet was there? You think Warren went and closeted himself up there so no one would see him?

    He wants their adoration, their obedience, their acknowledgment, he lives for it.
    That is what power is all about.
    He’s been hungering for that power since he was a boy. And he was a master planner in getting it. Too bad the Barlow boys didn’t realize the baby snake was the most dangerous of all. He sure “bit ” them, now didn’t he?

  263. Are you going to ignore that in this very very close cult community they wouldn’t have known their prophet was there? You think Warren went and closeted himself up there so no one would see him?
    =========================================================
    But my friend, seeing a fugitive on the run and not reporting him is not aiding and abetting him. It could be consider aiding and abetting him if the 1700 acre ranch was a single household but we already heard the 3rd CoA say it wasn’t.

  264. No, I don’t believe they were tracking her, that is not what I said. I said they would have returned her if she had contacted them.

    Big difference.

    And it wasn’t “magical” when she left him, because who she really left was her family. Her mom. Her sisters. I think she could have cared less about “leaving Allen” and I think she would have done it “much sooner” had she still not had family there with the knowledge that she would probably never see them again.

  265. Well , who cares about Barbara aiding and abetting?

    If I was Barbara, I would be much more concerned about the women whose children she has abused and one day they might give her a taste of her own medicine.

    Barbara looks out for Barbara and Merrill. Those are her first priorities. Her children came in dead last. That’s why they were eating pasta with watered down tomato sauce while her & Merrill were eating out every night. She never took care of her own children much less her sister-wives children.

  266. It’s possible. Well I’m not going to force her mom and her sisters to contact her if they don’t want to. If they do, then more power to them.

  267. If I was Barbara, I would be much more concerned about the women whose children she has abused
    —————————————————-
    I haven’t seen Barbara convicted, let alone charged with child abuse.
    —————————————————
    ….her & Merrill were eating out every night.
    —————————————————
    Which restaurants(s) did they go to? Do you have copies of receipts?

  268. Barbara Jessop stood right there with Merrianne while Merril Jessop performed the marriage ceremony between Warren Jeffs . Merrianne was 12yrs old Alinusara!!
    Barbara Jessop is as guilty as Merril or Warren!
    She should be convicted of neglect!

  269. Alin wrote “All it take is 4 buttons on a phone. 9, 9, 1, Enter”

    Now that’s just plain lying, I’m sorry, but that’s so far into ignoring the facts that I can’t see it as anything but a lie.

    One of the girls who is testifying against Tony Alamo did just that and CPS returned her to her parents (who said she was a habitual liar) and her parents returned her to Alamo.

    The FLDS police department members have THEMSELVES admitted that they took calls of abuse to the Bishop, not to the normal authorities. The police/sheriffs have been removed from office for doing exactly that. Calling 911 in Short Creek is a good way to end up in hot water with the priesthood, not to get help against them.

  270. Yes Merrianne could of called 911, and it would or rang in the local sheriffs office , good ole Sam Barlow would of answered.

  271. Alin wrote “But my friend, seeing a fugitive on the run and not reporting him is not aiding and abetting him. ”

    How about if you loaned him your car? How about if you sent him an envelope full of money with a note addressed to him and dated? (Those were found in the Escalade.) What if you kept a property you owned ready as a safe house at his request and let some of his ‘wives’ wait there for him?

  272. Fact is Elissa Wall didn’t Want to get Married period!! Fact is she was FORCED not only by her mother,but the guy in charge!
    Not only that, but FLDS knew it was illegal, so they took these girls across STATE lines to marry them.. thats called Trafficking!

  273. This is a fascinating article about today’s testimony in the Tony Alamo trial. The amazing thing is that this woman was called by the defense!

    http://www.nwanews.com/adg/News/264918/

    What I want to bring to your attention is the number of children Arkansas believes are endangered—128, which may or may not include the 36 kids already in state custody.

    Also note the mother interviewed at the end, who is searching for her missing three children.

  274. Read the book “Escape”, I believe it will answer all your questions, Ali. I am not sure Carolyn ever named the restaurant they went to every night, don’t think they told her the name. They just came home on the week-ends.

    You know it would be a great discussion on your part, if you would blindly quit accepting they are innocent of everything and acknowledge what they have done.

    But that’s the point, isn’t it? You read nothing, research nothing, just make blind assumptions and then question us on our knowledge from we have learned….. I think we have stated our position many times over.

  275. alin is as bad as duane at rationalization to find the flds men innocent. That is probably why she, is it really a she?? refuses to read, study, do research. When someone brought up Rulon Jeff’s name alins response was that she had never heard of him. Don’t drive drunk, don’t post in ignorance.

  276. A judge has interrupted the sex-crimes trial of evangelist Tony Alamo to give his lawyers a chance to talk him out of testifying.

    The 74-year-old pastor has told reporters he wants to speak with jurors directly, but his legal team has recommended against it. Defense lawyers sought a break until 1 p.m. Wednesday and planned to meet with their client.
    ********************************
    Let the perverted old bastard testify! It will make it twice as easy to convict him!

  277. Alin, Elisa had to work up to leaving her family. And the only way she was really able to leave is that her boyfriend had resources outside and could negociate the outside better than she could.

  278. Bill M “Free the Children” gleefully reports that those “old hags” were with “dollar signs in their eyes” complaining about something 25 years ago have failed to prove the Tony Alamo case and that he will go free. According to Bill M the authorities are doing nothing more than indicting a grilled cheese sandwich.

    Will he retract when Alamo goes away forever?

  279. HA!!! seems Judge Beecham was a little PISSED at attorney Bradshaw in the Allen Steed hearing yesterday..

    Despite a scheduled “special setting” for the resolution, attorneys said they had not yet agreed on an anticipated plea bargain and admitted they had failed to notify the court ahead of time of their impasse, something that clearly irked Judge G. Rand Beacham.

    “I’m not really interested in tap dancing around for another two years,” Beacham said. “After two years and a special setting for resolution, I’m being told, ‘Nah, never mind.'”

    Beacham repeatedly challenged defense attorney Jim Bradshaw to explain why his motion to continue the hearing should not be regarded as an attempt to waste the court’s time.

    “It sounds like you don’t really know what your motion’s going to be,” Beacham said. “I’m trying to get some substance, to see if you know what the motion will be,” he said during an exchange that lasted about 10 minutes. “Or if you’re just blowing smoke.”

  280. AMAZING Coincidence?

    http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20090722/NEWS01/907220336&referrer=FRONTPAGECAROUSEL

    The photo of Jeffs in the Allen Steed article is very similar to the photo at the top of texasflds.wordpress.com

    Also, missing from Brooks SPIN, is this refrain:

    “Despite a scheduled “special setting” for the resolution, attorneys said they had not yet agreed on an anticipated plea bargain and admitted they had failed to notify the court ahead of time of their impasse, something that clearly irked Judge G. Rand Beacham.

    “I’m not really interested in tap dancing around for another two years,” Beacham said. “After two years and a special setting for resolution, I’m being told, ‘Nah, never mind.'”

    Beacham repeatedly challenged defense attorney Jim Bradshaw to explain why his motion to continue the hearing should not be regarded as an attempt to waste the court’s time.

    “It sounds like you don’t really know what your motion’s going to be,” Beacham said. “I’m trying to get some substance, to see if you know what the motion will be,” he said during an exchange that lasted about 10 minutes. “Or if you’re just blowing smoke.”

  281. This is the way we should treat MEN who abuse children.

    San Antonio man who helped his then-girlfriend try to sell her 5-year-old daughter for sex to an FBI informant posing as a pedophile will spend the next three decades in prison.

    On Tuesday, Senior U.S. District Judge Harry Lee Hudspeth gave Sean Michael Block the mandatory minimum sentence — 30 years — ordered by Congress for the crime.

    Block could have faced up to life in prison, although sentencing guidelines recommended no more than 405 months. The judge also gave him 20 years for a separate child-porn charge and 10 years of federal supervision on both counts, and ordered the sentences to run concurrently.

    In a long, tearful statement, Block apologized to his family, his ex-wife and his young daughter for “this unimaginable nightmare” and sleepless nights “I have put them through because of my selfishness and my arrogance.”

    Saying he was addicted to adult pornography, Block explained he did not get help and his fixation led him to act out in his relationships and get involved in the affair. He apologized to the judge, prosecutors Tracy Braun and Sarah Wannarka and FBI agents for the disturbing images and messages they had to watch or read.

    Block, 40, was convicted in May of helping arrange for Jennifer Richards, 25, to try to sell her 5-year-old daughter for a used car and an apartment. He also was convicted of distributing child pornography for sending Richards links to such Web sites.

    Block, married to a woman who bore him a daughter, had an affair with Richards that delved into kink, dominance, submission and sexual role-playing. The trial evidence included text messages, computer chats and e-mails Block exchanged with Richards that discussed fantasies about sex with young girls, including Richards’ 5-year-old and 10-month-old daughters.
    ****************************
    Lock them UP and throw away the KEY!

  282. Brooke was not at the hearing yesterday. She wrote her story without personally knowing what happened in the hearing.

  283. DD and stamp: Thanks for the additional information from the Spectrum. It brings a new element into the situation that Brooke’s article does not have. Surprise?? Not Really.

  284. I’m sick of Brooke. She is so biased in her stories. You would think she is one of them.

    Maybe she should buy a house next door to Wee Willie so she can get all the latest scoops.

    Maybe she should use her journalism skills to find out about the little boy in the picture with a black eye in Willie’s house.

    Maybe she should use her journalism skills to find Ruby.

  285. I would like someone from a newspaper in Utah to investigate Mark Shurtleff, and some of the law enforcement in Flds areas. I would like to know what kind of a sweet deal they offered to Shurtleff to sell his soul to the devil!

