Discussion: Tony Alamo/FLDS Compared

As many of you know Tony Alamo is going to trial on federal Mann Act charges based on facts identical to events that took place within the FLDS — namely, moving underage girls across state lines to be illegally married to and sexually assaulted by a polygamous cult prophet. The raid of Tony Alamo’s compound took place in September of last year. He faces 10 federal charges related to the underage marriages and sexual assaults of children.

There is no great public or media outcry that Tony Alamo is being unfairly picked on for unpopular religious beliefs. The world at large seems to understand that this man is a pedophile and has used a religious pretext to carry out abuses on children.

What is the difference between Tony Alamo’s practices and the practices of FLDS? Absolutely no difference in their practices.

Why is Tony Alamo facing federal charges but the FLDS are apparently not? POLITICS.

Tony Alamo does not have the financial resources to mount the PR campaign that keeps the FLDS out of the clutches of the Feds. Prosecuting Tony Alamo does not carry the PR risk to politicians the same way it would with the FLDS. You think Waco and the PR nightmare that resulted have anything at all to do with who gets prosecuted and who doesnt? Of course it does. It’s all about public perception and popularity. Eric Holder is the top guy at Justice — Janet Reno’s protégée. Waco likely influences every one of his acts of prosecutorial discretion.

Some crimes get prosecuted because it makes heroes out of politicians; the same crimes committed by a different group are allowed to continue because prosecutions might make politicians look bad.

I opened this thread for any ongoing discussion or comparisons of Tony Alamo and the FLDS.

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on July 15, 2009.

243 Responses to “Discussion: Tony Alamo/FLDS Compared”

  1. I can only find one difference in the teachings and claims of the Tony Alamo Ministries and the FLDS. They both claim polygamy as a religious tenet, they both claim it is their religious to marry, rape and impregnate little girls, they both claim that “God” talks to their “prophet”, both of their “prophets” claim that “God” told them by “revelation” to marry, rape and impregnate these little girls.

    The ONE only difference is that the FLDS invoke the name of a man called Joseph Smith when they marry, rape and impregnate little girls and Tony Alamo does not.

  2. One other difference is that Alamo’s victims did not all “keep sweet”. Apparently one little girl figured out that God didn’t really want her to be habitually raped at age 10.

  3. Utah Senator Orrin Hatch has long ago ties to various FLDS Church leaders and ‘hands-off’ policy of Washington County toward Short Creekers. Now that the Texas Exodus has occurred with the subsequent CPS Removal, Senator Hatches laissez faire attitude toward the Short Creekers seems to have come home to roost with the UEPTrust Frauds and Mismanagements. The senior Senator has now gone mute on the subject of the fundamentalists after having courted their support in his campaigns? Senator Reid , majority Whip from Nevada, has promised legislative enactment but has, also, gone still on initiating any fruitful actions against RICO and Mann Act(s) violations by the FLDS Church and it’s leaders.

  4. And gee cajIM, what MAN’s name do both Senator Orrin Hatch and Senator Reid both invoke when practicing their own personal religion? Would that be the same MAN’s name that the FLDS invoke when marrying, raping and impregnating little girls? Would that MAN’s name be Joseph Smith?

  5. Unfortunately FLDS TEXAS, the little girls from the FLDS that didn’t “keep sweet” and figured out that God also didn’t want them habitually raped were never protected by the police/government officials that they reported these same crimes to, unfortunately the little girls from the FLDS were sent back to their rapists by the police/government officials they reported these same crimes to.

  6. remeber to, you have lots of clout of mormons in the congress. Not to mention lots of mormons in government in the states of Utah, Nevada, Idaho, Arizona.

  7. TEXARKANA, Ark. (AP) — A third-generation follower of evangelist Tony Alamo told federal court jurors Wednesday that the preacher had so many sex partners that he scheduled how often he would sleep with them.

    The 30-year-old woman said she was one of Alamo’s wives, marrying him at age 15.

    Alamo is named in a 10-count indictment alleging he took young girls across state lines for sex. He has pleaded not guilty. The woman told jurors she traveled to California, Tennessee and West Virginia to be available for the now 74-year-old minister.
    In testimony, the woman said she began to have questions after Alamo graphically described what he had done to an 8-year-old girl holding a stuffed animal. She said Alamo told her she shouldn’t question what “the Lord told me to do.”

  8. SICK BASTARD!!!

  9. There is no outcry that Warren Jeffs is being picked on either. Comparing Tony Alamo who is one person to “The FLDS” which number in the thousands is misleading and absurd. Are the people who are members of Tony Alamo ministries all criminals?

    Tony Alamo minsitries published transcripts of DHS interviews with 4 girls from the Alamo church.
    http://www.alamoministries.com/content/english/children/transcriptgirls.html

    I don’t know if Alamo is guilty or not, I get the impression the Feds are after him because he is a wacky conspiracy nutter.
    Did you see the photo of that family? Good looking black family yet Alamo ministries is a hate group according to SPLC.

  10. At the federal prosecutor’s office in the Southern District of New York, the staff, over beer and pretzels, used to play a darkly humorous game. Junior and senior prosecutors would sit around, and someone would name a random celebrity—say, Mother Theresa or John Lennon. It would then be up to the junior prosecutors to figure out a plausible crime for which to indict him or her. The crimes were not usually rape, murder, or other crimes you’d see on Law & Order but rather the incredibly broad yet obscure crimes that populate the U.S. Code like a kind of jurisprudential minefield: Crimes like “false statements” (a felony, up to five years), “obstructing the mails” (five years), or “false pretenses on the high seas” (also five years). The trick and the skill lay in finding the more obscure offenses that fit the character of the celebrity and carried the toughest sentences. The, result, however, was inevitable: “prison time.”

    http://www.slate.com/id/2175730/entry/2175733/

    If the government doesn’t like you, they can find something to charge you with.

  11. There is probably a similar game played by defense lawyers that is equally absurd. Just because they play that mind game, doesn’t mean it would work.

    And if you are “marrying” 8 or 12 year olds, I hope like hell that they do exactly that, duane. Find something that will put the vermin UNDER the jail. Godspeed.

  12. “There is no outcry that Warren Jeffs is being picked on either. ”

    Excuse me? How many hundreds of posts have there been on the trib claiming that Warren is 100% innocent of anything illegal or immoral and it’s just persecution?

  13. “Are the people who are members of Tony Alamo ministries all criminals?”

    Well, I nominate the parents who sent their under aged daughters to him cause he had a swimming pool! I suspect most of his inner circle of supporters knew without a doubt that he was banging a harem of jail bait.

  14. “There is no outcry that Warren Jeffs is being picked on either. Comparing Tony Alamo who is one person to “The FLDS” which number in the thousands is misleading and absurd.”

    Duane, is the sky blue in your world? Not only has there been a vocal and vehement outcry by Warren Jeff’s minions about how “persecuted” he is and how “lies” got him convicted, but I believe you were one of those singing in the chorus.

    “Did you see the photo of that family? Good looking black family yet Alamo ministries is a hate group according to SPLC.”

    Blacks aren’t the only targets of “hate” groups. So are homosexuals, Jews, women, and just about any other group of human beings you choose to name. You really are a very narrow thinker, aren’t you?

  15. “In testimony, the woman said she began to have questions after Alamo graphically described what he had done to an 8-year-old girl holding a stuffed animal.”

    Thank God for her! Where are the same women among the FLDS? Under security cameras and barbed wire at YFZ? In a ‘house of hiding’?

  16. Internet sex crimes caseload skyrockets in Utah
    July 15th, 2009 @ 6:48am
    By Ben Winslow
    SALT LAKE CITY — Cases of internet sex predators and child pornography have skyrocketed in Utah to record-breaking levels, authorities said.

    The Utah Attorney General’s Internet Crimes Against Children (ICAC) task force said Tuesday that its caseload has risen 40 percent in the first six months of the year.

    “They’ve shockingly increased this year,” said Ken Wallentine, the Utah Attorney General’s Chief of Law Enforcement. “Last year at this time, we had made 32 arrests. Thus far this year in that same six month period, we’re at 76 arrests.”

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=7167792

    *************************
    It just so happens that Utah is 60.4% mormon… seems mormon men even those who are polygamists are depraved!

  17. Isn’t that why Pliggy was kicked out? Porn! Is he a sexual preditor? Duane you need to find better friends!

  18. Betty, there are hundreds who are saying the same thing about Alamo…that he is innocent.
    I’m talking about the general public perception, at this point in time Warren Jeffs is much more thoroughly hated then Tony Alamo in spite of the FLDS’s purported “PR machine”. Most people who defend the FLDS in general, have no love of WJeffs.

    “FLDS Texas” knows this thus she attempts to compare Tony Alamo the individual with the 10,000 member FLDS population. The more valid comparison would be with Tony Alamo and Warren Jeffs, but if she did that her whole thesis would fall apart.

  19. deputydog1, I’m sure that it is only the 39.6% non-Mormons who are doing such vile things. Heaven knows that the Mormon church leads only to sweetness, light, and fluffy bunnies for everyone!

  20. “Isn’t that why Pliggy was kicked out? Porn! Is he a sexual preditor? Duane you need to find better friends!”

    Deputydawg, so anyone who looks at porn is a sex predator?
    Well thanks for revealing your mindset.

  21. did I say that duane? Evidently FLDS believe that huh? Pliggy is no longer a member, had his wife taken away and married off to antoher man.

    duane, LOL, hundreds think alamo is innocent?? The man has been convicted once already. Did it stop him from illegal activity? NO!
    I hope the pervert rots in jail!!! And so do THOUSANDS OF OTHER PEOPLE!!! not hundreds.

  22. I think anyone who looks at child pornography is a predator. I think if most people who look at porn did more research on how it is made, they might stop looking at it.

  23. “Betty, there are hundreds who are saying the same thing about Alamo…that he is innocent.”

    What surveys are you reading? Everyone I know just goes “gross, what a sicko” and moves on to wondering whether or not Palin is going to run for office or fade into the wood work.

  24. “What surveys are you reading? Everyone I know just goes “gross, what a sicko”

    the “hundreds” are no doubt members of his congregration.
    Most who read the articles will of course say he is a “sicko”, I don’t know, maybe he is. I don’t take much stock in what the press says, they are frequently wrong.

    Deputydawg I don’t know what your problem is, but questioning whether one is a sex predator because they looked at porn inevitably leads one to wonder whether you consider those that look at porn as sex predators.

  25. Oh, so FLDS and their supporters don’t like that the FLDS are being compared to the Tony Alamo Ministries? Whats wrong? Their actions are EXACTLY the same, both the FLDS and the Tony Alamo Ministries profess that “God” commands their “prophet” do marry, rape and impregnate little girls and that they have the “religious right” to marry multiple women and little girls and that they have the “religious right” to rape and impregnate little girls. Both claim they are being “persecuted”. The Tony Alamo Ministries and the FLDS are EXACTLY the same.

