Open Discussion 7

Continued from Open Discussion 6

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on July 3, 2009.

618 Responses to “Open Discussion 7”

  1. Judge Tullar was a wise judge, but his giving FLDS the benefit of the doubt, did no good! They gave their word to the judge, and LIED!

  2. DD – I agree completely. His remarks were right on the money, except he shouldn’t have let them go with probation and a promise.

  3. From previous open discussion related to who’s the prophet now:

    Im betting John Wayman, he just basically gave YFZ ranch 900,000 dollars. Can ya buy being Prophet?
    deputydog1 said this on July 3, 2009 at 12:22 PM (edit)
    ——————-

    DD — i seriously doubt any money changed hands on that deal. It was a sham of a loan. It was a way to secure attorney’s fees and then stiff the attorney. It was also a way to make it appear that there is a prior lean on the property so it cant be taken to satisfy a judgment.

    Someone else mentioned Kendall Johnson — I doubt it. Kendall didn’t have much pull, and all of his sons were kicked out in the years prior to Warren’s capture.

    I think Lyle is Warren’s stand in and decision maker

  4. I don’t know why any of them would ever be given probation, or the benefit of the doubt on anything. A basic tenent of their “church”, straight from the recorded lips of Warren Jeffs [a man they all hold in the same esteem as Christ, btw] is that it is okay to “Lie for the L-rd”.

    We saw that when Texas CPS failed to seperate mothers from the children, when the FLDS continually attempted, and sometimes succeeded, to subvert CPS ploicies by sneaking items such as photos of Warren Jeffs and cell phones to the children while in custody.

    Any judge that says, “You’re honorable men and I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt” at this point, needs to be audited to see if any large deposits have recently entered their accounts.

  5. Okay, what about Nephi Jeffs, he was the bearer of Warren telling everyone he wasn’t the prophet.

  6. Or it’s possible, it will be William E Timpson

  7. When is it legal for a safety net in Utah, to enable people to disobey the law? It is important to help women who are abused get out of the situation, but the Safety Net committee is assisting polygamist women to live against the law!

  8. I dunno, DD. I really can’t name any other state AG, except Shurtleff from Utah, who is a featured speaker at a conference designed to help people known to actively be in the commission of a felony to safely garner taxpayer assistance. Do you?

    I can’t think of any other U.S. health and Human Services Secretary, except for Leavitt from Utah, who has openly declared that a felonious act “may enjoy religious freedom”.

    Course I can’t think of any other U.S. Senator but Orrin Oatch, from Utah, on the Judiciary Committee, who defends people known to actively and openly engage in felonious behavior either…

    I guess when he made the statement that if you showed him any child abuse done by the polygamist he would “get involved”, he didn’t mean child abandonment or child endangerment.

    These guys just need to be more specific about what they mean, maybe?

  9. Well you might also remember, when Harry Reid was talking about an investigataion from the FBI on trafficking and Fraud of FLDS,
    Robert Muller said he didn’t see a need for an investigation! JERK!

  10. I have not seen any recent posts from deci, duane, duaneh1,skinwalker. A permanent ban is probably too much to hope for, however after his racist comments and profanity I think a temporary ban is appropriate. Maybe a year or two. What does FLDS Texas think?

  11. Wow, Ale I must of missed those remarks by duane?

  12. He paid a visit to my blog last night and tried his usual bs. I gave him a warning and he hasn’t tried again. Maybe he is trying to chill out, or has found someplace else to post his drivle.

  13. Utah State Code

    76-7-101. Bigamy — Defense.
    (1) A person is guilty of bigamy when, knowing he has a husband or wife or knowing the other person has a husband or wife, the person purports to marry another person or cohabits with another person.
    (2) Bigamy is a felony of the third degree.
    (3) It shall be a defense to bigamy that the accused reasonably believed he and the other person were legally eligible to remarry.

    UTAH CONSTITUTION

    Article 3 Section

    The following ordinance shall be irrevocable without the consent of the United States and the people of this State: [Religious toleration — Polygamy forbidden.] First: — Perfect toleration of religious sentiment is guaranteed. No inhabitant of this State shall ever be molested in person or property on account of his or her mode of religious worship; but polygamous or plural marriages are forever prohibited.

  14. Now someone PLEASE tell me How Utah could have this statute and NOT enforce it????

  15. Yep, that was the condition we gave them for statehood.

    So they lied to get into our union. The whole position of “There are too many to prosecute”…exactly at which point did they reach that marker?

    Oh well, maybe they were “Lying for the L-rd”.

  16. Why have laws at all, If Attorney Generals of states Aren’t going to enforce them? Why in the hell do they think the youngins that ran or left FLDS, ended up on Drugs and Alcohol?? Geez, what is it going to take????

  17. I dunno DD, but I can tell you EXACTLY what one of them said to me on the San Angelo Standard Times board, right before they shut the whole thing down for a month:

    “Texas has just started the next Civil War”.

    I said, “Excuse me, but did I just hear you threaten to make WAR on the state of Texas?”

    The comments section of the site was immediately closed down, and all comment archives had been erased when it went back up.

  18. Who said that, Boots?

  19. Y’know what GrannyToad, I can’t even remember who said it. That board got so hot I can’t even remember. I just remember being stunned the next day when everything was gone and they had posted a message about a “cooling off period”.

    Not long after that I got the call from the Texas Rangers. I got the disctinct impression the Ranger was attempting to contact/identify everyone who had been posting.

    I didn’t take it too serious in the moment, honestly. Like I said the board was so hot I never expected something like a shut down. I’d been accused of everything from being a “Jewish witch” complete with the power to cast spells, to a whore….so I just never expected a complete shutdown…or a wipe out of the archives.

    I can guarantee you the Texas Rangers have every word though…and were tracking people down to get them identified.

  20. I didn’t use any profanity, also Boots, on your blog I didn’t mention any names. You really need to take cultural sensitivity training the next time the safety net committee offers them.

  21. Also, I never made any racist comments.

  22. Yes you did.

  23. DeputyDog: The flds administrators probably deleted his offensive posts before you saw them. Once he, duane, posted a link to a KKK site and recommended that people visit that site, IMO, many of the flds supporters are racists, misogynists, anarchists or some combination of all three. If you read warren’s dictations it is evident that he shows those same leanings. After all, Birds of a feather …

  24. duane I guess your hypothetical question framed in highly racist remarks didn’t work too well. What were you thinking? Using asteriks to avoid spelling out a profanity didn’t work any better. Defending your posting insures that the deletion and your banning is justified. Why don’t you get yourself an attorney? He can explain to you that your veiled hypothetical question and use of asteriks were obviously unacceptable.

  25. Duane, I read the comment in question and I am remarkably thick-skinned (not to mention dark-skinned) so I will try to help you understand the objection.

    Creating a fictional bogeyman which says that which we are afraid to say ourselves is an inflammatory rhetorical concept, usually meant:

    1. To say indirectly what we are afraid to say directly;
    2. To give voice to our inner fears in order to master them;
    3. As an unconscious expression of our inner desires.

    I think other readers were concerned that your hypothetical trash-talking patient really reflected your own views on race.

    I’m not a lawyer, but from what I read this morning, a medical clinic is a public accommodation in terms of the Americans with Disabilities Act. It’s a public accommodation in Arizona’s civil rights code. It is a public accommodation under the Civil Rights Act if it engages in interstate commerce (as Dr. Barlow does)

  26. Dear All,
    I will be in D.C. in August and hope to stop in at a variety of senate/house offices to make my concerns about flds known. I would like to create a 2 page info sheet or summary that I could leave. Anybody have something that have already created….?
    HHG

  27. HHG–no, but what a GREAT idea. Will think on it.

  28. Deputy Dog you have to get Merrill Jessop and Wendell Nielsen into jail.

    If it happens, it will take years and the cancer keeps on growing.

    The cancer keeps on growing all over the State of Texas.

  29. HHG:
    I applaud your efforts to make the activities of the flds crime syndicate better known to our federal legislators. I have not prepared such a document, but will peruse some websites to see if anyone else has.

  30. Happy Independence Day, my friends. I was reading about N. Korea’s missile firings which have so far landed harmlessly in the Sea of Japan, and am reminded that we have spent most of our history under one sort of threat or another. And still we persevere.

    The threats are part of the human condition; our survival is a gift from God, for which I give profound and heartfelt thanks. Of all the times and all the places to be born, I am here. Thank you, my Lord.

    I pray for our soldiers around the world. How many millions of them have spent Independence Day far from home? In my memory they march in an unbroken line from the grandfatherly WWI veterans I knew as a child, to my father and his generation who served in WWII, to the invisible Korean vets, to the young men who returned from Vietnam in defeat, to my own peers who served worldwide in the last quarter of the last century, to this current generation of children we have sent off to Afghanistan and Iraq.

    There are those who believe this is evidence that we are a warlike and aggressive nation. This is of course utter bosh. We hated by those who wish to keep their people in bondage, who recognize our values of democracy, capitalism and freedom as potent threats to their regimes. For cult leaders—whether they’re in Short Creek or Pyongyang—knowledge and freedom are the mortal enemies of fanaticism.

    At any rate, I’m off to the farm for the simple pleasures of a country holiday—a parade through a small hamlet, fireworks in a field, and loud, bad music.

    Blessings.

  31. Chemist, I haven’t put together anything like that although I’m toying with the idea of a timeline of quotes from women made miserable by religiously mandated polygyny. If you want any editing assistence feel free to e-mail me. My perfectionism comes out with the written word and I’m pretty good at it. 😉

  32. HGB,

    I have a feeling you will need an editor, considering so many of us will be trying to submit something you can use.;)

  33. AAAP Blog Site, March 2009

    duaneh1 said…
    This San Angelo group may be able to help you out:
    http://www.tckkkk.org/home.html

    March 25, 2009 12:31 PM

    Boots said…
    No offense intended but there seem to be a lot of k’s in that address link. Exactly where does it take a person?

    March 25, 2009 12:54 PM

    duaneh1 said…
    It is a peaceful group that “seek to promote virtuous womanhood, Christian Integrity and Americanism among our Kindred”

    March 25, 2009 1:09 PM

  34. O so that’s his bigoted cult.

  35. Today, as we celebrate our American freedom, I also wish for that same kind of freedom for all the women and girls in the FLDS.
    The freedom to pick their own husbands
    The freedom not to be ruled by a profit who is willing to tear a family apart on the whim.
    The freedom to wear clothes that are still proper but give them more room to be comfortable.
    The freedom to question without fear.
    The freedom to learn, study and further their education.
    The freedom to be an individual in all things.

  36. Okay I just went to that website duane posted.. Duane I have ONE word for you… “SOB”

  37. The freedom to access birth control.
    The freedom to grieve for their own dead children.
    The freedom to escape poverty.
    The freedom to protect their children from physical and sexual abuse.
    The freedom to travel unrestricted.
    The freedom to have and read books of their own choosing.
    The freedom to keep wages earned.
    The freedom to refuse to be admitted to mental institutions.
    The freedom to refuse to “Keep Sweet”.

    Freedom from the abuse and crime of polygamy

  38. I just got back from our july 4 parade, I was so honored to every branch of the military involved and honored to be in their presence. America fought long and hard for their Independence, and there will always be “HATE” groups, who because of the freedoms each of us attain, having hate groups is allowed in this country, as long as they don’t take actions which are illegal.
    FLDS is considered a Hate group itself, and like KKK have created an Ugly view of itself because it teaches , not all men are created equal!!
    KS and those who belong to it, are NOT a hate group, they are very different in many opinions, yet come to gether when it comes to abuses against children and women!
    And, are willing to do whatever it takes “legally” to protect the rights of those who cannot protect themselves.
    Im SICK of the words,Nazi and KKK!!! Duane you call people that support protection and freedom of women and children that one more time, Im sending an abuse report to wordpress.

  39. Just a thought, and I am no lawyer, but….would it be possible for any US citizen(s) to file a federal law suit against people like Mark Shurtleff and the people at the Safety Net Committee for aiding and abetting in the State and Federal crime of polygamy? Couldn’t charges be brought against them for aiding and abetting a crime?

  40. Hey, HHG, when you are in Washington talking to people, see if there is a possibility for a group of US citizens to bring charges against people and public officials that aid and abet in the crime of polygamy. I am willing to bet that we could get a very LARGE group of people together to file this petition.

  41. would it be possible for any US citizen(s) to file a federal law suit against people like Mark Shurtleff and the people at the Safety Net Committee for aiding and abetting in the State and Federal crime of polygamy

    No, you wouldn’t have standing and there isn’t any such cause of action under the law. You would also have problems of governmental immunity for folks like Shurtleff.

    Couldn’t charges be brought against them for aiding and abetting a crime?

    Theoretically, the Federal government might (big emphasis on might) be able to bring such charges. Likelihood it would ever happen? Zero.

    I think the time and effort would be best spent in getting the Feds to bring charges for clear Federal crimes that have been committed yet remain uncharged.

  42. Same old predictable duane. He is the one who calls people with viewpoints different than his haters and bigots. However, he is always ready to send people to a hate group site like the KKK. It seems like he is very familiar with the KKK sites and most probably has their URLs saved as favorites. How long must we put up with his racist, sexist garbage on this web site and on Boots site. I recommend that he be banned for a loong cooling off period.

  43. At the time I posted that, Kdee was soliciting assistance from other organizations. Since the KKK is anti-catholic and anti-jew, I figured they would be anti-mormon fundie as well. I didn’t know at the time that Kdee was a jew…sorry.

    I have read most of Mein Kampf and read and own a copy of “The Turner Diaries”, gave it to my son and he read it as well…rather chilling book. I also voted for Obama not cuz he’s black nor do I agree with much of his domestic agenda, but mostly because of his foreign policy. I’m not racist, while none of my best friends are black, many of my friends are Messican, I’m even married to one.

    However, I’m currently looking for some black friends so I can prove to everyone I’m not a racist. This couple has been rather successful in collecting black friends:
    http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/

    Another great site
    http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/01/21/14-having-black-friends/

  44. For no particular reason atall, raise your hand if you know the logical fallacy Ad Baculum.

    (I was reading something over at Brooke’s blog, I think maybe something about the Harker farm, anyway some weird misbeliefs, how if you don’t dontate your underage daughter you can get tossed out of your home).

    Or in some other case maybe have your babies ripped from your breast, as they say, and you get locked away in some house of hiding, maybe even in some foreign country.

  45. Ron and all
    what i have in mind is a list of causes for concern about flds and then some action items like – ask them to look into the course of the federal investigation, to look into federal options with respect to decertifying the towns to bring external law enforcement into the city, to be aware of the shurtleff proposal of religious segregation which would surely contravene federal laws, to push for an IRS investigation, to push for Reid’s proposed task force. Those are the actions I think could take place at the federal level.

  46. How bout we start with LLC’s in Individual leadership names, and they should have to prove by IRS withholdings from employees paychecks that those corporations have taken out withholdings and social security, and that the corportations matched what was taken out for social security.

  47. IRS should be asking for individual payroll sheets for each of these Corporations in which ONE individual owns several businesses under one name.

  48. I think the time and effort would be best spent in getting the Feds to bring charges for clear Federal crimes that have been committed yet remain uncharged.
    Ron in Houston said this on July 4, 2009 at 12:57 PM (edit)

    ———-

    Ron, I agree with you 100%. If the Federal investigation has stalled out, it may well be because the powers that be perceive that the public is not interested in those aspects of FLDS criminal activity. After all RICO is a difficult statute and usually makes people’s eyes glaze over. There has not been a great deal of public attention on the possible Federal charges, and making a lot of noise to indicate public interest may be just the thing that pushes the Federal aspect in the “go” direction. I hope so.

    It is looking right now like nothing is happening on the Federal level, and I read some comments that the the investigation had been shut down. If that were true, I hope that there has been or soon will be another change in plans — I hope that the decision makers come to realize that the public does care and the public does expect law enforcement agencies to enforce the law == even if the top brass are afraid of negative publicity.

  49. “Since the KKK is anti-catholic and anti-jew, I figured they would be anti-mormon fundie as well. I didn’t know at the time that Kdee was a jew…sorry. ”

    Do you seriously expect us to believe this drivel. You have done this before and most decent americans are apalled by the KKK and other white supremacist sites. You most probably did that on Boots’s site on purpose knowing she would be upset by the material on that site. You should send your flds buddies there. They have a lot in common with the KKK. Sure, you thought the
    KKK would be anti mormon fundie, again you are trying to ratioanalize and apologize yourself out of yet another stupid post.

  50. Y’know, I find it really hard to believe Duane about anything he says. I also know he was actively posting on the San Angelo Standard Times board, when I was being called a “Jewish witch” by other posters.

    I don’t want to keep harping on this, because frankly, he doesn’t deserve any more attention. It is quite clear that we all see through him and others like him.

    In a rather reflective mood a few weeks ago, right before the tour, I posted an entry on the AAAP blog titled “The Soul of an Activist”. That’s about as much as I have to say about the KKK or any other group so wholly dedicated to any completely Anti-American ideology.

  51. Boots, the only thing duane is good for is as a foil against others reading this blog. Which is a very good reason to not ban him. Others that may be “on the fence” will read his posts, see what type of people support the FLDS and also read the sane and humane posts of ours that counter duane’s extreme hate and racism. That is really the only reason I ever reply to any of his posts, to point out the “sick” thinking of the FLDS and it’s supporters.

    The “duane’s” are needed to keep showing the sickness of the FLDS and its supporters.

  52. For heaven’s sake, Duane, I have tried to be your friend for over a year but you keep doing dumb stuff that makes me embarrassed to be seen in public with you.

    Hint, folks: if it has “KKK” in the URL, you should know better than to visit.)

  53. I agree LadySadie. That’s why I’ve never requested him to be kicked out. That’s also why I have left many posts on the AAAP blog up, unless they were obvious attempts by anonymous posters to try and make it look like people with an anti-polygamy views were indeed bigots and haters.

    His nastiness does have side benefits, exactly as you point out.

    I’ve got pretty think skin, too.

  54. I am just never that piqued at Duane. He reminds me of a three-year-old who’s just learned his first bad word: he has to try it on with everyone.

  55. And come on guys and gals if we didn’t have idiots like duane to laugh at life would be pretty boring.

  56. GFNY,

    Yep. I did notice all those K’s, which is exactly why I asked him about them…and never hit the link myself. Eeeewwwwwww.

  57. LOL,GFNY, there are sooooooo many times I swear that duane is a 12 year old boy whose parents neglect to watch what their son is doing on the computer.

  58. Well, I looked to be sure it was a real website,,,and it was. I consider duane a middle aged man, needing confirmation he is a dork. Well he has confirmed that fact for me! lol

  59. LadySadie is right: People like duane and mudpuckey really help our cause and hurt the flds. Like, with friends like them the flds really don’t need enemies. I noticed that when Brooke called mudpuckey a gadfly no flds supporter posted a comment objecting to it. The flds, I think, realize that duane and mudpuckey are really hurting them.

  60. duane, posting any of the websites you have posted and then saying you are not racist (or anti-semitic or whatever) is hypocritical tripe.

  61. Can anyone tell me why my gravatar image doesn’t post here?

  62. I see an image. Maybe you just need to reload the page. It looks like a man bouncing a baby in the air, with a blue back ground.

  63. Betty said: …”then saying you (duane) are not racist (or anti-semitic or whatever) is hypocritical tripe.’

    Amen to that Betty, a LOUD amen to that.

  64. Thanks, Betty, I see it now too. It’s my son with my oldest grandson (his nephew) in the pool about 4 years ago. He’s not only a very involved Dad with his kids, he’s a very involved uncle with his neice and nephew too. 😉

  65. I don’t believe that Duane is racist. Duane’s wfe is Mexican. Duane is an Anglo. If Duane was a racist, he wouldn’t have married a Mexican lady, would he?

    You also seem to forget that we apologists are opposed to persecuting anyone because of their race, ethnic group, or religion. Remember all our posts about stopping genocide and comparing the persecution of the FLDS people to the way the Nazis treated Jews? Most of us are educated and believe it is morally wrong to hate or mistreat anyone because of their race, religion or ethnic origin.

    It is your group that thinks it is acceptable to hate religious minorities. If it was acceptable to hate Catholics, I’ll bet you would hate Catholics. If it was acceptable to hate Muslims, I’ll bet you would hate Muslims. If it was acceptable to hate Jews, I’ll bet you would hate Jews. Since you seem to think it is acceptable to hate Mormon Fundamentalists, you hate Mormon Fundamentalists.

  66. So April, like Duane, what you are saying is that if we want the laws against polygamy enforced, because we believe the law is right, and polygamy is an abuse of women and children, then we are “haters and bigots”?

    I see, so anyone who wants Meth dealers prosecuted is a bigot against drug manufacturers? Anyone who wants child abuses prosecuted is a “hater and bigot” to abusers etc…. right, uh huh, okay.

    I think you, like Duane, need to learn the difference between persecution and prosecution.

    Cling, April, cling desperately to your delusions, ‘cause it is obviously all you’ve got.

  67. April, who is “US”???
    You kept saying Most of “US” that post are against genocide? Where did you dig up that anyone here believes in genocide? That was an incredibly STUPID statement!
    As far as hatred goes, you have bad mouthed baptists, texas rangers, san angelo texas, judge walther, the laws in general.
    Do I consider you a bigot? No, I just consider it your opinion. It would be nice, if you tried to understand other’s opinions.
    Going to church or believing a certain doctrine doesn’t make YOU any better than anyone else. If businesses in Utah who practiced some other religion other than yours put a sign up like that, you would be Screaming your fool head off.

  68. Deb Lee wrote: “It is your group that thinks it is acceptable to hate religious minorities. If it was acceptable to hate Catholics, I’ll bet you would hate Catholics… [blah, blah, blah].”

    That’s rich, seeing as you’re the one who is always trashing the Catholic Church.

  69. “If it was acceptable to hate Catholics, I’ll bet you would hate Catholics”

    I’m speachless.

  70. April has her passport to heaven, the BOM,, remember? LOL

  71. Sadie, you have no room to talk about Duane.

    I do not think it is right for a teacher to think it is acceptable to hate any religious group. Ignorant people think it is acceptable to hate people because of their race, religon or ethnic group. If you were my child’s teacher, I would go to your school board and demand that my child be transferred to a different class.

    I also object to the vulgar language you use in your posts. Intelligent people do not use crude language. You are lowering yourself by using dirty words. If you must pepper your posts with vulgar language, your vocabulary must be small. The use of profanity and vulgar language is related to the dumbing of America. What do you think your students’ parents would think if they read the crude language you include in your posts? I’ll bet they would wonder if you are using filthy language in the classroom.

    I am not saying this to be mean or hateful. I am being honest with you. This is intended to be constructive criticism. I want my children to be educated by teachers who are culturally sensitive to others. I want my children to be educated by teachers who are more tolerant and less prejudiced than you are. I want my children to be educated by teachers who have higher morals and standards than you do.

  72. I haven’t trashed any churches.

  73. Hallo, Deb Lee, it’s kind of nice to see you again.

    I would trust LadySadie with my child anytime. My grandchildren, too. She doesn’t hate any “religion.” She hates the perverted use of religious dogma to keep women and children in bondage.

    As do I.

    I’m so glad you haven’t trashed any churches, alinusara. No need to start.

  74. Holy crap! LadySadie used a vulgarity and I missed it?

  75. She hates the perverted use of religious dogma to keep women and children in bondage.
    ============================================================
    I dunno. To me, true bondage is the government telling families what to think.

    What children believe is in the exclusive domain of their parents.
    -Wisconsin v. Yoder, 406 U.S. 232 (1972)

  76. The right to religious freedom does not mean I must honor the FLDS’ religious beliefs. I have every right to think the teachings of the FLDS’ prophets are degraded, dangerous, and a one-way ticket to hell.

    As Ron in Houston said recently, we need to get over the idea that all beliefs are equally deserving of respect. Some are just plain stupid.

  77. Wow, I missed my vulgarity too, GFNY, Deb Lee why don’t you repost my “vulgar and crude language” or “dirty words”. Also any post where I have posted that I “hated” anyone, where I have put down ANY race?

    Now on the other hand I can repost dozens of your posts where you have denigrated the catholic religion, the bapist religion. Where you have posted very BIGOTED statements about southern (Louisana to be specific) policemen.

    I pray everyday that no one I ever know has you for their CNA, as you have posted that instead of doing your job you sit on the computer while you are supposed to be working. And your “knowledge” of anything medical is sorely lacking.

  78. I have every right to think the teachings of the FLDS’ prophets are degraded, dangerous, and a one-way ticket to hell.
    ============================================================
    I absolutely agree believe it or not. You have the first amendment right to think that.

  79. Alin, in the context of Deb Lee’s criticism, LadySadie has the same right as anyone else to hate the dogma of the FLDS. That is an extra-legal question, as I’m sure you know.

    The problem is whether it’s possible to separate dogma from action. See Judge Tullar’s remarks here: https://texasflds.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/1853-judge-remarks.pdf.

    It’s been 56 years of empty promises to obey the law. You know what they say: “Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.”