  286. The defense rested in the Alamo trial without Alamo managing to get around his lawyers to take the stand. I wonder if they duct-taped his mouth shut.

    Is it possible the case will go to the jury today?

  287. GFNY , I hope to God they find him guilty!! They were presenting closing arguements earlier, and Judge was giving instructions to the Jury

  288. Alamo is toast. It’s rather funny that they had to take a break for his lawyers to talk this narcissistic sociopath out of digging his grave deeper.

    I have a number of questions about his case. First, where were the Arkansas authorities? Second, if the feds can get Alamo behind bars, why aren’t they more active in getting all the Mann act violations committed by the FLDS into court?

    You guys know I have a very hard time with tin hat foil theories. I haven’t found a satisfactory explanation of why the clear Mann act violation in the Elissa Wall case has not been prosecuted. In addition, I haven’t found a satisfactory explanation of why several people clearly harboring a fugitive (Warren Jeffs) haven’t been charged.

  289. Ron, look first to the AG office in Utah! You have a AG who is wishy washy on this WHOLE case. Last year when Sen Reid wanted a federal task force to investigate, who scremed the loudest NOT to have a federal task force? Answer: Mark Shurtleff, in fact it trully pissed him off, said there was NO need for a federal task force, blah blah blah.

    Now as far as a federal investigation in Texas, seem AG and LE have remained very closed on that question.

  290. And what about IRS,why aren’t they investigating the Corportation set up by Flds for taxes, they are NOT tax exempt. Flds are runing companies right on that ranch!

  291. Judge Griffin in El Dorado, whose son owns an oil company, had Flds build him a new building, does ANYONE know if they charged Griffin Oil any Sales Tax on the work they did???

  292. How about if you loaned him your car? How about if you sent him an envelope full of money with a note addressed to him and dated? (Those were found in the Escalade.) What if you kept a property you owned ready as a safe house at his request and let some of his ‘wives’ wait there for him?
    ==========================================================
    That would do it Betty, but I haven’t seen any evidence that Barbara did these things.

  293. But that’s the point, isn’t it? You read nothing, research nothing, just make blind assumptions and then question us on our knowledge from we have learned….. I think we have stated our position many times over.
    ========================================================
    Aye, and I stated my position many times over when your position has been legally and factually insufficiant.

  294. My position has NEVER been legally or factually insufficient, and if you see it that way, it’s only because you do no research or reading on your part. You argue what if’s . I don’t .

    I argue what I have read and learned and researched. I don’t call any of the survivors liars by not believing what they say and I don’t question the character of rape victims.

  295. I don’t call any of the survivors liars by not believing what they say
    =====================================================
    So if you was a member of a jury with a sworn duty to weigh the evidence you would take a nap until you was waken to render a verdict of guilty?
    =====================================================
    I don’t question the character of rape victims.
    =====================================================
    Depends on the situation I suppose. If a suspected victim of rape showed false I.D to get into a bar then later went home with a friend she met, I certainly would question if statutory rape applies in this case. I would question why a suspected rape victim stayed with the supposed perpetrator for a period of time when she could easily have escaped.

  296. The same damn reason lots of abused wives stay with abusive husbands alinusara, because of threats from the abuser, that if they leave they will be killed. Or in Flds case, if they left, to the family they are DEAD! No family communications from that point on, and of course then you have to deal with the fact, the abused is told they are damned if they leave.
    Many women in secular society took abuse as long as they could and LEFT, and ended up DEAD by the husband who warned her before she left, “You leave , Ill hunt you down and kill you”

  297. And “IF” you read the bishops list Alinusara, there were women in “houses of hiding”. Those are places of punishment for women who don’t obey!

  298. Well, Alinusara you seem to have forgotten that Barbara was on the witness stand and plead the 5th Amendment over 50+ times when her involvement and testimony was examined. She has every right to use this plea but it sure doesn’t shine any light on her innocence now does it? In fact during the pending San Angelo GJ indictments the witnesses called to the stand are going to either testify to their truth or plead the 5th Amendment, just like Barbara did and some indictees will suffer from a lack of corroborating witnesses or those wirnesses testimony(s) may be thrown out, just like in the current Tony Alamo trial. Seems to be a vicious circle trying to have it both ways all of the time but the witness stand and Jury box/Judge’s bench can get at the Truth.

  299. The same damn reason lots of abused wives stay with abusive husbands alinusara
    =====================================================
    Actually you bring up an interesting point. It appears that the prosecution deliberately let the statute of limitation run out. I’ve read that Melissa likes Allen, though they was incompatible as a couple, and wasn’t willing to persue charges against him. It appears that the statute of limitations was allowed to ezpire as a sort of quid pro quo for her testifying against Warren.

  300. Well, Alinusara you seem to have forgotten that Barbara was on the witness stand and plead the 5th Amendment over 50+ times when her involvement and testimony was examined.
    =====================================================
    I’m aware of her previous pleas and it’s why Merrianne is in foster care now.
    ======================================================
    She has every right to use this plea but it sure doesn’t shine any light on her innocence now does it?
    =====================================================
    I’m unaware of her being charged with a crime.
    =====================================================
    Who said I wasn’t for the truth being examined as long as it is legally obtained and presented to a jury?

  301. PS: NOTICED a twitter:

    “The Utah Attorney General’s Office has forwarded the check for $192,600 from the FLDS as ordered last week. 1 day ago”

    WOW!!

    Tony Alamo, the FLDS, and Mark Shurtleff all getting OWNED in one week!

    Is it Christmas?

  302. BTW Ali, no, the statute of limitations hasnt run out, yes she did report it to LE within the proper time, no, it wont be thrown out for that even though they will try.

    I dont think its a weak case at all, its pretty strong JMHO.

    And BTW, just because tons of crimes out there arent prosecuted, doesnt mean the ones that ARE prosecuted wont be successful.

    Look where Warren eats breakfast lunch and dinner every day.

  303. Alinusara10 said this on July 22, 2009 at 5:51 PM

    It appears that the prosecution deliberately let the statute of limitation run out. I’ve read that Melissa likes Allen, though they was incompatible as a couple, and wasn’t willing to persue charges against him.

    FIRST – the prosecutor did not delay this case. It is a legal issue of whether the rapes of Elissa – which started when she was ONLY 14 years old – were reported to law enforcement before the statute of limitations had passed. These crimes had to be reported within 4 years of when it happened. The prosecutor – who WANTS to prosecute Allen – thinks the rapes were reported within the statue of limitations; the defense lawyer says no. That will probably have to be argued in court for Judge Beacham to decide.

    SECONDLY – Her name is Elissa – starts with an “E” – not Melissa with an “M”. If you bothered to do a little research on the FLDS, you would have known this.

    THIRDLY – Elissa despises Allen. That is one of the reasons why she begged not to marry him. He had been quite a bully towards her for years and she couldn’t even stand to be in the same room with him. He had teased and taunted her for years. He was very cruel to her! So can you imagine being a 14-year-old naive little girl and living in a remote, isolated religious community – who had been taught all her life to fear and distrust outsiders – and you are told that you are going to have to marry your 1st cousin – WHOM YOU DESPISE? And you beg and you plead not to have to marry him, but no one listens and no one cares. So you HAVE to marry him because there is no way out, except suicide. And Elissa tried that, but it didn’t work. And you do marry him – sobbing and shaking during the ceremony – you marry a man you can’t stand the sight of. And then he forces you to have sex with him – against your will. OMG I just can’t imagine anything worse.

    If you bothered to do a little research on the FLDS, you would have known this, too.

    LASTLY – I am finally going to stop reading your posts. It’s too tiring. I am now in agreement with many of the other posters that you get on this blog and you don’t know what you are talking about half the time. And it’s obvious that you refuse to learn about it so you can carry on a knowledgeable conversation. So from here out I’m just passing by your posts.

  304. I have a question for you ali-oop, over on brooke’s blaugh you posted regarding pervert Tony Alamo:

    ***
    Really Ali? REALLY?

    So far there have been 36 children removed from the parents in this group, including the children from these women whom plead the fifth.
    ==============================================================
    Aye my friend and that is the crux of the problem. None of these children have admitted to abuse and there is no evidence to be found that these children have been abused
    ***

    and

    ***
    Alinusara10 says:
    July 22, 2009 at 5:07 pm

    Under age children cant give consent – it doesnt matter what they say.

    You got that, right?
    ====================================================
    Yes my friend but that isn’t the thrust of my argument. My argument is that the videos I’ve viewed showed girls testifying that they had no inappropriate contact with Tony Alamo; consensual or otherwise.
    ***

    Back up your claims, give links to any of these childern claiming that and the “video’s” you have “SEEN”. There is a court ordered gag order for anything to do with the children in state custody so unless you work for the prosecutors office or are employeed by Ark. CPS or CASA you are again making things up or just flat out lying.

  305. Who the F*** is Melissa??? Alinusara, you don’t even know That it’s not Melissa, but Elissa.
    And she despised Allen Steed!! He called her name from the time she was little. And she damn sure didn’t want to marry him.

  306. Ali, ya still dont think Alamo was a child molester? You going to wait till he serves 20 years and then admits to it in a bid to get probation, or what?

    ————————-

    “If convicted, he faces up to 10 years in prison and a $250,000 on each count.

    COUNT ONE

    Prosecutors allege that Alamo had sex with Jane Doe No. 1, now 17, while they traveled on his private bus to California in September 2004, when she was 13. She said Alamo “married” her at age 11. She currently lives in Colorado.

    COUNT TWO

    The indictment accuses Alamo of having sex with Jane Doe No. 1 after she traveled from Colorado to California to Arkansas between August and October 2005 on the minister’s orders. Prosecutors say she was 14 at the time.