  26. duane, of course you don’t believe documents, you turn a blind eye to evidence, you have since this all began. Are you CRAZY or just STUPID???

  27. Too bad Alamo [if/when convicted] can’t share a cell with WJ’s. They could compare notes on the life and times of a religious slime ball.

  28. “Most who read the articles will of course say he is a “sicko”, I don’t know, maybe he is. I don’t take much stock in what the press says, they are frequently wrong.”

    That’s your problem, you don’t read the articles, do the research, or take stock in anything more than your own opinion which is so wrong I can’t even begin to express how wrong it really is.

    And quit trying to pull us into a discussion about what defines a sexual predator. We know, you know and you refuse to see or even have the moxy to acknowledge the group of people you are defending, practice it every day and teach their children to do the same.

  29. Most states prohibit the possession of child pornography, including Utah. To see the relevant statutes, go here: http://www.moralityinmedia.org/nolc/.

    I agree with Betty that anyone who looks at child porn is a predator. Creation of child porn is directly tied to consumption.

  30. On the stand Wednesday, the 30-year-old woman said she was married to Alamo at age 15 after he rejected a request from a boy her same age to marry her. She said Alamo told her family that the Lord had told him to take her as his wife, and that she feared her she and her relatives would be shunned if she did not submit.

    “We didn’t have anywhere to go,” said the woman, whose parents and grandparents were also Alamo followers.

    After she agreed, the witness said, Alamo took her hand asked if she would take him as her lawfully wedded husband. He kissed her on the forehead and, three days later, had sex with her for the first time.

    The “marriage” took place at Alamo’s compound but was not formally registered with the state. The Associated Press generally does not identify alleged victims of sex crimes.

    Prosecutors spent much of Wednesday going through a series of photographs of Alamo with women from his compounds. At one point, Assistant U.S. Attorney Kyra Jenner asked the witness, “Who is the girl on the right wearing the Barbie shirt?”

    The witness said it was the 8-year-old that Alamo had taken “as his wife.”

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090715/ap_on_re_us/us_evangelist_child_abuse

  31. Does anyone find it ODD that, Deseret News, Ksl, and Salt Lake Tribune don’t have ONE story about Tony Alamo Trial?

  32. #

    Too bad Alamo [if/when convicted] can’t share a cell with WJ’s. They could compare notes on the life and times of a religious slime ball.

    Soozie said this on July 15, 2009 at 1:53 PM

    Hmmmm….two profits in a pod. Will the real profit step forward.

    Anonoymous

  33. Deputy Dawg, do you suppose the Utah papers are hoping that if they ignore the Tony Alamo trial (and that fact that he’s getting “fixed” for the underage “marriage” thing), it’ll just go away?

  34. texasrattle, im thinking with all the smooozing going around in Utah and principal voices,,yup they are hoping it will go away, cause if Alamo is found guilty,,, it;s pert near possible, law enforcement will start enforcing the laws of this country!! Hopefully

  35. Wouldn’t THAT be a mackerel to give thanks for.

  36. duane said “the “hundreds” are no doubt members of his congregration.”

    Well, duh.

  37. The main difference between Tony Alamo and the members of the YFZ ranch is in the Alamo case we have suspected victims willing to testify against him making the evidence less critical.

  38. Victim testimony is evidence.

    There is plenty of evidence of the crimes committed against children in the FLDS, too. It is all documented in excrutiating detail. It is not because there is not quality evidence against FLDS that those crimes are not being prosecuted. It is a political decision based on perception and popularity and the criminals’ relative resources to fight.

  39. So, Alin—the “suspected victim’s” word is LESS valuable as evidence? You get enough “suspected victim’s” together and you’ve got a pretty good case. [“Suspected victims.”…gotta love how that diminishes them as people who have been harmed by this evil man.]

  40. Quotes to Ponder

    Comments from Those Involved with the YFZ Children of FLDS Polygamists and Pushed Out of the Case
    [Excerpts from an article in the San Angelo Times April 12, 2009]

    · Childress, an attorney with CPS from Austin
    “It had already been established my opinion was not wanted,” Childress said. “I won’t lend my name and legal reputation pursuing a legal strategy I adamantly oppose.”
    ~Charles G. Childress
    · “What they wanted me to do was go forward and non-suit the cases and do basically what they’ve done since I left – which is what I refused to do,” Childress said. “I don’t understand why Warren Jeffs with 53 wives is still the legal father of however many hundred kids in any state.”
    ~Charles G. Childress

    · He said the situation became untenable as pressure increased from Austin to shut down cases, even ones with significant concerns.
    · Childress resigned Oct. 23, exactly three months after CPS asked him to take charge of the case.

    · In his place, the agency turned to Schmidt, whose tenure as the managing attorney lasted, he said, just one meeting.

    · Schmidt, an attorney with CPS from Austin

    · “They wanted to hear the direction I thought the cases ought to go,” Schmidt said, and when he told them he would seek termination on several cases, “they basically told me I was relieved of my duties.”
    ~Jeff Schmidt
    · “There were cases that needed to be non-suited,” he said, “but they were non-suiting left and right. … We did things in these cases we never do.”
    ~Jeff Schmidt
    · “There were a handful we wanted to take forward and terminate their parental rights,” he said. “There is a mountain of evidence against these people. …Some of the cases, absolutely we should have non-suited – but not near the amount that we did.”
    `~Jeff Schmidt

    · “I also thought at some point I might convince them otherwise,” he said. “I had a glimmer of hope.”
    ~~Jeff Schmidt

    · But when DFPS officials asked Schmidt what course he thought was appropriate, and he told them he planned to follow Childress’ approach, he said he was dismissed from the case.

    · “We had some serious differences of opinion based on applicable law and what was in the best interests of the children,” Schmidt said. “We completely failed to protect those children. That’s my opinion.”
    ~~Jeff Schmidt

    Children’s Advocacy Center of Tom Green County
    [CASA]
    [Excerpts from an article in the San Angelo Times March 29, 2009]

    · Ripping into CPS for what they described as an inexplicable desire to drop the case as quickly as possible, Brown and her employees said the agency underestimated in its final assessment the amount of abuse that took place at the ranch. As well, they said CPS non-suited children without adequately determining whether they were truly safe from the prospect of forced underage marriages.

    · “At some point, CPS decided to turn a corner and just get out,” Brown said. “That’s when everybody stopped getting looked at.”
    ~ CASA Executive Director Debra Brown

    · Members of state and national CASA organizations arrived to provide help and advice about increased security as staffers received threats over their perceived role in the removal.

    · If CPS failed in its investigation of alleged abuse at the ranch, the women said, it was by caring too much about public opinion – to the point that the agency, they said, began dismissing cases indiscriminately.

    “If (local CPS) had been doing this case, it would have been done completely different, but it went to Austin, to the bureaucrats.”
    “The whole about-face was kind of weird.”
    “Childress left, then Jeff left, then so did the plan”, she said.

    “Are they safe? Well, I don’t know. I still have doubts about that.”
    ~ CASA Executive Director Debra

  41. More from the Tony Alamo article referenced above. It really starts to sound familiar after reading a few sentences about what happened today in this trial. Is there a vocational school somewhere these guys attend to learn to be a “pedophile prophet”?

    Defense lawyers say the government has targeted the ministry, and Alamo says the trial is part of a Vatican-led conspiracy against him.

    The woman said children at the compound were taught an Alamo-approved curriculum and that they were separated by gender by fifth grade.

    “He said he didn’t want, as he put it, any hanky-panky between boys and girls,” the woman said.

    In her earlier testimony, the woman said she felt forced to become one of Alamo’s brides at age 15 after he rejected a request from a boy the same age to marry her. Alamo said the Lord had told him to take her as his wife, and that she feared she and her family would be shunned if she did not submit, she testified.

    “We didn’t have anywhere to go,” said the woman, whose parents and grandparents were also Alamo followers.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31920103/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

  42. It just so happens that Utah is 60.4% mormon… seems mormon men even those who are polygamists are depraved!

    deputydog1 said this on July 15, 2009 at 12:31 PM

    Not only that deputydog1, Utah ranks one of the highest states for Ponzi schemes. The schemers like to prey on the members of their LDS wards (their church “time slot” congregation who are also their close neighbors). So they have a ready supply of trusting people to cheat.

    So we have porn and ponzi schemes in abundance in Utah. Scary pastimes for members of the one true church.

  43. The main difference between Tony Alamo and the members of the YFZ ranch is in the Alamo case we have suspected victims willing to testify against him making the evidence less critical.
    Alinusara10 said this on July 15, 2009 at 5:09 PM

    Yes Alin, you are right that the Tony Alamo trial has a brave victim coming forward to testify about the abuses she endured by the pervert. That is an issue with prosecuting the crimes of the FLDS – finding a brave victim willing to come forward and testify in court.

    I guess Warren did a more powerful job of putting the absolute fear of eternal damnation into the FLDS victims not to testify than Tony Alamo did.

    Tony must have skipped class when they taught “eternal salvation” manipulation skills that day in the pedophile prophet vocational school.

  44. Pretty comparable manipulation between Tony’s and Warren’s techniques here, too.

    The witness also testified that she left the compound briefly in 2005 after Alamo forced her to say falsely that she had had sex with her father and another woman. She returned after failing to adjust to life on the outside.

    “I was born and raised there. It was all I knew. I was scared,” she said through tears. “I wondered if I was making the right decision. I was told that if I left I would burn in hell.”

  45. Yep, so all we have to figure out now is whether abuse is a protected religion in America, like the folks in Utah and Arizona believe it is.

    IMO: Abuse is not a religion.

  46. You have forgotten the presumption of being presumed innocent until proven guilty. getting a fair trial from jurors picked from an area that hates him will be difficult. I believe Warren Jeffs is innocent of most of the charges against him. Im not as certain about Tony Alamo.

  47. Nosugrof, someone can be actually innocent or guilty and then turn up as something else in court. People have even confessed or bragged about a crime and gotten off.

    Hey, duh-wayne. Someone thinks Jeffs is innocent! Hello!

  48. The man differences between Alamo and FLDS appear to me to be money and blood.

  49. I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”

    –Susan B. Anthony 1896

    FLDS and Tony Alamo work under the same deciet and lies!!

  50. You have forgotten the presumption of being presumed innocent until proven guilty. getting a fair trial from jurors picked from an area that hates him will be difficult. I believe Warren Jeffs is innocent of most of the charges against him. Im not as certain about Tony Alamo.

    Thomas Forguson said this on July 16, 2009 at 6:39 AM

    =======================

    C’MON TOMMY! Jeffs was FOUND GUILTY so you can DROP WORRYING ABOUT the presumption of innocence! HE IS GUILTY – Sentenced to TWO LIFE TERMS !!!!

  51. Wearing a dark suit jacket and white blouse, with straight brown hair falling below her shoulders, the woman testified Wednesday that she lived at Alamo’s house with several other wives, including five younger than 18. The wives helped Alamo prepare his recorded sermons and religious tracts, took turns spending the night with him and gave him massages, sometimes using “massage machines,” the woman testified.

