FLDS Discriminatory Practices


This sign was recently painted on the back of the local produce store in Short Creek where customers park.  This is a privately owned business that serves the public.   There are no membership dues or applications, there is no club fee or membership selection criteria or any set of qualifications to join — this business is open to the general public.   I would love to hear from any non-FLDS who has been refused service at the local produce store.

Utah Attorney General Shurtleff apparently has not issue with discriminatory practices, so long as they are the practices of the FLDS and not directed against the FLDS.  The recent UEP settlement proposal submitted by Attorney General Shurtleff proposes that the public cemetery in Short Creek as well as the public park be subject to a similar dress code requirement.  I believe Shurtleff’s proposal would have non-FLDS  seek permission from the FLDS Bishop to gain entry into the cemetery/and or public park.  It just blows my mind that Shurtleff has signed off on this nonsense that is clearly illegal and prohibited by the U. S. Constitution.


~ by FLDS TEXAS on July 4, 2009.

97 Responses to “FLDS Discriminatory Practices”

  1. A catsuit ought to cover what’s needing covering.

  2. Where have these people been since the 1960s, Civil Rights and all that?

  3. Dont know about the rest, but Shurtleff’s been in office ……

  4. IM waiting for the sign that says, FLDS restrooms, and Apostate Rest Rooms.

  5. How bout we picket walmart, to put signs on their business that says, Only shorts and sandels can be worn in our store?

  6. Stores privately owned by Whites in the 40’s 50’s and 60′ refused service to blacks, IN 2009 thats AGAINST the LAW, and what FLDS are doing is against the law also!

  7. What if the local Schleicher or Tom Green County deli decided to institute a no-Prairie dress policy .. or no pastels, or no women with braids?

    Can you imagine the outrage you would hear from the FLDS about discrimination? It makes me sick that they have the gall to ever open their pie-holes about being persecuted or discriminated against.

  8. http://www.vancouversun.com/Life/charge+polygamy+seems+inadequate/1751431/story.html

    One charge of polygamy seems inadequate

    Fundamentalist Mormon leader Winston Blackmore married nine women who were under age 18

    By Daphne Bramham, Vancouver SunJuly 2, 2009

    Nine child brides. Yes, nine of fundamentalist Mormon leader Winston Blackmore’s 25 wives were under 18 when they were married.

    Four were only 15, according to the RCMP.

    Two were 16. Three were 17.

  9. Blackmore was 41 in 1998 when he married 15-year-old Lorraine Johnson. The first of Johnson’s four children was born a year later. He married 15-year-old Shalina Palmer that year, too. The first of her four children was born in 2000; the second conceived only days before her 18th birthday.

    (Johnson and Palmer — two “sister-wives” — eventually married each other in a 2005 civil ceremony. Johnson, like 15 of Blackmore’s other wives, is an American who had come to Canada without a visa. Palmer is Canadian.)

  10. DD—of course he wasn’t married to any of them—not to any one but his first and only legal wife, Jane Blackmore. The rest were sexually exploited minors.

    (I would love to read Jane Blackmore’s autobiography if she ever writes one—she probably knows more about the hearts and souls of polygamous women than anyone else.)

  11. I shouldn’t have written “the rest were sexually exploited minors.”

    I should have written that the ones under 18 should not be considered under age-of-consent laws for marriage because they weren’t married; they should be considered under sexual exploitation laws (and the Mann Act if they were US citizens moved to Canada for exploitation) because they were ages 14 to 18.

  12. I agree greetings, it just seems very sad, that these children became adults and mothers at such young ages. There was NO need for it to happen to any underage child!

  13. In re: the above photo—I agree it’s intended to be exclusionary, but I doubt it’s illegal. There is nothing inherently discriminatory in dress codes, and fine restaurants still sometimes require jacket and ties. Privately owned businesses are still free to do this (if not, someone needs to let Le Bernardin know).

  14. Well this builidng certainly doesn’t look like a fine dining resturant, and it needs a paint job. With it being 90’s to 100 in the desert, Im not sure a tourist traveling through would stop to put on long sleeve shirt and long underwear just to get a pop.

  15. GFNY got it right and beat me to it, you can discriminate according to dress. Ritzy restaurants and fashionable nightclubs to the same. Shortcreek sits at 5000 feet, not especially hot when compared to most of Texas and the low lying areas of the southwest like Phoenix, LV, and Yuma. I doubt this is aimed at tourists, researched usenet newsgroups as far back as the 80’s, they don’t have issues with tourists who hike the nearby mountains. Clearly aimed at the xflds who are trying to provoke them.

