Open Discussion 5

Continued from Open Discussion 4

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on June 20, 2009.

466 Responses to “Open Discussion 5”

  1. When last we met, Deputy Dog had just posted this link to a story about the failure of polygamy to control men’s libidinous urges:

    http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1906000,00.html?iid=tsmodule

    Here’s another take on the same story:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/17/south-africa-rape-survey

    “We hear men saying, `If Jacob Zuma can have many wives, I can have many girlfriends.'” (Dean Peacock, co-director of the Sonke Gender Justice project)

  2. It should be fully evident to everyone that the flds will try to thwart any attempt to make them obey the basic laws that all US and Texas citizens are expected to obey. Their defiance is based on the arrogant attitude that they alone hold the keys to the highest level of heaven and everyone else is condmmed to a less glorious post mortal life. Therefore their breaking of the law is willful and they should be, nay, must be prosecuted for their actions. To do otherwise would be for the government to favor one group of people for another. In other words, selective prosecution based on religion.
    Their financial shenigans should be thoroughly vetted bu the appropriate state and federal agencies.

  3. They keep on shifting that pea beneath the walnut shells. It has worked for them, so far.

    So far.

  4. Hugh McBryde invited me to visit his blog to learn his theology. I make a practice of only visiting blogs whose security is verified, since I’m very protective of this hunk of metal and plastic in my lap.

    Anyways, if you can’t explain your theology in a few words, it is probably too complex to be true.

    Here’s mine:

    Credo in unum Deum,
    Patrem omnipoténtem,
    Factórem cæli et terræ,
    Visibílium ómnium et invisibílium.
    Et in unum Dóminum Iesum Christum,
    Fílium Dei Unigénitum,
    Et ex Patre natum ante ómnia sæcula.
    Deum de Deo, lumen de lúmine, Deum verum de Deo vero,
    Génitum, non factum, consubstantiálem Patri:
    Per quem ómnia facta sunt.
    Qui propter nos hómines et propter nostram salútem
    Descéndit de cælis.
    Et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto
    Ex María Vírgine, et homo factus est.
    Crucifíxus étiam pro nobis sub Póntio Piláto;
    Passus, et sepúltus est,
    Et resurréxit tértia die, secúndum Scriptúras,
    Et ascéndit in cælum, sedet ad déxteram Patris.
    Et íterum ventúrus est cum glória,
    Iudicáre vivos et mórtuos,
    Cuius regni non erit finis.
    Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dóminum et vivificántem:
    Qui ex Patre Filióque procédit.
    Qui cum Patre et Fílio simul adorátur et conglorificátur:
    Qui locútus est per prophétas.
    Et unam, sanctam, cathólicam et apostólicam Ecclésiam.
    Confíteor unum baptísma in remissiónem peccatorum.
    Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum,
    Et vitam ventúri sæculi.

  5. Ale wife, great post. And it shows one more way in which the FLDS are not acting as Christians.

    Paul spelled out our responsibility toward civil authority in no uncertain terms in Romans 13:1-7. So a Christian must submit to civil authority in the matter of underage marriage, polygamy, paying taxes, paying mandated wages, and collecting welfare—it doesn’t matter if he thinks the law is right or not.

  6. Hmmm, I wonder what it says when you’re theology is expressed in a language that’s been dead for a thousand years?

  7. Lawyers keep it alive Ron! ha ha

  8. It says I have high expectations of my readers. Wanna read it in Greek instead? That doesn’t have the “filióque” in the Holy Spirit phrase, the absence of which was one of the excuses for the Great Schism of 1054.

  9. One thing the Great Schism wasn’t concerned with was whether there will be wine or beer in heaven.

  10. Ron seems GFNY has a very Nice Seen Creed to me. 80)

  11. I agree that one’s beliefs should be fairly simple to explain. Here’s mine.

    1. I believe in Nature’s God based on Reason, Experience, and Observation of Nature.

    2. Nature’s God is incomprehensible to Man.

    3. Man has the ability, through the gift of Reason, to develop moral and ethical principles and can, by Reason, conduct themselves in a moral manner.

    4. Man has the individual ability to experience Nature’s God and to determine how to best honor him.

    5. All Men are created equal.

    6. It is Mankind’s purpose to use Reason to act in such a way as to secure happiness and contentment.

    7. Reason is the gift of Nature’s God to Men, and Men should use Reason to determine what is practical.

    8. Men should respect the views of others, so long as those views do not harm others, or infringe on their rights, including the rights of children.

  12. I operate on these 10 commandments:

    1. Have no gods.
    2. Don’t worship stuff.
    3. Be polite.
    4. Take a day off once in a while.
    5. Be nice to folks.
    6. Don’t kill people.
    7. Don’t cheat on your significant other.
    8. Don’t steal stuff.
    9. Don’t lie about stuff.
    10. Don’t be greedy.

    My favorite though is the Santa Claus is Coming to Town Philosophy:

    Just be good for goodness sake.

  13. Y’all have made it an Uplifting Morning. I even bathed the dog and trimmed her nails so right now she’s not pretending to be my very best friend but that will pass.

  14. I dont go too much by creeds. Ive never been one to recite the different creeds or want to make my own. Following what Jesus had to say when questioned by the Pharisees (no offense, Hugh : )
    seems right to me.

    36 Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?

    37 Jesus replied: ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’

    38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

    39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’

    40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.
    (Matthew 22)

  15. I believe in God the creator.
    I also believe he already know every thought or action we will ever take before we ever take it.

    I also believe and most importantly, God knows each person’s heart.

    I don’t believe there is ONE person on the earth that is Good, Rigtheous, or necessarily Godly.

    I don’t believe you can work your way to that place in God’s heart.

    The word says, Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling daily. (Which I believe to mean with humility and honor to God)

    I don’t believe anyone can follow the law, had they been able to, there would of been no need for the Christ to shed his blood for those who believe. It’s not water, it’s not works, it’s not how good you are, it by grace we are given salvation.

    Christ told his disciples , to get rid of everything they owned, to pick up a sword and follow him. (The sword wasn’t a saber, but his Word)

    My only creed is this. Lord help me be the person , you want me to be, and enable me to do your will , not mine.

  16. A gift he gave me, was to do what I could physically, mentally do to protect, watchover children who could not do it for themselves. And my thorn is knowing I can’t protect every child, but if God can enable me to protect or help just “One” I am blessed.

  17. Deputydog, I hear your heart on this and respect it very much.

  18. Linda, did you happen to read my comments to you on Discussion 4? Would love to hear your thoughts – about your friend whose daughter was molested by her husband. Thanks.

  19. K.Wright, Yes I did and should have answered already.

    You wrote:
    “Linda, as a fellow Baptist-daughter of an ordained minister of the faith, I have some questions for you about your friend. If your friend hadn’t believed her 4 year old daughter, or worse, told her to keep sweet and quiet because fathers had been doing this for hundreds, thousands of years and she needed to get over it, how would you then feel? Would you still feel such charity in your heart and wonder how they were doing (in the same way you do for the flds) when you saw them heading to church as a family? I mean, what if she hadn’t faced the truth, confronted, reported and divorced the abuser of her daughter, would you not feel some sense of rage on behalf of the child, an urgent demand for justice? Or would you just admire your friend for her sweet demeanor and her love of family, evidenced by her keeping the family together? Linda, even Jesus could find righteous anger over children and desecration of the temple. Try, Linda, try to see what we are seeing.”

    I did feel rage for the child even as my friend confronted, had her husband arrested, and saw him prosecuted. How can we feel other than outrage for a child being abused? I also admired her for not cutting off all contact from him and trying to encourage him as an individual while he was in jail. Yet she did divorce him. She hated what he did and has assured that he will never see his daughter until she is an adult and only if she requests it herself.

    On the other hand, I have seen quite opposite and foolish reactions to the same kind of thing. In my own family there was a case of child molestation by a teenager to a small child. It was denied, hushed up and no one did anything about it. That child today is an adult who wears a tough exterior and has issues with trust. Ignoring abuse is not the answer.

    But, I dont know that the same scenario applies to all the parents of the FLDS. Again, I dont like to generalize with any group. I just cannot see those folks deliberately sending their daughters to into abusive situations nor can I see them saying that this is what fathers have been doing for generations and they just have to take it and get over it. I have read every book I know of concerning the FLDS. Those books make the leadership look very bad. I look forward to reading something written by someone inside the group now.

    I hope you have enjoyed being a PK. That is not always an easy role. Im glad our children can still celebrate Fathers Day and dont blame their dad for making them live in glass houses. : )

  20. Linda – I apologize for joining the discussion late and these may be things you’ve already answered:

    do you know or have you spent time with any families currently in the FLDS? Eldorado or Short Creek?

    Do you know or have you spent time with any ex-FLDS members? In particular do you know or have you spent time with Carolyn Jessop, Elissa Wall, Flora Jessop, Brent Jeffs, Dan Fischer, Rebecca Musser, Isaac Wyler, Richard Holm, Ross Chatwin, Ben Bistline or Jethro Barlow?

    In speaking of child abuse, do you include marriages between 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 year old girls to men in their 40’s and 50’s? Does it matter that the couplings are decided by revelation, and the teen girls may not know their betrothed prior to the “wedding ceremony”?

  21. I like the Santa Claus creed…thanks Ron.

    BTW – the 10 commandments of the old covenant are included within the two great commandments of the new covenant. The former is stated in terms of prohibition, the latter stated as an affirmative instruction. Do Not vs. Do. The moral imperative all comes down to: be kind and be generous and do no harm to others . Pretty universally accepted inmainstream, civilized societies.

  22. FLDS Texas, you omit the fact that these marriages are almost always fraudulent – in that they are not legal and do not convey property rights or other protections Linda Lamb and other wives enjoy (take for granted even).

  23. I had a very sad thought today, Ron. Although I’m sure there’s beer in heaven, there is none in hell. It would boil away. See Luke 16:24, where the rich man is complaining about his afterlife accommodations: “So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’”

  24. Fraudulent is what it is. It is not only those wives, the mothers of their children. Those FLDS males don’t want their children to have support from them if the mothers escape. Look what Merril Jessop is doing to keep his children from having access to financial support, that durdy bathtub. There are others who can be named.

  25. Nothing wrong with creeds or catechisms, as long as they are true. They originated in a world where people weren’t literate and Bibles were hand-copied and beyond price. In the absence of Scripture, hedge priests could foist all kinds of heresy on illiterates, and did. The creeds were a universal statement of what everyone believed to be true, intended to unite, rather than divide, Christendom.

    When believers recite the Apostles’ Creed, they are professing their faith in a form that goes back to the fourth century CE. To me that’s wonderful and amazing.

    And I joke about the Filióque Controversy causing the Great Schism, but everyone really knows it was just a handy excuse for a political war.

  26. Pretty universally accepted in mainstream, civilized societies

    FLDS Texas, you’ve hit on my sticking point. Human societies existed and thrived long, long before this thing called Judeo-Christian ethics ever came into existence.

    There is scientific evidence that what makes a sociopath is the inability to perceive the pain of others. I rather suspect that the golden rule is an evolved biological rule rather than a rule from some “God.”

  27. It is so true, Granny. Civil disobedience starts with the understanding that you will face the consequences. When you break the law hoping to get away with it, you’re a criminal, pure and simple. And every polygamous ‘marriage’ among the FLDS is bigamy and is illegal.

    A while ago, there was a post quoting a Muslim scholar who said that Muslims are required to obey the law, and the law here prohibits polygamy. That hews very closely to Paul’s statement in Romans 13 that Christians are to obey those in authority.

  28. Linda

    “I just cannot see those folks deliberately sending their daughters to into abusive situations”

    Some have attempted to keep their underage children from the Prophets marriage assignments – they are booted out – you arent aware of this?

    ” nor can I see them saying that this is what fathers have been doing for generations and they just have to take it and get over it.”

    Well YEEEAAHHH! Since JS time. Let me ask, have you studied how he took his wives?

    When they were still wives of other men? Again, I dont think you’ve done your homework.

    Thats why I asked if you saw those heinous pics of Warren frenching his 12 yr old brides. There is no escaping the evil that is rampant even at the top of the cult.

  29. Ron, we actually don’t know how old Jewish culture is, or what its source documents are. Certainly the account of the Flood corresponds with the Akkadian deluge stories, making it a record of events about 4000 years ago. We can only guess about when it was redacted and written down, and there’s a lot of debate about that.

    That it was written in Hebrew is interesting in itself. There are 3000-year-old samples of Hebrew writing. That makes it roughly contemporary with the beginning of written Chinese. I believe they are the only two ancient writing systems still in use.

  30. Or Stamp if it is a female that tries to keep her daughters from underage Prophet ordered marriages are sent to “houses of hiding” forced to listen to “sermons” from the prophet for 16 hours a day never allowed to leave the inside of the house until they “repent” of their disobedience. Some are separated from their other children and their other children given to other “mothers” and told their “real” mother no longer exists. Yes great “family” values in this group.

  31. LadySadie: Just because you can’t reveal your sources, the foolish among us say it isn’t so. Some day, all the girls will be safe, you will be able to tell the whole story, and I’ll happily join you in watching the AAS eat crow.

  32. Warren in his dictations threatens one teen bride with the house of hiding and hard work, and also for good measure threatens her with her parents exing if she doesnt perform her “wifely duties with a cheerful heart”

    Perhaps Linda didnt read those chilling and creepy dictations, Dont we have them on this site?

  33. Greetings

    I suppose you could argue over who first came up with the “golden rule;” however, corollaries appear in Hinduism, Jainism, Confucianism, Buddhism, Taoism, and Sikhism. So, it seems to be a fairly well accepted rule of civilization.

  34. I guess I think that going on all sorts of blogs telling people how much you admire the FLDS is kind of like Tom Cruise jumping up and down on the furniture while trashing psychiatry. Normal people listen to him and say, “Well, he is clearly nuts himself, so who cares?” But the mentally ill can find something in his arguments which will cause great harm.

    Likewise, you might think your billing and cooing over the FLDS is good, but if you encourage bad behavior, you’re actually hurting them.

  35. No argument there, Ron, except for the reason—I think we all have an impulse pulling us toward God and the truth.

    We also like to exaggerate how big the world was to the ancients. They really were talking with each other. Some day when I am bored (after the Dirty Dozen go to jail, perhaps) I am going to write my opus on when such universal concepts entered the major human cultures.

    By the way, if you had J. Smith’s Guide to Writing Scripture, you’d gussy up those commandments of yours with some good Elizabethanisms.

  36. telling people how much you admire the FLDS

    I’ve always wondered about this dynamic. What is it really that folks “admire” about the FLDS? The false piety? The anachronistic sort of lost in time prairie self reliance? The fact that we’re taught that we should be “tolerant” of others’ religious beliefs?

    It seems to me that the FLDS exemplify the worst of religion gone bad. Convince those 14 year old girls that some sky Daddy wants them to marry your old saggy butt. Say that you’re not part of a greater society by saying that some God has “chosen” you.

    I don’t get it. Maybe Duane can enlighten me.

  37. Well, I kind of admire their ability to braid hair. And their vegetable gardens. But other than that, I can’t think of a darned thing, Ron. And I can braid and garden, so those things don’t cut much mustard with me.

    (I started writing a list of all the things I don’t admire, like their racial attitudes, and their misogyny, and their cheating their sons and pimping their daughters, and that hideous temple, and I got so depressed I had to quit.)

  38. It’s called opinions Ron,, we all have them and some stink! But, that’s what freedom gives us,,,to even have stinky opinions. To me it’s only logical to think most parent’s in the world really do love and protect their children, or if something dreadful happens to a child , they feel confident enough to tell their parents. Or parent’s allow thier children freedom of expression in their thoughts. That when a child says, No, or something doesn’t feel right, they have a parent to confide.
    But, that’s logical and I know ALL parent’s aren’t good parents, some parent’s from everything Ive read in FLDS love their Religious oddities more than they love their children.