  80. The right to religious freedom doesn’t even mean that I have to think the FLDS is a religion at all – there is NO religion called sexual molestation. The right to religious freedom gives NO ONE the right to commit CRIMES and the FLDS doctrine is built around crimes. I have and will continue to advocate and fight for the ENFORCEMENT of the LAWS of this nation. If your lifestyle is ONE big crime then you run the risk of being put in prison. If your lifestyle “thang” is ONE big CRIME then your children should be taken away from you. You do NOT have the RIGHT to raise your children in a manner that dictates that they MUST commit crimes.

  81. Why is it always “hate” to someone who breaks the law when you cry out for the law to be enforced? I “hate” what the Mormon church teaches in regards to guilt inducing, mind numbing, coercive practices. I hate the fact that its fruit is often a desperately depressed, often suicidal individual unless they are total perverts who get “off” on the power trip they can have over others with their arrogant assumption of superiority. I cry over the women and children who have been desperately miserable over the years trying to achieve some unrealistic standard of perfection. I am particularly grieved at how much pain the self-serving, male oriented practice of polygyny has cause and still causes today. Even in mainstream LDS ranks there are women who are miserable because they’ve been taught that they will have to share the man they love in heaven. But I don’t limit myself to the Mormon faith. I can’t stand the same qualities in the Catholic Church, Baptists Churches, Scientology Churches and so on and so forth. But I don’t think hating doctrines which bring pain can, in any way, be likened to “hatred and bigotry”. Even the Bible said, “By their fruit you shall know them”. The Mormon faith has just as much rotten fruit as any other authoritarian, elitist, doomsday religion.

  82. Only total simps believe they can love everyone and everything.

  83. If your lifestyle “thang” is ONE big CRIME then your children should be taken away from you.
    ======================================================
    Only if you are abusing your children
    ======================================================
    You do NOT have the RIGHT to raise your children in a manner that dictates that they MUST commit crimes.
    ======================================================
    No one dictates, well at least not directly that anyone commits crimes. Christians inadvertently do at times however. Some countries it’s a crime to spread the gospel. Other countries it’s a crime to own the bible.

  84. Alin, the only ones I am worried about are the ones that live in the United States, Polygamy is a crime in every state in this nation. It is a crime to rape little girls in this nation. Maybe you should try reading wsj’s dications, and learn what he “dicate’s” to his subjects.

  85. Polygamy is a crime in every state in this nation.
    ===================================================
    I’m not too terribly shook up about it as long as all participating individuals are at or above the age of consent.
    ===================================================
    It is a crime to rape little girls in this nation.
    ===================================================
    Some of them are young enough that I much like you have a feeling of the ICK factor. Not exactly little girls however. But never mind that. I’ve said more then once, if Texas can prosecute the crime without traumatizing children or violating the Constitution then go for it.

  86. Is it more traumatizing to be removed from familiar surroundings or to be raped by a man twice or three times your age, alinusara?

    Have YOU ever been raped? While being told that it’s what God wants you to endure? Hmmm?

  87. It’s less that they tell their daughters they have to commit crimes than that they tell them they shall be passive victims of crimes.

  88. And their sons, too—because they are responsible for those boys until they’re 18, and to turf them out before that is also criminal.

  89. The FLDS doctrine says for ANY (male or female) to reach the “celestial” heaven they MUST commit the CRIME of polygamy. The children ARE being raised with a doctrine that says they MUST commit illegal acts.

  90. “It’s less that they tell their daughters they have to commit crimes than that they tell them they shall be passive victims of crimes.”

    And they’re supposed to LIKE it and “keep sweet” about it.

  91. Name one other “religion” in the United States whose core tenet states that its members MUST commit a crime.

  92. It’s less that they tell their daughters they have to commit crimes than that they tell them they shall be passive victims of crimes.
    ============================================================
    I dunno. When I saw Oprah there was a lot of happy, single girls around about high school age. None of them seem to be a victim of a rape.
    ============================================================
    And their sons, too—because they are responsible for those boys until they’re 18, and to turf them out before that is also criminal.
    ===========================================================
    I dunno. Any 17 or younger boy could turn himself in to the nearest police station and his parent would be charge with neglect. That is of course, the boy didn’t run away himself. Anyhow I’m sure we would have heard of a lot more cases.

  93. Unfortunately, kids are traumatized any time their parents are arrested and prosecuted, but that doesn’t mean we can suspend law enforcement. Every time a drug team batters down an apartment door and makes arrests, the suspects’ kids are subjected to the grueling experience of a home invasion coupled with watching Mom and Dad be led away in handcuffs. To me that’s an order of magnitude worse than what happened in Texas.

    And it happens tens of thousands of times a year in the US. But who wastes much sympathy on them?

  94. Name one other “religion” in the United States whose core tenet states that its members MUST commit a crime.
    ========================================================
    If you are talking bigamy which I assume you are. Not all members of the FLDS are bigamist. I’m the type to ignore what goes on in the bedroom as long as it’s between consenting adults.

  95. Alinusara, they didn’t show you the PREGNANT teenage girls on the Oprah show. The ones younger than the age of legal consent, yanno?

  96. Unfortunately, kids are traumatized any time their parents are arrested and prosecuted, but that doesn’t mean we can suspend law enforcement. Every time a drug team batters down an apartment door and makes arrests, the suspects’ kids are subjected to the grueling experience of a home invasion coupled with watching Mom and Dad be led away in handcuffs. To me that’s an order of magnitude worse than what happened in Texas.
    ===========================================================
    Yah but luckily in those cases children can go with friends and family members who are sensitive to their needs while mom and pop get their act together legally.

  97. Didn’t answer my question, Alin. Ever been raped, yourself?

  98. Well then Alli, I guess it is a good thing you are not law enforcment, then. I don’t care what you want to “ignore”, as long as law enforcment does it’s job and upholds the LAWS of this nation.

  99. Alin, the kids who were in foster care in Texas for two months had a WONDERFUL time. Most of them didn’t want to go home. They cried when they left their caregivers.

    And now they’re trapped in the bubble again. How you gonna get ’em out?

  100. Alinusara, they didn’t show you the PREGNANT teenage girls on the Oprah show. The ones younger than the age of legal consent, yanno
    ===============================================================
    There was only 3 pregant women on the ranch at the moment of the raid. One 22 year old. A monogamous relationship with her 24 year old husband
    One 18 year old. She conceived when she was 17 which is perfectly legal in Texas
    One 17 year old. Teresa Steed. 16 when she conceived. It appears to be a potential crime in that case but no charges filed against her suspect hubby.

  101. Well then Alli, I guess it is a good thing you are not law enforcment, then. I don’t care what you want to “ignore”, as long as law enforcment does it’s job and upholds the LAWS of this nation.
    =============================================================
    Pfft they do that all the time. They get tired of their speed trap catching people going 5 miles over the speed limit so reset their radar gun to 10 miles over.

  102. Yoo hoo, GFNY, where’s the link to that New York newspaper spread shwoing the 17 year old girl with the two year old baby in her arms?

  103. Alin, the kids who were in foster care in Texas for two months had a WONDERFUL time. Most of them didn’t want to go home. They cried when they left their caregivers.
    =======================================================
    Actually I was going to say something sarcastic and whimsical but changed my mind. Some may have formed emotional attachments to their care providers. Survivors of Stockholm Syndrome tend to do so.

  104. Hmmm, you mean she was 15 when she gave birth texasrattle?

  105. Only picture of a girl and a baby that I recall was that woman that they needed to redo the dna test of her baby on. Her picture was taken at Annette’s Jeffs house. She was 19 and her baby was about a year and a half.

  106. I believe so, LadySadie.

  107. Here is the link to the NY Times photo spread

    http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2008/07/27/magazine/20080727_FLDS_SLIDESHOW_index.html

    LeAnn Jeffs, 17 (center), and her 1-year-old daughter

    Veda Keate, 19, and her 2-year-old daughter at their rented home in Converse, Tex.

    An investigator from the Texas attorney general’s office collects DNA from the 2-year-old daughter of Janet Jeffs, 19, in San Antonio.

  108. Thank you, LadySadie.

    LeAnn, 17 yrs old, child born when she was 16, impregnation at 15.
    Veda, 19 yrs old, child born when she was 17, impregnation at 16.
    Janet, the same.

    None of these women have legal marriage certificates. None of them are the only women their baby daddies have impregnated.

  109. Alinsura10/Celia
    Im not going to argue with your stinkin thinkin or April Day/Deb Lee’s either. No need! I dislike human beings who “force” children to commit crimes, and then call it religion.
    And more and more of these “types” so called religions are popping up everywhere…
    It’s okay for you and Deb Lee to allow FLDS member to treat xflds like [expletive deleted-Admin.]! Because that’s what they are doing. And guess what, FLDS members wouldn’t LIKE you either, because your a gentile!! God Forbid!! LOL

  110. Loretta Jeffs was 12yrs old when married to warren and gave birth at just before her 13th birthday!

  111. Cat get your tongue, alin?

  112. “Yah but luckily in those cases children can go with friends and family members who are sensitive to their needs while mom and pop get their act together legally.”

    That is not always, or even mostly, the case. Generally children in such circumstances, just like the children at the ranch, are placed in an emergency foster care situation while matters get sorted out. If long term foster care is needed THEN the state will begin the process of qualifying family and friends who step up to offer to take the children. (IF family and/or friends step up.)

    “Survivors of Stockholm Syndrome tend to do so.”

    That is rude and unworthy. There have been NO accusations from anyone dealing with the children in their foster care situations that indicate they were improperly treated. I’ve read several accounts on the Truth Will Prevail site that indicate the children felt as secure and comfortable as it was possible to feel in such an alien environment and that they recognized the efforts by their caregivers to do their best to respect their unique cultural needs. You make a base accusation with that flippant remark. How are you any different from any of those you call “haters and bigots”?

  113. Sic ’em, Rebeckah.

  114. Alinusara/Celia is like that rebeckah, She lives to make disgusting comments. She really needs therapy.

  115. You do NOT have the RIGHT to raise your children in a manner that dictates that they MUST commit crimes.

    LadySadie said this on July 6, 2009 at 5:29 PM

    Amen LadySadie. AMEN!

  116. Alinusara/Celia is like that rebeckah, She lives to make disgusting comments. She really needs therapy.

    deputydog1 said this on July 6, 2009 at 9:24 PM

    Gosh DD, that was pretty harsh on Rebeckah. I don’t find her comments disgusting at all.

  117. deputydawg, Yeah…rebeckah is as bad as that Alinursa/Celia chick.

    In other News…This just in!!
    Mohave County Supervisor Gary Watson (right), Dist. 1, presents a check for $24,198 to Colorado City Town Manager David Darger Monday, July 6, at the County Administration Building in Kingman
    http://166.70.44.68/blogs/plurallife/2009/07/this-just-in/comment-page-1/#comment-42663

    You know guys, Mohave County is doing what it can to help out Colorado City by sending tax dollars their way in order to help them maintain their infrastructure provides a perfect example of civic cooperation.
    Looking at that photo of Mohave County Supevisor Kirk Watson and Co City town manager David Darger shaking hands for the camera complete with that $24,000 check, I couldn’t help but get a warm and fuzzy feeling. What about you guys, especially Boots and LadieSadie, can you not help but get those warm and fuzzies when seeing how two local officials came together to cooperate and share public funds?

  118. DID YOU FIND IN YOUR RESEARCH THAT WARREN TOOK MANY WIVES THAT WERE FROM THE NEWELL STEED BLOOD LINES. WARRENS MOTHER NAOMI WAS THE DAUGHTER OF WOODRUFF STEED, NEWELLS’ BROTHER.

  119. “deputydawg, Yeah…rebeckah is as bad as that Alinursa/Celia chick.”

    Really? Please, elucidate. I don’t know how either of us (or perhaps any of us, if Celia is someone other than Alinursa) are “bad”. I think Alin has made some comments based on little, if any, actual fact, but I haven’t read anything “disgusting”. I found the Stockholm statement to be a very poor attempt at melodrama, though. It’s right up there with claims of genocide and equating the investigation of the ranch with “attempted murder” and (my all time favorite so far) suggesting that Ranger Long is somehow responsible for a trigger happy officer in Texas tazering a belligerant old lady.

  120. Alin wrote: “If you are talking bigamy which I assume you are. Not all members of the FLDS are bigamist. I’m the type to ignore what goes on in the bedroom as long as it’s between consenting adults.”

    In Utah, polygamy and bigamy are interchangeable terms, and the crime is a third degree felony for both actors. Not so for many other states, which say bigamy is a misdemeanor and polygamy is a felony. The distinction is in “exercising a purported right to plural marriage.”

  121. Alin also wrote, in re: children of drug dealers: “Yah but luckily in those cases children can go with friends and family members who are sensitive to their needs while mom and pop get their act together legally.”

    They don’t automatically go to family or friends—many end up in foster care, and it’s not nearly as select as the care given to the FLDS children.

  122. Duane mentioned the Mohave County infrastructure money. The back story, Duane, is that Mohave County denied them funds until they brought their municipality into compliance, which they’ve now done. Read the Board of Supervisor minutes here:

    http://legacy.co.mohave.az.us/calendar/calendar.asp?View=MONTH&date=7/7/2009&SectionID=ALL&month=7&year=2009

    What this really says is that Colorado City is a municipality, not a commune, and as such is bound by our laws to be non-discriminatory. No “gentile” ghettos, please.

  123. O my heck, that hypocrite they call cupcake wants to find a teacher for her children that will raise their exposure above the bigotry she teaches them? Maybe taken from her home? April, I judge by what folks do over their “pious” words, and yes that is directed at you.

  124. Where did you get your misinformation about YFZ pregnancies, Alinusara? I am curious to match it up with correct propagandists, even if you made that up from whole cloth on your own.

  125. GFNY wrote: “The back story, Duane, is that Mohave County denied them funds until they brought their municipality into compliance”

    In other words duane deci is spouting off ill informed nonsense yet again. No surprise that he has not researched the details of the story before he spews garbage on the comment board.

  126. I don’t think it matters much how many young girls were pregnant on the day of the raid. The proof of sex with minor girls is what’s going to send the “Priesthood” elite up the river for a very long time.

  127. FLDS Texas, I have created a two page petition to congress with a third page of references – could you post it for editing by other readers? I will be in DC in August and intend to stop by as many offices as I can
    Let me know if you can/will post and how to get it to you.
    hhg

  128. I was just sharing the news posted on Brooke’s blog that CO City got some cash from Mohave County, whick is a good thing.
    I think its great that the muncipality is now in “compliance”.

  129. Duane, I’m glad you are eager to see the FLDS in compliance with law and order.

    Are you also in favor of them being compliant with Texas law, out in Eldorado?

    Texas Health & Safety Code – Section 711.041.
    Access To Cemetery

    § 711.041. ACCESS TO CEMETERY.

    (a) Any person who wishes to visit a cemetery or private burial grounds for which no public ingress or egress is available shall have the right to reasonable ingress and egress for the purpose of visiting the cemetery or private burial grounds.

    This right of access extends only to visitation during reasonable hours and only for purposes usually associated with cemetery visits.

    (b) The owner or owners of the lands surrounding the
    cemetery or private burial grounds may designate the routes of
    reasonable ingress and egress.

    Added by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 634, § 22, eff. Sept. 1, 1993

  130. Boots, if the deceased is a family member or friend or otherwise someone you know..sure!

    But if you are trying to visit just for the purposes of harrassment, then no.

  131. I’ve never considered visits to a cemetery, even those where I personally knew no one there, to be harrassment, Duane.

    Obviously, like the FLDS, you believe they should be exempt from having to follow any laws they don’t like.

    They aren’t going to get to have a “secret cemetery” here in Texas, like they have in Short Creek, Duane.

    Our cemeteries are supposed to be public and the YFZ cemetery is no exception.

    As a citizen of Texas I have a right to know what’s going on in anyone’s cemetery, dawn to dusk, 365 days a year.

    Visiting to pay one’s respects, even to someone you did not know in life is a purpose usually associated with cemetery visits.

    But thanks for answering, even though I knew what you would say.

    Fortunately for me, I have the law on my side.

  132. “Boots, if the deceased is a family member or friend or otherwise someone you know..sure!”

    I used to wander through the cemetaries in Connecticut all the time. Granted I probably DO have some ancestors in any of them (my family goes back to the Mayflower) but I wouldn’t actually know who they were. But I like cemetaries. They are a fascinating visual history. I used to wonder about plots that had five, eight, sometimes more headstones over a two year period — was it disease? Overwork? Battles with natives? But I sure hope I didn’t harass anyone by visiting those cemetaries.

    (Did you know there’s a cemetary in Bridgeport, Connecticut where Tom Thumb, one of the smallest men known to have lived who was in Barnum and Bailey’s original circus, was buried? His headstone has a lifesized statue of him on it. I believe his wife is buried next to him too.)

  133. There are some cemeteries in S. Indiana that have beautiful limestone statues mand headstones carved from the local limestone. Visitors are encouraged by the chamber of commerece visitors guides to visit those cemeteries.
    Limestone from those Indiana quarries was used to build the Empire State Building, the pentagon and many other notable structures. So No, you do not have to have a family member in a cemetery to be able to visit that cemetery.

  134. When I lived in Austin, I’d stop by the cemeteries in these little towns. (Actually there was one right by Loop 360/Hwy 183 right in Austin.)

    It’s interesting to see these folks who lived in the bygone era. The slave graves in these cemeteries are also quite interesting.

  135. I’ll offer this as proof, Duane, that I indeed have a personal history of honoring people in cemeteries that I never knew personally, in life.

    From an email I sent in November of 2007
    Dear Bill,

    Thank you so much for the wonderful service you provided to us here at the Avi this Veterans Day weekend. During the portion of the ceremony where the remembrances were held, all I could do was to sit glued to my seat and cry. I am the daughter [step, although he raised me from the time I was four] of a Viet Nam veteran and it is simply something we never talk about. About the only thing I know about my step-father’s service is that he came home with a Bronze Star.

    I actually know much more about SPC James Kiehl’s service. He “came home” to my town in 2003. James was from the little town called Comfort, right down the road from my ranch, which was in Center Point. Comfort, Texas, where James was from had about 1,200 people. My town, Center Point had less than 700. This is very small time Texas…which as you will see has nothing to do with the size of people’s hearts at all.

    James was a member of the same convoy that Jessica Lynch was in. We all knew for days that someone from that convoy had survived and been rescued alive. For days our entire community held its collective breath waiting for news, hoping that it would be James who was rescued. But it wasn’t, it was Jessica. I remember sitting in a restaurant that day during lunch when they broke in live with the news on TV and showed pictures of her. I remember looking around at everyone else as we were all so torn between being happy for her and her family…and yet at the very same moment we all knew it meant James wasn’t going to come home the way we wanted him to. It was an excruciating moment for all of us. It was eerie and quiet as the full force of what it meant hit us all. Everyone laid down their forks. Everyone was quiet. It’s terrible to have the feeling, watching someone who has survived and wishing it was someone else…a terrible terrible feeling and we all knew as we looked around at one another with tears in our eyes and heavy hearts that we were feeling the same thing.

    James didn’t want to be buried in a military cemetery; like all Texans he had only wanted to come home. So his father and mother arranged to have him laid to rest in the cemetery in my little town, Center Point. Like I said, Center Point is very small, with less than 700 people who live there. There is nothing remarkable to the casual observer about Center Point, Texas at all. It’s just a tiny dot on the map in one of the most beautiful places on earth, known as the Texas Hill Country. But as people drive through Center Point on the small state highway that runs through it, what they will probably never know is that Center Point is the final resting place for many Texas heroes. Because Center Point, Texas is the final resting place for over 32 Texas Rangers, more than any other cemetery in the state. Center Point is where the best of the best come to rest. So James was coming home to the Texas Hill Country to be laid beside generations of Texas Rangers.

    My daughter was in school at the Center Point High School and came home the afternoon of James’s funeral to tell me the following story:

    They made all of us leave the school and stand in the road with flags to wait for the funeral procession to come to the cemetery all the way from Comfort. That’s why I’m so sunburned. And I was mad all day that I had to stand there in the heat. Then when the car drove by and I stood there and I saw into the car that his wife was in and I saw her face, I lost it. And I felt bad for being so mad about having to stand out there, because I saw her face and it was horrible.

    She sobbed as she told me the story.

    I was standing at a different place in the road that day, at the entrance to our ranch, all of us were. All of Center Point, Texas, stopped. The world as we knew it had stopped for all of us as a hero came home to rest with us.

    I wanted to stand up Sunday and say James’ name but I knew I would have fallen apart if I had, so I sat there instead, quietly. I was so thankful for the last toll of the bell and the last salute for those of us who simply couldn’t bring ourselves to say anything out loud. Thank you so very much for that.

    I Googled James’s name yesterday, hoping to find his unit numbers so I could reference them and was stunned to find the very first thing that showed up was a listing on Snopes.com. I wasn’t sure why his name would be on a site dedicated to the debunking of urban legends and myths. When I found the link I followed it, thinking maybe it was about something else, but it wasn’t. There it was, my little town and James’s funeral….categorized as “True”.

    Yes, sir, that’s us, miles of us, all of us, both brown and white, there to welcome him home to Center Point. I still visit James and all those Texas Rangers whenever I go home. It’s a nice place to sit a spell and think about where I come from and what really matters in life.

    I have a picture, taken the first Memorial Day after James came home. I was having a rough time personally and thought I’d go out to the cemetery very early in the morning, right after the sun came up, to sit and think all by myself. Once I got there I realized that the local Masons had beat me out there and were making sure that every Texas Ranger and every American Veteran had his flag before the sun was good and up. I titled the picture I took that morning, “Center Point’s Sacred Trust”, and have attached it, along with one I called “The Road Home”, which is why every Texan wants to come home to be in bluebonnet heaven.

    Thank you so much, again, to you and your chapter, both for your service to our country and for your service to all Americans. I will never ever forget your sacrifice and the sacrifice of all those who protect our liberty. And thank you so much for coming to the Avi.

    And as always- Welcome home!

    http://www.snopes.com/photos/military/kiehl.asp#photo
    http://home.comcast.net/~cytdad/index.html

  136. Yes, I’ve stopped by cemetaries too, but we all know the reason you want to stop by Boots. Who knows, maybe they will let you visit for a few minutes, but again you are just trying to harass them and are not visiting “only for purposes usually associated with cemetery visits”.

  137. “only for purposes usually associated with cemetery visits”

    As i read that, Duane, it means paying your respects. I definitely intend to pay my respects to little Allen, 3, killed when the driver of a minivan crashed. Allen and another young boy were both being driven around with no safety belts or child restraints.

    Just as I visited the babies buried in the Babyland Cemetery in Hildale, to pay my respects, I intend to pay them to Allen Rhobock, who was a victim of negligence by polygamists who have so many children they feel okay about taking chances with their lives.

    I will dress conservatively and respectfully, and I expect the YFZ to comply with Texas law. If they do let me in, I hope they are ready to let anyone else in who wants to pay respects as well, whenever they want, as long as the visit is during reasonable hours.

    If they ignore me, or refuse to allow me in to pay my respects I suppose they will have to deal with the consequences of the code violation once I officially report it.

    Having public cemeteries here in Texas will make it very hard for the same kind of accidental child deaths that occur in Mohave County, outside the view of the public eye, to escape the notice of their neighbors here.

    You will also note that the date on the code preceeds their arrival here in Texas, so there is no way you can accuse us of passing laws meant to “persecute” the FLDS.

    That was our law before they ever moved here.

    Welcome to Texas and get used to it.

  138. On a certain level I agree with Duane. I’m not certain that confrontation for the sake of confrontation accomplishes anything. If anything it reinforces the feelings of persecution that I think in the end make these groups more resolute to continue their practices.

    Yes, I agree they should follow the law, but I think it’s a case of choosing ones battles wisely. I just don’t see much up side to trying to make them comply with open cemetery laws.

    On the other hand, the more scrutiny they are under makes it much easier to expose their practices.

  139. Ron,

    Practices which regularly lead to child endangerment, as evidenced by the high numbers of accidental child deaths in Colorado City, Arizona and necessitate whole cemeteries full of dead babies.

    Yes, Ron, I understand it is confrontational. I am an activist. That’s what we do, for very good reason.

    I am unwilling to give them a pass, or the benefit of the doubt.

    The code reads “any person”. I am simply claiming my personhood.

    I have a long history of paying my respects to dead people I never knew. I am a Southerner and we’re funny about our dead folk.

    We picnic in cemeteries. We take headstone rubbings and hang them on our walls. We seek cemeteries for reflection on life, and to honor those who have gone before us.

    If the YFZ were complying with Texas law, there would be no need for a confrontation over my right to pay my respects.

  140. “On the other hand, the more scrutiny they are under makes it much easier to expose their practices.”

    If they let boots onto the grounds, she can only go to wherever the cemetary is and then back out. There is no chance she will be able to witness or “expose their practices”, whatever that means.

    I would have to think that any semi-impartial judge reading the comments on this thread would also conclude that Boots is not visiting ““only for purposes usually associated with cemetery visits”.

  141. Reading these comments you would have to conclude that Boots is visiting for purposes usually associated with cemetary visits, she has stated over and over that she wants to pay her respects to Allen Rohbock. If the FLDS try to make it something other than that then so be it, or they can do what the law requires and simply let her pay her respects. Oh thats right the FLDS have a BIG problem doing what the law requires.