  16. Gee, Duane, you were doing so well until you decided to impart motives to the FLDS based on nothing but your almost FLDS-worthy hatred of apostates. Yes, it’s clearly aimed at X-FLDS. Yes, X-FLDS probably don’t feel the need to dress just like the FLDS. No, that doesn’t automatically mean they are trying to provoke something. Now some guys plowing under crops in the middle of the night would certainly qualify as a clear attempt to provoke. Wearing a T-shirt and jeans doesn’t.

    I agree, however, that private businesses DO have the right to institute dress codes if they wish too. I also wonder just what the reaction would be if Walmart or Costco instituted a dress code forbidding ankle and wrist length garments. Somehow I think the FLDS would be quite offended — perhaps even feel persecuted or attacked. Perhaps they should consider exercising some of that tolerance they’re looking for from everyone else.

  17. ok how about sets of elastic-gartered “sleeves” and “pantlegs” pull-ons for produce shopping.

  18. Under Texas FLDS they cannot keep anyone, ANYONE at all, out of the cemetery on YFZ breeding compound.

  19. About that sign and a dress code such as they have in public schools and high-toned restaurants.

    FLDS still CANNOT discriminate against race color creed religion age or any of that without heading for a federal courtroom in a Civil Rights discrimination case.

    Are your potatoes worth that?

  20. Is the store on the Utah or Arizona side?

    Since most of Shortcreek is on the Arizona SIDE it is a Goddard problem.

    I wonder if the dairy store has this policy?
    They would lose alot of tourist dollars.

  21. GrannyToad,

    Perhaps we should plan a trip to the YFZ Cemetery to lay flowers for the little boy killed when the driver of a vehicle there failed to have the children in seatbelts, and had an accident which threw him from the car?

    If several of us showed up together, writing them in advance of our arrival, stating our intention to visit….if they don’t let us in…perhaps we’d have cause to file a complaint with local law enforcement?

    From the looks of this code, you are completely correct, and they could not deny us access at all.

    If the AAAP was to organize a field trip to the cemetery, do you think many people would be willing to go with us to give it a try?

    Texas Health & Safety Code – Section 711.041. Access To Cemetery

    § 711.041. ACCESS TO CEMETERY. (a) Any person who wishes
    to visit a cemetery or private burial grounds for which no public
    ingress or egress is available shall have the right to reasonable
    ingress and egress for the purpose of visiting the cemetery or
    private burial grounds. This right of access extends only to
    visitation during reasonable hours and only for purposes usually
    associated with cemetery visits.
    (b) The owner or owners of the lands surrounding the
    cemetery or private burial grounds may designate the routes of
    reasonable ingress and egress.

    Added by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 634, § 22, eff. Sept. 1, 1993.

  22. http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2006/oct/27/boy-killed-ranch-crash/

    The boy’s mother had been re-assigned to another man after her “husband”, the child’s father had been expelled from the FLDS.

  23. I believe that this woman’s current husband was her fourth. If I remember correctly, one died and two got ex’d or vice versa. It’s not a good story to show how much more stable polygynous marriages are compared to mainstream marriages.

  24. I’ve had the copy for weeks but just sat down yesterday to Read Brent Jeffs book, LOST BOY.

    His home life actually seemed the most stable and normal of all the accounts of FLDS polygamist homes I’ve read.

    Honestly? That’s not saying much.

  25. Joseph Robock was the little boy who died’s son. And YFZ refused to allow him to attend HIS son’s funeral.

  26. *the little boy’s Father

  27. Yep, DD.

    I think it’s time for an attempt to visit that little boy, Allen Rulon Roebock, to pay my respects. I will let everyone know what day I choose and if anyone wants to join me, or the media I will invite to come along as I make the attempt, just let me know.

    Ron, or anyone else with any legal juju, can you tell me what the proper recourse will be for us if/when we are refused our right to visit the YFZ cemetery, so I can have it ready in advance?

    Do I call the Sheriff’s Office? Or will I need to write a complaint and send it to some bureaucrat in Austin? Any idea what we do when we are standing there with media, holding this Texas code in our hands and they won’t let us in?

  28. Joseph Robock was the little boy who died’s son. And YFZ refused to allow him to attend HIS son’s funeral.
    Actually he did attend his son’s funeral along with 75 friends and family. And also YFZ had nothing to do with it because the little boy was buried in Hilldale.
    The boy’s mother had been re-assigned to another man after her “husband”, the child’s father had been expelled from the FLDS.
    Why would you force a woman to stay with a man she doesn’t love?

