~ by FLDS TEXAS on July 8, 2009.

71 Responses to “Arrogance”

  1. So Lyle’s the Presiding Bishop and designated FLDS decision-maker. What does that make Merril?

  2. That’s real class. I want to grow up and be an attorney mommy so I can go to work for a classy law firm like Jones Waldo. Who does that grieving family think they are anyway wanting to bury their child with loved ones that have gone before them. You just couldn’t make this stuff up. That law firm should pull their head out of their butt long enough to recognize the difference between right and wrong. I suppose that equates to who has money and who doesn’t. This is the same law firm who wanted to interject themselves into the trust dispute and tell the FLDS how to run the trust. They couldn’t get into the action (money) that way and so they chased down the next ambulance and caught this one.

  3. I suppose that if Mr. Lyle Jeffs (after prayerful consideration of the ‘just needs and wants’ of the putative beneficiaries) decides that he can’t allow burying an infant boy in his cemetery, the family can just dispose of the corpse like carrion?

    Puh-lease. A grieving family ought to be allowed a dignified burial for their child—in the community in which they live, among their ancestors.

  4. And they want to seek a “remedy” to the action? What do they want to do dig up the baby’s coffin and throw it in the trash heap?

  5. It’s interesting that the lawyer from Low, Down, Swindle & Associates repeated the canard that the beneficiaries of the trust are the people still within the FLDS, whereas the trust explicitly states otherwise. I guess it’s OK to lie if you slip the word “putative” in there.

  6. Lyle Jeffs is presiding bishop of Short Creek is what im reading. However, the Stubbs family DID contact who they were supposed to for TWO days after Caden died, and NEVER got a reply. While this little baby waited on SOMEONE< ANYONE from Short Creek to let them know if their child could be buried in a cemetary with other family members of the Stubbs family buried there.

  7. The two thoughts which sprang to my mind in reading this were:

    Is there any land owned by the UEP which isn’t “holy” to the FLDS?


    They’re upset that Wisan didn’t contact Lyle Jeffs but no one has ever stated that the “answer them nothing” order isn’t in effect. It seems to me the FLDS are just miffed that Wisan didn’t give them another chance to prove their righteous holiness by ignoring him again.

  8. Maybe they would have let the parents put him in a trash bag and be buried in the back yard of their private, yet state funded, medical clinic; like they offered so nicely to do for my friend Pam Black’s baby?

    I understand that’s not concecrated ground.

  9. this is just beyond comment. i never thought they could get any worse and now they are.

  10. Hmmm. I thought I left a comment last night.

  11. Rebeckah, The stubbs did what FLDS required, they contacted someone in leadership to get permission. The problem was, two days later NO leadership had contacted them back. They needed to bury their baby, and so they went to the person in control of the trust, Bruce Wisan. Which to me was the right thing to do, since the family started with the correct steps, and were ignored.

  12. I realize that, Deputydog. I think they realize it too, which is why the complaint is against Wisan, not the Stubbs. That’s why I think they’re just whining because Wisan didn’t give them the option to ignore him too. They don’t really care that Caden is buried in the cemetary, they’re just upset that they didn’t get to mess with Wisan too. (Just my take on it.)

  13. Speaking of arrogance:

  14. So,,,, The Safety Net is in reality, a way to enable polygamy to continue.

  15. I thought the safety net was a way to help those who wish to leave do so. I guess you cannot force help on those who don’t want it.

  16. The Safety Net originally worked to help those who were already out of polygamy or who wanted to get out of polygamy. This new version of the Safety Net helps both those in and those out. That is probably why they have helped 1500 people in 9 months – it is helping so many who are still in and will probably stay in polygamy.

  17. deputydog1 you are correct the Safety Net is an enabler for polygamy.

    The FLDS will figure out a way use this new systme and drain good money after bad.

    Just flood the net with concubines who are not good enough to live in Zion. Another welfare scam.

    The perfect men and women in Zion will be guilt free about laaving those behind.

    The cycle continues.

    Also, Cennential Park another nasty den of pedifiles.

  18. Anonymous 8:07 I have to disagree, both Utah and Arizona have constitutional laws prohibiting polygamy. Therefore, having an enanbling group called “safety net” show polygamists how to work the system for welfare, etc. is flat out wrong.

