Open Discussion 6

Continued from Open Discussion 5

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on June 25, 2009.

509 Responses to “Open Discussion 6”

  1. Deputydog

    Blues hit this one on the head. Where are the indictments for Mann act violations? Where are the federal indictments for the harboring of an interstate fugitive? Why did the Feds spend the time and effort to execute a warrant when they haven’t brought any indictments?

    I don’t want to create some tin-hat conspiracy, but you do need to wonder.

  2. Ron,
    I do wonder, and what the hell is taking so long??? If canada can prove Fraud, surely the US can, Hell You can find most of the fraud created by FLDS on the internet!! Documents signed by members of fraudulent dummy corporations, etc.

  3. For Instance, Willie Jessop owned a company named “Aspen Management” . He was buying some of FLDS land, under that name, but in the name of another person…. When the deal fell through, Aspen Management ceased to exist.

  4. NewEra Manufacturing is a holding company for Utah Tool & Dye, did you know that?

  5. Both owned by Jacob Jessop, but there are several corps under the Utah Tool & Dye Corp.

  6. Its very clear by warren’s own writings FLDS were laundering money!

  7. Another pedophile was just brought up on charges before in a higher court, having spent fifty confused and unhappy years here. At this point, judgment is out of our hands.

    Reading about Jackson, I am struck by how little of what he said publicly was ever true—he never had plastic surgery, he fathered his children with Debbie Rowe through intercourse, he was beaten by the Santa Barbara police when they arrested him, etc.

    I have no doubt he was lying about those boys.

    Oh, well. Now the LDS can baptize him and he can shuffle off to Heaven.

  8. OMG, GFNY, you owe me a new keyboard now, ROTFLMAO

  9. Greetings, I don’t know that they would want to baptize him. He WAS of the non-white and delightsome skin color. As a matter of fact, he undoubtedly led many astray with his evil, sinful, rock beat music which, as we all know, was created by Satan to lead us all into lustful desires. I’m not going to hold my breath on his posthumous baptism. (Of course he WAS famous, so I’m not going to say they won’t either.)

  10. In truth, Rattle and I were IMing about Michael Jackson and she said it first. I also did the snort-wine-into-the-keyboard trick.

  11. Let us hope that this is the most asinine quote of the day: “It’s like when Kennedy was assassinated. I will always remember being in Times Square when Michael Jackson died.” (Michael Harris; New York, NY)

  12. WOW

    All the news stations are giving him “Head of State” coverage.

    Well, he WAS the “KING” of Pop….

    In ten years, will you remember where you were when you found out?

    That wont be hard for Warren “snort’!

    PS saw the Cirque De Soleil show ‘LOVE” with all the Beatle music not all that long ago – thought of him a cupla times – he owns (ed?) the Beatles music portfolio…

  13. And they say the internets have slowed as peeps log on for the 411 – more traffic than since Obamas big day.

  14. Well Farah Fawcett was a lovely lady, and I think her death is as or more important than Michael Jacksons!

  15. It hard to comment on that without putting MJ down. Perhaps another day, but I agree, Farrah was loved by many too.

    Its odd and sad they both expired the same day. MJ was unexpected, we knew FF was fading badly.

    I think the shock factor end of his sordid past 5 or so years is whats really making the news.

  16. They are reporting that Farah actually died on Tuesday, just announced it today.

  17. She documented everything with a video diary, I saw part of it on Entertainment tonite,, It made me cry… Even with NO hair, she was a beautiful lady, inside and out!

  18. Ron in Houston said this on June 25, 2009 at 6:40 PM
    DeputydogBlues hit this one on the head. Where are the indictments for Mann act violations? Where are the federal indictments for the harboring of an interstate fugitive? Why did the Feds spend the time and effort to execute a warrant when they haven’t brought any indictments? I don’t want to create some tin-hat conspiracy, but you do need to wonder.

    REPLY: Hey, I know some good (really bad) lawyer jokes, but this one takes the cake. Ron talks about schizo and the paranoia of others, and then goes wacko on conspiracy. I know lawyers who have been committed to mental hospitals, because they themselves are conspirators, and with so many lawyers practicing their conspiracies to win their cases, they often have to commit crimes to make it happen. Then when they get tangled up in spiritual matters with all their conspiracy theories, lawyer groups and social science groups, and others, become guilty of spiritual abuse.
    Remember what cajIM said this on June 25, 2009 at 2:12 PM
    The seven traits associated with all groups guilty of Spiritual Abuse are as follows:

    1.) Power Posturing

    2.) Performance Preoccupation

    3.) Unspoken Rules

    4.) Lack of Balance

    5.) Paranoia

    6.) Misplaced Loyalty

    7.) Secretive

    Don’t all these just describe lawyers in general, to the tee, and many politicians. This is why you see so many governors and people in power splattered in the news for their crimes and scandals. It’s really growing to pandemic proportions, because they don’t have a spiritual basis for mental health, no substance in them to go by, shiftless sails in the wind.

  19. “Don’t all these just describe lawyers in general, to the tee, and many politicians.”

    No, not really. Some lawyers deomonstrate some of the traits, few demonstrate all of them at once and fewer still have followers that they can impose these traits on. Nice try, though. Thanks for playing.

  20. There are four patterns of crime which are sufficiently well-documented for the Feds to look at right now:

    1. The Mann Act violation of trafficking of underage girls across state and national borders for the purpose of sex. (Starting in Hildale, UT and Colorado City, AZ, destinations included Caliente, Nev.; El Dorado, Texas; Bonners Ferry, Idaho; Ruidoso, NM; Sonora and Baja, Mexico; and Bountiful, BC.)

    Victims have included:

    Ruth Stubbs
    Jeanetta Jessop
    Ruth Cooke
    Elissa Wall
    Loretta (last name unknown, married to WSJ at age 12)
    Merrianne Jessop
    Teresa Jeffs
    Teresa Steed
    Ruby Jessop

    2. Defrauding workers of legal wages and mandatory Social Security contributions. In the US, the ‘truck system’ is illegal. Payment must be made in legal currency, and employers may not specify where or how employees spend their pay.

    3. The systematic dispossession of apostatized men for the benefit of an inner cartel. This is a protection racket, not materially different from those operated by the Mafia and Russian crime syndicates.

    4. The nested shell corporations which sent cash and material aid to fugitive WSJ and provided the economic engine on which he expanded his empire (see dictations). Partly this was possible because of the ‘truck system’ defrauding of workers. But some of it was the plain old shell game. See three examples:

    a. Rulon Jeff’s deposition elsewhere on this site;
    b. The recent lien on YFZ ranch;
    c. WSJ’s instruction for Merril Jessop to divest himself of title to all property.

  21. Anon @ 10:46 – Are you done practicing on the uneven bars in Logic Gymnastics?

  22. I was hoping for a lawyer joke in there dang!

  23. What about the violatins of the civil rights of the FLDS by LE and CPS especially the chikldren?

  24. What about the violatins of the civil rights of the FLDS by LE and CPS especially the chikldren?

    Well, what about them? If the FLDS feel that their rights were violated then sue. If a jury agrees with them, they’ll be compensated for being violated.

    I actually hope they do bring suit. My personal opinion is that the suit is a loser and I’ll bet they’ve already been told that.

  25. Ron,

    Ditto. Fergeson, look at the big picture. You got your Dozen men going to trial for bigamy / sexual assault.

    If a suit came about, and further discovery was made, it could well lead to permanent removal of the bulk of the children.

    Thats the risk and they havent taken it. What do you think they will do?

  26. I’ll worry about their civil rights when they start worrying about all the rights they take from their women & children every day.

    When the women say enough. We want adequate medical care, the freedom to come and go from the compound as we please, the right to raise our children to adulthood without them being dropped off in the desert or assigned to a man old enough to be their father or grandfather, the ability to report child abuse and have something done about it, and my personal favorite , no more mental institutions for not “keeping sweet” enough.

  27. Had they not lied in the first place about the number of people (including children) living on the compound, maybe LE and CPS wouldn’t have been shocked and somewhat unprepared for taking that many in.

    And if you don’t want your children placed in a position where you think their rights could be violated, then don’t raise them to break the very laws that LE & CPS are bound to protect. Duh.

  28. Interesting signing in Kerrville last night. We were paid a visit by some FLDS, who are now living in Kerrville. They did their typical thing of milling around and hiding behind book shelves to watch us.

    One of our survivors, who had just walked in the store from her flight in, recognized the man, who came in with two boys, walked right up to him and asked how her sister was!

    Her sister is one of his concubines left behind [not skinny/pretty/favored enough to be one of the YFZ’s “elect”]. He never answered her, so she quickly scrawled a note and asked him to give it to her sister. She does not believe he will give it to her but is hoping one of the boys will pass on her message of love.

    If he does, we hope he doesn’t get into trouble for it.

    BTW, FLDS has purchased a large piece of land in the New Braunfels area, big enough for another compound.

    One of their businesses here also has the contract to lay cement for a bunch of the wind turbines being installed in West Texas.

    Local contractors in the Hill Country should be highly aware that these FLDS companies will be undercutting their bids on construction work now, due to their cheap/free labor force, comprised of boys, who simply turn their paychecks back over to the priesthood when they are “paid”.

  29. Thanks for the anecdotes Boots! Thats pretty funny, but sad at the same time.

  30. If you use illegal labor practices to obtain the lowest bid and win a contract, is that in itself a contribution to racketeering charges?

  31. Yep, sure is but just try to find anyone who will care or do anything about it. Several underage boys working for FLDS companies in Phoenix have been killed in construction site accidents, yet no charges were ever filed.

    Just more stuff that makes you go Hmmm.

  32. Also, at the signing in San Antonio, one of the lawyers for some of the mothers showed up and raised her hand to accuse Flora of grossly exaggerating. You should have seen her face when three CPS employees and one CPS investigator stood up to give her what for and tell the audience that Flora hadn’t exaggerated anything at all.

    Talk about fur flying! Flora said she thought my wig was going to flip right off my head when the lawyer said, “Absolutely no evidence was ever found of abuse on the ranch”. I jumped up with the final CPS report and shook it at her, saying 275 cases of abuse and neglect were positively identified along with 125 perpetrators of the abuse, and I can guarantee you there weren’t 125 men on that ranch.

    Before it was all over the audience was clapping and cheering for indicting the care bear colored mothers.

    We got the whole thing on video!

  33. I wanna see the video!

  34. “Local contractors in the Hill Country should be highly aware that these FLDS companies will be undercutting their bids on construction work now, due to their cheap/free labor force,”

    What about the locals using cheap illegal immigrant labor?

    “who simply turn their paychecks back over to the priesthood when they are “paid”.”

    They can do that, it is called tithing. Their room and board is paid for. I would think they are being careful in following labor laws, also remember if the business is family owned, they are exempt from much of the child labor regulations.

  35. Yeah, let’s see how exempt they are from the truancy laws in this state, too.

  36. ” I jumped up with the final CPS report and shook it at her, saying 275 cases of abuse and neglect were positively identified along with 125 perpetrators of the abuse”

    Just because CPS says it doesn’t make it so. There have been numurouos accounts by parents of CPS workers lying, making misstatements, and generally abusing their authority. Some have even been arrested as a result of grossly abusing their positions. Google it.
    That is the problem with many of you, blind trust in Government agencies that can do no wrong. The problem with this view is that the “government” consists of fallible humans who when given power, often tend to abuse it. This site goes on and on about Warren’s alleged abuse of power, yet nothing about abuses by those granted power over others under color of “official capacity”.

  37. Yep, Duane, that’s it. Everyone lies except the FLDS creepos who pimp out their little girls to old men for sexual pleasure, and abandon their boys to the streets like dogs.

    Uh huh, yeah, sure, whatever.

  38. also remember if the business is family owned, they are exempt from much of the child labor regulations

    True, but only as to children that are members of the family that owns the business. However, the regulations regarding hazardous equipment still apply and most construction involves this type of equipment.

  39. Boots – do the rank and file CPS workers feel like Austin sold them out?

  40. FLDS has purchased a large piece of land in the New Braunfels area

    Think we’ll see prairie dresses tubing down the Guadalupe?

  41. Ron,

    Absolutely, yes they do. We’ve seen a lot of tears. We’ve heard repeatedly that they feel like they will never be the same again after this experience. They feel like the system failed them and the children. They weren’t allowed to do their jobs and protect them.

    Several people have also told us that they personally know CPS employees who quit their jobs right after they were forced to return the YFZ children, which is a shame, because those are the kind of people the system needs to keep, because they do care so very much.

  42. “Think we’ll see prairie dresses tubing down the Guadalupe?”

    LMAO! Maybe the priesthood will cough up the money to send them all to Schlitterbahn?

    More likely they’ll start a tube selling business and cash in on the tourist.

    “Buy or rent our tubes so we can keep selling little girls down the river”.

  43. Here is a great song that can be a tribute to Micheal Jackson’s life.

    Perhaps the FLDS should use it too.

  44. “Think we’ll see prairie dresses tubing down the Guadalupe?”

    Sounds great! We’d go out and join them, bring an extra tube packed with a cooler of beer…after all, they are allowed to drink.

  45. “after all, they are allowed to drink.”

    Got a picture of a Plyg lady drinking a beer duane?

    LOL

  46. Stamp

    I’m still waiting for my picture from “Cheese” on Brooke’s board for a black lady in a prairie dress….

  47. Drinking a beer… In front of the YFZ ranch sign… Next to Warren… one of his wives..

  48. IF I have wear long underwear and long dresses with today’s heat of 104, I would definitely drink a beer!!!
    But from what I’ve learned,, Warren’s elite don’t drink, thats why he chose them

  49. Carolyn’s book showed the men having a beer for a football game party, but the women did not join in, if I remember correctly. And then later he outlawed things like TV’s and football. Drinking is one of the reason for throwing out lost boys, is it not? So, obviously it’s not acceptable behavior. The way they went on about wholesome food, etc., during the raid, I’d be surprised if they even drink coffee and tea, let alone alcohol.

  50. They do drink, and they also drink coffee and tea. Pliggy told me a joke about “never bring more than 2 beers to a Mormon party” don’t remember the punchline…something about them mooching it all. They have reiterated this on BillM’s blog, made fun of the LDS taking the “words of wisdom” way too literally, making remarks about the plentiful supply of hot coffee in short creek.
    Rulon was a heavy drinker, I don’t know about Warren.
    Drunkeness is frowned upon.

  51. “Warren’s elite don’t drink, thats why he chose them”

    Oh is that so?? I would have thought it had something to do with sharing the same idealogy.

  52. Early Mormondom took no exception or rules about alcoholic consumption and Brigham Young’s brother had an exclusive franchise in liquor dealing trade. When the railroad came into Utah a fair source of profit came with it as most passengers and railroad men drank heavily. ‘Tea Totaling’ LDS developed later in Mormon history, especially when Statehood limited alcohol licensing.

  53. It’s not the same idealogy they share , as much as it’s they never question his authority.

    When your having Warren’s baby, and he won’t let you go to the hospital, you end up having an episiotomy with no anesthesia given ,and dental floss used as surgical thread. Then when you relay that information to someone else, he is displeased with you and sends you somewhere for “more training”.

  54. The FLDS elite in Texas drink the good stuff. Cough Syrup!

  55. Boots just up on Brooke’s blog is, “Welfare Check” article from Arizona. Seems Adams interviewed the person in charge of information who stated that saying all Arizonans now living at the YFZ Ranch received some form of welfare stipend is untrue?

  56. Maybe the important word is “all”.

    But I think it’s interesting that Brooke’s blog is now responding to other blogs. LOL.

  57. duane “Oh is that so?? I would have thought it had something to do with sharing the same idealogy”

    That would be the ideology that it’s wrong to drink, perhaps.

  58. Betty I just didn’t realize it was so simple to advance under Warren: Merely refrain from drinking and you will go very far!!

    I just didn’t realize the higher ups got to that position merely because they didn’t drink.

  59. “Seems Adams interviewed the person in charge of information who stated that saying all Arizonans now living at the YFZ Ranch received some form of welfare stipend is untrue?”

    Of course not CAJIM, We all know everything Brooke writes is a bald faced lie while everything put out by Flora and Kdee is the undisputable truth.

  60. Heah, duane have you figured out a way to unpublish Flora’s book, or stop her Bookstore appearances(when you even fail to appear) and stop the spreading Light of Truth? Adams is up to her old tricks of conducting one-on-one interviews so she gets exactly what she is after which is controversy which drives her blog. Don’t you feel used yet, Brooke’s only access to the FLDS is because she prints their propaganda. The question is what did the Arizona welfare employee state that got edited out on the floor before press time but stay tuned. BillM says Brooke is a liar and untrustworthy, so are you her fan now?

  61. Duh duane do you still believe that a Civil Act of disobedience includes committing a felony, like taking a minor teen female to a honeymoon bed because your Spiritual leader says God’s laws rule your church and not ‘Gentile’ civil laws? So I am curious if that magnitude of criminal conduct is justifiable in your view?

  62. Oh Duane likes to crow because he spends most of his time eating crow…

  63. He’s right up there with Willie – a sitting target. One you cant miss!

  64. While duane is unpublishing Floras book, maybe he can undo all the abuse and molestings too.

  65. Well, Ron and Stamp another disappearance of the intrepid ‘Dumb One’ too smart to “out” himself by answering for his own criminal mindset. Watch if I don’t get called a hater and bigot the next time our “Tin Foiled Caped Crusader” duane arrives.

  66. I’m really sorry to have missed last eve’s booksigning, somehow got things mixed, thought it was tonight.

  67. Cajim

    This brainless nugget he posted on welfare check, plural life:

    “duaneh1 says:

    June 26, 2009 at 5:22 pm

    Bottom line is: Whatever the percentage of FLDS using govt. benefits, they are not breaking the law and are meeting the qualifications.”

    ============

    Guess he would make a good AZ welfare social worker!

  68. Boots wrote: “Local contractors in the Hill Country should be highly aware that these FLDS companies will be undercutting their bids on construction work now, due to their cheap/free labor force, comprised of boys, who simply turn their paychecks back over to the priesthood when they are ‘paid’.

    Drives me nuts. But the only way to force the Feds to pay attention is to document, document, document these offenses. So I really encourage everyone who sees such violations to take down as much information as they can, and publish it… here seems as good a place as any.

    Modern windmills are huge things, and I would hate to imagine their foundations poured by any company which skirts laws, including labor laws. The blades on them are 128 feet long and spin fast. We need them anchored down by skilled craftsmen, not children.

    BTW, Duane, the ‘truck system’ or ‘company store’ is illegal in the US. Employers are required by law to pay their employees in currency and pay all relevant taxes and mandated benefits (a third to a half again as much as salary for most companies). They also may not dictate where their employees spend their money, so mandatory tithing to Warren & Co. is out the window.

  69. Missy Greetings, A wah yahh know. I rasta bwoy. You picture pretty Missy, like’m nice Star rasta bwoy?
    No u worry all dem royal Ram Goat men, u worry none of dem. I good Kingman from Mount Zion, I and I downpressin’ dem royal Goat Men, nawh u worry.

  70. My dear Mr. Jamaica: I gather that was a complement of some sort, and I am flattered, thank you. Is there some sort of Rasta filter which I can use to make that intelligible? (I do think your photo transcends language, however.)

  71. Yall have to read this, Winston Blackmore owes TAXES over 2 million dollars..

    http://www.vancouversun.com/Life/Bountiful+members+over+million+taxes/1734489/story.html

  72. If only the American government would take the same hard look at the FLDS!

    I thought the wrap was so sad, and so telling:

    “But the tax files suggest a wide disparity between him and his employees, whose reassessed income and benefits are a small fraction of what he and his brothers earned. And far from enjoying restaurant meals and airplanes, they often lived in squalid conditions.

    “‘My wife and I shared one bedroom with our children in 2004,’ Chris Chatwin said in a hand-printed note appealing his reassessment. ‘In 2003, we stayed in a small travel trailer with no amenities parked by an outhouse. The $400 we were charged for this benefit is ridiculous.’”

    Bravo, Canada Revenue Agency, and DD for bringing this to our attention!

  73. jamaicka,

    … ” ” …

    (my post might/would be deleted IF I had posted my ENTIRE original thoughts)

    so instead I’ll just say, “**** Off”

    crawl back under your rock.

  74. DD

    EXCELENT ARTICLE THANKS

    Exed FLDS Winnie owes 2 mil in back taxes. Perhaps they will go after UEP property or(?) if it isnt paid forthright?

    ADD to that an additional 20-30 tax fraud cases are pending. WOW Canada! Guess they dont like getting ripped off up there, either!??

    http://www.vancouversun.com/Life/Bountiful+members+over+million+taxes/1734489/story.html

    “Bountiful members owe over $2 million in taxes

    Another 20 to 30 appeal cases from the polygamous community are pending in federal Tax Court

    By Daphne Bramham, Vancouver SunJune 26, 2009

    Members of Bountiful’s polygamous community have bilked Canadians out of more than $2 million in unpaid taxes, tax credits as well as unpaid penalties and fines, according to Canada Revenue Agency.

    It all tracks directly to Winston Blackmore, spiritual leader for about half of the 1,500 fundamentalist Mormons living in southeastern British Columbia.

    Blackmore is also president of J.R. Blackmore & Sons Ltd. (JRB), whose shareholders and directors include him and his brothers Richard Guy, Richard and Kevin.

    The gross negligence penalties assessed the company, Blackmore and his brothers total just under $1.5 million. In addition, the government says they owe another half a million dollars in tax arrears and interest.

    As a result of the company audit, another 20 to 30 appeal cases from Bountiful are pending in federal Tax Court.”

  75. TexasMama why yu talkin’ in such a witchy mouth? Me nawh tell yu no lies? Blessed Be Y’shua ha Mashiyad and I and I prayin for yu, ya no see it. Jah Rastafari H.I.M. Haile Sellaisse is the Lion of Judah yu Babylon Princess.

    Jesum, Peeze from Bingiemon

  76. Had they not lied in the first place about the number of people (including children) living on the compound, maybe LE and CPS wouldn’t have been shocked and somewhat unprepared for taking that many in.
    ========================================================
    They didn’t lie. It was Carolyn Jessop who told them to expect about 100 children.

  77. No, Alin, Merril Jessop had told that to Sheriff Doran, then at the gate the day of the rescue Merril Jessop told Sheriff Doran 250 people.

  78. I’ll worry about their civil rights when they start worrying about all the rights they take from their women & children every day.
    ==========================================================
    And yet, it was the women and children who had their rights violated as a direct result of the raid.

  79. Cool! Another lie exposed.

    Here is the response I received today from Kevan Kaighn, a spokesman for the department:

    “As you are aware, information about individuals or families receiving benefits from any of the Department of Economy Security’s programs is protected under privacy and confidentiality statutes.

    However, I can say that Ms. Jessop’s quote is inaccurate.

    The department takes all allegations of improper actions seriously. We investigate allegations of impropriety and take appropriate action.”

  80. Alinusara the part of this YFZ Ranch saga that is the most illustrative of how illegetimate the FLDS Church’s role is where did all these women and children come from in the first place? They are not native Texans and how did they come to reside at the YFZ Ranch. We notice that no accountability by the FLDS Church or any of it’s leadership owns up to any responsibility to account for the welfare or safety of them prior to the removal, yet hold government officials 100% responsible after the removal? Where was Bishop F. Merril Jessop during the removal, didn’t he hide out and distance himself from this entire situation? The Bishop has never taken any responsibility for having abandoned the ranch while the removal transpired or owned up to his roll of misinforming Texas officials as to the resident totals or give any explanations/concerns during the removal.

    I know Alinusara there will be no response on this question from you or any other lying protector of the Prophet and his Priesthood leaders no matter how cowardly and ineptly they handle their responsibilities to their own congregation. No accountability, no responsibility and the women and children were left to basically fend for themselves. Then the Texas officials are held 100% responsible for all the supposed wrong doing?