  142. Duane,

    I’ve already talked to a judge. He said i had the right to access the cemetery and invited me, once I am turned away, to come back to his office to file my official complaint.

    A judge’s job, Duane, is to uphold the law.

    The law states “Any person who wishes to visit a cemetery or private burial grounds”

    “purposes usually associated with cemetery visits”, includes the paying of respects.

    How exactly are you intending to prove that my visit to their cemetery is NOT to pay my respects to Allen?

    I fully expect there to be the added benefit of also showing the public, how once again, the FLDS believes they are too special to have to obey the laws of Texas.

    By the way, when Blacks showed up to “Whites Only” lunch counters asking to be served, do you think they were enjoying the added benefits of showing the unconstitutional discrimination practiced by whate Southerners? Or do you think their primary purpose was to “get a sandwich”?

    How could they prove to you their motives were only to get a sandwich, Duane?

  143. duane: Why should it lead to a judge having a hearing or trial? If there is a confrontation, blame the flds rather than Boots.
    Can’t your flds heros allow a non flds person to live in the same town? to visit a cemetery per the laws of Texas.
    The good thing is that if the flds make a big deal about it and violate Boot’s rights to visit the cemetery it could lead to lawsuits filed by Boots against the flds. More and More money going to gentile attorneys. Gotta love it.

  144. “when Blacks showed up to “Whites Only” lunch counters asking to be served”

    That was a public accomodation not private property. I’m not even sure it is defined as a “cemetary”. If my wife or family member died and buried them on my property, I seriously doubt total strangers would be allowed to use that as a pretext to come on to my property.

    But who knows Boots, maybe they will let you on their property, if you bring a news crew, perhaps it would be an opportunity for them to speak again to the media. They even may invite you to have lunch with them, much like the Oprah visit, let you try on their prairie dresses, teach you how to braid hair, heck even give you a shovel and allow you free access so you can look for dead bodies. Personally, I would love to see that.

  145. “Can’t your flds heros allow a non flds person to live in the same town?”

    They can live in the same town, the objection is UEP property.

  146. “That was a public accomodation ”

    LMAO…you still don’t GET IT!

    Cemeteries in Texas ARE a public accomadation! That’s the law.

    I would suggest if you want your private property to remain 100% private that you not put a cemetery on it, because I can guarantee you, Duane, if you ever start burying people on your property I will come visit you;)

  147. UEP property is not a religious holding, it is a trust holding. The trust has no religion, Duane.

  148. It goes far beyond UEP property. The flds want to control access to publicly funded libraries and parks. They also don’t want to serve non flds in their businesses. Their UEP proposal had the flds Bishop dictating what the public library could show in their windows.
    The reason they don’t want non flds around is that their girls might see a different role model than being married at age 14 as the sixth wife to some 56 year old man. Get with the facts deci.

  149. Y’know, Duane, they could claim to be exempted under the “family cemetery exemption”, however that would sort of shoot themselves in the foot for any future law enforcement rescue efforts, since their argument that the ranch was NOT a “single family residence” but rather a community made up of unique and individual families.

    I think even you called it a private subdivision once.

    There’s that, and the fact that all three people in the cemetery have different last names. Hmmm….

  150. Maybe each family has their own private cemtetary.
    Seriously Boots, go for it, like I said they may let you on the property and give a speech to the media proclaiming you an honorary FLDS member. Also, while you are there, try on a prairie dress, let them fix your hair in braids and let us know how comfortable FLDS attire is to wear.

  151. I think Boots should go to the cemetery already dressed in FLDS magic undies & Prairie gear…then she should claim to be one of Warren’s 80 wives. How would anyone know for sure? LOL

  152. LOL, TexasMom! I’m afraid the minute I opened my mouth they would know something was terribly wrong, and definitely not “sweet”::snort!::

  153. Maybe Boots may decide to stay at YFZ and tell Flora to take a hike, we all know how skilled they are in “brainwashing” people.

  154. BTW, Duane, nobody can braid my hair because I am bald, and wear a wig…a little parting gift from the abuse dished out by my KKK loving birth father.

    But you keep entertaining yourself with the notion that I’m a racist bigot if you like. Everybody needs a fantasy life.

  155. Boots, I’m sorry you had a racist bigot father who did that to you.
    I never said you were racist bigot either, that isn’t the only type of bigot out there.

  156. With the venomous spew that has come from your own writing, I don’t believe you.

    “…that isn’t the only type of bigot out there”.

    I’m not any sort of bigot, Duane.

    I’m just a Texan who wants our laws enforced and children protected from criminals participating in a cultural practice recognized as abusive, worldwide.

  157. Boots, I don’t consider a man cohabbing with mutliple women and bearing children with them, whether you call it polygamy, polyamory, babie mamas, pliggin’, lifestylin’, etc.to be a crime…don’t see the criminal act.
    Before the raid, I assumed that polygamist were never prosecuted anymore for bigamy since it seemed to be archaic since homosexuality, sodomy, and all types of alt lifestyle arrangements are legal and tolerated.

    What you guys hate is religiously motivated polygamy, secular pliggin’ is ok. So it logically entails the anti-polygamy movement is actually an anti “religious” polygamy movement and anti fundie mormon for the most part. Basically it is an anti-religious movement. While I am agnostic, last I checked we still have freedom of religion in this country. Prosecuting an act that would be essentially legal if not for it’s religious motive, blatently violates the first amendment.

  158. :::YAWN:::

  159. “What you guys hate is religiously motivated polygamy, secular pliggin’ is ok.”

    It seems like I’m the one who makes a distinction about the “religiously mandated polygyny” part. I haven’t seen that from Boots. She seems to feel that a crime is a crime is a crime.

    “So it logically entails the anti-polygamy movement is actually an anti “religious” polygamy movement and anti fundie mormon for the most part.”

    I don’t like Mormanism OR Fundamental Mormonism, but I am not “anti fundie mormonism”. I just think that the laws protecting women and children from coercive practices should be enforced. I don’t care what religion, organization, or group it is that claims that they should be allowed to marry off children too young to enter into contracts or abandon their sons to the streets for “rebellion”. I don’t like it that the Mormons start children making “eternal” contracts at the age of 8 and call them “mature” enough to do so. It’s wrong and coercive. If you truly believed in freedom then you’d believe in the freedom of children to grow up before making such choices. But you don’t really seem to believe in a person’s right (or freedom) to grow up, have honest options and choices, and make honestly free-will choices. And you have the nerve to call it hatred and bigotry that others do. I also notice you didn’t bother to actually expand on your claim of my “disgusting-ness”.

  160. It’s great to see that the Canadian public seems less, rather than more, supportive of Winston Blackmore as his trial edges nearer:

    http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Helping+Bountiful+kids+best+show+resolve/1766826/story.html

  161. Being the nice guy that I am, here’s a suggestion Boots. We know many are at YFZ and some in San Antonio and Kerrville, find out where they live, then follow them wherever they go, if they run a stop sign, go over the speed limit, turn sig violation…make not of it and catch it on tape then call the police to report the traffice violations, if they go to a restaurant or visit Sea World, follow them in, if their kids happen to stick some chewing gum under the table, report it to the manager. If they get on a roller coaster while at Sea world, sit behind them in hopes that a pen, mint wrapper or some other personal effect flies out and hits you, then you can report that to a park official and get them in trouble. This should be enough to keep you busy and since according to “FLDS Texas”, they are all-every single one them, “criminals of the highest order”, you can feel good about it. While you are at it, do the same to known members of the Mexican Mafia and Mexican Narco trafficker gangs, follow them around and harass them as well. I would fully support you in that endeavour but will remain safely anonymous since I’m not as brave as you.

  162. Duh duane what you interpret ‘Freedom of Religion’ is not what the Supreme Court and legal case precedents have established. Your meaning is some broadened and amorphous meaning that has to do with ‘no government oversight’ which has never been it’s meaning? Just your own minority view of this civil right but not the majority nor Supreme Court opinion. Then you lambast anybody who dares not to agree and put your baseless and unfounded meaning of religious freedom. Nobody has ever been granted the right to commit a felony and hide behind the protection of religious freedom, not one, no one has such a right and the ‘Bill of Rights’ are not limitless and never have been. You are completely wrong on your beliefs and assertions and talking based upon your own misguided beliefs. You do a great job at discussing a right that doesn’t exist, which is that their is no felony committed in bigamy, wrong again duane. You don’t have the political will or votes to change your lost interpretation either.

    Let’s take the right of polygamy. which has never been legally sanctioned, and proclaim it as a religious freedom. That would be your vote along with a few thousand more adherents against literally millions of contrary voters. Give it up duane, this isn’t a lost cause because it has never been endorsed legally in the first place.

  163. duane, the mexican mafia and Mexicar narco are being followed around by FBI, Border Patrol agents and ATF….

  164. deputydawg, since activists are civilians and thus not subject to the same restrictions as LE with regard to civil rights, they could be more irritating to them.

  165. Cajim, polygamy is a crime on par with adultery and fornication. What about victims of “adultery”, don’t you care about them? I would bet that particular “crime” is far more traumatizing to the “victim” whether male or female, then polygamy.

  166. Duh duane my vote is ‘NO’ to any Constitutional Amendment State or Federal concerning legalization of Bigamy/Polygyny. We simply need to get monogamy working better first and no distractions while we focus on this chosen form of marriage. Personally, I think we have our challenge cut out for us to ‘form a more perfect union’ out of monogamy before any other form of legalized marriage would benefit our American Society as a whole. You know, set our priorities and keep ‘First Things, First’. Polygamy has no rightful place in a modern society and lacks popular acceptance.

  167. Duane, comparing a religious practice which has 14 and 15 year old girls being impregnated by old men in positions of authority over them to running a stop sign or sticking chewing gum under a bleacher seat is really, really lame. I can’t believe you’d even think there was any comparison.

  168. Article 3 of the Utah Constitution

    [Religious toleration. Polygamy forbidden.] First:–Perfect toleration of religious sentiment is guaranteed. No inhabitant of this State shall ever be molested in person or property on account of his or her mode of religious worship; but polygamous or plural marriages are forever prohibited.

  169. duane the victims of adultery have legal recourse, it is called divorce and taking the adulterer to the cleaners. I don’t know what kind of degenerates you hang out with but NO one that I know finds adultery “acceptable” or “common place”. The victims of polygamy do not have the same legal recourse.

    If a victim of adultery does not divorce and financially devastate the adulterer then that victim is also an idiot.

  170. Rebeckah, duane comparing the rape and impregnation of girls to running a stop sign or sticking chewing gum under a bleacher seat, is a prime example of what duane and the men of the FLDS think of females. They get more upset about the gum under the bleachers than the rape of little girls.

  171. Duane wrote: “Polygamy is a crime on par with adultery and fornication.”

    Not hardly, which is why polygamy is a felony. Fornication was a crime in only sixteen states and most of them eliminated it long before the Lawrence v. Texas decision.

    Polygamy remains illegal because it is in its nature corrosive to social stability. I repeat my challenge:

    Name one successful society which was built on polygamy. (A successful society being one which provides stability, safety, economic opportunity, sovereignty, and cultural identity to all its citizens.)

  172. “don’t know what kind of degenerates you hang out with but NO one that I know finds adultery “acceptable” or “common place”

    There you go with the trash talk. I find adultery to be totally unacceptable, that doesn’t mean we should make it a crime. There are some things that the state shouldn’t be sticking its’ nose in.

    Rebeckah, Polygamy is defined as having multiple spouses, not sex with 14 year olds.

    Later

  173. Not being Canadian, I can’t begin to predict what the delightfully-named Madam Justice Sunni Stromberg-Stein will rule on the procedural challenge raised by Messrs Blackmore and Oler. But pundits all over Canada have looked more closely at Blackmore’s version of Big Love and decided that he ought to have been charged with sexual exploitation of children.

    So far, their initial inspection of Winston World has revealed tax fraud, child sexual abuse and welfare fraud. If they’d also look at the labor abuses in his logging camps, they’d have a pretty fair picture of how polygamy actually functions in the real world.

  174. There you go with the trash talk. I find adultery to be totally unacceptable, that doesn’t mean we should make it a crime. There are some things that the state shouldn’t be sticking its’ nose in.
    ========================================================
    Actually Duane in most states adultery is a crime but Law enforcement and courts in general ignore it.
    =================================================
    duane the victims of adultery have legal recourse, it is called divorce and taking the adulterer to the cleaners.
    ===================================================
    Most judges tend to yawn and think “So your spouse found someone better.” What made the wife of Donald Trump different is she signed a prenuptial agreement which became void after Donald Trump slept around on her.

  175. As i read that, Duane, it means paying your respects. I definitely intend to pay my respects to little Allen, 3, killed when the driver of a minivan crashed. Allen and another young boy were both being driven around with no safety belts or child restraints.
    ======================================================
    I encourage you to visit them and let us know how it goes. It seems that the law has exceptions when the cemetary is on private property owned by a church. I’m curious to know how those exceptions apply so if you are refused you can fill us on which steps you needed to take to either visit the cemetary or find out that you are unable to visit through those exceptions that to a laymen such as myself is confusing.

  176. “Rebeckah, Polygamy is defined as having multiple spouses, not sex with 14 year olds.”

    Duane, you specifically suggested to Boots that she follow around the FLDS members looking for crimes such as running stop signs and sticking chewing gum under seats. The “form” of polygyny that the FLDS follow is in no way comperable to the petty offenses you list. There is crystal clear evidence that marrying and impregnating young teens was very much a part of this church’s practices AND that it was becoming a greater part. Every one of those young teens that were married and impregnated were victimized. Whether they are able to understand why that is so or not it doesn’t change the fact that they were, indeed, victimized. I don’t feel the need to “save” the adult women who enter into polygamy for whatever reason. However the youngsters who have been coerced into it need saving. The “theocracy” of Short Creek needs shattering. Isolation protects the abusers in this community. It is not religious bigotry or “hatred” to point these things out.

    Later.

  177. When I was 14, my mother’s best friend found her husband in HER bed in another woman. The woman raced out of the house, and the wife went into the kitchen, got a butcher knife and cut the man’s penis off, then called the ambulance. He lived. The wife was NOT prosecuted because at the time, adultry was against the law.
    Guess what? The couple stayed married. The woman didn’t ask for a divorce, because her husband could NEVER screw around on her again….

  178. Alinusara YFZ ranch isn’t owned by any church. It’s owned by a corporation.

  179. As of December, John C Wayman holds the note on the ranch.

  180. FLDS Texas,
    again, in case you missed it 🙂
    I would like to send you my masterpiece for my visit to D.C. do you have a direct email?
    HHG

  181. Alinusara YFZ ranch isn’t owned by any church. It’s owned by a corporation.
    ==========================================================
    I thought it was owned by a trust. I’m still hoping Boots visit it. I’m curious to see how the law applies.

  182. DD1—why would she want to keep him? What use was he?

  183. The Texas Trust has NOT been confirmed by the state yet.

  184. Until it is, its still YFZ Land LLC

  185. Greetings, truthfully, I was only 14, but I figured later, it was because she loved him, and since he could no longer have sex, she could still have the income she was accustomed to.

  186. Alin, we saw a document that created a trust in which to hold the ranch, but no conveyance document for the ranch itself. FLDS Texas said it was transferred, so it probably was. But even if so, is the Texas Heritage Trust a church under Texas law? (How many verilys are required to make a church, anyway?) And if the trust was created in Utah, how does that affect property in Texas?

    (I have no idea about the answers to any of these questions.)

  187. Thanks for the explanation about the trust, DD1.

  188. Thanks Gfny for your candor. I have no idea myself how it works out myself on what legally constitutes a church. There is a lot of murky grey area on this subject.

  189. The Texas Trust, if I remember correctly, NEVER uses the word religion or church. I could be wrong, will have to go back and read it again. But I think it just says members of the Texas Trust.

  190. Hellohellogoodbye, you can send email to fldstexas@aol.com. Also if the email you listed when posting is correct, please check it you have an email from one of the administrators.

  191. We built a house in a gated community with 17 other houses. We had a homeowners assoc. We had to pay dues every year. Since it was a gated community, if our street needed repair or needed to be replaced, we, as homeowners were responsible for paying for it, not the city, the county, or the state.
    When we built our house, there were around 8 lots left to be sold, and our street was new. We lived there for 12yrs, and the street needed repairing, fortunately for us, we sold our house. Because each home owner was going to have to put in at least 3,000 dollars each to replace the asphalt.
    Why we moved? Because we felt like we were living in a fish bowl.

  192. Duane,

    You lied again. I have stated way more than once that I am against polygamy regardless of the gender or religion [that means a lack of one, too] of the person practicing it.

    That most societies where polygamy is practiced are, indeed, religious in nature is not a surprise. Without a religious “excuse” it would be very hard to convince anyone to live the “lifestyle”, especially women.

    Ali,

    There is no exception for church property in the codes. The others are right, and the YFZ is a property owned by a business or a trust, neither of which are religious entities anyway.

    The people at the YFZ can argue all day long that the FLDS is a church, but they aren’t legally recognized as such, nor have they ever applied to have it so.

    Nor can they be one, as long as the temple on the property is also in violation of the Texas code for churches, refusing to allow the public to enter.

    Both the owner of the local paper, and the Judge told me they were well aware of the YFZ’s violation of the Texas Health & Safety code on Access to Cemeteries. They were simply waiting to see if anyone ever made an issue of it.

    Now I will.

  193. The Texas Trust, if I remember correctly, NEVER uses the word religion or church. I could be wrong, will have to go back and read it again. But I think it just says members of the Texas Trust.

    deputydog1 said this on July 7, 2009 at 6:22 PM

    Deputydog1 you better read the Declaration of Trust.
    Pages of D&C dication and very few scriptures from the Bible.

  194. Boots where is the Texas code for churches?

    The Mormon Temples in Texas cities restrict who enters their grounds.

    The Budist temples have fences and restrict who enters in.

  195. I was wondering about the Mormon Temples myself, anonymous 7:21. Seems to me that they wouldn’t count as a church under those guidelines either.

  196. anonymous, my point is nowhere in the Texas Trust do they call the place a church. Yes , they use d&c and some scripture, but so did the creators of the constitution when drawing it up in the begining, but the constitution certainly isn’t a church.

  197. I guess all of moromonism is an elitest religion.

  198. I’ve never looked up the codes for churches, since I could care less if I go into one or not.

    I guess someone more concerned with visiting churches could check into it.

    I’m only interested in paying my respects to Allen at the cemetery.

  199. deputydog1,

    From what I understand, in order to get into the Mormon Temple one needs something called a “Recommend” from their Bishop.

    When Flora went to the temple in Salt Lake City, seeking a meeting with the mainstream LDS’s Director of Polygamy, they asked her for her “recommend”.

    I suppose religions are allowed to sift their membership for special favors, like an audience with the pope, etc. That doesn’t really bother me.

  200. anonymous, my point is nowhere in the Texas Trust do they call the place a church. Yes , they use d&c and some scripture, but so did the creators of the constitution when drawing it up in the begining, but the constitution certainly isn’t a church.

    deputydog1 said this on July 7, 2009 at 7:34 PM

    Texan Heritage is to assist the living of the Holy United Order. It exists to preserve and advance the religious doctrines and goals of the United Order of Texas, a common law trust (hereinafter referred to as the “Church”), having its principal office in Eldorado, Texas.

  201. Anon 8:28,

    Well, then I guess between the new trust and the “lifestyle choice” of the residents, little Eldorado, Texas can see what they have to look forward to in the next 50 years if the crimes of the people living on the YFZ are ignored, like they are in Utah and Arizona.

    Perhaps the fields of dead children and high unemployment rates will make it an especially attractive vacation destination.A real Heaven on earth!

    For everyone else…I’m surprised nobody caught that the mainstream LDS church indeed has an active “Director of Polygamy”.

    Although I am unsure what his duties are, since “Polygamy has nothing whatsoever to do with the LDS Church”. I guess he just sits around waiting for….?

  202. You’re right, Boots, it is a bit odd for a church which disavows polygamy to have an active Director of Polygamy. Unless he’s sniffing out and excommunicating the LDS caught practicing it (and of course documenting them so they can posthumously baptize them back into the church) and working the PR machine to make sure the rest of us believe the LDS have nothing to do with polygamy. I guess Bruce in Montana hasn’t reported himself to them yet.

  203. Well, Ive never been into buddhism, or wiccan, or Mormon establishments. But, Ive walked in methodist, presybeterian, esispcopalin, catholic , baptist churches at one time or another, and have NEVER been told I couldn’t enter. I have even been to a Jewish temple, and wasn’t turned away.

  204. Rebeckah,

    If it has absolutely “nothing whatsoever to do with the LDS Church” as they claim, what exactly IS the position for?

    I certainly know it isn’t to assist the victims of polygamy, since they are repeatedly told to “Go home and be a good wife”.

    Hey! Maybe that’s what his job is?

    Or maybe he decides who is sealed to who after death, which is funny if you ask me, because the whole faith is built on the fact that your family gets to stay together for eternity…

    So are they sealing other men’s wives to other more “worthy” dead Mormons after death? Or are they too busy baptizing dead Jews from the Holocaust and assigning those women to be their dead guy’s extra celestial wives?

    Who knows?

  205. Of course at the Jewish Temple, my husband didn’t put on a yamica on his head out of respect.

  206. My husband DID* put on a yamica

  207. I also believe the only “temple” is inside each person where God dwells, not mortar, concrete, or steel.

  208. Yes, DD, most religions are very welcoming of visitors. I too have visited many churches in the past. Most are very open and don’t act like there is anything to “hide”.

  209. YFZ?

    Dismissed.

  210. I mean really, half the adult males are up for felonies, the prehearings begin within a month, but they want Texas, TEXAS, to take that babble on as some relgion? Many Texans were born at night, but not last night.

  211. UncleThread,

    I can go along with respecting their faith. I don’t have any problem with looking or being different from anyone else.

    My problem is that they use their faith as an excuse to break laws. Nobody has a right to break laws with impunity, for any reason, especially here in Texas.

  212. Oh brother.

    LadieSadie,

    I want you to know I’d be proud to have you as my child’s teacher.

    I kept my daughter in private schools for years, because we moved so much, and believe me it was a trade off. I had to tolerate all sorts of things that were out of line with my “value system” in order to get her a decent education.

    There are not a lot of private Jewish schools in the rural South. So at one point I had her enrolled in a private Southern Baptist Academy. When my daughter came home complaining that they made her sing Jesus Loves me, I told her, “You’re getting a decent education, honey. SING ALONG”!

    When they fired the school’s music teacher of 15 years, for playing two bars of “Great Balls of Fire” on the sanctuary piano [we’re still not sure what overcame him], I had to explain to her that they had the right to do that. We didn’t have to agree but they had the right.

    LadieSadie is, I’m betting, a great educator. At least I know she understands the constitution, free speach, and women’s rights to equality.

    By the way, some of the foulest language I’ve ever heard came out of the mouth of a prarie skirt wearing FLDS woman I saw on TV defending her prophet, Warren Jeffs. She was bleeped out a lot, but you could still get the gist.

  213. LadySadie…ROFLMAO!!!! Many ::snorts:: too.

    April Day: Speechless.

  214. Alin, we saw a document that created a trust in which to hold the ranch, but no conveyance document for the ranch itself. FLDS Texas said it was transferred, so it probably was. But even if so, is the Texas Heritage Trust a church under Texas law? (How many verilys are required to make a church, anyway?) And if the trust was created in Utah, how does that affect property in Texas?
    (I have no idea about the answers to any of these questions.)
    Greetings from New York said this on July 7, 2009 at 6:12 PM (edit)

    ——————–

    There are conveyance documents that purport to transfer the ranch property, but it was not transferred properly. There is a conveyance from YFZ Land LLC to Jim Jessop as Trustee of the Texas Heritage Trust … only problem is, when the conveyance was made, the Texas Heritage Trust was not in existence, and Jim Jessop could not take title in the representative capacity of trustee (of a trust that did not exist).

    Within the trust document itself, there is also conveyance language to the effect that the initial trustees are transferring the same ranch property into the trust — the problem there is the initial trustees didn’t own the property and cannot convey it. If you look at the chain of title on the ranch property, it was owned by YFZ Land LLC, and there has never been a proper conveyance after that point. The ranch property is still owned by YFZ Land LLC … but remember the land also secures a $900,000 note and deed of trust on the loan made by John Wayman shortly before the Texas Heritage Trust was created. Under the terms of the deed of trust, transferring the property to the Texas Heritage Trust would be an event of default on the security instruments. Do you think Wayman will call the note and accelerate payment — or do you think he will foreclose to protect his security interest? Heck no, because it was a sham transaction.

    If I get around to it, I will post all these documents and do a little more thorough explanation of how it is all tied together and what I believe to be the state of title on the ranch property.

  215. Thanks, FLDS Texas. Did they hire lawyers to make that mess or was it a D-I-Y project?

  216. HAHAH ron! I Love Monty Python!!!

  217. Greetings – I think it was a do-it-yourself-er

  218. Carry on …

  219. That’s okay Anonymous 12:26 Im not interested in wiccan, just used it as an example.

  220. LadySadie said this on July 8, 2009 at 11:17 AM
    And now our educational lessons are over for the day since I am sure we are all enriched by having learned so much about the word “fart”.