  19. Isnt Lyle Jeffs Warrens Lacky Brother who got caught fooling around with a male FLDS prostitute?

    Or do I have my Jeffs confuses?

    BTW I hope Jeff Sheilds and Bruce Wiaan bill the UEP 10,000 apeice to tell Lyle “You’re fugly and your mother dresses you funny.”

  20. That was Seth Jeffs(another of Warren’s brothers) caught fooling around with a male relative in an erratically-driven vehicle that cops pulled over some time before Warren’s arrest. Seth apparently is bisexual like Warren, because Seth lives at YFZ and has several concubines and a bunch of kids there, doesn’t he? He’s been in photos there. But I guess Seth is perfect!- so he’s at “Zion.” Right?

    and yes, I see this “Safety Net” as helping to propel polygamy, and if the money for it is coming from taxes, a LOT of people should be screaming NO to it. This is SO AWFUL- that a large,scenic US state continues such fraud and manipulation with this problem. I do not need to be reminded to never visit Utah again.

  21. There is no money available to the Safety Net to actually help anyone to get out of polygamy – like get relocated somewhere else. People now getting help through the Safety New can get actual counseling and case management because the 2 women – employed using the money allocated by the Utah State Legislature – are counselors. If other help besides counseling and/or case management is needed, the people are referred elsewhere for these things.

    The Safety Net was originally set up to help polygamists get equal access to justice and to social services. It was thought that polygamists were too afraid to seek help out of fear of being arrested for practicing polygamy.

    At first there was $70,000 in federal money to help with housing and relocation costs for those who wanted to leave. There was also money for legal expenses like divorce and child custody issues. That was a Department of Justice federal grant for $700,000 with 10% of it ($70,000) going to actually help victims. In order to get help, you had to prove that you were a victim of domestic violence in a polygamous relationship. There was no money if you were a victim of child abuse in a polygamous relationship – it had to be domestic violence.

    Now there is only money for the salaries of the Safety Net coordinator and the case manager, with the other money from the Legislature being allocated for training social service providers and others working with polygamists so that they will be culturally sensitive to this unique population. The Utah State Legislature has promised $300,000 per year for a couple of years to fund this.

    There is no money for any other help for victims of polygamy. Utah is spending $300,000 per year for counseling, case management and training of service providers. How it went from money to help victims get out of polygamy to money to help practicing polygamists get welfare benefits … I don’t know. Only in Utah!

  22. Well Mark Shurtleff has a new talking point in his quest for holy Senator-hood.

    “I was a Polygamist Enabler”..

  23. Well yeah, a senator MUST look out for all of his or her constituents. And since 37,000 Utah constituents are polygamists, then what would you expect from Shurtleff. This is his heritage. And Mitt Romney’s too. Remember Mitt’s father George Romney was born in Colonia Juarez, Mexico – one of the numerous Mormon polygamous colonies started by members of the LDS church so they could continue to practice plural marriage. And its Orrin Hatch’s heritage, too. Need I continue?

  24. SUPRISE! SUPRISE!!! as gomer pyle would say! The xflds didn’t stand quietly by this time and are standing up for their rights!

  25. Bwahahahha! I love these comments. As soon as I readthe safety net flyer…lecture on “making it safe to receive social services” aka “welfare”, sensitivity training, culural education…what took you so long to worked up into a frenzy.
    Well, no welfare fraud if the AG is giving advice on how to receive help from social services…another lie by the anti-polygamy crowd.

    Even though “sensitivity training” sounds like bureaucratic cornball, a bunch of firefighters were held up in helping out NO after katrina because they had to undergo “sensitivity training” dealing with sexual harrassement. I love it when it comes to polygamists. But seriously, the whole idea is for polygamist families to get help without fear for their families, you would want them to be in a state of political terror so eloquently described with great candor by the racist William Pierce in “The turner diaries”. As Pierce explained, it is the terror experienced because you never know if/when you will be next, people around you are semmingly arrested at random for “crimes” that most everyone around you may be guilty of. Very chilling and creepy, I read that book to get a better understanding of how racists think, and I see a lot of ideas expressed here that are very similiar to what was expounded in that book.
    Oh, another good book is “Black Like me” by Jgriffin, a white dude disguises himself as black in the deep south during jim crow, a graphic depiction of what it is like being on the receiving end of hate as told first hand by a white person.