  81. Alinsura, the problem seems to be, Arizona and Utah fail to double check recipents of Welfare, food stamps etc. IRS doesn’t check incomes, they all report below poverty incomes, yet they OWN corporations that make millions. The people work for free, Corporate (leadership) owners take their checks and give it back to the Corporations in the name of religion.
    So, lets see who gets the benefits of the members hard labor? Is it helping the poor? Is it given to those in need outside the community? What percentage of their paycheck do the members actually get to pocket to support their families??
    The answer None of the above, and let me tell you why. Because if members recieved fair miniumum wage for thier work and could use it as they pleased, the Leadership would NO longer have total control over their lives. Why human being allow this happen to them amazes me.

  82. Alinusara the “Welfare Check” article also states that none of the YFZ Ranch residents was receiving any Arizona welfare stipend and I have an e-mail from Kevin Kaighn to affirm he is the PIO (Public Information Officer) and specifically share what was Brooke’s specific question/inquiry, since Brooke conveniently left that question out of her interview article. By the by, Adams quotes Kevin as saying that Jessop’s comment is “inaccurate” but Brooke failed to share the comment/quote from Flora either. The topic was a conversation from a Arizona Economic Security staffer that every Arizona family resident at the YFZ Ranch was receiving welfare support but Adams question/inquiry is not stated in the article. Willie Jessop’s complete denial is given that none were receiving any Arizona or Utah support, which I plan to question Kevin about, as well. He won’t likely respond until next Monday but I look forward to his reply and will share it here.

  83. Thank you cajIM for following up on this, can we find out who the Public Information Officer is for Utah’s Welfare office and pose the same question to him if any of the FLDS Texas residents from the Bishop’s list were receiving ANY type of public funds from Utah?

  84. Alinusara the part of this YFZ Ranch saga that is the most illustrative of how illegetimate the FLDS Church’s role is where did all these women and children come from in the first place?
    ===========================================================
    /shrug. Families have a tendency to move. I hope you are not advocating taking that right away.
    ===========================================================
    We notice that no accountability by the FLDS Church or any of it’s leadership owns up to any responsibility to account for the welfare or safety of them prior to the removal, yet hold government officials 100% responsible after the removal?
    ===========================================================
    Since they was in the custody of the state the state was 100 percent responsible for their safety.
    ===========================================================
    Where was Bishop F. Merril Jessop during the removal, didn’t he hide out and distance himself from this entire situation?
    ===========================================================
    No. Once he was indicted he turned himself in.
    ===========================================================
    No accountability, no responsibility and the women and children were left to basically fend for themselves.
    ===========================================================
    I dunno. The women and chldren, those who chose not to return to the ranch right away, received enough assistance from the church community to live in some pretty decent homes.

  85. Lady S first I will get Kevin’s response but if any frauds are being investigated you would think by now either Arizona or Utah would have proffered the information to the Press/Public to show their responsiveness? Willie’s statement that none were in receipt to me should have piqued Brooke Adams interest even more than Flora’s statement.

  86. Anonymous and still hiding yourself without identity but complete duplicity in protecting and defending the actions of a fanatical church sect. You wish to forget that over 550+ residents were in residence at the YFZ Ranch which you describe as,”Families have a tendency to move”? What pure unadulterated FLDS pap. Every hunting lodge needs over dozens of families to maintain it’s operations. Do you even know that FLDS leaders promised that the FLDS Church population would never exceed 200 persons, once there was a meeting and a frank admission by FLDS leaders was made that no hunting lodge was ever intended. So the original intended use was a lie followed by a promise that the resident population would be limited, yet another lie. No Anon no one is looking to deny any civil rights but lying from the get go sure raises alot of mistrust and resentments. Now the question of welfare frauds has arisen, which follows the FLDS into Texas because the abuses and convictions of welfare frauds are of record in Arizona and Utah. Maybe you deny that too.

  87. “I dunno. The women and chldren, those who chose not to return to the ranch right away, received enough assistance from the church community to live in some pretty decent homes.

    Those would be WSJ and Merrill’s wives, children, son’s wives, etc. That’s what those $1000 a month tithes are for; some women live in trailers so that the pretty ones can live in giant suburban homes. Ain’t that grand!

  88. alinusaro wrote “They didn’t lie. It was Carolyn Jessop who told them to expect about 100 children.”

    And Merrill who told them that there were only about 100 people on the whole place. Standing at the gate. My theory? Only men count.

  89. duane,

    SUUURE. We all believe Pliggy, too. Every golden drop that comes out of his mouth is 100% truth, all the truth, nothing but the truth.

  90. About welfare benefits.
    Does that include medicaire?

  91. I think based on some readings posted here that some of the elite see the under aged marriages as a statement of their right to dispose of their own people rather than let the US government tell them what to do (though they say it in religious terms). However, civil disobedience involves the assumption that you will go to jail, make public protest and demand changes to law or government, etc. It is NOT just lying and moving people and money around to cover your tracks. That’s racketeering.

  92. C-M

    Thats just one form – medicare, medicaide, WIC, food stamps, welfare, SS disability there are a lot of sources for them to cheat not to mention the IRS.

  93. Badd Bwoy, badda bwoyz
    Whada yu gonna do when d’come 4 yuz?
    If yu get hott, yu musta gett kool.
    Putin’ Away Peeze, bingiemon

    R/X – Yu dirty Goat Men, wid’em black hearted!

  94. A couple of good posters here are quite refreshing, in contrast to the general bitch-session paranoia going on here. These two are worthy of notice to more intelligent minds.

    1. Anonymous said this on June 25, 2009 at 10:46 PM

    Remember what cajIM said this on June 25, 2009 at 2:12 PM
    The seven traits associated with all groups guilty of Spiritual Abuse are as follows:

    1.) Power Posturing, 2.) Performance Preoccupation, 3.) Unspoken Rules, 4.) Lack of Balance

    5.) Paranoia, 6.) Misplaced Loyalty, 7.) Secretive

    Don’t all these just describe lawyers in general, to the tee, and many politicians. This is why you see so many governors and people in power splattered in the news for their crimes and scandals. It’s really growing to pandemic proportions, because they don’t have a spiritual basis for mental health, no substance in them to go by, shiftless sails in the wind.

    2. duane said this on June 26, 2009 at 12:24 PM
    This site goes on and on about Warren’s alleged abuse of power, yet nothing about abuses by those granted power over others under color of “official capacity”.

    Maybe I should respond to this topic of paranoia in general. You should find it interesting, since there is some intelligence and humanity manifest here.

    NEXT POST

  95. PARANOIA:
    PART I

    I think it’s the beans you’ve been eating, and partly the overdoses that many of you have suffered, and the delusional upbringing. There is a beautiful song that goes: Beans, Beans, American soup…Pew! That’s the bench in America’s churches! When you’re fed so much poison that you become paranoid about a conservative community and the Word of God itself, because it is too upright for your comfort, and a challenge to your society’s diversions and lack of values, then schizophrenia sets in and makes you quite mad, according to the prophecy spoken of this very day and of this society (Rev.11:18).

    You start digging up your own cwap and wallowing in it, when you go looking for cwap in others, and artfully create it in your own schizophrenic minds, without much science. Indeed, the only science you come to know is the science of poopology. So like I say, Beans beans, American soup, makes your jeans go rudy toot toot, and the American media-slop you keep dining on makes them go poppity-pop. I guess that’s fitting for the times, for the 4th of July day of independence is on ya, your freedom to cut loose, get drunk, squat, vomit, let it fling, let it fly. I think you will all agree that America needs a good manure-spreader.

    When people support a government that has thousands of conflicting laws, and slays millions of its innocent children, you all become lawless and serial killers, and then you try to turn on other innocent children and their families whose fundamental and conservative faith and care and uprightness you don’t like, because like any criminal, uprightness makes you uncomfortable and more conscious of your own guilt. So when the guilty can’t win a debate, their only out is to resort to fancy descriptions of paranoia and the changing of laws (Heb.7:12, Prov.24:21), and try to pin their sickness and quilt upon others as a mask for their own criminal and mental illness”, and call them evil. They resort to labeling even the ancient institutions of marriage as rape, and religious consecration as stealing, and loyalty to God as fanatical, and the call to repentance as paranoia. “Christ is the end of the law” (Romans 10:4). “The strength of sin is the law” (I Cor.15:56).

    It is very much like the Jews trying to accuse Christ of having a devil, because they were also mentally ill and very paranoid of every good He said and did. Says they: “We have a law” (John 19:7). But as the lawbook says, Christ is the end of the law. If you are living the strictness of His law, like the FLDS, then you come under “the perfect law of liberty”, as is written (James 1:25). It doesn’t matter if the strictness of His law and of His word makes you very uncomfortable, and even seems criminal to you. That’s just because of your guilt and your criminal conscience and lifestyle, and the sustaining of law and government that is self-inflicting and being destroyed from within.

    Now, if saints are careful and distrustful of liars and thieves and an immoral society, you can go ahead and call us paranoid, but that type of paranoia is mental health, not your mental illness. Indeed, what are some of the definitions of “Paranoia”? This from Roget’s Thesaurus: “Fearful, Wary, Distrustful”. Now, when it comes to evil and assault and your mass-murder of little children (ten-times more killings than Adolf Hitler), is it evil to possess paranoia against that? The answer is obvious. So the call comes from the portals of glory: “Come home, it is supper time”.

    SEE PART II

  96. PARANOIA:
    PART II

    You have to apply terms in their context, or else it is meaningless. Many of you are even paranoid toward the Bible, the Word of God, because it is a mental and spiritual challenge against your lifestyle and your very nature. You would naturally kick like a horse, and squeal like a pig, for “the natural man is an enemy to God” (I Cor.2:14, Mosiah 3:19), and to all respectable society, whether you are politicians, pastors, corporate execs, or a lowly laborer slaving to glorify their sorry asses, the worst of criminals since the world began.

    Some of you, however, still hold the Bible to be our standard. See? The world is not all evil, is it. In your schizophrenic zeal to label and destroy an innocent community, you just try to put that blame on them. It is FLDS doctrine that many righteous will be gathered from all nations, that this was done in the time of the gentiles (up to 1890), and that it will continue throughout the Millennium. That is what all of us are taught in the FLDS Church, and it is in our scriptures and sermons. So you can’t put your mental illness on us.

    There is good in the world, for “there is none good but the Father” ( ). The Father has dealings with men in the world, so His good is there, see? Like the phrase says, “Good God”, or the blessing on the food: “Good food, Good meat, Good Lord, let’s eat”, Ahmen. That being the case, some of you still holding the Bible to be true and faithful, and not something to make you mentally ill and mad, let us see if the concepts of paranoia, of fear and distrust in the right context, are evil or indeed good, to wit:

    1. “Come ye children, hearken unto me. I will teach you the fear of the Lord” (Psalm 34:11). Is that evil? Some of you are still so very fearful and mentally and morally challenged and paranoid of the Lord, of the strictness of His law, and of that community that exemplifies it, that you will even call that evil, you being only “evil continually”, as the scripture foretells (Gen.6:5, Is.52:5).

    How about the other synonyms for paranoia, like “distrust”? Do you actually trust in a corrupt government and her armed forces and her allies, to save you, even as they are delivering you into global hatred and economic collapse and internal terror, and a disdain for God and His strict laws, a distrust for the Lord? Is that not evil, making you all the more outcasts of the world-community and of its economy? Is it not in fact good to distrust your arms and riches, and the vain promises of men in high places, and your demonizing efforts in the forums? Do you feel so threatened by some, that you have to label them in your forums, like unto yourselves as mentally-ill, and seek to ban them, while your readership and influence dwindles. What does the scripture say about distrusting such desperado’s, and casting you out of the community of the saints? To wit:

    2. “If I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the Kingdom of God is come unto you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace, but when a stronger than he shall come unto him and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils” (Luke 11:20-22).

    So, is it not good to be “paranoid”, to distrust in such things as arms and riches, of sexual pleasure and power over others? These things make you quite egotistically mad, producing endless mind-chatter, what the Buddhists call “monkey-mind”, that worried and needy grasping. You can all see that a paranoid fear and distrust is good, even crucial to survival, if you apply it correctly and objectively to the right object. When you become so paranoid that you label distrust in arms and riches, in worldly favor and education and pleasure, as a likeness of your own mental-illness, because your sick paranoia toward the Lord and His law has such a damning hold on you, what is called “the chains of hell” (2 Peter 2:4), that you just cannot free yourselves, then you are now slaves to your own demons. Then what is left for you? You have a label for that too, calling it “doomsday”, and so it is. Such a vicious cycle. I will pray for you.

    Street

  97. Street/Curious is off his meds again, I see.

  98. “I will pray for you.” Street

    “Pray for yourself.” TexasMom

  99. Zitting

    You and Rheck brothers? LOL

    You both type so much that says so little.

    Besides clues for a Psychiatrist! Yours must have his hands full. Warrens too.

  100. arrests in washington county yesterday

    HAMMON, SAMUEL RAY
    Birth Date: 04/21/81
    Address : POBOX 2062 (CENTENIAL PK), Colorado City, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    00:30:00 06/27/09 Jessop,Shem COLO

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    MOJAVE COUNTY MOJAVE COUNTY DETAINE NA MOHA 0.00 [No Payments Made]

  101. so far Ive counted at least 20 or more former Flds or Centinnel Park young people who have been arrested for DUI, Drugs, Outstanding warrants.

  102. You see? That is why they are FORMER. Still, does an arrest make the accused guilty. Oftentimes it is the accuser that is guilty, and what do you know, America has MILLIONS of its citizens in jail or prison, maybe 1% per capita, while in the FLDS maybe one-tenth of one-percent (WJ), and that one man merely demonstrates the guilt of the accuser, as we all know.

    So, why do you relish in posting every arrest that has ever had anything to do with FLDS, or with religion, or with Utah, or maybe world-wide Mormonism. Why?

  103. DD, I have to say that in a population of 10,000 people that doesn’t seem excessive.

  104. Curuious, I post them because you seem to think Flds are “pure” perfect people.
    And what do you mean Only Warren is in jail. Many in FLDS have been convicted of abuse, underage marriage. The fact that Utah and Arizona officals are paid off to do away with convictions is the problem.
    The perfect fact is that “Dan Barlow” molested all 5 of his daughters and was found guilty, yet given NO jail time, No fines.
    How much did it cost FLDS to get him off? I sure as hell wish some of the judges in Utah would be indicted!!

  105. Rebeckah, the arrests have been in the last 10 days.

  106. Most are young people 18-22 with a couple being much older. 4 at least 4 young children have been killed, by ATV accidents, run over by a family member, run over by a tractor. And this just in Utah in the last two weeks.

  107. Curious yu lotta cuss-cuss all Gideon, yu need’n ganga and smoke’m
    roll all yurself, it take yu higher, higher and higher
    No, No Worry when yu worry yur trouble is double.

    Lissen I tesamony, mon, nah lie
    Shepherd Jeffs be mess’n yur head around
    Melchizedek is H.I.M. the Lion of Judah

    Blessed Be Yashua, One Love

  108. Well, at least Curious is talking about something he understands.

  109. Did you know that in Sandskirt Jai means “Victory” and “Jain” means “the victorious”?

  110. Street,

    The issue has been that UT and AZ have kept the Plygs in their own petri dish and left them alone.

    For forty years they behaved – kinda. Except LebBarons and LAfferties killin each other off.

    Then the welfare scams, the molesting issue, and Warren breaking up families just caught people attention as to how messed up fundamentalists really are.

    They have their hand out to the government to float their huge families,

    OHH except for guys like you and Pliggy who are unworthy of families,

    and when they dared wander off the funny farm the other states / countries crack down on that bull crap.

    So why would you be surprised?

    Warrens going to get a lot of company in prison. Is that really Gods plan for his chosen few, or is it their own conniving plan that gets them there?

    I’d say they helped themselves right into the prison door.

    More to follow. And Winnie just got hit with a $2 mill bill from Canada on top of his legal woes.

    DANG

  111. BTW how do we know those arrestees are FORMER?

    If their address is CC or hildale, chances are they are CURRENT.

  112. Curious wrote “America has MILLIONS of its citizens in jail or prison, maybe 1% per capita, while in the FLDS maybe one-tenth of one-percent (WJ), and that one man merely demonstrates the guilt of the accuser, as we all know.”

    Au contraire, mon frere. There are/have been quite a few FLDS who went to jail for under aged sex, rape, child abuse, etc. A long list.

  113. DD

    did you see that pic of the older lady Jessop from CC? She was definetly CURRENT, dress, hairdo and all! And she looked like she had drank half a bottle! NOT beer!

  114. Maybe Warren will have them start tattooing FLDS on their forehead, and when they are exed they tattoo a line through it.

    That way everyone and especially God can keep track.

  115. Curious your take on the paranoia mentioned in,”The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse” is not the brand you choose to describe in your diatribe. Obviously, you feel compelled to defend yourself and the FLDS Church and ignore the simple truth put forward in this book. The trait the spiritual abuse is manifested within a sect by creating an atmosphere of paranoia is very obviously known to exist in the FLDS Church. Your attempt to project the paranoid atmosphere on the rest of America is lunatic and demonstrates the degree of fanaticism your sect is capable of manifesting. The author Jeff Van Vonderen is speaking of paranoia as a common trait created within any/all church group(s) guilty of practicing Spiritual Abuse, he makes no specific charges and states no examples of the FLDS Church in his book. Your rantings and outrage, therefore, is baseless as far as this book is concerned. The comparison it affords when you take the FLDS Church teachings, leadership tactics and FLDS group think and apply it to this books list of seven traits is highly illuminating and amazingly accurate, especially when you compare the # 5.) Paranoia trait. The paranoia atmosphere that is described has three aspects, Firstly is the group is taught that the outside world is EVIL and a eventual clash with the church is unavoidable. The FLDS Church writings and Warren Jeffs own dictations prove that this mindset and teaching(s) were common beliefs and held by the FLDS congregation. Curious some of your own rantings about how far worse off the real world is when compared to the church demonstrates this fact.
    Your other subtle and indoctrinated view is that the better and more correct belief is held by the church. Congratulations Curious you are ready for the clash with EVIL, seems the government and outsiders who persecute you, will attempt genocide and falsely arrest your leadership is now occurring. Secondly, amongst your own faithful a purging must occur to eject the balking believers, potential defectors and weakly committed. Curious you fall into this category and don’t even seem to be aware of your assigned status. Warren has not only had repeated purges since rising to Prophet but he has moved the chosen brethren out of Utah to the ‘Land of Refuge’ and insists that new tests must be met to enter. This paranoia then is aimed at the church’s own congregation and try as you might Curious to blame the outsiders but this is a self inflicted wound. Lastly, an event will occur to become the ultimate challenge to the groups worthiness and sacrifice to fulfill a prophecy. This paranoia of some impending clash and ultimate challenge then affords the church leadership to place limitless hardships, economic demands and endless sacrifices for this spiritual quest. No price is too high, sacrifice too great or selfless act too much to achieve the WORK.

    Heah, Curious sound familiar? You know Enoch, Zion and the ‘Great Uplifting’? We have to get to the ‘Land of Refuge’, build the Temple and Zion can be achieved. No matter the personal displacements, cost or expense heaped upon dozens of families, hundreds of children and all for some supposed prophetic revelation that will more likely never even occur. Sounds pretty paranoid and spiritually abusive to me but why don’t we ask Warren S Jeffs, I am sure he can explain.

  116. Those would be WSJ and Merrill’s wives, children, son’s wives, etc. That’s what those $1000 a month tithes are for; some women live in trailers so that the pretty ones can live in giant suburban homes. Ain’t that grand!

    ———————————————–

    It is my understanding of some of the bail terms that they had to stay away from those they are accused of abusing. That should keep Sally and her girls away from the ranch along with Annette and her kids. I’m guessing whomever Warren is accused of abusing could move back since he’s not on the ranch premises.

  117. I’m still contemplating RICO charges on the other channel.

    In the past few days I’ve been thinking about peonage, slavery and human trafficking (which are all violations of the US legal code and covered under RICO). One aspect of these crimes is that unpaid workers do not have SS taxes paid on their behalf, either their own contribution or their employers’.

    The Amish have a religious exemption from SS because they agree to never collect benefits. But, otherwise, even the youngest and poorest workers here pay into the system. So not only are the FLDS defrauding these young men, they are defrauding the social security system.

  118. If only the FLDS were as honorable as the Amish.

    *SIGH*

  119. Alison Barlow, 30, 144 W. 380 North, LaVerkin, was arrested Saturday on charges of theft, possession of paraphernalia, possession of amphetamine and possession of heroin. Barlow was booked into Purgatory Correctional Facility on $10,925 bail.

  120. I wonder if Alison Barlow would qualify for drug detox/treatment services through the Safety Net Committee funds. Seems like psychological counseling should fall under the program. She looks quite ill and unhappy in her booking photo and if she’s using heroin she’s in big trouble.

  121. This is funny…for you classical wordsmiths out there.

  122. Every hunting lodge needs over dozens of families to maintain it’s operations.
    ===========================================
    Yah! The person who sold them the ranch which is solely populated by cayotes, rattlesnakes, and scorpions should be indicted for fraud.
    ============================================
    Warren breaking up families just caught people attention as to how messed up fundamentalists really are.
    =============================================
    You would force a woman to stay with a man she doesn’t love against her will?
    ==============================================
    Now the question of welfare frauds has arisen, which follows the FLDS into Texas because the abuses and convictions of welfare frauds are of record in Arizona and Utah. Maybe you deny that too.
    ==============================================
    I most certainly do deny it. 2 people was convicted in Utah in 2006 and had to reimburse the state. Hardly indicative of the membership as a whole.

  123. Those would be WSJ and Merrill’s wives, children, son’s wives, etc. That’s what those $1000 a month tithes are for; some women live in trailers so that the pretty ones can live in giant suburban homes. Ain’t that grand!
    ==========================================================
    What’s grand is you have the freedom in our great nation not to join their faith.

  124. deputydog1 said this on June 27, 2009 at 2:56 PM
    Curuious, I post them because you seem to think Flds are “pure” perfect people. And what do you mean Only Warren is in jail. Many in FLDS have been convicted of abuse, underage marriage. The fact that Utah and Arizona officals are paid off to do away with convictions is the problem. The perfect fact is that “Dan Barlow” molested all 5 of his daughters and was found guilty, yet given NO jail time, No fines. How much did it cost FLDS to get him off? I sure as hell wish some of the judges in Utah would be indicted!!

    REPLAAAAA: Yes, even senators and governors have acknowledged the goodness of the FLDS folks. Perfect? Maybe not, but YEARNING! That, my child, is something we can all benefit from. Nothing wrong with yearning for good in the world, and this is what they are doing.

    Yes, Warren is the only elect FLDS in jail. You’re posting former FLDS, and then quote past arrests as proof that FLDS are in jail. Most of those, or all of those, are former FLDS, as we all know, so maybe like the Mormon Church, you just want to baptise the whole world into your numeration to beef up your numbers and try desperately to support your claims and your paranoid plotting and maneuvering for some position in the world. Good luck there, poo poo, and doo doo keep that diaper dry.

    Street

  125. These forums are wrought with many diverse and perverse opinions.

    OPINION: To Opine, Allow, or Guess, through feelings and imaginations.

    Some feelings are worn on the sleeve (or the foot, or the groin). Others are deeper, in the heart. Feelings and imaginations are seldom true, because they are not measured of God, the source of all truth. What is His Word on the matter?

    “An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations” (Proverbs 6:18).

    “The Lord understandeth all imaginations…If thou seek Him (the strictness of His Word), He will be found of thee, but if thou forsake Him, He will cast thee off forever” (I Chron.28:9).

    “Thou hast heard their reproach, O Lord, and all their imaginations against me” (Lam.3:61).

    “When ye knew God (or His Word), ye have glorified Him not as God, but became vain in your imaginations, and your foolish heart was darkened. Professing yourselves to be wise, ye became fools (Romans 1:21).