    Somewhere I read from an xflds member, that after leaving Flds, they realized years later, you love a child unconditionally, which is unheard of within FLDS confines. It isn’t taught, because you have to be willing to let go of your child, if the Prophet says to, either in birth , or being sent off, or in marriage, and you have to be willing to do that without hesitation.

  39. you love a child unconditionally, which is unheard of within FLDS confines. It isn’t taught, because you have to be willing to let go of your child, if the Prophet says to, either in birth , or being sent off, or in marriage, and you have to be willing to do that without hesitation

    I agree. From what I’ve read of FLDS teachings they try to override the natural biological urges of the mother. Warren’s teaching all seem to say that the mother’s only job is to obey and to populate this mythical “priesthood” that will rule some afterlife.

    There is always the “Catch-22” for the mother, protect your child, or screw yourself for eternity.

  40. FLDS TEXAS, I have never met any of the members. I have read all I could that they have written and tried to watch all the videos where any of them have been interviewed. Im really not sure why this group as been so heavy on my heart.

    I dont think I am blind to what their prophet has done. I read all the dictations and it was shocking. I just dont think all of them are as he is. Im quite sure some of them are humble, quiet and try to be godly people. Anything that is done that is breaking the law or being deceitful cannot be right. Those things have to be dealt with. At least they do in my mind.

  41. Linda

    For decades they have been abusing women and children. These acts are from the leadership down.

    Of course there are inbnocent women and children. But many women give their 12 yr old daughters away on the Prophets whim, this is the kind of thing they share in the crimes with.

    For these type of actions the men are being tried, the women, not yet. Perhaps soon.

    No woman should ever give her child up to a molester. She should leave.

  42. Linda, any FLDS “faithful” has to be able to follow and obey Warren Steed Jeffs unconditionally. Every adult at YFZ raunch was hand picked by Warren Steed Jeffs himself. They were the most faithful and obeidient to Warren Steed Jeffs and his dictates. Everyone at YFZ was exactly as Warren Steed Jeffs or they were not allowed there. Yes I believe there are current members in Short Creek that question the dictates of Warren Jeffs but as long as they consider themselves “faithful” members of the FLDS religion they MUST

  43. obey anything Warren Jeffs says. Every adult that was residing at YFZ raunch is just as guilty of the rape of the 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 year old girls as the actual rapist, they knew of, condoned, did nothing to stop the RAPES, and NEVER once reported the rapes. THERE IS NOT ONE ADULT LIVING AT YFZ THAT IS NOT GUILTY OF RAPE.

  44. Linda, you didn’t tell us what you would think of your friend if she hadn’t protected her daughter and turned her husband over to law enforcement. This is critical because it is what so many of these flds women are guilty of – that you seem to so admire.

  45. Many of the young people both girls and boys, who ran from Flds, even after they got help from the public, wouldn’t press charges, because it was “their parents” who allowed it to happen, and even though they were considered “Apostates” and communication with parents was cut off,, these kids, still “loved” their parents, and didn’t want them getting into trouble.

    The kids wanted to protect the parents, yet their own parents refused to protect them1

  46. What is wrong with that picture?

  47. It broke my heart when I read the letter from Kathy Jo Nicolson to her sister,and the Ugly letter she got back from her sister.
    Im sure it broke Kathy’s heart to!

  48. And that is the reason ALL the children were removed. Fear of bad PR kneejerked CPS into returning them – back into that environment of molestation and abuse.

    Thankdfully the Dirty Dozen are going to trial soon and if they follow Warrens path, will be looking at spending their lives in prison.

    Yes, FOR MOLESTING CHILDREN! EACH OTHERS CHILDREN!

  49. Interesting article on Brooke’s blog about the UEP situation. Brooke’s conclusion is the flds have not followed the guidelines she set for the stand down period and also that Wisan’s did not violate those guidelines by selling the cows. Brooke’s conclusion is:

    “Based on Lindberg’s previous comments and orders, the next move in the heifer saga may very well be a hearing on Berry Knoll.”

  50. Yet Again, the flds have taken careful aim at the situation and shot themselves in the foot. The attorneys for the various UEP factions are going to reap some big payments, while the trust assets are depleted to make those payments. Robin Hood in reverse, take from the poor apostates and flds short creekers and give to lawyers. This scheme engineered and brought forth by the flds leadership.

  51. chemist

    Is there anything the FLDS can do that is more detrimental to their cause?

    “Self destructive immature behavior” seems to be the way they operate – since Warren stole the keys!

  52. stamp: I think they have all of the bases covered for self destruction. It is interesting to read Brooke’s blog article titled paragraph 35, and to compare it to R. Walsh’s article under polygamy news in the SLT. The one about Wisans falling off his Steed. I suspect the flds are not pleased with Brooke for her P35 article.

  53. Linda

    “Alvin Harker bas tied himself to Mark
    Copeland. I got the word by my phone answerer
    earlier¡ in the week het Mark Copeland called and
    left a message ard said in great anger and despoir
    that now he found out “another” daughtet hæd been
    abused by someone,

    That was his message, He
    was going through it again. The Lord has told me
    Mark Copeland still has not rcpented fully. Oh,
    that these men would repent and humble
    themselves.”

    ===================

    Here you see an xFLDS calling Warren to complain about his daughters abuse – Warren is only concerned about how the man is not submitting to him and saying HEY THATS COOL! THANKS FOR LETTING MY DAUGHTER BE YOUR pimped out SLAVE!

    https://texasflds.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/jessop-22.pdf

  54. Hugh ego on D4:

    “Submitted on 2009/06/21 at 7:40pm

    Stamp, you seem to adore me. “Greetings from NY” has a query about why I used the name Pharisee.”

    ===================

    I pity you Hugh, your family must think you are sick. At least, if you are brave enough to copy your comments here to the wife and daughters.

    You letting the girls marry at 12? Youre wife want you to assign them to some local HOMEY?

    You make me laugh!

  55. If you try to personalize some of the flds practices it makes forming an opinion easier.
    For example, I have some grand daughters ranging from age 11 to age 16. When I try to imagine these girls that I know and love being married to some 50 year old man and bearing children at 15 and 16, it really is disgusting. Also, when I consider the dreams they have of higher education, travel and being a wife and mother to a man of their choosing when they are older, being dashed by a forced marriage on a fake prophet’s whim I become enraged that these practices go on and are supported by some posters here.

  56. Stamp, that quote about Mark Copeland pretty much says it all, doesn’t it? And it implies that the men of the FLDS who tried to do the right thing by their daughters have been apostatized. And we already know that the women who tried to do the right thing by their daughters were sent to houses of hiding and ‘reeducated (a womb being more useful than a sperm donor in this dystopia).

    I keep going back to Elissa Wall. Her mom not only acquiesced to her ‘marriage’, but didn’t help her daughter when it was clear Wall was sinking into almost-suicidal depression.

    I believe Sharon Steed loves Elissa. But does that absolve her of responsibility? Not a chance—in fact, it makes it worse.

  57. I wish Hugh and Duane would take their “words of wisdom” and “conversational skills” (however limited they may be) and tell the FLDS if you want all of us to look at you individually and not collectively, then a good start would be to allow Ruby to go home with Flora WITH all of her children.

    Duane posted a comment where he stated an FLDS woman thanked him for standing up for them and also insisted they are not treated as cattle? Really?

    Where’s Ruby? If she isn’t cattle, why can’t she leave? Why must she be escorted everywhere? Why must she stay in a marriage she hates and live a life she finds no fulfillment in?

    Is she at the YFZ Ranch? Why all the comments that they can leave anytime they want? They say it over and over in the interviews.

    If she isn’t at the ranch in Texas and is still in the “twin towns” again I ask, why can’t she leave with her children if she desires too?

    Every comment they make, every excuse they give, every woman they put on the tv ONLY enforces my belief that they are captive women, made to submit and at the whim of someone I wouldn’t trust to buy me a coke.

    You don’t want us to call you cattle? or insinuate your treated as cattle? Then stand up for yourselves and say enough is enough.

    That is my challenge to the women in FLDS.

  58. Wow, Mississippigirl, you go, hon!! Just wish we could vote your post “up” a few hundred times.

  59. Likewise from me, mississippigirl.

  60. 🙂 thank you k. wright and gfny.

    If it hadn’t been for all of ya’ll, and the wonderful insightful posts that I am constantly agreeing with, laughing with & crying over, I might never had gotten involved.

    All of you make my day because you care so much. And so do I.

  61. ok, so I have a question. It may be naive, but I still want to ask.

    If Ruby is 22 years old now, why can’t we just go to the twin towns and get her? Since I don’t recognize any authority they seem to have over the women there, why wouldn’t she be allowed to leave if we (flora or anyone flora trusts) were there to take her?

    I guess my question is “is the main problem- that we don’t know exactly where she is? or “she would not be allowed to leave if we did go?

  62. Yes, the posts from others has helped me a great deal. That post by Hugh about it not being henious to marry girls as young as 12 or 13 made my blood boil.
    Wonder if Hugh has daughters or grand daughters of that age. If so, does he think it it OK for them to marry some 50-60 year old guy and bear children at 14 or 15. Probably not, but he thinks its OK for other girls. Sounds hypocrital to me or just some lazy theorizing. Thewre are real people involved in this, real girls. We need to stand up for them, their own parents won’t or if they do they are licked out. This is outrageous.

  63. Author Jeff Van Vonderen has written on several topics of radical Christian groups that hold to identifiable traits that they all hold in common. In his book, co-authored with David Johnson, called,”The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse” he enumerates seven characteristics which embraces the FLDS Church. He asserts that all spiritually abuse systems hold these seven traits in common, they are:
    1.)Power Posturing – Leader(s) focus alot of teachings and time on establishing their personal authority and 100% allegiance. The FLDS sect term for this tenet is ‘One Man Rule’ and the “Principle of Oneness”.

    2.) Performance Preoccupation – Places a question on the believer to prove a heightened loyalty, unquestioned adherence and earned worthiness by all thoughts, actions and deeds. The FLDS teaching in the belief of the “Keeping Sweet” principle, places the burden upon the believer to perform.

    3.) Unspoken Rules – These are verbal charges or sins that the believer is informed of having committed after they have been broken, placing the believers status within the group in jeopardy or reason for rejecting them immediately. Warren Jeff’s dictations speak of messages being sent to believers sending them into ‘worshipping from afar’ without explanation or knowing the full reasons why they are now apostates.

    4.) Lack of Balance – Extreme teachings of Scripture, covert practices or exclusive revelations by prophecy made known to only the radical group. The FLDS Church removed to the YFZ Ranch as a result of such a revelation and limited believers were allowed to know of the prophecy.

    5.) Paranoia – Non-believers will enact an EVIL Conspiracy, trusted believers will fall and become apostates and a purge of balking believers must be manifested to purify the group. The YFZ Ranch became a select set of “Templebuilders” who were allowed access to the ‘Land of Refuge’.

    6.) Misplaced Loyalty – Leader(s) demand greater allegiance, blind discipleship and extreme loyalty of the new chosen believers to the latest prophecy. YFZ Ranch residents are a select group of “Templebuilders” singled out for the special WORK and heightened honor to serve.

    7.) Secretive – The inner circle of more blest bretheren become a potent nucleus of believers within the radical group and make more extreme sacrifices, deeds of devotion and adherence to duty than the rest of the lesser believers. Short Creek believers were partly excluded to the full reasoning or revelation behind the YFZ Ranch Exodus, beyond the Leadership just initiating the move and believers continuing to “Keep Sweet”.

    This written book on spiritual abuse was first published in 2003 and latest reprintings are from 2005. The parallels to the FLDS Church’s actions, the YFZ Ranch and ongoing saga are quite haunting and accurate.

  64. Hi all,

    This note is for Boots & Flora, if they are checking in.

    I had intended to go to the book signing, downtown Austin, this evening, but have just received a phone call that my husband’s much beloved Grandmother passed away today.

    Hubby is a quiet man, but is clearly moved and distressed — I’m going to “just be present” for him this evening.

    So ~~ if I order the book online, can I still get it signed? 🙂

    All the best and all success to both of you!

  65. Good grief, seems like the FLDS tore those pages out of the book so they could memorize them!

    I would hope that the women at the ranch and where-ever else Warren has them, read our posts and THINK about why we are all so upset.

    Just how far are you willing to let the “men” run things. You think Warren WANTS to be in that cell? Think Merrill’s looking forward to it?
    Think your relatives you left behind don’t feel betrayed?
    Where is all that family love you speak of ? you know, the support in having sister wives and a ‘wonderful loving man” to make all your decisions?

    And again why in the world does not ONE WOMAN FROM THE GROUP come forward and help get Ruby out? Just one, to show they are able to make their decisions and are not treated as cattle?

  66. knock knock, Duane , you there? Hugh, you there? Geez, no one wants to play today.

    Guess we’re asking the HARD questions they CAN’T answer.

  67. On the Trib boards, Blackbird called Wee Willie Jessop “the new ayatollah of Short Creek.” Is that not (sadly) perfect?

  68. They have freedom in their grasp, and they choose Wee Willie. Amazing.

    If that’s the best they have, then we should make real progress on dismantling the cult.

  69. Yup, Freedom at their grasp, but these people refuse to grasp it!

  70. MG

    “They have freedom in their grasp, and they choose Wee Willie. Amazing.

    If that’s the best they have, then we should make real progress on dismantling the cult.”

    ===

    I had read somewhere that Willie is just Warrens water boy. For instance, up at the negotiations, Neilson and some others huddled for the “big boy” decisions while Willie waited patiently for instructions.

    And get this – I believe every decision is made to be one that Warren would approve. In other words, he is still prophet and they still think they have to please him.

  71. Im sure your right Stamp! Merril goes to get instructions from warren on a regular basis.

  72. It seems that if Shurtleffs plan was approved, Warren would have the Hostages back in his grasp.

    After another flurry of exings and other assorted crimes, we could start this crap all over again.

  73. I hope it isn’t approved, since Arizona and Wisan and xflds don’t agree with the proposal.

  74. A whole lot of people don’t agree with it. Anybody with a conscience, for example.

  75. “If Ruby is 22 years old now, why can’t we just go to the twin towns and get her?”

    Go for it Ms girl, according to Brooks blog a few years ago:

    “Ruby Jessop Barlow, the younger sister of anti-polygamy activist Flora Jessop. Flora Jessop tried to “rescue” Ruby a few years, claiming she was being kept in the FLDS community against her will. Ruby met with investigators and refuted that. Of note: Ruby apparently was married on the same day as Jane Doe — April 23, 2001”

    http://166.70.44.68/blogs/plurallife/2007/09/the-witness-list/

    Ruby refuted Flora’s version of events.

    I’m been busy lately, but as ususal, the posts here are just hysterical speculation and more tripe. The FLDS people can speak for themselves, I doubt they appreciate your paranoid version of events that have taken place so far. This stupid talk of “hostages”…yeah that is why they are trying their damndeds to get rid of Wisan. Just a bunch of nosy nannies trying to dictate to others their personal value system. So sad!

    Ok, goodnight,

  76. duane

    You still dont understand the hold they have on people!

  77. Stamp

    Duane also ignores the dictations where they talk about sending women to remote locations and putting them in mental institutions.

  78. “duane

    You still dont understand.”

    stamp, just put a period after understand when talking about duane.

  79. I take duane’s posting that he was too busy yesterday must mean he missed Flora’s book signing at 7:00pm in Book People store in Austin. Duh duane you seem to always have time to run your mouth on this blog but not enough time to do it in person with someone in real life, too sad.

    Flora just too much for you to deal with duane?

  80. LMAO

    duane gets his chance to meet a REAL flds woman and guess what?