  29. Alin,
    Why would you accuse me of trying to force a woman to do anything? I didn’t say whether it was a good thing or a bad thing — I simply reported the facts as best I knew them and pointed out that situations like that, not too terribly uncommon in the FLDS since Warren’s ascension, kind of make the claims that polygyny is a more stable marriage situation than monogamy ludicrous.

    As for her staying with someone she doesn’t “love”, haven’t you heard the news — it isn’t about “love” in the FLDS. Do you think the woman who had been married to Warren’s brother for decades, who (in Warren’s own words) “resisted” her reassignment after her husband had been ex’d DIDN’T love her husband? Perhaps she shouldn’t have been forced to stay with a man SHE didn’t love?

  30. Ali,

    I am going off of news reports, namely in the Eldorado Success, which reported on November 2, 2006:

    “The body of Allen Rulon Jeffs was picked up by Johnson’s Funeral Home in San Angelo. Private services were held for him at the YFZ Ranch where he was reportedly buried this week”.

    If they were wrong about that, can you please point me to the news story covering his internment in Hildale, Utah?

    Also, regardless if he is buried there, we do know they have buried at least one other body on the ranch, so I can go pay my respects to them anyway.

    As far as the rediculous assertion that I am trying to “force a woman to stay with a man she doesn’t love” well, darlin, last time I checked, FLDS concubines aren’t assigned to anyone for the purpose of love. They are assigned to breed, not love.

  31. Do you think the woman who had been married to Warren’s brother for decades, who (in Warren’s own words) “resisted” her reassignment after her husband had been ex’d DIDN’T love her husband?
    If she loved her husband she could have moved with him I suppose.

  32. Showing your ankles is ‘provoking them’? My elbows are too sexy for them? Come on.

  33. Ali,

    “If she loved her husband she could have moved with him I suppose”.

    You’re so right. As long as she was willing to spend eternity burning in Hell, she could have packed her little duds and gone.

    Unfortunately, she is a mental slave to the programing she has received since birth.

  34. In the churches in Italy, like the Basilica in the Vatican, you cannot enter wearing shorts or sleeveless shirts. The women cannot show cleavage. They sell paper/tyvek pants and shirts to go over your clothes for your visit at about $4 a pop. They no longer require women to cover their hair (as of 2000), although they did when I first went to Europe in the 70’s. Couldn’t get into Notre Dame in Paris without a scarf on your head.

    But vegetables? If you got Euros, they’ve got vegetables.

  35. Duane, why do you just make stuff up that can easily be checked? It’s 95 degrees today in Hildale, according to weather.com. That’s rather warm for a layer of long johns and then a full layer of poly/cotton.

  36. “As long as she was willing to spend eternity burning in Hell, she could have packed her little duds and gone.”

    And give up her children, more than likely. After all, they belong to the Prophet.

  37. See Ali, there are two graves on the YFZ, that means I can visit any day I like between 8am and 5pm.

    As far as the reporter claiming their were reports of unmarked graves on the ranch, well, that’s not exactly accurate. Advocates and anti=polygamy activist had warned Texas authorities of the FLDS’s propensity for leaving unmarked graves in Utah and Arizona, so this was a precaution.

    Their proclivity for doing this out there [leaving graves unmarked] is thoroughly documented, btw.


    “A dog unit was taken to the ranch to investigate reports of unmarked graves, but none was found. Two graves were found, but they had already been documented by the group”.

    Ali, I believe one grave is that of one of Warren’s concubines, who died of cancer and the other is Allen Roebock. If I am wrong about Allen, who does the other grave belong to? Is it an infant grave? Do you know?

    Also, do we have any idea what sort of treatment was given to Warren’s concubine who died of cancer? Was the doctor on the ranch treating her? Did she get any other treatment for her condition, or were they just “praying for her”?

    If Allen was buried in Hildale, as you suggest, does this mean he was he buried in the Babyland Cemetery?

  38. *********
    Joseph Robock was the little boy who died’s son. And YFZ refused to allow him to attend HIS son’s funeral.
    Actually he did attend his son’s funeral along with 75 friends and family. And also YFZ had nothing to do with it because the little boy was buried in Hilldale.

    Actually, Alin, you are wrong again!! It was Caden Stubbs that was buried in Hildale, even though weewillie winkie tried to block his funeral. Allen Rulon Rohbock was and still is buried at YFZ Ranch in Eldorado, TX.

  39. Boots,

    Read Warren’s dictions and you will know how Warren treated
    Barbara Barlow Jeffs before and after her death.
    The dications are on this blog.

    He also chose the cemetery site. It is in the dications.

    It was reported she was treated by a doctor in San Angelo in her later stages of breast cancer.

    There are three buried at the YFZ.

    William Sutherland Jessop, Allen Rulon Rohbock and Barbara Barlow Jeffs.