    In the FLDS Church, “the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God, to the pulling down of strongholds, casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ” (2 Cor.10:4).

    Opinions and interpretations on these forums are quite diverse, and subject to the experience and nature of every soul. Until you decipher the signs and patterns of reality, the horizon retreats and the veil remains. Ye stumble on questions that seem so bewildering to young spirits, that life becomes not a problem to be solved, but a reality to be experienced. Many young souls came to this earth only to obtain a body, and a brief experience. This transpires through the projections of the mind, until all questioning is pursued to its last redoubts, and you walk alone into the light, the union of profundity and simplicity, if fate has determined that your experience be extended.

    Through deciphering and assimilation, the remotest past and the infinite future are unveiled, but this is a solitary path that no one can walk for another. Only then cometh the promise and a full redemption. These are all symbolic wheels, until you attain to the priesthood of the true self, of light and grace.

    Street

  126. The true self is the truest part of a man or woman, which is the Prophet over you, if you have any truth at all.

  127. Just a follow up, to give you some foundation: It starts with the Commandments (M-Y), then ascends to the joyful service at the door (H-N), and then into the union of the saints in the Sanctuary of Truth and Glory (T), at which point you are half-way.

    If you study the Tree of Life, you will see it.

  128. Curious, your truth is not my truth. I will let God, if there is one, judge my heart. Your God is evil from my understanding of “truth”.

  129. God didn’t appoint Warren Jeffs curious, warren appointed himself. God doesn’t need a prophet to take care of people, God is quite capable of taking care of those who follow him.
    Flds share NOTHING with humans being anywhere else , except in their own little cult! Christ words weren’t wall yourselves in, and do NOTHING for anyone else. His words were, GO and TELL everywhere across the earth. Feed the Hungry, Clothe the poor. If a man should ask for your coat, give it to him!
    Flds is the definition of GREED!!! SELF-CENTEREDNESS!!! Everyone else not within their walls are evil, dead, gentiles.

  130. Becky! Your “God, IF THERE IS ONE”? Doubting the very existence of God, and then in the same breath you “will let God judge”, is quite a conflict, sister.

    True, one’s truth is not the other’s truth, for the one or the other is a lie if they do not agree, OR they both are.

    Jehovah is good, and Michael became Adam, which is evil, the fall, and Elohim is the equalibrium between the two. Well put, putt putt.

  131. Curious, you might actually study the bible sometime. Lucifer was the angel kicked out of heaven by GOD. And Michael is the Archangel, and was NEVER Adam.
    But, I know facts mean nothing to you,, You follow Joseph Smith, NOT God.

  132. alinusara wrote “What’s grand is you have the freedom in our great nation not to join their faith.”

    Oh, they’re recruiting now???

  133. Correction: Adam is not evil, but Eve, the woman is evil, or Woe-Man. Get it? All women are evil, see? Now has my truth become your truth? Am I gittin warm? Eve and all woman became cursed with a double-curse, but through the righteousness of her man she is redeemed.

    I know you are just loving these truths. You’re coming along just fine.

  134. alinusara, you mean an “outsider” has actually joined? I didn’t know they accepted gentiles?

  135. “The true self is the truest part of a man or woman, which is the Prophet over you, if you have any truth at all.”

    Well thanks for making the argument for us that the profit controls every aspect of your lives. He IS your real self. Teensie, tiny mental health/ boundary propblem there.

  136. We’ll pick you up, dust you off, kick your pants, and then love you more.

  137. alinusara wrote “What’s grand is you have the freedom in our great nation not to join their faith.”

    Oh, they’re recruiting now???
    =============================================
    Why? You want to join up?

  138. You have to have faith first, and repent. Then comes the baptism.

  139. I hate to break it to you Curious, but every human is born with a sin nature, men and women alike.

  140. True. No breaking news there! I guess that’s why you deputy, not top dog. Still, a dog’s a dog, just a mangy mutt. It is the overcoming that changes you from the animal nature to human, and then divine nature, see.

  141. “Why? You want to join up?”

    Who WOULDN’T want to join a fake religious group that produces mysogynists like Street? And Bruce from Montana is following in his footsteps. I mean, what’s not to love?

    (Or was that, where’s the love?)

  142. “Eve and all woman became cursed with a double-curse, but through the righteousness of her man she is redeemed. ”

    heh heh!! Did you hear that Betty?

  143. duane you realize that Street has already proven himself certifiably insane, you trying to follow in his footsteps?

  144. Which one of those is gemsmaker?

  145. duane, twice cursed huh? Then why do women LIVE longer than men?

  146. Christ was also deemed insane, yet He is the gemsmaker. Let us follow in His footsteps, not according to our fantasies and the laws and doctrines of men, but according to the strictness of His Word.

  147. Reply to deputydog1 June 29, 2009 at 8:47 PM
    Why did Christ only live to the ripe old age of 33?

  148. Curious, Im not GOD, so I couldn’t tell you, but then you couldn’t tell me either.

    FLDS, is its own doctrine, its certainly NOT God’s doctrine.

  149. “duane, twice cursed huh? Then why do women LIVE longer than men?”

    Probably so we can suffer longer.

    Come to think of it, I wonder how long the average life expectancy for women in the FLDS is. If their men are so incredibly righteous shouldn’t both the men and women be living to be 100 years old?

  150. Then why do women LIVE longer than men?

    Because you guys nag us to death. 🙂

  151. Duane,

    I’m not going to spend my time arguing with Curious because he is obviously insane for one and fixated on genitalia and elimination functions.

  152. “Why did Christ only live to the ripe old age of 33?”

    Because he was crucified.

    (wtf, mate?)

  153. “Who WOULDN’T want to join a fake religious group that produces mysogynists like Street? ”

    Absolutely. I can only imagine what the recruitment bulletins would look like.

  154. Betty: I have wondered about that also. In our area we have Jehovah Witnesses, LDS missionaries and some of the local Baptists who stop by and leave literature, invite us to church, VBS, etc.
    What would an flds proselyting missionary say or leave? Would they bring up the dress code right off the bat, the plural wives?

    “Yeah, join up: You will have to go live in one of our compounds, live polygamy, follow the one man ruler on his every whim, oh, BTW, he is currently incarcerated. Almost forgot, his assistants have both been indicted.”

    If my husband ever wanted another wife he would get 2 things: 1. A skillet to his head. 2 A divorce with court ordered child support and maybe alimony.

  155. “Yah! The person who sold them the ranch which is solely populated by coyotes, rattlesnakes, and scorpions should be indicted for fraud.”

    I didn’t think coyotes, rattlesnakes and scorpions engaged in polygamy. What do they have to do with dozens’ of families practicing polygamy living in a huge ranch house?

    It seems like every time a valid point is drawn up, none of the ones on here that defend the FLDS can discuss it without bringing some persecution & metaphoric nonsense into the conversation.

    “You would force a woman to stay with a man she doesn’t love against her will?”

    You know that absolutely is not the case with this group. AND if that is your question, then why was Elissa FORCED to stay with Allen? I believe Warren forced her to? Yes, he did. And Fred Jessop backed him up all the way.

    “I most certainly do deny it. 2 people was convicted in Utah in 2006 and had to reimburse the state. Hardly indicative of the membership as a whole.”

    What a joke. How else do you think a bunch of men that have no more than an eighth grade education supports their huge families? THe basic truth is either they went hungry or they went on food stamps.

    If you didn’t notice ( and I believe you do) the Centennial Park group is doing much better financially then the twin towns group. I attribute that to the fact that they allow their children an education (therefore the men are able to find better jobs and take care of their famiies) and the women are allowed to make more of their own choices. They seem to be as modern as you can get while also holding onto the values they feel are important.

    I don’t understand why you don’t see that these women in the FLDS are not making their own choices. They are rarely allowed vehicles unless they are driven by a man. ELissa and Carolyn were the exception to this as they had ownership of a vehicle.

  156. I agree with you Mississippigirl but did want to point out one thing about the Centennial Park group. Although the men may be educated, I believe it is the women that bring in the majority of the income necessary to run those large mansions in CP. I don’t believe that many men in one town are in the position to support so many wives and children.

    I’d also be interested to see the tax returns for these families. It’s interesting that we never hear about the men of CP

  157. mississippi girl,

    If you read the stories of apostate women from polygamy, the resources are divided up according to the whim of the man (or such leadership is delegated to the first or favorite wife) and then the women deal with that as best they can. Irene Spencer and her life long quest for a decent home she can raise her kids in without moving by order of the prophet, does spring to mind.

    I think that the long time habit of officials to look the other way, give light sentences for abuse and such makes people like me want to enforce polygamy laws, whereas consistent prosecution of various abuses might make others more tolerant of polygamy itself. If it’s really so wonderful and God’s way, etc. then families should be able to live it without breaking lots of other laws. Sadly, it doesn’t seem to be the case.

    Carolyn claimed that her vehicle did not have proper plates and tags and she would have been pulled over by police immediately if she left her own community.

    I think another reason that the Centennial Park folks do better is that they do NOT have one man rule. My understanding is that they have a council.

  158. “Probably so we can suffer longer.”

    I knew there was some reason for osteoarthritis. It’s the curse you get for living too long.

  159. I’m pretty sure coyotes are polyamorous. Don’t know about rattlesnakes.

  160. ““Eve and all woman became cursed with a double-curse, but through the righteousness of her man she is redeemed. ”

    heh heh!! Did you hear that Betty?

    duane said this on June 29, 2009 at 8:09 PM

    ========================

    You buying streets preaching there duane? Keep at it, he’ll soon tell you that you married wrong.

  161. Very interesting, nearthecreek! I had not realized that!

  162. ” most certainly do deny it. 2 people was convicted in Utah in 2006 and had to reimburse the state. Hardly indicative of the membership as a whole.

    Alinusara10 said this on June 29, 2009 at 4:41 PM

    ===================

    Alinusara

    Did you read where Winston Blackmores wives were ordered to reimburse 25000 and Winnie is in it for $2 mil in back taxes and penalties, and there are 20-30 more cases they are on them for?

    NAHHH just cuz 20-30 people are in trouble for fraud doesnt mean they are all doing it! ODD huh how we went from 2 to 20-30 cases overnight!?

  163. Betty,

    Wasn’t Irene’s story heartbreaking? The poverty she endured growing up and then in her marriage. She is quite a lady to have retained her sense of humor and made it out of polygamy.

    I am re-reading it again and I really admire someone that can go thru that kind of poverty and come out on the winning side.

  164. Coyotes are a monogamous species and it has been shown that mated pairs breed for life (Bekoff & Wells 1980).

    I wonder if the FLDS claim the coyotes are persecuting them too?

  165. Correction: Adam is not evil, but Eve, the woman is evil, or Woe-Man. Get it? All women are evil, see? Now has my truth become your truth? Am I gittin warm? Eve and all woman became cursed with a double-curse, but through the righteousness of her man she is redeemed.

    I know you are just loving these truths. You’re coming along just fine.

    Curious said this on June 29, 2009 at 6:14 PM

    ===================

    The FLDS women ARE cursed, but fortunately, so far they have avoided being cursed by you. Isn’t that right Sheril?

  166. That is exactly what I am talking about, Stamp.

    When we have proof, no one wants to discuss except for us that are offended.

    I mean are we REALLY REALLY supposed to believe they are not completely taking advantage of the welfare system? How can anyone even defend they aren’t?

    Some public official comes out and says no, we don’t have abuse in the system happening because he wants to ‘SAVE FACE”. Why would they want the public to know? So we can demand reform and accountability?

    I guess that’s my answer.

  167. Why are ya’ll even talking to Steet?

    He will keep spewing his reprobate thoughts and they will get worse, if left to keep posting.

    His mission is to shut this blog down or have it heavily moderated, like every blog his foul writings have touched.

  168. anon at 10:04 am today.

    I came to the same conclusion yesterday. I’m so with you.

  169. Cool, Ron. I was just sort of assuming dogs are dogs, but apparently coyotes are not dogs.

  170. “Wasn’t Irene’s story heartbreaking?”

    She came across very spunky and real to me.

  171. “You buying streets preaching there duane”

    Nah. Duane comes out on the internet to rattle chains and get an argument going. He figured that a sexist remark to me would be surefire. Sorry to disappoint. I’m not feeding the trolls.

  172. Betty,

    Adding to that yeah, Brooke just lost all objectivity – She posts the “Brown family” happy pligs a scruffy longhaired bearded guy with 3 wives and 12 kids – 16 in all – and no mention of what job this guy has – he is unhirable (his appearance) for any job where he would meet the public.

    But Brooke just posts the “Arent they cute? Live and let live” posts, and wont let the tough questions be asked, like how he supports this huge family while looking like a bum.

    WELL the answer is obvious, you me and everybody else pays his food, medical, clothing and shelter costs.

    “HE” doesnt do it! He just stays at home and breeds more.

    But I guess since our nation is so wealthy, we can fund little social experiments like this, and dont bother with the teen girls raised in that, they live it, let THEM be responsible for going forward and doing what mommie did, crank out babies and fund it with welfare, continue the “cute” cycle!

    But Brooke? Nary a hard question asked.

    And here I thought she was attempting to be a journalist – now she is a blog moderater, deleting the tough questions!

    Bet she gets an award from Warren for that!

    And a big hug, squeeze, etc etc.

  173. “I agree with you Mississippigirl but did want to point out one thing about the Centennial Park group. Although the men may be educated, I believe it is the women that bring in the majority of the income necessary to run those large mansions in CP. I don’t believe that many men in one town are in the position to support so many wives and children.

    I’d also be interested to see the tax returns for these families. It’s interesting that we never hear about the men of CP”

    I think you are right about the women working, nearthecreek, which is fine if that’s the way they want to live. Also, as long as the women aren’t married to the man legally I’d imagine they’d have to file as single and probably head of household. So unless people there are receiving state or federal assistance too, it’s probably all good. 😉

    Anonymous 10:04, street will undoubtedly be banned soon and then he can go back to posting his rants on that one polygamy site which gave him his own forum and everyone can continue to ignore him.

  174. Stamp, Brooke has posted my comments on that blog that questioned MA’s “live and let live” philosophy. Perhaps it is your phrasing? (Not trying to be critical, just that you are a little bombastic at times and I get the feeling Brooke is trying to cut down on that.)

  175. Hmmm, at least I think she has…

    Maybe I just submitted that one and it’s waiting for moderation. I’ll check back later and verify it. 😉

  176. Rebeckah,

    No, my post was actually less intense than above, but I did address about his appreance and how he could bring home the funds needed for 16 people, and that there was a need to find out these things.

    Instead we get posts from people like “Look at the perfect family” when we all know there are LOTS of issues that are not only hidden, but kept from even being ASKED?

    I mentioned the guy could get royalties from an internet game he invented, or an inheritance, but its obvious this isnt a suit and tie wage earner. Looking at him I would say he is “Classical habitual unemployed” and it isnt healthy to put up somebody like that as an example without the entire story.

    Which has been a problem on her site, habitual spin.

    Her blog will grind to a halt, I wont even bother with it anymore unless its open, but I WILL point to her bias – its like a spin off of TruthisStale.org.

    She should rename it THE PRO PLURAL LIFE so people arent ambushed by lies and spin.

  177. I don’t know, Stamp, I know a lot of computer tech people who look just like Mr Brown. Nobody in a tech support situation wears ‘business attire’ anymore; khaki dockers and a golf shirt is dressed up manager clothes in a computer biz.

    I agree with Rebeckah, he seems awful young to be the father of 13 year olds. He was either 18 when he got started, or there are some other fathers involved, or he looks much younger than he is. He didn’t look much over 30 to me.

    He didn’t SAY he has three wives. He introduces children of three women, shows only one. One of those children is the only child of a woman who is not shown and that child is the oldest child there. First wife left when he got second wife? Plural wife joined recently who already had a child? Just how long has this family been together?

    I thought the answer from the wife was telling “my kids are MY kids. But, yeah, I’ll take the others.” FEEL the LOVE. I’m sure that communal child raising thing is going swimmingly. I wonder how much of their time they actually spend all together like that playing board games and such?

  178. Computer techs make much less than they did years ago. Oh, its possible he has an income stream, trust fund, whatever to pay for all of them – but I am not struck with that at all.

    Thats why I think the call for more info is reasonable, instead of a major newspaper saying “Oh, LOOKY, the perfect Plyg family, we FINALLY foound one, and they are the BROWNS not like the GREENS!”

    SHEESH, that post really pegs the gullibility meter for Brooke.

    I think she really in her mind buys into this crap. And why tell “the rest of the story” as Paul Harvey used to say?

  179. ““it is necessary to know who holds the keys of power, and who does not or we are likely to be deceived.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 336)”

    Well Joe it aint Warren Jeffs and your people have been ambushed.

  180. My husband is in the next room wearing yoga pants, a Jerry Garcia concert t-shirt and making 6 figures, matching 401K funds and has 5 weeks of vacation. His son works as a network technician and is making about $70K. I got a job offer from a friend a month or so ago to work for $80K as a DBA, a significant step down in pay from my last job.

    I think you are right to raise the question, but wrong to assume that he is a bum because he has shaggy hair and was wearing a sweatshirt in the video. Sorry.

  181. “WELL the answer is obvious, you me and everybody else pays his food, medical, clothing and shelter costs.”

    Stamp…and you know this how? Oh! Because he is a polygamist…stereotyping and well I just can’t say anything else about you here.
    The same arguments made about polygamists were made about Gays.
    Anita Bryant’s campaign against gays in the ’70’s was called “Save our Children”.

    Also stamp, my wife is mostly apathetic when it comes to polygamy but gets riled up about immigration issues. I showed her your post about how illegals are supported by welfare, told her these kinds of remarks are typical of plyg haters…chapped her off pretty good. Granted, she is only 1 person but surely many others have read your comments.

    Keep it up Stamp, we love to hear how you really feel.

  182. I DO love to hear how Stamp, Betty, Lady Sadie,Deputydog, Ron, GFNY, FLDS Texas, and a whole lot of others on here feel, Duane.

    And if you would ever stop arguing with everyone and discuss the issue and face the facts, we might want to listen to you too.

    In fact, most of the time I don’t even post because they say it so effectively and much better than I ever could. 🙂

  183. duane

    What, you want proof that Americans are against illegal immigration, and that the illegals drain resources?

    Here is a littls story. A builder nearby a house I owned go into a dispute with the illegal aliens who were putting up the drywall.

    They torched the place. Ive had illegal aliens burglarize my house – twice. (owner of the burglary car was an illegal – in prison – a neighbor saw his freinds load my stuff in the car)

    And yet I dont have anything against the Mexican people. You MIGHT THINK I do but I dont. Evidently you missed the long exhcange Maayan and I had about the issue.

  184. duane

    IRT to the “Perfect plyg family” (ha!) I just raise the Q. As I said he may be a trust fund baby, an inventor, or hold some backdoor job – but he doesnt strike me as a six-figure man.

    Its Big Love but the daddy is scruffy and no he doesnt own a string of hardware stores, looking like that.

    I just dont buy it. Brooke did, but I dont think a reasonable person would think he has some job that pays for the expenses of that crowd of people.

    Or maybe you can find out and share with the class?

  185. I do question how the polygamous family has such a large and luxurious house in that video. Leaving aside questions of the guy’s appearance, how does anyone that YOUNG have so much? I know lots of couples in their early to mid-thirties who both the work, they have three kids, and they are struggling to stay in a normal sized suburban home. Let’s say in this family, two wives work and one stays home. That’s three paychecks for 16 people – or the equivalent of one income for a five person family. I have lived and fed people communally and I know that there are economies of scale, but I don’t think 16 people, most of them kids qualify for that. Four cans of tomatoes is not any cheaper per can than one – it’s not until you can buy and use restaurant cans of tomatoes that you start to do better. So, yeah, I question a lot of the benefit.

    There is another thought. You can live communally and get lots of benefits, without the sexual connection. No reason you can’t share housework and baby sitting without sharing your sex partner. People do this quietly all over the US. The mentality that connects the two (you have to give up sexual favors to get the “benefits”) that bothers me, and IMHO, creates mental health problems.

  186. Another thing about the Brown video is that it is a short clip from the whole program. The clip was presented to you tube by Anne Wilde who is on the board of Principle Voices. Wonder what the rest of the show had in it?

  187. duane, I finally found your perfect polygamous family:

  188. Centinnel Park is a little different than FLDS compounds. First of all that video Brooke has shown isn’t completely clear. All those children don’t belong to that ONE man. Many Polygamist’s husbands marry women who already had children.
    Personally, I don’t care what the man does for a living, and both or one of his wives probably work also outside the home.
    Im just sick of the fact, the whole damn thing is against the law!!
    If these”wealthy” polygamists want to change the law, then take it to the supreme court!!!! If the supreme court once again upholds Reynolds, then by God the LE should crack down on lawbreakers!!

  189. By the way, If I was an Illegal alien in another country, I wouldn’t get food stamps,welfare or social security and they SHOUDLN’T get those things IN USA either!!

  190. “Ive had illegal aliens burglarize my house – twice. (owner of the burglary car was an illegal – in prison – a neighbor saw his freinds load my stuff in the car)”

    Crime rates are highest among african Americans, what about them?
    Perhaps you should move to a low crime suburban neighhorhood.

    Betty, you answered your own queston, economies of scale add up very quickly. all else being equal ie land prices, the price per sq. foot of a home drops off very quickly. Mortgage, cable, and utilities are fixed costs…expense per person drops. The only costs that go up are pretty much food, clothing, and medical. Purchasing bulk at Same’s club, bulk clothing, 3 paychecks..perhaps 3 different medical plans to choose from…very feasible.
    I’d bet a mutliple income polyg household does very well.

    Also, polygamy does not cause poverty, poverty is caused by low productivity…basic econ 101.

    Short Creek is not poor becasue of polygamy, it is poor becasue of lack of jobs and opportunities…the UEP seizure has made it much much worse since FLDS aren’t going to invest in property that they have no control over…of coure that was the intention of the UEP siezure…an attempt to destroy the social integrity of the FLDS folks. Based on some posts by FLDS, it seems they are even more convinced their religion is the correct one as a result of all the civil and legal pressure being put on them. Not quite the result that anti-plygs expected.

  191. deputydawg, don’t listen to stamp. Illegal aliens don’t qualify for welfare, nor do they desire it. They come here to work!

  192. Duane, perhaps you should apply to be a researcher for the United Nations, which asserts that the cultural practice of polygamy does indeed always force women and children into poverty.

    I’m sure they are all holding their breath waiting for your resume to come in.

  193. Well my post HASN’T been put up yet. Brooke might still accept it, I don’t really know how long it takes her to moderate a post and accept it or not. Does she send some sort of a message if she rejects it? I know I don’t see it up anymore with the “waiting for moderation” message. Just a quick update.

  194. “which asserts that the cultural practice of polygamy does indeed always force women and children into poverty. ”

    No boots you are flat out wrong, poverty is essentially “lack of stuff”, if people don’t produce much “stuff” then they will be poor. If in a poor country, a women is denied the right to enter into a polygamist relationship…she will still be poor…all else being equal…she is probably better off financially in a poor country since it is the wealthier men who have polyg marriages. In many cases, 1/4 of a prosperous merchant is better that all of a peasent farmer.

  195. Duane, we almost agree on this one. When I was up in the Arizona/California/Nevada/Utah area I saw true hate for illegal aliens. I don’t recall ever seeing or hearing much BS like that here in Texas. We’ve always had a porus border and we’re comfortable with it, except for the drugs.

    Every Mexican I have ever known that came here has done so for the same reason our own families did, to work and make a better life for their children.

    There are always more criminals in any first generation group which comes here and struggles with poverty. The same was true of the massive Italian, Irish and Jewish immigrants which came to America.

    I don’t think the comparison to polygamy holds, since by the second or third generation assimilation and prosperity take over.