    He suddenly finds himself in a headlock – from his wife!

    DOH!

  81. Well, I can see why – Flora already handed him his ass on D4 here, why risk having her hand it to him in real life?

    Much easier for duane to hide behind his moniter.

  82. And to think we arrived early, stayed late, and still Duane was a NO SHOW. Either that or he was to afraid of us to come up and say HI. Funny thing about how I am always willing to face them but they are never willing to face me. HUMMMMM!

  83. Maybe Duane’s wifey made him get off the internet!! Bet she wears the pants in his house!!LOL

  84. Maybe Duane’s wifey made him get off the internet!! Bet she wears the pants in his house! He comes here to Vent his frustrations. and fantasizes about be a Patriarchial MAN? lol

  85. Flora, he probably hid behind a book shelf watching, LOL

  86. You don’t want us to call you cattle? or insinuate your treated as cattle? Then stand up for yourselves and say enough is enough.

    That is my challenge to the women in FLDS.
    ==================================================
    So your challenge to them is to make only the choices you approve of?

  87. As far as I can tell MOST of them are better watchers than doers. My next book is going to be small, smaller and littlest Priesthood. (A tiny tale of the twin towns told by the twisted twosome in Texas)

  88. Hugh seems to be fascinated with Iran at the moment, and pretty pictures of brave young Islamic lasses. Just our luck!

  89. Flora said this on June 23, 2009 at 3:50 PM
    And to think we arrived early, stayed late, and still Duane was a NO SHOW. Either that or he was to afraid of us to come up and say HI. Funny thing about how I am always willing to face them but they are never willing to face me. HUMMMMM!

    REPLY: “Fools rush in where angels fear to tread”.

  90. onthestreet , I have Two words for you!! GO AWAY!!!

  91. You mean like “Far Far Away On Judea’s Plain”? Ahh, the path the Jesus walked.

  92. …the path THAT Jesus walked. You wish me the very best, I see.

  93. No, I mean like the hole you crawled out of!

  94. Street

    Well thanks for keeping it civil. Say whats your major right now?

  95. PS Your post that angels would fear to tread toward Flora was funny!

    Whats Warrens excuse? Guess he had a hot line to the red phone.

  96. I didn’t show up, Sorry, I thought about it but decided not to “out” myself.

  97. LOL duane,, Like flora would have known who you were!

  98. Duane, if Wee Willie showed up in my town, I’d go watch him attempt to speak. The free exchange of ideas is liberating.

    (My guess is that I’d win.)

  99. Betty,

    I’ve chosen to not comment of Flora’s tour of distortion. So far.

  100. Must be a full moon – McBryde and Street are out at the same time.

  101. Ron,

    You’re either a dishonest lawyer, or not a very good one so in case you never got the message before, that I don’t care what you think, please get that message now. I don’t know who “Street” is, by the way, and don’t read his posts.

    That could be my loss. Who knows? You certainly wouldn’t.

  102. wow. someone struck a nerve. how could you possibly know what kind of lawyer ron is?

  103. OK Ron we hear that ‘Watching’ got tossed off of Brooke’s blog owing to complaints from two political opponents to his views and lampooning. We are thinking of forming a Boston Tea Party on the Plural Life with a boycott. We’ll keep you current to our decision and you’re welcome to join in if we take any action. I think I hear a fife and drum.

  104. Lousy is as Lousy does K. I’m doing him a courtesy to respect his claim that he IS a lawyer and that he practice law in the area he claims to.

    As for hitting a nerve, I deeply despise anyone who uses the phrase “tin foil hat” the way Ron does, for reasons I have gone into. The insult that he supposes he hurls at the “nuttier” supporters of the FLDS (which seem to be anyone who supports them) is actually not an insult of them, it is an insult to schizophrenics and a pejorative.

  105. So, Hugh, it’s OK for you to call me stupid and/or ignorant repeatedly, but if Ron calls you crazy it’s right out? Thanks for letting us know the rules of Calvin Ball.

  106. Betty: Hugh seems to me to be a pompous, arrogant burro. I really don’t know about his tin hat, however his arrogance and huge ego means that in his mind he is always correct and smart. Therefore anyone whose opinion differs from his is stupid, ignorant, etc.

  107. Oh Hugh, you wound me man. BTW, very nice Christian behavior, Mr. Pious Man.

  108. Hey Hugh, has it dawned on you that you are the only person on planet earth that draws a connection between “tin foil hat” and mental health issues.

    Believing that Mindy Montford got arrested by the Austin PD for pubic intoxication because LE are targeting FLDS attorneys is a textbook example of “tin foil hat” thinking. Now whether that’s some sign that you have mental health issues is only a question you can answer.

  109. Well, actually, Wikipedia draws a connection between ‘tin foil hat’ and clinical paranoia, but mainly it is related to conspiracy theories. But I’m with you on the multi-state PI conspiracy – that’s nuttier than I would have guessed. The very idea that there is enough to debate that Texas Blues has three posts on it just boggles my mind.

  110. Baptists. air-conditioned buses. Baptists.

  111. Betty – now you got me thinking. Does anyone else see “tin foil hat” as Hugh claims “pejorative?”

  112. i think wikipedia has it right and so does ron. those who think that everyone is out to get anyone and anything associated with the flds are into conspiracy and therefore quailfy for the tin foil hat.

  113. “The concept of wearing a tin foil hat for protection from such threats ( influences as electromagnetic fields, or against mind control and/or mind reading.)has become a popular stereotype and term of derision; the phrase serves as a byword for paranoia and is associated with conspiracy theorists.

    In Japan, there is a religious cult, Pana Wave, based entirely on the conspiracy theory of electromagnetic fields. They dress in white clothes and wear specially made tin foil hats.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil_hat

    Whaddya know – another cult actually wears them too!

  114. LMAO

    OHHHHH!!!!!!

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/pana_wave/pana_wave50.html

  115. “Clinical.” Hmmm. Compare that to “Clinical Depression.” What’s being said? What is being said, is that it is an ILLNESS. Trying to drag the discussion to “paranoia” when the word “clinical” is attached to it as a phrase tells you that it’s part of a disease description.

    Tell me Betty, what is “paranoia” generally associated with in mental illness? Usually Schizophrenia, as a primary symptom. You seem to be congratulating yourselves on irritating me with this.

    You’re right, it irritates me.

    You seem to think I take in personally.

    I don’t.

    That’s why I call it a pejorative. I’m sick of bigots who parade around sincerely believing they aren’t bigots, who are so bigoted to the core that they can’t see it.

    There’s truly little hope of aiding you in redemption from such hatred. You clearly think you’re better than other people, else why would you associate me with the truly handicapped in an attempt to belittle and insult me?

    Instead, you reveal something about yourselves, and not about me. You think I am “hurt” be being compared to the unfortunate whose condition is beyond their control. You think I can enter a similar state by choice.

    People who wear tin foil hats are mentally ill. You might as well call me “mongoloid” or some other epithet. The down’s syndrome person is no less a human being because you wish to make me feel little by calling me such a name, neither is the schizophrenic less of a human being because you call FLDS supporters people who wear “Tin Foil Hats.” But YOU, are an unannealed BIGOT. And that makes my skin crawl, just to be around you.

  116. Betcha Hugh follows Alex Jones of the infamous “infor wars” LOLLOLOLOL!!!!
    Betty is correct,,, conspiracy nutbars, are everywhere!
    Now hugh, if someone assaults your tin foil hat sexually, Let Us know, we will raise HOLY hell with whoever did that!!!

    Your an ignorant asshole Hugh! Hows that for a label?

  117. P.S. Hugh, I would have to say, Any Down syndrome child or any mentally challenged person has more sense than you do.. In fact they are geniuses compared to you.

  118. Deputy, I like it better since it’s only meant to insult me.

    By the way, I’ve had surgery to make it perfect…..

  119. Go for it Ms girl, according to Brooks blog a few years ago:

    “Ruby Jessop Barlow, the younger sister of anti-polygamy activist Flora Jessop. Flora Jessop tried to “rescue” Ruby a few years, claiming she was being kept in the FLDS community against her will. Ruby met with investigators and refuted that. Of note: Ruby apparently was married on the same day as Jane Doe — April 23, 2001″

    yes (sigh) I know this happened duane but if you would EVER read up on the subject you would know she was questioned in the same room as her captors. Even Elizabeth Smart had to be pulled away and persuaded for some time to finally tell the truth of her identity. Same thing with Ruby. If I was kidnapped and they were interviewing me in the same room with the kidnappers, you can bet I would be too scared to tell the truth too.

    Alinusara10 said:

    So your challenge to them is to make only the choices you approve of?

    Not at all, I want them to make choices for themselves. You know, like choosing to continue their education, being allowed time to grow up and making your own choice whether to be married or not. Choosing whether to be on birth control or have children, having the choice to say “no”.
    The basic rights we all have but somehow have escaped this group of people.

    Are you advocating for their “no choice lifestyle”? Are these girls & boys not entitled to make these choices for themselves?

  120. What makes my skin crawl is any nutjob who thinks their religion allows them to marry any girl past the age of menses.

  121. Ok “Pejorative” in Houston. Tell me which religion prohibits it? There is no wrong answer to this. I am trying to understand the moral basis for your remarks.

  122. “That’s why I call it a pejorative. I’m sick of bigots who parade around sincerely believing they aren’t bigots, who are so bigoted to the core that they can’t see it.”

    And then Hugh belts forth THREE perjoratives in the same sentence.

    Cant see the Forest fo the trees, Hugh?

  123. The old “bigoted against bigots” word game Stamp?

  124. No Hugh, it’s those evil immoral secularists who use scientific things like brain scans to say that it should be prohibited. See if you take advantage of someone who has not had the opportunity to let their brain fully develop then I’d say you’re being an immoral person. But hey, I’m one of those immoral secular humanists, what do I know about morality?

    Folks that clearly see the problems with your position don’t rely on their very own personal delusional perverted interpretation of some book by a bunch of bronze age goat herders.

  125. Hugh believing that you alone understand the “divine plan” is nothing more than the grossest form of bigotry.

  126. And that’s Mr. Pejoritive in Houston to you fella!

  127. Hugh

    The FLDS are self proclaimed bigots and you know it! That we press for civil rights for women and children, and for laws to be enforced, DOES NOT make one a bigot.

    Or a hater.

    But those names are used daily against anyone who wants to save children from molesters.

    BTW if you dont know who “Street” is, youre asleep at tha wheel!

    He has been bounced from the FLDS, then nearly all boards. His appearance here is on a probationary basis I’m sure – its only a matter of time before he spouts nasties when shown a truth or two.

    So how many people swinging with little girls in the NE? I hear from Bill O that the law up there is easy on pedophiles. Must be quite common?

  128. Ron, “tin foil hat” is the equivalent of saying “Do you really think that? That’s nuts!”. It DOES seem to me that Hugh is fairly sensitive to this subject, so I suspect that he has been called mentally ill before. Maybe even recently.

    Now on a scale of insults I’ve had thrown at me online, I have to say that just plain nuts is pretty low down the list.

  129. Because Science never changes it’s rules. Right. True today, reviled as backward tomorrow. That’s science for you.

    What you’re telling me is that we are ruled by whatever whim is popularly accepted. Grover Cleveland marries a woman half his age that he met at age 27, shortly after she was born. He bought her a baby carriage and otherwise doting on her as she grew up. When her father died, the court appointed Cleveland administrator of his estate. That brought him into still more contact with Frances at age 11. Then he marries her at 21. Creepy old man.

    Perfectly alright THEN, and he got elected to the Presidency after all of this, but damnable now. What a scandal. Now we know what a horrible thing it is for an older man to take advantage of a child in such a way. Bestial.

    So Orwellian. Eastasia is our friend, Eastasia is our enemy. Marrying the girl you bought a baby carriage for and raised, Presidential. The same thing today gets you on trial in Texas.

    It may be illegal Ron but you have no basis for strutting and claiming horrible immorality based on brain scans, scans of an organ we know less about that the Ocean Floor or the dark side of the moon. We’ll execute everyone we catch at that because our advanced science tells us to, until our advanced science tells us the executioners were the warped ones.

    Hula Hoop morality. How’s that working out for you? Didn’t the same scientists develop wonder drugs experimenting on the mentally ill?

  130. Betty – yeah, I suppose that’s exactly what I’m saying. However, if everyone who had nutty thoughts was mentally ill, then I’d say just about everyone is mentally ill.

  131. Betty,

    You suspect that? LOL, you have only to look to Ron for such an accusation, or maybe it was YOU. I’d have to live in a Skinner Box to not be called such a name at some time in my life. I certainly couldn’t blog on controversial subjects and not hear it.

    Just so you know though I spent a good deal of time in political advocacy for the rights of the mentally ill. Call me crazy. It’s been done before. I once sat on a state board that was charged with protection of the rights of the mentally ill, among others.

  132. Hugh wrote “Tell me which religion prohibits it?”

    Any one that endorses compassion and encourages treating human beings as something other than property, you sad excuse for a Christian!

  133. The idea of you on any state board scares the heck out of me. Did you tell them how you feel about the sexual availability of 12 year olds?

  134. Lean on that character assassination horn some more Betty. As for a sad excuse for a Christian? Any Christian is a sad excuse for a Christian, that’s why Christ DIED.

    Neither you nor Ron can point to a religion (yet) making an age limit restriction on marriage.

  135. Science in the guise of medicine, does very much change it’s rules as more information is discovered. Not only are their bodies not finished growing, but neither are their brains. Laws are also based on social changes, like women getting the vote and having enough social and economic equality to protect their daughter’s and allow them to grow up.

  136. But, Betty, he thinks its TERRIBLE that Grover Cleveland married a woman at the tender age of 21!!!! This guy is NUTS, and he has to be a colleague of rerickson!!! LOL.

  137. Perhaps if Fundies didnt commit crimes they wouldnt be paranoid and rife with conspiracy theories.

    And then they need to quit guessing which day the world will explode.

    Then, they can lose their “Tin Foil Hat” status.

    Until then, they abound by the hundreds. Some say its a matter of environment, some, like Hugh, a matter of choice.

    Not saying they are gay or anything, but lets look at the obvious!

  138. Ron your laser focus, mental acuity and acerbic wit are a real joy to me. Insightful viewpoints, intelligent acumen and persuasive legal interpretations makes me always interested to read your opinion. Unlike many whom post from an entrenched mindset or carved granite ‘cerebral fanaticism’, you are quick to perceive the more salient aspects to the debate and usually proffer a reasoned position of greater worth. Many of your posts are priceless and I place the greatest value in your exchange here and in the blogosphere.

  139. Gee Hugh, who really cares about your straw Grover?

    Science is not a God. It does not claim to be either omnipotent or omniscient. It changes and adapts to the available data. It admits when it was clearly wrong. I highly doubt your world view could ever admit to being “wrong.”

    However, just throw the brain scans out of the picture. I’ll bet you in your own mind know from experience that a 12 year old post menses female lacks certain executive functioning. To argue from your sick and twisted interpretation of what some Sky Daddy said to a bunch of superstitious sheep herders that somehow taking advantage of the lack of executive functioning is moral simple boggles the mind.

    That why you and your FLDS soul mates are pretty marginalized on that position.

  140. “Then he marries her at 21.” “The same thing today gets you on trial in Texas.”

    And this has what to do with taking a 12 year old as a concubine? Creepy, yes. Illegal? Not then, not now. It is NOT the same thing because 1) they didn’t wait until the girls were 21 and 2) they didn’t marry them, they just locked em in the harem.

  141. “Neither you nor Ron can point to a religion (yet) making an age limit restriction on marriage.

    Hugh McBryde said this on June 24, 2009 at 10:01 AM

    THATS not a religions job. Any religion worth its salt follows the laws, for many reasons, one reason is so they arent destructed.