    COUNTS THREE and FOUR

    Prosecutors say Jane Doe No. 2 was “married” to Alamo at age 8 and was soon molested. They claim that she had traveled to her parents’ home in Oklahoma in May or June 2000 and again in March or April 2001 and was summoned back to Arkansas by Alamo for sex. She is now 18 and told jurors that child-welfare officials helped her find a job in Arkansas.

    COUNT FIVE

    Authorities say Alamo “married” Jane Doe No. 3 while he was in prison in 1998, when she was 14. They say she was sexually assaulted by Alamo, then was sent to Oklahoma by him to allay her father’s fears that she was living with the evangelist. Prosecutors say she later returned to Arkansas, where Alamo had sex with her. She is now 25.

    COUNT SIX

    Alamo is accused of ordering Jane Doe No. 3 to travel to Nashville, Tenn. Authorities say that around the time of the trip, in early 1999, Alamo was having sexual contact with the girl.

    COUNT SEVEN

    Prosecutors say Alamo “married” Jane Doe No. 4 when she was 15 and that he was having sex with her in the spring of 1994. They say that around that time, she traveled on a motor home with Alamo toward California. The trip was cut off abruptly and the motor home returned to Arkansas. She is now 33 and lives in Florida.

    COUNT EIGHT

    The indictment says Alamo brought Jane Doe No. 4 with him to West Virginia in April or May 1994, when he was having sex with her. Alamo had traveled there on a custody matter involving an ex-wife.

    COUNT NINE

    Authorities say Alamo had sex with Jane Doe No. 4 in Memphis, Tenn., while he was on trial for tax evasion in federal court in late spring 1994.

    COUNT TEN

    Prosecutors say Jane Doe No. 5 and Jane Doe No. 4 flew from Arkansas to California, where Jane Doe No. 5 was sexually assaulted by Alamo. She was 16 then and is 20 now.”

    Read more:

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/07/22/state/n163336D38.DTL&type=politics#ixzz0M2Fe8P9D

  307. Breaking news update

    TEXARKANA, Ark.

    — A woman who says she was “married” to evangelist Tony Alamo at age 8 is telling jurors that her parents worked against her when she tried to obtain help from social workers after leaving the minister’s Arkansas compound.

    The woman, now 18, said Friday that she drifted around the country after leaving the sect at age 15. Under cross-examination at Alamo’s sex-crimes trial, she said she tried to enter foster care in New Mexico but that her parents prevented it.

    She said her parents are prominent figures in Alamo’s ministry and they told New Mexico officials that she was a liar.
    Alamo is charged with taking five young girls across state lines for sex. The 74-year-old could spend the rest of his life in prison if convicted.

    THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP’s earlier story is below.

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j7JRsIm1DgSBIfIFSL3D_fjT1HmwD99G9PV01

  308. Anomynous: I agree that it is time to quickly pass over ali’s posts. On the SLT comment board you can put her on ignore user list. On this blog we just have to quickly scroll down and not really read anything she or he posts.

    How long has Elissa Walls been a public figure and Ali still doesn’t know her name. ROFL!!!~

  309. You guys know I have a very hard time with tin hat foil theories. I haven’t found a satisfactory explanation of why the clear Mann act violation in the Elissa Wall case has not been prosecuted. In addition, I haven’t found a satisfactory explanation of why several people clearly harboring a fugitive (Warren Jeffs) haven’t been charged.

    Ron in Houston said this on July 22, 2009 at 4:06 PM

    Ron I want to know how Warren was placed on the FBI Most Wanted List in the first place.

    Someone higher up in the federal government wanted Warren out of the way, but the raid at the YFZ happened, and all the evidence they where trying to coverup by putting Warren away, almost saw the light of day by being exposed by the raid.

    But this is my conspiracy theory.

  310. This is good!

    “TEXARKANA –

    Under questioning Tuesday at evangelist Tony Alamo’s trial, the wife of a fugitive described by authorities as Alamo’s “enforcer” invoked her right not to incriminate herself. As she left the courtroom, she was served with documents from child welfare authorities seeking protective custody of her four children.

    Jennifer Kolbeck, whose husband, John, is wanted in the beating of a teenage church member, was one of five members of the Tony Alamo Christian Ministries who took the witness stand Tuesday to defend Alamo, who is charged with taking five underage girls across state lines for sex.”

    http://www.nwanews.com/adg/News/264918/

  311. Kinda like Warren’s enforcer, Willie the Weep!

  312. Alamo’s jury begins deliberation tomorrow at 8:30 AM. I predict guilty verdicts on all counts at 10:15 AM.

  313. Actually GFNY I think the jury will get jury instructions first thing in the AM and that usually takes at least an hour or so in a case like this with so many counts against him. The jury will have to come to a verdict on each of the 10 counts. I bet they won’t get started on the verdicts until around 10:00 AM and the jury won’t contact the judge (announcing that verdicts have been reached in all 10 counts) until around lunchtime.

    So, you vote for verdicts around coffee break time and I vote for around lunch time.

    Are you on?

  314. Here is a post Ali made on Bill M. site:

    Tony (Alamo) may be convicted merely because the stigma associated with child sexual abuse. I’m troubled by this case. We have girls in foster care on video tape claiming they never have been abused along with absolutely no medical evidence that these same girls have been abused, and yet, they are still in foster care.

    Btw rumor has it that TBM is taking down his site because he has the inside track on how Wathers will rule on the evidence and he is sick and tired of being proved wrong time and time again.

    Wonder what rumor Ali has that we don’t? Think s/he made it up?

  315. Yep. That is definitely not why his blog was down and hopefully it will be back soon

  316. With 10 counts I would be happy with rulings by EOD Friday.

  317. DD why would that FLDS corp changre sales ttax for work done? Isn’t the tax number so they can purchase materials and not pay tax?

  318. Looks like Tony is resigned to spending life in prison and running things whilst there – JUST LIKE WARREN!

    ===========

    (My editorial) Considering Alamo’s remarks about just believing in and following The Lord… Sounds like he’s resigned to a guilty verdict.
    19 minutes ago from web

    Asked if he’ll still run his church from prison: “Yes. Of course I will.”
    about 1 hour ago from Tweetie

    Alamo entering court says he will continue doing whatever The Lord wants him to do.
    about 1 hour ago from Tweetie

    Hoping to get TA arriving at fed courthouse live at 630 on Todays THV This AM. Stay tuned.
    about 2 hours ago from Tweetie

    Good morning, all. We’re getting ready for live hits on THV This AM @ 6 & 630. Jury degins deliberations on all 10 fed. counts at 830.
    about 3 hours ago from Tweetie

    http://twitter.com/ccrowson016

  319. Deja vu

  320. Who would have thought Warren would get such a nice Cell mate?

    LOL

    Birds of a feather! Hopefully Alamo is sentenced with that 2.5 mil fine and is forced to sell his property.

    He wont be needing it anyway!

  321. Anon, I tbought the jury was instructed last thing yesterday.

  322. Grannytoad, whether your a sole business owner, or LLC, when you do work for another company or individual, you have to add sales tax to your labor and supplies you use for each job, (unless the business or individual your doing work for is an non-profit)
    When you start a business, your issued a sales tax number, as an owner, you buy your materials to do a job without paying tax, but you pass that sales tax along to your customer to pay for work done.

  323. If I made you a dress, (as a business) I could buy the material for that dress with no tax, because I have a sales tax number. But when I finished the dress, and you paid for it, I would have to add 8.25% sales tax to your bill. That’s 8.25% sales tax goes to the state.

  324. Alamo’s jury was released to deliberate at 8:17 AM, central time.

  325. “Tony (Alamo) may be convicted merely because the stigma associated with child sexual abuse. I’m troubled by this case. We have girls in foster care on video tape claiming they never have been abused along with absolutely no medical evidence that these same girls have been abused, and yet, they are still in foster care.”

    I notice troll Ali hasn’t backed up the video claim with a link showing it. (And if he/she ever should, then where is the outcry about those poor children’s “privacy” being violated?)

    “Btw rumor has it that TBM is taking down his site because he has the inside track on how Wathers will rule on the evidence and he is sick and tired of being proved wrong time and time again.”

    lol, well, that clinches Ali’s trolldom for me. Time to scroll past and not feed the trolls. (Particularly since TBM has a far higher percentage of “right” predicitions than Bill Madpucky ever will.)

    “Wonder what rumor Ali has that we don’t? Think s/he made it up?”

    Yes, I do think he/she makes up most of his/her drivel. In fact, I think his/her drivel is so similar to Bill’s that he/she should just stay there and preach to the choir since no one is really interested in the ravings of those who think pedophiliacs and pedophile abettors should be allowed to raise their children.

  326. I have commented before on how Viagra is a player in the polygamy/underage girl problem. Most old men are not capable of constant sexual activity without the help of chemical stimulant.

    This, from Alamo’s trial:

    “During Monday’s testimony, the controversial evangelist became upset at FBI Special Agent Randall Harris. He testified that a bottle of Viagra was found in Alamo’s bathroom during the September 20th raid on the Fouke compound.

    “The prescription medication was for Tommy Scarcello, but was found in Alamo’s personal bathroom. Witnesses testified only Alamo was ever allowed to enter that bathroom…”

    http://www.todaysthv.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=88230

  327. Back up your claims, give links to any of these childern claiming that and the “video’s” you have “SEEN”. There is a court ordered gag order for anything to do with the children in state custody so unless you work for the prosecutors office or are employeed by Ark. CPS or CASA you are again making things up or just flat out lying.
    ===========================================================
    /shrug I’ve been accused of lying before. I may make minor mistakes but I never lie. http://www.inquisitionupdate.org/

  328. I’m mesmerized by this news story out of New Jersey:

    “NEWARK — N.J. Assemblyman Daniel Van Pelt and the mayors of Hoboken and Secaucus are among roughly 30 people arrested this morning in a federal corruption and money laundering probe that originated in the Syrian Jewish communities in Deal and Brooklyn…”

    This was a surprise—the mayor of Hoboken has only been in office for three weeks! We can never assume the FBI isn’t interested in the FLDS simply because they aren’t making any noise.