  26. 37,000 polygamists in the organized groups, estimates of another 50,000 or so who are independent or LDS doing it on the sly, that can add up in a close election.

  27. “LDS doing it on the sly”


  28. Sensitivity Training my ass duane!!! Why should people be sensitized to people committing ILLEGAL acts????

  29. The act of polygamy is de facto legal in Utah as long as other crimes are not involved. The legality of polygamy in the US is up in the air because of Lawrence vs. Texas. As long as they don’t commit bigamy for deceptive and fraudelent motives, I simply don’t see it as a crime and apparently many others share my opinion, hence the sensitivity training. IMHO, many on this blog are in dire need of polygamist sensitivity training given you harsh and narrow view of polygamy. You guys need to learn to tolerate and be more understanding of other cultures that you may find alien. Attacking and using brute force against those whom you don’t understand just leads to more bitterness, heartbreak, and animosity.
    Can’t us polygs and monigs just learn to get along?
    The Safety net should develop a cultural studies course that caters to rabid anti-polygamist haters.

  30. Anyone that thinks that Lawrence did anything to promote the legality of polygamy is smoking some funny cigarettes….

  31. TxBluesman, some people don’t see smoking funny cigarettes as a crime either—our prisons are full of people who’ve made the mistake of thinking their personal beliefs about drugs trumped the law.

    I agree totally that this case is completely unlike Lawrence v. Texas, and I have reasonable confidence that Canada is going to uphold the validity of their anti-polygamy laws as well. The Canadian government has already amassed a wealth of information documenting the abuses that are inherent in polygamy. And Canada may be committed to multiculturalism, but it’s also committed to gender equality.

    (It was instructive to me to go back and read news stories from Warren Jeffs’ trial. Most writers thought he’d be acquitted.)

    I think Duane keeps harping on the discrimination think because it’s the last pin in his shaky edifice. (It gets a bit complicated when he’s building a case for an avowedly racist group using a seminal civil rights book.)

    I don’t ‘hate’ polygamists, but I sure as heck hate their behavior. And it’s a group behavior, so I hold the group responsibility. It is criminal, racist, and explicitly denies fundamental human rights. There is no place for that in the Canadian Charter and no place for it here, either.

  32. Child molestation is defacto legal in Utah too duane, as long as they keep with the “Dont ask, Dont tell” policies the local police and judiciary adhere to.

  33. BTW, there are roughly 100,000 polygamists spread out over the western states. That’s hardly a voting bloc. There are about 150,000 Bahá’í in the US, and nobody worries about their influence at the polls.

    The Satmars you mentioned earlier in connection with Kiryas Joel are a mere blip on the consciousness, but there are about 100,000 of them in New York. They aren’t a voting bloc here.

  34. Duane, you may. That’s you.

    I do not “need” to learn to be “more tolerant” of men who diddle and/or impregnate little children, or rapes grown men or women, not either sex who robs or murders or any other criminal behavior in our local, state, or national or global — including polygamy.

    I do willingly support our nation of laws, I support criminal prosecution of crimes, and imprisonment for those convicted of crimes. In that way you and I, Duane, are worlds apart.

  35. First of all, I have a hard time taking anything Duane says seriously. He and his good buddy First Ammendment have distorted the actual words spoken by too many people, not to mention ascribing motives to people with no evidence other than wishful thinking, which makes any “report” by him highly suspect. Frankly, when someone feels the need to log on to other blogs to complain about what someone has said on a blog that I don’t even read, I fail to see any relevance. It would be nice to stick to the issues of the forum — like the arrogance of a group that refuses to answer anything the court appointed fiduciary asks them then turning around and complaining when that same fiduciary makes a decision without consulting them. Now that we don’t have to worry about the accuracy or identity of the complainers, as they thoughtfully identified themselves and put it in writing. They do enjoy making themselves look like thoughtless bullies, don’t they. 😉

  36. “IMHO, many on this blog are in dire need of polygamist sensitivity training given you harsh and narrow view of polygamy.”

    Duane is lecturing us on sensitivity? Did the world shift on it’s axle while I was in Gastonia?

  37. “Anyone that thinks that Lawrence did anything to promote the legality of polygamy is smoking some funny cigarettes….”

    Must be some good stuff. Maybe that is de facto legal in Austin.