    The wives were not allowed to leave Alamo’s house without permission, and they were punished for supposed misdeeds by being beaten or forced to fast, the woman testified. At one point, she said, Alamo pressured her into say- ing she had had sex with her own father and another of Alamo’s wives.

    When Alamo made the announcement about the 8-yearold girl, who is also an alleged victim in the case and is expected to testify, the woman said she pointed out that Alamo had preached that girls must begin menstruating before they can be married. She also noted that Alamo was married to the girl’s aunt.

    “He told me to shut up, and that I shouldn’t question what the Lord tells him to do,” the woman testified. She said Alamo said he would just divorce the girl’s aunt.

    “I questioned that – how could you be divorcing [the aunt] when just a couple days earlier, she was in your bedroom?” the woman testified. “He just told me to shut up.”

  52. Damn doesn’t this ALL sound familiar???

  53. Ill tell you what,,followers of scum bags like this BETTER start questioning!!!!

  54. While I am beyond GLAD Alamo is in trial and looks to be TOAST

    I am WONDERING what took so flipping LONG!??????

    This guy obviously – and just like Warre3n – had gotten away with SO MUCH for SO LONG he felt immune.

    In the meantime lots of children suffer.

  55. Alamo has been to prison once already!! It just got worse once he got out!

  56. That is an issue with prosecuting the crimes of the FLDS – finding a brave victim willing to come forward and testify in court.
    ==========================================================
    I dunno. I thought Teresa Steed was pretty brave not letting Texas steamroll her into letting her baby have his 4th amendment rights violated.

  57. DD

    I dont think he will ever be free again.

    Is this the reward of the over eager cult leaders in America?

    Too often, too often.

  58. Tony Alamo, Yisrayl Hawkins and the FLDS are just the tip of the iceberg of religious dictators and child molestors in the USA.

  59. Allinusare

    In UT and AZ LE has allowed the FLDS to intimidate and force recantings of numerous rape accusers.

    For one, not only will the FLDS damn them to hell, but their family will be cast out too.

    So the abuse has continued in the SW nearly unfettered.

    But it looks like Texas has roped some free range bulls – and will make steers out of them!

  60. Ali

    “I thought Teresa Steed was pretty brave not letting Texas steamroll her into letting her baby have his 4th amendment rights violated”.

    Teresa Steed simply protected the criminals she answers to. I don’t see that as bravery. I see it at best as evidence of severe mind control, and at worst protection of criminals and their activities.

    Maybe a few days in the hooskow for failure to comply with court orders would give her time to decide if she really wants to defy Texas law?

  61. Look, Alamo even has his own version of Street and Pliggy!

    http://www.tonyalamonews.com/category/picture-gallery
    Former Member & Fellow Conspiracy Theorist
    Richards claims no affiliation or connection with the Tony Alamo Ministries but he was found to be on the Alamo Ministries website defending the group and Tony Alamo . He also made several YouTube videos that blasted the government and declared Alamo and his followers innocent of all child abuse charges, regardless of the facts.

  62. Maybe a few days in the hooskow for failure to comply with court orders would give her time to decide if she really wants to defy Texas law?
    ==============================================================
    Sure if you want to go that direction. At one time you was defying the law if you didn’t move to the back of the bus to let a white man sit down.

  63. Boots

    That ALAMO site appears to have been taken down suddenly!

  64. I agree about Teresa Steed, that was not bravery. And if everything is kosher in their group, why not allow the testing?

    Did she have something to hide? Oh no……. she did. They all do.

    Its called “hiding your criminal behavior and those around you.”

    And for the record, why don’t you concern yourself with the rights they are denied by their parents and caregivers at the direction of the “priesthood”?

    Those children start off innocent, but they sure don’t end up that way by the time they make it to adulthood.

    They are either a mess emotionally or they are blindly following some idiot’s request to marry young, keep pregnant, and above all “keep sweet”.

  65. I agree about Teresa Steed, that was not bravery. And if everything is kosher in their group, why not allow the testing?
    =============================================================
    If everything is kosher why not allow DNA testing for every man, woman, and child living in the US.
    =============================================================
    And for the record, why don’t you concern yourself with the rights they are denied by their parents and caregivers at the direction of the “priesthood”?
    ============================================================
    I’m more concerned about the rights afforded every single one of us by the US Constitution taken away by the government under the pretense of looking for crime.
    ============================================================
    They are either a mess emotionally or they are blindly following some idiot’s request to marry young, keep pregnant, and above all “keep sweet”.
    ============================================================
    I dunno. The vast majority seems to marry well into their 20s; much like the US population, some of the families appear to be larger the average while some seem smaller, and nothing wrong with “keeping sweet”. Jesus had a phrase for keeping sweet calling it “turn the other cheek”.

  66. Stamp,

    I’m not having any problem getting to the site. Maybe the link I copied was bad?

  67. Ali, you obviously are either a polygamist or a wannabe polygamist. Your ability to be completely blind to the crimes committed against children gives you away.

    Prosecution is quite different than persecution. The only people that have a really difficult time seeing this difference are the people who feel they have a right to break the laws of our nation with impunity, as long as their religious faith and doctrine say it is “okay”.

    Keep coming here, darlin’. We all enjoy your displays of misinformation and misinterpretation of the freedoms provided by our Constitution.

    People like you make things easy for us. People like you, who think a hundred + page rambling closing argument is more scholarly than a simple reiteration of the simple facts, and the law.

    I noticed you didn’t answer my question after you stated the prosecutions closing looked like it had been written by a first year law school graduate…so, Ali, I’ll ask it again. Are you a law school graduate?

    What vast past experience in the area of American law led you to take such a position?

  68. Ali, I’ll ask it again. Are you a law school graduate?

    What vast past experience in the area of American law led you to take such a position?
    =============================================================
    Another question I would pose is are you a behavioral psychologist? What area of expertise would lead you to believe that Teresa Steed is under some sort of mind control. Do you have a bachelor’s degree in clinical psychology. Have you written any dissertations?

  69. you said:
    “dunno. The vast majority seems to marry well into their 20s; much like the US population, some of the families appear to be larger the average while some seem smaller, and nothing wrong with “keeping sweet”. Jesus had a phrase for keeping sweet calling it “turn the other cheek”.”

    The vast majority are poor and struggling to feed their families. There were not any marriages in Short Creek for a time, Warren said none were to be performed, so no they don’t marry well into their twenty’s. You are misinformed.

    If everything is kosher why not allow DNA testing for every man, woman, and child living in the US.

    Because we are not talking about every man woman and child in the US, we are talking about THIS GROUP. and they need the testing and a whole lot more.

    And there was no pretense of looking for a crime. There was crime. That is why the children were taken.

  70. Ali,
    “Another question I would pose is are you a behavioral psychologist”?

    No, Ali, I’m not. See how easy it was to get an answer from me?

    Actually, I simply think she has become the criminal she was raised to be. I mentioned the “mid control” factor as a possible “out” for her, in her defense some day. That was, in case you missed it, a display of mercy.

    While others seem anxious to exonerate the women of this criminal organization, holding them innocent and blameless for their crimes “because they don’t know any better”, I don’t buy it.

    My position is that every last adult is responsible for their behavior, decisions and actions.

    The vast personal experience I have gained, in these last 5 years of investigating the FLDS led me to make this conclusion.

    So again, I ask you, more for my own entertainement than anything else, what is your experience and background in the area of U.S. law?

  71. Because we are not talking about every man woman and child in the US, we are talking about THIS GROUP.
    =====================================================
    Exactly.
    =====================================================
    and they need the testing and a whole lot more.
    =====================================================
    Really? You are going to try to convince me that Teresa Steed doesn’t know her own baby?
    =====================================================
    so no they don’t marry well into their twenty’s. You are misinformed.
    =====================================================
    I read interviews and saw the bishop list.
    =====================================================
    And there was no pretense of looking for a crime. There was crime.
    =======================================================
    It’s possible. We got probable cause for indictments but haven’t been the stage yet of beyond reasonable doubt needed for conviction.
    ==========================================================
    That is why the children were taken.
    =========================================================
    Actually and this is the strangest thing yet, most of the children was taken because Angie Voss saw a SWAT APC and got scared; per her sworn testimony.

  72. My position is that every last adult is responsible for their behavior, decisions and actions.
    ============================================================
    But see my friend this is where you are making an adult out of a minor. Teresa Steed, as far as I know is only 17. I find it extremely disturbing that people want to treat, and have treated suspected sexual assault victims as criminals with threats of criminal penalties.

    And no my friend I’m not a lawyer. I’m an Constitutional law hobbiest. My argument being, you don’t have to have served in the civil war in order to be well versed in civil war battles.

  73. well of course some families are larger in Flds than other families. You forget Alinusara, the prophet, takes one man out, takes his family and gives it to another man who already has family. Like Wendell Nielson who has 30 wives! Geez, I can’t beleive YOU are trying to justify this nonsense!

  74. Alinusara if your a constitutional lobbyist, Ill eat my HAT!

    Constitutionally, Theorcracy is forbidden in the United States, just like Polygamy. You would allow ONE person to make total decisions for peoples lives and say it’s okay!
    Constitutionally, every man woman and child has a right to freedom, in a therocracy there is NO freedom. So you are defending NO freedoms for Flds.

  75. Shurtleff is in financial debt.. Medical bills, 153,000 dollars worth, wonder if FLDS made a deal with him to pay that debt if they help them get UEPtrust back?

  76. Boots –

    The link appears good as it was also found on Google and that path failed as well.

    The Alamo site appears to have been taken down. – Admin

  77. DD, Ali said he is a constitutional law “hobbiest” not “lobbyist”, LOL. He makes a “hobby” of mangling the constitution.

  78. so no they don’t marry well into their twenty’s. You are misinformed.
    =====================================================
    I read interviews and saw the bishop list.

    Then you also know Elissa Wall was forced to marry at 14. So was Ruby Jessop. You think that’s all? How many are too scared to come forward?
    There has been example after example of forced under-age marriages. You can argue that bishop list all you want , but the proof is in the pudding.

    Their rights haven’t been trampled on, mine have.

    As a taxpayer, I am not comfortable with their large families with grown men that never advanced beyond junior high , having to get on welfare (which my tax dollars pay for) simply because the “prophet” said no more schooling and you have a bunch of hungry mouths to feed.

    As a concerned citizen, I expect everyone to follow the same laws I have to. They are not following any law, they are too busy following Warren’s law. I was not aware that was allowed! May I make up my own laws and just follow them under the guise of religion? What a joke.

    How horrible you’re taking up for a bunch of child molesters & liars. We are thru giving the benefit of the doubt, Remember? we tried that in 1953 when they promised and signed stating they would not practice polygamy anymore. It doesn’t work. Now they can pay the piper for following their cult beliefs.