    REPLY: It’s a simple enough concept, and also quite cosmic, and divine! It is kin to the word “Part”, to part with something, see. How is that crude in any way, unless you are stuck in the mud of it all. Then, the mud is yours alone, not ours.

    Cosmic? Divine? Surely. Christ says He will spew the disobedient out of Him, and it is certainly divine to cleanse oneself. The only offence is in the corruption of the minds being offended, not being able or willing to see the broader concept.

  221. Nature is bursting forth on every side.

    I know, isn’t it wonderful!! Remember Street ca ca happens.

  222. Yeah, think about it. In ancient Israel there was no refrigeration so the food probably always had pretty high bacterial counts. Not to mention all the stuff in the water.

    Yeah, I’ll bet Jesus could cut some whoppers.

  223. In ancient times, they ate very little meat. They ate, fish and veggies.
    Curious, your anger is apparent. None of us know why you were kicked out, but whether you know it or not, it was the best thing that ever happened to you.
    Freedom of thought, or questioning doctrine is one of those inalienable rights God gave us, along with the constitution.
    No one is responsible for your actions or thoughts but YOU!
    Im sorry you were raised to believe you didn’t have these freedoms. Im sorry you defend so profusely a doctrine which was madeup by a man, human, flesh and blood just like you.
    Im sorry you whip yourself up into such a frenzy trying to make others believe what you know is false. Your allowing a “book” to decieve you, torment you.
    I seriously hope you get some help.

  224. A question I had in 2004 for a 100 year old woman:
    “Miss Eddie, do you remember when women got the right to vote?”

    A question your great, great grandaughter might ask you:
    “Grammy, do you remember when men only had one wife and women were free to do anything they wanted?”

    “Texas has yet to learn submission to any oppression, come from what source it may.”
    ~Governor Sam Houston

  225. Boots,congratulations! You made the front page of the Success!

  226. LOL! Thanks Miel,

    Well, then I suppose the news is officially out that I will arrive at the YFZ to exercise my rights to pay my respects to Allen, Friday morning: G-d willin’ and if’n the creeks don’t rise.

    Of course, when it played on 14 radio stations across the state yesterday it was already out, too;)

  227. Boots, you know they aren’t going to let you in the ranch. They will have some excuse to keep you off.

  228. Palin hatred is almost as scary as Polyg hatred.
    http://neoneocon.com/2009/07/06/more-on-palin-hate-continuedand-continued/

    Good quote from a liberal feminist that was pulled by the above blogger.

    These people don’t hate Palin because of the lies; the lies exist to justify the hate

    I suppose if we feared less we would hate less.

  229. I can’t wait for the Friday news! Good luck Boots! Do ya think Willie will be there to greet you at the gate? [For someone who doesn’t speak for the FLDS, according to Willie himself, it’ll be entertaining to hear his take on this.]

  230. duane—Palin brought most of this upon herself…geeeee, as did the FLDS.

  231. Right Duane, those FLDS’ and Dems’ blatant hatred is the damndest thing I’ve ever seen. No wonder Kim, Hugo, Obama and that pipsqueak Ahmadinejad think they can get away with such foul lowlife behavior.

  232. duane—Palin brought most of this upon herself…geeeee, as did the FLDS

    For the record, I didn’t vote for Palin, there is a difference between disagreeing with someone’s politics and spreading lies

  233. The Mormon polygamists are the only ones brave enough to stand up to the Mexican Narcos

    Mexico reacted to the slaying of an anti-crime activist with outrage Wednesday: Congress called for a minute of silence, television commentators demanded justice and activists pledged to step up their fight against crime despite persistent threats.

    Public-safety groups say Benjamin LeBaron was the first anti-crime activist in Mexico to have been murdered in retaliation for his work.
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gvQo4ayASQe6IFl1SXNx-MwsqI0gD99AKOFO0

    This took far more courage and bravery than anything Kdee and Flora have done.
    These guys are heroes in Mexico, of all people it was Fundie Mormon polygamists who had the cajones to fight back against the heavily armed Mexican drug cartels.

  234. Sarah Palin went to Iraq last a week or so ago. I happen to believe it helped her make a decision that she felt taxpayer money was being spent in a way that has been putting our american troops in harms way. I happen to respect the woman. I also think she is extremely bright. Perhaps after being in Iraq she got her priorities in order and decided to put her family first, rather that dog eat dog politics.

  235. What goes on in Mexico is up to Mexico to fix duane. It’s horrible when people are murdered anywhere. LeBarons committed many murders themselves, and there is still ONE Lebaron on the FBI most wanted list.
    There is a saying, your reap , what you sow.

  236. DD1, I guess my question is, what did this person “sow” to reap the consequence of death? My guess, he didn’t reap anything. This was just terrible violence committed by evil people.

  237. Rebeckah, I was speakin in general. LeBaron’s fled to Mexico years ago, to continue practicing illegal behaviours, fraud etc.
    They built their compound, and then until recently, were still involved in illegal activities. I agree no one should have the right to murder another person.

  238. Which is worse, vulgarity or slander? As a good Protestant, I go back to the earliest days of the Reformation and one of mankind’s greats, Martin Luther, for the answer:

    “A slanderer does nothing but ruminate the filth of others with his own teeth and wallow like a pig with his nose in the dirt. That is also why his droppings stink most, surpassed only by the Devil’s. . . . And though man drops his excrements in private, the slanderer does not respect this privacy. He gluts on the pleasure of wallowing in it, and he does not deserve better according to God’s righteous judgment. When the slanderer whispers: Look how he has shit on himself, the best answer is: You go eat it….”

    (Martin Luther to the Augustinian Observants in Gotha, May 1, 1515)

  239. So as not to single out any particular offender – all posts that focused on a poster rather than the relevant content of a post have been deleted. (Sorry Rebeckah — I know you wanted a warning before posts got deleted, but you got caught up in the mix. )

    Please drop the subject, and discontinue discussing each other. Thank you.

  240. Here is a book everyone should read:

    Fart Proudly: Writings of Benjamin Franklin
    by Benjamin Franklin
    ISBN13: 9780898048018
    ISBN10: 089804801x

    Fart Proudly is a testament to the rogue that lived inside the philosopher and statesman. It includes essays such as “A Letter to the Royal Academy,” and “The Supreme Court of the Press”.

  241. I was recently in Copenhagen and the bus delivering tourists had the company name proudly displayed on its side….TOURISTFART. It’s one of my favorite pictures!

  242. deputydog,

    No, I don’t expect to “… have the right to reasonable ingress and egress for the purpose of visiting the cemetery or private burial grounds”, when I ask for it.

    I fully expect them to deny my personhood.

    After all, according to this Texas law this right is granted to “Any person who wishes to visit a cemetery or private burial grounds”.

    Considering my experience with the FLDS over the last 5 years, I do not expect my “personhood” to be acknowledged by them.

    My only question once I am refused, is will the local prosecutor be more respectful of my personhood?

    We shall see, won’t we?

    Leaving the gate shut might be a simple misdemeanor, for all I know. It might be the equivalent of a $25 parking ticket every day, which I’m sure they would be more than happy to pay to keep all persons judged not of good enough personhood out.

    I may not know what the penalties for breaking it are, but I do know what my rights are, as a PERSON according to the law of Texas.

  243. Is it too much to ask that we all leave the potty talk at the door ..which reminds me of a really funny Dane Cook bit ..nah…..

  244. Admin,
    No worries. I wasn’t looking for “advance notice” just an explanation (if it happened) so I could be sure I understood what rule I broke and try not to break it again. You explained it quite well, however. Thank you. 😉

  245. Grammartically speaking the word fart is not “potty talk”. Its use is accepted in all types of fine literature circles. It has been used by statesmen and dignitaries and is one of the oldest words in the english language.

  246. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/wives-to-be-named-on-leases/article1211606/

    Wisan has an interview about adding women’s names to leases in the Canada branch

  247. I agree with that proposal hellohellogoodbye!

  248. A little trivia…..when women put their makeup on it is called farding.

  249. Guess I haven’t farded yet today.

  250. In the trib news today, there is a story about a teacher’s aid who sexually assaulted a JR high boy and bought cigerettes for other boys..
    She was charged with a 3rd degree felony assault. And the judge gave her 60days in jail, and 36 month probataion and she doesn’t have to regiseter as a sex offender. This is what the judge said:
    Judge Lynn Davis said the sentence was lenient and that a man guilty of similar crimes would have been given time in prison.

    My question is why was SHE treated differently

  251. By the way texasrattle I like your picture of the ladybug

  252. Thanks 🙂 I thought it might be less intimidating than a snake 🙂

  253. ROFL!!! 🙂

  254. DD, I did some reading on gender bias in sentencing and this was a sadly predictable bit of sexual discrimination (against men).

    There are two biases at play here. Sex crimes against females earn substantially longer sentences than crimes against males (and your goofy jokes illustrate why). And men who assault females received the longest sentences of any possible gender combination.

    But this is true for all crimes, not just sex crimes, and the gap is actually widening, not getting smaller. Sentence lengths for men are typically 25 to 30 percent longer for all types of crimes.

    (From “Fifteen Years of Guidelines Sentencing; Chapter Four: Racial, Ethnic, and Gender Disparities in Federal Sentencing Today,” http://www.ussc.gov/15_year/chap4.pdf)

  255. You tell it, Marci:

    “In recent years, only Texas has indicted more than one religious polygamist at a time, and states where their population is large, like Arizona and Utah, give a pass to religious polygamists all the time. The (typically male) prosecutors weigh the interests of the men in their “religious” practices far more heavily than the interests of the girls who are repeatedly subjected to statutory rape and the women who are trapped in an aggressively coercive patriarchal universe. (They also value their own political careers more dearly than protecting the women and girls trapped in the FLDS system.)”

    And this:

    “The prosecutors who decline to proceed in both prostitution and polygamy cases also paper over the core constitutional and social evil in both prostitution and polygamy – the fundamental lack of equality between the genders. In prostitution, the woman is nothing more than an item to be bought and sold. The man controls both the financial transaction and the choice of physical act. His ‘manliness’ is reinforced while her humanity is reduced to being a source of personless pleasure.

    “In polygamy, also not a victimless crime, the practice is built on the subjugation of women to the men’s needs and demands. Moreover, for many of the religious polygamists, the women are nothing but the means to a particular doctrinal end – creating more children to increase the man’s odds of getting into heaven. Again, the men control the finances and the women are commodities, carrying out the sexual goals of the men. There can be no gender equality in this scenario, which is incapable of being squared with any viable theory of women’s rights.”

    (“The Two P’s of Gender Inequality: Prostitution and Polygamy – How the Laws Against Both Are Underenforced to Protect Men and Subjugate Women,” by Marci A. Hamilton, 7/9/09, http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hamilton/20090709.html)

  256. http://166.70.44.68/blogs/plurallife/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/2009-06-30-Wyler-letter-to-Lindberg4.pdf

    This is the document from “interested parties” about the UEPtrust, all are xflds. and their proposal makes more sense that any of the others.

  257. A less sophisticated document than those prepared by lawyers, but undeniably true in every point, which makes all the difference. It also raises issues I never thought of, like how repugnant it would be to have the advisory board comprised of men who stole your wife and kids, or how many lots there actually are in that cemetery.

  258. Another factor the judge should consider—the authors of this response actually live and work in the community, unlike Wee Willie Winkie and his loutish lawyers, who just want to get their sticky fingers on the trust assets.

  259. The Wyler letter is very practical. It acknowledges the many complexities of the situation. One of the things that struck me is the need for both Mohave County and Washington County to step up in this situation. With the Short Creek city governments being still under the control of Jeffs, the only solution to this very complex situation will be for the county governments to step into the breech and try to act as a buffer.

    The whole situation with the UEP is enormously complex. The interaction of the FLDS, the UEP, and the various governmental entitles makes this a highly difficult know to unravel.

  260. Kinda reminds me of the “hatfields and the mccoys”

  261. Text of Wyler letter available here:

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2009/07/09/letter-to-judge-lindberg-from-isaac-wyler-and-others/

  262. Thanks Flds Texas 🙂

  263. Ron, the city is not under the control of Jeffs, it is under the control of officials who were duly elected by a majority vote. That they happen to members of the FLDS faith is irrelevant as religious belief is not a factor in determining whether someone is fit to hold office. They should put the UEP issue to a popular vote, do it the democratic way, Democracy is what this country was founded on.

  264. Duane, the UEP is under the court’s control, not the electorate’s. That is a closed question.

    And our judicial system is every bit as valid as our voting system–it provides a check against the other two branches of government, remember?

    Did you read Wyler’s letter? Well worth the time, and comprehensible to the meanest intelligence.

  265. Ron, I don’t think it’s that complex at all—the trust was formed under state laws that control it explicitly. Wee Willie seeks to muddy the water and Mark Shurtleff seems to be chasing ghosts, but the rules governing the trust are clear.

    Wee Willie ought to have utterly no standing, since he neither lives in Short Creek nor is a Bishop in the FLDS. But he bellows like a bull moose and gets attention, and can afford attorneys who whore themselves on his behalf.

    (I am actually sanguine about this, because “the last will be first, and the first will be last.” The Day of Judgment is at hand and it doesn’t look good for those who take bread from the mouths of widows and children.)

    Meanwhile, Isaac Wyler and his friends draft their own letter to Judge Lindberg because they can’t afford an attorney. However, they actually live in this community and care about it, and theirs is the only petition to the court that is readable, clear, and entertaining.

  266. Yeah, I read wyler’s letter. I do agree on the cemetary plots and the park should be public if it falls under the auspices of city govt. ut then he goes on about religious segregration and then says “The city should be required to fill key appointed positions with non-flds individuals to soften the FLDs monopoly on the city governments and agencies”. Whoa, since religion doesn’t matter then why this talk of a “monopoly”, what if the town was majority black then would it be ok to “fill key appointed positions with white individuals”?? Remember, discrimination by religion holds as much weight as racial discrimination.

    Since it is 85% FLDS, majority should rule and if nonflds don’t like it, then leave. HA! What if all the FLDS packed up and left, do you think xflds would stay? Of course not, they need those folks whose faith happens to be Fundie Mormon.

  267. Those lebarons who were murdered in Mexico for standing up to the Mexican Narcos, while many anti-flds are happy they are dead since that means less plygs and that they deserved do die since all fundie Mormons are “child rapists”…basically pure hatred by many bigoted Americans. In Mexico they are heroes as they are the first group to stand up to the narcos. This was a typical comment on “El Universal” in spanish that I translated.

    “It is a pity that people with valuable ideals of justice for all so tragic end to this and leaving their families living in pain. Government of Chihuahua, demonstrates that at least get back the vote that gave even more naive to the PRI. Mexicans demand that shed light on this crime and that these murderers with no soul (because it gave the devil) rot in jail. My sincere condolences to the family of Benjamin Le Baron. All pray for his death not be in vain.”

    But here in the “tolerant” US, many are jumping for joy seeing these guys murdered in cold blood for no other reason than that they are Fundie Mormons.

  268. duane you have been told many times on all the other boards that you post on, “anti-flds” are not “happy” that the 2 in mexico were murdered. you are spreading lies from board to board, you seem to be the only one “jumping” for joy over the tragic murders of those 2 men as it gives you such pleasure to spread lies all across the internet.

  269. “But here in the “tolerant” US, many are jumping for joy seeing these guys murdered in cold blood for no other reason than that they are Fundie Mormons.”

    There you go again, trying to stir up trouble. Why do you do that? Is your life truly so empty that only in trying to stir up people about posters who, on the internet, could very well be someone like you just trying to make those on the other side look bad. And since you aren’t seeing these sentiments which you need so badly to justify your own attacks, you want to export them to more moderate blogs? Once again — if you’ve got an issue with what these people post, take it up with them where they post.

  270. “Ron, the city is not under the control of Jeffs, it is under the control of officials who were duly elected by a majority vote.”

    Somehow I am sure that you are aware that this statement is utterly false. Did you ignore the letter written by one of the government officials (a police officer or police chief or something) saying that he lives to serve Warren Jeffs? That is not an official duly elected by majority vote”, since majority vote or not there is supposed to be a separation of church and state. You can’t have government officials professing, in writing, their devotion to their religious leader and their desire to do everything they are told to do by said religious leader. And before you say it, yes, if a Catholic Police Officer refused to take a rape victim to the hospital for treatement because his religion forbids the “day after pill”, he’d be at a very valid risk for losing his job.

    “That they happen to members of the FLDS faith is irrelevant as religious belief is not a factor in determining whether someone is fit to hold office.”

    You’re right. It’s the part where they break the law, or ignore others breaking the law, or fail to do their sworn duty that determines that they are not fit to hold office. HOW many FLDS Law Enforcement personnel have been found guilty of crimes like marrying underage girls or ignoring violations of the law committed by their religious “homies”.

    “They should put the UEP issue to a popular vote, do it the democratic way, Democracy is what this country was founded on.”

    No, basic human freedoms is what this country was founded on. A democratic republic was the medium that our founding fathers felt would be the best vehicle to drive those basic human freedoms. As for putting the UEP issue up to “popular vote”, that’s the stupidest idea I’ve ever heard. Should we put production of Meth up for popular vote too? How about pedophilia, perhaps that should be up for vote too. The fact is that the UEP was used by a tool by the leadership of the FLDS to allow, encourage and coerce people into breaking the laws of the land. No number of “votes” is going to change the fact that the UEP cannot be used legally in this country the way it was being used.

  271. Can someone please point me to the place where someone is jumping for joy over the murders of anyone (plyg, fundie or otherwise). TIA

  272. duane: You keep ascrbing motives and emotions to people critical of polygamy that come only from your delusions. As FLDS Texas stated above: show me where someone is happy about plygs being murdered. Show me where non flds are throwing rocks at flds in short creek while wearing skimpy clothing. Show me where the people in Mancos and Westcliffe, CO have done anything about the flds other than offer an opinion. That is, exercize their free speech rights.
    You make all this stuff up and then castigate people for your made up nonsense.

  273. deci duane.
    To say the short creek towns are not under the control of Warren Jeffs is false. Those faithful flds office holders jump when warren tells them to jump. The voters vote for whoever Warren and willie tell them to vote for.
    Many of the flds police officers stated that their loyalty was to Jeffs rather than to the laws and their office.

  274. I’m curious about where Duane came up with the data that 85% of the residents of Short Creek are FLDS.

  275. BTW, there are a number of news stories this week about how the current recession is causing an “historic washout of dairy farmers — some say 10 percent, 20 percent or more around the end of the year — that would reduce supply, raise prices and reset the bar.”*

    In light of this, Bruce Wisan’s sale of the Holstein heifers looks pretty darned smart now. And the agreement to sell the Harker Farm to Hyrum and Jonathan Harker probably needs some tweaking, since it may not be possible to run a dairy farm on the terms first agreed.

    *From my favorite ag and market publication, the New York Times, here: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/09/nyregion/09towns.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=dairy&st=cse

  276. Greetings said: “I’m curious about where Duane came up with the data that 85% of the residents of Short Creek are FLDS.”

    duane skinwalker probably just made it up like he makes up a lot of stuff. Scantly clothed apostaes throwing rocks in short creek, ROFL!!

  277. Well I’m glad everyone took the time to smack down Duane some, but I wanted to add my take.

    Elected politicians take oaths to support the Constitution and the laws of the land. If they can’t support those laws because of their faith, they need to quit. If you’re FLDS you follow Jeffs first. We all know how Jeffs feels about our laws. There is a reason he’s in prison and it’s not bigotry or hatred.

  278. Well, a previous comment of mine seems to be awaiting moderation. Perhaps I should not be pointing out a certain fellow poster’s fairy tales about his flds heros. I promise to refrain from…, I promise to refrain from…

  279. Well said Ron. That is why many of the flds police officers in Short Creek were decertified by Utah and Arizona.

  280. Jeffs is in prison, he has been “martyred” and no longer in charged, Boots said that and I heard the same thing as well.
    Whatever your opinion about Jeffs, you can’t take his actions and apply it to everyone else-at least not legally.
    To require that an office holder disown his religious beliefs in order to hold office is illegal in this country.

    I never accused anyone here of gloating over Lebaron’s murder, but many did on other boards, I just thought I’d share that news with you, if you don’t like it then don’t read about it.

    The 85% FLDS/15% XFLDS I believe came from Mark Shirtleff in a previous article.

    The two sides are completely at odds with each other and the differences are irreconcilable.
    It would be like throwing ultra-orthodox zionist Jews and Hamas Muslims together on a small parcel of land and ordering them to form a trust and live side by side….not gonna happen.
    Like I said, if all the FLDS folks packed their bags, closed shop and took their businesses with them and left, the XLFDS would have to do the same thing as the community would be a virtual ghost town and no longer viable. The Xflds need to accept that the local govt. will be dominated by those who follow the flds faith and should take the deal offered by Shirtleff, perhaps with some minor tweaking as to access to parks, cemetaries and public non-uep parcels since it seems those areas should be open to everyone.

  281. Well for those of you who believe that indoctrination is a metaphorical form of beating somebody over the head, here’s a more literal form of indoctrination.

  282. you can’t take his actions and apply it to everyone else-at least not legally

    Yes, you can. Regardless of who you say the “prophet” is, the FLDS follow that person first and the laws of the land second. That’s incompatible with their oaths of office and really should disqualify them from holding office since their religion has as a fundamental ideology an illegal practice.

  283. duane , why do you think so many in the twin cities police dept were decertified???
    Because they took an oath to follow the LAWS of the state of Utah, and instead followed religious law.

  284. And No duane the xflds don’t have to accept anything. They to before being kicked out contributed to the trust. Some of the families help start the trust, so if you go back several generations, then you would see, Rulon and Warren came much later than some of the people whose families have been kicked out.
    That’s why Judge Linderberg was adament about hearing ALL sides!

  285. Mark Byron Allred, 54, 1450 N. Dixie Downs Road No. 77, St. George, was arrested Wednesday on charges of public intoxication and three weapon possession violations. Allred was booked into Purgatory Correctional Facility on $4,485 bail.

  286. “FLDS follow that person first and the laws of the land second”,

    Anti-FLDS sloganeering adds nothing to the legal disputes.

    Again, the FLDS can have polygamy as part of their beliefs just like the LDS, they just can’t practice it. They aren’t practicing polygamy anymore, they don’t use that term among themselves, no lists, perhaps they have sex with more than one woman but of course, such activities are not against the law.
    If you think I’m wrong prove it.
    Many of the previous officers were decertified merely for practicing polygamy, they were replaced by other FLDS-presumably those with one wife. If they decide to support an additional woman in the future-perhaps they will resign their position and give it to another monig flds member…with their past experience…I’m sure they have figured out how to keep from being decertified. Also several decertifications occurred when their prophet was on the run which put the officers in a squeeze…That was a mistake on Jeff’s part…doubt it will happen agian.

  287. I think the basic flaw with Duane’s assertion that these are duly elected officials is that the individuals were elected, but not the Prophet of the hour. Since these people follow the prophet first and their oaths of office second, they are clearly not “duly elected” officials.

    Duane, the issue isn’t religious beliefs the issue is that religious beliefs take a second place to the laws of the land and the oaths of office for “duly elected” officials. When they do not the official has forfited their office and need to be removed and replaced with an individual who will follow the oaths they take. The funny thing, to me, is that these people consider themselves so righteous when they have broken oaths (as a group, not always as individuals) right and left.

  288. “They to before being kicked out contributed to the trust.”

    It is perfectly justifiable that they should be able to seek compensation for what they personally invested, take the money and leave if they don’t want to accept democratic 1 man 1 vote rule in Short Creek.

  289. There was a 13 year long legal battle that established that apostates and expelees had a place at the table, ie were beneficiaries of the UEP. They do not have to fight this battle over. What is needed is a UEP board and procedures that will represent and protect all beneficiaries. I think Judge Lindberg will settle for nothing less.

  290. “They aren’t practicing polygamy anymore, they don’t use that term among themselves, no lists, perhaps they have sex with more than one woman but of course, such activities are not against the law.”

    Really, says who? Prove it.

    “If you think I’m wrong prove it.”

    The person making the claim is the person with a burden of proof. There is ample proof that the FLDS have consistently broken laws, ignored the breaking of laws, and encouraged disrespect for the laws and sovreignty of this nation and zero evidence that this has changed. Expecting people to assume, out of thin air and with absolutely NO corroberating evidence that this has changed is frankly insane.

    “Many of the previous officers were decertified merely for practicing polygamy,”

    Actually many of them were decertified for taking underage brides. A blatant, flagrant violation of our very basic laws against child endangerment. They SHOULD have been decertified — and thrown in jail too.

    “If they decide to support an additional woman in the future-perhaps they will resign their position and give it to another monig flds member”

    And perhaps pigs will fly, the walls to Warren’s prison cell will fall down, and the Tooth Fairy will interview Obama on Dateline.

    “I’m sure they have figured out how to keep from being decertified.”

    I’m equally sure they never even bothered to consider figuring out how to keep from being decertified. After all, when God is on your side then you can do no wrong, right?

  291. “Since these people follow the prophet first and their oaths of office second, they are clearly not “duly elected” officials.”