  40. “If she loved her husband she could have moved with him I suppose.”

    Sure, she could have turned her back on 50+ years of listening to every word the “Prophet” tells her and obeying. Or she could have done what she did do — go along and loose a little more of her soul and spirit in doing so. Here’s another “could have” scenario for you — Warren Jeffs COULD have left her alone to wait for her husband or to wait for her to choose to remarry.

  41. Thanks Anon, will do!

    Also, for anyone interested, Willie admits there are graves on the YFZ in this YouTube clip, just about 2 weeks ago…as he whines about the treatment he got in Texas.

    BTW, Willie, the blankets were to protect the identity of the child victims of polygamy. Y’know, like 5 year olds with 19 identifiable bone breaks, boys with damaged rectums and 13 year old girls who had already given birth.

  42. Yup 3, graves, as far as anyone knows.Barbara Jessop, William Sunderlund Jessop and Allen Rulon Rhobock. William just the Supreme Court hearing to return all the children home.

    NO, Although Joseph Rohbock called asked if he could attend his little boy’s funeral, he was told NO!!!

  43. Wiliam Jessop died on the ranch just before the Supreme Court hearing to return the children. Said he had a seizure or something.

  44. Okie dokie, that’s three people to visit.

    Anon, or anyone else want to give me an idea of which of the dictations posted here to look for info about poor Barbabra? I’ve got an older desktop….and these pdf’s take forever to download one at a time.

  45. So, Alin, are you trying to spread misinformation, or are you pleading ignorant to the facts?

    Just wondering…

    Winston’s wives:

    1. Jane Oler, 18, legally married in 1975. Divorced 2005. Canadian.
    2. Christina Gallup Blackmore, 15. Married in 1982, daughter of Leroy Gallup and Karen Quinton in Colorado City. She is a second cousin to Winston. American (although possibly now has Canadian citizenship)
    3. Mary Ann Gallup, 16. Married in 1985, Christina’s full sister. American (although possibly now has Canadian citizenship).
    4. Marjorie Johnson
    5. Sharon Johnson
    6. Susan Gallup, 15. Full sister to Christina and Mary Ann.
    7. Harmony Quinton, 15. Daughter of Barlow and Becky Quinton. American
    8. Edith Barlow. Daughter of Alvin Barlow. American facing deportation.
    9. Leah Barlow, 24. Daughter of Alvin Barlow. An RN and midwife, she was actively courted by Winston.
    10. Kandi Bateman.
    11. Catherine Broadbent, 16. Sister to Fawn Broadbent, returned to Colorado City after the split and took Winston’s son with her. Reassigned to ????
    12. Marsha Chatwin, 17. Married same day as her sister, Zelpha.
    13. Zelpha Chatwin, 21. Both Marsha and Zelpha are under deportation orders.
    14. Marleena Fischer, daughter of Vaughan Fischer (possibly Sharane is her mother?)
    15. Janelle Thornton Fischer, 16. Adopted daughter of Vaughan and Sharane Fischer. Her mother, Brenda Thornton, was briefly married to Vaughan Fischer before she died of cancer. Brenda’s sisters (one if Janet Johanson) tried to gain custody of Brenda’s children in the late 1980s and lost in court. American.
    16. Shirley Black Jessop. Daughter of Orson and Leora Jessop. American
    17. Jennifer Johnson. Daughter of Larry Johnson. Amerian
    18. Lorraine Johnson, 15. Daughter of Ray Johnson. American
    19. Diana Lane, 17. Daughter of Edwin Johnson. American
    20. Marsha Lane. Daughter of Edwin Johnson. American
    21. Ruth Lane. Daughter of Edwin Johnson. American
    22. Shalina Palmer, 15. Daughter of Morgan Palmer and Ruth McKinley. Canadian. Legally married Lorraine Johnson in December 2005 under Canada’s same-sex marriage law

  47. Barbara Barlow Jeffs died July 2004.

    Look for dictations before that.

  48. Thanks, darlin’, I did finally find it.

  49. Okay, so there we have it. Blackmore not only liked underage girls, he liked them from Colorado City, USA. And someone had no problems providing them.

    I’m sure you will run into the same things in Canada you do here, no victims willing to testify, all claiming “I’m happy and not a victim”.

    That’s nice, but only goes to prove my point about the cycle. You start as a victim, then become an abuser yourself.

    Each one, upon becoming an adult had the choice to stand up and say, “No thanks, I’m not going to continue to bring children into the world for the express purpose of teaching them to break the law, too”. But they didn’t, so they should be prosecuted for it.