    Also, I’ll bet my hair shirt the rabbis arrested this morning won’t try to mount a “religious persecution” defense.

  329. Poor, poor ali-oops yet again, the site you point to with the “video” interview HAS BEEN REMOVED BY USER, (because it was a faked video??)

  330. Poor, poor ali-oops yet again, the site you point to with the “video” interview HAS BEEN REMOVED BY USER,
    =================================================
    Now you are being just plain silly. You clicked the video on the top left corner not realizing there is 6 other videos right there on the same page that are working perfectly fine.

  331. Anon, I tbought the jury was instructed last thing yesterday.

    Greetings from New York said this on July 23, 2009 at 9:29 AM

    I sure could be wrong GFNY. I thought they had closing arguments yesterday afternoon then adjourned for the day. Maybe they did also go through the jury instructions. I apologize if I got it wrong and misled anybody.

    Too bad Court TV is covering this trial; it would be a whole lot easier to follow that way.

  332. Alinusara are you a member of Alamo ministries??

    The site you gave is an anti CPS site, and of course they will have articles and video’s of people hysterical and children crying. Did you know ever abused children will cry and want to stay with abusive parents?

  333. Alinusara are you a member of Alamo ministries??
    ===========================================
    No.
    ==========================================
    Did you know ever abused children will cry and want to stay with abusive parents?
    ===========================================
    I don’t see children crying in the 5 videos I linked. Just children calmly stating that they have never been abused.

  334. No there is another one too that is removed by author.

    The video of “5” children has been removed.

    So has the one “Alamo parents speak out”

    There IS one video, a CPS? worker talking with a young girl, looks to be an hour long – the top video is an anti-american video.

    I cant hear them talking, voices are too low. Regardless, children arent the “deciders” of if they are abused, neglected or endangered.

    Not only is this a propoganda site like truthisstale.com but your precious video , well it just aint there.

  335. You want to see some of tony alamo’s wives alinusara?
    Go here, this is just a few with pictures.

    http://www.tonyalamonews.com/189/the-many-wives-of-tony-alamo.php

  336. Tom Freiss is an amatuer radio operater Alinusara, who does a radio show,about the scum of the earth, whom he supports. He is another alex jones, or gary peeler. Hell, he is probably friends with Bill Medvecky, the felon.
    At any rate, you read some of the stories of the little girls alamo married on the site I gave you, about the beatings alamo and his enforcer did to children.

  337. To be fair I clicked on the link. If the state proves its case then some of those alleged victims are legally way too young for him.

  338. Tom Freiss is an amatuer radio operater Alinusara, who does a radio show,about the scum of the earth, whom he supports. He is another alex jones, or gary peeler. Hell, he is probably friends with Bill Medvecky, the felon.
    ===================================================
    Hence why I don’t pay attention to Tom Friess only the children.
    ====================================================
    At any rate, you read some of the stories of the little girls alamo married on the site I gave you, about the beatings alamo and his enforcer did to children.
    ====================================================
    It appears that none of the children in these videos have been beaten. It brings up an interesting point. These children have been in the state custody for 9 months now and none have come forward claiming abuse.

  339. Well thanks for looking Ali and admitting that Alamo is in deep trouble, as it will be shown the “Feds” made its case.

    Just as they did with Warren. See Alamo’s wife Amy:

    Amy E. – Unofficial wife of Tony Alamo

    History: Just 13 years old when she went to Tony Alamo’s house and became a “wife”.

    ” She moved into the house with the other “wives” and was wearing a wedding ring given to her by Alamo, while he was still in prison. Many witnesses can verify that Amy has been severely beaten by Alamo on many occasions.”

  340. Tony Alamo, Warren Jeffs, and any other man never married legally ONE woman is a causing their children to be bastards.

    Origin:
    1250–1300; ME < AF bastard, ML bastardus (from 11th century), perh. < Gmc (Ingvaeonic) *bāst-, presumed var. of *bōst- marriage + OF -ard -ard, taken as signifying the offspring of a polygynous marriage to a woman of lower status, a pagan tradition not sanctioned by the church;

  341. So it seems these groups take their beliefs not from biblical terms but pagan terms.

  342. He had control over everything,” said a 30-year-old woman from Florida who left the compound after objecting to Mr. Alamo’s taking an 8-year-old “bride.”

    At times, men were ordered away from the compound and their spouses kept as another Alamo wife. Minor offenses from either gender drew beatings or starvation fasts.

    “I felt the strength of the board. I felt it on my leg. I didn’t like how it felt,” said an 18-year-old who testified that Mr. Alamo “married” her at age 8.

  343. Videos of 5 children saying that they haven’t been molested out of the over 20 children in custody do not indicate innocence for Tony Alamo. You don’t actually know, first of all, that these are geniune videos of children involved with the Tony Alamo case. (Since there are serious privacy violations in force if they ARE the actual video interviews, I tend to believe they are false.) Secondly, you don’t actually know what other video interviews might be indicating about Tony’s “wives”. What you do know for sure is that several women have testified to his inappropriate treatement of them at young ages. And I’m still waiting for the cries of the children’s privacy being violated. I mean, publishing a page in a diary was decried as horrible abuse but a privacy protected videotape of an interview into sexual abuse being plastered on the internet is just fine? More double standards.

  344. http://www.tonyalamonews.com/829/11409-radio-host-tom-friess-joins-protest-outside-the-courthouse.php

    Tony has his own WonkaWillie, Tom Freiss, who posts those clandestine CPS interviews of children.

    What a stand up, roll around in circles kinda guy!

  345. So, Ali, the five young women testifying are all liars? Is that your thought? Or is it some how not a crime if it happened five years ago????

  346. I think Ali (ska Bliss Ninny) is claiming that just because Tony was a perverted pedophile 5 years ago we can’t know he’s still a perveted pedophile today. So the fact that all these girls have testified that he threatened them and their famlies if they talked should factor into the fact that they may not be claiming abuse at the moment. I mean, it’s been 9 whole months, everyone knows in 9 months if something happened a child would open up and share all, right?

  347. Tony Alamo, Warren Jeffs, and any other man never married legally ONE woman is a causing their children to be bastards.
    ====================================================
    Bastard is still a degrading term. I’m sure you wouldn’t call a person of color a degrading term then try to justify it by linking a description from Wiki.
    ====================================================
    Well thanks for looking Ali and admitting that Alamo is in deep trouble, as it will be shown the “Feds” made its case.
    ====================================================
    The feds might have made their case. It all depends upon if the jury found the testimony of the suspected victims believable.
    ====================================================
    And I’m still waiting for the cries of the children’s privacy being violated. I mean, publishing a page in a diary was decried as horrible abuse but a privacy protected videotape of an interview into sexual abuse being plastered on the internet is just fine?
    =========================================================
    It depends upon if the parents released permission for the videotapes to be released. You may not like it, I may not like it, but it is their rights as parents.

  348. No Ali-oop it is not their rights as parents, the children are in CPS custody they are the only ones that can give permission for anything to do with those children.

  349. No Ali-oop it is not their rights as parents, the children are in CPS custody they are the only ones that can give permission for anything to do with those children.
    =====================================================
    Not really. So far none of the parental rights have been terminated.

  350. “It depends upon if the parents released permission for the videotapes to be released. You may not like it, I may not like it, but it is their rights as parents.”

    Not necessarily. Since these children are in foster care the “rights” of the parents are limited. I rather doubt that they have a “right” to expose their children’s interviews to the public in violation to the Privacy Laws. And I’d really like to know, if these are so exculpatory, just where the other 20 odd interviews are. You’re using less than 1 in 5 of the children to claim none are molested. What a crock of offal!

  351. “Not really. So far none of the parental rights have been terminated.”

    Parental rights do not have to be fully terminated for them to be limited when they are no longer allowed guardianship of their children. This would be a case in point. I seriously doubt they have a legal right to allow those private videos to be on the internet. In fact, I doubt they had a legal right to the videos at all.

  352. What I’d like to know is, do the children have guardians ad litem at all? It would be nice to know the kids had someone who was supposed to look out for their interests first and foremost.

  353. Parental rights do not have to be fully terminated for them to be limited when they are no longer allowed guardianship of their children.
    =====================================================
    Actually look it at this way. A couple divorces and one gets custody of the child in this example say the mother. The father has the right as a parent, to look at his child’s diary if it left in house. Privacy rights don’t apply when it comes to parent/child relationships.
    ==================================================
    In fact, I doubt they had a legal right to the videos at all.
    =========================================================
    But they do. It’s called disclosure and is mandated by the Constitution.

  354. And I’d really like to know, if these are so exculpatory, just where the other 20 odd interviews are.
    ================================================
    I’m not aware of another 20 different interviews taking place. Perhaps out of 36 kids they have so far these fit the profiles of suspected victims so was interviewed and documented more carefully? /shrug I don’t really know.

  355. Disclosure allows them to know the contents of the videos and to have a copy for their legal defense, it does NOT allow them to release the copies on the internet. They “might” have the right to violate their children’s privacy like that, but I doubt it. And if they DID release those videos, then it is just one more example of how unfit they are as parents. But I’m still leaning towards them being false.

  356. Rebeckah, Im sure the children have attorney ad litems,the videos Alinusara is talking about were released just after children were picked up last year. And the Judge was royally pissed the interviews were published.