    The prophet is not a political office, one could say

    “Since these people follow the Pastor first and their oaths of office second, they are clearly not “duly elected” officials.”

    or

    “Since these people follow the Pope first and their oaths of office second, they are clearly not “duly elected” officials”

  292. Most Policeman were decertified from NOT following the laws of Utah and Arizana… For instance, they didn’t arrest sexual abusers they knew, instead just kicked them out of the community, to prey on the general public. Chief Barlow wrote a letter of allegience to Warren Jeffs FIRST , instead of the Laws of Arizona and Utah First.
    The officers HID , COVERED UP, REFUSED to contact either state of rapes, or sexual assaults going on in their communities duane!

  293. They were getting paid salaries by either the county or state to enforce the laws of those states, NOT to play religion.

  294. Duh duane are you starting to see a ‘double-standard’ when it comes to public equality and civil rights in Short Creek? There is not going to be any working out of public areas and just ‘tweeking’ an agreement. The land in Short Creek is consecrated to the Almighty, there’s no deference to civil rights or Constitutional protections? Cemetery is blessed soil and ‘apostates’ being interred there directly challenges the teachings of a ‘United Order’ for dedicated FLDS members only, this isn’t subject to any common ground or negotiation. Keep ignoring the religious aspects, duane, and you fail to grasp the situation in it’s proper context. FLDS Church is looking to preserve religious tenets and you are trying to assert only Civil/Constitutional rights, they are mutually exclusive, especially when it comes to which takes the primary position. Duh duane if you truly believe that the Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land, be advised that the FLDS Church does not concur.

  295. duane ‘one man, one vote’ majority rule is a democracy axiom. The FLDS Church teaches,’One Man Rule’ and it has no democracy in mind as it’s basis.
    Warren chooses who marries who, devoid of choice, which grants him centralized control of the congregation and it’s formation. The Prophet dictates this control no one votes his position or checks/balances his authority which is absolute. Do you honestly believe our ‘Bill of Rights’ ever intended to impart such authority or tyranny under the right of, “Freedom of Religion”?

  296. Big Split took place, when FLDS voted ONE MAN RULE!

  297. You hear all this garbage about the flds practice of not owning private property, of having all things in common, etc.
    Does anyone seriously think willie’s house is owned by the uep. What about the mercedes suv willie drives. Is it owned by the uep so they have all things in common, heck no. The leaders are wealthy and enjoy a lavish life style while the poor are asked to use oatmeal for 2 meals a day. The poor have to scrimp so they can donate more to the “church” which goes to the leaders. The kingstons do the same thing, leaders wealthy off the backs of the poor.

  298. Right Ale,, and just what the courts said in 1998!!!
    Take for the poor to make themselves rich!

  299. Duh duane are you starting to see a ‘double-standard’ when it comes to public equality and civil rights in Short Creek?

    Absolutely. In Duane’s world civil rights are a one way street. His FLDS heroes should have theirs protected (even ones that don’t exist like polygamy) but don’t need to follow things like the Constitution once they set up actual secular governments.

  300. “The Prophet dictates this control no one votes his position or checks/balances his authority which is absolute”

    That is within the church, in very few churches are the leaders elected by the congregants. However, the elected positions to the city and other local agencies are done by secret ballot with the polling done in accordance with the AZ/UT election law. XFLDS are more than free to run for office.

    “Cemetery is blessed soil and ‘apostates’ being interred there directly challenges the teachings of a ‘United Order’ for dedicated FLDS members only”

    That is why the cemetary property needs to be divvied up. Remember, the UEP is not private property, the land was consecrated by fundie mormons for fundie mormons. Much like the property of a buddahist monastery, Baptist church real estate holdings like retreats, property owned by the Catholic church, so on.

  301. “Does anyone seriously think willie’s house is owned by the uep”

    I never heard that FLDS members were barred from purchasing property outside the UEP. In fact, I don’t think all FLDS members lived on UEP property, they were more than free to purchase real estate elsewhere.

  302. UEP housing and land is mortaged
    UEP is worth Millions Dollars. This land was free and clear. When Warren Jeffs in priesthood meeting had all the elders stand and vote to change the UEP Trust..he paved the way to be able to mortage the land and buildings. That was 5 or so years ago. The UEP was to protect the FLDS way of life. Now the land from Perry Barlows to Bob Steeds is mortgaged. It is not the only parcel! Even if you have “life estate” you could have the reaper on you doorstep. Lyle Jeffs, William Jessop, Bishop Will, Sam Allred, Nephi Allred, Wendell Nielson, and others are selling out the land from under your house. When Warren Jeffs stops making the mortgage payment..there are going to be alot of displaced families. Perry Barlow, Don Barlow, Alma Barlow Jr., Richard Timpson, Alan Barlow, Anthus Barlow, Dan Timpson, Terrel Dutson, Glen Barlow, George Barlow, James Broadbent, (or whoever is there now) and all the others in that area (CC) better stop making their contributions and start saving up for a down payment (on the house they built and live in).

    Do you see a pattern in the businesses and church? Milk it for all its worth, Declare Bankruptcy and run from it.

    David Allred, Rosa Barlow Allred, Guy Allred are great “front line” people for Warren Jeffs, although they maybe ahead of him on a few steps…but David has allways had a dream for power and control..look at what he is doing with the cottage workers doing Snugzs, making slaves out of them. It’s a great family project but look at what it is really doing to the family. Has you forgiven Allco all the past pay they can’t pay you? Have you seen the BMW David Allred drives. Or the house in Henderson? or that the YFZ and the ranch in Colorado is in David’s name and he could pull the carpet out from under Warren.

  303. “That is why the cemetary property needs to be divvied up. Remember, the UEP is not private property, the land was consecrated by fundie mormons for fundie mormons. Much like the property of a buddahist monastery, Baptist church real estate holdings like retreats, property owned by the Catholic church, so on.”

    Here’s a newsflash for ya, Duane. Those who have been kicked out of the FLDS are, for the most part, still “fundie Mormons”. So just because they’re apostates in the eyes of the FLDS, it doesn’t make them less beneficiaries.

  304. So deci, what about their religious principle about having things in common, If big fat willie can own his own property what is the big to do about wisans granting deeds and allowing other flds and ex flds people to own the houses they live in, and have in many cases built or greatly improved?? Don’t you see deci, it is all hypocrisy.

  305. ale wife,, If all Flds owned their own property, The blood sucking leaders could sponge off them with veil threats of kicking them off the land, stealing their wives and families.

  306. If Flds and non flds owned their own properties, its possible, they could actually become friends again. Home ownership makes pretty good neighbors!

  307. Duh duane Baptist, Buddhist or Catholic churches don’t impose communal living without any choice. Willie R. has a home in Hildale that makes him a flock member and his Boulder Mountain property is a second home. The FLDS Church, unlike any other major church leadership like Protestant, Catholic, Jewish or Islamic faiths, doesn’t proclaim that the women, children and priests are the property of the prophet, literally. You lie and gloss over these church tenets proclaiming your agnosticism but your blind to the reality of the FLDS Church teachings and beliefs. duane you don’t wish to see that proclaiming outright ownership to someone is slavery and against the 13th Amendment, passed into law in 1865 well after fundamental LDS doctrine was formed and codified. You don’t believe this to be the case but your ignorance does not nullify the FLDS Church doctrine or covenants. They do believe in members ownership by their divine prophet, duane, whether you buy it or believe in it.

  308. Actually, it seems like the flds leaders have perfected the perfect ponzi scheme. Give us your money and control over your lives. We will give you a ticket to the highest order of heaven. You will also receive blessings here on earth for your faithfulness.
    If someone gripes about not receiving a blessing for their donations they are told that it is their fault for not having enough faith. “Maybe if you have the faith to donate more it will come.” In the meantime the leaders take the money and have a good time with their multiple wives and the donations they receive.

  309. So Winnie and Jimmy have a reprieve until fall; Madam Justice Sunni Stromberg-Stein wants to consider the “prosecutor shopping” question as a matter of judicial review rather than as part of the criminal case.

    A riveting development, I’m sure, to devotees of Canadian Constitutional law, but somewhat less fascinating to me.

    That gives prosecutors, the media, and Inland Revenue two extra months to dig up more evidence. I say: Look at the logging camps! Look at the logging camps!

  310. All religion is a Ponzi scheme. Down in Galveston one of the famous buildings is the Bishop’s Palace. Televangelists take money from poor folks thinking their doing something positive and use it to buy gold plated toilets and private jets.

    Reminds me of what George Carlin said about God:

    “And he needs money! He’s all powerful, but he can’t handle money!”

  311. Warren used to get tithes like no other!

    Now he gets tithes like no other!

    ——FLDS = Gods Gift to Attorneys in the US, Canada and Mexico.

  312. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,531527,00.html#

  313. yuk!! Boots–that’s one sicko~~~

  314. Yes, it is quite amazing the power some men take from women.

    It is also quite amazing the power some women hand over blindly to men, even up to knowingly breaking the law, and intentionally raising every last one of their children to do it, too.

    I don’t know a single strong Texas man who wants to sexually, physically, mentally and emotionally control whole groups of women at a time.

    I can think of some mentally weak people who hand over all kinds of power, to all kinds of people.

    I can think of many brave, strong minded people who risked it all to live a free life, free from the crime, too.

    Abuse is not a religion.

  315. Article about the safety net organization. So much for thr false idea that all women in polygamy are happy with their situation and never need outside help to deal with the abuse inherent in that life style.

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705315909/Program-works-to-help-polygamists.html

    “Between July 2008 and March 2009, 1,500 people sought services or support. Of those, 129 from polygamous communities sought victim services for domestic violence, child abuse or sexual abuse. Another 141 sought counseling,
    Members of each of the major polygamous groups, including the Fundamentalist LDS Church, the Apostolic United Brethren and the Davis County Cooperative Society, have sought help,”

  316. I can think of many brave, strong minded people who risked it all to live a free life
    ====================================================
    Like the framers of the constitution.
    ====================================================
    I read the article Chemist. It seems like helping members leave their community is only a part of the safety net organization mission. I applaud what the safety net is doing so by default, I suppose, a lot of people will automatically hate it.

  317. “…I suppose, a lot of people will automatically hate it”.

    Again with the “hate”?

    Where exactly do you get “hate” from the simple facts, Alinusara?

  318. I’m sorry my friend for the confusion. What I meant was since I applaud the mission of the safety net, others may just despise their work without looking at the facts you eloquently pointed out. Bye the Bye, how did that visit to the cemetary work out for you.

  319. I think any person looking at the facts of this case will conclude that there are indeed some hateful feelings expressed over this issue, and in my own reading experience it has always come from the pro-polygamy side.

    I’m glad you asked about my attempt to visit the YFZ cemetery. I have video documentation of my own understanding of the facts, taken less than 20 minutes after I was refused entry on the advice of their attorney. I was refused on the grounds that I am “not a relative and our cemetery is private”.

    That footage should be posted for viewing before midweek.

    There was no media or law enforcement present when I made the attempt.

    I went alone.

    Everyone, including myself were are highly couteous and respectful.

    The YFZ should have an ecellent video document of the entire 45 minute encounter, since I was under constant vieo surv. the entire time.

    I will let my videotaped statement, made only minutes after the incident and using my handwritten notes as events unfolded, stand.

    Until then, I’d be glad to share my thoughts and feelings about not getting to see Allen.

    Are you interested in my thoughts?

  320. I think any person looking at the facts of this case will conclude that there are indeed some hateful feelings expressed over this issue, and in my own reading experience it has always come from the pro-polygamy side.
    ==========================================================
    I dunno. I was called some pretty hateful and spiteful names though I have always strived to treat people with courtesy and respect. My philosophy in posting is attact the argument never the person. Any anger expressed by me is an assault on the US Constitution which hundreds and thousands of our soldiers died defending.
    =====================================================
    Are you interested in my thoughts?
    =====================================================
    Sure that’s why I asked. I’m also curious what legal grounds they cited refusing you entry. A statute or a code would be more helpful rather then the vague statement it’s private and you are not a relative.

  321. Im interested boots!

  322. Any anger expressed by me is an assault on the US Constitution. . .
    ==========================================================
    Eek! Now that was very poorly phrased by me.

  323. Alinusara10 , I have a real problem with you! You are one of those people who talk out of both sides of your mouth. As the indians would say, you have forked tongue.
    At least most everyone here, has specific reasons why they are or are not against polygamy, and abuse. Even duane, stays on his same path he started with.

    But you, You are a shapeshifter, you change with the wind depending on which blog your on at the time. You intentionally lie and decieve. Your words are transparent.

  324. Whoever is admin of this blog, feel free to delete my post if you feel necessary.

  325. yá’át’ééh to everyone else 🙂

  326. Boots, beware of the ma’ii (coyote)

  327. I’ll make a post tonight. Thanks, dd.

  328. your welcome boots

  329. Yes–Boots–I do want to hear about your visit to the yfz–

    such as–whom did you talk to..etc…etc..etc..

    thanks…

  330. thanks for the update Boots, I guess that is too bad. We didn’t hear from you and wondered that they let you in and you liked it so much you decided to stay.
    If you found out where I lived and went to visit, I would have you under video survelliance too.

    “1,500 people sought services or support. Of those, 129 from polygamous communities sought victim services for domestic violence, child abuse or sexual abuse. Another 141 sought counseling,”

    A couple of hundred out of thousands and thousands. I bet the Safety net gets far more business than the rescue ranger groups.
    Of course like in “normal” society, the polygs have their share of abusive relationships, unhappily married folks, and other assorted personal issues. They are human beings just like rest of us. Boots was abused by her father, my mom sexually assaulted by her father who served some serious time in prison after she promptly ripped him off to her mother, Flora was sexually assaulted by her father who also served time….yeah abuse can happen anywhere…no culture is immune and it doesn’t matter whether you are monig, polyg, black, white, Jewish, atheist, christian, or Botswanian.

  331. Dizzy duane so if no society is immune to violence, rape, assault and other abuses are the statutes against those violent crimes supposed to be condoned or accepted. The House of Yahweh, Tony Alamo, etc. have been arrested, charged and facing legal consequences is the law being unevenly applied against the FLDS Church?

    Duh duane doesn’t seem odd that this is a church congregation that teaches it’s laity that committing felonies is a part of their Faith. Buddhism, Judaism or Catholics don’t teach their faithful to commit felonies as part of their religious teachings. These other churches could open similar arguments but choose instead to observe the laws, kind of a unique concept, huh? By the way no one here posts that the FLDS are not humans just that they don’t have a right to justify criminal acts as an aspect of their Faith. You, however wholly endorse their right to commit felonies all under the illicit banner of ‘Freedom of Religion’ which doesn’t exonerate them from legal consequences.

  332. CaJim, the only “crime” they endorse is polygamy. I and many will agree, do not regard polygamy as a criminal act worth pursuing.
    Utah AG Mark Shirtleff also agrees with that assessment.

  333. Gee, Duane, Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff? You want us all to blindly follow his assessment of the situation, really?

    Y’know, I don’t know about anyone else here, but I can guarantee you I won’t be standing in any line to follow a man, with a law degree, who is an elected official responsible for the prosecution of crimes in an American state, and who has submitted documents, with his approved signature into a court of law, which blatantly violate the constitutional rights of his own state’s citizens….hmmmm.

    Do you see the line forming here in Texas, Duane?

  334. Boots,, Unfortunately many politicians will pimp their integrity for a VOTE!

  335. No, Duane, polygamy is not the only crime they and/or their leadership have endorsed. They’ve endorsed the abandonment of unruly children, they’ve endorsed underage marriage, they’ve endorsed (by failing to act on, report, and try offenders) domestic abuse, sexual abuse and other acts of violence, they’ve endorsed many other crimes — and you know it. They may not be written tenets of the faith, but they have been very much in evidence in their practice of their faith. Besides, one man, one vote — the majority of America feel polygamy should be illegal and that it is harmful to women and children. Don’t we have a Constitutional right to make that choice? Just like the people in Short Creek are supposed to have a right to kick parents out of their homes for not agreeing to the marriage of their 15 year old daughters?

  336. So Duane thinks that polygamy is de facto legal because Mark Shurtleff refuses to prosecute polygamy cases.

    Is Duane talking about the Mark Shurtleff who used his AG letterhead to write an endorsement for a campaign contributor, who used to hang with indicted Ponzi-schemer Rick Koerber, and who steered travel arrangements on a Utah trade mission to his pal Daniel Rona?

    The same Mark Shurtleff who blew away his political capital on a settlement proposal that is legally and politically incompetent?

    Yeah, that guy has great sense.

  337. And behind Shurtleff you have Paul Murphy, who is Asst AG. He is following right behind shurtleff shirttales. Same mantra!

  338. There are only two lasting bequests we can hope to give our children. One is roots; the other, wings.

  339. “caJIM, the only crime they endorse is polygamy”

    Now Duh duane that’s a lie and you know it. You know that they practice marital reassignments of women whom are already married, some legally to just one man in a monogamous relationship. They remove a priest’s children, his wife or wives, their job or means of support and evict them from their homes all at the mercy and behest of the Prophet, devoid of any legal or civil rights. Your children’s educations end in the 8th Grade because the FLDS Church offers no further degrees or education beyond that point, regardless of any State statutes that may require mandatory education until the age of 16 or 17 years of age. Boys will begin employment on construction work crews or other adult jobs at the ages of 12-13 years of age, even if 16 or 18 years are mandatory minimum age(s). Girls will be married at 12 to 14 years of age by the Prophet or other FLDS Church Bishop regardless of a States minimum marriage age. The FLDS Church teaches as a tenet of their Faith that the Prophet owns all members and can choose to decide or do anything he chooses based upon his own determinations/decisions. If you object to this form of practiced slavery you can leave and that is your sole remedy without any legal or civil rights considerations. This form of dictatorship is unlawful and against the civil rights of any FLDS member, regardless of what beliefs are taught by the Prophet or his Leadership, they simply don’t possess any civil authority to impose such a religious axiom. Not that they haven’t tried duane, it’s just that they have been losing lawsuit after lawsuit for the past decade, basically since Warren S. Jeffs has been acting as the Prophet of the FLDS Church and there is no let up in sight.

  340. Interesting article from the Standard Times. These comments were made at the survivor’s picnic.

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy1145.html
    “She and other children were allowed to smile, but they were not permitted to laugh. “When I was a little girl, my grandmother gave me a doll that talked,” she said. “My aunt saw the doll and smashed it to bits because she said it was possessed. “We didn’t have baby dolls as children. We had real babies instead.”
    “”It’s true of the Taliban and it’s true of the FLDS,” Ignatin said. “Every instance of polygamy in any culture always forces women and children into poverty, restricts women’s choices, travel, and education, leads to the molestation of both boys and girls, and results in child brides.”
    Ignatin said she sees no difference between a burqa – the body-covering garment worn by Muslim women in Afghanistan – and a prairie dress, the

  341. CaJim, Even Brent Jeffs wrote that when they were kicked out by Rulon, some in his family were like “Yippee!” when hearing the “bad” news, since they presumably owned their home, they weren’t evicted. Rulon late called them asking the women if they want to be “reassigned”, they basically said, “Thanks but no thanks”, that was the end of that. Many who were exed by Warren, their wives or some of their wives, went with them. Warren or othe leaders can say all they want about priesthood “property”, if the women want to leave on their own or with their exed hubbies, then can and many do. The allegations of child labor, yeah I suppose that it worth investigatiing-teens shouldn’ be working with dangerouos equip. whether FLDS or not. However, as PK and pliggy have both pointed our, alleged work abuses were not directed by Warren but the owners or operators of the enterprises in question, Warren Jeffs is not responsible for every alleged violation that went on in Short Creek. These folks are individuals not a monolithic whole and they seem to get very offended or befuddled when outsiders label them as such. Many of the women far from being “barefoot and pregnant” as the anti-flds told the Texas house back in ’05, many of the women have advanced education, are teachers, accountants, nurses, emt’s, etc…Reports are that several “pure blooded” FLDS women are attending college at Southern Utah as we speak. Hopefully they send some through law school, a teen girl at YFZ wants to be one and pointed out that Law in an “in demand” occupation among the FLDS..

    Yeah, Warren married a few tweeners-may very have been purely ceremonial, but the vast majority of FLDS marriages were within the age of consent and they vowed the state’s marriage laws will be respected by the church from now on. If you read the latest question by an FLDS parent on Winston’s blog, and note that when Oprah visited the ranch, they all said 18 should be minimum age for marriage, now you can say they are talking up for the camera, nevertheless they are fully aware of the age restrictions.
    Here was the question posted to Winston Blackmore:

    My son is getting on in years and he wants to get married. He knows this young woman and has been talking to her for two years via email, text messaging, and many times in person. She is of age so that is not a problem. The problem is that we are flds and her father has told her that no one can do a marriage or authorize one until, well, who knows when. What should I tell my son?
    http://sharethelight.ca/b2/

    I don’t agree with Warren’s dictatorial style, but much of what he did was obviously a result of outside pressure, he just reacted the wrong way. I’ve read some articles from 2003 where Shirtleff openly avowed that he was going to get Jeffs. So, I imagine when Warren read that in the press it had a profound effect on his plans for the future.

  342. Yeah, Warren married a few tweeners…

    Any marriage to a tweener is wrong – doesn’t matter how few – it’s a few too many. It’s time to send them to jail and Texas is going to do it.

    they vowed the state’s marriage laws will be respected by the church from now on

    Who said? Willie? They said the same thing back in 1953. If you believe that crap, I’ve got a great deal on some land for you Duane.

    Here was the question posted to Winston Blackmore

    Blackmore who married how many 15 year olds? 5? Damn Duane how many facts can you be confronted with and still persist in your nonsense? It just boggles my mind that you can believe any of their propaganda.

  343. Tony Alamo is going on trial today in federal court!

  344. duane , I guess that’s why Brent Jeffs showed up at YFZ ranch right after the raid? He told reporters his main concern was the way children are treated inside Flds. He also said, he went through it and wanted to testify if need be.

  345. Ron; duane will rationalize, prevaricate, etc. to prove that his flds heros have not done anything wrong and are simple religious people wanting to be left alone to marry 12-14 year olds, defraud the govt. and so on. The flds must be paying duane to fill the boards with hissometimes inane comments.
    Tony Alamo goes on trial today for transporting girls across state lines for sex. Why haven’t similar charges been brought against warren, merril, wendell, willie and the rest of that organized crime family??

  346. correction to above post:
    Line 4 should read: “his sometimes inane posts”

    Or, should the sometimes be left out so it reads:
    “his inane posts”

  347. I’m not rationalizing anything, my point is that most flds are innocent of anything. If Warren is found guilty, that doesn’t mean everybody else is guilty. What are you going to do about it anyway. If all 12 in Texas go to jail, so be it. The rest are still around, living, working, and raising their families in Short creek, Texas, CO, SD, and Canada and you can’t do anything about it.

    The age of consent in Canada was 14 till 2005, that is why Blackmore is only charged with polygamy. How old were Oler’s wives? He only had 3. The reality is about half or so FLDS households are monig anyway, most of the others are 2 or 3 wives, only a relatively few have more than that.

    Ron, if some FLDS polygamists moved in next door to you in Clear Lake, what are you going to do about it?

  348. The 12 in Texas are the leaders, duane. Don’t you understand ANYTHING about group dynamics? The men stood around guarding the temple at YFZ and were inside shredding evidence. You think THEY are innocent? They had to have known how Warren got his inspiration and they were helping to hide it. That makes them guilty as hell to me, every last one of them, as if they did the 12 year olds themselves.

    Who cares about the age of consent in Canada, if Jeffs sent them under aged girls across state and federal lines?

    What the heck is wrong with you? It all stinks to high heaven. Acknowledge it and move on. Get a hobby. Take up knitting or World of Warcraft.

  349. Just leave out the sometimes.

  350. Duane,

    The final CPS report documented 263 confirmed victims of Neglegtful Supervision. They identified 12 cases of confirmed sexual abuse.

    There were 94 identified perpetrators of neglectful supervision [gee, sorry this all happened after it was too late for Allen], and 30 identified perpetrators of SEXUAL ABUSE.

    I have a question for you, Duane. What is the statute of limitations on bringing a charge before a grand jury, of sex abuse or physical abuse against a child, in Texas?

    Total identified designated perpetrators: 124

    Another question for you, Duane. How many men were on the YFZ at the time of the rescue? I can guarantee you it was closer to a 3rd of that number.

    That leaves how many perpetrators vulnerable to future prosecution? And what sex do you think they are, Duane?

  351. Duane – if the knew about it and didn’t report it – they’re as guilty as those actually doing the act.

  352. Duane,

    You do yourself a disservice by coming on to the blog and not knowing what your talking about. For God’s sake, acknowledge this group’s inherent belief that they are above the law, have lived that way for years and are now paying the piper.

    We are talking about ABUSE IN POLYGAMY. That they have been allowed to break the law for years is unbelievable.
    That they have NOT been brought into compliance with the law is highly offensive to me. What is the difference between me and them? Why should I be required to follow the law, and they are not? Because they live in Utah? So? I live in MS. Does this mean I can come to Utah and break the law (you know, the laws they don’t care about enforcing?)

    I mean if you want to defend a group of people , then can you find some other group? Because this ISN’T the group to defend.