  38. “The Canadian government has already amassed a wealth of information documenting the abuses that are inherent in polygamy”

    There are laws already on the books for all those other abuses like rape, molestation, domestic violence, et al.

    It would be just as easy to document the abuses inherent in monogamy, abuses inherent in single mother households, abuses inherent in minority ghettos, abuses inherent in appalachian trailer parks, ….

    Lawrence vs. Texas is significant as Shirtleff is afraid to go after polygamists sans abuse charges, so how can you discount that court decision if the top dog cop in Utah acknowledges said SCOTUS decision is the major factor in keeping him from launching a pogrom against polygs? Most of the commenters here represent the views of the radical extremist anti-polyg position.
    Do you really believe most of the general public is going to tolerate armed mass raids into short creek and rounding up thousands of kids, mass arrests of hundreds of parents, and breaking up hundreds, perhaps thousands of families. No way!

  39. ” do not “need” to learn to be “more tolerant” of men who diddle and/or impregnate little children, or rapes grown men or women”

    No one asking you to be more tolerant of such folks. I said “more tolerant” of polygamists. You seemed have been snookered by the some of the oldest propaganda tricks in the book. When demonizing a minority sect, take the alleged acts of a few and apply it to the entire group. This has been done with blacks time and time again, same with Jews.
    In Kosovo around 1989, during the beginnings of the Yugoslav ethnic wars that tore the country apart, an ethnic albanian soldier went crazy and shot up some ethnic Serbs…the Serbs used that as an excuse to tar all ethnic Albanians in Kosovo as potential murderers and rapists, this and many other such individual incidents is what touched off the Civil wars that eventually consumed Yugoslavia. The anti-polyg propaganda is so so familiar.

  40. duane for the millioneth time, POLYGAMY is against STATE and FEDERAL laws!!

    Lawrence vs Texas had NOTHING to do with Polygamy!!!

  41. We are NOT talking about Kosovo, or Africa or Iraq!
    We are talking about the Laws IN UNITED STATES!

  42. You know, Duane, it’s funny but your pro-polyg propaganda is amazingly familiar too. In fact, much of the arguments you’ve used in the past I’ve seen used on sites advocating the right to have sex with children, and by that I mean pre-teens. No, I’m not calling you a pedophile OR a pro-pedophile, merely pointing out the similarity in arguments.

    What I find so hysterically funny, though, is that on one hand you advocate the FLDS being left in governmental control of Short Creek because of one man, one vote, but then turn around and say it isn’t fair for the rest of America to vote against a religious group establishing a theocracy in America. Apparently the Short Creekers are supposed to be able to vote for the rules and rulers that govern them, but the rest of us are supposed to listen to you and people like you or risk being “intolerant and haters”.

  43. Well Said Rebeckah, Im fizzeled out with duane! Making a point to him either goes over his head, or hits a brick wall.

  44. Yes, Rebeckah, I agree. Tiresome.

    It’s not about whether or not the people are bad. It’s that people will have a tendency to behave in particular ways in particular systems. Some systems work better than others. When there are no checks to the power of a person or group, then they tend to misbehave. It is not that the polygamists are bad people, although I’m sure that there are good and bad in every group. If a wife reports abuse of herself or a child to the police, the police call the bishop and the bishop tells her to go home and submit. If she falls out of favor with her husband, he just spends his time, affection and money elsewhere. Daddy can do what he wants and mommy’s only recourse is to get her sneakers and her water bottle and start walking towards Hurricane. This is not a good system, and that’s been proven time and again all over the planet. It is a primitive system based on force – force of religion, of economics, social pressures, isolation and control, physical force.

    When men start wearing burqas or lollipop dresses, I’ll consider that it might not be about the Y chromosome getting it’s way. Until then? It’s about him getting all the sex he wants from an exclusively held supply, plus getting the women to compete with each other for the privilege of his attention. The amazing thing to me is that these guys don’t all get murdered in their sleep.

  45. Duane will history do ya? You don’t know who I am. I’m not the fool you are. Do not make the mistake to paint me with your brush.

  46. Wonder if Boots made into YFZ to see the cemetary?

  47. Me too, deputydog1.

  48. 37,000 polygamists in the organized groups, estimates of another 50,000 or so who are independent or LDS doing it on the sly, that can add up in a close election.

    duane said this on July 10, 2009 at 7:24 PM

    Hey Duane I will go for polygamy if all 157,000 pligs (men and women) get sterilized.