    If we continue to allow people to go unprosecuted for religious practices that break our laws, how exactly are we going to stop Muslim Americans from using Sharia law here when they start to argue that other acts go unprosecuted here “out of respect for people’s religion”, by the tens of thousands?


  50. Pull the pubic hairs out of all the men? Did I hear that? Is that how they did the DNA tests? I thought they used mouth swabs.

  51. What? That doesn’t even sound right. A mouth swab is a better sample. Hair is useless unless you have a live root.


    Birth Date: 10/29/86
    Address : 527 N MAIN ST, LaVerkin, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    02:32:29 07/04/09 Trombley, Eric WCSO

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    41-6a-710 IMPROPER LANE TRAVEL/ CM WCJ7 40.00 40.00
    76-10-528 WEAPON-POSSESS-INTOX- BM WCJ7 587.00 587.00
    41-6a-526 ALCOHOL- OPEN CONTAIN CM WCJ7 100.00 100.00
    53-3-217 NO DRIVER LICENSE ON CM WCJ7 40.00 40.00
    41-6a-502 DUI-1st,2nd OFFENSE BM WCJ7 1340.00 1340.00

  53. Almost 3,000 in fines and they were paid same day…

  54. Betty-Boots, I don’t know if it’s still done everywhere, but getting pubic hair samples was an accepted way of getting evidence for comparison. I’m sure it’s still done [in some jurisdictions], along with swab DNA, for testing purposes.

  55. P.S. It’s usually done with a special comb, used for evidence gathering [in a rape kit, for example]….Although…in the old days, pulling them out by their little roots was an “acceptable” form of inflicting a bit o’ pain on the rape suspect during that evidence collection….

  56. I agree with Duane and Greetings. I don’t think a private business’s having a dress code is illegal. Lots of restaurants have dress codes.

    Would I like having to put on a long sleeved blouse and a long skirt to enter a grocery store? No.

    Perhaps the exFLDS should open their own grocery store in Short Creek.

  57. Sure, and next we can have grocery stores where no woman without a burqa is allowed in.

    Next, businesses run by Orthodox Jews can insist that no menstruating woman is ever allowed in.

    And finally, we can have malls where no woman is allowed in period, unless she is accompanied by her husband or other immediate male relative/owner.

    Or maybe we can have public libraries where no books are allowed to be exposed to the view of the public without approval of the local religious authority?

    By the way, if an ex-non FLDS person opens a grocery store, in Short Creek, will the utility company be required to hook them up, or are they allowed to refuse them service because their brand of business doesn’t fit into the FLDS standards?

    Requiring shoes and shirt for any business is “reasonable”. Even insisting that your customers order in English has been ruled “reasonable”.

    Requiring a jacket and tie in a fine restaurant is “reasonable”, for the type of business they run.

    Requiring someone to cover every last inch of skin, up to their neck to buy groceries doesn’t sound very “reasonable” to me.

  58. http://orthomom.blogspot.com/2007/04/muslim-taxi-drivers-cannot-refuse-to.html

  59. From what I understand from xflds, dresscode isn’t a problem. If I remember right, someone named Cement from Brooke Adams blog said although he and his wife are xflds, his wife still wears the long dresses etc daily. The date on the picture is Quite telling.
    Since all the responses were filed, don’t you think?

    We have respones from Bruce Wisan, Lost Boys, Elissa Wall, Harkers, AG from Arizona, AG from Utah, Wiilie Jessop and FLDS members.

    And the picture was taken June 30, 2009. Ironic eh?

  60. Y’know what’s really funny, DD? I could probably pass their dress code most of the time if I’m not in jeans. I NEVER wear shorts or short skirts, but usually long skirts to my ankles.

    You can say it has to do with modesty…or that I’m probably one of the world’s whitest women, lol…and don’t wish to show my jiggly thighs or blind anyone with the whiteness of my legs.

    The night Flora and I were confronted and boxed into the health clinic by a Colorado City cop, when I stepped out I was in a skirt that went to my ankles, boots and a long sleave shirt. The neckline was probably too low, and I definitely had a waistline, but all in all, I probably could have gone into their store without sending anyone through the roof.

    The point is that I feel like women who want to wear shorts, or tank tops, or wahtever else they want, should be able to hop out of their car and go buy a cold Coke if they want to.

    Yeah, the date is definitely telling us something, like maybe Shurtleff is finally going to be tagged as pandering to people in the constant commission of a felony, with a propensity to believe they can trample on anyone’s rights they want to as long as they do it “for religion”.