    Alinusara, I typed the dictionary term for the word bastard, you take it anyway you like. But, the word originated because of Polygnous relationships… Which means, women who aren’t really married to the man, yet have children with him, more than one wife with many children.

  357. And all your arguements are without merit Alinusara, because just like Flds, Alamo isn’t not a pastor but a pervert, with a bunch of ignorant people following him in crime.

  358. Rebeckah, Im sure the children have attorney ad litems,the videos Alinusara is talking about were released just after children were picked up last year. And the Judge was royally pissed the interviews were published.
    ========================================================
    Aye Deputydog and that may have what prompted the judge to put a gag order on the case.

  359. Huh, I already forgot I wasn’t going to feed the troll. Oh well, better late than never.

  360. I couldn’t help but noticing the racist term Alamo used to describe one of his concubines and the biracial child of another concubine. What is it that ties whacky religious polygamy to racism? And what kind of man sleeps with a woman and then calls her a n—-r afterward?

    What a pathetic excuse for a human being.

  361. And all your arguements are without merit Alinusara, because just like Flds, Alamo isn’t not a pastor but a pervert, with a bunch of ignorant people following him in crime.
    ===========================================================
    But see my friend, you are painting them all with one broad brush. Back in the day, still possible today I suppose, a parent could send their children to a Catholic boarding school without being aware that the priest in charge has some sort of problem. Today the parent could still consider themselves Catholics and send the children back to the same school, once the priest in charge is removed and incarcerated.
    ==============================================
    What is it that ties whacky religious polygamy to racism?
    ======================================================
    I saw people of color attending that ranch so I was assuming he wasn’t.
    ==============================================
    And what kind of man sleeps with a woman and then calls her a n—-r afterward?
    ===================================================
    That was pretty bad if true but I guess I’ve seen lots of couples in the heat of the moment call each other nasty names.

  362. Well, here’s the more interesting thing about Tony Alamo is that he has adopted the name we all know him by but he was born as Bernard LaZar Hoffman the son of Eastern European Jewish immigrants. He evangelized into his Christian faith as a young man and never discusses his roots with anyone. People whom completely change their heritage and persona into someone or something else tend to be less than fully stable or 100% credible.

  363. CaJim, you know I love you, but please don’t dignify that man’s lies as “his Christian faith.”

    Alin—a moment’s consideration would tell you what kind of man calls a woman he’s just slept with a n—-r. Either a slave owner or a frequenter of prostitutes.

  364. Alin—a moment’s consideration would tell you what kind of man calls a woman he’s just slept with a n—-r
    ==========================================
    I was unaware they just finished having sex. I did say that was pretty bad, what more do you want?

  365. You’re right; I shouldn’t have said “just”. My impression from that admittedly scant story was that it was a regular form of verbal abuse by him and others in his harem. (But of course we all know that polygamous households are just one big happy family.)

    Sorry to rant at you.

  366. GFNY, I have the full Faith and confidence that the Jury will do the right thing on these ten charges and Tony Alamo will be convicted on all charges. Just think that this trial just touches upon the tip of this Alamo Ministries iceberg and many crimes will never be brought to Justice.

  367. “I couldn’t help but noticing the racist term Alamo used to describe one of his concubines and the biracial child of another concubine.”

    I couldn’t help but wonder why the woman and the mother of the child were still in the group. How much abuse does it take to know you’re in a toxic situation?!? Arrrggghhh!

  368. Dang, the jury breaks until tomorrow AM. I would have thought it was a slam-dunk.

  369. I think it’s better that they’re deliberating. That way there can be no legitimate complaints that the jury had the guy convicted even before they went into deliberations. They are clearly doing their job with deliberation. 😉 (forgive the pun)

  370. They cant make it appear too obvious. They will most likely throw him a bone in the way of a couple no-guilty counts, but with ten, and most looking like strong cases, you can be assured he will spend life in prison.

    They are just tying the bow down hard so it will stick.

  371. just like Flds, Alamo isn’t not a pastor but a pervert, with a bunch of ignorant people following him in crime.

    deputydog1 said this on July 23, 2009 at 2:26 PM

    AMEN deputy!

  372. In an article about Merrianne Jessop going to permanently live with Naomi Carlisle –
    “The last child is now back with a member of her family, and they can all move on with their lives,” said a statement from Valerie Malara of Colorado and Brett Pritchard of Texas, Barbara Jessop’s attorneys.

    So WHY does Barbara Jessop and a Colorado attorney? Why need legal advice for Colorado laws?

    That just seems strange to me.

  373. Anon @6:59 isn’t the old decrepit FLDS ladies home in Colorado? Hmmmmm, maybe that is where Naomi is headed and taking Merrianne with her.

  374. Im not sure Naomi is that old LadySadie,but really don’t know. Some of her children , older ones left Flds. Her Husband died.

  375. DD if she is past reproduction age then the FLDS consider her useless, thus decrepit old ladies home for her.

  376. If I recall, Naomi Carlisle already lives in Colorado. I don’t think it is in the area of any of the known major FLDS locations (Mancos, Westcliffe, Penrose, Longmong, Lone Tree, etc.), Barbara has had this Colorado attorney on board since at least early May (when it was announced that Merrianne would leave foster care and go live with Naomi). So that means that the Colorado attorney was hired before that to work on these negotiations.

  377. According to this March 14, 2009 article Naomi Carlisle is 52 years old and a resident of Bandera (I am going to assume that is in Texas).

  378. I hope Merrianne gets her head straight and [when she is old enough] finds a YOUNG man who will treat her with respect and kindness. Then SHE can decide if she wants to marry [for real this time].

  379. By the way According to the newspaper, the attorneys for the indicted men set the dates for the pretrial hearings.

    ************************
    At the beginning of the conference, 51st District Judge Barbara Walther left the room for about 20 minutes, leaving the lawyers huddled over a schedule sheet to set proposed hearing schedules among themselves.

  380. BARLING, Ark. — A former Tony Alamo church members says Alamo used religion to take advantage of people, including her daughter who was forced to marry the evangelist when she was 17 years old.

    Carol Fryer said she never thought she’d see the day Alamo would face a jury.

    She and her family joined the Alamo ministry in the 1980s. Fryer said looking back things didn’t seem right from the beginning.

    “The stark reality hit me in the first service that I attended,” Fryer said. “They were kind of like robots.”

    Fryer said the evangelist forced her minor daughter into marriage after threatening her at a California church building.

    “She made me think she was really happy,” Fryer said. “I didn’t find out what was really going on until he invited me to come over the house.”

    Fryer said shortly after the marriage Alamo began sexually abusing her daughter.

    “I was upset, but there wasn’t anything you could say or do,” Fryer said.”

    Fryer said she has been following Alamo’s trial since it started and was disturbed to hear the stories of abuse.

    “When I read some of the stories… that little 11 year old girl carrying the sheets out of his bedroom stuff like that tears your heart out,” Fryer said. “Some of those little girls I babysat. I loved them, and he tore their lives apart. He destroyed them.”

    Fryer said she’s praying the jury listened to the testimony and finds Alamo guilty. She worries for other families if he is allowed to walk a free man.

    “I’ll be very upset because that will put all those children in harm’s way again,” Fryer said. “There will be future victims.”

    Fryer said she and her daughter are no longer members of Alamo’s church. Fryer said her daughter is now in her 30s and has a successful career in computer technology.

    Fryer said if Alamo is found not guilty he will likely still run the church from prison through phone calls and letters.

  381. There’s a Bandera, TX about 25 miles south of Kerrville and a equal distance NW of San Antonio.

  382. Naomi lives in Bandera Texas. Why? I don’t have a clue

  383. The basic reason the Berry Farms were abandoned is that fuel costs to pump water there, in addition to paying someone to babysit the pumping and all other activities, made it an unprofitable venture.

    Even with free land. So every year you invest $500,000, but you gross 300,000.

    Do you pay $200,000 a year to pretend you are a farmer? And the “Holy Temple site” is a joke, if you look up the knoll on google earth, you will see its right on the highway, with powerlines on it.

    Well, their prophet said:….

    1. The Temple site is in Texas (and there is no denying that – its ACTUALLY THERE)

    2. The UEP and Shortcreek inhabitants are rejected by God (and there is no denying that – its ACTUALLY STATED in the dictations, copied in Bruces UEP Response)

    ========

    3. No come hither and tither perhaps a different Prophet with a different message, but who is he? Dare he speak? He certainly isnt mouthpeice Willie. No, Warren still sits on the FLDS throne, regardless its surrounded by metal bars.

  384. ALAMO CONVICTED ON ALL 10 COUNTS!
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j7JRsIm1DgSBIfIFSL3D_fjT1HmwD99KTJSG4

  385. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,534727,00.html

    DEVELOPING: Evangelist Tony Alamo was convicted Friday on federal charges he took underage girls across state lines for sex.
    The jury issued its judgment Friday in federal court in Texarkana. They found the 74-year-old Alamo guilty of all counts he faced

  386. I’m not sure what the sentencing guidelines recommend but the max is 10 counts of 10 years consecutively or 100 years.

  387. Its 10yrs per count according to The newspaper. So 100 yrs is fine with me!

  388. Guess he won’t need his viagra in prison!

  389. A wah ya know, Mon. Lissen I tesamony ya some on these here Cheatahman no, no Shepherd. Tony Alamo is Devilmon, he Ramgoat with all these baby young sistahz, now. Old Ramgoat eat some sweet green girl, now go some hot in him belly. Yeh mon me no lie. Bad bwoyz, whad yah gonna do when dey come lookin’ fo yah. Ramgoat got some hot in his belly now, him go to jail and live widda’ batty bwoyz. I and I pray they take’m away to da cage and ocean the key. Y’shua bring Peez, Jesum Peez ONE LOVE

  390. Tony Alamo, a one-time street preacher who built a multimillion-dollar ministry, was convicted today of taking girls as young as 9 across state lines for sex, the Associated Press reports.