    OOPS

  142. Ok, which of the FLDS men going on trial now, are married to minors?

  143. Well, Hugh, how about “whited sepulchre”? That’s what Christ called the churchyard lawyers, sure of their superiority, looking for loop holes and justifying sin by comparing Greek and Latin translations until you get the result you want!

  144. And following the law is an issue of morality separate from sexual behavior. What you’re admitting is that Religions generally ask us to obey laws, but not necessarily to agree with them.

    Thus I can morally marry a young woman, but might not be able to legally marry one. The immorality is disobedience to the STATE, not sexual immorality.

  145. According to their religion and to Texas law, all of them except the doctor who didn’t report births and the man who married his own child to Warren Jeffs, Hugh. You have a problem with reading comprehension?

  146. I don’t think you can morally marry a 12 year old, even if you don’t have sex with her until she is legally of age. Because you are imposing your will on someone when they are not capable of making an informed choice of their own. The 12 year old can’t join the Army, buy a beer, open a credit card, vote, decide where to go to school….but you think it’s moral to ask her to spread her legs for you and to read her scriptures so she thinks it’s in her best interest? Not.

  147. “Ok, which of the FLDS men going on trial now, are married to minors?

    Hugh McBryde said this on June 24, 2009 at 10:14 AM ”

    ———————-

    Another law they broke – they are just pretend marriages because what they do in BOTH places is illegal – The Bigamy AND the age.

    So most of them, including Warren Stalin Jeffs are prosectued for both – BIGAMY AND SEXUAL ASSAULT OF A MINOR.

    ANd Allen Steed for RAPE.

  148. No Betty, my point is that Grover Cleveland began to hang out with his bride when she was a child, he later becomes her legal parent while she is pre teen. Later he marries her.

    The similarity is that by the time of the trial the FLDS men will be in “relationships” with adult women they met at perhaps an older age than Cleveland did his bride. What really is our interest here? The women don’t seem at present, to care. They certainly can make up their mind NOW.

  149. “What you’re admitting is that Religions generally ask us to obey laws, but not necessarily to agree with them.”

    I am not admitting anything of the sort. I am standing by my statement that the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself extends to wanting what is really best for sexy little teenage girls. And to really love her is to allow her to develop as a human being before you make her a breeder.

  150. Hugh,

    Do you not see the stories in the paper concerning the teachers(female) that are sleeping with their much younger male students? What is happening to those teachers? They are going straight to jail, because when you sleep with a child it is criminal behavior.

    Society, I hope & believe, made it this way because when you see the mental & emotional damage it does to a child, it can never be anything else BUT abuse.

    We’re all horrified to see our teachers acting this way, why aren’t you horrified to see grown men doing the same thing with children just as young?

  151. Betty,

    You’re not quoting scripture, of any religion. I do not accept that morality originates from consensus. “Mores” might. “Values” might, but morality does not. Using the language of moral outrage is thus hypocritical of you and manipulative.

  152. Another point on your previous posting Hugh about marrying underaged female teens as not being particularly ‘heinous’ ignores the law. I assume that you believe changing the minimum legal age for marriage in Texas from 14 to 16 years is an illicit act by this State?
    Do you refute the legislative process or individual States rights and concerns to legislate any law into existence, or modify any law or repeal any law? Surely, Texas change in the marriage age for minors was good legislating or the Public would have formed an outcry which didn’t happen. Characterizing laws being modified as illegitimate power abuse is unfounded and denies the sovereignty of each State to establish it’s own laws, whether you personally approve or not.

  153. By the way Stamp, Allen Steed has not been convicted, of ANYTHING.

  154. Hugh wrote “The similarity is that by the time of the trial the FLDS men will be in “relationships” with adult women they met at perhaps an older age than Cleveland did his bride.”

    No, Hugh, unless Grover had babies by that young girl before they married, then there is little or no similarity. Forgetting that, are you?

  155. “The similarity is that by the time of the trial the FLDS men will be in “relationships” with adult women they met at perhaps an older age than Cleveland did his bride.”

    Oh my word! Those french kisses Warren was giving 12 yr olds – those dont count because – the girls are still only 14?

    LMAO

    You dont have a grasp of the law do you?

    Molest a child, do ya know what the statute of limitations in Texas is?

    Good luck stud, your going to be cruising bars, and not the bars where you can order a Dos Equis.

  156. Hugh wrote “By the way Stamp, Allen Steed has not been convicted, of ANYTHING.”

    Kind of unnecessary when he confessed to a crime repeatedly during Warren’s trial.

  157. “Yer Honor, the bank I robbed is still in business, so it dont look like I did any damage! No harm no foul, uh please?”

  158. Hugh, maybe you should try a political campaign on repealing all age of consent laws. I’m sure you’d get lots of support nationally for the Tony Alamo theory that “menses is consent”! Parents every where are going to get right behind that one!

  159. Hugh said:
    “the language of moral outrage is thus hypocritical of you and manipulative?

    Are you kidding? What language do you want her to use?

    “Moral Outrage” is what is going to put an end to all this abuse, Hugh, your just angry because it inspires people to stand up for what’s right!

    Which is what we are doing and what you SHOULD be doing if your weren’t so busy trying to cloud the issue with your talk of religion and morality.

  160. By the way Stamp, Allen Steed has not been convicted, of ANYTHING.

    Hugh McBryde said this on June 24, 2009 at 10:35 AM

    ==============

    Adding to Bettys point that he admitted to it, and helped Warren get TWO CONSECUTIVE 5-LIFE TERMS, he is having a hearing very soon and yes his case progresses.

    He hasnt been found innocent, THAT is fo sho!

  161. In general, over the centuries, law has evolved with a common code of decency, often one not spelled out by scripture. Before the Normans, in England, the penalty for murder was to pay a fee based on the worth of that person to the family who lost them. That allowed rich people to murder peasants with impunity. Fortunately, that was changed, long ago. Does that make it a fad? Slavery was legal once in this country; is the interest in people’s civil rights a fad, or the evolution of society in general? I personally believe that age of consent laws started being signed into law pretty much simultaneously with women getting the vote. Wonder why? Maybe women who were the targets of predators did not want that for their own children!

  162. FYI – sort of responding to Hugh’s question:

    In the Catholic church the canonical age is set at 16 for males and 14 for females. However, national councils of bishops can set higher ages. So Catholics in Canada and New Zealand cannot marry before 18. English and Welsh Catholics cannot marry before 16 for either sex. The Phillipines have the most restrictive ages of 20 for men and 18 for women.

  163. In order to have separation of church and state, and thus afford religious freedom to all, it is imperative that we build a common consensus on what can be defined as ‘moral’ that is NOT based on any scripture or on any one faith.

  164. Nice, Ron. Thanks for that bit of info.

  165. Yes Ron,

    Catholics do have that restriction. Fascinating what ages they set, isn’t it? And yes, I’ve remarked on that, on the record, before.

    The Catholics are prone to writing their own doctrines apart from scripture, which is why I am not Catholic. They do not base their age rules, on any scripture of their own.

  166. At least Catholics have the wisdom to make age more restrictive, not less.

    This country has never embraced Polygamy. If we did, think of all the muslims that would move in and invade us.

    No, Polygamy wont be legal here in my lifetime. Maybe after 100 years of really really good behavior – but I still dont see that happening.

    Just in our recent past we’ve had killings related to fundie plyg offshoots. These acts are remembered – regardless of all the child brides.

  167. Oh, it will be legal in the next 5 years, somewhere in these United States, if it takes THAT long.

  168. NO WAY..! LMAO! Say, does your wife and daughters wear the Prairie dress outfits, or is it just you who follows this mental path?

  169. Nice cherry picking you have of scripture there Mr. Pious Man.

    I guess your Bible doesn’t have this passage from Romans 13:

    1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you

    Or maybe your Bible doesn’t have this passage:

    1 Peter 2:

    13Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.

    That’s why the Episcopal church doesn’t specify an age but says:

    Before solemnizing a marriage the Member of the Clergy shall have ascertained:
    (a) That both parties have the right to contract a marriage according to the laws of the State.

    But hey, you’re the sole and absolute authority of what’s scriptural, right?

  170. The only possible way for Polygamy to become legal is for the SCOTUS to overturn convictions.

    They’ve already tried that.

    The SCOTUS told them to wrap it around a stone, put it in a hat, and chant 50 times “Polygamy is still ILLEGAL”…

  171. DANG Ron, I think that flogging you gave Hugh left a mark!

    THWACK, THWACK!

    Excellent scripture!

    However perhaps Hugh doesnt read THAT Bible..?

  172. Hugh, I find it even more interesting that the LDS Doctrine and Covenants still contains the rules allowing polygamy, even though the formal Church position is to disavow and excommunicate practitioners? Hugh do you think the LDS Church is on the sidelines over these enforcements against the FLDS? What’s your view are they quietly acting behind the scenes or wanting the FLDS handled before legalization of polygamy grows as a Utah political issue?

  173. Ron,

    You keep equivocating. You also are hitting that straw man overly hard.

    It is not immoral to marry because the law says it is illegal, it is immoral to disobey the government. The act of marrying itself, is not condemned.

    You set up a straw man here that I am advocating disobedience to the government as well. I’m not.

    Marriage too, if you will check (but that requires an entire reading of the Bible) does not require civil or religious solemnization. If you want to check, don’t let me stop you Ron. Until then, as a reader of scripture in multiple translations to the English, exhaustively, several times, per each translation, take my word for it. There is not one place that requires marriage to have a minister of the church or even a civil authority recognize it.

    The only hold that the state has over marriage is two fold. You can’t register more than one of them simultaneously with the state. You can’t have sex with people of a certain age without the benefit of legal registration, unless you wish to incur penalty of law.

  174. Actually, marriage was not a sacrament until the first half of the fifteenth century and there was no established ceremony until the 12-13th century. The marriage itself, vows and all, usually took place on the steps of the Church without benefit of clergy, where various notices were commonly posted and witnesses to contracts could easily be found. Often there was a blessing inside the Church of the accomplished fact and that blessing over time developed into a sacrament and was codified as such before the Reformation. Basically, you were married in the time of the first and second crusades if your community considered you to be, unless you were wealthy, in which case there was often a written contract. When the Normans in England and Italy began to codify the common law that our laws evolved from, the royal courts and their lower representatives governed marriage, managing inheritance and the like, while simultaneously concept of a sacrament of marriage developed. And, just to remind Hugh of history, all Christians were Catholic in the 12th century. Social customs in Europe had very little to do with Jewish law.

    I think that our lives here in the US would be much better if all marriages were civil unions and we left the determination of what is and is not sacred to the Churches.

  175. Not everyone agrees that morality derives from Scripture, Hugh. I hate to break it to you, but this is not a theocracy. But you could always move. There are a lot of theocracies out there for you to chose from.

    It is not moral to allow a child to decide they want to birth a child when we will not allow them to decide that they want to drink a beer.

  176. Betty,

    I agree with all of that with very minor reservations. I’d say “perceived sacrament,” not sacrament. I completely agree that the state should step back to the position of civil union and let marriage be the description that religious communities assign to the relationship.

    Eventually the state is going to permit multiple member civil unions, it’s coming.

  177. “The only hold that the state has over marriage is two fold. ”

    Trivial details like:
    IRS status, Social Security, pensions, communal property, child care and presumption of paternity, inheritance, laws related to next of kin, medical information availability, life insurance, automatic beneficiaries on financial accounts….yeah, not much of a hold, huh?

  178. Hugh, you laid down the challenge to give you churches that put age restrictions on marriage, and I did that.

    I’ve also pretty much said that your “morality” is based upon your twisted cherry picking of scripture. I’ve also given you concrete examples of how your perceived “morality” is actually not very moral at all.

    You live in your own twisted religiously delusional world on the margins of society and the margins of religion in the US. However, we live in a country that allows you to live in your own Bizzaro world as much as you want so long as you don’t try to put your beliefs in place and actually marry that 12 year old.

  179. Betty, I am not a theonomist, you can relax. I only hold out for being able to do that which I regard as moral, in a legal context.

  180. “Eventually the state is going to permit multiple member civil unions, it’s coming.”

    Yeah, that’s why it’s dying out in countries where it used to be common place. If you think that the religious right is going to fall in behind you on polygamy, Hugh, think again. I have faith that even the feminists will eventually wake up to the real issues of polygamy.

  181. No, I don’t think the religious right is going to fall behind me. I am anti feminist and unashamed to say so, I do not think you can make a “help meat” or “helper” to man that literally came out of man, into an equal in this life without destroying her.

  182. There is NEVER an Age given biblically in the bible for marriage. It talks about virgins, but direct age is never given. There were women in the bible who didn’t marry till OLD age, they were virgins also. So, Hugh, your stating a strawman even attempting to go there. Biblically, it talks about young maidens,but there again never states an age. Possibly could of meant, a female 20yrs of age.
    But the most excellant point of this whole conversation is the fact, we have established a government, a constitution, that provides rights for indivduals, including children. The constitution never says it can’t enforce the law, but under the amendment of religion, it states, the government cannot enforce a state or federal religion.
    Which in fact, means although we are free to believe and practice our religion, but if we intentionally break the laws of the state or federal government of another person by practicing out religion, then the LAW has a right to intercede.

  183. “The only hold that the state has over marriage is two fold. You can’t register more than one of them simultaneously with the state. You can’t have sex with people of a certain age without the benefit of legal registration, unless you wish to incur penalty of law.

    Hugh McBryde said this on June 24, 2009 at 11:18 AM

    Ignoring Hugh missed that most states also prohibit same-sex marriage, those two laws are exactly why the plygs are against mans law and against God.

    These sins bring them strife, Prison and destructions to family and property holdings.

    Ironic that God would punish plygs in real time like that – actually, I see it as self fulfilled destruction, God said they would suffer, and they are suffering.

    God didnt swoop down and say “Today I punish you”!

    He said “Do this and find yourself punished”…

    And so they have.

  184. Deputy, the documented age of marriage of King Josiah was probably 14, maybe 13, not any later than 15. His wives were (there were two) were probably similar. You don’t know your Bible, I do. Please, just trust me on this. There is no religious objection in Christianity to early age marriage on the basis of scripture.

    Stamp,

    Curiously, the marriages of 14 year olds to ancient civil war veterans (the young maidens seeking pensions) was never seen as “unconstitutional” deprivation of their rights. Suddenly it’s morphed to that now.

    Sames sex marriage is now legal in several states, Vermont and New Hampshire having passed those laws through their legislatures, not by overthrow of the court. Your “State” morality changes constantly.

    You make the argument of Jobs friends.

  185. Hugh the state’s biggest hold over marriages is the fact that they LICENSE the relationship and give it legal status within our society. Isn’t this what the Gay community is raising their whole ruckus over? We have over 225 years of existence here in the U.S. and the only two major societal changes are making slavery illegal and granting Suffrage to women. No Hugh legalized form of bigamy isn’t coming anytime soon and the political pandora’s box of same sex marriages, will likely keep it from ever happening. Same sex marriage is still a form of monogamy, albeit scripturally argued as to it being a nominated state of sin.

  186. Hugh “just trust me on this”, you “know” your “bible” the way you have chosen to interpert it. Doesn’t mean you have interperted it correctly, just means that you read into it what you wanted it to say.

  187. caj,

    There are “polyamory” groups pushing for it’s legalization right now, very hard, very actively. The form of marriage they wish to legalize is “group marriage” or any amount of people of any sexual orientation of any gender, natural or surgical, that wish to be together and describe themselves as married.

    They will probably not win legislatively, but they will win in the courts, soon, somewhere. Probably here in New England.

  188. “Stamp,

    Curiously, the marriages of 14 year olds to ancient civil war veterans (the young maidens seeking pensions)”

    Why are you obsessed with finding some example of underage marriage 100 years ago, 200 years ago, or millinea ago?