  79. The “bishop’s list” listed the girls age at the time the list was FILLED out not her age at the time she was forced to marry.

  80. Ditto!!

  81. Alinusara wrote “I dunno. I thought Teresa Steed was pretty brave not letting Texas steamroll her into letting her baby have his 4th amendment rights violated.”

    Dude. They had a warrant. Get over it.

  82. You’re a very quick study Mississippigirl. I’d say you have pierced the religiosity veil that these folks live behind fairly adeptly and now know that dragging their rotten belief system into the public arena will mean their undoing as a formal crime organization and pseudo-religious fanatical sect. Many Press and Public figures have failed to grasp your obvious acumen to lock onto the most salient aspects to this FLDS Church lies, ruses and trickery. I thoroughly enjoy reading your insightful views of these events.

  83. Gee Ali, if you’re going to use the New Testament to try to justify the crime of polygamy I think you’re going to get into trouble.

    I attended Sunday School, a lot. Jesus answered that question by telling them that once people got to Heaven, there was NO MARRIAGE. According to him people would become like the Angels, basically sexless, so obviously there is no need for procreation in Heaven….nor 70 virgins, nor spiritual wives constantly giving birth.

    I’d say as a Rabbi, he was sticking to the truth as he understood it from the Torah. Good for him!

  84. It was made clear, the court just wanted DNA from Teresa Steeds baby Alinusara. If she was so brave, why did she decieve the court, by showing up with someone elses baby for the test?

  85. “I find it extremely disturbing that people want to treat, and have treated suspected sexual assault victims as criminals with threats of criminal penalties”.

    Ali, Teresa’s parents should then be held accountable for the refusal, specifically, her mother. And once she turns 18, then she should be held accountable. Matter of fact, maybe that’s exactly what the prosecutor is waiting for. You never know…

  86. Look, I don’t believe in locking up little girls who were impregnated by ADULT men. But I believe these girls have a right to live their lives without threats. People need to understand, you don’t have to threaten physical harm to threaten a person.
    In Teresa Steeds case, All Willie, or Her mother had to do is say, If you allow them to take DNA from the baby, they will take the baby, or they will put Nathan in jail and our family will be kicked out and it will be yours fault. We won’t have anything, no where to live, we will be damned.
    Adults do JUST those kinds of things to children! It becomes the girls fault in the girls mind, and so she will agree to anything leadership tells her to do.
    Don’t think for ONE second, that girl willingly allow her 3month old baby to be taken out of state without some kind of threat to her.

  87. DD,

    We don’t even know if her baby is still alive. I guess nobody cares either, since the AG’s office basically said, ‘Oh you’ve brought the wrong baby in, I guess we’ll just drop the matter now and let the priesthood win, AGAIN’.

    Can you imagine the conversation they had after she got home? ‘See, Teresa, the prophet was right. They will leave us alone now. G-d is protecting us’.

  88. “I dunno. I thought Teresa Steed was pretty brave not letting Texas steamroll her into letting her baby have his 4th amendment rights violated.”

    There’s a 4th Amendmant right to refuse to honor a legally obtained warrant? There’s a “right” to withhold evidence in a felony crime? Where did they put that in the Constitution?

  89. Rebeckah, some people make up the constitution as they go along! LOL

  90. Ali is right to keep her/his constitutional musings a hobby.

    IOW: Don’t quit yer day job, sugar.

  91. I’d like to know what rights we have as citizens to be free from child molesting, embezzling, wife stealing religious charlatans.

  92. Well Ali did admit that it is his “hobby” to mangle the constitution, and gee what fun we get to see all the ways he mangles it.

  93. Betty, if more people turned in or testified against molesters, stealers and religous charlatans,, we actually might not have this sort of issue!

  94. Bruce Wisan has filed another memorandom to Judge Lindberg today about the heifers that were sold.

    http://166.70.44.68/blogs/plurallife/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Wisan-motion.pdf

  95. Thank you, cajIM! I can’t say enough how much I enjoy reading all of your posts , all of you.

    You have discuss so many things I wonder about and everyone has really opened my eyes to what is going on in our system and our country.

    I don’t mind saying that I have laughed & cried reading the posts.

    Thank you to all of you and FLDS TEXAS especially for having this blog.

    With all of us together, we can & will change things. I know it & I believe it.

  96. I just read it DD1. I’ve come to the conclusion that the people trying to run the FLDS are clinically insane. (Insanity is a hobby of mine.) 😉

  97. Seems Tony Alamo supports FLDS and they Support him , now isnt that interesting?

    http://www.alamoministries.com/content/english/index.html

    scroll down the page to Pastor Alamo stood behind the church before the raid

  98. stood behind FLDS before the raid

  99. Then you can click comments, and all the Mudpucky followers posted of course with goofy bill mudpucky at the lead of the pack

  100. 😆 The Pope is HOMOSEXUAL?!? Does he know this or is it a private revelation Tony got from his good buddy God?

  101. HAHAHAH!!! 🙂

  102. Dude. They had a warrant. Get over it.
    ===================================
    Hehe they had a warrant for Sarah Jessop. A fictional character. Now the state has to disprove fruits from a poisonous vine.

  103. Remember? we tried that in 1953 when they promised and signed stating they would not practice polygamy anymore.
    ======================================================
    Can you show me where any of the men currently indicted signed some sort of note in 1953?

  104. It was made clear, the court just wanted DNA from Teresa Steeds baby Alinusara. If she was so brave, why did she decieve the court, by showing up with someone elses baby for the test?
    =========================================================
    Because she can.

  105. “Don’t argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference.”

  106. There’s a 4th Amendmant right to refuse to honor a legally obtained warrant? There’s a “right” to withhold evidence in a felony crime? Where did they put that in the Constitution?
    ========================================================
    /shrug nice little warrant since Texas proved itself incapable of enforcing it.

  107. So, Alinusara, your claim to be neutral and simply looking for the truth are just as false as the claims of Shurtleff that underage marriages are done with? Who all is surprised?

  108. “/shrug nice little warrant since Texas proved itself incapable of enforcing it.”

    By all means, lets throw out any pretense of a rule of law and return to mob rule. I’m sure the FLDS would fare well under it.

  109. Alinsura isn’t nuetral Rebeckah, she’s a LIAR!!

  110. So, Alinusara, your claim to be neutral and simply looking for the truth are ……
    =====================================================
    No my friend. My claim is that constitutional law is to be obeyed at all times. It’s the highest law of the land and it’s discomforting when government officials, those who are deigned to protect us, totally ignore us.

  111. Ali said :
    “Hehe they had a warrant for Sarah Jessop. A fictional character. Now the state has to disprove fruits from a poisonous vine.”

    “Only when they got there, they realized there were alot more Sarah Jessop’s than they realized, false name? maybe ,but only a false story where Sarah Jessop the fictional character is concerned.

    Its the same story over and over. If they had a warrant for Elissa or Ruby, would you feel the same ? KNOWING those two were forced? what does it matter Sarah, Elissa , Ruby? there are hundreds of girls in that same situation.

    “Can you show me where any of the men currently indicted signed some sort of note in 1953?”

    No ma’am, they won’t be given the same option. We learned our lesson the first time. But, I bet you can write to them when they are in prison and ASK them if they want to sign something. You make up the paperwork and file it where the sun doesn’t shine, ok?

    “Because she can.”

    No, you mean because she was forced to. The priethood rules, remember?

  112. From the Alamo Trial 1hr ago

    Published: 07/16/2009 A 14-year-old girl exchanged wedding vows with Tony Alamo while he was an inmate in Texarkana’s Minimum Security, Federal Correctional Institution, according to Thursday morning testimony in his trial. The witness is now 25 but testified she and Alamo exchanged wedding vows in the FCI waiting area.

    Her marriage with Alamo was consummated on July 17, 1998, a date she wrote down in her Bible afterwards, she testified. In the mid-to-late-’90s, Alamo was serving time in FCI on federal tax evasion charges. The woman testified she also was fondled by Alamo in the FCI waiting area.
    *************************

    This is she same thing that has happened to Flds underage girls.

  113. Ali,

    I can’t decide, are you trying to take up for the Constitution or just the child molesters and liars? Please be specific.

  114. There was several sarah on that ranch, one Sara Barlow, but she wasn’t underage…. The warrants were good, and they will stand Ali, get used to it!

    The constitution doesn’t protect religous practices that are against the law, no matter how you misconstrue it Ali-Oop!

  115. Ali, knows exactly what they believe don’t ya ali???

    This was posted by Ali today.

    think it’s important that none of the men spend one day in prison. The goal here is for Texas to never, ever, again blatently violate the civil rights of a group of individuals as they did so recently. The only way the message will sink in concretely is if all evidence is ruled inadmissible before trial.

    4. Alinusara10 on July 16th, 2009 at 10:39 am

  116. What the idiots and haters fail to realize that if the evidence stands then not a US citizen having children is safe in their home anymore. Evidence of a crime would mean the the search was justified. Evidence of no crime would mean officers saying “Oops, our bad”.

    28. Alinusara10 on July 9th, 2009 at 8:10 pm

  117. why are you even on this blog Ali-Oop?

  118. (I) think it’s important that none of the men spend one day in prison. The goal here is for Texas to never, ever, again blatently violate the civil rights of a group of individuals as they did so recently. The only way the message will sink in concretely is if all evidence is ruled inadmissible before trial.
    =============================================================
    Yep, it’s me. Don’t like it, not my problem.
    ==============================================================
    Ali,

    I can’t decide, are you trying to take up for the Constitution or just the child molesters and liars? Please be specific
    ===========================================================
    /bangs head into the wall numerous times. The Constitution.

  119. Blatantly violate the civil rights of a group of child molesters?

    Those prairie dresses must be blinding you Alinusara, I thought being the pastel colors that wouldn’t happen , but (sigh) I see it did.

    Look past the picture that has been painted Ali. I’m all about defending my rights as an individual and in a group, but if anyone in my group was marrying children, giving them no choice whatsoever about anything, abusing & molesting them, I would turn them in immediately.

    What does that say about you as a person that you could care less that the children were not being taken care of properly & abused? Do you care about the boy with all the fractures in his young body? Do you care about the 13 year old that gave birth in a body that is not thru growing? Do you care about all the kids that have no idea who mommy and daddy are?
    Do you care about Ruby who has never been given a choice or an opportunity to leave with her kids?
    What about Elissa? Has she EVER seen her mom and sisters since she left?

  120. “Only when they got there, they realized there were alot more Sarah Jessop’s than they realized, false name? maybe ,but only a false story where Sarah Jessop the fictional character is concerned.
    ===============================================================
    Pffft. Less then 10 years ago I could have had signed a search warrant based upon “Jen”, “Jenny”, “Jennifer”, “J’fer”, you fill in the last name here.
    ===============================================================
    why are you even on this blog Ali-Oop?
    ===============================================================
    Just to piss you off.
    ===============================================================
    There was several sarah on that ranch, one Sara Barlow, but she wasn’t underage….
    ================================================================
    Yep, No Sarah Barlow. Age 16 with a 2 year old baby and pregnant with another baby.