    Ploygamists use the system because they are encouraged by those in government authority to do so. See my latest post on the Saftey Net Shinnanigans coming up this August… http://tripleap.blogspot.com/

    I’m surprised the Utah government hasn’t started a “Saftey Net” for drug dealers, Meth manufacturers, Human traffickers or modern proponents of slavery, yet. But if we give them enough time, who knows?

  196. I recommend that we not feed the trolls. If we starve them, maybe they will go elsewhere. I hear that Brooke’s blog has a dearth of posters. Let the trolls go there.

  197. Ale Wife,

    Noted and agreed. I’m tired of them and really do have better things to work on. Thanks for the reminder.

    k.Dee

  198. Well Rebeckah she didn’t publish my comment on the Safety Net July Meeting but did update her post with my suggestion, so who knows how she is going to do this “moderating” business. Sure looks like she is cherry picking posts and only publishing ones that don’t disagree with her or don’t put any bad light on the FLDS and polygamy in general.

  199. DesNews article on the cows. It seems to be another exflds/nonflds –flds battle

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705313908/FLDS-want-judge-to-revoke-sale-of-cows.html

    “Attorneys for Wisan say the sale does not violate court orders. They contend the sale benefits the farm because a portion of proceeds paid off farm debts. They also say the sale contract allows the FLDS to repurchase the cows.
    The cows were sold to Jonathan and Hyrum Harker, whose father left the FLDS Church years ago. The brothers have been running the farm for Wisan for more than a year.”

  200. duane, excuse me,YES if an illegal alien gets sick and has to go to the hospital,they get free treatment!! If I get sick (citizen) go to hospital, they either charge my insurance, or if I don’t have insurance, then I get a HUGE bill that will take me years to pay off!
    And Now Obama is trying to make it possible for illegal aliens to get social security!!

  201. “YES if an illegal alien gets sick and has to go to the hospital,they get free treatment!!”

    True enough but the amount they contribute is more that they take in from public services. Most illegals are young and healthy.

    Boots, illegal aliens are in fact breaking the law nevertheless, most of them are good people just as in most polygamists are good people who other than their partner arrangements are decent folk.

    I’m sorry but I don’t equate crack dealers with a man co-habbing with 3 women and having 10 kids with them.

  202. My gosh, Duane, are you nuts? Have you read Irene Spencer’s book or Susan Schmidt’s book?

    All of those families were living in poverty due the the number of children and how large the families were. The men were coming to the States to work and send the paychecks home and it was NEVER ENOUGH.
    It was “NEVER ENOUGH’ because there wasn’t enough to go around!!!!
    Now what about Irene’s childhood? oh yes, they lived in abject poverty too… Most of her “mothers” ended up leaving Morris Kunz because he DIDN’T PROVIDE for his families.
    How many cases of poverty and neglect must you see to know that in this day , it takes ALOT to raise a child, much less 15 of them. And when you only have a junior high education, how much money can one man make and provide for multiple families…..basic econ-101

  203. Sign posted here: DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!!

  204. me too, ale wife, I am sick of feeding them too.

    It’s useless. They’re useless.

  205. Amen to what ale wife and mmississippigirl said re: troll feeding.
    Liked your poster Ark.person

  206. You know, it’s kind of funny because I was in a monagomous marriage where my husband wanted me to work, clean the home and care for the children, and turn my paycheck over to him. I figured out after a few years that I could do all that AND keep control of my money if I wasn’t married to him. ;D

  207. A poor monogamist couple in Appalachia raising 5 kids likewise is in the same predicament. I would bet the poverty rate is even worse in some areas of Eastern TN, KY, and West Virgina.
    True many polygamist familes are relatively poor but many are rather prosperous. Carolyn Jessop earned a bachelor’s degree and became a certified teacher when she was in the FLDs. Her family did ok financially. This FLDS family seems to be doing quite well:
    http://pa.photoshelter.com/search?I_DSC=jessop&U_ID=U0000dDhHaBk5kKY&I_USER_ID=U0000dDhHaBk5kKY&I_DSC_AND=t&_ACT=usrSearch

    Many families in CP live quite nicely. There are poor and rich in polyg families as well as monig families.

  208. OMG- not feeding troll…not feeding troll… not feeding troll.

    Carolyn Jessop’s family DID NOT DO WELL at all, she talks about this in her book and the lack of nutritious foods that were not available to them because of the MONEY SITUATION. They ate mostly pasta with a tomato sauce mixed in.

    JUST FYI for any one posting and not knowing what they are talking about.

  209. duane the only families in FLDS that did quite well had the last name Jeffs, Jessop, Steed, Nielson or Barlow! And how did they do quite well? They STOLE from the OFFERING PLATE of the Poor peons who believed if they didn’t give everything they earned, they were going to HELL!

  210. OK, lets look at Pulaski County in Virginia. That’s just about as Appalachia as you can get. It has very little industry, a few large colleges and a lot of farms and forrests. Here are the 2000 census figures via Wikipedia.

    Pulaski:
    “The median income for a household in the town was $25,481, and the median income for a family was $36,339. Males had a median income of $28,054 versus $20,177 for females. The per capita income for the town was $21,338. About 16.1% of families and 21.8% of the population were below the poverty line, including 30.7% of those under age 18 and 19.2% of those age 65 or over.”

    Now, let’s compare that to Hilldale, Utah:
    “The median income for a household in the city was $32,679, and the median income for a family was $31,750. Males had a median income of $25,170 versus $16,071 for females. The per capita income for the city was $4,782. About 37.0% of families and 41.2% of the population were below the poverty line, including 42.0% of those under age 18 and 31.8% of those age 65 or over.”

    The average household size in Pulaski county is 2.7. The average household size in Hilldale is 8.1. The number of families living below the poverty line in Hilldale is more than twice that of Pulaski county.

    In Hilldale, males make less money, females make A LOT less money, families make less money and families are a lot larger. The per capita income is ONE FOURTH of the per capita in Pulaski County.

    DUH! Polygamy reduces the ratio between children and adult wage earners and care givers.

    This is also an interesting tidbit about Hilldale:
    “The median age was 13 years. For every 100 females there were 96.2 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there were 75.8 males.”

    Pulaski:
    “The median age was 40 years. For every 100 females there were 87.8 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there were 83.4 males.

  211. Blackmore married 9 child brides

    I wonder if Canada is going to do anything about that.

  212. Oh and just to head it off at the pass, let’s look at Wiki’s census information for the county that has the most Old Amish folks in the US, Holmes County, PA.

    The average family size was 3.82. The median age was 28 years. For every 100 females there were 99.60 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there were 95.50 males.

    The median income for a household in the county was $36,944, and the median income for a family was $40,230. Males had a median income of $28,490 versus $20,602 for females. The per capita income for the county was $14,197. About 10.50% of families and 12.90% of the population were below the poverty line, including 17.40% of those under age 18 and 13.30% of those age 65 or over.

  213. Ron in Houston,

    If he had sodomized 9 boys they might do something but these are just little girls, and that’s obviously what the’re FOR, don’t you know?

    How else can you explain away any government’s complete lack of action against the monsters who use them this way?

    Betty, I wish you were a man, so I could throw you down and kiss you all over!

  214. And Ron, at least one of those under aged girls was an American citizen. Hmmmmm. Wonder how she got there?

  215. This is the problem I see in canada,,, Yup he married 9 little girls, but how many years ago???? This has been the problem all along in every freaking case. When it happened and authorities knew it, they did NOTHING!!!
    Same in Utah and Arizona and even Texas. The only difference is in Texas, you didn’t have little girls running away,or trying to get help! In utah and arizona you did , but LE did squat about it.
    Now these same girls are now WOMEN! So what does LE do now in Canada or USA?

  216. “The only difference is in Texas, you didn’t have little girls running away,or trying to get help!”

    I think the guard house, the security cameras, the barbed wire all played a part in that.

  217. Burp! O my gracious! Pardon me.

  218. Boots,

    Aw, shucks. It weren’t nothin’, ma’am.

  219. Duane said:
    “poverty is caused by low productivity…basic econ 101″…

    That’s true. Low productivity and poverty are the invariable consequences of a totalitarian social structure. And you are quite right; that is “basic econ 101”.

  220. Not just for men….

    http://punditkitchen.com/2009/06/30/political-pictures-mahmoud-ahmedinejad-balls-steel/

  221. LMAO, Betty! I love it! Balls truly are a state of mind.

  222. Nothing cuts your economic productivity like having one baby per year.

  223. Alinusara

    Did you read where Winston Blackmores wives were ordered to reimburse 25000 and Winnie is in it for $2 mil in back taxes and penalties, and there are 20-30 more cases they are on them for?

    NAHHH just cuz 20-30 people are in trouble for fraud doesnt mean they are all doing it! ODD huh how we went from 2 to 20-30 cases overnight!?
    ============================================================
    If I remember right I was talking about US Citizens not Canadian Citizens. Since we are on that topic however I do remember 2 of Blackmore wives being asked to reimburse the Canadian government for overpayment. I’m not sure how you take 2 from Utah and 2 women from Canada, add them together and come up with the numbers 20 to 30.

  224. Well, I’m going to stick my neck way out. As a secular humanist/agnostic/atheist (I’ll let whoever apply whatever label they wish), I think a big problem is this meme that “we must respect other’s beliefs.” I think this is what causes governments from stamping out the abuses that are religious polygamy. I think that is what a lot of the PPSG rely on as their “oh you’re just religious bigots” theme.

    I say no. The idea that God says it’s OK to knock up young girls (as argued by many religious polygamists [or wannabes] on this board) is an idea that deserves NO respect. It is a toxic meme that should be stamped out in modern society.

    So Duane call me whatever you wish. Religious polygamy is an anachronism from a bunch of bronze age goat herders. It deserves no respect. It (and any religion that embraces it) should be eradicated from modern civilized society.

  225. And duane is YET AGAIN wrong as to the poorest part of the United States, Appalachia barely gets a mention, South Dakota earns that honor….so lets compare the poorest county in the United States with Hildale, UT and Colorado City, AZ

    Buffalo County, South Dakota

    The median income for a household in the county was $12,692, and the median income for a family was $14,167. Males had a median income of $18,650 versus $19,554 for females. The per capita income for the county was $5,213, the lowest in the nation. About 55.70% of families and 56.90% of the population were below the poverty line, including 61.50% of those under age 18 and 50.40% of those age 65 or over.

    Hildale, UT

    The median income for a household in the city was $32,679, and the median income for a family was $31,750. Males had a median income of $25,170 versus $16,071 for females. The per capita income for the city was $4,782. About 37.0% of families and 41.2% of the population were below the poverty line, including 42.0% of those under age 18 and 31.8% of those age 65 or over.

    Colorado City, AZ

    The median income for a household in the town was $32,826, and the median income for a family was $32,344. Males had a median income of $24,429 versus $22,969 for females. The per capita income for the town was $5,293. About 29.0% of families and 31.9% of the population were below the poverty line, including 34.5% of those under age 18 and 6.3% of those age 65 or over.

    So in the POOREST place in the United States

    POOREST Place = 55.70% of families below poverty level/
    Hildale = 37% and CC = 29.0% of families below poverty level

    POOREST Place = 56.90% population below poverty level/
    Hildale = 41.2% and CC = 31.9% population below poverty level

    Seems both Hildale and Colorado City are very close to the POOREST Place in the United State with percentages below the poverty level.

  226. Love your post Ron! I totally agree with it!

  227. And lets look at the per capata income, which is really what counts when you look at what can be expended on each individual:

    POOREST Place = $5,213
    Hildale = $4,782
    CC = $5,293

    So actually Hildale has less to spend on each individual living there then even the POOREST Place in the United States.

  228. Ron wrote “It deserves no respect.”

    Poetry. Thank you.

  229. Sadie, according to your figures, the average female income in Hilldale is lower than the same amount in the poorest county in the US.

    But they have a choice, right?

  230. Yep, Betty what a choice! Just keep cranking out those babies, and now that the construction industry has tanked who wants to put money down that the next census puts Hildale right there with the POOREST Place or even POORER?

    Because as we are told all the time that construction is the main industry of the FLDS.

  231. I give a standing ovation to Ron!

  232. Ron wrote: “Well, I’m going to stick my neck way out. As a secular humanist/agnostic/atheist (I’ll let whoever apply whatever label they wish), I think a big problem is this meme that ‘we must respect other’s beliefs.’ I think this is what causes governments from stamping out the abuses that are religious polygamy. I think that is what a lot of the PPSG rely on as their ‘oh you’re just religious bigots’ theme.

    Guess what, Ron? As an evangelical Christian, I agree 100%. Some beliefs are not worth respecting, and they reflect poorly on those that are.

    There is considerable nonsense bandied around about what the free exercise clause means, isn’t there?

    (BTW, thanks for the Blackmore link. What is the statute of limitations on the Mann Act again?)

  233. Like I’ve always said, there is enough abuse in polygamy to offend us all, regardless of our faith or political leanings.

    Wrong is wrong, just like slavery.

  234. I haven’t really called anyone a bigot but a couple types have given me pause.

    Those who continually state something outrageous about the FLDS people without any documentation or citations backing up their statement.

    Those who throw all the members of the FLDS community into a single category when we know that the memberships personal philosophy varies from Warren Jeffs, for example, to people who won’t start a vehicle without fastening their seatbelt first.

  235. Another thing I wonder, vis-à-vis the Human Trafficking Act, is whether teen boys were sent to BC to work for Winston & Co. or James Oler & Co.

  236. Like I’ve always said, there is enough abuse in polygamy to offend us all, regardless of our faith or political leanings.
    =============================================================
    I dunno. If they are adult women making that choice on their own then more power to them.

  237. Alin, how does thinking a religious belief is stupid, brutish, and a one-way ticket to hell make a person a bigot?

  238. Did you know Utah is the only state in which Rape exceeds the national average?

    http://www.justice.utah.gov/Research/SexOffender/RapeInUtah.pdf

  239. Ali, how many adult women not born into this cult, not indoctrined from birth by this cult, not told they can not get to the highest level of heaven unless they submit to the wishes of the profit, that their family can not get to the highest level of heaven unless the woman submits to the wishes of the profit have made the choice to be FLDS?

  240. Another thing I wonder, vis-à-vis the Human Trafficking Act, is whether teen boys were sent to BC to work for Winston & Co. or James Oler & Co
    =====================================================
    Human trafficing would be so hard to prove. It’s not uncommon for children to have family members living in different states or Canada for that matter and to visit said family over the holidays.

  241. Yeah, Alin, my family is always sending little girls on holiday to get spiritually married to some old goat in Canada so he can add her to his harem. Oh wait, NOT.

    Good grief.

  242. Ali, how many adult women not born into this cult, not indoctrined from birth by this cult, not told they can not get to the highest level of heaven unless they submit to the wishes of the profit, that their family can not get to the highest level of heaven unless the woman submits to the wishes of the profit have made the choice to be FLDS?
    =====================================================
    I was indoctrinated by my cult to believe the only way to get to heaven was to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as my personal savior.
    ========================================================
    Alin, how does thinking a religious belief is stupid, brutish, and a one-way ticket to hell make a person a bigot?
    =========================================================
    I don’t recall you making any outrageous claims without documentation or lumping them all into a single category so my hat is off to you.

  243. Yeah, Alin, my family is always sending little girls on holiday to get spiritually married to some old goat in Canada so he can add her to his harem. Oh wait, NOT.

    Good grief.
    ===========================================================
    I dunno. There was one 17 year old girl, single, no children, Canadian who was visiting her grandmother down on that ranch and end up being put in foster care for 2 months until the appeals process kicked in so the precedent is set.

  244. You didn’t anwswer my question Ali, just tried to divert it so I will ask again:

    Ali, how many adult women not born into this cult, not indoctrined from birth by this cult, not told they can not get to the highest level of heaven unless they submit to the wishes of the profit, that their family can not get to the highest level of heaven unless the woman submits to the wishes of the profit have made the choice to be FLDS?

    My question was not about your cult unless you are now admitting to being FLDS.

  245. Ahhh, so now Ali is finally admitting that the 17 year old Canadian girl WAS sent to YFZ to get married to some old goat.

  246. Polygamy—whether or not all parties are adults, brainwashed into a cult, or even nuts enough to think it’s a good idea—is a third-degree felony. It is distinct from bigamy, defined as cohabitating with more than one spouse at a time in purported exercise of the right of plural marriage.

  247. Whoever Alin is, she’s obviously a supporter of the illegal cultural practice of polygamy, for whatever reason I don’t particularly care.

    It is a completely illegal practice and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, regardless of the gender or religion of the person who is doing it.

    Maybe she’s writing from Centenial park, or from inside the House of Yaweh in Abilene, doesn’t even matter. In her imagination there is some sort of constitutional protection for it.

    Fortunately for the rest of us, out here in the real world, we know better.

    If you practice polygamy in Texas, get ready to go to jail and quit producing children to feed your cult leaders.

  248. Thanks, Deputy Dog, for that final nail in the coffin of the theory that polygamy satisfies men’s out-of-control sex drive.

    The media coverage about rape in South Africa included this about their rapist, polygamist president: “We hear men saying, ‘If Jacob Zuma can have many wives, I can have many girlfriends. The hyper-masculine rhetoric of the Zuma campaign is going to set back our work in challenging the old model of masculinity.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/17/south-africa-rape-survey

  249. Sure, some boys might argue that they visited Granny in Calgary, but if they lingered a while to work at Winston’s logging operation for no wages, that would be human trafficking, every bit as much as if they were sold to Bahrain.

    On June 1, 2009, the long-awaited passport requirement for travel to and from Canada came into effect. How does that affect travel between Idaho and BC? Does anyone even patrol the border there?

  250. Pouring out all these statistics to justify repression of an entire class of people is really sad. I’ll still argue that there are big chunks of Appalachia that are poorer than short creek.
    List standard deviations, etc…Also many short creekers get food from the storehouse, property tax money is communal, and so on
    As Mark Twain “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics”.

    The age of consent in Canada was 14 until 2005, currently it is 16, at any rate his youngest wife was 16 when she had a child and perhaps when she conceived. Sorry but he didn’t break any stat rape laws…nope sorry nada…that is why they can’t get him on that cuz he didn’t break those laws.
    There is quite a lot of anthemia against older men with young women. Look how Anne Nicole Smith was vilified in the media for marrying that old fart. I wonder if much of it is fueled by middle age women who subconsciously feel angst and fear that their husband may ditch them for a younger woman.
    What you guys don’t seem to understand, just because you find something “gross” doesn’t mean it is ok to outlaw it. What about a 16 year old boy who marries a 70 year old granny and consummates the marriage? I think that would be gross as well but the marriage age is 16 in Texas, just because I find it repulsive doesn’t mean we should make it illegal. The reason homosexuals were repressed for so long was mainly as result of the fervid imaginations of “decent folk”, Personally, the idea of bedding with a hairy stinky dude is pretty gross as well, but I don’t have right to tell another person who they can sleep with.
    It (and any religion that embraces it) should be eradicated from modern civilized society.
    Ron, “religious” polygamy should be eradicated as opposed to “secular” polygamy which is more commonly referred to as Polyamory? The problem with this is and it is so friggin’ obvious, you cannot make an activity illegal based on religious motivation while the same activity would be legal as long as the motivation behind it is not “religious” without blatantly violating the First Amendment. It is not going to happen!! Even assuming that the bigamy laws aren’t shot down by the Supreme court, if the Mormon fundies simply stop referring to them as “wives” and call them “mistresses” in public, even stop references to “wives” in their written records, then on what evidence would charge them with bigamy while excluding a polyamorist triad? As a lawyer, I would expect you would know that. Ron please explain how you would legally distinguish between a secular poly household and a law breaking polygamist household without violating the first amendment. Perhaps you can make it a topic on your bloga

  251. Boots, I’m a agnostic secular man whose wife is 1 year my junior, yet support the right to practice polygamist, poly or whatever you want to call it whether for religious reasons or not.

    Try as you guys might, Religious polygamists are not going away anytime soon! You are just spinning your wheels. The reason I support Mormon fundies so much is not because I’m interested in it, but to counter the shameless bigotry and peverse hysteria being leveled against them. I hope they expand and prosper if for no other reason than to see you guys in hysterical fits. How can anyone dare to tell another adult who they can cohab and sleep with based on their spiritual motivations??
    Of course, I’m talking about individuals who are above the age of consent.

  252. so what if a 17 year old girl went to Bountiful to marry that “old goat” winston blackmore, so what?? 17 is LEGAL in Canada whether you like it or not.

  253. good night

  254. good riddance

  255. How can anyone dare tell another adult who they can cohab and sleep with based on their spiritual motivations??
    *******************************
    DUANE IT HAS NOTHING TO WITH SPIRITUAL MOTIVATIONS! IT HAS TO DO WITH THE LAW OF THE LAND! SUPREME COURT CASE DECIDED WHO COULD SLEEP WITH WHOM ON THE REYONALDS CASE. AND HASN’T CHANGED ITS MIND SINCE THE CASE WAS DECIDED IN 1878.

  256. DD, bless yer heart, friends don’t let friends feed the trolls.

    You’ve helped me before, now go pour a big scotch & soda and forget about the troll. We need you, and all your arteries in tact.

  257. LOL Boots!! Im fine! 🙂

  258. You guys feed off each other with ever more vitrolic posts till it reaches a crescendo of seething and hysterical hatred.

  259. Boots, how did the picnic go in San Angelo?

  260. duane, I have my fingers in my ears,and my tongue sticking out at you!!! FOOL!!!! LOL

  261. Deputydawg, in 1878 homosexuality, adultery, and fornication were all illegal and actively prosecuted against!!

  262. And today duane, bigamy, sexual assault, rape of minors are actively prosecuted against!!!!! Got it!! You live in Texas bubba, you follow the laws of Texas or you spend time in the hoosgow!!

  263. We don’t BREED women in Texas duane!

  264. Ditto DD!

    The picnic was very small and quiet. The nice thing about that was I got to know everyone who came. I wish I had a huge advertising budget and it could have been a blow out, but like granny always said, “if wishes were horses poor men would ride”.

    I have to say I was impressed with the quality of the people who did come, especially several young girls who want to start fundraising and building awaeness of the issue in their schools.

    Although the picnic wasn’t huge, the contacts we made were invaluable. I’m still not finished returning all the wondwerful emails from people across the state, and many have asked that I come back to their community to give presentations to their service groups.

    If I can hold on financially until the org can actually keep me afloat, we’ll be doing well.

    All in all, we did very well and had some exciting moments along the way. I was a tad freaked out when our safe house in Abilene got the mysterious package in the mail after we left, but I’m sure that will be the end of it now that we aren’t there with our faces all over the TV.

    Flora appeared on both the KENS 5 morning show in San Antonio, as well as WOAI’s morning show…and we got over 600 hits to the website in one day. We were also interviewed by Texas Monthly for a piece that will come out closer to the trials. You should have seen the gals face when we showed her the Michael O. Leavitt connection! She was thrilled the other reporter let her take the story, grinned and said, “Oh he’s going to be sorry he let this one go”.

    We got a great foundation laid, and that was the whole point of the tour.

  265. Awesome Boots!!! I know alot of folks have been going to websites we frequent and leaving your website and this website for information.
    Just a little tidbit for you. Robert Mueller, head of FBI, when he was chosen to head FBI, he got rid of alot of agents, some higher ups. And quess what he recruited for communications dept???
    He recruited from the Mormon church!! He is an espiscapalian, but supposedly Mormons have special skills in communications equipment etc!!

  266. Actually, it is estimated that up to 70% of our FBI and CIA agents are mainstream LDS, a recruiting technique that has been in place for at least the last 25-30 years or so. They don’t drink, drug, smoke, or gamble, and they know how to keep secrets.

    And we wonder why the feds are so disinterested in prosecuting the crime of polygamy?

    More things to make you go Hmmmmm…

  267. YUP!

  268. “I wonder if Canada is going to do anything about that.”