    And what idiot told you that the women are advancing their education? I’m sorry, I missed it, what is Ruby’s vocation or career? Since they want to deny their women are controlled, let’s see her. Where is she going to school at? What college?

    What’s her phone no? Since your so close to them and all, make me a believer.

  353. And for the record, I certainly did not start off believing anything bad, I had no prior knowledge of it, new nothing about it and just started reading everything I could. (books & internet)

    But once I did start reading, I got a completely different picture, and it might surprise you, Duane, but the book that was the “nail in the coffin” so to speak, was Benjamin Bistline’s book “Colorado City Polygamists”, NOT a survivor’s story.

  354. deci: where is your source for stating that only half of the flds engage in polygamy? Also, do you mean half of the women or half of the men?
    Any closed polygymous society will always have a surplus of men. If half of the men have two wives each, the other half of the men will have no wife and no prospect for obtaining one. Is that what you mean.

  355. Seems Brooke Adams did a “fluff” story on a polygamist family.
    This guy talks about diverse lifestyles and is fundementalists mormon.

    I would be willing to bet you, that same guy that is ranting how polygamy is wonderful and harms no would, and people should accept it, wouldn’t stand in a gay protest for their rights.

  356. Mississippi girl makes a good point “And for the record, I certainly did not start off believing anything bad, I had no prior knowledge of it, new nothing about it and just started reading everything I could. (books & internet)”

    Bigotry is taught from parents and social group. My parents and social group had no knowledge of polygamy and I can’t name a single Mormon that I knew before I started studying them. I have read accounts from 150 years ago, from 500 years ago, from the Bible, from other countries, from various religions and sects. The stories are remarkably the same.

  357. duane wrote “That is within the church, in very few churches are the leaders elected by the congregants. ”

    Another inane post. Hello!?!?

    MOST protestants do exactly that, either the whole congregation or a council of elders. It’s really fairly easy for most pastors to get fired.

    A council of cardinals get together at the vatican and vote for the Pope.

    You’re just spouting trash.

  358. deputydog,

    I’ve known some really dysfunctional families that could put on a good show for the public.

    That man sure likes to talk, doesn’t he? And anyone who doesn’t like his family is a narrow minded bigot who doesn’t get out much. Sound familiar?

  359. Thanks Betty, and that would be why the U.N. has declared polygamy to be a human rights abuse of women and children.

    Polygamy is abuse.

  360. “Yeah, Warren married a few tweeners…”

    The goat joke. That’s all I’m going to say.

  361. I agree 100%!!!! The stories are the same, and that is why I really started getting a “funny feeling” when I read over and over the stories of neglect, abuse-emotional, physical & sexual, the poverty, the complete control of the women by the men and their insatiable need for power.

    Which is what drives them now.

    For all you FLDS ladies that are taking a peek at the sight, you don’t have to have a man to get to heaven, you don’t have to share your man, and out here in the real world, we have wonderful people that would help you find your way. So take the first step and “step away” and get control of your life. We don’t hate you, we want a better life for you where you make your own choices, get an education and proper medical care while NOT breaking the law and teaching your children to do the same.

  362. Duane posts all this crazy crap that we know is crap and then he leaves. So we all discuss it even though WE have the same view point.

    I think he just likes to get us going and then leaves the site before we can prove everything he says is wrong. (sigh)……

    I find it irritating.

  363. mississippi girl: I think you are right asbout duane. People who act like that are known as trolls. The recommended way to handle trolls is to simply ignore them.

  364. I am saying about 1/2 or so of FLDS households are monig. according to Short creekers themselves. Al Holm, all his brothers but one were in monig relationships.
    Betty, the cardinals vote for the pope, not the general population. It is an oligarchy

    Ruby is doing just fine.

    later

  365. Well your always asking for proof or sources! So I’m asking yours.

    How do you know Ruby is doing fine? Proof or source, please.

  366. duane, Al Holm is NOT a Short Creeker, LOL. mississippigirl, duane gets is “proof” from Al Holm (aka Pliggy) a FLDS man that Warren kicked out but who would do anything asked by Warren or any FLDS person to get back in because he is unable to adjust to the “outside”. Al Holm is a “self-professed” “expert” on everything and everyone who is or has ever been FLDS. Al Holm personally claims to have seen and heard everything that has ever happened, been said or even thought by anyone that was EVER FLDS. Again duane, all knowing, all seeing Al Holm is not the FLDS prophet because??????

  367. Duane,

    Who voted for Warren Jeffs?

  368. I don’t know that I would be doing fine with 6 kids, being watched and accompanied everywhere and having to share my husband but maybe your definition of fine is different than mine, Duane.

  369. LadySadie,

    Is Al Holm the one on the recorded phone conversation when he is being asked about Ruby and her whereabouts and I think he is talking to a brother?

  370. LadySadie,

    Right you are. Pliggy wrote about his sister’s ‘abduction’ on his blog and his sister came on and told him to stop talking about her cause he was full of it. Pretty funny, really.

  371. Right, pliggy is an ex flds. Those people are told when they are kicked out to NOT live in short creek or even St George or Cedar City. The flds leaders want them to not communicate with or be part of the flds community. So Al Holm said something about one small family and deci extrapolates that to a society of thousands. Good grief, show some logic.

  372. duane and pliggy as sources for all things flds; ROFLMAO!!!

  373. Not sure about any recorded phone conversations mississippigirl, but Al Holm’s sister Fawn Holm did escape from the FLDS and went to live with another brother (Carl) that had left. Al would phone her and harrass her and call her all kinds of nasty names until Carl had to put a stop to Al calling her.

  374. Ok, I found the recording. It is between James & Les Zitting, not the Holm brothers. It’s on Youtube.

  375. Alinusara10 , I have a real problem with you! You are one of those people who talk out of both sides of your mouth. As the indians would say, you have forked tongue.
    At least most everyone here, has specific reasons why they are or are not against polygamy, and abuse.
    =========================================================
    But my friend I am neither for or against polygamy. I thought I made that perfectly cleared. As an ex soldier I’m strictly pro US Constitution. The US Constitution has a supremecy clause that makes it the highest law in the land.

  376. Thanks Betty, and that would be why the U.N. has declared polygamy to be a human rights abuse of women and children.
    =====================================================
    The UN has declared the death penalty has a human rights abuse but we don’t necessarily listen to everything they got to say.

  377. Bye the way. No one has mention it but the defense motion is up regarding the suppression hearing.
    http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_12826160

  378. mississippi girl,, that is Les Zitting in the interview with his brother about Ruby.

  379. Alinusara, you are a LIAR!

  380. I’ve been browsing to see if anyone but our Brooke got an advance copy of Mr. Goldstein’s opus. It doesn’t appear to have been covered in depth by any other paper, so methinks she was given a scoop by her faithful friends in the FLDS.

    That leads me to wonder if even the judge received hers before our Brooke did.

    In that I have my doubts about Ms. Adams’ impartiality and a headache to boot, I think I’ll wait for the source document. It’s so much easier that way.

  381. Anyone ever read any of John Llewellyn ‘s books? He has a new one coming out called Mormon Polygamy, A Virus of the Mind.

  382. Since I first looked at the San Angelo paper, they’ve filed a more complete story. So they are now up to speed with BA.

  383. There’s a “timestamp” on Brookie’s story, isn’t there? Be fun to find out what the timestamp is on the Judge’s copy.

  384. The current time stamp is 07/13/2009 10:43:15 AM MDT. Although this is probably when the story was posted, the time stamp reflects the last update, not the first iteration.

  385. If you look at her story about the state’s final statement (stamped 4:21 PM) it sounds like a story written about breaking news:

    http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_12828232

    Brooke had her story in the can before Judge Walther ever saw Mr. Goldstein’s opus.

  386. To compare, the San Angelo paper’s Goldstein story was originally published at 4:06 PM and updated at 5:15 PM.

    They scratch Brooke’s back, she scratches theirs.

  387. That’s wierd cause San Angelo News printed the first headline at 3:30 this afternoon, updated it into a new headline at 5:16 pm

  388. The first story in San Angelo was an AP story from San Antionio at 3:30

  389. mississippigirl, you mentioning Les Zitting got me searching, LOL. Found this interview with him right after the YFZ rescue happened:

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2003232/posts

    About half way into the interview boy did he call things right:

    ” I thank Texas for stepping in but I still question whether even Texas will or can do enough. — These issues go very very deep into human rights, civil rights and Religious Liberties. I do not see that even Texas will hang in there and STOP the abuses. Only time will tell.”

    How sad that as early as April 17, 2008 (just weeks after the rescue) a knowledgeable ex-FLDS man knew that even Texas would cave to what he called “I knew this “snake” was much, much bigger than what we could do.”

    And here is his last thought at that time:

    “I have tried NOT to watch the news casts as these Polygamist women spoke. I knew there were LIES being spoken!!! As I watched, I asked myself, “How can you people, who claim integrity, honesty, and truth look into those cameras and tell the entire world that you don’t know of any under-aged marriages between girls under 16 to men 2 ,3 and even 4 times their age”. :

  390. I went back to take a screen shot of Brooke’s time stamp for posterity and it was updated. Dang it. But at least I wrote the time down.

    I might spend some time later tonight seeing if I can retrieve the cached page.

  391. First headline San Angelo news:

    Polygamous men argue search violated their rights
    The Associated Press
    Originally published 03:03 p.m., July 13, 2009
    Updated 03:03 p.m., July 13, 2009

    Second Headline San Angelo News:
    Briefs filed in FLDS motion for evidence suppression hearing
    By Matt Phinney (Contact)
    Originally published 04:06 p.m., July 13, 2009
    Updated 05:16 p.m., July 13, 2009

  392. BTW, Les Zitting IS NOT Sheryl Zitting who posts as “onthestreet” or just “street”.

  393. The AG office in Texas filed their briefs June 5…
    The story says Walther gave the defense 30 days to file and the AG Office 3 weeks.

    They didn’t know why it took so long for Goldstein to file his briefs.

  394. DD, that was May 16, right? It took Mr. Goldstein nearly two months to come up with a 103-page retread that says absolutely nothing new. (For the defendants’’ sake, I hope he was charging by the word and not by the hour.)

    Judge Walther has shown remarkable patience and restraint with this crew.

  395. Thats right Greetings!

  396. Alinusara, you are a LIAR!
    ====================================================
    Please don’t call me a liar.
    ====================================================
    UNITED NATIONS — The General Assembly adopted a moratorium on the death penalty Tuesday, overcoming opposition from the United States, China and others that argued each nation should be able to choose for itself how to combat crime.

    The 104-54 vote for suspending executions is not legally binding, but represents a growing global trend against a punishment that many countries say undermines human rights, is a questionable deterrent and has mistakenly killed innocent people.

  397. GFNY, the first comment on Brooke’s article was at 11:55 am, so the article had to be written long before that.

  398. Remember that Utah and Arizona are one hour behind us right now, too.

  399. Brooke has to be very frustrated that the state of Texas and the rest of the country aren’t populated by sheeple.

  400. In every state the law allows a man or a woman to be married to only one person of the opposite sex at a time. The crime of having more than one current spouse is called polygamy. Under the law there is no difference between bigamy (having two spouses) and polygamy (having more than one spouse). States base their laws on the Model Penal Code § 230.1, which states that a person is guilty of the third-degree felony of polygamy if he or she “marries or cohabits with more than one spouse at a time in purported exercise of the right of plural marriage.” The offense continues until all cohabitation with and claim of marriage to more than one spouse terminate. Polygamy laws do not apply to aliens who are temporarily visiting the United States, provided that polygamy is lawful in their country of origin.

  401. “Polygamy laws do not apply to aliens who are temporarily visiting the United States, provided that polygamy is lawful in their country of origin.”

    And yet is is one of the questions asked of potential legal immigrants. Their applications for immigration are soundly DENIED if they answer “yes” to currently practicing or purport to have the right to practice polygamy once legally here in America.

    NPR had an excellent story on the subject, interviewing a young Muslim immigrant whose “husband” was taking concubines. She pointed out that only her “husband” had a visa, and if she sought legal recourse, she feared his conviction, and her deportation.

    Gee, of the estimated 50,000 to 100,000 Muslims practicing polygamy illegally in this country, I wonder how many stories like hers are really out there.

  402. Dear FLDS Texas Admin,

    Is there any way you can get a copy of the prosecutor’s (Texas AG’s) brief and also a copy of this new defense team’s brief (which is not so brief at 103 pages)?

    Maybe we could pitch in and help you pay for it. Set up a PayPal account and we can donate to it for the court fees to get a copy of these documents.

    Or, just be a REALLY nice guy and splurge for your devoted and appreciative blog visitors – LOL

    Pretty please?

  403. We’re trying to get it — no one has the defense brief other than Brooke, not even the prosecution. If our Tom Green or Schleicher County want to go to the courthouse and get it, we can reimburse you for the copy fee. I understand it’s about $100

  404. Here they are:

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2009/07/13/state-and-defense-closing-briefs-motion-to-suppress/

  405. WOW, FLDS Texas, you are AMAZING.

    Thank you!

  406. FLDS TEXAS said in reference to: ‘a copy of the prosecutor’s (Texas AG’s) brief and also a copy of this new defense team’s brief’ ……..**We’re trying to get it — no one has the defense brief other than Brooke, not even the prosecution.**

    hmmmmmm, I’m trying to calculate just how many Krispy Kreme donuts it took for Brooke to get Jabba-Willie to pass the documents to her before they hit the court.

    regular sugar glaze = 2 pages
    chocolate dip = 3
    pink glaze with rainbow sprinkles = 4

    Geeze Louise ya’ll :)….Brooke has been in bed with these guys for ages. She the ultimate re-assigned wife. But it is rather funny to see such outstanding FAIL on her yellow journalism-bootay.

    In the words of Nelson (from the Simpsons) HA-Ha~

  407. grammar edit “she’s the ultimate”

  408. What on earth does the UN stance on the death sentence have to do with the price of eggs on the YFZ ranch? Or whether or not Alinusara is misrepresenting himself?

  409. I think Alin’s argument is that we do what we want regardless of what the UN says. We have capital punishment in this country even though the UN condemns it. So, he’s arguing that the UN calling polygamy a human rights violation is irrelevant.

  410. I think you are right, Ron. I understood her point, clearly.

    I have no real love for the U.N., and do not want the U.S. to abandon its sovereignty to the organization, especially in regards to the death penalty, which I could care less if it is a deterrent to crime or not. It is a punishment for gross crime.

    I do, however, believe that Texas could avail itself of the wisdom gleaned by the United Nations research, and possibly call them in as expert witnesses or consultants on the cultural practice. They have evidence we can use in this fight.

    I’m not asking any Texan to subject themselves to the U.N., I’m simply asking them to use their bevy of information, facts and experts to our advantage.

    Politics does indeed make for strange bedfellows.

  411. The discussion of the UN stance on polygamy, and the fact that the US has repeatedly vowed to the UN to uphold that policy IN WRITING, is more a matter of establishing that the idea that polygamy is a violation of civil rights is not some wild eyed notion of a few bigoted and sexually repressed old women who (as Kody Brown said) “don’t get out much”. I do believe that any nation who repeals their laws against polygamy will eventually have to open that discussion at a world level and it will not be pretty. It is, IMHO, insane for the US, Canada and Holland to be legalizing it, while the rest of the world struggles to end this oppressive practice. It is true that UN resolutions have no teeth unless countries are willing to back them up with diplomatic, economic or military sanctions.

  412. I just finished reading “When Men Become Gods” – It ends in Fall 2007 on the hopeful note that the combined actions of law enforcement were beginning to have an impact in Short Creek with probable privatization of property etc. Seems to be a very different picture now?

  413. Ron in Houston, TexasBluesman, GFNY, Chemist, FLDSTexas
    I have written a two page document I want to drop off at various Senators/Representatives in DC when I am there in August. I was wondering if you could proof read it. Also if any of you answer yes, how I can reach you?

  414. HHGB: you can email it to me at: chemist1952@zapak.com

    I applaud your efforts.

  415. According to Schliecher county, Goldstein’s brief was filled yeseterday at 10:50am.

    How brookey got them so early is anyone’s guess…

  416. I want to read the Llewellyn books. I think it’s interesting that a man who has been through it has an opinion on polygamy.

  417. Sigh. Has a negative opinion on polygamy. Sorry.

  418. hellohellogoodbye, drop me a line at lt289 at yahoo dot com please?

  419. hellohellogoodbye,

    I would love to see it, too if you wouldn’t mind, please?

    godblesstexas1 at g mail dot com

  420. What is Brooke trying to say in that Footnote 94? Something about Flora?

  421. mississippigirl, that blog entry of Brooke’s looks to me like she is implying some type of accusation of wrong doing on Flora’s part while trying to legally “cover her butt” and not stating an implicit accusation.

  422. While we’re on the subject of butt covering…

    http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=7159092

    Here they come, ladies and gentelmen, the unified “Principle Voices” of women claiming polygamy/bigamy is a normal religious right, even though the SCOTUS has always said otherwise, and rejected the opportunity to even hear such a case as recently as 2007.

    Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

  423. LadySadie, on Footnote 94 thats exactly what Brooke is doing! For the life of me I don’t know why Flora would have even answered the phone and talked with Brooke? And she didn’t bother confirming information Flora gave her.

  424. Principle Puppets is more like it.

  425. Mary Batchlor never tells people that her husbands first wife, left because of her. Seems plural life isn’t so great as Mary Batchlor tries to make it sound.

  426. Betty,

    This is just the begining. I guarantee you the Muslim American version of principle puppets is coming, soon.

    Also, for anyone who would like to be kept up to speed as late breaking news on the YFZ Ranch Cemetery Access refusal develops, please shoot me an email to be on the “first to know list” on the who, what, when and wheres.

    We are now less than 48 hours out from a press conference on the subject in a major Texas city.

    Anyone who wants to join us, to show their support for our rights under the law is welcome to attend.

    Mediamanager 1 at g mail dot com

  427. Whatisname Alin if he were American instead of FLDS would know that some few US states have death penalty, while most do not.

  428. GrannyToad,

    What makes you think Alin-Usura, Ali-Nusura is FLDS?

    There are other cultures which promote the illeagal practice of polygamy in America, too.

  429. I of course meant “illegal”.

  430. HHG, I would love to proof-read it. Will get a copy from Chemist or Rattle since I’m much too sensible to post my contact info.

  431. Oh Goody Goody, Mark Shurtleff believes underage marriages are no longer happening,in ANY polygamists groups!!! Amazing, wonder if God gave him that revelation or if he thought it up himself??

  432. DD, where did you read that?

    None of us can know for sure either way. But I wouldn’t bet the farm on it.

  433. Boots, I read your blog post, it seems the flds people were going to let you in but then refused under advice from their attorney.
    If it weren’t for that they very may have offered you a cold beer and sandwich.

    The last time SCOTUS ruled on polygamy was 1879 that decision even preceded Plessy vs. Ferguson which upheld segregration for the next 60 years so it is a little dated to say the least. They most recently refused because the Tom Green case involved a minor.
    So Boots, Blues, Ron, Flora et al….what are you guys going to do if polygamy is upheld by SCOTUS? Unless a polygamist escape runs to you for help, will you leave them alone and try minding your own business for a change, or at least take up a cause that isn’t directed toward a specific ethnic/religious minority like abortion, Greenpeace, Earth liberation front, or the various anti WTO activist groups?

  434. http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=7159092

  435. Are you kidding duane, im a member of an anti abortion group. Of course we don’t believe in violence,but SCOTUS will uphold the polygamy ban duane, because if they don’t, then slavery is legal again.

  436. SALT LAKE CITY – Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff said he believes the practice of so-called “child bride” marriages within polygamous societies has been halted.

    “I’m quite confident that the practice of child-bride marriages has effectively stopped in this state,” he said in an interview Tuesday with KSL NewsRadio.

    Shurtleff said to date, his office has had no direct evidence that any underage marriages are being performed in the polygamous communities within the state.

    “It doesn’t mean it hasn’t,” he said. “We will still look.”
    ********
    Liar Liar, pants on fire!!!

  437. Duane,

    I am not ascribing any motives to their behavior.

    I am simply pointing out that, yet again, we face a situation where we are expected to make an exception in our law for them, because they have chosen to flagrantly break Texas law, again.

    My point is that Texans are “on to” their criminal games.

  438. Boots, you and flora would be a lot more productive if you emarked on a campaign against the Mexican Narco gangs, many of them have ifiltrated across the border and are establishing themselves in Phoenix, Houston, Austin, and Atlanta and perhaps even San Angelo, many trafficking routes go through West Texas. If you guys would drive around the south making speeches against them I would totally support you.

  439. correction: embarked on a campaign

  440. Well Principal Voices is have a workshop… just costs $125.00 lunch included…HAHAHAHAHAHA
    How many FLDS do you think will attend?

  441. Duane we are giving you authorization to take on the narco squads from mexico!!! LOL LOL LOL

  442. Also boots, it seems the FLDS folks are making every effort to avoid the town of Eldorado, as it has been reported that they haven’t seen an FLDS’er in over a year, so it seems that they are not being “abused” by FLDS polygamists and the Mormon fundies are doing everything they can to avoid the local people, so your blog post where you express fears about the FLDS folks daring to settle near Eldorado and infect them with their evil ways is totally groundless. If they can leave the local Eldoradoans unmolested and in peace, I’m sure the locals can do likewise to the Fundy mormons.

  443. Poppy Cock Duane!

  444. Isn’t it your bedtime duane?

  445. “If they can leave the local Eldoradoans unmolested and in peace, I’m sure the locals can do likewise to the Fundy mormons.”

    “Can” and “will” are two totally different things. Not that I’m saying anyone is going to do anything. I just can’t resist pointing out the giant hole in your (what might laughingly be called) logic.

  446. I don’t think the fundy mormons “will” attack the local Eldoradoeans and hope the local eldoradoeans “will” not attack the fundy mormons. We need to learn to get along no matter what our race, color, or creed.

  447. For your information duane, the citizens of Eldorado, Texas already welcome all law abiding citizens, no matter what their “race, color or creed”

  448. What the criminals of the FLDS need to remember is “No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that’s in the right and keeps on a-comin'”

  449. Our nation has more important things to worry about than who is sleeping with who. I’m of course talking about those who are old enough to consent, even the youngest formerly pregger YFZ girl is now an adult.

  450. Yep, if she is 32, and the mother of 16 children and grandmother to 2, that means her first pregnancy occured when she was 15…bye bye to freedom for her!

    It also means she has spent 14 of those years as a *responsible adult*, making illegal choices about her “lifestyle”, and teaching at least 18 other people to commit the crime as well.

  451. Wrong again duane, you seem to want to forget about the little girl that warren impregnated at 12 or 13, she gave birth at 13 and is still not an adult! There is no published proof that Merianne Jessop Jeffs is not already a mother, she is not an adult. There is no published proof that Teresa Jeffs Jessop is not already a mother, she is not an adult.

  452. “Our nation has more important things to worry about than who is sleeping with who. I’m of course talking about those who are old enough to consent, even the youngest formerly pregger YFZ girl is now an adult.”

    So we should ignore the crime perpetuated against her because she is now all “grown up”? Your disregard for the safety of young women is truly disgusting. And just what is the statute of limitations on rape?

  453. One of the things that struck me is the need for both Mohave County and Washington County to step up in this situation. With the Short Creek city governments being still under the control of Jeffs, the only solution to this very complex situation will be for the county governments to step into the breech and try to act as a buffer.

    The whole situation with the UEP is enormously complex. The interaction of the FLDS, the UEP, and the various governmental entitles makes this a highly difficult know to unravel.

    Ron in Houston said this on July 9, 2009 at 7:24 PM

    Yes Ron, this is the ideal answer, but it isn’t going to happen in Utah any time soon. The local sheriff has long ignored the goings on in the Hildale/Colorado City area and that won’t stop until he is out of office. He’s been around for far too long, but keeps running for office and keeps getting re-elected.

    Until anything changes, it is status quo so don’t hold your breath.

  454. So Boots, Blues, Ron, Flora et al….what are you guys going to do if polygamy is upheld by SCOTUS?

    Personally, I’ll barbecue my shoe and eat it. It ain’t happening. No how. No way. The SCOTUS has a conservative majority. In addition, polygamy probably won’t fly with several of the more liberal justices.

    My theory of the SCOTUS is that their decisions reflect their real life experiences. Almost all of them probably have friends or acquaintance who are homosexuals. That’s why you have decisions like Lawrence v. Texas. I’ll bet none of the SCOTUS know anyone who is a polygamist.

    I guess we’ll see. One of the dirty dozen is charged with simple adult bigamy. That could be the test case that all the polygamist are hoping for.

  455. If they can leave the local Eldoradoans unmolested and in peace,
    duane said this on July 14, 2009 at 9:31 PM

    WOW, this is such a Morman word to use – “unmolested” I have traveled and live all over the US and the world and I never heard that phase until visiting Utah. The Mormons and the fundi-mormons just seem to use that “unmolested” word in their vocabulary and their writings in abundance.

    So that leads me to think that Duane is either a Mormon, a Mormon-fundie or a Mormon-fundie wantabe because that “unmolested” word he used, to me, is a real revealing trigger word.