  61. The word from restaurant Pierre Gagnaire (6 rue Balzac, Paris) is that the FLDS will be admitted with a few minor modifications to their dress. Men of course are expected to wear jackets, dress trousers, and clocked hosiery with slip-on calfskin shoes; neckties are optional. FLDS women will be permitted to keep their quifs; the more hairspray, the merrier. However, the restaurant decrees that the pleated shoulders make them wince; they must be balanced with a cinched waistline and heels. Gagnaire himself has also suggested that a plunging neckline would make the pastel colors slightly less déclassé.

  62. Greetings,

    :::SNORT::: out loud even!

  63. Its very disheartening for family to be pitted against family. That’s what gets me. Most all these people are related in some way. And they have been split right down the middle. As a mother myself, it’s blinding to me that a mother can just consider a child who leaves the community, or allows one to be kicked as a loving mother. That’s just my own opinion. If one of my children had a drug or alcohol problem,, yes it would break my heart, but the first thing I would do, is anything possible, to get them help, let them know I love them unconditionally, regardless!!

  64. Not all of them dress in pastels, y’know, haven’t you seen the dark colors worn by the dominant concubines?

  65. DD, we very much agree on that. I was struck by Brent’s description of tearful mothers driving their sons out of town to be dumped, and how he could understand their fear that if they didn’t they risked losing their whole family instead.

    Sad, sad, sad….and still criminal.

  66. “Sure, and next we can have grocery stores where no woman without a burqa is allowed in.

    Next, businesses run by Orthodox Jews can insist that no menstruating woman is ever allowed in.

    And finally, we can have malls where no woman is allowed in period, unless she is accompanied by her husband or other immediate male relative/owner.”

    Yes, they could, but it would only actually work in a community dominated by whatever group that wants to make those rules. In the majority of America you (as a buisness owner with such restrictive rules for dress) would go out of business pretty quickly.

    As for the library thing — that goes back to federal funding. If it’s a library that has recieved any funding from federal sources at all they wouldn’t be allowed to censor books or institute dress codes based on religions. (They’re certainly allowed to shoes and shirts and that sort of basic hygiene stuff.)

  67. Actually, I just reread that sign and I don’t think it IS legal.

    It’s the first sentence—“We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.” That violates the public accommodations clause, methinks.

    If I lived in Short Creek, I’d show up in that store in a different long garment every day: a haz-mat suit, a Pikachu costume, a burqa, long underwear with a lime-green halter dress, a medieval gown with wimple and mantle, overalls with a Green Bay Packers cheesehead hat. When they banned me, I’d sue.

    Rebeckah hit the nail on the head. This isn’t about the clothing code applied to this business; it’s the threat that the clothing code will be applied throughout Short Creek.

    Any of the institutions which are publicly or municipally owned and/or financed (library, police department, Cottonwood Park, cemetery) can’t dictate that patrons wear religiously-approved clothing. And since the library is located in Arizona, it’s pretty presumptuous of the Utah AG to insist otherwise.

  68. Pull the pubic hairs out of all the men? Did I hear that? Is that how they did the DNA tests? I thought they used mouth swabs.

    They do use mouth swabs. About the only time pubic hair is used is when they try to take a hair follicle drug test and the person doesn’t have enough hair on their head.

    Willie sure does have a problem with the truth. Besides, most of the men were no shows for testing.

  69. Ron, I just watched Willie’s YouTube clip and I’m wondering something you might be able to help with — is it normal for the evidence seized from the ranch to still be in the hands of Law Enforcement? I rather assumed that with 12 men’s cases pending that it was. I seem to remember reading of victims of crimes who didn’t see things like their clothing worn during a crime for years afterwards. So, is this normal? Or is Willie making much ado about nothing again? Just curious.

  70. is it normal for the evidence seized from the ranch to still be in the hands of Law Enforcement?

    In general, law enforcement doesn’t see it as their job to reunite owners with property seized. Also, you’re generally not entitled to return of your property until the matter is fully closed. (Whether through LE closing the investigation or through the end of criminal prosecution.) So, to the extent LE views property seized as part of the larger investigation into abuse at YFZ, it would be entirely possible that what Willie said was true.

  71. Ron – when the second warrant was served, they also served warrants on several of the men to collect blood and saliva for DNA. This was done well before the 14 day hearing where Judge Walther ordered DNA testing. I believe all of the men under indictment had DNA samples collected in the first days while the raid was ongoing.

  72. Does anyone know who I need to file a complaint with once the YFZ refuses to let me visit the cemetery on their property, since they will then be in violation of a Texas Health and Safety code?

  73. BTW – private businesses that serve the public may not discriminate on the basis of religious beliefs. A dress code is one thing if it is applied universally and there is no discriminatory purpose or effect. The prohibition in the sign would probably be a violation of the civil rights act of 1964 because there is no business purpose for the exclusion and it’s purpose is to exclude people based on religious beliefs and practices.