    Ron, the article said that when he married them the age of consent in Canada was 14. Too bad it didn’t dawn on Canada earlier that teen girls really aren’t ready to start making reproductive decisions at 14. 😦

  269. Greetings,
    We have border crossing places and yes, there are boarder patrols. Like the Mexican boarder, there’s a lot of territory to cover, but people do have to work at it to flit from one side to the other. There’s even an article somewhere about weapon paraphanalia found in the trunk of one of Warren’s lieutenant’s cars before Warren was taken into custody.

    I live in Spokane, Washington, which is right next to both Idaho and Canada. A lot of Canadian ladies used to charter buses sometimes to come to Spokane to go shopping at one of our larger fabric/sewing chains to get quilting fabrics. (I worked there for a while. They moved the store out to the Spokane Valley so I don’t know if the ladies still make their trips a few times a year or not.)

  270. Too tired from taking the kids to the pool — “border” patrol. 😆

  271. Okay, for all you racists out there…

    For all you plural wives…

    And for all you men with tight pants…

    And I have done my good deed for the week.

  272. alin @6:02

    ” take 2 from Utah and 2 women from Canada, add them together and come up with the numbers 20 to 30.”

    Read the article about Winnie owing $2 MILLION.

    It says they are investigating 20-30 MORE cases of IRS fraud amongst them.

    The point is you cant “reduce to the rediculous” that the FLDS are not committing fraud, just because they arent being publically caught yet or publicized.

    A lot of US IRS issues are handled between parties and simply dont make the news, though I think they should.

  273. Hat tip to Ron! ANOTHER bell ringer!

  274. Brooke scooped by the AP

    =============================================

    Court-appointed CPA rejects settlement proposal

    © 2009 The Associated Press

    July 1, 2009, 5:43AM

    SALT LAKE CITY —

    A court-appointed accountant says he can’t back a settlement proposal that gives the majority of a property trust’s assets back to a polygamous church run by Warren Jeffs.

    Court papers filed Tuesday by attorneys for Bruce Wisan say the proposal violates a court order that requires the United Effort Plan Trust to benefit individuals, not the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

    The trust is an arm of the FLDS church and holds most of the land and homes in Hildale, Utah and Colorado City, Ariz. It was founded on a religious principal that calls for the communal sharing of assets.

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/6506086.html

  275. Edwards County home of the ‘Devils Sinkhole’ state natural area, seems to be the latest ranchland acquisition area for the FLDS sect nearby Rocksprings. I think there is alot of irony in the FLDS Church wanting land in this region, maybe legal payments can be made quicker by just going to the sinkhole.

  276. So whadda they gonna call it? HOOT 2?

    Maybe duane will get his wish and they will all move out there.

    “HOOTERS OF DEVIL’S S HOLE”

  277. Why would they want MORE of Texas?

  278. duane wrote “so what if a 17 year old girl went to Bountiful to marry that “old goat” winston blackmore, so what?? 17 is LEGAL in Canada whether you like it or not.”

    But is it legal according to US laws to move a 17 year old to Canada so that you can impregnate her? Or is that a Mann Act violation?

  279. duane wrote “Pouring out all these statistics to justify repression of an entire class of people is really sad. ”

    Translate: even though you whipped my butt with facts, I won’t concede that I was wrong.

    “I’ll still argue that there are big chunks of Appalachia that are poorer than short creek.”
    Base on what? Pictures from the Great Depression? Have you ever been to Appalachia? Do you have some fantasy from the Deliverance movie or something?

    If you think that you can find a town in Appalachia poorer than Hilldale, you are welcome to pour over the maps and the census data and find it. Ought to keep you quiet for awhile.

    Why can’t you accept that one man having 20 children is bad for the CHILDREN!?!?

  280. Here’s another article about poverty in the US. It lists the poorest and richest states. Please note that Virginia (where Appalachia is) is amongst the richest, probably skewed by Northern VA (DC suburbs). Also note in the list of the poorest, that over half of those states have a median household income greater than in Hilldale. (and I bet the per capita of all of them is higher.)

  281. Listing of poorest counties in the USA. Note that the POOREST has a higher per capita income than Hilldale.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowest-income_counties_in_the_United_States

  282. Brooke scooped by the AP

    Clearly Brooke Adams is not Wisan’s favorite reporter. After that op-ed piece about him in the Salt Lake Trib, I doubt he cares much for anyone from that organization.

  283. KSL has a great article, addressing Warren “Answering them nothing, shortcreek is rejected by God, and that Warrren is still the proffft.

    Found here thanks to lady sadie, hat tip!

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=7005115

  284. This was the “money quote” for me in the article Stamp linked:

    “Moreover, both proposals also call for the court to approve a settlement that not only provides for the unconditional support of and reliance upon the FLDS Church but forces religious segregation in the community,” assistant Arizona Attorney General William Richards wrote.

    I am amazed that Shurtleff could with a straight face propose a ghetto for the non-FLDS.

  285. Ron

    I suspect that this site will soon have those responses on board, but if you go to that article, and read the UT AG response, there are additoinal “money Quotes” ha ha

    Mark and the FLDS are PWNED. The pdfs (Wisans not loading though)

    Such as:

    “IV. The Proposals May Violate Constitutional Law.

    A. The Proposals Divide the Property On Purely Religious Lines and Establish
    a Religious Test for Benefits.

    The transfer of Trust assets to the FLDS Church would constitute inappropriate aid to one
    beneficiary group to the detriment of another beneficiary group based on religious affiliation.”

    AND

    “C. Ceding Most Trust Property to the FLDS Church Raises Substantial
    Questions About Whether the Trust’s Purposes Will Be Fulfilled.

    The Utah and FLDS proposals ignore that it was the FLDS leader, Warren Jeffs, that the
    Court found had engaged in serious violations of fiduciary duty that led to the Court’s
    intervention in the first place, and that the Trust’s former trustees have never obeyed the Court’s
    command for an accounting and cooperation with the Special Fiduciary.”

    AND

    “A. The FLDS Church is Not a Trust Participant.

    The Utah proposal offers the vast majority of the Trust Property to an entity that is not
    even a recognized Trust Participant.

  286. You know how well it worked out when the British gave the Irish Catholic ghettos. How many centuries of civil war? So far.

  287. “[Id.]. Also, the Court correctly concluded that while charitable trust purposes can include the
    advancement of religion, “‘a trust to promote actual participation in activities or practices that
    are unlawful, such as polygamy, is noncharitable even though the belief is one of the tenets of a
    religion.’” [Id. at 13].”

  288. I’ve been saying the same thing since my arrival in the Mohave & Washington County areas, four years ago. The constitution is virtually meaningless up there. A theocracy is firmly in place, strongly supported by the local and state governments.

    I am honestly surprised that the Arizona side is actually showing some spine, in favor of the constitutional rights of the apostates.

    If it had not been for the pressure of citizens in Arizona, and the eyes of Texas being upon them, I don’t doubt for one minute that Arizona would have just gone along with Shurtleffs plans.

    After all, you have an elected state AG in Utah that is supporting the practice of a 3rd degree felony by tens of thousands of people, not only without fear of prosecution but with the unrestrained support of taxpayer dollars to fund it.

    http://tripleap.blogspot.com/

    Look at the invitation. Look at the titles under each of the speakers. Does it look to anyone here like the U.S. law is being honored or upheald in Utah by that state’s AG?

    Or does it look like they have their own special version of the law, as they see it?

  289. OUCH Goddard BSlapped Shurtleff

    “The settlement proposals of the Utah Attorney General and the FLDS violate many, if not
    all, of these principles.

    For example, they require the distribution of the vast majority of trust
    property to direct ownership by the FLDS Church, thereby creating a religious test for trust
    benefits.”

  290. Mark is getting his can kicked up and down the internet!

    “The Arizona Attorney General’s Office agrees with the Utah Attorney General that the
    decisions of the Court removing the former trustees and reforming the Trust “are final and nonappealable.”

    [Utah Attorney General’s Proposed Settlement and Plan of Distribution and
    Request for Instructions to the Special Fiduciary, at 2].

    Yet, the pending proposals ask the Court
    to abandon the principles and standards established by its final, non-appealable orders.

    Such
    disregard for the final orders of the Court is unjustified by the facts and circumstances, and is
    legally inappropriate.”

  291. Boots

    I agree it is surprising to see Goddard showing this spine 1, and 2, that he beats up on Mark while he is doing it!

    Its unprecedented, but everything that he says is on point.

    The FLDS response says “Willie Jessop, movant, representing himself and members in good standing of the FLDS Church”

    Does that mean Warren is in good standing? HA HA of COURSE IT DOES!

  292. I’ve been saying the same thing since my arrival in the Mohave & Washington County areas, four years ago. The constitution is virtually meaningless up there. A theocracy is firmly in place, strongly supported by the local and state governments.

    I am honestly surprised that the Arizona side is actually showing some spine, in favor of the constitutional rights of the apostates.

    I really agree about there being a theocracy up there. Why the higher levels of government are not doing more to dismantle that abomination boggles my mind.

    Apparently Mohave County is pretty serious about dealing with the issue.

    BTW – having vacationed in the Needles/Bullhead/Laughlin area, I’m simply amazed at how large Mohave County is.

  293. Betty, the UEP was intended as a religious trust only for faithful, it is not public land.

    Also Betty, it looks like the town of Kiryas Joel New York which is exclusively ultra orthodox Jews who wear weird clothes is the poorest community in the US. Here are some quotes from a NY times article

    ““There are three religious tenets that drive our growth: our women don’t use birth control, they get married young and after they get married, they stay in Kiryas Joel and start a family,” Mr. Szegedin said.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/27/nyregion/27orange.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&th&emc=th

    From wiki (aren’t statistics fun?):

    “The median income for a household in the village was $15,138, and the median income for a family was $15,372. Males had a median income of $25,043 versus $16,364 for females. The per capita income for the village was $4,355. About 61.7% of families and 62.2% of the population were below the poverty line, including 63.9% of those under age 18 and 50.5% of those age 65 or over.

    “According 2008 census figures, the village has the highest poverty rate in the nation, and the largest percentage of residents who receive food stamps. More than two-thirds of Kiryas Joel residents live below the federal poverty line and more than 40 percent receive food stamps, according to the American Community Survey, a U.S. Census Bureau study of every place in the country with 20,000 residents or more.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiryas_Joel

    Should these welfare sponging Jews who use their women as baby factories and dress funny be our next target once we succeed in ridding ourselves of Mormon fundies??

    Kdee, how do you feel about these Jews who suck welfare and breed like rats??

  294. Betty, the UEP was intended as a religious trust only for faithful, it is not public land.

    Also Betty, it looks like the town of Kiryas Joel New York which is exclusively ultra orthodox Jews who wear weird clothes is the poorest community in the US. Here are some quotes from a NY times article

    ““There are three religious tenets that drive our growth: our women don’t use birth control, they get married young and after they get married, they stay in Kiryas Joel and start a family,” Mr. Szegedin said.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/27/nyregion/27orange.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&th&emc=th

    From wiki (aren’t statistics fun?):

    “The median income for a household in the village was $15,138, and the median income for a family was $15,372. Males had a median income of $25,043 versus $16,364 for females. The per capita income for the village was $4,355. About 61.7% of families and 62.2% of the population were below the poverty line, including 63.9% of those under age 18 and 50.5% of those age 65 or over.

    “According 2008 census figures, the village has the highest poverty rate in the nation, and the largest percentage of residents who receive food stamps. More than two-thirds of Kiryas Joel residents live below the federal poverty line and more than 40 percent receive food stamps, according to the American Community Survey, a U.S. Census Bureau study of every place in the country with 20,000 residents or more.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiryas_Joel

    Should these welfare sponging Jews who use their women as baby factories and dress funny be our next target once we succeed in ridding ourselves of Mormon fundies??

  295. Ive said from the begining, it’s discrimination!!!! Discriminating against people by kicking them out of a town because they question FLDS doctrine. Discrmination against girls, and boys.

  296. Betty, the UEP was intended as a religious trust only for faithful, it is not public land.

    Also Betty, it looks like the town of Kiryas Joel New York which is exclusively ultra orthodox Jews who wear weird clothes is the poorest community in the US. Here are some quotes from a NY times article

    ““There are three religious tenets that drive our growth: our women don’t use birth control, they get married young and after they get married, they stay in Kiryas Joel and start a family,” Mr. Szegedin said.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/27/nyregion/27orange.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&th&emc=th

    From wiki (aren’t statistics fun?):

    “The median income for a household in the village was $15,138, and the median income for a family was $15,372. Males had a median income of $25,043 versus $16,364 for females. The per capita income for the village was $4,355. About 61.7% of families and 62.2% of the population were below the poverty line, including 63.9% of those under age 18 and 50.5% of those age 65 or over.

    “According 2008 census figures, the village has the highest poverty rate in the nation, and the largest percentage of residents who receive food stamps. More than two-thirds of Kiryas Joel residents live below the federal poverty line and more than 40 percent receive food stamps, according to the American Community Survey, a U.S. Census Bureau study of every place in the country with 20,000 residents or more.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiryas_Joel

    Should these welfare sponging Jews who use their women as baby factories and dress funny be our next target once we succeed in ridding ourselves of Mormon fundies??

  297. Ron,

    “Apparently Mohave County is pretty serious about dealing with the issue.”

    No, Mohave County is serious about not being caught with their pants down. Take your eyes off them for two solid seconds and they will be going gangbusters at their old tricks. They are as corrupt as they come, everyone from the sheriff’s department to the Mohave County Attorney. Period. End of story. This is a show, especially performed for y’all.

    When a Mohave County defendant was facing over 200 years of prison time for the molestation of 5 of his daughters, the Mohave County Attorney, Matt Smith, walked in and handed him a plea agreement for 13 days in jail for the offense.

    The guy’s defense attorney later came up to Flora, CRYING, saying, “I was his attorney and I was obligated to advise him to take it. There was nothing I could do. I’M SO SORRY”!

    Matt Smith’s excuse? Something like, ‘There was no guarantee he would have gotten any time if we hadn’t offered it to him. And the judge had received letters from hundreds of members of the FLDS community asking for leniancy, including the molestation victims’.

    Buster Johnson’s question, “Were they written in G-d@*m crayon?”

    Some prosecutor, huh?

  298. Wow – Boots interesting story. Prosecutors are rather quirky folks. Is it better to get a conviction with some jail time rather than rolling the dice and maybe not getting a conviction at all? I have no idea.

    Also, while it’s easy to point a finger at Smith, you also need look at the judiciary. I am amazed at the light sentences handed down there. I highly doubt that such offers would even be “on the table” here in Texas.

  299. Ron,

    Yes the judiciary is the real root of the corruption there, for sure. I spoke to guy who had served on a jury for Fischer, who didn’t even bother to deny he had taken his 14 year old “step daughter” [by reassignment of the mother and her children, when the girl was 12]. He simply claimed to have slept with her on the Utah side, thus Arizona had no authority to charge or convict him. The jury members didn’t by it since his house was in Colorado City, that he was taking her across the street to bed her there.

    Even though the jury found him guilty, again the letters came in, again the victim wrote a letter saying she was no victim…and the judge gave him a whopping 45 days for his crime.

    Or how about the over 300 lost boys who have been convicted of molestation? Every last one of them got probabtion, even one who sodomized a 5 year old boy, no jail time. After all, if you give that many boys serious time, someone might have to admit there is a problem, right?

    Molestation is a cycle. Get molested as a kid, becaome a molester as an adult. Once the boys start being dumped here in Texas, folks, you can look forward to having molesters on your streets, too.

    Another thing about the cycle of molestation to think about here…

    If I am a child molester living in your neighborhood I will generally start with the children in my own home. Once they have grown and gone, I will now have to start taking the risk of finding victims from your homes, your churches, youth groups, your Scout troops…

    If I am a polygamist, looked up to as a g-d in my own home, however, I can simply produce my own endless supply of victims, right in my own home…

    Think
    Think
    Think

  300. Since when do give any credence to a under-aged rape victim’s statement that she isn’t a victim?

    Didn’t Elizabeth Smart feel that way also? A victim of rape and kidnapping and indoctrinated in a short amount of time SO WELL that she refused to give her real identity until she was coached and convinced it was ok to give it.

  301. I can’t believe anyone in the judicial system would even believe that or give it any weight?

    But they did, didn’t they? Just like with Ruby.

  302. Yep, Elizabeth got help because she wasn’t raised in it. Ruby, Flora’s sister, was and therefore got no help.

    Same song 16th verse:

    Corruption to polygamy
    Corruption
    Corruption
    Corruption…

    The only question now is, will we allow it to happen in our own states, too?

  303. Seems to me that not letting it happen in our states is going to be much easier when Arizona and Utah don’t allow it THEIR STATES.

    Since when is the justice system so selective about crimes that are prosecuted?

    Apparently though, if I move to Arizona and Utah, I can do what I want, when I want, with whoever I want.

    Were I a criminal or child molester those two states would be my choice on where to live!

  304. Arizona seems to be a mixed bag. They do have that wacky Joe Arpaio.

  305. Bringing it around, Goddard and Wisan both vetted Shurtleffs plan as illegal and enabling the same old problems, with probable worse results!

    I am in the middle of Wisans report – its good but it doesnt spank Mark nearly as bad as Goddard does.

    Its obvious in the flds and Marks proposals, they were just trying to pull another fast one, illegal and unethical as all get out.

  306. Melisa Ann Jessup, 21, 563 N. 300 East, Washington City, was arrested Monday on a charge of outstanding warrant. Jessup was booked into Purgatory Correctional Facility on $1,544 bail.

  307. I liked the part of Goddards response where her repeated what the judge said about this group in 1953.

  308. I think that was Wisan, and the point was the “TOP BRASS” got the best houses and best cars (and best wives, wink wink!)

  309. Well whichever one it was, it was Great!!

  310. I think you meant best concubines, wink wink!

    Wives would be eligable for inheritance, insurance and SS benefits upon death of their husband.

    A concubine is only eligable for “reassignment” to their next owner/master.

  311. and best wives, wink wink

    I don’t know Stamp. Look at Barbara Jessop. Are you saying she’s a prize?

  312. Merril evidently thinks so Ron, she is his fav!

  313. Ron & DD,

    Barbara is what is known as an “enforcer”.

    With 125 people identified on the YFZ as “abusers”, and way fewer than 60 men, how many of the women do you think were identified as confirmed “abusers”?

    Yet we didn’t indict them, because the feds told us they would “take care of it”.

    Anybody seen the feds lately? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?

  314. Several women should of been indicted, too.
    In my humble opinion.

  315. Ron

    Maybe she was cute when she was 15? LOL

    Say, have you seen that pic of Merril with his 6 wives? It dispels the notion polygamy might be cool.

  316. Boots said…
    Even though the jury found him guilty, again the letters came in, again the victim wrote a letter saying she was no victim…and the judge gave him a whopping 45 days for his crime.

    Boots look who the judge was…..Conn?

  317. SusieQ,

    BINGO! The very same judge who said he might have to rule on whether evidence seized by TEXAS was a violation of the YFZ’z constitutional rights.

    The very same judge : Conn had the option of sentencing Fischer from four months to two years in prison or placing him on probation. The judge said he struggled with the sentence, realizing Fischer was not a typical sexual predator and that his plural wife does not consider herself a victim. The judge noted that the relationship, approved by her parents, would have been legal if Fischer had not already been married and they had legally wed.

    More things to make you go Hmmmmm….

  318. Oh and on the whole “approved by her parents” thang, really? Did the father, who was thrown out and had his concubine and children reassigned to Fischer REALLY give his approval?

    Do we have that in writing somewhere?

  319. Or maybe we are counting Fischer himself as the orther “parent” who gave himself the approval?

  320. The exhibits are most interesting! The first from the judge in 1953!
    The second the letter and graphs from Arizona to Utah AG office.

    The baby cemetary which has 182 babies buried in it, will go exclusively to FLDS. So I guess if you have a baby buried there and were kicked out, you can’t visit your baby’s grave?

    Even the water rights, utility right go 100% to flds. So, that means, if xflds get a LOT where flds intend to put them ,won’t do them any good, because flds OWN all the utility rights…

    You can’t build a house on a lot where the FLDS refuse to allow you water or utilities…

  321. Judge Conn is pesiding over Warren Jeffs case in Mohave County, right now.

    He is the judge with the balls to engage in this lovely “what if scenario”. He is the judge who wants to decide if Texas violated these poor polygamists people’s civil rights.

    I hope everyone can understand when I seem a bit “hardcore”, how difficult it was for me to be living up there, as a Texan, with my mouth hanging open wondering what in the you-know-what was going on…and if I was still, in fact, even in AMERICA.

  322. go here to read exhibits

    http://166.70.44.68/blogs/plurallife/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Exhibits_to_Fiduciarys_Response.pdf

  323. DD,

    I’ve got an even better one for you. Remember how the Colorado City School District had to go into receivership because it was determined that 10 million dollars was stolen from the district, and yet no one was EVER charged for the crime?

    The same guy that ran the school district is now…wait for it… running their utility company!

    Oh….it just NEVER ends!!!!

  324. I know I do Boots, and I am sure everyone else here does too.

    I find this a very emotional consuming subject. I find myself thinking about it all the time. I read every book I can get my hands on (almost exhausted Amazon’s supply on polygamy) and yet I feel depressed and frustrated that all of this has been going on and our government and law enforcement have looked the other way for so long.

    So I continually waffle back and forth between anger, frustration, & disbelief.

  325. Im right there withyou mississippi!!! Feel the same way! Even have dreams about it.

  326. Oh and Cajim,

    On the whole denial that virtually 100% of the women and children on the YFZ, at the time of the Texas intervention/rescue…maybe Brooke should have tried talking to the horses mouth who told us that, not 3 days before Flora left to come down here.

    Jane Irvine, Arizona Assistant Attorney General. Maybe Brooke should talk to HER, since she is the one who said it right to Flora’s face and all.

  327. I meant to finish that thought but the ADD seems particularly in motion today…virtually 100% of the women and children on the YFZ, AT THE TIME OF THE RESCUE, were still collecting benefits from Arizona.

    No prosecutions are planned.

  328. Thanks for understanding guys. Being up there and having to watch it all unfold was mentally and emotionally traumatic, to say the least. I didn’t come back home to sit on my bum and not do anything about it. I’m here to STOP it.

    I want those CareBear colored mothers indicted. I don’t want to sit around waiting for the Feds [who ain’t commin’, folks] to do it. WE have to do it…and that means public pressure on our elected representatives, and on our AG.

  329. BTW, dagnabit, Boots I am still waiting for that video from the San Antonio Library to be put up on tripleap!

  330. LOL! Okay, I will make a call today to the guy who filmed it. You’re going to have to be patient for a bit longer, though, because I need to have a friend of mine who owns a TV station take it and obscure the faces of the CPS employees who stood up to speak out.

    Otherwise I’m putting them, and their jobs at risk, and I just can’t be responsible for that, k?

  331. I guess I can wait a little while longer, geezzzzzz! LOL!

  332. Sterling Harker’s response to Utah AG

    http://166.70.44.68/blogs/plurallife/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/SterlingHarker.pdf

  333. So is the best thing to get something going, is just to call them up? or would letters be better?

    I don’t have to live in Texas to apply pressure to Texas elected officials, do I?

  334. No mississippi you don’t have to live in Texas,, this is a national problem or begining to be one.

  335. Well geez, then let me start calling to work off some of this frustration. It seems to be all I can think about and talk about these days. Maybe it will help me feel like I’m helping more.

    And I apologize to Boots for not coming to the picnic. I wanted to so badly but just didn’t because of the distance, which feels like a sorry excuse now and I apologize for that immensely.

  336. The evidence is still there and the statute of limitations is nowhere close to being over. I would say anyone who wants to write or call the Texas Governor, AG’s office, or Texas Representatives Hildebran, Rose or Darby, to demand the women be brought before a Texas Grand Jury, is free to do so.

    Tell yer friends now, ya hear;)

    Oh, and DD, wow! That was a GREAT list of questions for Shurtleff that Harker came up with. Thanks for sharing it!