  121. Look past the picture that has been painted Ali. I’m all about defending my rights as an individual and in a group, but if anyone in my group was marrying children, giving them no choice whatsoever about anything, abusing & molesting them, I would turn them in immediately.
    ===========================================================
    I applaud you for that.
    ===========================================================
    What does that say about you as a person that you could care less that the children were not being taken care of properly & abused?
    ==========================================================
    Trust me that I’m not uncaring. Our founding fathers spent time at Valley Forge with frostbitten feet bleeding into the snow establishing our constitution. Any deviance after that is an effront to their sacrifice.

  122. And I assure you , we are not haters or idiots by a long shot.
    Those terms only apply to those that come on the board and have no idea what they are talking about because they’re so busy defending RIGHTS they conveniently leave out the abuse.

    You think Merrill is running around trying to suppress evidence taken at the ranch because the evidence shows nothing?

  123. Oh, yes, there is a Sarah Barlow, right age, has a child. Her husband, however is not Dale Barlow, it’s Daniel Barlow.

    Depending upon her birth date, the age given in the phone calls could be correct, but it might be a year off. I believe her husband’s name was Daniel. It’s in both the bishop’s list and the dictations of Warren Jeffs (her marriage assignment and age at the time of the marriage), and she was listed in the Bishop’s list as living at the ranch.

    I have posted this before, but the apologists just go blank, don’t look it up, forget I ever said it and go on talking about how horrible it is that the government is making a conspiracy against these innocent people just because they are different. There IS a Sarah. Look it up yourself.

  124. mississippi girl, let me translate this “Our founding fathers spent time at Valley Forge with frostbitten feet bleeding into the snow establishing our constitution. Any deviance after that is an effront to their sacrifice.” for you –

    the sacrifices of men is all that’s important. Screw the women and children. Literally if you like. Say God sent you.

  125. “You think Merrill is running around trying to suppress evidence taken at the ranch because the evidence shows nothing?”

    Good call.

  126. From today’s AP article about Tony Alamo,

    Alamo told her about the government judicial system:
    “This was the courtroom of Satan and we were in the courtroom of God” with Alamo, she told jurors.

    There’s another coinkeydink. Great minds think alike.

  127. The simple truth that the Ali’s of this world don’t want to accept is that the Constitution doesn’t mean what they want it to mean. There is NO Constitutional right to break the laws of the land and claim “God said I could”. And Ali, just an FYI, Benjamin Franklin was just one of the Founding Fathers who said specifically that. So keep your emotional metaphors — I’ll stick with the knowledge that children have basic human rights too, no matter how much you want to believe their parents “own” them. (Pssst, slavery is no longer leagl in America, not even between parents and children.)

  128. “Trust me that I’m not uncaring. Our founding fathers spent time at Valley Forge with frostbitten feet bleeding into the snow establishing our constitution. Any deviance after that is an effront to their sacrifice.”

    Your uncaring when you care more about the rights of those men than the children that were and still are being abused with NO RIGHTS.

    Don’t applaud Ali, Stand by us. You can take up for the constitution all day long but when it comes to children paying the price for those adults “rights” , then enough is enough.

  129. Do you care about Ruby’s rights as much as you do those horrible men that have been indicted?

    Does she have the right to leave? Yes.
    Does she have the right to take her children? Yes.
    Does she have the right to not have a baby once a year and tire her poor little body out? Yes.
    Have her rights been taken away by the very group that you defend? Yes.

  130. A real man doesn’t share his penis with multiple women regardless their belief. And a woman doesn’t share her vagina with multiple men regardless her beleif.
    You cannot become one flesh when you have multiple wives!!
    And it has been proven over and over, in Polygamy, the “husband” has a favorite (or one wife) he is more committed to than the others. There is NO way a human being, can share the intimacy of another, when it is shared with many!

  131. And if you believe that a MAN doesn’t sexually enjoy the orgasm he gets and how easy it is for him to get it your sadly mistaken.
    A man doesn’t have to have romance, or tenderness to get an orgasm, a woman does. And a woman who says sharing her husband with other women is a LIAR!
    And a MAN who tells you religious polygamy isn’t about sex, is a LIAR!

  132. A woman who says she enjoys sharing her husband with other women is a Liar!

  133. Women need a reason to have sex, (therefore they chose polygamy), men just need a place ( and how many compounds do they have to spread the wives out?) MANY.

    And every interview I have EVER seen on polygamy, I have never never seen the women smile, look happy, rejoice in their situation, or show joy at all.

    They look miserable, act miserable and portray miserable.

    Even when their in the prairie dresses with braided up hair.

  134. ::snort!:::

    DD, remind me to send you a AAAP T-shirt someday when I can fford it, lol!

    Front: You want to come down here to Texas, decriminalize polygamy and take away my right to be my husband’s only living equal? [Insert Gonzales flag] COME AND TAKE IT

  135. They want to suppress the evidence because they are horrified at all of us seeing the evidence, otherwise, if you life is so great , SHARE THE JOY.

    Merrill,

    I know that LE notated everything on red legal pads, and I know that Warren doesn’t approve of red but it’s just not a good reason to try and have it suppressed. We like red out here.

    Sincerely,
    The Public

  136. DD, that was great. 🙂 Penis discussions are always enlightening, don’t ya think 🙂

  137. As long as we’re on the subject of penises…

    The U.N., as well as the WHO, will tell you straight up that the AIDS epidemic was spread so quickly and widely due in part to the cultural practice of polygamy on the African continent.

    And again, speaking of penises and where they’ve been, perhaps you could talk to Carolyn Jessop who talked about fighting constant yeast infections, because they were repeatedly being passed from one concubine to another…via Merill’s penis.

    I’ll give everyone time to go puke now;)

  138. Hey Boots, how much those t-shirts cost? Put a $2.00 mark up on them and let us know where we can send the checks.

  139. Yup, I remember Carolyn talking about that! Of course most of these men are out of state working for weeks at a time, who KNOWS who they Screwed while they were gone! No telling what some of them gave thier wives.

  140. Sorry bout the P word and the V word, but I believe in being anatomically correct.

  141. Ali’s agruement about the constitution being supreme sounds a lot like the arguements pliggy used to make. That is, they would obey the laws of the land only when those laws meet the flds constitutional test. Beliefs like this lead to anarchy.

  142. why are you even on this blog Ali-Oop?
    ===============================================================
    Just to piss you off.
    ===============================================================

    Alinusara10 said this on July 16, 2009 at 3:56 PM

    Ali, what you say on this blog does not make me feel pissed off. But it does make me feel pity for you.

  143. What the idiots and haters fail to realize that if the evidence stands then not a US citizen having children is safe in their home anymore. Evidence of a crime would mean the the search was justified. Evidence of no crime would mean officers saying “Oops, our bad”.

    28. Alinusara10 on July 9th, 2009 at 8:10 pm

    Does anyone on this board (other than the ones from Utah or the Creek) use the phrase “my bad” or “our bad”?

    I had never heard that until I visited Utah. Sure makes me think Ali is either from Utah (where polygamists are protected) or from the Creek. Or maybe even better yet from the Centennial Park group across the highway! The Centennial Parkers rant on constantly about the decriminalization of polygamy, civil disobedience and religious freedoms and rights. That could be her MO under the guise of constitutional rights.

  144. I dunno where Alin is from, and don’t really care. Does it really matter? As far as Im concerned Flds, Polygamists persecute themselves by arrogantly breaking the law, then Boo Hooing its discrimination, taking constitutional rights away from them , when they are breaking the constitutional rights of women and children.

  145. Man, I want to see George Washington’s face when someone tells him his men suffered and died at Trenton so that Tony Alamo could rape a little girl clutching her stuffed animal. Or so Warren Jeffs could molest his nephew Brent.

    For the record, rape in all forms was a capital felony in 17th century America. And while we have limited statistical data about the incidence of rape then, there is strong evidence to suggest that many more rapes occur today (when rates are adjusted for population) than occurred in the colonial period.

  146. “My bad” is not uncommon usage, although it was used more often 10 or 15 years ago. I came across it when I lived in an inner city in Conecticut. Lots of the street kids used it. I’ve used it a few times myself.

    I notice that Alin offers essentially the same arguments that “First Amendment” liked to offer with the same disregard for the emotional, mental and physical safety and well being of children. The whole “Doesn’t Theresa Steed “own” her baby?” (in a word, “No, she doesn’t.”) shows a basic mindset where children are property and not people. It is sad to see people like that who want to claim a Constitutional “right” to objectify human beings. Children are people too. They are vulnerable people who deserve MORE and not less protection from society.

  147. Thanks for the input Rebeckah on “my bad”. That was a new phrase to me; I have never heard that outside of Utah. I guess it is somewhat common if it is (or was – 10-15 years ago) used in Connecticut – 3000 miles away from Utah.

  148. And you are SO right. Children do deserve protection! They are innocent, gullible little people and are to be treasured and not abused by a bunch of sick perverted pedophiles preaching the fear of eternal damnation unless they are submissive and obedient.

  149. I wish TRU TV would telecast the Alamo trial. Let the “uninformed” world know what a *&^%$#@ sicko he is. Then Boots can go on as a guest expert [hawk those shirts!] and make sure the truth gets out. Ya know the jurors won’t her the WHOLE story. Prior bad acts, et al. Would make for facinating TV!

  150. It would be good if some people ceased calling conning or forcing a girl into having sex and pregnancy “marriage” because it is not. That is not marriage between two persons in any of the 50 US states.

  151. Granny, our Founding Fathers could tell the difference. They weren’t all knotted up worrying about the moral implications of upholding the law. If a child was lured into sex or physically assaulted, the culprit was in immediate, tangible danger. The lucky ones were tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail.

    (Since that usually involved stripping the victim, bouncing around on a rough rail could inflict serious damage on his gonads. But it was still preferable to the alternative, a hangman’s noose.)

    I’m stressing this because Alin should realize that the major part of being a strict Constitutionalist is understanding the milieu in which the Founders were working. They weren’t vague about crime nor pusillanimous about punishment. And their trials did not include months of countervailing motions before a jury could actually be seated.

    I’m not a fan of summary justice, by the way. But then again I’m not a self-described strict Constitutionalist. Very few people are, when it comes down to it. Their interpretation varies, depending on whose ox is being gored.

    A strict Constitutionalist would acknowledge the authority of Utah’s Constitution, which bans polygamy forever, and the right of the Federal government to have set conditions upon Utah’s statehood.

    (BTW, Granny, I miss your trenchant posts. Finish up whatever it is you’re doing and get back here, OK?)

  152. Rebeckah wrote “The whole “Doesn’t Theresa Steed “own” her baby?” (in a word, “No, she doesn’t.”) shows a basic mindset where children are property and not people.”