    The laws are today what they are today.

    I dont care if your religion is one of time travel, you are stuck here today with todays laws.

    Like it or leave for – I dunno? Zimbabwe? South Africa? I’m sure there is a culture out there that was carved just for you.

    Its just not here in America.

  189. They will probably not win legislatively, but they will win in the courts, soon, somewhere. Probably here in New England.

    Hugh McBryde said this on June 24, 2009 at 11:57 AM

    ———————-

    New England – Oh yeah the land of no bad thing going unrewarded.

    And you have MAM telling about how she bumped her head and was bleeding profusely and her young child begged people to help and no one would. WOW cool place.

    PS. Got a link!? I want to here about the transvestite plygs in your ‘hood.

  190. Stamp,

    Because it removes from the discussion MORAL INDIGNATION, which you and your allies frequently employ. What you’ve done is through custom and law, made something ILLEGAL. This divorces the moral indignation from the discussion.

    Fine, you’ve made certain things illegal, I have not said that I should disobey the law. I’ve said that I want your attempts to legislate morality rolled back. I don’t want you in my home telling me to whom I can be married.

    There is only one reason I cannot have sex with a 13 year old girl outside a member of by on family, do you even KNOW what it is?

  191. “There are “polyamory” groups pushing for it’s legalization right now, very hard, very actively. ”

    You want to estimate in your own mind how many polyamory activists there are versus how many Baptist moms? You think they are concerned about the sanctity of marriage and gays; wait until they realized that their own marriage contract was no longer an exclusive contract and they can’t sue for divorce and win cause he bought some other woman a house. ROFL. If polygamy is legalized by the supreme court, we will have a marriage amendment so fast it will make your head spin.

    I agree that libertarians are all 100% in favor of legalizing any and all forms of marriage. How many elections have they won, again?

  192. Betty, you’re either going to have to settle on what is moral, or what is legal.

  193. Repeating my question without typos….

    There is only one reason why I cannot have sex with a 13 year old girl right now, does anyone know what it is?

  194. Hugh

    “There is only one reason I cannot have sex with a 13 year old girl outside a member of (my) (own) family, do you even KNOW what it is?”

    First thing that comes to mind is your wife whapping you upside the head with a rolling pin the moment you utter those words.

    Thats pretty stiff preventative medicine right there, and I’ve read enough of you to realize the “LAW” wont stop you from doing whatever you plan.

    BTW the gays are at war right now with the LDS, in case your havent noticed, and the fundies too if the gays ever learn their doctrine.

    How many fake fundie gay marriages are there…? LOL

  195. Wrong Stamp.

    The answer is, that she hasn’t gotten married. It doesn’t even matter if she’s still married, or married to me.

  196. “Repeating my question without typos….

    There is only one reason why I cannot have sex with a 13 year old girl right now, does anyone know what it is?

    Because her father has threatened you with a shotgun? If you were my neightbor, and I knew who you were, I’d let you know the penalty for attempting such an idiotic quest.

  197. Actually, read the newspapers. There are men who get zapped for whatever reason all the time.

    If they kept it zipped they would live long, free lives.

    Look at the Dirty Dozen. They will be safe – if you call being safe in prison, safe.

  198. Hugh,

    If I feel moral outrage because some patriarchal rapist wants to blame God for his sins, then that’s MY RELIGIOUS RIGHT! BONUS! It’s also illegal!

    I can sit here and make up my own religion and twist it up with rolling papers if I want to and blow the smoke in your face. I have just as much right to my divine fantasies as you, Tom Cruise or Joseph Smith. You can’t argue the sanctity of religious freedom for polygynist presbyterians and then tell me I have no right to define my own concept of morality!

    Take off your tin foil hat and kiss my old wrinkly behind!

  199. Stamp,

    I’ve answered my own question, because dragging it out of someone like Ron would involve impossible distracting protests. I’m not sure we’d get it answered if I waited for someone else to answer.

    From a legal standpoint, a girl or boy is “emancipated” when they enter into marriage. They can in fact, even in Texas, enter into marriage at the age of 13. It is being done even now in Texas.

    So, if I confine myself to the presently married 13 year old as a potential sex partner, or to the divorced or widowed 13 year old as a potential sex partner, I commit no legal wrong.

  200. Not so safe

    “05-19) 07:05 PDT Soledad, CA (AP) —

    A 30-year-old convicted child molester is dead after being killed at Salinas Valley State Prison in Soledad.

    ——————————————————————————–
    More News
    Rodeo man dragged to his death by fleeing truck 06.24.09
    Police hunt for evidence slows BART 06.24.09
    House Democrats push health care reform plan 06.23.09
    Democrats counter governor’s budget proposal 06.23.09
    .
    ——————————————————————————–
    Lt. Eric Moore of the prison said Donald Jones was assaulted by a group of prisoners Friday morning in the general population maximum-security yard. He was pronounced dead about 90 minutes later. Prison officers recovered a stabbing weapon at the scene.

    Jones had been in the facility since 1995, serving a 20-year sentence out of Los Angeles County for sodomy on a child under 14.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/05/19/state/n070520D33.DTL

    PS THAT is a good reason right there bubba!

  201. “Betty, you’re either going to have to settle on what is moral, or what is legal.”

    Please reference the dictionary definition of ‘moral’ and you will find a distinct lack of any reference to scripture. In fact, the word “ethical” is used. It is UNETHICAL to fornicate with a 13 year old, because it is an abuse of power.

  202. “I’ve answered my own question, because dragging it out of someone like Ron would involve impossible distracting protests.”

    For instance, the use of logic.

  203. Wasn’t one of the Catholic priests convicted of child abuse murdered in prison?

  204. Actually Hugh I find it troubling that you can find only one reason you cannot have sex with a 13 year old girl.

  205. “…antifeminist and unashamed to say so”. Hugh you missed your century it has already elapsed. I am sorry but I don’t know how to roll back the clock to the time and place where your mood and beliefs align with reality. I take it your anti-feminism is well bigoted in your brand of faith and you make no apology for it. Do you lament the constitutional amendments for Suffrage and Slavery? Equal pay for women, workplace gender bias and imbalance of female elected officials all have Biblical explanations for the piously blind. Hugh your view may have been how the west was won but it isn’t how most people wish to win in the future. Tomorrow’s a new day and more shall be revealed to you and countless other sensory impaired believers.

  206. “Betty, you’re either going to have to settle on what is moral, or what is legal.”

    It’s nice when they coincide, isn’t it? Like murder, polygamy and child rape, all illegal, all immoral. It’s a wonderful day in my neighborhood.

  207. Here is a video of an angry father of a molested child. The molester didnt feel a thing – he never talked about it afterwards.

    http://www.sikvid.com/vids/2479.html

  208. Betty, your bible is the DICTIONARY? That’ll change in about 4 months. AGAIN.

    I find it interesting Stamp, that you’re pointing to illegal acts.

    Somebody needs to show that I am wrong about Emancipation. I really COULD be I suppose, but I really don’t think so, since I’ve done a little bit of research on the subject. I don’t have a law library though, and I’m not a lawyer.

    Whatever crime I might be committing by having sex with a 13 year old girl, who has been married, it is not child rape or statutory rape since the girl in question, can give consent.

    It would be rape if I did not obtain consent. It might be against some adultery statute in Texas, but I wouldn’t be a child molester.

  209. Reasons why Hugh cant fool with a 13 yer old:

    Impotence

    Spousal non-support

    Illegal

    The childs father and assorted crazy family members

    Risk of Aids – to the child

    He hasnt met one yet at his local bar.

    They kick him off the playground at school.

    There is a big sign in his front yarD “CHILDREN STAY AWAY – SEX OFFENDER LIVES HERE”

    His daughters would disown him

    Ohhh… theres more!

  210. And the number one reason!

    “Tin Foil Hats” Creep out teenage girls!

  211. “It would be rape if I did not obtain consent. It might be against some adultery statute in Texas, but I wouldn’t be a child molester.

    Hugh McBryde said this on June 24, 2009 at 12:24 PM ”

    ===========

    Well age of consent in NH is 16 and your age difference makes it worse.

    I predict an attempt at this folly would get you several decades, unless you found a judge who is “Sex assault friendly” as they occasionally have up there.

  212. Hugh the answer is Statutory Rape is defined as an adult having sex with a minor (child), Texas is 16Years or under.

  213. There were Two MEN went up to the temple to pray: the on a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood prayed thus to himself, God, I thank thee that I am not as other men, extortioners, unjust , adulterers, or even as this publican.

    I fast twice during the week, I give tithes of all I possess.

    And the publican standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast saying, God, be merciful to me, a sinner.

    I tell you this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for everyone that exhalteth himself shall be abased: And he that humbleth himself shall be exhalted!
    Luke 18:11-14

    NO Pharisee, I do NOT trust anything you say!!!

  214. mcbryde you are as Warren Jeffs, You worship yourself.You pray to yourself,you fast to yourself.. Pharisee’s always washed the outside of the cup to be squeky clean, but the inside of the cup was left gross, dirty.

  215. Deputy, you truly do need to read the first post on my blog.

    Caj, they’re EMANCIPATED if they have married. The “statory rape” laws don’t apply.

    All would do well to remember I am offering myself as a hypothetical example, due to my age. I have never had woman (or girl for that matter) that I did not wait until they were past 25, I’ve married both. Legally.

  216. They CANNOT LEGALLY be married – as a polygamist wife. Are you suggesting that they marry someone else at thirteem, divorce, and then marry you as a plyg wife?

    ILLEGAL.

    STILL.

  217. Hugh, a dictionary is a guide on how we interpret words. Words are used by two or more people to exchange information and ideas and that is best done if they agree on the meaning of those words. You can’t hijack the word ‘moral’ and assume complete control over how it is interpreted. You are defining moral to not only be Scripture based, but your own twisted of Scripture.

    Let’s try this. The Bible does not anywhere outlaw genocide. Oh, yeah, it says “Thou shalt not kill”, but then it has all those stories of the Israelites killing and being praised by God for it, so obviously the bible is not against warfare. So if the bible does not outlaw genocidal warfare specifically, there can be no moral standing to out law it, right? How about torture? Not included in the 10 commandments. No where does it say “Thou shalt not flay the skin from your neighbor.”. We might even argue that circumcision is torture, so it is actually REQUIRIING it as a covenant with God. So that must be OK, right? We can think of reasons why it would be loving to your neighbor to flay him; why, we might flay him in the hopes that he recants his homosexuality and takes Jesus as his savior. Surely, that is loving him, is it not? So flaying of skin is obviously

  218. Besides, trying to find a loophole in the law so you can mentally think how you could do this legally is SICK.

    Children – STAY AWAY- FAR FAR AWAY!

  219. That would be “your own twisted version of scripture”….

    And the emancipated minor thing based on common law marriage? Creative, but I don’t think anyone is getting off on that one.

  220. Stamp,

    The only thing they prosecute is child sex, which is a misnomer. Child sex is very narrowly defined in the law as being sex between a “never married” legal child under a certain age and a legal adult, who in some cases must also be a certain number of years older than the child. That’s really pretty complex.

    Illustrated by exemption, it is not “Child Sex” for two legal CHILDREN to have sex. No one has ever explained to me the damage that is done by a 55 year old set of genitals meeting a 13 year old set of genitals as opposed to two 13 year olds, but nevertheless, that’s the state of the law.

    It is not child sex if the otherwise “legal child” has been married. So in theory if I confine myself as an older man to sex partners who are married and otherwise underage, I don’t commit statutory rape. It is at least that way in most jurisdictions and the last time I checked, it was that way in Texas.

  221. Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

    Matthew 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

    Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

  222. McBryde, no one cares about your special definition of Pharisee. You are showing us what’s inside you and it’s rotten to the core.

    “One thing you can’t hide, is when you’re crippled inside.”

  223. Betty,

    I could be wrong but I doubt you have read the Bible. Completely. If you have you show a remarkable ignorance for it’s contents. So when you say I twist it, I seriously doubt you know it well enough to know, that I do so.

    The law is the law, it is given to the civil authorities. They do have to make consistent law and that proves far more difficult in practice, than in theory. Witness the loopholes that allow adult polygynists to practice, and homosexuals as well. When was the last time you saw a homosexual prosecuted for homosexual practices resembling marriage?

  224. Betty, it is not my special definition, it is a Biblical one that I can back up with the Bible. It’s not even a “competing” interpretation, all that I say is backed up with historical fact, at least from the perspective of scripture. If scripture is not to be trusted, then a Pharisee can be anything you or I want it to be and I would of course, cease to care entirely what the Bible said.

  225. Hugh

    Keep working that angle, but watch out for daddies shotgun! Or the wives rolling pin!

    You know the spirit of the law. Its funny how most people just dont think like you.

    Some do though. Prisons are chock full of people who claim they broke no law, or the law is bogus.

    Visit a few and ask them!

  226. Stamp,

    I’m sorry, it’s true. Married people can have sex, per the law. Texas marries young teens. It’s a fact. Do you propose they are all in violation of Texas law to have sex while they are married?

    I can give you theory Stamp, but the facts are pretty simple. Marriage emancipates with respect, at least, to laws regarding child rape or statutory rape.

  227. Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.

    Matthew 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

    Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

    A lepard cannot change its spots mcbryde, YOU Defend abuse of children and dig deep to find explaination for supporting it.
    You say Trust you???? I don’t walk amoung rattle snakes!!

  228. Deputy, there were good, and bad Pharisees, for instance, witness this, which occurs LONG AFTER Christ’s death, resurrection and ascension.

    “I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.”

    This is uttered by the Apostle Paul. Paul, the Christian, the missionary to most of the Northern Mediterranean area and writer of the greatest number of books of the Bible. Paul shapes the theology of all Christendom. He says he is a Pharisee, has been one since birth, and was born into a family of Pharisees.

    There were good, and bad pharisees.

  229. Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

    Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. (HOW MANY WIVES HAS WARREN REMARRIED TO OTHER MEN?)

    Romans 2:22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
    FLDS do Both!!!!

  230. Paul was Changed by God himself, but with the mercy God changed paul with,he also gave Paul a Thorn.

  231. The Bible does not anywhere outlaw genocide.

    Actually, God commands genocide:

    1 Samuel 14:

    2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ “

    That’s why the argument that so and so did it in the Bible means it must be okay is so specious.

    Saul wiped out all their people women, children everyone except their king. God was only upset with Saul because he kept the king and some of the sheep and goats alive.

    Genocide? Slavery? Incest? All can be justified as quite Scriptural.

  232. Hugh

    Do you even know why the FLDS didnt legally marry these child brides?

  233. Deputy, you’re distracting. Women, per scripture, were sexually experienced by definition. Lust is inappropriate desire. Matthew 5 says if you look on a sexually experienced woman (usually a wife) with inappropriate desire, you commit adultery (which always involved a married woman) in your heart.

    As to verse 32, don’t divorce your wife unless it’s for sexual sin on her part, if you say Warren commits sexual sin per the Bible, I’m in TOTAL agreement with you, 100% total agreement.

    If you say, per Romans, that the FLDS faith is a false faith, i am also in complete agreement with you, so is the LDS faith, so are the Jehovah’s witnesses. So are MOONIES.

    The laws that protect them though don’t get into discussions of what is true faith, they get into the area of protecting what amounts to, the right to be wrong about that. Those laws protect me as well.

  234. Ron,

    Stick to your alleged area of expertise, the Law. You don’t know the Bible, don’t pretend to me, that you DO.

    Stamp,

    There are quite a few reasons why they didn’t legally marry them. Do you realize that if I succeed in my own personal crusade to legalize polygyny, that they are then without excuse, and I’ll be at the picket line with a torch yelling against them next time?