  337. Mississippigirl,

    Please don’t apologize. There were many people here in Texas who wanted to be there but could not make it.

    I would rather have 10 of someone like yourself, who is on fire and ready to take action but miss an event, than 50 who showed up to sit there, leave and never DO anything.

    You are helping, in a BIG way, and don’t you ever forget it either, k?

    And honestly, honey, if Texas is successful in putting enough pressure on these guys, who is to say they won’t head for Mississippi, or Lousianna, or Alabama or Georgia, or Tennessee or Arkansas NEXT?

    Talking to your own legistlators NOW would be an excellent idea. Pass the laws now, and they probably won’t ever bother moving to your state, get it? They will have to go back to CONCUBINE States.

  338. Boots says to talk to your own legislators now…Already done, although my state already has the age 18 consent law, and is actually active in enforcing it, heard a few years ago weewillie was down my ways looking around they didn’t move here thank god! Guess weewillie realized that they wouldn’t get away with raping little girls here!

  339. Ok, I am going to talk to mine too, immediately!

    We already have a problem with teen-age pregnancies down here, no way they are going to come down here and make it worse.

  340. ive emailed, written and called and left messages to every legislator, governor , attorney general and anyone else I could for the last 6 months!!! Some are nice enough to acknowledge I wrote,,Perry is damn busy running for re-election and keeping his hair perfect to give a shit!

  341. Ali, how many adult women not born into this cult, not indoctrined from birth by this cult, not told they can not get to the highest level of heaven unless they submit to the wishes of the profit, that their family can not get to the highest level of heaven unless the woman submits to the wishes of the profit have made the choice to be FLDS?
    ========================================================
    Since they don’t actively recruit I would imagine pretty close to zero unless their is a few that I don’t know about. Perhaps a friend of a member or relation of a member. They don’t discuss their internal dealings so no way to know for sure.

  342. Ahhh, so now Ali is finally admitting that the 17 year old Canadian girl WAS sent to YFZ to get married to some old goat.
    ============================================================
    Ta hell! I specifically said she was there to visit her grandmother. Funny thing about Texas since we are on that topic. She could legally have sex with 10 guys in a row as long as she is not forced or no money changes hands. However, the moment she pretends to be married to one of them she is guilty of a crime.

  343. Yep, Ali, the moment she pretends to be married to a man who is already legally in a union, she is a felon. You’re right. Good point.

    Also, on your admission that there are ZERO women who partake of this illegal lifestyle without having been bred and raised specifically for the purpose of breaking the law…well, I think that just makes the point right there.

    These people are breeding children for the specific purpose of raising them to grow up break the laws of the U.S., too!

    I’d say that’s a crime family, who should be put in jail and have their children removed from them, permanently.

    At least if the women go to prison for a few years they’ll get a break from childbirth every single year of their reproductive life. Maybe while they’re in there, they can think real hard about what they want to do when they get out again…like maybe not participating in the breeding and raising of more criminals?

  344. Texas law says any child 16 or under can’t legally consent to any form of sex Alinsura. So I don’t have a clue where you got that?

  345. Did Teresa Steed, Teresa Jeffs, Merrianne Jessop go before a judge and get a special court order to marry underage??? NO! they didn’t!

  346. Let’s ask Duh duane about how come Sterling Harker got drummed off his family Farm and Dairy after a lifetime of hardwork and dedication? duane you always account that the Prophet has really good reasons for booting folks out, this isn’t a ‘Lost Boy’ but a full grown man with over 50+Years of FLDS membership. I’ll give you a hint, it had something to do with the Harker Farm was willed to the FLDS Church, who only holds land titles in the UEPTrust but this Harker Farm was never transferred into the UEPTrust until Bruce Wisan bought it at a Sheriff’s auction, when it was about to be SOLD for 1/2 of it’s true market value. Didn’t Warren turn on Sterling Harker because he was asking to many questions, absolutely guaranteed to get you made into an apostate, lose your home and have your family reassigned. Well, duane ask Pliggy, let’s hear the reasoning or are you just going to ignore this one because it doesn’t fit into your set of half-truths?

  347. Cajim,, duane will have to ask pliggy or medvecky since he does NO research for himself,but just keeps replaying what “he’s” been told by liars and thieves!

  348. Heck street doesnt even know why he got kiss-canned.

    They just told him “Quit coming to meetings”..

    DUH, OK! YUP!

  349. Also, on your admission that there are ZERO women who partake of this illegal lifestyle without having been bred and raised specifically for the purpose of breaking the law…well, I think that just makes the point right there.
    ====================================================
    Well my friend just make it legal and we no longer have this problem. Easy enough solution.
    ====================================================
    Texas law says any child 16 or under can’t legally consent to any form of sex Alinsura. So I don’t have a clue where you got that?
    ====================================================
    I was talking about a 17 year old my friend not a 16 year old. Since we are on the topic of 16 and below according to Texas law no crime occurred if it’s consensual and the partner is no more then 3 years older then the younger. Or if they are legally married.

  350. Sterling Harker got drummed off his family Farm and Dairy after a lifetime of hardwork and dedication?
    ========================================================
    He may have a valid lawsuit if he can prove that he made improvements to the property which he is entitled to reimbursement.

  351. Alin,
    How many of the FLDS younger teen brides were “married” to a man within 3 years of age to them? Off the top of my head I can think of — none. So that excuse is merely sophistry on your part. I’m sure you’re well aware that the FLDS ignores those laws in addition to all the other supposedly unGodly laws of our nation. That is really why they have to be shut down too — anarchy is the only forseeable outcome of allowing religious people to simply flout the law because “God” said to. There are plenty of judicial and legislative routs that the FLDS could follow to keep their marriages legal. They deliberately chose to flout the law, as Warren’s dictations indicate quite clearly. There is no way to paint it as anything less than a deliberate attempt to incite just the legal response they got. And as long as Warren Jeffs is the Prophet and leader of good FLDS members there is no reason whatsoever to believe they will obey the law, try to work within the law, or even tell the unvarnished truth. They’ve clearly proven they won’t do any of the above.

  352. “He may have a valid lawsuit if he can prove that he made improvements to the property which he is entitled to reimbursement.”

    I see this “then let them sue” response a lot. The hard cold truth is that it costs money to sue someone else. Maybe, if the state government is already concerned with the situation, you *might* get some help from them. Otherwise, you’re pretty much screwed. I think that most of the people suggesting lawsuits are well aware of this fact, too. You simply want to see all those abused by the FLDS fade away under the weight of costly litigation. I don’t see that happening anymore, though. It’s too well known what this supposedly holy people have been up to — and it’s digusting and disgraceful.

  353. Alinsura, Im betting a dollar to a donut, Polygamy will NEVER be legal! If for no other reason because the government doesn’t want to support them, and neither do taxpayers.
    And in 1953 they were arrested for underage marriage, and back then im not sure what the consent age was.
    Let’s see Merrianne Jessop was sealed for time and eternity to Warren Jeffs at 12yrs old,and he was 50…. LOL

  354. By the way, I’ve answered you all extensively on the Federal Charges thread. You’re welcome.

  355. Stamp said this on July 1, 2009 at 6:27 PM
    Heck street doesnt even know why he got kiss-canned. They just told him “Quit coming to meetings”..DUH, OK! YUP!

    REPLY: They didn’t tell me specifically any reason. They didn’t need to. As the Lord says, “Obedience is the first law of heaven”, and I knew and know by the spirit that’s in me that there is plenty in me to justify it. To ask why and become contensious is just the possession of a demon, the spirit of contension, not peace. The Spirit of God is the spirit of peace.

    Street

  356. Alin,
    How many of the FLDS younger teen brides were “married” to a man within 3 years of age to them? Off the top of my head I can think of — none.
    =======================================================
    You are correct though some are fairly close like 4 to 5 year age difference. I’ve always said that if both investigations and convictions can be obtained without traumatizing children or violating constitutional rights then more power to them.
    =======================================================
    That is really why they have to be shut down too
    ================================================
    I disagree here. Our constitution is pretty specific about making laws either promoting or limiting religion. I agree though that they must obey local statutory limits regarding marriage and sex.
    =====================================================
    And as long as Warren Jeffs is the Prophet and leader of good FLDS members there is no reason whatsoever to believe they will obey the law, try to work within the law, or even tell the unvarnished truth.
    ====================================================
    As far as I know they have obeyed the marriage laws since 2006 when WJ did his last marriage ceremonies before incarceration.

  357. deputydog1 said this on July 1, 2009 at 6:54 PM
    Alinsura, Im betting a dollar to a donut, Polygamy will NEVER be legal! If for no other reason because the government doesn’t want to support them, and neither do taxpayers.
    And in 1953 they were arrested for underage marriage, and back then im not sure what the consent age was.
    Let’s see Merrianne Jessop was sealed for time and eternity to Warren Jeffs at 12yrs old,and he was 50…. LOL

    REPLY: Plural Marriage is already legal. In fact, it is the ONLY marriage system on the planet. You are ALL polygamists. We all have ONE Father, agreed? And millions of mothers are bearing His children. That’s worldwide polygamy, fokes, universal.

    You can always hide, but you can’t run. “The race in not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but he who endureth (faithful) to the end”.

  358. Alinsura, Im betting a dollar to a donut, Polygamy will NEVER be legal! If for no other reason because the government doesn’t want to support them, and neither do taxpayers.
    ====================================================
    If you are trying to save a buck you are going about it the wrong way. It would cost a good deal more to send mom and dad to jail for a certain number of years plus the amount of care the children would need in foster care.

  359. But Ali it is like pulling the bandaid off the scab, it may hurt for a few minutes but in the long run it is better for the wound. It may cost to jail the first generation of mom and dads and to remove the children from the criminal families but in the long run much cheaper then continuing to fund their criminal “lifestyles”.

  360. That’s right LadieSadie, AMEN, sister, AMEN. I just essentially said the same thing over in the GWHF post.

  361. “Polygamy will NEVER be legal!”

    The fundies just need come up with another name other then “wives” that sounds respectable.

  362. Sorry CaJim, I think “duane” got booted.

  363. Deci,

    There is no respectful name for mental slavery. They are concubines, and they deserve no respect for their agreement to remain so. None what-so-ever.

    Just prison time and the loss of their children. That’s all they’ll ever deserve.

  364. Boots, I’ve dealt with a few women in abusive situations and I have a bit more sympathy than what you’re expressing. I agree, mother’s who agree to the abandonment of their teen sons and/or the marriage of their teen daughters SHOULD receive the appropriate legal consequences (including losing the custody of any young children they might have) but I also understand how very, very hard it is to break free from the mindset that you are already getting what you deserve. The website in memory of the one Mackert woman has some really good ideas, I think, in offering assistance with education, housing, job hunting, etc. From personal experience I can say the harder we try to push them into making the “right” decisions the harder they will pull away. And really, in doing so we perpetuate the same abuse on them that they can’t make their own decisions.

  365. I’m not interested in pushing anyone into making the right choice, hon. I simply want the law enforced, and children protected.

    Any abuse is a cycle. The women that stay in the cycle are completely responsible for their choices, just like I am, as well as you, or any other adult.

    One can only stay a “victim” for so long. Each of these women knows full well that polygamy is a felony. Each of these women is responsible for the protection of her children.

    My birth father was a racist, and tried very hard to make sure I would be one, too. I made a conscious choice not to be or become one…so no one can tell me victims don’t have a choice somewhere in the cycle.

    They have obviously made the choice to obey their men folk and the dictates of their twisted “prophet” rather than abide by the laws of the land like the rest of us do.

    Once you’ve handed over your child to an adult for their sexual gratification, failed to protect your child from abuse or molestation, or watched this done to any other child in your community and failed to report it, Texas law says you are a criminal.

    Criminals belong in prison. Criminals have no business having children, nor having custody of them.

    The AAAP is not here to cater to criminal behavior, or to feel sorry for the ones without enough backbone to get out. We are here to stop the crime of polygamy.

    If a woman contacts us for help to get out, in conjunction with other organizations who do have this focus, we will give her 100% support in doing so. That is not, however, the focus of our organization. The focus is to get the laws against the practice strengthened, and to see them enforced, vigorously.

    They’ve already made their decisions and that’s fine, but they better be willing to face the consequences for them as long as they are in Texas.

    I won’t waste my time having sympathy for women who have moved from the role of victim to abuser, any more than I will waste my time on making excuses for a molester who was victimized as a child. That’s not going to break the cycle, and that’s ALL I care about.

    I want polygamy prosecuted. I don’t care about the gender, religion or background of the criminal; they ALL belong in jail. If I have anything to say about it here in Texas, that’s exactly where they will all go.

    Abuse is not a religion, nor a right, and polygamy is abuse.

  366. Boots, I’m not trying to criticize you, I’m just pointing out a fairly universal truth. Most people, if pushed (i.e. through a legal “crackdown”) are going to use that as justification for their choices. Kind of like the teenager who pushes Mommy and Daddy’s buttions so that they’ll get mad and then they can feel justified in their adolesent rebellion. I firmly feel that enforcing the education laws of the United States will do more good, along with having a good safety net for those who do wish to leave, than anything else. (Which is not to say I’m against prosecution of offenders and abusers. As I said, parents who abuse, or offer up for abuse, their children desrve to be prosecuted.)

  367. So, I hope I didn’t offend you. I’m really not attacking you or your beliefs. Just offering my own limited understanding of the mindset that many of these women are undoubtedly operating from.

  368. Sorry, Rebeckah, I couldn’t disagree more with you. Polygamy is a crime and it should be prosecuted and children permanently removed from the toxic criminal environment.

    There are plenty of programs and organizations who will come rescue any women who wants out. The site you mentioned talks a good talk, and I wish them luck in getting people to donate to a cause that few of the women will ever take advantage of, especially without any legal crackdown on the practice.

    Programs like the “Saftey Net” are nothing more than thinly veiled attempts to normalize the criminal practice, and they will never find any support from me, or our organization.

    Ploygamy is abuse, whether there is ever any physical, mental or sexual exploitation taking place.

    Just as slavery was abuse, whether any of those things were happening or not. There are some polygamous relationships where overt abuse is absent, just as there were some slave owner relationships where no overt abuse occurred. The practice itself is still inherantly abusive, and unconstitutional.

    Try as you may to convince me that we should take this on a family by family basis, you’ll never convince me that it should ever remain unprosecuted, under any circumstance.

    This country did not deal with slavery on an owner by owner, or case by case basis. That was not the answer then, nor is it now.

    I expect all slave owners in my country to be prosecuted, and I expect all polygamist to be prosecuted as well.

    That being said, Utah having lied and tricked its way into our Union, I do not expect it to ever be a free state for women.

    I do, however, expect a lot more from Texas and the rest of the South, since we have not yet been corrupted to the practice.

    Utah and Arizona can go be Concubine states for women, and all the polygamists can get their tails right back up there.

    Here, in Texas, we will remain a free people, and will require those who wish to be Texans to live free as well.

  369. “Try as you may to convince me that we should take this on a family by family basis, you’ll never convince me that it should ever remain unprosecuted, under any circumstance.”

    Boots, I am not, and will not ever, try to convince you that crimes should not be prosecuted. I am of the type of mindset that pretty much relies on law and on them being consistent and equally applied. I think I must not be expressing myself well if that is what you think I’m saying. What I’m trying to say probably closer to your point that the “Safety Net” would be more effective if polygamy was actually being prosecuted. I think this is a bigger problem than a simple “lock ’em up in jail and throw away the key” answer. Prosecution of crimes is an excellent start but I seriously hope we have more in place than that so that lives can be salvaged too.

  370. “Stamp said this on July 1, 2009 at 6:27 PM
    Heck street doesnt even know why he got kiss-canned. They just told him “Quit coming to meetings”..DUH, OK! YUP!

    REPLY: They didn’t tell me specifically any reason. They didn’t need to. As the Lord says, “Obedience is the first law of heaven”, and I knew and know by the spirit that’s in me that there is plenty in me to justify it. To ask why and become contensious is just the possession of a demon, the spirit of contension, not peace. The Spirit of God is the spirit of peace.

    Street

    Curious said this on July 1, 2009 at 7:04 PM ”

    ============

    No street, molesting girls, booting men and boys and destroying families, shipwrecking the UEP trust and the finances of 10000 people – THAT is the work of the demon Warren Jeffs.

    HE has become a curse on you, you need to question “Why does God give this gift of a man unto us?”

    The flds is beset by numerous demons, asking WHY and understanding WHY is your first step in casting them out.

    IF you KNOW why you were cast out (I have my ideas – and they are related to your mouth, and how you speak about and to people – oh and your weekly rant you want a wife) then you ought to admit to it.

    If you know why you were booted, they know why, and your answer wasn’t truthful.

    But who is surprised at that?

  371. Heah, decimated, you’ll do in a pinch, why don’t you ask your therapist if it would be alright for you to talk to Duh duane and ask if he cares to comment on what a bad person Sterling Harker is to have been Apostated by Warren S. Jeffs’ for raising a fuss over why the Harker Farm never made it’s real estate title into the UEPTrust? Why was the FLDS Church still holding separate ownership on this property and never placed it into the UEPTrust? After 50+ years of faithful membership in the FLDS Church, Sterling was excommunicated, removed from his home on the farm and his family was reassigned. Deci give us the explanation on why destroying someones livelihood, family and residence is O.K. and morally justifiable?

  372. “The fundies just need come up with another name other then “wives” that sounds respectable.”

    There’s a respectable name for breeding slave?

    I liked the statement from the 1953 judge who called it bondage and refered to how slave owners used the bible to justify slavery. Man after my own heart.

  373. Betty, ask the women if they consider themselves slaves.
    During the antebellum period, slaves would answer that they were indeed slaves when asked.

  374. duane, every child born in that group who is born into a household with more than one wife is illegitimate! Is that what society wants their children labeled??? ONLY ONE marriage, is considered legal! This is no longer the antebellum period duane, this 2009 and many have been jailed, or killed for civil rights and the rights NOT be slaves!

    Slaves stayed with some of the people who owned them because they had NO where else to go. They have no shelter, no food, no jobs, so they stayed. But they were still slaves! And it was illegal for humans to own other humans.

  375. deci duaneh1: Why don’t you ask them yourself? You are the one who knew the apostates were walking the short creek town streets in “skimpy” attire to throw rocks at faithful flds members. ROFL. You made that all up by yourself. Not a word of truth to it. Why should anyone believe anything you post. I sure as heck don’t.

  376. Rebeckah,

    It is my turn to apologize if I’ve offended you, or come off as having any sort of lack of compassion.

    I certainly wouldn’t be what I’m doing if I lacked compassion for what has happened to these people.

    Utah and Arizona have been utter failures at dealing with the crime of polygamy, because they never prosecute it. They give the song and dance about how they will prosecute crimes within polygamy, instead of prosecuting polygamy. So how has this approach worked out for them? When you fail to enforce a law, you are basically endorsing and approving the action as legal. Thus we have tens of thousands of people who feel comfortable breaking the law.

    When you do that, you’ll get more of the crime. The PR disaster resulting from Arizona’s 1953 raid sent them into a hole, and they have never come back out.

    Goddard is a politician, and as such, he will do whatever is convenient for him after sticking his finger in the wind. The only politicians in it for the long haul, in Arizona that have stuck to their guns and truly tried to make a difference are Representative David Lujan and Mohave County Supervisor Buster Johnson.

    I would have loved to have centered the AAAP on helping victims but there is absolutely no need for something like that here in Texas. It’s over. Do you think for one moment that those kids believe anyone in Texas will protect them now? Do you think any of the women who might have wanted out will trust Texas now? Nope. You’ll be lucky to see one or two from the entire Texas group come out within the next 10 years, and chances are they will be boys who are kicked out. We blew it.

    One C.A.S.A. worker told us that one young woman was hanging back from the crowd and they managed to get her alone to talk. She was barren, which is a terrible fate for any FLDS woman, so she was essentially a slave to all the other women. She expressed interest in leaving but said she wanted to see what happened with the children, and if they would be protected…

    Do you think that woman thinks Texas had the power to protect those kids? Do you think she will believe for one moment that Texas can protect her?

    I only had two survivors come down for the picnic. Do you know why? It was because when Texas gave the last child back, they sent her to foster with an FLDS polygamist family in Utah. This was after many survivors had rushed to Texas, immediately following the rescue, offering to take their cousins or sisters and brothers to foster, but CPS told them that “Texas doesn’t foster children outside of our state”. Then they sent the last one to foster with polygamists? Hmmmmm….

    What Texas did, in failing to protect these children, was to effectively rip the heart and soul from the survivor’s fight. We know people who have been in this fight for 10-15 years up there, and when Texas sent them all back they were DONE.

    They threw up their hands and said, “I quit. I’m out. I can’t do this anymore. If Texas won’t protect them, no one will ever do it”.

    They don’t believe us anymore. If the survivors, who are already out felt this way, how do you think the victims still inside felt?

    Texas made a huge mistake and the only way for us to fix it, and to stop the spread of polygamy within our state is to garner a groundswell of support for the idea of prosecution of the offense, every single time it is found.

    Utah hasn’t failed; they have succeeded in protecting the crime until such a time as they could claim it was too big to do anything about. Arizona tucked its tail between its legs in 1953 and followed their lead.

    After the raid, Mark Shurtleff and Utah were so kind and helpful to send teams from the Safety Net Committee down here to advise our own CPS on how to deal with the situation with “cultural sensitivity”. They showed our state employees how to limit make up, eradicate the color red, insist the children be dressed and fed according to the demands of the cult, etc.

    This showed those children that their “prophet” was still firmly in control, even while they were in our protective custody.

    Thanks’ Utah!

    Is THIS who we want to be in Texas? Well, is it? You want to give them 50 years to make cemeteries here, like they have in Utah and Arizona? Is that the kind of compassion we want to be filled with?

    That’s right where we are headed thanks to Austin’s special team: Albert Hawkins, Beth Engleking, Phoebe Knuaer, Michele Surrat, Beverly Hutchins, Kathy Phillips and Treavor Woodruff.

    Please excuse me if I come off as hysterical, mean or over reactive in any way. I simply want my state to stand up for law and justice, and to protect the innocent children trapped in the abuse of polygamy.

    In other words I want us to do everything that Utah and Arizona have completely failed to do.

  377. CaJim, I don’t know the personal details of Sterling and Warren’s relationship, My point about Warren is that he didn’t ex people for “no reason”. Also what Warren did is nothing new among the mormon fundies, it seems every time there is a change in leadership, a big shakeup occurs. The big split in the ’50’s that resulted in the AUB at the time Leroy Johnson became prophet. The split and court battles that began in the ’80s when Rulon became prophet resulting in Cent. Park. Compared to those splits and battles, the Warren takeover was rather mild in that there was not a big internal split and relatively few left the FLDS, at least compared with the earlier shakeups.
    I do agree that the Mormon Fundies ought to come up with a smoother process for selecting leaders but ultimalely it is not our call to dictate to them how they must organize their hierarchy.

    CaJim, talk to Sterling’s wives and tell them they should go back with him or advocate for law banning mormon wives the right to leave their husband for any reason.

  378. deci skinwalker again shows his ignorance of the facts. When Warren took over he consolidated his power by purging many men whom he considered possible threats. The purge included an large number of the Barlows and has been referred to as the Barlow purge. Do some research instead of just blowing out whatever makes your heros warren and willie look good.

  379. Deci read Judge Robert S. Tullars closing remarks, found in Fiducuarys Exhibits, he likens the practice of polygamy to the practice of slavery but even more importantly his views and words today, more that 50 Years hence, are still as valid and lawful as when he first wrote them,”I am not a theologian, gentlemen. I am not qualified, nor is it necessary here, for me to attempt to interpret the word of God. With a lawyer’s, rather than a theologians approach, however. I searched the Bible and checked the citations given by your advocates as supporting the doctrine of polygamy…Yet I found, gentlemen, no affirmative approval of the doctrine of plural marriage”.