    I have questions about that very idea (that adults “own” children). I heard some of the questioning of Sotomayor when she was discussing Roe v Wade. She was giving some back ground on the “privacy” rulings over the years, and included a ruling that basically said the state cannot make parents educate their children, because that issue is covered by the privacy of the family. I don’t agree because I think the rights of the child to get an education that would allow them to function economically outside of the family unit outweighs the privacy of the parents. Apparently, judges do not agree, and the argument against Roe v Wade hinges on the rights of the unborn vs. the right of privacy of the mother.

    So, I think our government is not at all clear on whether or not parents own their children and at what age the rights of the child outweigh the rights of the parent. Frequently, in Juvenile court, but the time a child is 12 or so, the judge will rule on custody with the wishes of the child, for instance.

  153. “A strict Constitutionalist would acknowledge the authority of Utah’s Constitution, which bans polygamy forever, and the right of the Federal government to have set conditions upon Utah’s statehood.”

    Yes! It escapes me why a strict Constitutionalist would conveniently ignore the rights granted to states to govern common law. I guess it boils down to a lack of understanding of history. Marriage, property, support of dependents and inheritance are central to common law, going back AT least to the Normans.

  154. I noticed this group mentioned in the news, pickiting outside the Alamo trial yesterday. So I shot them a letter of support. The leader wrote me back last night:

    Thank you so much for your kind words. As you may know, it is very hard to convince the common citizen that things like this happen. That is what we have been trying to do since June 06. I don’t know if your trial will contain beatings of children as young as 3, but for me that is the hardest. I wish your group could join us in the verdict and sentencing phase of Alamo. Please keep us informed as how it’s going there. I am sending you a link which has all the news articles. tonyalamonews.com. Again thank you. You may also contact me at xxx-xxx-xxxx

    Mary Coker
    Partnered Against Cult Activity

  155. It has occurred to me that a good part of the public’s unwillingness to believe that the FLDS is guilty is a simple denial that humans can be that bad. Why it is better to believe that the police want to steal babies, I have no idea, but people seem unwilling to believe that people who pray and can peaches could also be guilty of child abuse. So they call it a witch hunt, without looking at the evidence, because otherwise they would have to wonder about everyone around them and their own pastors and relatives.

  156. I think you’re right, Betty. It’s like the denial of death. When you lose a child, sometimes you lose some of your friends too, cause they just can’t deal with the idea that something so terrible could happen to them, or someone they love, too.

    Denial.

  157. Soozie,

    Yeah, we need to be pointing out the similarities, especially how polygamy always seems to lead to child brides [funny how that’s what the UN found, too!], same with HOY in Abilene.

    I don’t know what it is going to take to make people wake up…just keep plugging away I guess.

  158. GrannyToad,

    You are SO on the mark here, about them not being “marriages”. The fact of the matter is that none of them after the legal wife are “marriages”, even if they are adults.

    This is why I insist on calling them what they legally are, “concubines”, not “wives”. While it drives current polygamists NUTS, I have gotten so much support from past FLDS escapees on this. They understand, now that they are out, I’m right.

    Alamo was taking children to be his concubines, not wives.

  159. Oh, and I love how Greetings put it, about the balance of power in these owner/concubine relationships. It is just like slavery. Once you become one of a herd or harem, how exactly are you a “wife”? Carolyn talked about her asture life, with her little room and bathroom, and how she understood part of the dynamic of being a “plural wife” was that she didn’t own anything.

  160. Ahh, but think of the “emotional maturity” they are gaining from it, Boots. It’s all about “emotional maturity”, and children, and families — NEVER about power or sex. And they’re HAPPY! Just ask the folks at Principle Voices.

    For those who can’t read my disgusted expression, yes, that would be sarcasm.

  161. This is why I insist on calling them what they legally are, “concubines”, not “wives”.
    ====================================================
    I never can figure out why you don’t call them roommates, girlfriends, mistresses or any other numerous less inflammatory terms.

  162. con·cu·bine (kngky-bn, kn-)
    n.
    1. Law A woman who cohabits with a man without being legally married to him.
    2. In certain societies, such as imperial China, a woman contracted to a man as a secondary wife, often having few legal rights and low social status.

    concubine [kon-kew-bine]
    Noun
    1. Old-fashioned a woman living with a man as his wife, but not married to him
    2. a secondary wife in polygamous societies [Latin concumbere to lie together]
    concubinage n

    Because you’re right, for once, Ali, the truth IS always inflammatory—to those who don’t want to face it.

  163. 2. a secondary wife in polygamous societies [Latin concumbere to lie together]
    concubinage n
    ==============================================================
    k thanks. This alone makes it a valid term.

  164. Roommates that share the same man?

    Girlfriends that share the same man?

    Mistresses that share the same man?

    None of those terms apply, I would say “concubine” fits very well.

    If it is inflammatory to the women in the FLDS , then I will take that as a positive sign that they are at least thinking about their life choices.

    I mean, does any woman EVER WANT to be a “concubine”?

  165. And now lets take a look at the meaning of “secondary”, as it fits perfectly in how these women are treated:

    * being of second rank or importance or value; not direct or immediate;
    * inferior in rank or status
    * not of major importance
    * belonging to a lower class or rank
    * One that acts in an auxiliary, subordinate, or inferior capacity

    Yes, that alone does make it a valid term.

  166. Mississippigirl and LadySadie: THANK YOU!

    Love the secondary analysis, too.

    Secondary has got to suck. I mean can you even imagine being one of WJ’s estimated 80+ concubines? How horribly lonely. I hear women talking about how their husband is “emotionally unavailable” and I think to mayself, geesh, can you even imagine how “emotionally unavailable” a man would be if you were part of a group of concubines?

    WJ’s concubine #55, how “emotionally available” is he to her? Can’t you still get a divorce in some states based on the grounds of “alienation of affection”?

  167. Boots, I see you are on the cover of the Eldorado Times this week. Did the press conference you mentioned go through as planned? I am anxious to see the videos you mentioned would be posted soon.

    Thanks for your bravery and for all you do,

    Kelly

  168. How sad that these women are willing to settle for being 2nd best or #55 best, all to get to heaven and be exalted.

    No woman should ever settle for 2nd best. Each one of us are human being just like men, with all the thoughts and needs of men. It’s like saying black people are inferior because of their color. That is ridiculous and we all know it. It’s just as ridiculous to assume that women are inferior because they are women.

    Only men that are desperate for power & control make these kinds of statements and assumptions. That they have found women that will buy into the concept is appalling and extremely saddening.

    I have heard them state over and over that Polygamy doesn’t fail people, people fail polygamy. This statement is so out of touch with reality, it’s hard to even discuss. If they would understand that polygamy would not exist WITHOUT people then the statement should read ” Polygamy & People are not Compatible “

  169. Hi sugar,

    I am trying desperately to get the video statement, made outside the YFZ gates right after the encounter, posted, via YouTube.

    I had a friend of mine, who owns a TV station, make a copy before I even left the Hill Country. Then when they went to grab it to post, it was blank…sheesh.

    Fortunately the person who shot the video still has it and will try to get it up for me sometime tomorrow evening. I’ll be sure to mention it in this thread, so everyone knows when it is finally up.

    I have hesitated to say too much, since there are now lawyers involved. Posting that statement is the best way to put it out there.

    The press conference has been delayed, until we can announce exactly what legal measures have been taken, and who is participating in them.

    I can tell you that I did contact the executive director of the Texas Funeral Service Commission, as I was supposed to…and all I will say for now is, HE AIN’T A HAPPY CAMPER;)

    I’ll let you know when we set the press conference.

    Thank you for your kind words.

  170. Ok, on Fox news one of Tony Alamo’s child brides said he started having sex with her when she was 9. Told her the reason he picked her was because she was “cute”

    Remember it was also said that Warren was taking all the pretty girls he could for brides !

    The girl said also she was too young to answer the phone but not too young to have sex……

    So they were both taking the “pretty girls” and both believe that they are too young to have any responsibilities except in regards to sex and babies.

    Um, FBI? Are you out there? Hello?

    Anyone on the board with a different point of view want to discuss all the ways they AREN’T similar?

  171. TEXARKANA, Ark. (AP) – A woman who says she was “married” to
    evangelist Tony Alamo at age 8 is telling jurors that her parents
    worked against her when she tried to obtain help from social
    workers after leaving the minister’s Arkansas compound.
    The woman, now 18, said Friday that she drifted around the
    country after leaving the sect at age 15. Under cross-examination
    at Alamo’s sex-crimes trial, she said she tried to enter foster
    care in New Mexico but that her parents prevented it.
    She said her parents are prominent figures in Alamo’s ministry
    and they told New Mexico officials that she was a liar.

  172. TEXARKANA, Ark. — A woman who said evangelist Tony Alamo “married” her at age 8 told federal jurors Thursday he sexually assaulted her repeatedly until she escaped his compound in late 2006.

    The woman, who is now 18, said Alamo groped her at age 8. She said Alamo began having sex with her frequently even though she weighed only 98 pounds and was still in the third grade.

    At age 9, she said, Alamo took photographs of her with an instant camera and, on looking at the pictures, called her a “German whore.” She said she didn’t understand the term but that Alamo told her it was a good thing.

    Alamo is named in a 10-count indictment alleging he took young girls across state lines for sex.

  173. Sick SOB!!

  174. I hope this guy rots in HELL if there is one!!

  175. Well, on a lighter note than Hell anyway, I have been assured that the dirty dozen will not be separated from the general population, like they do in Utah with Jeffs now, if we can get them into Huntsville;)

  176. I meant Arizona, but he was separated from the general population in Utah when he was there, too.

  177. Yeah, I hope he learns the “real” meaning of “whore” in prison.

    Hopefully, he will be picked to play that role to the day he meets his maker.

  178. Two things!
    Tony Alamo sent out a press release saying that puberty is the marriage age – seems he really wants to go back to jail:
    http://www.arktimes.com/blogs/arkansasblog/2009/07/tonys_world.aspx

    Also Judge has ruled in the trust case to shut out Willie and others, require the payment withheld to be made and begin process for sale of Berry Knolls farm;
    http://www.sltrib.com/Polygamy/ci_12859426

    Yeah!!!!!

  179. “She said her parents are prominent figures in Alamo’s ministry
    and they told New Mexico officials that she was a liar.”

    Gee, we’ve never heard that before. I’m surprised they didn’t point out that ALL apostates are liars.

  180. true rebeckah

  181. You live in the Texas Hill Country, Boots?

  182. A Utah judge has denied efforts by FLDS members to intervene in disputes over a property trust once controlled by the polygamous sect and set a hearing to consider sale of a historic farm.

    Third District Judge Denise Lindberg set a hearing for July 29 at 9 a.m. in Salt Lake City to consider the sale of the Berry Knoll Farm, which sect members oppose.

    Lindberg also gave the Utah Attorney General’s Office two days to deposit $192,600 in occupancy fee payments it received from the sect but was asked to hold.