  235. Hugh – I know the Bible too. However, unlike you I don’t use my knowledge in the pursuit of insanity.

  236. Hugh, you not only could be wrong, but you are very wrong. Believe it or not, it is possible to be fully informed and not agree with you. I have read the Bible. All of it. That does not mean I take every word literally as the word of God. People who do that go mad, and I think you are an excellent example of that.

    Would you really give up your daughter to be gang banged on the front porch in order to save your house guest? Does your daughter know that? Would you recommend that she support her mother in law by sneaking into the sleeping quarters of some male near-relative who is well off and curling up at his feet or would you just suggest that she get a second job delivering pizza? Would you murder a whole town because they talked trash about your sister? How do you know those voices telling you to murder your son like a sacrificial lamb are coming from God or would go away with the right medication?

    I believe that some of the New Testament and pretty much all of the Old Testament is the writing of ordinary Jewish guys with some divine inspiration. Any place in the New Testament where all the writers say exactly the same thing, IMHO, is a sign that there was some sort of spin or sorting of stories after the fact.

  237. Also, just for the record, you are not talking about religious freedom in the US. You are talking a theocracy with you as the Ayatollah.

  238. Hugh, I TOLD you God commands genocide. Well, actually, some Jewish guys who commited genocide said that God commanded genocide. I personally BELIEVE that when God said “thou shalt not kill” he meant to include the Amelikites. The Old Testament is the last place to look for a discussion of ethics.

  239. Betty, then what you think about it doesn’t count, since you don’t believe it. Seriously, you made it through 1st Chronicles, all of it? You made it through Numbers? All of it?

    You should re read the last three chapters of Judges and leave your horror at the doorstep. The woman is avenged by the near genocide of the tribe of Benjamin. As for my daughter knowing that? I read it to her.

    The whole town you reference was not murdered for trash talking, they were bumped off for countenancing the rape of Dinah.

    Ruth and Boaz obey Levirate law which is in Deuternomy.

    You illustrate by your quoting, bad quoting, that you don’t know it.

  240. Well Ron the pompous blowheart that isn’t holding his own today is trying to pull religious rank in his imaginary religio-supeiority. Hugh your take on the Bible proves your a lost leader on the subject yourself. Ron and Stamp just are poking holes in your views and you’re trying to assert your expertise, too rich for words!

  241. Ron,

    I see that in your one area of expertise in this discussion, that of the emancipation of a married minor, you have not weighed in.

  242. hugh says:

    “I am anti feminist and unashamed to say so, I do not think you can make a “help meat” or “helper” to man that literally came out of man, into an equal in this life without destroying her.”

    WHAT? I MEAN WHAT DID YOU JUST SAY?

    Is that what you think of women? We’re “help meat” or “helpers” ? For me to be an equal with you and be your life partner, it would destroy me?

    Are you serious? Did you REALLY just say that?

  243. Please explain your f- up view of anti-feminism Hugh, I’m waiting.

  244. Mississippigirl.

    DID.I.STUTTER? I’m not asking YOU to believe it, or you to go along with it, I’m asserting my freedom to believe that and have it govern MY behavior.

  245. Govern your behavior? You know what, You’ve never met or had a REAL woman , that’s why you get away with your stupid views.

    That’s why you sit on the board and want to dissect how having sex with a 13 year old is not “particularly heinous”.

  246. The old testament is full of scripture about many wives and concubines, but NO WHERE DID GOD CONDONE IT!!
    The new Testament the word concubine isn’t used ONE time. And I might ADD Christ says ONE man ONE wife.

    Mcbryde, I might add,, if you say you are a beleiver in God, and yet continually deny the fact, Polygamy is wrong and are willing to stand in a protest to support it,,, You have proven yourself NOT a believer !!!!

  247. Leviticus 18 in fact, is GOD telling People NOT to do it!

  248. And just for the record, you NEED to stutter when spouting off that ridiculous comment.

    I guarantee you – I”m your equal and so is every other woman on this board.

  249. Hugh,

    Reading that part made me consider hating all men on the planet and retiring to a buddhist monastery. Revelations is the obvious result of ergot poisoning and anyone who claims to understand it is admitting insanity in public.

    No honorable person throws an innocent non combatant to the enemy for a humiliating death and then brags about how they ‘avenged’ her by slaughtering the uninvolved.

  250. Thank you, deputy! But wait for it…he’s going to tell you there’s a super secret decoder ring translation that means something else than the obvious words.

  251. What you need Hugh, is the good love of a women that will show you what equality is all about.

    Now I don’t have anyone in mind for you at the moment, but remember, the girls at the YFZ ranch are off limits for you to consider.

  252. Nobody was born by ripping out a rib bone, any more than man is made out of mud. All men came out of a uterus of some sort. Really. Although in a sense, I believe that God breathes life into us, the rest of that is just a story to tell children.

  253. “I see that in your one area of expertise in this discussion, that of the emancipation of a married minor, you have not weighed in.”

    Why bother, if you spin fairy tales, make yourself the ultimate authority on everything, start a competition and declare yourself the winner….why wear out the fingers?

  254. Thank you Betty. Hugh is on “Fantasy Island” right now, choosing his 13 year old that will never be equal to him unless he destroys her.

    Has me worried, it does.

  255. Sadly, I bet Hugh is making a good woman miserable while we speak. Maybe she’s the one I should be praying for.

  256. Hugh is good talking about it on the internet, bet the wife hasnt heard peep one.

    This site includes comments about guys like Hugh who would dare act out their fantasy.

    http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=866714

  257. Isn’t that the truth!

    I can’t believe he would come to THIS SITE and say something so completely offensive and ridiculous.

    I mean, Hello?, have we not all discussed it to death, the fact that they don’t see the women as anything more than cattle and treat them as such?

    Then here comes Hugh, ” to be a help meat” it would destroy her.

    what in the heck is a help meat?

  258. Just for the record, when it comes to Mcbryde, he can call me a bigot all day long for supporting laws to protect children, but Id rather be a bigot, than a hypercrite like him!!!

  259. Mississippi Girl. Are you telling me my wife either doesn’t love me or isn’t a good woman?

    A little bit of background. She was in her time, a near Olympic caliber diver, she is MULTI lingual. She has more than one degree. She DOES love me. I think she’s pretty good. The college she graduated from is widely regarded as being one tier below Ivy League.

    Are you suggesting I could have done better?

  260. Exactly, DD.

  261. I’m suggesting you need to view women as equals and not make stupid comments like “it would destroy a woman to be a life partner.”

    Did I STUTTER?

    Does your wife know your on here stating she is not “your equal”?

    I think not.

    And you THINK she’s pretty good?

  262. No Mississippi Girl, I used my real name and my Santa Clara University educated world traveling wife doesn’t know what I think. I happen to think I am extremely fortunate to be married to her. We are not equal in roles on this earth for the short time that we are here. We are equal in inheritance in His Kingdom.

  263. Well first of all mississippigirl the mighty hugh purposely misspelled the word, it is “help mEEt”. But hugh is just being a blowhard on the computer and spouting to unknown people that aren’t going to physically put him in his place, that all women are just a piece of meat. This comes from the fact that his wife rules his roost and has him under her thumb. The internet is the only way he can feel like a “man”.

    People you have heard the expression DON’T FEED THE TROLL, that is all that has happened here today. But guess hugh feels like a big man as long as he is sitting in front of the computer screen.

  264. So is she is the one shopping for a divorced, imancipated 13 yr old for you?

  265. I personally don’t feel like getting into a debate with idiots or fools so will leave hugh to the rest of you to feed.

  266. Troll is right. Hugh is closer to living under a freeway overpass than he is to hooking up with a tweener.

  267. Tell it to the 13year old, Hugh.

    Maybe she will believe the equality crap you just said.

    We don’t.

  268. Correct, help meet. I typo. More and more.

    Sadie, more people are likely to put me “physically” in my place than they would you, since I am exactly who I say I am and no one else. I could be found, and “put in my place” with relative ease. Suggesting that it is in any way appropriate, or even bringing it up is an amazing threat on your part, but I expect that from the anonymous, and, by the way, Trolls are generally anonymous, I am not.

    It is the position of the Bible, throughout, that women were made FOR MAN. In roles on this earth, they are not equal. If I teach that, and believe that, that is my right. If others, including women, also believe that, it is their right.

  269. Well, I agree to a certain extent. I think it is useful to understand the Hughs of the world so that we can deal with them.

    I don’t know why I think this, but I suspect that Mrs McBryde just lets him rants on as he likes and that in every day life, he is good to his family. I don’t know why he has to have these misogynistic and anti government fantasies, but I really don’t think he’s going to turn into a Timothy McVeigh or a rapist of 13 year olds. He’s probably worn out his welcome in many, many congregations, though.

  270. Whoa Betty, not seeing women as “equal” has nothing whatsoever to do with misogyny. We’re here for what? 80 years maybe? The rest of our existence is spent in eternity where we are judge and positioned by how well we did what we were told to do, here.

    It says in the scriptures that “The first shall be last, and the last shall be first,” so if I really oppress women based on them BEING women here on this earth, I am likely to be see as trying to be first, and will in fact, end up behind those souls who were women on this earth.

    There are no gender roles in the hereafter. It’s like being asked to play a part in a skit prior to the main event. I’m telling you, this is just an audition and our reading of the part we’re given has more to do with how we spend eternity, than what part we were given.

  271. “help Meet” doesn’t mean CONTROLLED mcbryde
    Woman was created to be a “help meet” which means to help man in his life.
    Now,,, How many men do you know that obey what Christ said a husband should do????

    Christ said, A Husband is to LOVE his wife as God Loves The Church (his bride)
    If a Husband loves his wife as God loved his church, then a husband and wife can become ONE, If he doesn’t which Polygamy proves HE can’t because there are to many wives, and God never said Share yourself or your bed with mulitple women.
    In FACT from the Old Testament , all through the New Testament God did NOT condone, extra wives, affairs, lovers, or concubines!!

  272. BTW Betty, I haven’t “worn out my welcome” at any congregations since I was thrown out of one where the 50 plus pastor was humping the young girls of the church.

  273. There is NO Marriage, or giving in marriage in heaven either! So, you are supporting something other than God or Scripture mcbryde.

  274. Ben Johnson said “Which man and which woman?”

    I say that I am not here FOR anyone, but to work out my own salvation best I can. To say that someone else’s existence is for the benefit of another is to endorse slavery I do not believe that that is what God intended; I think that is what Jewish goat herders prefered.

    My husband and I discussed and struggled with the idea of a family having a defined leader. Granted in war time or other times of extreme stress, it’s good for survival to have a hierarchy. His loving care for me was enough for me to try to give him the superior role. It didn’t work. We found with practice and interaction that there are times when he’s more competent to lead and times when I am. If we are both concerned about the happiness and the general good of the other, how can dominance be an issue? If Christ washed the feet of the apostles, would not a Christian man act like his wife’s servant?

  275. How convenient for you that you got the leading role in a play written by men for men! Don’t mind now if I don’t buy tickets!

  276. Betty,

    You’re already playing your part.

  277. So you aren’t misogynistic, but you ARE anti-government? Should I revise my thought that you are NOT a potential McVeigh?

  278. Hugh,

    I am a life partner. But I stand side by side with my husband. He doesn’t control me, boss me, over-ride my decisions, make me have sex when I don’t want to, make me have a a baby once a year, none of that. We stand together in figuring out life’s issues.

    All the women out there raising their kids alone with no financial support, no emotional support(I understand that men do also but on a smaller scale) , why are they less equal to the man that they got pregnant by?

    Why do you come on this board with this group of people that are FIGHTING for the rights of women and children and say something so degrading?

  279. Betty,, God meant that as the Husband being the Spiritual leader in the home… Not the controlling of every thought of his wife and children. My wife is better at finances than I am. Im not unmanly for admitting that,so she takes care of that. Im better at yard work than she is, so I do that. We have both worked for years, and all the money we make, is “our” money, not his and hers.
    My wife is the stronger person in a crisis,,, which is such a blessing, because I don’t handle crisis to well, without her , I don’t know what I would do! She completes me, and I think I complete her.
    Im for the dreams she has, and she is for mine. We lead together as ONE.

  280. Man may be the “head” but woman is the “neck”, and Without the Neck , the head can’t turn. 🙂

  281. Hugh,

    See you in hell.

  282. Absolutely could not have said it any better myself, deputydog.

    My husband and I are the same way. Some things he is so much better at than I , and vice versa. BUT because of that, we in no way think each other is “less equal” than the other.

    It is a partnership. Something I wish the women in FLDS would realize.

  283. I’m NOT anti Government. LOL, where do you people GET these ideas? I am against LAWLESS Government, not “Government Über Alles.”

  284. Betty, since I know where I’m going, I’ll be sure to wave atcha, since there won’t be much else I can do. I’d greatly prefer you come with me though, to eternal life in Him.

  285. Hugh, You don’t have a clue where anyone is going! Only God knows the heart.. Like I said earlier, you chose to follow the letter of the law, which does you or anyone else any good. But, it’s your choice… I trust there will be many in heaven , you will Gasp when you see them there mcbryde.

  286. You are a hypercrite,you talk out of both sides of your mouth mcbryde, but you Your Blog name suits you: PHARISEE!

  287. When you talk your “smack talk” about women, Hugh, we get alot of ideas from you.

    I am against “Lawless Government” as well, which is one reason I am so upset that this group of people have been allowed to flourish in all of their criminal activities as well as brainwashing ones.

    But I’m not sure if I should say “lawless” or “absent” Government.

    I think both fit.

  288. Hugh,

    I agree with DD. You have no clue.

  289. Deputy,

    Either you don’t have faith, or it is very very small. Faith is the evidence, it is the only objective knowledge you have apart from your own existence. I know. I don’t know because of anything in me apart from that which was placed in me as a result of God’s Grace, but I know. Really. Truly. I know.

    My salvation is the result of the work of Jesus Christ, Son of God, Son of David, Son of Man, my savior. It is a gift to me because of God’s purposes, not because of my own merit. If in fact it has anything to do with my worthiness, it would be the total depth of depravity that I was found in, the worthlessness that I represented.

    The letter of the law never saves, never has. Those that are righteous follow the law without effort, those that are unrighteous stumble on it. Christ fulfilled the law both by doing it, and by taking it’s penalty. In the first case I could not do it, in the second, I could not survive it.

    I assure you deputy. I KNOW where I am going. I have utter and absolute assurance. None of that originates in me as a result of anything I have done.

  290. I never said you didn’t know where YOU are going. I know where Im going, but I don’t know where anyone else is going and YOU don’t either. The fact you “accuse” others of not being as righteous or as holy as you is Self Grandizing on your part, Not grace.
    I would be willing to bet you mcbryde, in heaven there will be those you thought of as dead in Christ, and some you WON’T see there who you just knew would be there!!

  291. hugh

    “The letter of the law never saves, never has. Those that are righteous follow the law without effort, those that are unrighteous stumble on it.”

    ============

    See FLDS, apply concept.

  292. There will be many , who as Christ said, will have said, Lord, Lord, didn’t I do this in your name, or that in your name? And the Lord will say,, away, I never knew you!! People like false prophets, and those who intentionally followed false prophets into abominations like incest, adultry, child abuse.

  293. We’re ALL unrighteous Deputy. Christ was righteous. I know where I’m going, so if Someone says they’ll “See me in Hell” I’m sort of amused, and sort of sad.

    I don’t want anyone at all to go to hell so I’m sad. I’m kind of amused because when they say “See you in hell” I’ve always assumed that meant they thought we were both going.

    Sorry to disappoint, but based on the finished substitutionary work of Jesus Christ on the Cross, I’m not going. If I see anyone there, I’ll be waving across a chasm. At them.

  294. Im amazed that teaching a child the only way to heaven is through “perfect obedience”. We all know there is NO such thing.
    I also become angry , when I hear, you have to obey some funky prophet because HE owns you and your salvation!!! Bull crap!!