    Alamo remained silent as the verdict was read.

    His five victims sat looking forward in the gallery. One, a woman he “married” at age 8, wiped away a tear, the AP says.

    In the trial, the five women, now age 17 to 33, told jurors that Alamo “married” them in private ceremonies while they were minors, sometimes giving them wedding rings. Each detailed trips beyond Arkansas’ borders for Alamo’s sexual gratification.

    “I’m just another one of the prophets that went to jail for the Gospel,” Alamo called to reporters afterward as he was escorted to a waiting U.S. marshal’s vehicle. The trial was held in Texarkana, Ark.

    Alamot faces a sentence of up to 175 years in prison.

  391. Old PERVERT!! Prophet my ass!

  392. http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090723/national/submerged_car_bodies

    And here we have another happy polygamous family in Canada.

    Y’know, Nancy, I wish I could visit that site and lay some flowers. Those girls were supposed to be living a free life, in a democratic society, not a theocracy run by their father and his favorite concubine and child.

    What a shame the women of the middle east cannot even look to us [North American Democracies] as a beacon of hope any longer, because no one in law enforcement or the courts takes the original crime of polygamy, and the abuses inherent to it seriously to begin with. If someone had, at least the children might have been protected from their “aunt”.

  393. In a nutshell, that’s what I told Nancy Mereska of Stop Polygamy in Canada about this one.

  394. The Vatican wins! Alamo is guilty on all counts!

  395. Oh happy, happy day. What is Texarkana, some 500 miles from El Dorado? Look east and weep, my friends.

  396. :::Snort!::

    Good ones, Greetings!

  397. What a terrible story, Boots. Canada has to get over their reverence for multiculturalism. There are some values that shouldn’t be imported, and this is one of them.

    Puts a damper on my joy over the Alamo verdict.

  398. Don’t let it put a damper on your joy that justice is finally being served. I think your faith gives you the right to hunger and thirst for righteousness, which translated correctly, I believe means “justice”, if anyone would care to look it up.

    People who love justice show a good charachter trait, imo;)

    I guess that means I think of the survivors I know, who can stand up to these guys, like Elissa and Teressa, Flora, Mary, Pam, Carolyn, Brent etc…as people just like us, they LOVE justice.

    How can that be a bad thing?

  399. It’s not a bad thing! And hopefully the woman in Tony Alamo case, whose children are missing,, she will get her children back.

  400. The feds should be investigating all the corporations Flds say they own, you know darn well they aren’t paying taxes they are supposed to be paying!

  401. So, Utah is celebrating Pioneer Days! hmmmm
    And they celebrate it because they fought their way to Utah to be able to practice polygamy, which is against the law, yet they have a holiday for it.

  402. DeputyDog actually they left the United States and entered what was then Mexico after the deal to move into the Republic of Texas fell apart because Texas was voted into the Union in 1845. After the 1848 Treaty of Hidalgo the Mormon settlements found themselves back inside the United States by said peace treaty agreements.

  403. Poor Mormons couldn’t catch a break, could they? Of course, they could have kept going to Mexico. Too bad they stopped right in the middle of two areas of US territory and no one was able to “prophesy” that the US would eventually gather in the land in between.

  404. Boots, you have touched upon one of my favorite Bible passages:

    “‘With what shall I come before the LORD,
    and bow myself before God on high?
    Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,
    with calves a year old?
    Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams,
    with ten thousands of rivers of oil?
    Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression,
    the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?’

    “He has told you, O man, what is good;
    and what does the LORD require of you
    but to do justice, and to love kindness,
    and to walk humbly with your God?”

    (Micah 6:6-8)

    How many people have been led astray by false prophets who turned this backwards? When they give their daughters to a false prophet, aren’t they giving ‘the fruit of their bodies for the sin of their souls?

  405. YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!! They Are GFNY

  406. I REALLLY wanted to see/hear Alamo testify on his own behalf. To get into testimony, is own words, his justification for “marrying” and then raping little girls. Unfortunately, I’m sure it won’t be long before another “preacher” steps up to continue the work of this pervert and one in jail in the Utah State Prison.

  407. “…and one in jail in the Utah State Prison.”

    Actually, Soozie, Warren Jeffs is sitting in a solitary confinement cell, “under close suicide watch” in the Mohave County Jail in Kingman, Arizona.

    I guess you could call them and ask to speak to him and see if they’ll put you through to his cell, lol.

  408. Deputdog and his bitter opposition to the lifestyle he/she deems appropriate. Come on Deputy, you’re a dime a dozen.

  409. “Deputdog and his bitter opposition to the lifestyle he/she deems appropriate. Come on Deputy, you’re a dime a dozen.”

    I assume you mean “inappropriate”, and thank goodness for people who speak out against those who would use religion to abuse and neglect children.

  410. MV the practice of polygamy is illegal in this country, it’s not just I who deem it inappropriate. It’s degrading, disqusting, practice to women. Religious or Secular.

  411. I suggest you all go read John T. Floyd’s blog today.

  412. LOL, Hugh. Roll up, roll up folks, they have jumped the gun and started the show.

    Thank you, Flora Jessop.

    Imagine that.

  413. Ain’t my work kiddo.

  414. Didn’t mean to imply it was. I just find it interesting that they are going to try the 1953 argument, all over again.

    We are a religion. We have a right to own women and children, depriving them of their natural born rights as put forth in the American Constitution if we want too… because Warren Jeffs says so.

    Abuse isn’t a religion and polygamy is abuse.

  415. I’m happy for you, Hugh, that you’ve found a lawyer to feed your fantasy that religiously mandated polygamy is just dandy, that daddies should be allowed to marry off their 13 year old daughters to any old coot, and whatever other distortion it pleases you to believe. I had several arguments with the article.

    1) His statistics did not “prove” that sexual abuse is more common in mainstream society as we know full well that the FLDS have made a practice of dealing with their own offenders internally rather than legally, so their crime statistics (which were not listed that I saw) are not valid.

    2) Misinformation to the media took place by both parties. “There are no underage marriages taking place.” “They VACCINATED our children!” “The girls were given invasive SANE examinations!” etc. But I notice this lawyer chooses to ignore those in favor of his own bias.

    I’m not going to draw a halo around CPS or the government and say they are always right, always act for the right reasons or make the best choices. However, at least the government is open to public scrutiny 24/7, which tends to keep it reasonably honest. The FLDS have gone to great lengths to skulk in the shadows of our society so they can continue to bind their young girls in illegal matrimony and trap them in endless births and/or miscarriages.

  416. Rebeckah,

    “We know full well?” This is in fact not something we share, so no, we don’t.

    By the way, between “Coram” and “Ron” and this blog, none of the alleged legal minds who prance and strut about here are known to be attorneys. For them to be KNOWN as attorneys they would have to be known publicly for who they are.

    So in view of these people’s constant strutting and posturing and name calling and yelling that I do not “Get It,” I submit John T. Floyd, and you are all refuted.

    Either that or you weenies can own up to who you are and lend some credibility to your positions. Floyd to my knowledge has no dog in this fight. Roughly, he seems to be saying what I’ve been saying, so chalk one up for the Pharisee, call me when one of you is willing to go on the record. Until then you stink of cowardice.

  417. Hugh,

    Sometimes plain sight is the safest place to be, as in my case, since I am an activist, and sometimes it isn’t, like when your life or your family might be in danger.

    For you to act as though no one who has gone up against the FLDS as an organization has ever been subject to threats or intimidation…sheesh.

    let’s be real my friend. Get real.

    It is time to admit there has been a fear factor here on regular Texas citizen’s parts as well. They have learned the facts and they know as much as they care to about the FLDS “religion”.

    Far as they can tell, looks like plain old abuse.

    The guys that wrote this aren’t in the can for anyone? Get real.

  418. LOL! I stink of cowardice? I’m not a lawyer and never claimed to be. All I am, like you, is a citizen of the United States of America. Unlike Ron and Blues, I have no professional life to protect by keeping my identity anonymous, but then I have no reason to expose myself on the internet either. You don’t need to know who I am because my opinion means, basically, nothing. I’m a professional grandmother, nothing more. (Well, I do also do a lot of work with my grandson who has autism, but that’s not on a professional basis either.)

    Now, if you want to see coweardice, let’s look at a man who has gems like “It’s okay if a few 13 year old girls get raped as long as their parent’s “rights” aren’t violated.” or “It’s okay for the fathers to decide to marry off their 13 year old daughter.” (Let’s ignore the fact that basic human decency says you let the girls grow up and make up their own minds about their lives. No, this is all about men being in control, isn’t. Women are just too incapable of thinking for themselves.) And, my personal favorite; “What went on at the YFZ is not nearly as “heinous” as what goes on in the average high school.”

    In other words, we “cowards” should not make moral judgements about the choices of Hugh’s good buddies in the FLDS but it is totally appropriate for Hugh (and his good buddies in the FLDS) to make “moral” judgements about the rest of America. We should not legislate according to the social mores and the advanced knowledge of human development that has been discovered over the past hundred years or so, but we should let “men” make these decisions instead. Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you the worst sort of coward there is. The moral coward who cannot feel good about himself unless he is able to feel “superior” to another gender.