    She denied motions filed by Willie Jessop, Dan Johnson, Merlin Jessop, Lyle Jeffs and James Oler — all members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints — to intervene in the case, saying no potential beneficiaries of the United Effort Plan Trust have standing.

    The trust holds virtually all property in the twin towns of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz., and was taken over by the court in 2005 amid allegations of mismanagement and failure of former trustees to defend its assets against lawsuits.

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12859426

  183. Way to GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Judge Lindberg!!

  184. I love this quote from today’s AP story on Tony Alamo’s trial:
    “Defense lawyers say the government has targeted the ministry for prosecution, and Alamo has said the Vatican is behind the accusations.”

    Yeah. I’m sure the Vatican thinks Alamo is SOOOOO important that they have to shut him down before he converts the 1.3 BILLION Catholics worldwide.

  185. Excellent ruling by Judge Lindberg. Bet Mark Shurtleff’s hand is still stinging from the slap she delivered to him.

  186. Well, on a lighter note than Hell anyway, I have been assured that the dirty dozen will not be separated from the general population, like they do in Utah with Jeffs now, if we can get them into Huntsville;)

    No, put them in the general population. Besides, they like having multiple sexual partners.

  187. What’s even more bizarre is Alamo sending out an email (his lawyers got to love this) using the Webster’s dictionary on puberty to prove that the legal age of marriage is menses!
    Hey duane, you going to add another “legal” source justifying sex with tweeners, too?

  188. Forgive me, anonymous, but I can’t wish that for them. I’d much rather see them change the way they think (the real meaning of the word “repent”), admit their wrongdoing, and find a relationship with the living God. Spend their time in prison, oh yeah; and make restitution — there’s plenty of money.

  189. well the trib has convienently lost the comments section, lol

  190. Hey DD here is the link to the comment section on the trib for the Judge Lindberg story:

    http://www.tribtowns.com/comments/read_comments.asp?ref=12859426&sec=News

  191. Thread for Lindberg Ruling:

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2009/07/17/ouch-shurtleff-and-flds-take-a-beating/

  192. thanks Flds Texas 🙂

  193. HHGB,

    Have you noticed the arrogance displayed by molestors lately?

    You’re right, I bet his lawyers are having a stiff Scotch over that one.

  194. Texasrattle,

    I lived there for almost 5 years, in Centerpoint, right outside of Kerrville. It was an amazing experience. I lived in a 132 year old original Texas homestead, almost froze to death for two or three months a year and had to haul water from the tank to flush the toilet frequently…wouldn’t trade the experience for anything in the whole world. I met some of the best people in my life there.

    I have said for years, “If G-d ever came down and told me I could never go back home to Texas, I’d head straight for Tennessee.”

  195. I would also love to see them “repent” in an honest way, but I do not think that will happen, because it is generations of indoctrination that they would have to move past and I don’t think they are willing.

    Sometimes a taste of your own medicine is the quickest way to show someone they need to repent.

  196. Guess who was in Arkansas, hanging around the Tony Alamo trial today?

    “There seemed to be 2 FLDS couples in the court room today. We had never seen them before. Also several lawyers from out of state were just watching”.

  197. Well Heaven forbid we try to stop the First Amendment right of Tony Alamo to rape 8 year old girls and their parents to sell them to whoever they want for Eternal Reward Bonus Points.

  198. If I was Flds I would put the LARGEST distance between themselves and Tony Alamo!!

  199. Gee, you’d think, wouldn’tcha?

  200. On Friday, a 17-year-old girl told jurors Alamo invited her and her sister to his home at the Arkansas compound when she was as young as 8. By 9, she said she visited regularly. By 11, she said Alamo “married” her in his bedroom and immediately began sexually assaulting her.

    “He said things like I looked very innocent to him,” the girl said, her face and voice betraying no emotion. “And he said I had the body of a 6-year-old and he was attracted to” that.

    The 17-year-old girl said she traveled with Alamo and a group of others to the ministry’s compound near Los Angeles. She described him taking her into his back bedroom on his tour bus, locking the door and having sex with her as the sounds of the road and others on the bus masked the noise.

  201. […] Discussion: Tony Alamo/FLDS Compared […]

  202. cool site! Keep up the awesome work!

  203. Boots, can you link to story with FLDS couple at Alamo trial?

  204. Yeah, I would love that link to,,, it would be very interesting to know Flds are sitting in the court room

  205. I hope Duane reads this, because it’s precisely what we’ve been saying about the brain-washing FLDS members undergo that makes them compliant victims. (This woman is not among the victims in the indictment because she was over 18 when she was taken across state lines for sex, although she was 15 when Alamo ‘married’ her.)
    “Under questioning by prosecutors, the Texas woman said she didn’t contact authorities for years because Alamo had taught his followers that the government justice system was evil.
    “‘This was the courtroom of Satan and we were in the courtroom of God’ with Alamo, she told jurors.
    “Under cross-examination, the Texas woman acknowledged returning to Alamo’s compound after he evicted her husband but said she did so because she was afraid God would punish her if she didn’t do as Alamo said.
    “‘I lived in fear of hellfire and I believed that God could strike me dead,’ said the woman, who was born into the church her parents joined as teenage runaways. She said she was not taken across state lines for sex until after reaching age 18.”
    (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j7JRsIm1DgSBIfIFSL3D_fjT1HmwD99FLG880)

  206. Speaking of arrogance, get this:

    “Alamo, 74, dozed off a few times Friday during the proceedings, sometimes with his head back against his chair and his mouth open. During the 17-year-old’s testimony, one of his attorneys nudged him to wake him up.”

  207. Greetings & DD,

    The information was not from a news story. It was from a source who is inside the court room every day. Like so much else FLDS activity, I guess the media didn’t think it was worth reporting.

  208. P.S.

    If either of you would like to contact the source, shoot me an email and I will give you their direct contact information.

  209. Another blog has followed your example FLDS TEXAS and opened a discussion to compare the FLDS and Tony Alamo

    http://www.tonyalamonews.com/1711/71709-discussion-tony-alamoflds-compared.php

  210. Funny, when you click on the link to see the comments posted on the tonyalamonews site it brings you HERE!

  211. LadySadie,

    That would be our new friends at PACA;) Partners Against Cult Activity.

    I wrote them the other day to give them the AAAP’s official support, and suggested they visit FLDSTEXAS:)

    They are in the court room every day.

  212. Reading the tonyalamo site – Boots is this the same one you posted before?

    http://www.tonyalamonews.com (leading to old Alamo message boards – the new boards I cant access well)

    To wit:

    (OLD BOPARD ON SURVIVORS)

    http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/18619/33489.html?1200512572

    I was a member for 14 yrs at the Alamo Church. My then husband was kicked out for something very trivial. We were at an out post in a ruff section in Chicago.

    It was the coldest recorded winter in 100 yrs. A message was delivered by one of the Alamo Foundation members (we were never able to talk to the pastor).

    We were told that Tony Alamo said, “she can stay but he has to go” There was no regard for the sanctity of marriage. I choose to leave with my husband. We were not offered a dollar for a cup of coffee or a way out of the city.

    We were flat broke and had it not been for my family, who knows what we would have done. It didn’t matter that we had spent14yrs in the church and had given 100% of all the money we made towards the Alamo Foundation. The whole experience was very traumatic and still effects my feelings toward organized religions.

    Do I believe in God? Yes! I’m doing well, I own a hotel and 4 beautiful horses.

    Sincerely, Dxxxxx

  213. LOL here is a good one! PS where was LE for the dozen or so years this guy was reaking havoc on people? DUH!!!!!!!!!!

    ===========

    “Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 – 12:55 pm:

    Toni (Tony Alamo) is the “The World’s Lying Pervert”

    Toni – you tell so many lies on your radio program! Here are just a few lies you keep repeating!

    ** you said you only have 1 wife – LIAR

    – you have many wives – just to name a few:
    Sharon, Lydia, Lizzy, Jeannie, Mishael, Angel

    While on the witness stand in the Memphis Tax Evasion court case Tony Alamo was asked whether he had multiple wives –

    Tony Alamo invoked the Fifth Amendment 10 times!

    You knew they would ask for DNA and prove to the entire world that Lydia was your concubine (wife)and Tabor is your son!

    You said you didn’t have a daycare center, the moms watched their own children – LIAR

    You deny commanding children to be beaten – LIAR
    too many witnesses have told about the child abuse suffered because of your command!

    You claim to be a Prophet of God – LIAR

    God’s anointed DON’T LIE, RAPE UNDER-AGE GIRLS,OR BEAT OR COMMAND CHILDREN TO BE BEATEN BLOODY!

    you have earned the title of “WORLD LIAR”!”

  214. It is politics to a degree. Public out cry works wonders. When every elected official in Arkansas was notified of this abuse, something had to be done. Now as I understand it, a FBI agent was doing an investigation already. But the Arkansas State police knew since 01 and especially 03. Why did they wait? We’ll never know. Maybe because of the “church” connection. Freedom of religion and all that is a sticky subject for people. As for the charges being Federal, it’s what they can prove. Al Capone killed people and they convicted him of tax evasion. I guess you take what you can.

    As a civilized society, there is no penalty on earth they can impose that fits Alamo’s crimes. We believe the parents are also to be punished. – PACA

  215. I agree with that PACA!!

  216. Sadly most violent crime does not lead to arrest and conviction. Only about half of aggravated assaults and a third of rapes are even reported to police. Of the ones that are reported, only a small number result in arrest.

    So it makes sense, in a horrific way, for the Tony Alamos of this world to assume they’ll get away with it. The numbers are actually on their side.

  217. “Alamo was born Bernie Lazar Hoffman in Missouri in 1934, a Jew. In the 1980s, his cult, Tony Alamo Ministries, made elaborate embroidered denim jackets that became popular with celebrities like Brooke Shields. But his “church” lost its tax-exempt status in 1985 after the IRS concluded it was a profit-making venture to support his lavish lifestyle. He went to prison after a 1994 conviction on tax evasion charges.”

    The whole article is here: http://www.mainjustice.com/2009/07/20/at-evangelists-trial-horrific-tales-of-sexual-abuse-of-young-girls/

  218. Prosecutors say that by the 1990s, he had begun a path that would lead him to prey on younger and younger girls

    Jenner praised the “courage” of the witnesses, some of whom escaped from the compound with only the clothes they were wearing after escaping the grated windows and security cameras of Alamo’s home.

    “What did Tony Alamo need to keep so secret?” the prosecutor said. “The evidence in this case makes the answer of that perfectly clear: Tony Alamo wanted to keep his criminal sexual activities with minors a secret from the outside world.”

    Sound familiar? Article link is below.

    http://www.tonyalamonews.com/1997/72209-jurors-hear-closing-arguments-in-alamos-trial.php

  219. Praise God! Bernie Lazar Hoffman will spend the rest of his natural life in jail, having finally terminated his dubious career as an Elvis impersonator and bogus religieux.