  295. Or the only way to heaven is if your married!! Salvation is a PERSONAL decision between the person and GOD, it has NOTHING to do with marriage. Or your husband, or family!

  296. I’m not following some “funky prophet.” Who are you talking to?

  297. Dont you realize Hugh? Without some loser Prophet to tithe to and worship, you dont have any back up to throw the fear of hell into little girls.

    Whaddya gonna do? Seduce them at a Bible study? BWA HA HAAAAaa

  298. Stamp,

    I’m not FLDS, I’m Orthodox Presbyterian.

  299. Im talking about religious cults mcbryde
    and the damage they do to children

  300. But you are supporting abuse mcbryde thats the whole point!

  301. Deputy, I’m supporting in reality the protections that grant us all religious freedom. If that from your point of view (unfortunately) protects the FLDS that is the tab. We need to pay the bill.

    Kids get hurt. The vain pursuit of a perfect world where children do not get hurt will destroy freedom of all sorts, and the kids will go out with the loss of that freedom and be more greatly oppressed.

    The FLDS have four basic points of intersection. They are not Christian, but they follow a rough Judeo Christian heritage. That’s one.

    They also advocate Polygyny as a valid form of marriage. I may be rare in my denomination in that regard, but we agree there as well.

    The Freedom of Religion that the FLDS need, I need as well, I wish to selfishly protect my religious freedom, but I know of no way to do that without protecting theirs.

    Last, the FLDS and I correctly recognized that nothing in the History of Christianity and Judaism prohibits or even discourages younger people to marry. We agree on that as well.

  302. You act as if God made the female less than the male. He in now way did that. In the book of Judges, God chose a woman to lead the Armies… In the new testament, Paul commented on Junia, and he called her an apostle.

  303. I think you are CONFUSED Hugh, is what you are. You need to have a little talk with the wife about the stuff on your website.

  304. Deputy, and Paul said woman was for man, not the other way around. Stamp, why would I clear this with my wife? She give you a good talking to, for assuming she doesn’t already know.

  305. Polygamy is NO where in the bible. Secondly, Nothing can stop anyone from believing in God. Not even the supreme court. I have found it incredible, you don’t have to belong to a religion, denomination to fellowship with God on a personal level. A building with a bunch of people isn’t what draws me closer to God, its God who draws me closer.

  306. Go read Leviticus 18 mcbryde… Flds do all of what God said NOT to do, but they quaintly ignore Leviticus 18

  307. Deputy,

    What’s your point?

  308. My point is, You agree with them! So if someone makes up a religion and having sex with a donkey is the only way to heaven, you would most likely go along with that to.

  309. Hugh Donkey Saint

    I like that!

  310. No Deputy, I have points of agreement with them. I’ve already stated, here, today, in this particular thread, that I think the do things that are immoral, that conflict with the Laws of God, that they teach AS the laws of God.

    It will not change the fact that we agree on Polygyny, that we agree that “underage marriage” is not a sin, or that we both need the constitutional protections that allow us to practice our own religions.

  311. So Hugh, was Jesus a polygamist or even married?

    Do you believe God, Holy Spirit and Jesus are the only ONE TRUE GOD?

    Thank you for your answer.

    SusieQ

  312. Underage marriage is ridiculus, especially in this day and age. I don’t care what religion anyone is or is not!. Furthermore, I would like to see the laws on the books we already have enforced! Especially the one about Polygamy!! Its disrepectful, degrading and down right slavery to women to be in polygamists marriages!

  313. I doubt seriously Christ was married, if he was, it was in the form of a betrothal never consummated. Scripture never states anything about this, but most Jewish men were married. Christ however lauds those that have the gift to be “Eunuchs” which suggests that at least as an adult, he was not married. Theologically there are real problems with Christ being married as he almost certainly would have had children, and he being perfect, would have had perfect children, I see no evidence of this so I lean heavily towards no on the marriage question.

    I am a “Trinitarian” Susie, so yes, I believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirt as GOD, period. I’m not LDS cruising in disguise.

    Deputy. Underage marriage is only defined by our society. Ancient Judaism believe in and practiced betrothal at an early age. Marriage too often started very early. You should do a careful survey of the children of Josiah the King and what it says about when Josiah had those children.

  314. Leviticus 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

    Leviticus 18:6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.

    Leviticus 18:7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

    Leviticus 18:9 The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.

    Leviticus 18:10 The nakedness of thy son’s daughter, or of thy daughter’s daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness.

    Leviticus 18:11 The nakedness of thy father’s wife’s daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

    Leviticus 18:12 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father’s sister: she is thy father’s near kinswoman.

    Leviticus 18:13 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother’s sister: for she is thy mother’s near kinswoman.

    Leviticus 18:14 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father’s brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt.

    Leviticus 18:15 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son’s wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
    Leviticus 18:16 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother’s wife: it is thy brother’s nakedness.

    Leviticus 18:17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son’s daughter, or her daughter’s daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.

    Leviticus 18:18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.

    Leviticus 18:20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour’s wife, to defile thyself with her.

    Leviticus 18:29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.

    Leviticus 18:30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.

  315. mcbryde, we are no longer ancient, nor jewish! we are gentiles, grafted in through Christ.

  316. Deputy, the laws of sexual immorality as given to the Jews still apply, or the letter of Acts to the Gentile Churches cannot define “sexual immorality” or “fornication” when they instruct the gentile churches to be moral in that regard.

    If you’re saying the FLDS violate some or all of these laws, you’ll only get an argument from me over the extent to which they do so.

  317. Well, Hugh is clearly not an orthodox Orthodox Presbyterian. Orthodox Presbyterians subscribe to the Westminster Confession of Faith which says In Chapter 24:

    Marriage is to be between one man and one woman: neither is it lawful for any man to have more than one wife, nor for any woman to have more than one husband, at the same time.

    Maybe we should call him Hugh the Heretic.

  318. Ron,

    The Westminster Confession is not Scripture. The membership vows of my church make provision for and actually demand dissent from me when I see error, it’s question 5, it goes like this:

    “Do you agree to submit in the Lord to the government of his church and, in case you should be found delinquent in doctrine or life, to heed it’s discipline?”

    Q. What does it mean to “submit in the Lord” to the government of this church?

    A. It means that you heed the teaching and admonishment of the elders as long as they are teaching what the Bible teaches (1 Thes. 5:12ff). No one, including church leaders, has the right to make any requirements that go beyond those given in the Word of God.

    Q. If you ever have a disagreement with the leaders of the church or any other member, how should you handle it?

    A. If you believe it is important, you should go directly to the person(s) involved and talk it through. Never gossip, but get appropriate people involved if necessary to help bring peace. God commands us to “make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of Peace.” (Eph. 3:3).

  319. Hugh it just shows that even in your own claimed denomination you’re so far out in left field as to be subject to discipline.

    Crap you even claim to be a Calvinist and he annulled polygamous marriages.

    It’s pretty clear that you feel you are nothing more than a law unto yourself.

    You’re a legend in your own mind.

  320. Indeed, it is Christian to marry at 12. Otherwise, you are not Christian, for the Christian Law proclaims emphatically: “Thou shalt NOT DELAY to offer THE FIRST (which is puberty) of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquor (which is menses).

    To be Christian is to be like Christ: “And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? Wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business (which is obviously the business of a father)?And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them” (Luke 2:49).

    Why do the wicked not understand? Because of wickedness, that is why. They do not value life from the sources, which is puberty of “the season thereof”, as the above law decrees. And what is the Judeo-Christian law? All through the ages, the Jews have had the Bar and Bat Mitzvah, which means literally “Son and Daughter Commanded”. To do what? To become adults at age 12. This is why they are called “adolescent”, because that age is “Adult Essence”.

    Every traditional culture has abided this law, or they aren’t traditional but apostate: Jack-Mormon, Jack-Christian, a fraud, anti-Christ posing as Christian. In light of these facts, the FLDS is the ONLY CHRISTIAN church in existence today, for it is the only church that keeps the law in its purity without changing it, like churches and governments do continually.

    Many have proclaimed in the past on these blogs that Christ’s decree that He “must be about my Father’s business” pertains to His ministry. How so? Everyone knows that His ministry did not begin until He was 30-years old. So what business of a Father must He be about? Simple: The business of a father, at age 12. That’s the law, and any changing of the law is just lawless, and a total loss of credibility and authority.

    I received a communication today on this matter, and I will post it here.

  321. Blinded as Hugh feels he can see clearly an obvious weakened sense of Justice and morality. Hugh you say that children being hurt pays the bill for your altar of ‘Religious Freedom’? Who told you that was the price and received the payment? Seems to me the child abuse is been occurring and no FLDS members were paying any price until Warrens Utah convictions. Soon to be followed by other members who are slow to see the Light. I say paying for ‘Religious Freedom’ with just one innocent child being hurt is unethical and morally reprehensible for me to preserve something at another’s expense. Hugh even England, who was the tyrannical colonial power, no longer practices exclusive religious enfranchisement, so you seem to be quixotically chasing at your imagined windmills, again. I think the twists within the FLDS Church tenets show definite signs of demonic turns including bigamy. Your false claims at selflessly defending Constitutional rights is laughable, the Utah State Constitution spells out that polygamy is unlawful. The Prophet Jeffs’ propensity for the FLDS Church members to ‘celestial marry’ minors is against the law(s) based on both age limits and bigamy laws, your finding of no biblical reference doesn’t give this illegal act validity, it is still criminal and withstood Constitutional reviews.

  322. Revelation to Street June 24, 2009. I asked the Lord today: Are rulers of this nation, and of other nations, living polygamy in secret, and supporting their secret families with taxpayer dollars, while accusing others of the same and calling it a crime? This answer was given.

    Yea, behold, it is as the fang of a beast, for their own ill gain, to justify their theory of majesty over the judgment and cursing and the depletion of others. For behold, they have reached their climax and cannot endure, for their corruption destroyeth them all. The earth is the Lord’s, and the fullness thereof, to give unto whom I will.

    Verily, the voice of the Lord is unto all men to live my law, and none shall escape, but their secret acts shall all be revealed, that men may discern between the righteous and the wicked, saith your God. For rulers hear and know that which they have never considered. But they have no foundation to sustain their houses, having rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him, an heir whom I have sent, but proclaiming: “Behold, this is the heir. Come, let us kill him, and let us seize upon his inheritance, his united effort”. Therefore, I will let the government of my vineyard out to other husbandmen who shall render the householder of heaven the fruits in their seasons, when they come into season or into puberty, who will not slay or prevent little children who yearn to come unto me, but save them alive.

    Whereunto then, shall I liken the men of this generation? They are like unto children in the marketplace, or the public place, calling out to the people, saying: “We have piped unto you many laws, and ye have not danced. We have mourned to you over your children, and ye have not mourned. Ye are gluttonous and have a devil” (Luke 7:31-34). Behold I say, woe unto you rulers, for ye laden men with burdens or with laws grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers or branches. Ye only provoke and lay in wait, that ye might accuse them. Ye have departed from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, speaking lies in hypocrisy, and having your conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from strong doctrine (I Tim.4:1-3).

    Behold, I have sent unto you prophets and apostles, and some of them ye have slain and persecuted, that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of this world may be required of this generation, for it is the same blood, even mine. Behold, only a born ruler of men is able to obtain greatness and abundance of houses and of children unto eternity, because his will is directed to what is great, even my law and my revealed word unto the prophets, which ye seek to devour for a pretence (Matt.23:14). But they whom ye persecute shall receive an hundred-fold now in this time, of houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions, and in the world to come eternal life. This is like unto my servant Warren whom ye persecute, he who applies and enforces my laws, even as my Zion rises and Babylon falls, for he has clarity of mind and purity of heart.

    Behold, the wicked seek also to multiply as the stars of heaven, but their secret is revealed, for they have eclipsed the light that I have sent them, in order for the gross darkness of their stars to be seen at noon day. For behold, they love the disease of darkness more than my life-giving light. Therefore they must go into eternal darkness, and are their own destroyers. In deception and secret intrigue, they destroy this nation for fantasies of empire, that Babylon may fall, that the angels of heaven my give thanks saying: “We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come, because thou hast taken unto thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

    The nations are angry, and my wrath is come to destroy this last beast which seeks the darkness, to seize and to rule in secret, and to destroy the earth, having rejected the life-giving light of my law and of its fundamentals which go forth through my latter day saints, that I may give reward unto my servants the prophets, and to the saints, they who fear me and keep all of my law fearlessly, that I may destroy them who destroy, and save them who save, even the goodness of family and of children and of my doctrine.

    Behold, I have cast away from my church that which destroys, that I may save mine elect, even as in former times, for the harvest of the earth is ripe. An angel cometh forth out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to one like unto the Son of Man: Thrust in thy sickle and reap, for the time has come for thee to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

    Even so. Amen.

  323. Hugh thank your for your answers.

    I never took you for LDS.

    I believe in one God. Only one high priest Jesus (God).

    It really disturbs me how Warren in his writing’s talks about atoning for the sins of his flock.

    Does that bother you Hugh?

  324. cajIM: June 24, 2009 at 5:05 PM

    Cagy, your ignorance is GLARING: Hugh’s referring to the hurt that comes from being corrected:

    If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

    But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons (Hebrews 12:7-8).

  325. Thou shalt NOT DELAY to offer THE FIRST (which is puberty) of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquor (which is menses).

    Oh yes, let’s equate our daughters with watermelons and MD 20/20.

    At least you could be brave enough to keep your screen name Street.

  326. Heah Curious what the hades does that mean, in plain English in thirty words or less?

  327. Why do crazy people always say God talks funny?

  328. A lot of things bother me about the FLDS and Warren Jeffs Susie.

    Ron, I’m more specifically a “Hyper Calvinist.” Calvin wasn’t a “Calvinist” and Calvinism has to do with the organized theories regarding predestination or “Monergism” that Calvin put in his institutes. I can’t help it that Calvin got things wrong, I am greatly aided in being more completely right about things by virtue of the fact he has already done some of my homework.

    Semper Reformanda!

    I always ask the denomination, which is committed to be reforming, not to be reformed, what they have reformed lately? It is assumed, even by the writers of the Westminster confession, that we got things wrong 500 years ago, at least in part. Maybe not much, but some things wrong.

    Luther precedes Calvin and Luther agreed with me on polygyny whether you know it or not.

    “Curious,” I do not agree on your interpretation.

    “Caj,” it is my position that there is nothing WE can do to completely prevent the abuse of children, so it is better than “one should die, rather than many” as was prophesied. I will opt for a formula in which the least amount of abuse occurs, I do not fool myself with myths of zero tolerance producing a zero result.

  329. cajIM – You don’t get it. If you understand you need to be afraid – very afraid.

  330. Curious don’t you think the description of first fruits is meaning just the physical fruit from the harvested fields and not your menses insertion. How about the trees planted in the orchard that are not to have the first three seasons of yields harvested?
    Don’t tell me you have another revelation about that?

    Heah Hugh one should die so that many should live wasn’t that the reasoning of the Saducees and Pharisees at Christs hearing before the High Priest? If someone has to pay and ultimate price why don’t you volunteer. Say are you a veteran, maybe that’s why you think somebody else should pay. My patriotic handbook says I would serve and die for my country if needed.

  331. Right Hugh, just keep making it up as you go along…

  332. Ron, I get that the ones who proclaim that the Constitution is dangling and hanging by a thread have scissors in their respective hands, whether it is Willie R. Jessop or Hugh ‘Child’ McBryde, et al.
    Am I, Right?

  333. SusieQ said this on June 24, 2009 at 5:09 PM:
    It really disturbs me how Warren in his writing’s talks about atoning for the sins of his flock. Does that bother you Hugh?