    “Individual research unearths no precedent to support you. Nor is this illogical. Were it to the contrary, nearly any crime could be defended against by waving a religious banner. Murder, rape, pillage, incest and all crimes of violence are dealt with in the Holy Bible…”

    Seems Judge Tullar’s closing statement that ‘no affirmative approval’ and ‘no precedent to support’ are still the legal limbo that houses the misguded and uninformed legal view of the FLDS Church and it’s congregation. The good judges opening states ,”Although fanaticism flourishes in ignorance…” as the hallmark finding in his courtroom case. Dress polygamy in any form of legitimacy doesn’t evoke solid Biblical scholarship nor lend credible Constitutional rights as precedents to the charges.

    Just uncovers a false and unfounded belief in a form of marriage which is illegal and highly suspect when claimed to be based upon the Holy Bible.

  380. deci let your fantasyland continue to describe a world circumspect of reality. Plural wives have no ‘legal standing’, we have a covert theocracy in fact that you fail to grasp no matter how many proofs are proffered. Keep defending the ‘Bill of Rights’ deci while the religious fanatics parade by with their conduct of repeated felonies all under the guise of civil disobedience. Do you still endorse felonies as acceptable actions for civil disobedience? Was Warren Jeffs flight from felony charges, valid civil protest? Stop ducking the truth and alluding to some constitutional right violation that simply does not exist and has no legal precedent except within your false beliefs.

  381. AMEN to that cajim. Unfortunately deci duaneh1 will protect illegal acts by the flds no matter what.

  382. That’s why he’s a troll.

  383. I’m not defending Warren jeffs and do not agree with many of the things he has done. No, he should not have gone on the run.

    BTW, the population of Utah is 62% Mormon, the state legislature is about 90% Mormon according to several different sources, at any rate it is a vast majority, this includes all the various local and state offices as well. There is not another state in the Union that is so dominated by a single religion.
    So by your own defintion, the state of Utah is one vast theocracy.

  384. “So by your own defintion, the state of Utah is one vast theocracy.”

    Out of the mouths of trolls..

  385. Boots, can you give us the names of all 300 “lost boys” who have been convicted of child molestation. At least give us the source.

  386. Boots, 90% Mormon in the legislature, The governor is a Mormon. Has there ever been a non-mormon governor in Utah?
    Yep, its a theocracy!

  387. deci skinwalker: Please provide the source for your information about apostates and non flds people throwing rocks in Hildale and Colorado City while wearing skimpy clothing.

  388. Duane,

    Flora did the research and stopped when she got to 300, because, frankly, she was afraid to look anymore.

    That happens to us, you know. We are human and we get tired, discouraged and plain fed up with knowing all this crap, when no one else even seems to care.

    So we’ll just keep on putting one foot in front of the other until we win.

    I’d never give you the info, but if Natalie Malonis, anyone from Texas CASA, Harvey Hildebran,the Texas AG, or the Rangers want it, I’ll be more than happy to turn it ALL over.

  389. skinwalker deci: Do you really think that Boots or I care if you call Utah a theocracy? Neither of us lives there anyway.

  390. ale wife, I heard it from 2nd hand sources, never said it was a fact and qualified it by saying “reports from short creek”. Yes it could be one big lie and they may be blowing smoke up my derrier, but thats what I heard, Shirtleff states it is like a mini civil war up, so such reports are credible.

    Most of the allegations against the FLDS, such as “300 lost boys convicted of molestation”, Brent Jeffs claim of being sodomized by WJeffs, Lyle, and Blaine during church services with each of them taking turns as lookups, mass graves in short creek full of murdered corpses, polygamists bearing children for the sole purpose of molesting them. These are all nothing but lies, lies and more lies. Most of you know that they are lies but the whole point of these fabrications is to whip up hatred against this minority sect.

  391. Deci do-ane,
    Your most recent post above this one (the one that is all black) is more insightful than most of your posts. Keep it up.

  392. Hold on – Did Duane get booted and then come back as deci? Seems to be the same arguments.

  393. Yep.

  394. Ron,
    That is quite possible. On the trib comment boards he was duaneh1, then he got booted and came back as skinwalker, then skinwalker disappeared and he became deci. One boot was because he posted a link to a virus site in a post and directed people to it for more flds information. Nice guy huh? The skinwalker name is appropriate.

  395. Decimated I have never heard of 300 sexually exploited ‘Lost Boys’? You must mean a master list of ‘Lost Boys’ which I recall you not lending any credence to and now your asserting they were all sexually molested which is false but there are over 500+ ‘Lost Boys’ in the past decade of 1999 to 2009.

    Do you deny 300+ ‘Lost Boys’ exist because you have refuted that fact in the past?

  396. Cajim,

    I think you’re a little lost in the conversation.

    There are 1,000 or more lost boys. Duane/Deci/whoever is challenging the fact that Flora has documented 300 of them who have been convicted of sex crimes against children since they’ve been dumped.

    She stopped looking when she got to 300, it was just making her sick.

    The point is that if you are molested as a child, your chances of becoming a molester go way up. The boys who have been dumped were obviously victims of such molestation, as many children are within polygamy. I’m not even asserting that it was the FLDS adults who did the molesting…could have been big brothers, cousins, uncles…and yes, we do definitely know of female molesters within the FLDS.

    He just doesn’t want to accept that this is a sex cult, or that even if the adults weren’t responsible for the initial molestations, their inability to properly supervise that many children amounts to gross neglect….yet another wonderful byproduct of the crime of polygamy.

  397. Boots I have to stand corrected on your information but deci comes from a place were ‘Lost Boys’ don’t exist in hundreds but are a slanderous lie aimed at FLDS Church congregation. He seems of late more accepting of their larger numbered existence, since so many were documented by Canadian officials. In reference to sex crimes are a portion of these associated with street prostitution which is a known consequence of homeless teens, both boys and girls?

  398. Cajim,

    Well, Mark Shurtleff has affidavits from over 400 Lost Boys sitting in his office, and not one prosecution of a single FLDS parent for child abandonment or endangerment to show for them all.

    Flora is pretty sharp to the difference between being convicted of a sex crime such as urinating in public, or prostitution, and a sex crime committed against a child.

    Although they were convicted for molestation, not one was sent to jail, all received probation.

    The only exception would be the boy who demanded his 14 year old girlfriend have sex with him in public, at a party. When she refused him, he shot her in the head and raped her body right there.

    He did get sent to prison, although he was VERY confused about “why”, since she was just a female who had refused to submit to him. He just couldn’t understand why that would have been any sort of crime…

  399. duane wrote “Betty, ask the women if they consider themselves slaves.”

    It doesn’t really matter what they consider themselves. I don’t know what else you can call it: a man told another man to give each one of them ‘mind, body and soul’ to a third man for life as a vessel for his seed. If the prophet throws that man out he gives the women away again to a different man and she is supposed to spread her legs for him. They preach that the man is ‘god in the home’. Betty Jessop said to her mother that she couldn’t take them away ‘because they belong to the prophet’. Their religion states that women are property made by god FOR the man. How many times have we heard that from the Patriarchs here online? Woman is FOR the man. OK. Calling it anything but slavery is putting lipstick on a pig. They may be happy, happy, going to heaven slaves, but if they accept assigned marriage and remarriage, they are slaves.

  400. “Boots I have to stand corrected on your information but deci comes from a place were ‘Lost Boys’ don’t exist in hundreds but are a slanderous lie aimed at FLDS Church congregation.”

    He also comes from a world, apparently, where dumping your 16 year old on the highway cause they listen to loud music is reasonable and/or legal. Depends upon how the wind is blowing at the moment. As long as he can keep arguing and it doesn’t interfere with his lifestyle thang fantasy.

  401. JENNIFER J. FREYD, PH.D., author of “Betrayal Trauma: The Logic of Forgetting Childhood Abuse.” “Despite this documentation for both traumatic amnesia and essentially accurate delayed recall, memory science is often presented as if it supports the view that traumatic amnesia is very unlikely or perhaps impossible and that a great many, perhaps a majority, maybe even all, recovered memories of abuse are false….Yet no research supports such an implication…and a great deal of research supports the premise that forgetting sexual abuse is fairly common and that recovered memories are sometimes essentially true.”

    ****************************
    Do I believe Brent Jeffs was sodomized, YES I certainly do.

  402. So do I , DD, so do I. I believe every word that Brent Jeffs states about it.

    Brent unfortunately isn’t the only one who has had a traumatic childhood and survived by “closing the door” on it, so to speak.
    And yes, many times there are triggers that you feel uneasy about and are not sure why.

    There are alot of victims out there that survive the same way. Anyone who doesn’t understand it or can’t comprehend it, have never lived it or been around it. Therefore, they have no idea what they are talking about and should shut their mouth.

  403. MissGirl: “Anyone who doesn’t understand it or can’t comprehend it, have never lived it or been around it.”

    Or maybe they are simply a sexual predator themselve’s, who envies the FLDS’s efficient “grow your own” program?

  404. Isn’t that the truth? I can’t imagine anyone sticking up for a group that perpetuates child abuse, enslavement of women & children & total disregard for the laws we have established in our country!!

  405. Boots,

    Do ya’ll have materials that you hand out at events & fundraiser’s?

  406. Darlin, I can help you with anything you need. Just shoot me an email and we’ll figure it all out. I have a good volunteer graphic designer.

  407. After the raid, Mark Shurtleff and Utah were so kind and helpful to send teams from the Safety Net Committee down here to advise our own CPS on how to deal with the situation with “cultural sensitivity”. They showed our state employees how to limit make up, eradicate the color red, insist the children be dressed and fed according to the demands of the cult, etc.

    This showed those children that their “prophet” was still firmly in control, even while they were in our protective custody.

    Thanks’ Utah!

    Boots don’t forget the FLDS took classes on how to become foster parents and the State of Utah provided the classes they attended.

    Naomi Carlisle is pure FLDS and was a foster parent for her brother Frank Johnson after his children where taken during the raid.

    Now Carlisle has duped CPS. Carlisle was allowed to go to William Suderland Jessop funeral so what does that tell you.

    She is not an apostate, she is pure FLDS.

  408. Carlisle didn’t have to dupe anyone, CPS duped themselves,by non-suiting children being raised in abusive homes!

  409. It may cost to jail the first generation of mom and dads and to remove the children from the criminal families but in the long run much cheaper then continuing to fund their criminal “lifestyles”.
    —————————————————
    It would be cheaper yet just to make folks living in a polygamous relation ineligible for government services.

  410. I want polygamy prosecuted. I don’t care about the gender, religion or background of the criminal; they ALL belong in jail. If I have anything to say about it here in Texas, that’s exactly where they will all go.
    =======================================================
    So how come you are asking for stricter enforcement of adultery laws. In that case there is a real victim. The spouse who is unaware of it.

  411. Those of us who are already concerned about the poverty, which always follows polygamy, don’t see that as a better option for the children.

    The children are the ones who suffer for the bad/criminal choices of their parents here. Most known criminals don’t get to keep their children. I don’t exactly see why polygamists should be exempt from that norm.

  412. That being said, Utah having lied and tricked its way into our Union, I do not expect it to ever be a free state for women.
    ————————————————-
    So by a free state for women you mean women who only engages of relationships you approve of or face severe criminal penalties?

  413. Alin, because I’m not making moral judgements on who people want to sleep with. I am concerned that the crime of polygamy enslaves women, and is harmful to children.

    I have yet to see whole communities, or compounds of people dedicated to the commission of adultery, and the production of as many bastards as they can possibly produce. When I do, we can talk about it. Until then, let’s stick to the subject at hand.

    If you want to see someone rail against adultery, please attend the synagogue or church of your choice, which focuses on these sins. I am unconcerned with people’s sins, just their crimes.

  414. They arrested a man here today, his 3 month old baby was taken to the hospital, the man had BITTEN the baby 3 times, because it wouldn’t STOP crying!! MY GOD!!!! What the hell is wrong with parents???

  415. Those of us who are already concerned about the poverty, which always follows polygamy, don’t see that as a better option for the children.
    ==============================================
    I dunno. A lot of families seemed fairly well off.
    ===============================================
    Most known criminals don’t get to keep their children.
    ===============================================
    Actually most known criminals do keep their children unless they are accused or convicted of abusing them. So polygamist wouldn’t be exempt from the norm.

  416. I have yet to see whole communities, or compounds of people dedicated to the commission of adultery, and the production of as many bastards as they can possibly produce. When I do, we can talk about it. Until then, let’s stick to the subject at hand.
    =======================================================
    OMG! Did you just call an innocent baby a bastard?
    ==============================================
    ….is harmful to children.
    =============================================
    Bigotry and hatred is harmful to children.

  417. Really alinusara? Fact is bigamy and polygamy are illegal. So, the first wife is legal, and her children are legal, the second, third , fourth, and 10th wives are illegal, and their children are by legal definition bastards,, Ugly aint it?
    But if one of those illegal wives leaves,, you know what she gets legally???? NADA!!!!

  418. If the legal wife leaves, guess what? She gets HALF of all the assets!!!

  419. deputydog1 said this on July 1, 2009 at 10:10 AM
    Ive said from the begining, it’s discrimination!!!! Discriminating against people by kicking them out of a town because they question FLDS doctrine. Discrmination against girls, and boys.

    REPLY: However, this is NOT “A Town”, a run of the mill-American democracy-town, for any drifter who cares to squat and drop what’s in him. Evernyone knows, authorities, dissidents, faithful, everyone, that THIS town was created as a Theocracy, exclusively FOR the FLDS faith.

    Everyone knows that is their Constitutional right in a House of God, as much as it is YOUR right to kick out every rebel or squatter within your own house. If this were not so, then every FLDS faithful individual could squat on YOUR property, as well as on the Capital and the Courthouse, and the White House, and have the legal right to posses it.

  420. Curious, constitutionally, any drifter can come to town! Constitutionally, Religion of any kind or belief doesn’t have a right to kick anyone anywhere. As you keep pointing out curious, we live in a free country, and have the freedom to live and believe anyway we want… But religious entities have NO right to force anyone IN or OUT of a town or a house!

  421. Curious, FLDS doctrine teaches hatred! You have thousands of FLDS members and xmemebers who are Family, HATING EACH OTHER!!!
    Brothers and Sisters who haven’t talked to each other in years for WHAT??? A false Doctrine? Some damn weenie prophet who demands to be worshiped?

  422. They do if the town and house are owned by the church. Regardless of who may come along and take over, unless that is ordained of God, the Prophet having told them: “You people don’t deserve a prophet”, and also: “The United Effort Plan is rejected of God”, says the Prophet.

    But the church that is not rejected of God, in the eyes and decree of the recognized leader, owns their church, and their property, and their minds and souls, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. It is justice to kick out all who disobey the theocratic rule of God, according to the standards and morals of the community, according to the Constitution and the Supreme Law that no law shall be leveled against an establishment of religion.

    That is YOUR LAW, see. Don’t like it. Then see if you can change it. It hangs by a thread (Warren Jeffs), and God will uphold it.

  423. They do (have the right to force people OUT of a hown or a house), if it’s owned by the church…etc.

  424. Curious, sorry I haven’t responded to your earlier rant, but I do have to work.

    No theocracies allowed in America: see the establishment clause of the First Amendment and the equal protection clause of the 14th.

    (And please don’t make me explain why the establishment clause applies to states as well as the Federal government; I have a headache.)

  425. Curious, I have to hand it to you—your understanding of theology is only eclipsed by your grasp on the Constitution.

  426. But if one of those illegal wives leaves,, you know what she gets legally???? NADA!!!!
    =============================================
    Much like a mistress would get at the end of a relationship. Let the punishment fit the crime.
    =================================================
    But religious entities have NO right to force anyone IN or OUT of a town or a house!
    =======================================================
    Religious entities most certainly do have the right to force anyone out of a house, but not town, if said religious entity owns the house.

  427. Greetings from New York: July 2, 2009 at 7:28 PM

    Ahh, you like to say “this says that, and that says this, without saying what it says. Get with it, boah. Churches are theocracies.
    Yes, you do have a headache. That is clear.

  428. Brothers and Sisters who haven’t talked to each other in years for WHAT???
    ===================================================
    You would force family members in dispute to talk to each other? I mean it’s a real good idea on paper for themn to communicate but to have our government force communications seems a bit out there.

  429. PROOF THAT ADAM IS GOD:

    I promised this article a couple days ago, so your appetite must be gigantuous by now. A delicious morsel for all my little brothers and sisters, the poo-poos of Assiyah. Now fold your little hands snuggly and tight, and don’t forget the blessing.

    “It is the first principle of revealed religion to know who God is, and how to become like Him” (TPJS).

    “And there was a war in heaven. Michael and His angels (ahh, this shows that Michael is God), fought
    against the dragon (Satan). And the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not. Neither was THEIR place found any more in heaven” (Rev.12:7-8).

    Who is “their” place? Michael, Satan, and their angels, who all came down to this earth. So now, this also shows that Adam is Michael and God, since it was both Adam and Satan who came down into the Garden of Eden.

    Furthermore, “Michael the Arch-Angel…said to Satan: “The Lord rebuke thee (Jude 9). Ahh, see, Michael is that arch-angel. He’s the one (Adam) who first ARCHED from heaven to earth, when he came into Eden as a Celestial and exalted being, before the fall.

    Furthermore, does not God say of Himself: “I am the beginning and the end”? Who was the beginning of this world? Everyone knows that His name is Adam, “unto God and His Father (Rev.1:6-8), who spoke to Him in the Garden.

    There is more…there is much more: “None hold with me…but Michael, your Prince” (Daniel 10:21). Who is the Prince of mankind? Jehovah God (Jesus) spoke to a man in the Garden of Eden, His eldest Son. That makes Him the Prince, does it not? In any kingdom or world, the firstborn is the Prince, which Adam is, and Christ is His firstborn pertaining to the flesh, as Adam does. And for you Mormons, this is simply confirmed: “With Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the Ancient of Days” (D&C 27:11). All this helps people to understand more clearly “Who God is”, and does not Jesus say: “I am the Father AND the Son” (Father of Adam in the heavens, and His Son in the world).

    Want more? The Hebrew for “Adam” is: “Ababuah”, Abba being Father. Did not Christ refer often to His Father? And what does Ababuah (or Adam) mean? “Inflammatory, to gleam”. So we see that this is a mighty angel, even Michael the Arch-Angel, next to Christ His Father, who spoke to Him in Eden, who “holds forth with Him”, and Daniel says (Daniel 10:21). From the beginning, there was none other holding forth with Jehovah (YHVH). The Greek for Adam is “Adam”, which means “The first man, a type of Jesus, as His representative” (end-quote).

    The Hebrew for Michael is “Yeremay” (or Ye Ray-May, or You may be a ray of light), which means: “Elevated” (end-quote): So, Michael was elevated, but from what? From the fall, see? This points directly back to Adam. Also, Mic-Hael: Get it? “Hail Micro”, or the creation of the very small (Atom, or Adam), as in Micro-El or Michael (El means God). Here, we see a direct connection between the two names (Mic and Atom). So Michael and Adam are the same man. He is the former of all life-form, from their very beginnings (their Atoms). This is why it was Adam who was to name all things (Gen.2:19), because He is the one who formed all of creation, through the life-force or energy-strings of Jehovah, His Father, the Creator, the life and the Way. Does not the name “Christ” contain the word “chi” within it? And the “R” means Head, in Hebrew.

    Four-Square, or four worlds of creation: Elohim (Emination of Azilut), Jehovah (Creation of Beriah), Michael (Formation of Yetzirah), and Ratzial (Maker of Assiyah). These four come down from heaven are Enoch, Jesus, Adam, and Joseph, the four governing personages of this earth, and the heavens pertaining to this earth and its living souls, in three degrees within three degrees, or Solar-System (nine planets).

    Adam being our Father, “There is none good but the Father”, say Jesus of this man (Matt.19:17). Is it not good to be the Father of all living? Certainly. But “Adam sinned”, you say. How is that good, let alone God? The true Christian can tell you, because only the true Christian, the followers of the fundamentals of God’s law, believe and accept Him and His Word, to wit: “Adam was not deceived, but the woman” (end-quote: I Tim.2:14). I glory in the fact that I have an old Bible with gold-leaf inscription of the name on the cover: Adam Christ Eversole. I cannot tell you where I got it.

    So like I began, “it is the first principle of revealed religion to know who God is”. The how is in the fundamentals of a Latter Day Saint. He came to Missouri, or Misery, to give life to all of His children.

    Street

  430. Alinsura, You can be kicked out a church! But its just a building where you attend meetings,, No church has aright to kick you out of your house, take your family away from you, or your children, or fire you because you were kicked out of church, That MY DEAR is against the Constitution!

  431. The Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination in housing based upon religion. There is a limited exemption for religious organizations to reserve non-commercial housing for persons of the same religion. To figure out if you qualify, check to see if you’re living in an ashram, monastery or convent. If not, you probably don’t.

    There is also an exemption for renting out a unit in a small owner-occupied building. But in housing sales, there are no exemptions at all.

    It is also illegal to threaten, coerce, intimidate or interfere with anyone exercising a fair housing right. Hear that, Wee Willie?

  432. Alinusara10 said this on July 2, 2009 at 6:36 PM
    That being said, Utah having lied and tricked its way into our Union, I do not expect it to ever be a free state for women.
    ————————————————-
    So by a free state for women you mean women who only engages of relationships you approve of or face severe criminal penalties?

    REPLY: OR…The Union having lied and trick its way into our Zion, which is all of North and South America. After all, the U.S. DID steal the lands, and even killed for them.

  433. “They showed our state employees how to limit make up, eradicate the color red, insist the children be dressed and fed according to the demands of the cult, etc”

    That is called respect for their religious and cultural beliefs. Same applies if you are dealing with an ultra-orthodox Jewish or Amish community.

    because I’m not making moral judgements on who people want to sleep with

    Boots you have a really great sense of humor ROFLAMO!!!

    Naomi Carlisle…She is not an apostate, she is pure FLDS

    As opposed to? How do you know she is not merely half-a$$ed FLDS?

    You cannot discriminate against someone merely for their religious beliefs!! It is amazing that one would openly advocate for such discrimination.

    GFNY, the UEP is private property, there are no housing sales taking place on it.

  434. Curious, knowing what the Bill of Rights says and how it works is such fundamental information that I shouldn’t have to explain to you.

    But, here: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…”

    The due process clause of the 14th Amendment is understood to make the First Amendment applicable to state governments. Go ahead and challenge that if you want, but I don’t think you’ll get far.

    So, Utah can make no law establishing a theocracy in Short Creek or prohibiting non-FLDS people from wandering around in their tank tops and piercings.

  435. The lands that were long controlled by Mexico, and by the Native tribes, and by Noah before that. So God had to sweep off all the squatters, dwown them like cats, and leave the land to later be discovered by Nephi and Mormon…Whadayaknow, by the Mormons.

  436. “REPLY: However, this is NOT “A Town”, a run of the mill-American democracy-town, for any drifter who cares to squat and drop what’s in him. Evernyone knows, authorities, dissidents, faithful, everyone, that THIS town was created as a Theocracy, exclusively FOR the FLDS faith.”

    Theocracies are not valid in America. If the FLDS truly want to have one then they need to stop wasting money buying property here in the United States and put it to use buying an island somewhere where they can legally have one. In America, the separation of Church and State means that tax dollars cannot be used to fund a theocracy. And since the two towns are incorporated under the laws of the United States of America, they CANNOT legally be a theocracy. Nothing in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, OR the Constitution give anyone that right in America.

  437. Greetings from New York said this on July 2, 2009 at 7:56 PM
    So, Utah can make no law establishing a theocracy in Short Creek or prohibiting non-FLDS people from wandering around in their tank tops and piercings.

    REPLY: Ahh, see? No, not all readers know that. I think studies show that maybe 1% actually know what it says. So you have to bring that out. Thanks. Then you also have to apply it correctly. It is NOT the state that establishes theocracy by any damn law, but the obligation of the state to no legislate against one that’s established. Limited Government, see?