    That way they cannot taint generations of children.

    Maybe they will become extinct.

  49. OUCH!

  50. susieq, dream on!!! They have existed over 100 years and will continue to do so for the next 100 years.
    Rebeckah, I don’t visit peodphilia sites.

    Interesting thing is, about the vast majority of flds families in short creek, their day to day lives are pretty much unscathed by all the recent action, other than the flds “activists” who are directly involved in the court battles, WillieJ and so on, flds families go about their daily lives as usual, doing what they’ve always done…working, supporting their families, doing the best they can to survive. So we debate back and forth on this black screen with white letters….but the day to day lives of most pligs is just as it has always been.

    So susieq, assuming you are not a troll, somewhere tonight, there are some polygamists tonight getting their freak on, making babies and producing more future polygamists and you can’t do anything about it…what a pity for you!!!

    I’m not polygamists, don’t care to be one, but I pray that polygamists live long, prosper, and crank out more polygamists just to see polygamists haters suffer.

  51. Really duane??? Is that what FLDS at short creek recieved notice, they had to start giving MORE money? The saturday meetings have been cancelled till further notice, but they NEED members to give more money.

  52. 6/15/09

    Update meeting is cancelled for tomorrow and until further notice. Do not be discouraged but exert greater faith with and for our Prophet.”

    Then Saturday, now that the “blessing” of the meeting is gone, here comes the predictable text to all the elders:

    “Dear Brethren, The storehouse is under great stress in meting its obligations. This is a special call to give all we can to take care of the needs of the Priesthood as soon as possible.”

  53. Jacob Nathaniel Jessop, 20, 3155 S. Hidden Valley Drive No. 300, St. George, was arrested Saturday on charges of driving on a suspended license, false information with another person’s identification and outstanding warrant. Jessop was booked into Purgatory Correctional Facility on $2,606 bail.

  54. Well Duane it is up for debate the flds families are being taken care off.

    Many of poor concubines and their older children are silently suffering in Shortcreek, because their husbands and fathers are living and working in the lands of refuges.

    Interesting you bring up Willie J? Are you a personal friend of his?

    I wonder if Willie’s children could speak freely, they would chose parents involved in plural marriage.

    To bad we cannot go back and ask Isaac and Ishmael the same question.

    Polygamy brought undue stress and discord into the family of Abraham and the world is still under it’s discord.

  55. is jacob nathaniel jessop the father of teresa steed’s baby?

  56. Yes

  57. I mean …No. Father of Teresa Steed’s baby is Nathan Carter Jessop

  58. “Rebeckah, I don’t visit peodphilia sites.”

    Duane, I sincerely was not trying to imply in any way that you are a pedophile. However, your arguments against statutory rape, particularly the part where it’s okay as long as the victim doesn’t complain, are identical to those of pedophiles. They claim that sex with pre-teens is also a “vitimless” crime and that children can and should be allowed to choose who to have sex with and when they can have it. In short, your arguments are familiar, and not ones used to advocate for anything even remotely good.

    And I’m still wondering about how you resolve the dichotomy of advocating for a theocracy in Short Creek (along with inherent abuses of Government power) as acceptable because the citizens of Short Creek have “voted” for their officials with your very vocal disapproval of the results of the rest of America’s votes AGAINST polygamy and theocracy and their inherent abuses. So what is it, Duane? Do we ALL get to govern ourselves (which does mean that polygamy is pretty much going to remain illegal) or not? Perhaps you need to run for office, since you are the only person who knows how to be loving and tolerant and allow for the slavery and injustice to women and children that you feel they deserve the right to “choose”.

  59. It’s only a voting block if it is all located in the same voting district and the size of the group is significant relative to the size of the district. NOT.

    And it’s an idle threat for the FLDS. Or to quote Willie “I don’t want to vote, but I will if I have to.”

  60. Define pedophilia. Legally, there is generally no such title for a crime, and the definition of sex assault of a child varies from state to state.

    I have copied quotes from Duane and put them in google and come up with a site that wants to repeal all age of consent laws and/or standardize them at 13-14. He lifted his words directly. Probably last year about this time on the trib.