    May God have mercy on his soul. May the state keep a tight rein on his communications outside of jail. May the Dirty Dozen look east and weep.

    Justice is served.

  220. Hey! Do you think the Salt Lake Tribune will do a story on the Alamo trial now, or will they continue to pretend it has nothing to do with them?

  221. Ditto Greetings. I wonder why the Alamo trial/verdict hasn’t been covered much by the major media either. At the very least, I would expect Nancy Grace to be all over this, since her main focus is child victimization. I sent her an email today suggesting she follow the case and look at the similarities between Alamo and the FLDS.

  222. Maybe “The Foundation” will die.

    http://www.villagevoice.com/2008-05-13/news/barely-legal-tony-alamo/

    Long before a fundamentalist Mormon compound in El Dorado, Texas, was raided in April, a more familiar figure was spewing polygamist propaganda over the airwaves in New York.

    Longtime evangelist Tony Alamo—on the air daily at WVNJ-AM 1160 in New York and New Jersey—has told audiences for years that polygamous unions between older men and little girls are God’s will. These days, he can be heard regularly defending the breakaway Mormon sect in Texas: “These people are true polygamists. They take care of their wives and children, and their children and their wives are happy. But you people, you go out and have sex with every woman you can get your hands on, and you impregnate them and then you send them to the murder compounds [abortion clinics].” During an April broadcast, the pastor proclaimed that the government had no right to take 10-year-old wives away from their rightful “husbands”: “What I’m doing is fighting for these people that they, the ungodly beast, is throwing into prison for marrying someone 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11—10, if they’ve reached puberty.”

  223. This guy makes me want to vomit.

  224. A dear friend told me that “Evil loves recognition.” So perhaps having Alamo go to jail in obscurity is the best outcome. I’m sure the Dirty Dozen and their lawyers know.

  225. Partnered Against Cult Activity said:

    Maybe because of the “church” connection.

    I think this is the reason that a number of crimes committed by religious folks go unpunished. These folks should have gotten more than a wrist slap for letting their daughter die of pneumonia because they believed in “faith healing.”

    “Religious tolerance” is the reason that so much insanity is able to continue in civilized society.

  226. Well, the main stream media is finally asking the right questions in the Tony Alamo case.

    If you scroll down in the article they mention our boy Merrill. Now the question is when are the authorities going to start dealing with these idiot parents that allow these things to happen to their children?

  227. As I understand it, there will be no charges on the State level against Alamo or any of his followers. I wonder why that is.

  228. As I understand it, there will be no charges on the State level against Alamo or any of his followers. I wonder why that is.
    =============================================================
    Maybe because it’s easier to prove that he transported girls accross state lines to have sex then to prove that they actually did have sex.

  229. Maybe because it’s easier to prove that he transported girls accross state lines to have sex then to prove that they actually did have sex.

    Well, that certainly could be the case or there could be any number of reasons. It still looks bad for the Arkansas authorities that this was going on in their state and they sat around and did nothing.

  230. June 25, 2009 Associated Press

    TEXARKANA, Ark. — A raid forced in haste, a prosecution relying on decade-old memories, and a jury dealing with a century-old morality law could have given evangelist Tony Alamo a chance to walk away from sex crime charges a free man.

    The five women he took as underage “wives” when they were as young as 8 didn’t let that happen.

    Jurors cried with the women through their testimony, listening as they related how Alamo told them God commanded them to be his sexual partners and even molested one girl while he was in federal prison. They did not falter under cross-examination, staring down the man who took their childhood and exploited their faith.

    “I just don’t want him to hurt anybody else,” the woman Alamo took as a “bride” at age 8 said on the stand, weeping. “I don’t want him to touch my little sister. She’s only 12.”
    *******************************
    Alinusara, you should be ashamed of yourself!!!

  231. Ron, families like the Worthingtons and religions like the Church of Christ (I believe that’s what they called themselves) are another of my pet peeves. I’ve come to the conclusion that parents who are willing to endanger their children for religious beliefs should not be allowed to raise their children. Perhaps what we need are some sort of social worker who can follow these children and make sure they’re getting to doctors as needed, make sure they aren’t being married off at 15, make sure they know their options and their rights. I wonder if there is any legal way to arrange that?

  232. well the FBI is still looking for Alamo’s enforcer Kolbeck. I hope they find him soon!

  233. Eric Holder is the top guy at Justice
    ************
    Well Eric Holder needs to get his thump out of his butt, and start investigating the Mann Act and Rico Act for FLDS.

  234. Ron and Rebeckah, I am a faith healer when called upon to do so. It is not that unusual among Christians, because any person of faith has the capacity to call upon the Holy Spirit on another’s behalf. And I count several other healers among my friends. (None of us are in paid ministry.)

    But nobody I know would ever discourage someone from getting appropriate medical care. It would be irrational to suppose that God wants us to step off a cliff and beg for help. Jesus explicitly said that to do so was wrong, when he was tempted by the devil. (Luke 4:12)

    Of course, there are religious nutters who do that, but there are also non-religious nutters who do the same thing. When I had cancer, a few people encouraged me to do purification, supplements, chelation, have my fillings removed, etc., instead of radiation and chemotherapy. I’d be a toothless corpse today had I followed their advice.

  235. Greetings, when I was a born again Christian I regularly had prayer for my children and my various ailments. However, we also went to the doctors. I can only think of one time when I didn’t do as the doctor suggested (go get a chest x-ray for my son when we weren’t sure if he had pneumonia) but that was only after I called the doctor and got his opinion. (Basically, he stopped coughing overnight after prayer. The doctor said as long as he had no cough and no more fever, that there was no need for an x-ray.)

    So I’m not anti-prayer/faith healing. I’m simply anti-prayer/faith healing excluding proper medical care. Too many children have died, and died horrible deaths, because of those kinds of choices from parents. Parent rights end, in my opinion, where they harm their children.

  236. Greetings – I could not disagree more. Belief in faith healing is the pernicious slippery slope that leads to things like the death of the Worthington child.

    I suppose if I put on my horned helmet and breast plate and danced around and convinced some person that the power of Thor had healed them, then they might have some temporary placebo effects from that theatrics. However, they also might think that the no longer need conventional treatment because they are healed by the power of Thor.

    Seriously, if God heals folks then why doesn’t God heal amputees? Regrowing a limb should be child’s play for an all knowing and all powerful deity.

  237. God is no respector of persons. To me that means, he doesn’t choose one over the other. I have seen miracles in my life time, why? I believe God has a reason for everything that happens.
    We don’t always understand it. But, I consider every mornig that I open my eyes, God has made it possible for me to live another day. To me that’s a miracle. When I saw My children being born, and realized the teeny human breathing being coming out of my body was real and came from a mere seed, that was a miracle to me.
    I deeply believe in prayer. I believe prayer can move mountains, but in the end, it is always God’s will that the mountain be moved.

  238. The following is a list of characteristics associated with “cultic” groups condensed from a list provided by ICSA. The list was created from a book published in 1989 by Dr. Robert J. Lifton, “Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism”.

    1. Milieu Control: Isolation of individuals from society by controlling information and communication.

    2. Mystical manipulation: Manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but are actually planned and orchestrated to demonstrate divine authority by the leader.

    3. Demand for purity: The world is portrayed as black and white and members are made to conform to the group’s ideology. Guilt and shame are powerful control devices.

    4. Confession: Sins as defined by the group are confessed to personal monitors or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality within the group and leaders exploit and discuss what is confessed.

    5. Sacred science: The group’s doctrine is considered to be the ultimate truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as God’s spokesperson, is above criticism.

    6. Loading the language: The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so the outside world does not understand. The jargon consists of thought-terminating cliches that serve to alter members’ thought processes to group thinking.

    7. Doctrine over person: Personal experiences are denied or reinterpreted if they are contrary to the group’s ideology.

    8. Dispensing of existence: Those in the outside world are not saved. They are unenlightened and must be converted. If they don’t join or are critical they are rejected. The outside world loses credibility.

    Sound familiar?

    This is from an article about Tony Alamo
    http://www.tonyalamonews.com/2177/72509-help-available-to-former-followers-those-wishing-to-leave-ministry.php

  239. Anon 9:31

    I don’t know. I found it very interesting that previously it was mentioned that FBI agents took some of the victims to a twweek cult deprograming course of some sort. Why was that not done for any of the older YFZ girls? Does the federal government or someone in it have a problem identifying the FLDS as a cult for some reason?

    Orrin Hatch, Mark Shurtleff and Mike O. Leavitt certainly have never accused the FLDS of being a cult. Instead, particularly in Hatch and Shurtleff’s case, they have publicly defended the right of the cult to perpetrate a recognised human rights abuse on more than half their human population.

  240. FBI are the only LE who listened to these girls and paid attention to their tears. We had been pounding on all levels of LE doors for decades with not so much as confirmation of an investigation by ANYone, including the AR State Police. Suddenly “the raid” on AlameO’s 74th birthday, Sept 20, 2008.

    Beginning with the little town of Fouke, AR pop 814, the heart of the Boggy Creek Monster’s ‘ministry’ and home of his current cult property. Fouke PD? Miller County Sheriff? Arkansas State Police? AR Attorney General’s Office? NO response, no advice other than to buy an attorney. How can children buy an attorney?

    FINALLY, Fouke Mayor Terry Purvis forwards child rape complaints to FBI. Ears perk up. They’ve heard Tony Alamo’s name for years and they are now determined to find out why so many children are leaving claiming sexual assault and bloody beatings. It was the testimony of the CHILD VICTIMS who grew up that convicted Alamo. Not lies, not conspiracy theories, not Satanic Vatican Demons…etc

    The heroes will always be the victims and their testimonies.
    Please research the facts. They are not hard to find.

    We watched with bated breath when Warren Jeffs went to trial. Ex Alamo Cult members had drawn the very same parallels as you folks do. And a collective spontaneous sigh of relief went up with his conviction. This gave us hope that charges against Alamo might also be successful.

    We all agree that the parents of these sacrificial lambs of God, the little girls and bloodied boys, should be jailed for their complicity in these crimes.

    Thank you for following our story. Thank you for your prayers.

  241. This website is maintained by survivors of the Alamo Cult which began in the mid 1960’s in Hollywood CA. It is the definitive work and has complete history and truthful testimony as it’s content.

    tonyalamonews.com

  242. Thanks, Dyann. I have been reading about child brides worldwide and it seems that they are all too often unheard.

  243. Thanks for the post and info, Dyann! This thread is slow now that Tony has been convicted, and there are upwards of 20 suits and trails pending with the FLDS / Winston Blackmore.

    Many of us hounded the SLTRIB to report on Alamo, as they have a polygamy section – but not a word.

    Feel free to copy /paste these posts onto “Discussion 12” (found at the top, after you go to our home page by hitting “flds texas” link at the top)

    That is where most of the activity is.

    Thanks again, and please feel free to post anytime with updates or parallel issues.

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