  438. to NOT legislated against one…

  439. “The lands that were long controlled by Mexico, and by the Native tribes, and by Noah before that. So God had to sweep off all the squatters, dwown them like cats, and leave the land to later be discovered by Nephi and Mormon…Whadayaknow, by the Mormons.”

    And Joseph, the original Mormon, rode a rainbow colored unicorn to the land of America, after he remained in suspended animation as the last surviving Mormon from their amazingly genocidal wars of which there is absolutly no shred of evidence. Not a horse’s skull (because they didn’t exist in America when Joseph claimed they did) not a pot or a stray grapevine or even a sheep’s skeleton. No refined metals, no armor, no mass graveyards with the millions of Nephites and Lamenites and whatever-else-ites Joseph might have imagined. Nothing, nada, zip…

  440. duane, FLDS are in several states, and none of the states they are in are Theocratic states, each state has it’s own laws, which don’t include discrimination on Religious , Racial, or ethic beliefs. Nor does federal law allow such discrimination.
    Now, if FLDS want to buy an island somewhere in the middle of the ocean, then it be longs only to them.. But until they do that, they such as we have to go by the laws of THIS country.

  441. Rebeckah: July 2, 2009 at 8:05 PM
    Ahh, all of that was lost, and is found, and yes Joseph certainly did fly on a rainbow to this land, as an angel from on High. Thanks for acknowledging that, sweety.

  442. Duane, the only accommodation I make for my Orthodox next-door neighbor is maintaining a discreet physical distance so that I don’t actually brush up against him and force him to undergo ritual purification in case I’m menstruating.

    Other than that, I blast Christian radio while I mow the lawn in shorts and a t-shirt or cook pork hot dogs on the grill. I invite him to my house and he invites us to theirs. Our houses are ten feet apart, and we are friends.

    The only accommodation I make for the Amish I am currently doing business with is to offer them cold lemonade when they arrive. And we are getting along just fine. (I told you that I told one of them about your comparison between the Amish and FLDS, didn’t I? And how he was offended, said they were religious poseurs and that he’d read “Escape” and liked it?)

  443. “It is NOT the state that establishes theocracy by any damn law, but the obligation of the state to no legislate against one that’s established. Limited Government, see?”

    Which is why having a theocracy for an incorporated town in the US is illegal. Federal dollars go to support government infrastructer, employees, whatever and that is against the Constitution. Since the towns of Short Creek gleefully accept government dollars they need to accept that they don’t get to be a theocracy. The Constitution forbids even the establishment by the government of brand new, I get a harem because God told me so, religions.

  444. “Ahh, all of that was lost, and is found, and yes Joseph certainly did fly on a rainbow to this land, as an angel from on High. Thanks for acknowledging that, sweety.”

    Liar. None of it has been found — ever — after years and years of looking and millions of dollars spent. And according to history, Joseph Smith was born in America and spent many years on smaller scams before he came up with this bigger scam that so many men liked so much.

    And since you have proven yourself a liar, and proven your quote is accurate — That NONE do good — I bid you adieu. I have no interest in listing to the ravings of a minion of the devil such as you.

  445. EDIT -ADMIN

  446. Rebeckah, you go girl!!!!! LOL 🙂

    Im kinda interested where them plates went that old Joe said he found!! LOL

  447. The trust is under the aegis of the Utah courts and governed by trust law. If the settlement establishes a religiously-divided community in Short Creek, the state of Utah will have made “a law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”

  448. Rebeckah said this on July 2, 2009 at 8:12 PM
    And since you have proven yourself a liar, and proven your quote is accurate — That NONE do good — I bid you adieu. I have no interest in listing to the ravings of a minion of the devil such as you.

    REPLY: Oh no,

    EDIT ADMIN

  449. curious, how long does the looney bin let you out everyday? I think its been to long today, you need your meds!

  450. Curious, that you spew poisonous drivel which misrepresents God is bad enough. (There aren’t enough hours in the day to answer it point-by-point—if you don’t want me to ignore it, you have to keep it short.)

    That you do it in such an infantile, brutish way is reprehensible. You do realize, don’t you, that you cement loyalty to and affection for Rebeckah when you speak to her like that?

  451. Greetings from New York said this on July 2, 2009 at 8:18 PM
    The trust is under the aegis of the Utah courts and governed by trust law. If the settlement establishes a religiously-divided community in Short Creek, the state of Utah will have made “a law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”

    REPLY: The trust is a religious trust, which therefore is not under some court. The settlement is coming to recognize that, and thus the settlement, see, recognizing that such laws cannot apply to a religion. That is the Supreme Law of the land, YOUR LAW. But you don’t like that evidence. You only want to destroy religion and morals in America, especially if they are conservative and according to the strick Biblical law of God. Man never did like that, so man has to face the consequences if they disobey the Lord of life, and the upright lords of government. There still are some.

    Street

  452. So that’s the ‘Adam-God’ doctrine no wonder it was never adopted as a major tenet of the LDS Church. Curious tell us about the enclave of people living on the Moon, why dinosaurs never existed and the apollo Moon Landing was a farcical hoax.

  453. GFNY, as I said earlier, the state of Utah is a theocracy as the the majority of residents and it’s Governor, Senators, about 90% or so of its legislature, Congressmen (all of them?), and various other government positions are LDS members. Also, the LDS has enormous influence over state government. It seems that the LDS gave the go ahead for the revision of Utah’s liquor laws.

    Explain how Utah is not a theocracy given your definition of “theocracy” as it relates to the twin towns?

  454. Curious

    EXODUS 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
    20:2 I am Jehovah thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

    20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

    20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
    20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me,
    20:6 and showing lovingkindness unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

    I would think this would apply to calling ADAM OR MICHAEL a god OR even WARREN.

  455. Curious, UEPtrust is NOT a religious,nor a charitable trust, that was decided in 1998 by the courts….. try again!

  456. GFNY, are you familiar with the village of Kiryas Joel? If this community incorporated and formed its own town council and little police force drawn from the community, would it be a “theocracy”?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiryas_Joel

    The median income for a household in the village was $15,138, and the median income for a family was $15,372. Males had a median income of $25,043 versus $16,364 for females. The per capita income for the village was $4,355. About 61.7% of families and 62.2% of the population were below the poverty line, including 63.9% of those under age 18 and 50.5% of those age 65 or over.

    According 2008 census figures, the village has the highest poverty rate in the nation, and the largest percentage of residents who receive food stamps. More than two-thirds of Kiryas Joel residents live below the federal poverty line and more than 40 percent receive food stamps, according to the American Community Survey

  457. Curious, the trust is explicitly NOT a religious trust. Until the FLDS recognizes that, nobody is getting anywhere.

    The reformed trust was created as a secular entity by an uncontested, binding ruling of Utah’s judiciary. It came to that because WSJ was letting the wind list where it might, and the state stepped in so that the residents of Short Creek didn’t lose their chemises.

    (BTW, Bruce Wisan has recovered $8 million in stolen assets and returned them to the trust. More than offsets his $3 million in expenses. That $3 million represents less than 3% of the total assets in the trust, making the trust’s expenses less than what Fidelity charges me to shuffle papers.)

    Now, go ahead and tell me that the court was illegitimate because it decided something you don’t like. I’ll ignore that too–it’s a five-year-old’s argument.

  458. duane, if a city anywhere in the United States, accepts Federal monies, for schools, streets, buildings, sheriffs dept, police depts, courts, food stamps, welfare, they are NOT a theocratic state. I don’t care if just 10 people live there.

  459. Federal Money is TAXPAYER money duane!! DO YOU understand that?

  460. To be more specific, citing the same article:
    According 2008 census figures, the village has the highest poverty rate in the nation, more than two-thirds of residents live below the federal poverty line and 40% receive food stamps

    So, are these Jews sponging off welfare?

  461. There are lots of towns regardless of religion duane that fall below the poverty line recieving benefits. Just like the clinic in Colorado city, they recieve federal funding, so by law it should be open to ANYONE who needs use of the clinic. It can’t discriminate just becasue a person isn’t flds.

  462. Ok deputydawg, Short creek accepts Federal money so they are not a theocracy, in fact a theocracy is by definition a state, the twin towns are just that towns, whom the majority of the residents are of the same religious belief, so thanks for clearing that up. You need to explain to the rest of your compadres why CO city and Hilldale are not theocracies.

  463. Are Atheists and Methodist, Catholics , baptists who live below the poverty line getting welfare, yes Im sure they are, but they aren’t theocracies either duane.

  464. I remember reading in Warrens dictations how people were sent to Dallas for medical care duane, if FLDS were totally theocratic, they would send them to their own towns, where their own doctors practiced without the help of the federal government, problem with that is,, its unconstituional.

  465. deputydawg, it didn’t discriminate, the doctor was full and wasn’t accepting anymore patients.

    ADMIN – EDIT

    duane you have been warned about your language, keep it clean.

  466. duane, but then why are they allowed to remove families from houses, husbands from jobs, children from fathers, and kick them out of town? No man has a right to control another man’s destiny duane.

  467. duane, the clinic is closed to anyone but FLDS in good standing. They have built a huge fence around it with a gate and a guard.
    You aren’t flds in good standing, you don’t GET IN!

  468. correction: “he” didn’t discriminate.

    their own doctors practiced without the help of the federal government, problem with that is,, its unconstituional.

    Huh?

  469. According to the hypocratic oath a doctor takes duane,NO! Clinics and hospitals recieve federal monies. Unless they are funded privately, which FLDS clinic ISN”T.

  470. deputydawg, I tell you what, I will call them, explain that I’m an agostic dude who smokes and cusses, and would they accept me as a patient. Will get back with you guys.

    Later

  471. duane, I don’t know ONE doctor who doesn’t get federal funding.. They couldn’t afford to treat medicare, medicaid patients without it, because they bill those entities for payment.

  472. If two patients show up a the Flds clinc, one is FLDS in good standing, and the other xflds, guess who gets treated duane?

  473. deputydawg, one last thing, If my bigot neighbor who btw not only hated blacks, but jews, catholics and of course fundie mormon polygamists, showed up at my clinic with a gunshot wound, I would treat him to the best of my ability, I’m talking about non-emergencies.

  474. I have to go now deputydawg, I will call the clinic in hilldale.

  475. deputydog1 said this on July 2, 2009 at 8:47 PM
    duane, but then why are they allowed to remove families from houses, husbands from jobs, children from fathers, and kick them out of town? No man has a right to control another man’s destiny duane.

    REPLY: It’s called “the conscent of the governed. The members all conscented and agreed that “the priesthood rules in their lives”. When that ceases, then the houses and the families go to the priesthood whom they acknowledged as the owners of their houses and of their families, and of their very lives, in the Lord. Anything else is just a rejection of the Lord, for He rules and owns all houses, and all families, and our very lives, see.

    That’s good basic government, self-government, and national government, or else as history has proven, they are simply sluffed off. End of story.

  476. duane you are out of line with your racist/hate filled question and asteriks are not an acceptable guise of flaunting the no porno vocabulary.

  477. Curious

    Our good government has sluffed off Warren and penned his evil devil up in a cage to keep him from harming others.

    Dont look a gift horse in the mouth. Its time for a new leader, seeing those SHEEPLE need one to lead them around by the nose.

  478. Duane, I am familiar with both Kiryas Joel and the town of Monroe in which it is located. Its presence is less weird than you imagine because it is on the fringe of the old Borscht Belt.

    Kiryas Joel is only the most visible of many shtetls here. Nobody objects to predominantly religious communities if they don’t violate the law—for example, Satmars also live in Williamsburg in Brooklyn. And to my knowledge none of the Satmars are openly committing crimes.

    After the death of the Satmar leader, Rebbe Moshe Teitelbaum, in 2006, the group entered a long internal feud over succession. They tried to have it adjudicated by a Beth Din (rabbinical court), which went nowhere. They attempted to take the succession problem into the courts, which refused to get involved. So the Kiryas Joel group is under one rebbe and the Williamsburg group under another. And that is one clear difference between New York and Utah—here everyone runs to the courts for relief.

    We’re a very contentious bunch of people. The Kiryas Joel school system was slapped down in the Supreme Court because of the establishment clause. Their bid to tax-exempt their village went nowhere. They’ve been knocked around since they arrived there in 2000 over building permits, code violations, etc. They can’t exclude law enforcement, code officers, CPS, or anyone else, and they can’t stop anyone from driving on the street.

    FWIW, you won’t get me to defend the Satmars in Orange County. They’re abysmally poor because men spend their time arguing about Talmud instead of working. They would dry up and blow away if New York didn’t have such generous, no-strings public assistance.

  479. Duane, absolutely the Kiryas Joel Satmars are sponging off welfare. You been paying any attention to the recent antics of our state government? We can’t even get them to decide whether or not to accept the pizza they ordered; stamping out welfare abuse is completely beyond them.

  480. Oy gevalt

  481. Can’t they just give it all back to the Dutch? Oh nevermind, now that I recall a lot of those early dutch settlers were conversos. That’s right. They may have been using dutch names but they were jews.

  482. ANYBODY GOT ANY COMMENTS ON THIS?

    William E. Jessop (born William E. Timpson) is a leader in the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS Church).

    In a January 2007 telephone conversation between Jessop and church president Warren Jeffs, Jeffs suggested that Jessop was the rightful leader of the FLDS Church.

    In a jailhouse visit with his brother Nephi, Jeffs reportedly stated that “Brother William E. Jessop has been the prophet” of the FLDS Church since the death of Rulon Jeffs.

    Jessop should not be confused with Willie Jessop, a frequent spokesperson for the FLDS Church.

    Family background

    Jessop is the son of Alma A. Timpson and one of his wives, Kathy. In the mid-1980s, Timpson had a falling out with FLDS Church leader Leroy S. Johnson and left the FLDS Church to start the schismatic Centennial Park Group.

    However, his wife Kathy refused to follow him, and she and her children remained with the FLDS Church members. Kathy became the wife of Fred Jessop, and William adopted his step-father’s surname.

    Claim to leadership

    Prior to his death, Rulon Jeffs had instructed his son Warren Jeffs to ordain William Jessop to be a counselor to Fred Jessop, who was a bishop in the FLDS Church in Hildale, Utah.

    Warren Jeffs now claims that when he performed this ordination, he made William Jessop an apostle—the highest priesthood ordination in the church—and that this ordination now gives Jessop the right to lead the FLDS Church.

    However, because Jessop lives in Utah and the majority of FLDS Church members have moved to the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas, the de facto leader of most members in the FLDS Church is probably (indicted) Merril Jessop, the bishop at YFZ Ranch.

    http://conservativetradition.blog-giant.com/2009/05/28/william-e-jessop/

  483. ANYBODY HAVE A COMMENT ON THIS?

    http://conservativetradition.blog-giant.com/2009/05/28/william-e-jessop/

    William E. Jessop (born William E. Timpson) is a leader in the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS Church).

    In a January 2007 telephone conversation between Jessop and church president Warren Jeffs, Jeffs suggested that Jessop was the rightful leader of the FLDS Church. In a jailhouse visit with his brother Nephi, Jeffs reportedly stated that “Brother William E. Jessop has been the prophet” of the FLDS Church since the death of Rulon Jeffs.

    Jessop should not be confused with Willie Jessop, a frequent spokesperson for the FLDS Church.

    CONT

  484. Curious American civil liberties and civil rights are not secondary to religious tenets nor voluntary agreements. American citizen rights take first position and are primary in our legal laws or codes and in our courtrooms. Any agreements made with a religious Priesthood at best run secondary to individual rights of an American citizen. You seem to suggest that the consent of the governed takes some precedent above or beyond our legal justice and courts, you are seriously flawed in your beliefs and the rule of Law & Order takes priority over your rules by churchmen. This is the way every American has been governed since American liberties have come into existence in 1782 and long before Joseph Smith began his ministry.

  485. Greetings said:

    (I told you that I told one of them about your comparison between the Amish and FLDS, didn’t I? And how he was offended, said they were religious poseurs and that he’d read “Escape” and liked it?

    Regina “rericson” used to always try to make the same parallel. I always told her that I’d bet the Amish would be insulted by the comparison. About all the Amish and the FLDS share in common are some anachronistic sociological customs. Theologically and ideologically the two groups are worlds apart.

  486. Duane here is his number.

    Dr. Lehi Barlow
    Family Practice
    1065 N Hildale St
    Hildale Health Service Center
    Hildale, UT

    (435) 874-2217

    Insurance plans accepted HealthNet

  487. DR. LEHI BARLOW, DO
    501 NORTH NAVAJO DR
    PAGE, AZ 86040
    Phone: (520) 645-2424

  488. Dr. Lehi Samuel Barlow
    Family Practice
    501 N Navajo
    313-343-1490
    Page, AZ 86040

    Gee he get’s around take your pick.

  489. Yes, please duane, let us know when your appointment is!

  490. What kind of bozo thinks it knows of a town owned by a church? It ain’t so. UEP has little to nothing to do with FLDS.

    Do you bozos know what a Trust even is? #1 it has nothing to do with some sect calling itself a religion, just as there is no religion called bigamy or polygamy or sexual assault of children or cannabalism or human sacrifice or any other such illegal acts.

    No Trust can allow human rights or legal rights given by the US Constutution or any US State’s laws to be abridged or taken away.

  491. Admin and others, I just want to apologize for being a bit rude yesterday. (i.e. calling Street a liar). While he WAS lying, I believe it was probably wrong of me to say so in so many words. I tend to be blunt and as hard as I try, tact is something I haven’t mastered yet. I will, however, continue to try to learn tact and I will also continue to ignore Street. He’s proven to my satisfaction (by his own twisted use of scripture) that neither he nor the FLDS are “good” anyway. Frankly, since there are “none” who do good, I have to wonder why any of them listen to any man. hmmmm….

    😉

  492. “No Trust can allow human rights or legal rights given by the US Constutution or any US State’s laws to be abridged or taken away.”

    No trust can be used to entice or coerce beneficiaries into breaking the law either. The FLDS are just “lucky” they got away with it for so long. It should be shut down now, though.

  493. Not to worry, Rebeckah…. He is quite close to being banned due to his behavior.

  494. That’s correct duane towns cannot be theocracies and nations cannot be carved out of our US States. Cults cannot make laws for themselves AND CERTAINLY NOT FOR OTHERS that do not apply under the US or State Constitutions, phony theocracy or not. Nor can they disregard US laws.

    If they take our taxpayers money they live under our Constitution. Period.

    I have watched you for a year and wonder what you do for common sense. I can see you have at least average intelligence – use it.

  495. Rebeckah, I thought you were a Hoot!! No need to apologize as far as Im concerned 🙂

  496. The ultra-Orthodox survive in Israel and America in part because mainstream Jews subsidize them. This impulse among mainstream Jews is driven partly by Zionism and partly because they feel guilty for their own secularization. They support the Hasidim much as Christians might support monks.

    So I wonder if Utah turns a blind eye to the FLDS for the same reason—that the mainstream Utah LDS are ‘buying indulgences’ from their more observant neighbors.

    Does this sound familiar: “On top of that, at the rabbis’ direction the ultra-Orthodox do not study in universities. This keeps them blissfully ignorant of modern science, philosophy, and history – all things that could easily lead an ultra-Orthodox person to question his faith. It also keeps them away from secular members of the opposite sex.

    “In other words, kollel study combined with an enforced lack of secular knowledge serves as a buffer from modernity, the mortal enemy of ultra-Orthodoxy.” (Shmarya Rosenberg, ‘The Heretic’, October 2, 2008)

    In fact the Satmar Jews have strong conservative-isolationist tendencies that put them on a collision course with everyone else. There are, of course, hundreds of ultra-Orthodox splinter groups. The only thing they all agree on is the necessity of keeping all 613 mitzvot. Beyond that, each believes themselves to be the only pure keeper of the law—a way to maintain isolation and cohesion in one’s own little group. In that way they are very much like fundamentalist Mormons.

    Is this stupid, counterproductive and annoying? Yes. Is it illegal? No. And that is the difference in a nutshell.

  497. You know after the 1953 raid that many of the women and children were taken in by LDS? I read taht in one of the filings, where the judge was giving FLDS men a talk about underage marriage.
    Im sure because LDS tried to help the women and children in 1953, and were probably ridiculed because of it, that’s one reason LDS stood back and did NOTHING after the raid last year in Texas.

  498. Greetings,

    You are correct, in that those in power [notice I am not making a blanket accusation against all LDS members] in the LDS have ensured that the essential doctrine of polygamy remains protected, in [I believe] preparation for an all out decriminalization or legalization of the practice in the future.
    Although the Book of Mormon, in its very short history, has undergone 4,000 revisions, updates and deletions, the doctrine of “plural marriage” necessary for obtaining godhood for men, has never been removed, challenged or altered.
    Although many women who have left or escaped fundamentalist Mormon polygamy have sought their aid, the main stream LDS church has never offered help or aid to a single one of them when asked. Again, many LDS individuals have offered assistance, but the church itself has refused every single time, in many cases telling the concubine to “Go back home and be a good wife”. Their official excuse for this lack of assistance is “The church does not involve itself in personal matters”.
    Utah’s senior Senator Orrin Hatch (ranking Republican member of the Senate Judiciary Committee and for years its Chairman), a man who said in 2003 at a public gathering in southern Utah:
    “I’m not here to justify polygamy. All I can say is, I know people in Hildale who are polygamists who are very fine people. You come and show me the evidence of children being abused there and I’ll get involved. Bring me the evidence. [He said further,] I personally don’t believe in polygamy but I’m not going to judge others who feel differently.”

    Quoted from Most Wanted In Polygamy Coverup
    Monday, 15 May 2006, 4:50 pm
    Article: Suzan Mazur http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0605/S00244.htm

    This, along with the corruption of government there, leads us to believe the mainstream leadership of the LDS church is absolutely corrupt to the practice of polygamy, and has every intention of eventually reestablishing the practice within their general membership.

    They cannot on one hand say polygamy has nothing at all to with the LDS, and on the other promote and protect the practice. It is really that simple.

  499. Stamp,

    “However, because Jessop lives in Utah and the majority of FLDS Church members have moved to the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas, the de facto leader of most members in the FLDS Church is probably (indicted) Merril Jessop, the bishop at YFZ Ranch.”

    The residents of the YFZ are certainly nowhere near the majority of FLDS, estimated to be between 10,000-12,000 members.

    As for who the new “prophet” of the FLDS is, who knows? Our sources tell us that indeed WSJ has been written off as a “martyr”, and new leadership has emerged. The name we got was not the one mentioned here.

    I imagine, true to form, there will be a long internal power struggle, with more potential splits occuring within the group before the general public is ever made aware of who the “winner” is.

  500. Kendell Johnson ring a bell?

  501. Im betting John Wayman, he just basically gave YFZ ranch 900,000 dollars. Can ya buy being Prophet?

  502. It aint Willie the Thug.

    Boots, that story was copied form that website, It may, or may not be, the work of W Timpson Jessop.

    I’ve heard he was booted before the rescue, if that means anything.

    But to see this laid out on that website was indeed odd.. Kindo of like poistioning for poser from afar.

    http://conservativetradition.blog-giant.com/2009/05/28/william-e-jessop/

  503. The FLDS are running on remote control.
    Warren is still the profit and as long as Merril Jessop and Wendell Nielsen are around they will keep the dream alive.

  504. HAHAHAHAHAH! okey dokey

  505. Is this stupid, counterproductive and annoying? Yes. Is it illegal? No.

    If being counterproductive and annoying were illegal, Duane would be looking at a life sentence. (BTW Duane – I know you’re not stupid even though I wonder how you reach some of the conclusions you do.)

  506. duane isn’t stupid, but gullible

  507. Hey Anonymous, What happens when Merril and Wendell go to jail?

  508. Please go to Open Discussion 7:

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2009/07/03/open-discussion-7/

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