  74. In other words, there is no right to refuse service to protected classes of people; no right to discriminate by a private business serving the public.

  75. FLDS Texas, then I imagine all they have to do is document the establishment in question serving someone not in compliance with the dress code. (i.e. A tourist.)

  76. Boots apparently that is not an easy question to answer.

    Here’s a link to the Texas State Cemetery site.

  77. This is weird. Sometimes my gravitar image shows and sometimes it doesn’t. I’m sooooo confused…

  78. Ron,

    Yeah, hon, I’ve been there. You’re right and there is no clear answer for recourse. I certainly wouldn’t want to bother the Sheriff. That doesn’t make sense, since it is a Health & Safety code.

    But I’m thinking that the ileagal act of dumping is reported to the same folks, right? So I’m trying to identify the actual entity I would file my complaint to.

    I was a bit worried that there is a line in there exempting “Family cemeteries”, though it doesn’t define that at all…and since the FLDS was successful in proving that they are not one big family, but a compilation of different families on the ranch, I think they already blew that argument for themselves.

  79. Well, the law about access does apply to private burial grounds but it does allow them to restrict it to certain hours and for “purposes usually associated with cemetery visits.” (Whatever in the hell that means.)

    My guess is that no one really knows who enforces this law and will probably want to pass the buck. I’d say ultimately it falls on the Texas Attorney General’s office.

  80. I figured my picture problem out — I apparently have two accounts — one as Rianya and one as Rebeckah. oooops. Okay, I’ll go get back on as Rebeckah — I like to stick to one identity if possible.

  81. Ron, nope, just got off the phone with the code enforcement officer in Eldorado, and I will file an official complaint to the county judge, since the YFZ is not in the city.

    “purposes usually associated with cemetery visits.” (Whatever in the hell that means.)

    I think it would mean I can’t have a parade, party or picnic in their cemetery, but paying my respects certainly falls into the purposes usually associated with cemetery visits.

  82. So, you’re really going to go out to the place and ask to pay your respects at the cemetery? Make sure you bring a video camera for that one.

    I figured you’d get the big bureaucratic pass off. I guess the Schleicher County folks are going to make sure their FLDS neighbors follow the law. I wonder what other provisions of the Health and Safety code they’ve violated?

  83. Ron,

    Bring a video camera? LMAO, nope! I’ll have full news crews. I wouldn’t worry about documentation. One of two things will happen: They will let me in to pay my respects, or they will violate Texas Health & Safety Code and refuse me my rights as a Texas citizen.

    Place your bets now.

  84. Well, just get a tape and post it on Youtube.

  85. Rebeckah, I have that problem sometimes also. I have a self who is me (this one), then one who is a historical re-enactor, then I have one who sells fiber art. Folks think that I am trying to fool them or something, but that’s not the case. It’s easy to lose track of which profile is in control.

  86. If the county court judge of Schliecher county is Griffin Boots, good luck! youll need it, because Griffin is the one who just had FLDS build a building for him

  87. Nope, I was given the name of two judges and neither one of them was Griffin.

    I will say, however, if it had been Griffin, and he refused to accept my complaint, or take action on a code violation, or recuse himself, considering he had financial dealings with residents or former residents of the ranch; his butt would be mine.

    I fully expect anyone who has hired them to do anything will have their stomachs turn when the evidence in the trial comes out.
    One man who came to see us at the signing in San Angelo was just as proud as he could be that he had hired them to build his new home. He told us his brother had been on the grand jury that handed down the indictments and his exact words to him were, “I will never, as long as I live, step one foot into your home”.

    Now I wonder what a grand jury member, who had seen the evidence himself, was so incredibly disturbed by? Hmmm?

    Unfortunately, the brother having the house built just didn’t get it. Duh!

    I hope Judge Griffin is appointed and not elected. Because when the evidence comes out I doubt his friends and neighbors are going to look too kindly on his willingness to extend the benefit of the doubt to these folks.

  88. Actually, Alin, you are wrong again!! It was Caden Stubbs that was buried in Hildale, even though weewillie winkie tried to block his funeral. Allen Rulon Rohbock was and still is buried at YFZ Ranch in Eldorado, TX.
    Yah you are right. I posted that before I read the link so was thinking of a different case.

  89. I’m curious. As far as I know Warren Jeffs was the only adult male force to comply with a DNA test per a court order. I’m not sure why they needed one directly from him because due to incarceration rules it should have already been on file. But any way since the topic came up I find myself rather curious.