  456. Duh duane,”We need to get along no matter what race, color or creed”. Do you have a copy or know of the FLDS Creed? I don’t believe that they espouse one duane, therefore, following the Prophet’s latest whim, like marriage to girls that have reached puberty, regardless of their legal status as children, really proffers no protection under this felony statute. Statutory rape is a first degree form of rape because by definition it is the singular act of an Adult committed against a child. Like the charges currently brought against Tony Alamo in Texarkana, Arkansas. Tony seemed to share with every girl he raped that the Almighty had told him to do so but it doesn’t effect or change the statutory rape law.

  457. Well now cajIM, don’t ya think that if the Almighty had told Tony Alamo and Warren Jeffs to rape little girls as they claim then he would have changed those laws? I mean he is the Almighty after all and if he wants the males of the FLDS and Tony Alamo to rape little girls he would changed those laws against the rape of little girls.

  458. Why isn’t Warren Jeffs and Merril Jessop and the leadership of FLDS in a federal court??? Why hasn’t IRS investigated their corporations?

  459. Sadie if the Truth be known, I don’t even buy the Almighty saying go to Texas as the ‘Land of Refuge’ for Fundamentalists LDS, shouldn’t somebody like even an angel or whoever, have asked permission of the Texas Rangers? The Texas Ranger posse surrounding the YFZ Ranch and taking actions to enforce Law & Order was a fairly predictable outcome for a rogue Mormon sect that has been excommunicated from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Have you ever been to Short Creek and realize where these people were spawn from that remote Utah/Arizona area?

  460. “Personally, I’ll barbecue my shoe and eat it. It ain’t happening. No how. No way”

    Oh, they will probably uphold the states refusal to legally recognize mulitiple marriages, but any statutes against cohabitation will fall, then the issue of how to define “polygamy” especially if none of the participants are legally married, whatever the definition of “purport” means. If a triad is living together and having children, what would make them “polygamists” as opposed to living an “alternative lifestyle”? How would the court answer those questions in light of Lawrence and even gay marriage becoming legal in several states now

    Kdee and others always respond by telling me they could care less who I (duane) am sleeping or cohabbing with. But why do you care so much about who Fundie Mormons are sleeping with? Of course I’m excluding children. How can you possibly word an antipolygamy statute that applies to mormon fundies and other religious polygamists while excluding alt. lifestylers and so-called polyamorists? You can’t, so of course this whole thing is merely an attack on a particular religious belief.

  461. don’t ya think that if the Almighty had told Tony Alamo and Warren Jeffs to rape little girls as they claim then he would have changed those laws?

    What? I thought everybody knew that government was the Great Satan.

  462. Duh duane I wrote earlier about ‘Child Brides’ and Prophet Warren Jeffs teaching that marrying minor aged girls was approved by God from menses, regardless of the law. Do you consider my pointing out this particular tenet and teaching of the Prophet to be an attack, persecution or form of bigotry? Do you still hold that violating felony laws is some form of acceptable civil protest?

    Monogamy is the legal, practiced and acceptable form of marriage in all States within the United States. Bigamy as a legal or accepted form of marriage has never been condoned or legal within the United States.

  463. This is not an attack on religious belief, Duane, we are not talking about a religion.

    They are a cult. OR better yet, a group of people who want to live their way, while breaking our laws and abusing their women and children.

    That is not religion.

    And they have NEVER applied to any state to be classified as a “religion”.

  464. Does deci duane really believe that if you rape, molest, or have sex with a child who is under the age of consent you are free from any charges once the child reaches the age of consent?
    Excuse me, but that sounds like bull manure of the highest order.
    Sounds like another rationalization to let his flds heros off the hook. Unfortunately for duane and his flds buddies the laws are different than duane’s delusions.

  465. If I’m not mistaken, the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints are actually a registered corporate business entity. They do not have non-profit status, and pay full taxes on all their earnings.

    Does anyone have that info they could share with us?

  466. Duh duane I wrote earlier about ‘Child Brides’ and Prophet Warren Jeffs teaching that marrying minor aged girls was approved by God from menses, regardless of the law.

    Actually, the age of menses argument is fairly common among different religious wackos. For the FLDS the “Warren says” part is what seals it.

  467. Here is a list of organizations that can receive tax deductible donations. If you search for all the words “latter day,” you’ll see that no fundamentalist latter day organization exists.

  468. Duane, two people cohabitating, sharing property ownership and having children, in many states, are in fact married with our without any ‘purporting’. Throw in a certificate from the priesthood and some photos of the wedding ceremony that’s labeled “our wedding” and you’ve got yourself a marriage. Witnesses at the wedding ceremony? Bonus.

    I could really care less about not harming any ‘lifestyle’ thing, whatever the heck that means. It’s still polygamy. Most polyamorous people don’t actually live together, just out of practicality. Most people can’t handle communal living for any amount of time and opt to have their own space. Fine, let them be.

    Yes, priesthood ordered arranged marriage, musical beds polygyny is worse, but it’s still the same ole same ole no matter what name you want to call it.

  469. “Does deci duane really believe that if you rape, molest, or have sex with a child who is under the age of consent you are free from any charges once the child”

    The issue that is most troublesome is no complaining witnesses, at least I’m assuming there won’t be any in the FLDS trials, if in fact their will be, then that changes everything.
    So did MJ have a baby? If so and it is Warren’s, then of course he should be prosecuted through legally gotten evidence.
    What you don’t seem to get is what I find appalling is treating all of the many thousands of FLDS members and even Mormon Fundies in general as evil criminals soley as a result of who they are, not what they allegedly did.

  470. As a note to my last post – just because they aren’t eligible to receive tax deductible donations doesn’t mean that the corporation pays taxes on its income.

  471. What you don’t seem to get is what I find appalling is treating all of the many thousands of FLDS members and even Mormon Fundies in general as evil criminals soley as a result of who they are, not what they allegedly did.

    What I find appalling is the stick your head in the sand attitude that the FLDS exhibit. Maybe some of them have no idea the bad things that go on in their group; however I highly doubt it.

    The accessory is no less guilty than the perpetrator.

  472. They did what they did BECAUSE of who they are !

    There is no separating it! Sure their may be some wonderful people in that group, who knows? But COLLECTIVELY they have decided to ignore all the laws they don’t agree with and have raised their children to believe the same way. And therein lies the problem.

    It’s their GROUP MENTALITY .

  473. “On November 20, 2007, after the conviction of Warren Jeffs, attorneys for Jeffs released the following statement: “Mr. Jeffs resigned as President of the Corporation of the President of The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Inc.”[6] This statement does not address his position as prophet of the church, but merely addressed his resignation from his fiduciary post as president of the corporation belonging to the FLDS Church.”

    Gee, looks like a business, acts like a business, walks like a business, talks like a business.

    I guess the FLDS is a business. A business with more than 15 employees, who has religious requirements for its employees, and excersizes the power to take everything from them at any time, for any reason…Hmmm. Nice business.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter_Day_Saints

  474. I mean, dang, defend the Amish or something, duane. Get off defending this group.

    They are not a religion. They are just an abusive group that lies very well and portrays an innocent look with their prairie dresses. If anything I would be more interested in the group at Short Creek for NOT listening to Warren.

  475. “The issue that is most troublesome is no complaining witnesses”

    Yeah, we know duane, they are too busy keeping sweet, trying to hold on to their children , cause God knows, if they did want to leave, we all know they would be REQUIRED BY THEIR PROPHET, to leave the children behind.

    But go ahead, didn’t mean to interrupt you with your defense, what else does Pliggy tell you to say?

  476. Mississippigirl,

    I don’t care what religion they are. There are many different religions which purport to have a G-d given right to do this to women and children. They are not different or special from these other groups, claiming to have a divine right to ignore laws in our country.

    Regardless of what their intent or motivations are, they are all breaking our law. Regardless if they additionally commit other crimes like sexually assaulting children, or simply agree as adults to do it, they are breaking the law.

    Texas has got to decide if they are going to allow this to continue or not. The FLDS is just one of the identified groups flagrantly breaking the law, others include The House of Y-hweh outside of Abilene, and independent Muslim Americans practicing it because Sharia law allows it…again with the claim that their law is higher than ours.

    Polygamy/Bigamy is a crime, a felony, regardless of the religion or gender of the practitioner.

    BTW, Duane, why would we need any complaining witness if both the male and the female have knowingly committed the crime? We arrest, indict, and prosecute people on drug charges in this country every day. Are you telling me the court is required to have a complaining witness in order to prosecute the crime?

    Well I’ve got a complaining witness for you in this case, Duane, TEXAS.

  477. I think if they have the date of birth and the DNA of both parents they do not need a complaining witness. That is probably why the flds are reticent to have their children’s births recorded with the state. Anything to cover up their crimes.

  478. The evil will continue because it is built into the power of the priest hood. By controlling access to the women, they control all the men. By marrying the girls young, they keep them dependent, train them to live within that man’s family structure, and keep some young man from running off with them. It is part and parcel of the whole system and it’s not going to stop until some real serious punishments come down. So far, no one has done time for crimes related to Mormon polygamy that someone would do in another state for the same act.
    And they don’t let the under aged girls go into the hospital to birth.

  479. I heard there were a hundren children given back to the YFZ.

    I say they were given to the YFZ, and not their parents, because my source told me that there were no possitive DNA matches for them with ANY adults on the ranch.

    So it’s very possible that the “Special Team” sent from Austin not only returned the children, even though they had evidence of gross abuse, but that they knowingly returned them [to their abusers] even though they could not be possitively identified as their parents.

    Gee, I wonder when the last time Texas CPS returned any child to someone who could not be identified as their legal gurdian? If my source was right, that means the “Special Austin CPS Team” knowingly handed a hundred children back, not to legal guardians, but to the YFZ LLC. Hmmmm.

  480. Boots,

    Giving a hundred children back to this group of people with no DNA matches , makes me feel really sick inside.

    I can’t comprehend it and I have no idea how they justify it.

  481. I noticed this when I went back and reread the story published at the San Angelo newspaper about the FLDS response brief….
    **********************************
    The FLDS lawyers have asked Walther to grant them a hearing at which they would argue in favor of suppressing evidence gathered during a 2008 raid on the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, preventing its use in the criminal trials of their clients.

    *****
    HAHAHAHHAHA,, they MUST be joking!!!! They had their 4 day hearing in front of the Judge in May!!!

  482. They are really worried about that evidence, huh, deputydog? I would be too if I were them!!

    I hope it all comes out and every single government official that aided and abetted this group is humiliated and ashamed!

    And they should be, right down to their toes.

  483. Me To!!!

  484. Seems Duh duane that your real concerns lie in who’s ox is getting gored before you take it personal. The rest of us see the belief system as the driving force behind the felonious action(s), which you choose to ignore. The tenet teaching on the ‘Root of Ham’ which places the belief that all black persons are ‘Evil’ and minions of Satan denies this racial group their Constitutional Rights as American citizens. Do you deny that FLDS member’s believe that black Americans as a race are under Satan’s control? Yeah I know Duh duane you’re basically an agnostic so you don’t delve into anyone’s individual religious beliefs and think everyone holds,”Freedom of Religion”. If someones by their religious beliefs commits a felony then the legal consequences is not a valid legal argument against violating the law, as in Reynolds vs. The United States, whether you like this law or not.

    Duh duane you know the FLDS Church does not allow any black American members and teaches the tenet of the,”Root of Ham” which violates Civil Rights laws, yet you defend every FLDS members belief system which teaches said civil violation. So which way is it Equal Justice Under the Law, Civil Rights for Everyone or your exclusionary rule about don’t condemn all FLDS members as violators.See Duh duane you’re not in a racial minority so this really isn’t a problem that effects you, Right?

  485. Boots said this on July 15, 2009 at 2:04 PM
    Gee, I wonder when the last time Texas CPS returned any child to someone who could not be identified as their legal gurdian? If my source was right, that means the “Special Austin CPS Team” knowingly handed a hundred children back, not to legal guardians, but to the YFZ LLC. Hmmmm.

    REPLY: People, People! In every family-related court and agency in the land, and with every credible psychologist involved, the desire of the child carries great weight in determining the interest of the child, and every one of those children desired to be with their faith, being faithful children. Fact is, nearly ALL of them are also with their mother, if not with a father who has willing absented himself in order to repent of his sins, instead of being a detriment to the interest and safety of the children. So it was handled right.

  486. Betty said this on July 15, 2009 at 2:00 PM
    The evil will continue because it is built into the power of the priest hood. By controlling access to the women, they control all the men. By marrying the girls young, they keep them dependent, train them to live within that man’s family structure, and keep some young man from running off with them. It is part and parcel of the whole system and it’s not going to stop until some real serious punishments come down. So far, no one has done time for crimes related to Mormon polygamy that someone would do in another state for the same act. And they don’t let the under aged girls go into the hospital to birth.

    REPLY: No hospital to birth, in hospitals where accidental and even deliberate death is ecidemic. Can’t blame them one bit! There is no place like home…There is no place like home…Especially in the FLDS Church, where more and more the evil is shut out. That is the purpose and very nature of the culture.

  487. …in hospitals where…death is EPIDEMIC.

  488. Uh, Anonymous 2:52?

    That is NOT CORRECT . Many of the children DID NOT want to go back and had to by physically encouraged to go back to the very men & women that arrived to pick them up. Their wishes and desires had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with whether they were returned or not.

    Please do your research. Being made to obey at the risk of your family being cast out IS NOT desiring to be with your faith. And if they are with their mothers, then the DNA would have matched.

    But you must live in some fantasy world that WJ made up for you.

    It was handled HORRIBLY , AT THE COST OF THE CHILDREN.

  489. “Especially in the FLDS Church, where more and more the evil is shut out.”

    You meant ” where more and more evil is shut in!

    You know, don’t tell, keep sweet, you must need more training, do you want your family to pay the price for your disobedience?

    Do any of these things sound familiar?

  490. Boots said this on July 15, 2009 at 1:13 PM
    BTW, Duane, why would we need any complaining witness if both the male and the female have knowingly committed the crime? We arrest, indict, and prosecute people on drug charges in this country every day. Are you telling me the court is required to have a complaining witness in order to prosecute the crime?

    Well I’ve got a complaining witness for you in this case, Duane, TEXAS.

    REPLY: Having accusers or “complaining witnesses” never equates to the existence of a crime. Indeed, most complainers are more guilty than their victim they’re accusing, similar to the entire community that was stoning the prostitute, and Jesus asked them all: “Who of you is without sin, cast the first stone”. No stones were cast. Indeed, later they even said to Jesus what you are saying today: “We have a law…We have a law”, and Jesus replied: None of you are keepers of the law.

  491. Okay Anonymous/Curious, Onthestreet how did you get back on this blog, you were banned???

  492. Anon 3:06,

    “Having accusers or “complaining witnesses” never equates to the existence of a crime. Indeed, most complainers are more guilty than their victim they’re accusing…”

    I think that is also the official stance in Saudi Arabia, where they sentence women to lashes for the “crime” of being gang raped.

    Great crowd you run with.

    I think you’ll find our system of justice a bit different than what you’re obviously used to.

    Welcome to Texas

  493. Hey Anon 3:06,

    You also forget that there were many CPS workers who saw with their own eyes, children crying and begging NOT to be made to go back.

    What exactly makes you think they won’t decide to come forward and share that information with the Texas people?

  494. Signed into law just 2 months ago. Thank you Governor Perry!

    http://www.rcfp.org/newsitems/index.php?i=10754

  495. “Indeed, most complainers are more guilty than their victim they’re accusing”

    We are not complaining, your mistaken. We are and will show the public that what you see is not what you get with the FLDS.

    Comes all back to that “lying for the lord” business while you “bleed the beast”

    They MAY want to try- “Say what you do, and Do what you Say.

    Keeps you out of trouble it does. As long as what you do and say are within the preimeters of the law.

  496. excuse me, I meant “perimeters of the law.”

  497. Mississippi Girl, I think you mean “parameters” of the law. 😉

  498. yes, I did 🙂 thank you Rebeckah!

  499. mississippigirl,

    I am always so amazed when posting in the heat of the moment, how my typos resemble those someone with poor spelling skills might make.

    There’s that and the fact that I’m too old to be on Ritalin.

    Spell check is my friend;)

  500. heeheehee.. I feel the same. Always thought I was a good speller until I had to spell! 🙂

  501. WOW, no news in Utah newspapers about Tony Alamo trial,,, ???

  502. Deseret News has Tony Alamo stories. Didn’t see any at SLT.

  503. really I just checked deseret news, didn’t find anything?

  504. Not all births need the hospital. But the dictations of Warren Jeffs includes discussion of keeping an under aged mother out of the hospital even though the FLDS midwife recommended getting a doctor or hospital.

    The evil is shut inside with you, honey.

  505. Boots wrote “If my source was right, that means the “Special Austin CPS Team” knowingly handed a hundred children back, not to legal guardians, but to the YFZ LLC.”

    It was brought up to the court that there were children who were not with either parent, but the Judge said to put them back where they were picked up. Amazing! The Judge could have allowed them to wait another week for the DNA and figured out for sure if a parent was picking them up, but no. The kdis went back.

  506. Anon wrote “No hospital to birth, in hospitals where accidental and even deliberate death is ecidemic.”

    They are lying to you about the outside. Most hospitals are excellent, especially with something common place like birthing. Deliberate death in hospitals is exceedingly rare and almost always prosecuted. What a strange idea you have about the world at large.

    And it’s “epidemic”.

  507. Evil shut out, or evil shut in?

    As an evangelical Christian, this business of shutting oneself away from the world is one I’ve considered at length. I’ve known people who’ve home-schooled or sent their kids to religious schools to try to keep them safe from secular influences. I know families whose lives revolve around their church, so that there is never any unscheduled time among the unchurched masses. But neither idea ever appealed. I felt it was better to teach my kids from a young age to be “in the world but not of the world.”

    I’ve been musing recently on the idea that one of my more significant Christian duties is to see others as they would be if the world hadn’t crippled or soured them. Because that is how I want God to see me, and I think I’m obliged to extend the same courtesy I want for myself to others.

    But to do this or any other kind of ministry requires being out in the world among flawed people. And it’s far harder to extend grace to others than to refrain from showing one’s ankles. I think that people who shut themselves up behind a wall to ponder their superior morality are “like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean.”

  508. Betty, have you ever known anyone ‘deliberately’ killed at a hospital?

    Me neither.

  509. Well, Judge Walthers had no jurisdiction to keep the children after the SCOT ruled. She did hold them over the weekend. But each adult had to sign and show identification at the shelters to pick children up.

  510. I read in Warren’s dictations where a girl could of died, she was in hard labor for 72hrs, and even the midwife Sally was very afraid.
    Had that child been in a hospital,, she wouldn;t have had to suffer that long.

  511. “I am always so amazed when posting in the heat of the moment, how my typos resemble those someone with poor spelling skills might make.”

    Me too, so I hope I didn’t offend. I was feeling a bit whimsical when I made that post but wasn’t trying to be critical or mean. Feel free to zing my spelling too, Mississippi Girl. 😀

  512. DD,
    That’s exactly when the invisible powers that be, at the top of Texas CPS food chain, should have raised holy you-know-what, and demanded they have proof of parentage before giving them to ANYONE.

    Nobody can tell me they wouldn’t have had a case to hold those children until confirmations could be made. They dumped those poor kids like trash.

    Like I told someone in Eldorado who said, “Well at least we’ve planted some seeds, right?

    Texas took those children. Then they looked them in the eyes and said, “We know you’re abused. We don’t care. Go back home and endure it”.

    Now, what makes you think they would ever call YOU for help again?

    Next question? How many of the children who had to be pushed across the room back to their abusers, as they begged not to have to go, were not even the biological children of those abusers?

  513. Boots, Im on your side. A district court judge made the right decision in keeping the children. Between the children being released and the status hearing on each child, someone, NOT local or state CPS officals made a decision to STOP! They are assholes for doing it, and yes, many of the children at that compound were NOT with their biological parents.

  514. Greetings, The only “deliberate” deaths I’ve heard of in hospitals are committed by murders who are prosecuted upon discovery. While some people are “allowed” to die rather than suffer through invasive and most-likely fruitless extreme measures to prolong their lives, I don’t see that as being any different than Warren recommending that one of his congregation avoid surgery to repair a blocked artery. It’s a personal choice regarding quality of life. I agree with Betty, someone has been telling people lies about life out in the real world.

  515. I wrote Govenor Perry and told him what an ass he was making Big Boy statements and then tucking his head between his butt cheeks and letting go of the situation… Do you think it did any good?
    Perry is in it for Perry!!

  516. By the way boots, they aren’t invisible powers.. They are HIGHER UP politicians!!! People like Hatch, Mueller, Leavitt, even Harry Reid!

  517. The accessory is no less guilty than the perpetrator.
    ======================================================
    Actually accessory is inflamatory and not entirely descriptive. A better phrase would be possible witness. If you want to change the law making every adult mandatory reporters to potential child abuse I urge you to write to your congressman.

  518. They did what they did BECAUSE of who they are !

    There is no separating it! Sure their may be some wonderful people in that group, who knows? But COLLECTIVELY they have decided to ignore all the laws they don’t agree with and have raised their children to believe the same way. And therein lies the problem.
    ===============================================================
    “Adlai Stephenson once said that ‘guilt is personal and, I might add, not communal.’ Our Court has held many times that mere presence at a particular place is not sufficient to establish participation in a particular act….

  519. I had great respect for Charles Childress the Head Attorney chosen for Cps in this Case . When he resigned , I knew then, something was Bad wrong.
    What I don’t understand is this. Charles Childress know the law, front and back and in between. Even though he resigned, why didn’t he keep fighting to protect those children.
    Natalie Malonis did!! She fought, till there wasn’t anything left. Why didn’t Charles Childress put up a fight for those children????
    Few Attorneys have the integrity to put their job on the line. But the ones who do,, like Natalie Malonis,,, I deeply respect!

  520. When someone condones the criminal act, supports the criminal act, contributes to the criminal acts, aids in hiding the criminal act, and does nothing to stop or report the criminal act they are accessories to the criminal act. Every adult member of the FLDS do all the above things.

  521. If someone robs a bank,and they have a driver in the car waiting, and the robber gets in the car and they are caught,, the driver is charged as an accessory to the crime!

  522. Every Adult on that ranch knew Warren Jeffs was on the Most Wanted list. they were harboring a criminal!

  523. Not only that, but member participated in illegal acts by allowing underage marriages to take place.

  524. Yes, guilt is personal and is based on one’s personal acts. If a woman sewed a wedding dress for a 12 year old bride and participated in the “wedding ceremony” it is her acts taht are criminal. Not her association or being part of a group.

  525. LadySadie,

    “When someone condones the criminal act, supports the criminal act, contributes to the criminal acts, aids in hiding the criminal act, and does nothing to stop or report the criminal act they are accessories to the criminal act”.

    So um, what do you think of Shurtleff?

    Anyone besides me wonder why NO FLDS were charged with harboring WJ, not even Naomi, who was right there in the RED Escalade with him?

  526. WSJ was convicted of accomplice rape. Any parent, stepparent, bishop, etc. who used their position of authority to encourage a child into a sexual relationship with an adult would be guilty of the same.

  527. Boots, a better question would be why no Federal charges were preferred, since they were in Nevada when captured.

    (It drives me nuts.)

  528. So um, where are the women? Why has the Texas AG not sought indictments of the FLDS women?

    My sources tell me that the reason is they are afraid of the PR implications of showing the CareBear colored mothers in cuffs.

    Since when is this a good reason not to prosecute a criminal?

    I think those ladies would look great in orange, or black and white stripes…especially with silver cuffs.

  529. Greetings from New York,

    Gee, maybe because we have MEN at very high levels of our government, who are looking forward to legally owning their own concubines some day?

  530. Big breath as I sing my little song….

    Corruption
    Corruption
    Corruption….

    The only place I have found these lyrics in Texas, so far, is at the top of CPS. If we don’t take these guys down it will spread.

  531. Nah, Boots. I’m married to a man and he doesn’t seem to have any interest in concubines. And my dear friends Chemist, Stamp, and CAJim (men all) have no use for this group. I think men are at least as monogamous as women.

    I think the real problem is that Federal prosecutors in the west are drawn from the western states, and there is a real ambivalence in many places in the west about polygamy.

    But not in Texas, praise God.

  532. Giving a hundred children back to this group of people with no DNA matches , makes me feel really sick inside.

    I can’t comprehend it and I have no idea how they justify it.
    =============================================================
    I dunno. According to Texas’s own Constitution the state had no right taking the children in the first place. I would right to the Texas legistive urging DNA testing for all parents and children residing in Texas to make sure no child is with the wrong person.

  533. Greetings from New York said this on July 15, 2009 at 4:58 PM
    Betty, have you ever known anyone ‘deliberately’ killed at a hospital? Me neither.

    REPLY:

    Hospital killings spark health reform | World news | guardian.co.uk
    A recent case linking a nurse with the murder of 40 patients has prompted an urgent review of Hungary’s health system, says Kate Connolly in Budapest.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/…/worlddispatch.kateconnolly

    NYTimes take on the alleged hospital killings. Louisiana Doctor Said to Have Faced Chaos – New York Times: “Mr. Simmons said that evacuating patients from …
    joefromla.blogspot.com/…/nytimes-take-on-alleged-hospital.html

    Guilty Plea Expected in Hospital Killings – Los Angeles Times
    COLUMBUS, Ohio — A former doctor will plead guilty today to federal charges in the deaths of three patients at a veterans hospital in New York state, …
    articles.latimes.com/2000/sep/06/news/mn-16272

  534. Next question? How many of the children who had to be pushed across the room back to their parents, as they begged not to have to go, were not entirely sure by the state of Texas of even being the biological children of those parents?
    =============================================================
    Sounds like a pretty classic case of Stockholm Syndrome. I imagine that children would be even more vulnerable to this condition then adults.