  419. Bravo! Well said, Rebeckah!

  420. Hugh’s idea that a girl’s father should be allowed to choose a polygamist husband for her at a young age (shortly after menses) is totally repulsive and abhorrent. Debating him on whether that is acceptable would be like debating whether Hitler’s final solution was acceptable, whether extreme torture or human slavery is acceptable and should be allowed.
    The very thought of it makes my skin crawl and my body shudder. Apparently Mr. McBryde (if that is who the poster really is) is totally unaware that his beliefs are vile and disgusting to the vast majority of Americans.

  421. Yeah, stink. Trolls. Your website statistics betray you. I give ’em a big fat boost every time I come to them. What are there? Three of you altogether masquerading as a crowd?

  422. Your website statistics betray you. I give ‘em a big fat boost every time I come to them.

    Once again Pharisee your narcissism is showing.

  423. What’s a matter hughy baby, you jealous because whoever owns this site can get legal documents faster than even Brooke Adams???
    Or is it just that your so called traffic is NOTHING?
    People like documented evidence hughy, and this site has that, you can’t be biased when you have actual documents staring you in the face.

  424. I’d be willing to bet that FLDS Texas generates a lot more traffic than Pharisee.

  425. I’m sad to say I’ve visited the Pharisee site twice in the last two days. Both times it’s because I wasn’t clicking where I meant to click. I gotta get myself better glasses…

  426. hmmm–if and when I go to the pharisee site–my computer locks up–so…not going there anymore!!!
    I don’t like it anyway..

  427. Hugh is fantasizing about a polygymous lifestyle, but is not actually living it. What he says about it now is only smoke blowing, or BS. Anyone can do that. When he has actually walked the walk his posts will be more relevant.

  428. I would have said that only when he grows up will his posts be more relevant, but that works too, Chemist. 😀

  429. jobo: duane did that once. Posted a link and wrote to go there for more information. The “there” was a site that locked up your computer, As Rebekah says, there is a lack of maturity with hugh and duane. Propbaly why they do all that thinking about wanting to have multiople wives.

  430. Whew. What a childish immature bozo that one shows himself to be. I won’t go there.

  431. You want to read a sick story, this was in the Deseret news today.

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705319185/Seminary-students-account-of-sex-abuse-is-cautionary-tale.html

  432. Geez child sexual abuse is an epedemic in Utah…. Look at this!

    Prosecutors charged an 81-year-old man with 20 felonies for allegedly raping and abusing a close relative for several years.

    The Salt Lake resident is being held in jail on $1 million bail for 11 first-degree felonies and nine second-degree felonies, including charges of rape, forcible sodomy, object rape of a child and forcible sexual abuse.

    Investigators say he started sexually abusing the girl in California when she was 4 years old and didn’t stop until the girl turned 18 after moving to Utah, according to charges filed in 3rd District Court.

    The man told police the child seduced him when she was between 7 and 12 years old and also told investigators the girl had “an amazing body and was very beautiful,” the charges state.

    After moving to Utah in 1999, when the girl was 14, the man sexually abused her on almost a daily basis, according to the charges.

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705319045/Man-faces-felonies-in-long-term-abuse.html

  433. Well, I can see TIME is going to put a lot of real investigative effort into this one…

    http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1912477,00.html

  434. Hugh truer COWARDICE is when you fail to allow comments to be posted on your blog and allow the Public to read and form their own opinion. Being too afraid to post an oppositions perspective is the most cowardly approach to the blogosphere. So why don’t you practice what you preach Hugh and publish those dozens of negative comments that causes your blogs comments to dwindle down to 3 to 5 comments because you choose to edit out your naysayers on your pristine blog. Then come to this blog and post whatever you wish, only here you are just one very, very small voice amongst 100s of postings. Go back to your backwater blog and skulk until another acceptable follower comes along but never finds time to post any comments.

  435. Hurrah Jim, well said.

  436. Oh, yeah I am poster number fortyleven. Today.

  437. Boots someone needs to let TIME know the ranch isn’t owned by Flds church. Its a Corporation!

  438. Would one of yas hand me a sheep so I can buff that old bugger Mudpucky’s bald head with it? No, not that one, that ugly one over there with the dingleberries hangin off its tail.

  439. How is that sideshow of shifting the pea under the walnut shell where ownership of YFZ is concerned going, and oh yeah, they were trying to make it seem like a religion instead of a LLC too, weren’t they? FLDS are amusing to watch.

  440. Yeah, stink. Trolls. Your website statistics betray you. I give ‘em a big fat boost every time I come to them. What are there? Three of you altogether masquerading as a crowd?

    Hugh McBryde said this on July 26, 2009 at 8:06 AM

    =====================

    Well, geez Hugh, its a much bigger crowd than the one posting on YOUR site, where the comments are most commonly static at ZERO.

    Some CROWD YOU GOT LOL.

    But be happy, its not like the crowd your freinds Tony Tiger and Warrant boy hang out with!

  441. It is an interesting subject. I blog for the AAAP so people will have more information. I do not have many posters to the site but do have a lot of visitors. Are their motives for lurking, not posting, the same as they are at MV’s, I dunno. i do know I have people say to me all the time, “Oh yeah I read about that on your blog”.

    To be fair I have often warned people not to reveal their identity there, because it is monitored by more FLDS than anti-polygamists. This is no different than the Eldorado Success selling a huge portion of its subscriptions to FLDS all over the country.

    They like lurking and do it all the time. They even sent the priesthood into several of our book signing locations, just to stare at us and listen to what we were telling people.

    There’s no law against it but we shouldn’t pretend it doesn’t happen, or that it doesn’t mean anything.

    The people of Texas who know most about this case, all across the board, are afraid to speak out unless they can remain anonymous.

    What a shame it is the people who are keepers of the law who are ashamed to show their faces to the world.

    I removed several rather hateful posts from AAAP’s board, because it was my opinion they were pretenting to be posting as anti-polygamists and I wasn’t going to let racists garbage sit on anything with my name on it.

    I dunno about his blog. I’ve never felt particularly drawn to the idea of visiting all the propaganda the FLDS put out there. The few times I have followed links, they invariably lead me into white supremacists sites; so I just prefer not to go at all. But I do know sometimes, especially on the net, you can have more friends and supporters, as well as detractors than you might think.

  442. The wheels of justice turn to slowly for me! LOL anyone else?

  443. DeputyDog, Amen. This is a frustrating and delayed process to bring Justice to bear on the accused and the system was placed somewhat into shock given the scale of this organized crime wave. 439 Children didn’t just drop out of the sky after a Texas twister blew through, the serial felony(s) didn’t elapse over one week, or month, either. Tony Alamo got his Justice, so sit tight and see the Judicial juggernaut and how many years and financial damage is dealt to Alamo Ministry. I just wish the Federal form of Justice was going to be employed soon, so this intra-State crime wave can get the proper level of Law Enforcement , given the scale of this FLDS Church crime wave.

  444. DD

    I dunno. It was great to see Tony take his smackdown Friday, and Bills site still says:

    THE FEDERAL CASE AGAINST TONY ALAMO RUNS OUT OF GAS.

    I would think its the other way, TONY has RUN OUT OF GAS as his lies and actions land him in prison for life!

    A great week!

    Judge Lindberg slapped around Mark and Willie too!

  445. Well it is not the quanity it is the QUALITY of posters.

    SusieQ

  446. I think you missed the point. If size a of a crowd posting at this blog had ANYTHING to do proportionally with people viewing the blog overall, you’d outrank me.

    But you don’t.

    That means there’s some shamming going on, trolls.

  447. Well since this blog didn’t start till March 2009 Hugh, I don’t see how that could happen yet. Your blog has been up a long time.

  448. Or that your friends in the FLDS and HOY like to visit you and lurk.

    Just because you sell more newspapers to one side or the other doesn’t indicate who is winning in court.

    I have a petition circulating and it still has less than 200 signatures on it. The FLDS has a petition that has 25 pages of names and comments. Of course, some of them read like, ‘Hello, my name is Michael and I think Texas is very bad for taking us from our mother’. Signed Michael age 4.

  449. Hugh

    Perhaps you are under the mistaken impression that this website is in a contest.

    Because if you want to be in a website contest, Perez Hilton owns you, and will always own you.

    Besides, I tend to think the operators of this site are looking for quality, not quantity!

  450. No Stamp, you’re typically doing what just about everyone on these sites are doing, you’re equivocating. You’re trying to portray the discussion as a “Mine is bigger than yours” discussion and it’s not.

    It’s about the fakery revealed by the stats of sites like this one. Nearly 500 comments and the variety of different “persona’s” means that some of them are almost certainly one person, not several. If that was not the case, a site this active would be one of the top web sites in the country, but it’s not.

    The point again, you’re trolls and cyber tigers.

    I was infinitesimally small once, and bigger now, and likely to be smaller again when this FLDS thingy blows completely over. I don’t care about that, I’m trying to point out to you that you’re fakers (you knew that) but we KNOW you’re faking (you’re trying to HIDE that.)

  451. Hugh, we’re just real people. Try to relax, sugar, it’s just a blog. I’m sure in the big picture of life it doesn’t mean a lot.

    Yet you care so passionately.

  452. Hugh — no one who runs this site is prancing around trying to portray themselves as an attorney.

  453. Having just visited the stats page, I can tell you without equivocation that every discrete nickname you see on this page is a discreet user, with the exception of the admin nickname (which is shared by the admins) and anonymous posters.

    Whether you believe that or not, I really couldnt care less. I enjoy this website whether it’s visited by 5 or 5000 people each day.

    Hugh, you’re on the verge of getting timed out or worse if you continue to just show up to insult this site and the people who run it.

  454. Hugh really counts on people being a lot more tolerant of him than he is of others. Of course there have been a few harsh sentiments directed his way. I keep trying to feel sorry for my part in it, but I keep coming up against my disgust for someone passing judgement on the morals of others when he doesn’t have the basic moral fiber to grant over half the population of the world their own basic human dignity and rights. Probably there was a kinder way to point out that he is no shining example of moral manhood, but I simply can’t think of how. That’s my failing, I guess.