  90. Alin, I rather imagine it was a matter of covering all bases. They have evidence of at least one of Warren’s wives giving birth at 15 years old and if they wish to prosecute him for that they will probably want DNA evidence gathered by their own people to prove the case. I’m guessing it eliminates challenges of faulty storage of DNA evidence, chain of evidence issues, etc. Just a guess on my part, but it makes sense to me.

  91. “I fully expect anyone who has hired them to do anything will have their stomachs turn when the evidence in the trial comes out.”

    Who is “them”? The evidence at the trials will only have to do with those particular defendents.
    Are you saying that if one is guilty, they are all guilty?
    What exactly defines who an FLDS person is anyway? Many of you argued on Brooke’s blog that there is no “FLDS” per se. So these guys who built this man’s house, what if they aren’t one of those who are indicted, would that be ok?

    Another question, if someone denies a job or contract to a fundie Mromon, could they be sued for religious discrimination?

  92. “What exactly defines who an FLDS person is anyway? Many of you argued on Brooke’s blog that there is no “FLDS” per se.”

    What are you talking about? No one that I’ve read about has said that there is no FLDS church. They’ve said that it isn’t the UEP and the the UEP doesn’t “belong” to them as they didn’t actually exist when it was formed.

    “Another question, if someone denies a job or contract to a fundie Mromon, could they be sued for religious discrimination?”

    I imagine the answer to that varies by individual state but for the most part private citizens do not have to do business with anyone they don’t chose to do business with. When Federal funds are in the mix, however, there are anti-discriminatory rules which need to be considered.

  93. In the formal sense, there isn’t an FLDS church. They aren’t registered, have no legitimate leadership, and no known membership list. This has nothing to do with whether their faith is valid but it does make them a non-entity in the UEP negotiations.

    They can fix that, of course. As a group they can ordain a leader, register as a religious group, and tell the state who they represent.

    For all we know, there are only 200 hard-core FLDS left in the flock and all Willie’s posturing is “a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”

  94. In all of the discussion in this string, I see no entry providing what was asked: a story of discrimination.
    I was uneasy shopping at the store, which by the way does not sell soda pop, it sells produce and dairy products, since they put up their offensive sign. However I did not have any problem wearing pants and shirt, which incidentally had long sleeves.
    Then….(dramatic music)…. came the day I was running across town on an errand and realized that the produce store would be closing in a few moments and I need to pick up some vegetables. So I turned into the drive, told the two girls in short sleeves they had to stay out in the vehicle while the two with long sleeves could come in with me. The older girl was wearing a knit top with long sleeves and a long denim skirt… the shirt had a low v neck and the skirt had a split up past her knees but it passed “code”. The little girl had a long sleeve shirt and pair of pants and as little girls will dress up, a little sheer ballet skirt. She also passed “code”.
    Da da da da da da … we did not have any trouble entering the store. Wow. Ok, it must be all right to shop. We chose our items and went to the counter to make our purchases. There were a number of cold stares from FLDS customers in the store, but we are used to that by now.
    The girl rang us up and took my form of payment. But before she handed me my receipt she asked if I had seen their sign outside.
    Now, I was actually dressed modestly. I was wearing a skirt, just past my knees. Solid grey, no offending bold colors or designs. I was also wearing a knit top, a dull purple but the sleeves only came to just above my elbows.
    I told the young girl, after a moment’s hesitation, that yes I had seen it. She looked at me as if to say “well?” I told her that I thought some one was being ridiculous.
    Poor girl was very uncomfortable with a confrontation but had called for backup… a big guy came in just then. She handed over my purchases and said that it was what had been asked, pleading with her eyes, and told us that they appreciated our business.

    Now I know the people at the produce store, they have been friendly at times when other store proprietors have been very cold at best and confrontational at worst. I like these people and the service they offer and I would hate to see the store fail. But until that sign and dress code are removed, I intend to boycott and invite any others who feel the same to join me. They are a small store, I wonder how they would survive with business cut in half.

  95. Why are you all worried about what elliot barlow got arressted he didnt hurt anyone it only hurts himself thank gosh but what does that concern any of you ad he also bails himself out noone else did it for him

  96. That was just a post from TWO years ago, no comment that I saw.

    Probably just posted because of the last name and being near shortcrick.

    How is Elliot doing now? Hope all is well.

  97. I go in the stores at the crick , I go & do my business buying things & pay for them , the sheeple can stare & glare at me all they want , I’m in there getting things I need, then I get out ! sure I don’t like the stares, I get , but it’s best just to go about your business anyway , let the sheeple stare all they want ! Be nice even if they aren’t to you ! >>>>>> other-Anon

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