  535. The problems that give you all such pause for concern over the FLDS stem from a corrupt conscience. Your upbringing, with all the violence and drugs and even shootings in your schools, and even murder blasted before your children every day on television, from the cradle to the grave, is very grave indeed. So you’re stuck in the monkey-mind state of always grasping for corruption, you see, because it is part of you.

    This is why you have fallen to the depths of redefining the ancient and eternal system of marriage as rape, and sacred religious consecrations as stealing, and family reassigments into safer and more wholesome environments as adultery, and the teaching of children the Gospel of the ancients as child-abuse.

    It is all part of your makeup, of who and what you’ve become. So you are caught in your own sins and corruptions, while equating them to the celestial lifestyle of the prophets, and to Adam’s transgression, who merely fell from heaven to give you, His spirit children life, that man might be.

  536. Actually, I read an article in Deseret news last week. Seems hopsitals in utah have killed 84 people the last year!!! EEEK!!! Dont get sick in Utah!!!

  537. I think those ladies would look great in orange, or black and white stripes…especially with silver cuffs.
    =====================================================
    Then the state of Texas can reassign their children. Wait a minute… I thought we disapproved of that.

  538. OH Shut the hell up Anonymous!! My kids never had any killings in their schools, and their television was monteried. Both my children got an excellant education, and went to college. You Dim Wit, marriage is defined biblically as One Man and One wife!!!
    In fact,,, there is scripture that says, An apostle, prophet, shall be a MAN OF BUT ONE WIFE!!!
    God never changed his mind, Joseph Smith was OUT OF HIS MIND!

  539. Alinusara what are you talking about?

  540. You Dim Wit, marriage is defined biblically as One Man and One wife!!!
    In fact,,, there is scripture that says, An apostle, prophet, shall be a MAN OF BUT ONE WIFE!!!
    God never changed his mind, Joseph Smith was OUT OF HIS MIND!
    ==========================================================
    If it says that it has to be somewhere in the New Testament. Can you kindly show us please?

  541. chemist, boots, rattle – i sent my masterpiece to you last night. If you did not get it let me know. I have copied chemist’s email (I’m a chemist too): chemist1953@gmail.com
    hhg

  542. I just finished Jason Williams book. In some ways I think that it is the most chilling look at the FLDS because he is so relentlessly optimistic and cheerful and because he was not sexually abused, only psychologically raped by Warren Jeffs. I have avoided using the word rape in these chat rooms because often folks will sign on and rant about baptist buses, and SANE exams, etc.
    The message one gets is that the FLDS intends to fight everything to the bitter end because they have learned that people give up and eventually return the children, drop the charges, and say they believe that they will no longer have child brides, etc.

  543. Hey there deputydog…don’t let anonymous gear you up. All that pompous-religio-blather amounts to a public-self-stroking by someone not bright enough to think of a screen-name.

    Let ’em go play with the magical unicorns in their head ~~ la la. 😉

    (Texas Mom gives DD a hug)

  544. 1timothy 3:2 A Bishop or Elder then must be blameless, the husband of but ONE wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour. given to hospitality, apt to teach.

    1timothy 3:12 Let the deacons (elders) be the husband’s of but one wife, ruling their children and their houses well.

  545. Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall become ONE flesh.

  546. Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and mother and shall cleave unto his wife and they shall become ONE flesh.

  547. Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

    This is not the FLDS way…..

    Corinthians 7.32-34 He that is unmarried is careful for the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord:
    but he that is married is careful for the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and is divided. So also the woman that is unmarried and the virgin is careful for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married is careful for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

  548. If the prophet’s revelations about marriage were correct the first time why do they need reassignments? If everything is so wonderful in the FLDS, why do children need to be moved to more ‘wholesome’ environments?

  549. GFNY wrote “Betty, have you ever known anyone ‘deliberately’ killed at a hospital?”

    Well, there was the geriatric nurse who helped some old folks along, and was prosecuted for murder. And there was Kevorkian, ditto. Other than , that, no. I know of danged fee accidental murders, either.

  550. “Hey there deputydog…don’t let anonymous gear you up. All that pompous-religio-blather amounts to a public-self-stroking by someone not bright enough to think of a screen-name.”

    I think it’s someone whose screen name has already been banned.

  551. Greetings,

    Darlin’, I did not mean all men, not by any stretch of the imagination. I meant men with certain obvious proclivities to completely overlook the crime of polygamy.

    You’re right. That arrow points to the American West.

    Believe me, for the first year I spoke to victims half the time I thought they might be nuts. They were so sure of a conspiracy among powerful men in this country, to ignore the victims and protect the crime…

    It has been 5 years now and I no longer even remotely question their mental health.

    Believe me, I know I often ramble on, but we have learned that if you give anyone the facts all at once…they are going to look at you like you are a nutt. The things I actually hold back on saying…sheesh, would probably curl yer hair.

  552. Where did polygamy come from?

    Genesis 4:19 Lamech married two women. Lamech was not from the righteous lineage of Seth, but from the linage of Cain the murderer cursed of God.

  553. hellohellogoodbye: I do have your document and will review it when I have more time. From a fellow practictioner.

  554. God never condoned polygamy, and it pissed him off so bad that in Leviticus 18 he had to SPELL out to stupid people that they couldn’t DO IT!

  555. “Now, what makes you think they would ever call YOU for help again?

    Next question? How many of the children who had to be pushed across the room back to their abusers, as they begged not to have to go, were not even the biological children of those abusers?”

    When I was 10 when I was removed from my father’s care with bruises on 70% of my body. I was taken to the hospital to be tested for kidney damage. I was placed in an emergency foster home (nice people, I felt totally out of place) and then in a longer term foster home (also nice people, still felt horribly out of place) and then, about 4 days after being removed, I was sent back home to my father. I never let anyone know about my home situation again. I had learned very clearly that they didn’t really want to know, didn’t really want to do anything to protect me or my brother or sister.

    I imagine this gives you some idea of how I suspect any child who wasn’t in a good situation at the YFZ actually feels about having been returned. I loved my father too, but I didn’t love being frightened of him.

  556. Thank you, Rebeckah, I know that was hard to share.

    That’s why I had to point it out to them; they shouldn’t be waiting by the phone. You were abused and sent back to your abuser. Someone looked you in the eyes as a girl and said the same thing I said before, “We know you are abused. We don’t care. Go back home and endure it”.

    I look at what happened to the YFZ children and feel like it was a spiritual Alamo.

    Now, all we have to do, as Texans, is pull a publice relations San Jacinto out of our you-know-whats.

    Texas is better than this.

  557. From the Utah Department of Commerce web site:

    CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE FUNDAMENTALIST CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS INC.

    Corporation – Sole (this means a FOR profit corporation as opposed to being set up as a Nonprofit Corporation)

    Registered Agent – Boyd L. Knudson

    It was first registered in Utah on 02/06/1991

    Sole Corporations are similar to Sole Proprietorships, but the business is incorporated making it a legal entity existing separate from the owner. They have a Charter or Articles of Incorporation. Utah does not allow a Sole Corporation to be a nonprofit entity. A nonprofit corporation in Utah (whether or not they are an IRS tax-exempt charity) must be incorporated as a nonprofit corporation with the state and have at least 3 directors on the board. But a Sole Corporation is just that, owned by a sole person. So, does that mean that Boyd Knudson is running the FLDS?

    The other arm of the FLDS is the CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDING BISHOP OF THE FUNDAMENTALIST CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS is also a Sole Corporation with Boyd Knudson listed as the registered agent. It was first registered with the state of Utah on 12/15/1997.

  558. Boyd Knudson was kicked out.

  559. Rulon Jeffs who is Dead still owns property in Salt Lake and colorado city.

  560. Fred Jessop still owns property and land in CC and he died several years ago. But he is still the owner.

  561. Anon 9:31,

    THANK YOU!

    I knew it was a business. So we have a business with loyal followers, who are willing to break U.S. laws, claiming the protection of religion.

    The business goes out and seeks profit, which is controlled by the prophet. Then the prophet/president also seeks tithes from the company’s followers.

    More things that make you go Hmmmmm.

  562. Actually, fokes, Adam was the first man, as we all know, and the first polygamist, to set the stage for all the world’s ancient religions to follow after, which they have done. Broke the word down” A-Dam, and what is a damsel, see? Then, the Hebrew for Adam is “Adamdam”. Dam! Two Dams! OMG! Polygamy.

    Now, consider this: Is not God our Father the very father of us all? One Father, right? And how many mothers? There are MILLIONS of mothers bearing this man’s children today, bearing all of mankind. See? Polygamy is universal. We are ALL polygamists, the children of one Father, are we not? We just have different mothers, and of course earthly fathers besides our one Father.

    Polygamy therefore is the only marriage system on this earth, and on any other earth or star, or system of stars. It is universal.

  563. If you want to change the law making every adult mandatory reporters to potential child abuse I urge you to write to your congressman.

    Alinusara10 said this on July 15, 2009 at 5:22 PM

    Alinusara I don’t know where in the world you live, but in the state where I live it IS ALREADY the law that every adult is a mandatory reporter of suspected child abuse. Does every adult report it – Hell no, but by law they are supposed to.

  564. Oh go home, Street.

    Nobody cares about your wacko delusions.

    BTW, your “Hebrew” sucks.

  565. “Actually, fokes, Adam was the first man, as we all know, and the first polygamist…”

    No, Street, we don’t “all know” that. Some of us, possibly even a lot of us, don’t “know” (or believe in the slightest) that there ever was an Adam and/or Eve. As for him being a polygamist (or, let’s use the proper term for your chauvanistic desires “polygynist”) that’s a complete fantasy. No literature or religious tradition has ever claimed that. As far as I know, not even Joseph Smith, the master con man and con artist, claimed that one.

  566. So more lying for the lord. Rulon Jeffs – dead for almost 7 years – still has property registered in his name in SLC. Fred Jessop – dead for 4 years – still has property registered in his name in Hildale. Boyd Knudson – DD said he was kicked out of the FLDS – is the registered agent for both of the FLDS Utah corporations.

    This doesn’t sound like laziness in updating legal records or just sloppiness to me. It reeks of an intentional cover up and RICO violations!

  567. Ahh, you want EVIDENCE? Faith is the EVIDENCE of things not seen. There is your evidence…First, you have to come to a faith, and without that you are simply lost. It is the first principle of the Gospel. You can go no further without that SUBSTANCE, something to grasp hold of.

  568. Ahh, you want EVIDENCE? Faith is the EVIDENCE of things not seen. Without that, you are simple lost, for it is the first principle of the Gospel. Before you can go any further, you must come to that substance, something to grasp hold of.

  569. Uh oh, Utah Senator not happy with the Utah Attorney General. Here is the first part of the article.

    Agency feud may hamper Utah fraud probes
    Legislature » A state senator may call for an audit

    By Robert Gehrke

    The Salt Lake Tribune

    A Utah state senator says the Legislature might need to step in to determine if a fracture between two state agencies is hampering investigation and prosecution of consumer scams.

    Citing unanswered questions surrounding the probe of accused Ponzi scheme mastermind Rick Koerber, Sen. Steve Urquhart said there appears to be a breakdown in coordination between the offices of Attorney General Mark Shurtleff and Commerce Director Francine Giani.

    “Utah has a fraud problem and to get after that we need the Department of Commerce and the Attorney General’s office to work hand-in-hand. Instead, they seem to be working tooth-to-jowl,” Urquhart told The Tribune .

    He suggested the possibility of a legislative auditor general examination of the decisions made by Shurtleff in the Koerber case and others.

    Koerber stands charged with three counts of federal felony wire fraud, mail fraud and tax evasion after the Commerce Department, frustrated by its dealings with the Attorney General, took the case to U.S. Attorney for Utah Brett Tolman.

    Shurtleff, who met with Koerber in late 2007 at the urging of state Rep. Carl Wimmer, R-Herriman, has said the Commerce Department didn’t provide enough evidence to support charges.

    Urquhart, though, claims that Commerce collected 20 boxes of evidence against Koerber, which it provided to the federal investigators, although he would not say where he learned that information.

    <A HREF="http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12846451&quot;

  570. OOPS on the link above.

  571. Try this link

  572. The 2 original FLDS corporations are both Sole Corporations.

    Sole Corporation = One Man Rule!

  573. Betty said: “I think it’s someone whose screen name has already been banned.”

    Yes…there is something *curiously* *street* preacher about the posts….which frankly, always read like blah, blah, yackity-smackity.

    http://www.flamewarriors.com/warriorshtm/deacon.htm

  574. I LOVE that site! Thanks. There’s even a title for Deb lee; Bliss Ninny. Although it’s scary to think there are more of them.

  575. 1timothy 3:2 A Bishop or Elder then must be blameless, the husband of but ONE wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour. given to hospitality, apt to teach.

    1timothy 3:12 Let the deacons (elders) be the husband’s of but one wife, ruling their children and their houses well.
    =========================================================
    Before I forget thanks! I may get bored and look up what Jesus said about when you enter heaven and have more then one wife which one is consider the real one. I may look up what Paul said about marriage. The way I phrased the Jesus question is not entirely accurate; it’s been a few years since I read it in Sunday School.

  576. Betty, I liked the ‘troglodytes’, I have met many FLDS trogs in the past year. Some are more scary than others, some where more hairy than others but they all love existing in a cave out in the remote parts of Our Land.

  577. “I may get bored and look up what Jesus said about when you enter heaven and have more then one wife which one is consider the real one.”

    I’m all ears.

  578. LOL, Bliss Ninny sounds like a good one for MA Matriarch aka Ruby Tuesday too. 😉

    Alin, as I recall what Jesus said about people marrying in heaven is that they would be as the angels were with no marrying or being given in marriage. The clear implication is that the eternal Paradise does not include marital relations. I guess tha’s why I like this song so much: (warning, some religious folk might find it a bit offensive…)

  579. Alinusara obviously has not been to bible study in awhile. It was not a man with many wives that they asked about in heaven. It was a WIFE with many husbands. Also, please note, she only married again after her husband was dead.

    Matthew 22:23-30
    That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 24″Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and have children for him. 25Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27Finally, the woman died. 28Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”

    29Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 30

  580. That was fun, Rebeckah.

  581. Thank you, Betty, I love those guys’ songs. 😀

  582. Hey there, glad you liked the Flame Warriors website. I found it years ago when on a forum that originated in the UK. There was an ongoing battle between an Anglican minister and a Darwinist professor — it was brilliant. A truly masterful and witty debate between two extremely erudite persons.

    I’d like to see that occur with the FLDS vs a Secular Law
    Representative… with the caveat that the FLDS may not use the words Nazi or Baptist buses. ha!

    RE: Flame warriors site: It takes a moment to read through all the characters, but some of the descriptions are so spot-on it’s worth the time.

    Bliss Ninny (bwahhaa) yes, very apt.

    Happy Day to All ~

  583. Hellohellogoodbye, I looked at your document and made some changes… LOVED IT. I was going to drop it off for you at the Kindred Spirits clubhouse, but it was closed for that darn maintenance stuff. So I gave a copy to a mutual friend and hopefully you’ll get it soon.

  584. Bliss Ninny… I love it.

    When “Street” starts with his irrational Biblical etymology, he reminds me of the dotty Victorians who used Trithemius ciphers to prove that Francis Bacon wrote Shakespeare’s plays and sonnets. I give you the incomparable P.G. Wodehouse’s interpretation, from ‘The Reverent Wooing of Archibald,’ from “Mr. Mulliner Speaking”:

    “Scooping him up and bearing him off into the recesses of the west wing, she wedged him into a corner of a settee and began to tell him all about the remarkable discovery which had been made by applying the Plain Cipher to Milton’s well-known Epitaph on Shakespeare…

    “’As in the Plays and Sonnets,’ said the aunt, ‘we substitute the name equivalents of the figure totals.’

    “’We do what?’

    “’Substitute the name equivalents of the figure totals.’

    “’The which?’

    “’The figure totals.’

    “’All right,’ said Archibald. ‘Let it go. I daresay you know best.’

    “The aunt inflated her lungs.

    “’These figure totals,’ she said, ‘are always taken out in the Plain Cipher, A equaling one to Z equals twenty-four. The names are counted in the same way. A capital letter with the figures indicates an occasional variation in the Name Count. For instance, A equals twenty-seven, B twenty-eight, until K equals ten is reached, when K, instead of ten, becomes one, and T instead of nineteen, is one, and R or Reverse, and so on, until A equals twenty-four is reached. The short or single Digit is not used here. Reading the Epitaph in the light of the Cipher, it becomes: “What need Verulam for Shakespeare? Francis Bacon England’s King be hid under a W. Shakespeare? William Shakespeare. Fame, what needst Francis Tudor, King of England? Francis. Francis W. Shakespeare. For Francis thy William Shakespeare hath England’s King took W. Shakespeare. Then thou our W. Shakespeare Francis Tudor bereaving Francis Bacon Francis Tudor such a tomb William Shakespeare.” ‘

    “The speech to which he had been listening was unusually lucid and simple for a Baconian, yet Archibald, his eye catching a battle-axe that hung on the wall, could not but stifle a wistful sigh…”

  585. Greetings,

    LMAO!

    Down here in Texas we just call it “word salad”.

  586. HAHAAH Greetings, thanks for making me laugh!

  587. Shurtleff raises about $105,000 in Senate campaign
    July 16th, 2009 @ 5:38pm
    SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — A campaign finance report shows the main challenger to Republican U.S. Sen. Bob Bennett, who is running for a fourth term in office, has raised about $105,000.

    The campaign of Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff, also a Republican, released a draft report Wednesday saying he has spent about $860 and has $23,000 in debt.

    Shurtleff has said he will need to raise up to $1.5 million for the race.

    Bennett has raised more than $700,000 in the past three months, leaving him with more than $900,000 in cash on hand.
    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=7190160

    **************’
    WOW, Shurtleff has spent a Whooping $860 bucks on his campaign so far,,, BWHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

  588. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2009/07/16/hearstmagfamily322632.DTL

    OMG!

    I can’t believe I missed this when first printed and I wonder how she is doing and if anyone is helping her keep her children?

    Can’t someone ask for political asylem for them in the U.S., under the grounds they will be forced into the illegal practice of polygamy if given to their father in Canada???

  589. Boots, this is a reprint from a year ago.. She got custody of her children!!

  590. HHG: I also reviewed and made some changes in your document. The revised copy was sent to you as an email.

  591. Oh thank G-d! I knew it was old, and a reprint, I just didn’t know if she ever got help!

    I am SO relieved :::big exhale:::

    Thank you for the info.

    Also, LadySadie, I’ll see what I can do about T-shirts, but unless I have them made adozen at a time they are outragously expensive, and a huge out of pocket expense I just can’t afford right now.

    Leave it to me to start a non-profit during a depression;)

  592. yw boots,, 🙂

  593. “yw”?

  594. yw=You’re welcome

    Although yw could be Yahweh (maybe DD thinks you’re God), but I suspect it’s the former.

  595. lol, y’know, like I said….I started a non-profit during a depression, what do you people expect, someone sharp?

  596. HAHAHA Ron, nope,, just Your Welcome!

  597. Hey Boots,

    Two years ago, the word got out among my daughter’s teachers that I was a graphic designer, and I now have the *pleasure* 😉 of being designated The All School T-shirt designer — get at least one request a month.

    This is the deal — I have a VERY good local source, for a base order of 24 — the t-shirts are only $7.00 each. (that’s 2-3 colors depending on how I design the overlays on a shirt of any color you choose)

    If you want to take a test sampling of how many folks would like to pay for a t-shirt, I’d be happy to pull it together. I kinda prefer the phrase “Polygamy is Abuse” as opposed to the other, but it’s certainly your call.

    Lemme know ~ TxMom

  598. Awww…thank you so very much, Txmom! I’ve already got one graphic designer volunteer and she did do the design for the shirts. The back reads: Polygamy is Abuse TripleAP.org. But I will definitely take you up on that great rate when I can order them! And frankly she’s been sorta busy with a personal matter lately.

    I really cannot afford to do an order right now, seriously I’m just hoping someone will donate a McDonalds card sometime, so I don’t have to spend $1.20 twice a day to eat while I’m on the road doing this stuff, that’s more miles I can do if I save it for the tank;)

    It’s not all bad, though, I’ve dropped 40 pounds since coming home to Texas last September:)

    Matter of fact I’m sitting here trying to come up with the right words to put on the AAAP site to let people know how much I need help.

    Something like “Tip the activist”? “Feed the activist”? “Buy a spare tire for the activist”? LMAO…I’m not exactly good with the whole begging for help thing….sounds too much like whining when I see other sites doing it.

  599. The whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part, and degrading submissions on the other. Our children see this, and learn to imitate it.
    Thomas Jefferson

    This probably applies to the FLDS vision of male/female relationships as well.

  600. hey, mississippigirl, drop me a line at , have a question for you.

  601. HHGB & Greetings,

    I love both y’alls posts. I’ve never read that Jefferson quote but am so glad to see it. Thank you! I’ve been drawing the slavery correlation forever now.

    I told one blogger, when he said he could not be convinced all polygamous relationships were inherently abusive, “Neither can you convince me, sir, that all slave owner relationships were inherently abusive. As a matter of fact I have great historical proof this was not the case, look at Mr. Jefferson! I believe the legalization of slavery did lead to a hotbed of horrific abuse cases, though. In light of this, do you think since that is true, we should have simply regulated the treatment of slaves in this country, rather than making their ownership illegal?”

    There is also the cemetery on a back country road here in Texas I visited not long ago [Yes, I really DO love cemeteries]. There were slave graves, and some of the markers were for infants. That clued me in right there that this particular slave owner had more compassion on his slaves when they lost a baby than the FLDS Priesthood in Colorado City do when their concubines lose one.

  602. Boots, how about “Will activate for spare change.”? 😉

  603. Hey I like that one, too!

  604. Thanks for the kind words, Boots. I post so much so you have the pleasure of seeing my sweet face on the right side of this page.

    I think all master-slave relationships—including that of Jefferson and Sally Hemings, whatever it actually was—are abusive because of the imbalance of power. If the slaveholder wanted equality, he would free the slave (as Jefferson did not do with Hemings).

    The same is true of every polygamous relationship. Once the status of wife has been adulterated, the holders of that role have forfeited their power in the marriage.

    I’m off to bed. Night, all.

  605. I couldn’t have said it better than that.

    Night night, sugar!

  606. LadieSadie,

    I sent you an email 🙂 !

  607. I live less than an hour from Monticello. It is a subject of hot debate amongst the FFV, but I think anyone who is a serious historian believes that it is true. Lacking original DNA of both parties to test with, it is impossible to completely lay it to rest. However, it has been proven without a doubt that the father of one of Sally’s children was….er…..a close relative of Jefferson. Here’s a quote:
    “That a Jefferson-Hemings relationship could be neither refuted nor substantiated was challenged in 1998 by the results of DNA tests conducted by Dr. Eugene Foster and a team of geneticists. The study – which tested Y-chromosomal DNA samples from male-line descendants of Field Jefferson (Thomas Jefferson’s uncle), John Carr (grandfather of Jefferson’s Carr nephews), Eston Hemings, and Thomas C. Woodson – indicated a genetic link between the Jefferson and Hemings descendants. The results of the study established that an individual carrying the male Jefferson Y chromosome fathered Eston Hemings (born 1808), the last known child born to Sally Hemings. There were approximately 25 adult male Jeffersons who carried this chromosome living in Virginia at that time, and a few of them are known to have visited Monticello. The study’s authors, however, said “the simplest and most probable” conclusion was that Thomas Jefferson had fathered Eston Hemings. ”

    there is more here from:http:

    //www.monticello.org/plantation/hemingscontro/hemings-jefferson_contro.html

  608. Interesting article in the SLT. Judge Lindberg issued some rulings in the UEP trust case. The Utah AG has 24 hours to give over the money he received from the flds which was paid in protest. Also, a date has been set for a hearing on the sell of Berry Knoll. GO Judge Lindberg.

  609. http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_12859426

  610. i’d say the flds was slam dunked today by judge lindberg

  611. I think Mark Shurtleff got spanked again. His opponent in the senate race can probably use this against him.

  612. The judge is going to sell berry knoll and is going to set up provisions at the court house, so there will be no disruptions

  613. OOOPS I mean Harker Farms

  614. I think you were right the first time DD, it is Berry Knoll that she is having the hearing about.

  615. when are these people going to realize they have to follow the law?

  616. Oh yeah it is!!! Berry Knoll, thanks Ladysadie, I thought I read it wrong, lol

  617. Thread for Lindberg Ruling:

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2009/07/17/ouch-shurtleff-and-flds-take-a-beating/

    I’m about to close comments on this Open Discussion 7 thread and start Open Discussion 8.

Comments are closed.

 
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