  61. Betty, I think I remember him stating that pedophilia was acceptabel if the parents agreed and the child didn’t complain. (It was a while ago, so I could be attributing something someone else said to him, but I believe it was Duane.) I remember being floored by such total disregard for a child. Duane truly seems to feel that children are the property of their parents and not human in their own right at all.

  62. The medical definition of pedophilia (since it is a term for a mental disorder) is an individual who desires to or has sex with a pre-pubescent child.

  63. I have to respect Judge Lindberg in this case. With all the responses she has recieved, I wouldn’t want to be in her shoes. She cannot judge from an emotional standpoint, but a judical one.
    Wonder how long it will take for her to come to some decision?

  64. Yes, Rebeckah, I remember similar statements.

  65. Betty, that site you linked to, I never saw it before. As I have said before, my opinion on stat rape as in sexually mature individuals, the judge should have more discretion in determining such matters. A 15 year old who uses a fake id to get in a bar and has sex with an older guy who thinks she is 18…that should be a good defense, a 16 year old girl who is pressured or otherwise manipulated into sex by older guy…he should be punished.

    As it stands now, I wouldn’t have much of an issue with current laws but the sex offender requirements are outrageouos. A 20 year old with 16 year old gf, if caught even in Texas the criminal punishment is usually very light, usually probation. But he has to register as a dangerouos “sex offender” which is ridiculouos. A thug convicted of home invasion, tying up and pistol whipping the residents then robs them, when freed doesn’t have to register for anything. That kind of perp is who I would be more wary of.
    In Dallas, a guy was in his early 20’s busted for sex with 16 yo gf, they later married and had a kid, when they moved into a new neighborhood, he had to put up a “sex offender” sign, she went door to door explaining what the conviction was about, neighbors were totally cool about it and nice to them. HA! Their sign kept getting stolen by kids who would put it in the yards of other neighbors whom they didn’t like or as practial joke.

    I’m not interested in teens or even 20 year olds, My ideal is early 30’s even 40’s. But the biggest danger is young 20 somethings since they often hangout with teens, just the other day my nephew brought over his new gf, she looked 16 to me, I immediately asked how old she was-was 18 and showed me her id, those situations are what i worry most about.

    Back when I was 12 or 13 or so in the late 70’s, my dad was relating a incident in the late 60’s when his best friend was busted for dinking with a 16 year old girl, he was arrested but the charges were eventually dropped. The first thing I asked my dad was “had she done this with other guys?”, he said “sure, probably with lots of guys but she was too young for him”, I was like “ok, whatever”.

    There Betty I hope I explained my position to your satisfaction.

    Pedophilia is sexual attraction to pre-pubuscents, however they really like kiddies and dont’ meant to hurt them. Not all child molestors are pedos, the perp who murdered jonbenet ramsey would not be classified as a pedphile, but a sadistic child murderer along the likes of jefferey Dahmer whose victims were sometimes underage-but we don’t think of him as a child perp but as a sick and evil serial killer.

  66. Back in the 50’s a child was sexually assualted duane, the family took care of the preditor. He just disappeared.

  67. I think this Nathan Jessop is one of the Lost Boys.

  68. That’s possibl Anonymous. You know Jacob Natan Jessop the Old guy, owns JNJ engineering and Paragon Corporation in Las Vegas. Maybe it’s his son, or grandson or nephew or something.

  69. I’m sure when I return from Canada in the fall that Duane will be singing the same old swill. I may post if I get access.

  70. Jacob Nathaniel Jessop, 20, 3155 S. Hidden Valley Drive No. 300, St. George, was arrested Saturday on charges of driving on a suspended license, false information with another person’s identification and outstanding warrant. Jessop was booked into Purgatory Correctional Facility on $2,606 bail.

    deputydog1 said this on July 12, 2009 at 9:11 AM

    This is a 20 year old – right age for one of the Lost Boys. He lives in an area where many of them live and he was arrested for typical things these boys get arrested for – no valid drivers license, outstanding warrant (maybe an old traffic ticket he got while living in the Creek and the CCPD had a warrant issued for him for not paying it – which they do a LOT).

    I agree that he is probably one of the Lost Boys.

    And if he really is related to the owner of JNJ and Paragon, then we’re talking about a pretty high up FLDS member. One minor teenage screw up could have gotten this kid booted from the Creek, esp if he was part of a strict and powerful priesthood holder’s family. Poor kid.

  71. Yup!

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