    I’m pretty good at spotting similarities in posting styles and “trollish” writing. I don’t really see that here. Lots of posters have similar views, but they don’t express them the same way. (On that concept, I’d like to mention that the Jamacan avatar who posts here occasionally is virtually unreadable with the “accent” he/she uses. I really don’t understand at least a quarter of what that person is saying. Perhaps you’d tone it down just a tad? I’m guessing that I’d enjoy the 1/4 that I’m missing, so please don’t think I’m being critical.) Anyway, if people DID post under multiple profiles I’d say that would reflect more on them and their lack of a life than on the site. Just my two cents worth, for what it’s worth. 😉

  455. Rebeckah, unlike Hugh, to better understand Jamaicka just ‘google’ his terminology and his Jamaican vocabulary is defined or translated. Hugh is another matter as to grasping his point or meaning. He’s a conspiracy theorist, like stating that this blog is a troll site? I’m not sure if the people whom post here will understand nor pay much attention to his rantings.

    Fldstexas, my vote is to let Hugh vent his theories, they only are his sole imaginings and I don’t see the harm.

  456. Hugh,

    Note the absence of advertisements. Now, YOU advertise, what are you up to, $83.64? And they wont pay you till you make $100.00? And that has taken HOW long..?

    LMAO. Keep em coming, your conspiracies are kinda like Prez Hiltons –

    Bizarre, outlandish and often entertaining!

  457. Also, what I find odd Hugh, is you made a post about how many hits you and Bill get.

    Dont you find it odd that so many people look at your site yet refuse to comment?

    Think about it. What does that tell you? Is your Church investigating you? The FBI? Do they agree with you?

    No, people are stopping by to see the smoking train wreck.

  458. Hugh, I promise you, there’s only one of me. I’ve been trying for YEARS to figure out how to clone myself, especially during tax season. I am, however, unique.

  459. caJim, I wasn’t confusing Jamaika with Hugh in any way. While I don’t understand large chunks of what Jamaika says, what I do understand hasn’t been nasty or offensive. I was just mentioning my difficulty in translating. I’ll try to google some of the terms and see if they make more sense, though, thanks for the suggestion. 😀

  460. “Hugh, I promise you, there’s only one of me. I’ve been trying for YEARS to figure out how to clone myself, especially during tax season. I am, however, unique.”

    LOL, only one “Anonymous”? (Sorry, couldn’t resist. No offense intended, Anonymous 10:13.)

  461. LOL, the electronic gremlins will get you every time! Darn that Murphy anyway. 😆

  462. A whada yu know, me nah tell yu no lies. Bwoy dis Hugh mon him has a lil peppa and burnz de’bigga mons lips. Whole heap of talky chat from Babylon royal, dis fool still is thirstee, him a fish.

    Ya tink seh it so eazy? Puttin’ away Hugh him have hard ears, no true? Ya no see it? Sistah Becky no worry and nuh chat wid dis royal mon, me nah do dat.
    Stir it up Darlin’, more time. Hax Paadan

    Blessed be Yahshua, Ha Mashiyad
    Bengie

  463. Rebeckah,

    I THINK Jamaicka man is on our side, but I can hardly understand him myself.

    I think he is saying something like “don’t pay attention to Hugh, cause he’s full of it?

    Is that right, everyone? 🙂

  464. Sumthin’ like that MG. I think I would have understood better if he wrote in Cajun or Texan..even Spanglish.

  465. I understand Ebonics. 🙂

    (I lived in an area affected by the Ebonic Plague when my children were young. In fact, that’s where I first heard “my bad” from.)

    lol

  466. So don’t you people be dissin’ me, man. Better give me my props. 😉

  467. Ha! Language is a beautiful thang, ain’t it.

  468. Boots my best Jamaican patois translates Bengie as sayin’ Hugh talks too much and the pepper he eats ends up more on his lips than in his mouth. Bengie thinks Hugh doesn’t have much to say and prefers to be around other men, i.e. ‘Him a fish’. He thinks Hugh chats too much and faults him for not listening. He thinks Rebeckah shouldn’t bother to talk with him and he does like what she has to say, i.e. ‘Stir it up Darlin’
    He signs off with ‘Blessed be Jesus the Messiah’
    I think that is the gist of his post.

    I agree with him that Hugh ‘him a fish’.

  469. TIMPSON, RULON JEFFS
    Birth Date: 10/30/90
    Address : 880 S PIONEER ST, Colorado City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    09:33:42 07/25/09 Mock, Stephen WCJL

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    32A-12-209 ALCOHOL- MINOR CONSUM BM WCJ7 0.00 [No Payments Made]

  470. David Rulon Pledger, 28, 349 E. 650 South, Ivins, was arrested Saturday on charges of interfering with arrest and an outstanding warrant. Pledger was booked into Purgatory Correctional Facility on $6,595 bail.

  471. Hugh, I have consumed adult beverages with many of the people who post on this blog, so I assure you that they are real.

    (No, I’m not submitting an itemized list. I’m supposed to be working.)

  472. I could use an adult beverage right about now.

  473. Thanks for that translation, caJim. I guess I have to ammend my guess at how much I understood from Jamaika to about half. I was missing more than I realized. 🙂

  474. We could always meet in Luckenbach for one of those sometime.

  475. Well if any of you end up in Eastern Washington give me a heads up and we can go for an adult beverage at the bar where my daughter’s fiancee runs the karoke. Just be warned, he has a poor sense of boundries and might push you into singing something. (He’s a good guy though, we just can’t take him out in public. ADHD — lol)

  476. OH BOY! An excuse to sing in public!!

  477. Oh L-rd, has anyone warned the poor Washington folk of Texan’s propensity for singing in public.

    Maybe someone should send them a copy of a Robert Earl Keen CD, recorded live. It’s wrong to just stun people…::snort::

    We’re worse than the Irish, no really, they can cary a tune.

  478. HEY! I can carry a tune!

    (there’s just something about the temperature being 110 degrees that brings out my silly. pray for rain)

  479. Someone from around New Jersey just sent us some in North Texas…I am praying it in your direction now;)

  480. What a coincidence — it’s 100 here too. I thought I was going to pass out this morning while cooking breakfast for the family. (We only aircondition the computer room.)

  481. I admit that last night I looked at the forecast, and I said to myself, “I do not see how I can get through another day of this, much less another week.”

    But I am.

    Like I have a choice.

  482. texasrattle,

    You could always stay in the computer room with a cold adult beverage handy until the rain comes.

  483. I’m at my office, where the temp is 88 because this is a funky old building.

    It’s even hotter at home except in my bedroom, and even there, cats want to come drape themselves all over me.

  484. Brooke speaks about a little rally up to SLC WED. Then she quotes Mary Batchelor to which I answer:

    ========

    Mary Batchelor argues against herself:

    “Mary Batchelor, co-founder of Principle Voices, said fundamentalist Mormons are upset with Judge Lindberg’s statements on the practice of polygamy being at odds with rights as a beneficiary.

    “We object to any refusal to allow beneficiaries of this trust to have access to or management control over assets of their own trust based on the fact they believe in and practice polygamy,” Batchelor said.

    ==================

    See, the FLDS are the ones with the religious tests, as noted in Bruce Wisans brilliant response to the court IRT the FLDS and UT AG proposal.

    She cannot allow cemetery or park visitation to rely on these tests.

    Also, Lindberg has repeatedly pointed out that the UEP distribution will not be based on religion, so that FLDS and non-FLDS may both be beneficiaries.

    However, she is correct in pointing out that the FLDS “CHURCH” is not nor ever has been a beneficiary, and to give it to that religious entity, would be illegal, and would break Mary’s arguement.

    Proven with adding one word:

    ““We object to any refusal to allow beneficiaries of this trust to have access to or management control over assets of their own trust based on the fact they believe in and practice (non-FLDS) polygamy”, Batchelor said.”

  485. Isn’t Centinnel Park the one who wants to buy Berry Knoll?

  486. [ Blog reference deleted]
    Alinusara cross blog references are not approved.

    Well worth reading whether or not you agree with it.

  487. DD

    That is correct. However, its really hard to imagine if the offer and financing still wait. Values have dropped.

    Ali

    Same problem with Brooke as with Bill and Hugh. She moderates out dissenting voices. So its a good blog if you want to soak in pro-polygamy stew.

  488. I see some people over on brookie’s blaugh are crying about the order of no cell phones or recording devices in the court room, guess they have never been in a court house before, LOL. Standard operating procedure in every court house and government building in multiple states I have ever been in including Social Security Office and IRS offices, NO CELL PHONES, CAMERA’S OR RECORDING DEVICES of any kind allowed. The guards will not even let you in the building with them.

  489. Utah Code
    30-1-9.1. Parental consent to prohibited marriage of minor — Penalty.
    A parent or guardian who knowingly consents or allows a minor child to enter into a marriage prohibited by law is guilty of a third degree felony.

  490. This code has NOT be changed Since 1953, it applies in Utah TODAY!!!

  491. 30-1-13. Solemnization without license — Penalty.
    If any person knowingly solemnizes a marriage without a license, and if either party is under 16 years of age, without a written authorization from a juvenile court, he is guilty of a third degree felony.

  492. 30-1-15. Solemnization of prohibited marriage — Penalty.
    (1) Any person who knowingly, with or without a license, solemnizes a marriage of a minor prohibited by law is guilty of a third degree felony.
    (2) Any person who knowingly, with or without a license, solemnizes a marriage between two adults prohibited by law is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.

  493. NONE of these laws are being enforced in Utah although they are Utah codes of law.

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