    REPLY: Susie, the prophets who suffer the most follow and confirm the atonement of the Lord to each generation.

    And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her (which is the false church, and the false nation that persecute the saints), and THE PRIEST SHALL MAKE AN ATONEMENT for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him (Numbers 15:28). You see here, that the Lord is concerned with numbers (plurality, fruit), or else He curses that tree.

    cajIM said this on June 24, 2009 at 5:22 PM
    Curious don’t you think the description of first fruits is meaning just the physical fruit from the harvested fields and not your menses insertion. How about the trees planted in the orchard that are not to have the first three seasons of yields harvested? Don’t tell me you have another revelation about that?

    For Christians, Christ is the revelator: First and foremost, the Lord is far more concerned with the fruit of the loins (with people), than he is with some funky piece of wood, wooduntchathink, or the fruit that comes from that? But what do we see in the law?
    And that which fell among thorns are they (PEOPLE) which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection” (Luke 8:14). It is now plain that our perfection is the issue here, but the fallen churches and governments of the earth seek only to be “choked with cares and riches and the pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection”, as the Lord says.

  334. See there Hugh? You attract guys like Street who will prove to you why Polygamy will not be legalized, and dopes that dare to pull off actions on those thoughts will go to prison.

    Perhaps Street would like it better in Thailand, I hear they have a tourist industry just for pedo-people who think that way.

  335. So street, whats your take on little Warren? I know he’s no prophet of yours.

  336. Street

    ” For Christians, Christ is the revelator: First and foremost, the Lord is far more concerned with the fruit of the loins (with people), than he is with some funky piece of wood, wooduntchathink, or the fruit that comes from that?”

    ===========

    So off traipses Street, on his quest for cherries. But hes oldt now and the prospects are thin, but hey that guy whokicked him out, Warren, might be gone by the EOY, and who nose, he might get a swing at some skirts!

    YATHINK..?

  337. cajIM – If you think about it, the real purpose of the Constitution is to put checks on governmental power while still providing a government that can maintain “domestic tranquility.”

    Most folks who say the Constitution hangs by threads forget about the latter. So yes, I’d say those folks shouldn’t play with scissors.

  338. SusieQ said this on June 24, 2009 at 5:09 PM:
    It really disturbs me how Warren in his writing’s talks about atoning for the sins of his flock. Does that bother you Hugh?

    REPLY: Susie, the prophets who suffer the most follow and confirm the atonement of the Lord to each generation.

    And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her (which is the false church, and the false nation that persecute the saints), and THE PRIEST SHALL MAKE AN ATONEMENT for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him (Numbers 15:28). You see here, that the Lord is concerned with numbers (plurality, fruit), or else He curses that tree.

    Stamp said this on June 24, 2009 at 5:44 PM
    See there Hugh? You attract guys like Street who will prove to you why Polygamy will not be legalized, and dopes that dare to pull off actions on those thoughts will go to prison. Perhaps Street would like it better in Thailand, I hear they have a tourist industry just for pedo-people who think that way.

    REPLY: Polygamy is already legal. That is the law, and any usurpation by any other law respecting an establishment of religion is unlawful. That is not only the Christian Law of God’s Word, but YOUR LAW, the supreme law of the land, for the Constitution has decreed it. There is no other law, but only usurpation of the law. There is no other system of marriage than polygamy in the earth today, one Father of us all, as you will all agree, and millions of mothers bearing His children. That fokes is polygamy, universal. No other law. Anything else is only a usurpation, see, “dopes who dare to pull off actions on perverse thoughts, and equating immaculate conception to sexual perversion, they being only perverse continually, and objects of God’s wrath.

    The Prophet Warren is being vindicated, and triumphs even now, to all eternity.

  339. the Lord is far more concerned with the fruit of the loins

    Gee Curious a classic example of anthropomorphism. You’re the one I’d say is more concerned with your loins.

  340. The Prophet Warren is being vindicated, and triumphs even now, to all eternity.

    Yep, and those prison walls are just going to fall down and he’s just going to walk out, right?

    Anyone Google the current phases of the moon?

  341. McBryde Flds doctrine isn’t scriptural either

  342. Curious, No man todays blood atones for ANYONE’s sin!! We are responsible for our own sin, The blood of Christ was shed to atone for sin.

  343. What is it, Whacky Wednesday!?

    Polygamy legal, Warren triumphing, 12 -13 year old girls are bait for old geezers Hugh and Street – is someone passing out LSD in the hallway?

    Good thing those boys are all bark and no bite – otherwise we’d have to read more news of arrests!

  344. Christ never said to marry a 12yr old, Nor did God. And curious the truth is NOT in you!!

  345. I like how Warren has power over PligKid and Street – throw them out on their ear, and they still lick his boots!

    At least others like PligKid no a certified nut when they see one!

    And PK ought to know!

  346. What’s in Curious – is something curious – strange – ugly….

  347. Curious try as you may, God’s word will never be distorted as you have done! or Brigham Young or Joseph Smith have done. The ONLY key to the kingdom is through the REVELATOR,the REDEEMER, Jesus Christ!

  348. Just as God used Absalom to avenge Tamar’s rape by her brother, God is always in Charge!!!! Not you, Not me! God! The scripture says, God is No Respector of persons.

  349. Curious Street Christ wasn’t as concerned about loins as being the one who came to do the Father’s will and pay the Sacrifice of the Cross, so that all might live and abide with Him and the Father for all eternity. Your reference to Luke’s parable of the sower reminds me that the seeds that land on rocky ground, like say the YFZ Ranch, won’t take root and only the seeds that fell on rich soil have the perseverance and will then bear fruit. FLDS Church has enough thorny issues right now for us all to know where their fruit bearing chances lie( in a lie, in a lie and in another lie).

  350. The good thing about Street’s posts is the unbared unabashed raw FLDSTHINK.

    He types his version of a messed up, twisted, rabbit hole religion.

    Balance that against what Warren says – not far off. Head above the clouds, feet never on solid ground.

  351. Ron in Houston the passage,” the costitution is hanging by a thread” comes from the ‘White Horse’ prophecy of Joseph Smith, if you’re unfamiliar with it I would suggest you ‘google’ it up. This prophecy I suspect is once again in favor amongst the FLDS Priesthood, especially given Warren’s sandal dusting trip.

  352. deputydog1 said this on June 24, 2009 at 6:18 PM
    Curious try as you may, God’s word will never be distorted as you have done! or Brigham Young or Joseph Smith have done. The ONLY key to the kingdom is through the REVELATOR,the REDEEMER, Jesus Christ!

    REPLY: Ahh, how so crucial are the Prophets? Is Christ so unimportant to you that you can just barge in and seize the throne, or are there gatekeepers with keys? Ye must be “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone” (Eph.2:20). “whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began” (Acts 3:21). “Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken” (Luke 24:25). “Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? And the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?” (John 8:53). But are they indeed dead? “But now the righteousness of God WITHOUT THE LAW is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets” (Romans 3:21).

    We can all plainly see from this, that God always speaks through prophets, from Eden to Warren. Rejecting them does not make THEM false.

  353. Curious,, Christ has the keys to the kingdom,, NO ONE ELSE..

  354. Christ sets on the right hand of GOD, not warren jeffs, or brigham young or joseph smith.

  355. cajIM said this on June 24, 2009 at 6:23 PM
    Curious Street Christ wasn’t as concerned about loins as being the one who came to do the Father’s will and pay the Sacrifice of the Cross, so that all might live and abide with Him and the Father for all eternity. Your reference to Luke’s parable of the sower reminds me that the seeds that land on rocky ground, like say the YFZ Ranch, won’t take root and only the seeds that fell on rich soil have the perseverance and will then bear fruit. FLDS Church has enough thorny issues right now for us all to know where their fruit bearing chances lie( in a lie, in a lie and in another lie).

    REPLY: Yes, He came to do the Father’s will, to marry and to bring children into the world, as the Scripture proclaims:
    1. And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there (to witness her son’s marriage).
    2. And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage (placement marriage).
    3. And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
    4. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come (for miraculous provision, but first the provisions of a family).
    5. His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
    6. And there were set there six waterpots of stone (M-D), after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
    7. Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
    8. And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
    9. When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called THE BRIDEGROOM (JESUS).
    10. And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now (parable for good Vine or woman).
    11. This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him (the glory of the man is the woman).

    And later He is found as the householder in the house of TWO WOMEN. Then later, at the Cross, “Many Women”: And many women who followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to Him, were there looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses,[l] and the mother of Zebedee’s sons” (Matt.27:55).

    It is Jewish tradition for wives to follow only their husband, and to administer only to their husband.

    What else do we see regarding His children? We see the mention of Jesus’s seed: He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? For he was cut off out of the land of the living. For the transgression of my people was he stricken” (Isaiah 53:8).

    The Hidden History of Jesus and The Holy Grail – This of course indicates that Jesus had children and, by implication therefore, that he was married. So was he married? Did Jesus have children? …
    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/…/esp_biblianazar_1.htm

  356. Deputy Said: “Flds doctrine isn’t scriptural either.”

    Some of them are, I daresay probably most of them are.

    Stamp Said: “Good thing those boys are all bark and no bite – otherwise we’d have to read more news of arrests!”

    The old “Damned do/don’t” trap. Somehow I’m not serious it is alleged, when I refuse to do something even nominally illegal while advocating that it isn’t illegal. Stamp, I am not a creature who is out of control and slave to my drives. I can WANT to do something, and not do it, it’s called self control, and of course, as all good things are, insofar as they abide, they are a result of Grace from God.

    I am not married to two women, and I believe sex should be confined to the bonds of the husband/wife relationship. You don’t see me in the news because I am law abiding.

    The FLDS for the most part, are “law skirting” when it comes to their marriage practices. I contend this is legal as well, but I am not given to pushing those limits and they are. They occupy a gray area of the law that I think they are completely right about, but their risk is in the fact that others who have the power to push their point of view, don’t agree.

    I have a “bite,” I assure you, it is alive and well, but by the Grace of God, as I said before, I am not slave to my impulses.hu

  357. I should clarify that the doctrines of the FLDS speak about, are in regard to the practical expressions of marriage.

  358. “I came to do my father’s will, says Christ, and what is the Father’s first commandment to man? “Multiply and replenish the earth, and subdue it” (your portion of the earth, to subdue yourself, to bring forth fruit without immoral passion, by the Lord’s way, the man going into “a deep sleep” (Gen.2:21), and the woman being “overshadowed of the Holy Spirit” (Luke 1:35), as these scripture reveal.

  359. Hugh McBryde said this on June 24, 2009 at 7:15 PM
    The FLDS occupy a gray area of the law that I think they are completely right about, but their risk is in the fact that others who have the power to push their point of view, don’t agree. I have a “bite,” I assure you, it is alive and well, but by the Grace of God, as I said before, I am not slave to my impulses.

    REPLY: It is interesting to note that the “gray area” pertains to “gray=matter”, which is the cosmic color of Chakmah, which is wisdom.

  360. Proverbs 5:1-14 CommentaryWisdom (02451) (chokmah or hokmah) as used in this context describes the ability to …… It’s a slow fade when black and white have turned to gray
    http://www.preceptaustin.org/proverbs_51-14_commentary.htm

  361. Curious your New Testament quotes and twisted interpretation is not in the 2000 year tradition as commonly believed or interpreted. If Christ’s Kingdom is not of this world then it follows that his physical seed would have no purpose here. If Adam and Eve fell into sin for eating the forbidden fruit(symbol of sexual intercourse), then why would the Son of Man be guilty of having committed original sin, alternatively through Christ’s singular perfection was all mankind shown that He was the Son of God and truly came from Heaven and was Risen in Glory of his rightful position on the Right Hand of God. Jesus has no need of a wife, children or other women in a procreative sense this physical life will end and pass away. God did not need to have physical sex with Virgin Mary either in order for her to become pregnant, do you so doubt that God is limited in any way by the physical world. Mary was impregnated by being ‘found with child through the Holy Spirit’ [Matt 1:18], owing to her willingness to accept God’s plan. So sorry Street my New Testament records no wife or children of Jesus Christ in His lifetime, I know for you this is a shocking assertion of faith but dates to the Christian churches formation, see the Creed of Nicea.

  362. cajIM said this on June 24, 2009 at 7:53 PM
    If Adam and Eve fell into sin for eating the forbidden fruit(symbol of sexual intercourse), then why would the Son of Man be guilty by having commit original sin, rather through Christs singular perfection was all mankind shown that He was the Son of God and truly came from Heaven and was Risen in Glory of his rightful position on the Right hand of God. Jesus has no need of a wife children or other women in a procreative sense this physical life will end and pass away. God did not need to have physical sex with Virgin Mary either in order for her to become pregnant, do you so doubt that God is limited in any way by the physical world. Mary was impregnated by being ‘found with child through the Holy Spirit’ [Matt 1:18], owing to her willingness to accept God’s plan. So sorry Street my New Testament records no wife or children of Jesus Christ in His lifetime, I know for you this is a shocking assertion of faith but dates to the Christian churches formation, see the Creed of Nicea.

    REPLY: Ahh, now you’re talking. You have hit the nail on the head and driven the nails yourself. The fall came by partaking of the forbidden, which is SEX. So repent, and go thy way and sin no more. Christ has shown mankind the way, even as He Himself proclaims: “Let the little children come UNTO ME”. “ I came to fulfill every law, not to destroy”, and the first law to man is to “Multiply and replenish the earth”, but what else? What reverses the curse of partaking of that which is forbidden?

    The curse is lifted when man learns to obey the Lord, to let the children come, to multiply and replenish the earth, but WITHOUT SEX, without partaking of the forbidden, and why? Because the pleasures of the flesh are death, and the pleasures of the spirit are life eternal. Then you are pure and Christ-like, and not until. Intercourse is not divine, but animal in nature. Immaculate conception involves an artificial insemination, and that too without physical pleasure, for the man is “in a deep sleep”, and the woman is “overshadowed”, see.

    Now, this is not for the world, for the world will remain the world, and lawless, and go down to an eternal death. This is only for saints, the lawful who fulfill these laws, who go unto eternal life.

  363. Actually the forbidden fruit was the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Spelled out for you. Not sex. We left the garden of eden because we became self aware and cognitive enough to make our own choices. And thus our only way back is through free will.

    And how, exactly, do you let the children ‘come, to multiply and replenish the earth’ without sex? Turkey baster? No, the male still has pleasure filling the darned thing, sleep or not. OK, so the real problem is when WOMEN have pleasure? Geez. You’re God is meaner than Hugh’s!

    And while I’m poking holes in your fantasy, isn’t the world replenished enough already? How over populated do we really need to be?

  364. Curious your confusing Abraham’s Covenant with Moses Ten commandments or laws? Christ came as the Messiah to fulfill the Prophecy, be thee example following God’s will for us and the Paschal lamb for Sacrifice devoid of any flaw or blemish. Christ fulfilled the laws of Moses and the Prophetic Covenants are not laws, like God’s sacred pledge to Abraham is not a law, you’re mistaken.

  365. Well, I enjoyed my little tete a tete with Hugh today and I finally figured out why he sympathizes with the FLDS. He lives in a fantasy of Old Testament Goat Herder ethics; whatever is good for the priesthood is the will of God.

    It all makes sense now. You are unethical jerks blaming your narcissism on God. How unoriginal. But at least a pattern emerges.

  366. “I like how Warren has power over PligKid and Street – throw them out on their ear, and they still lick his boots!”

    Stamp, PK and Street both left the FLDs on their own accord, PK doesn’t lick Warren’s boots and would be greatly offended if he knew you said that.
    Street doesn’t speak for the FLDS, his rants do not represent the FLDS viewpoint.

  367. Betty said this on June 24, 2009 at 8:26 PM
    Actually the forbidden fruit was the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Spelled out for you. Not sex. We left the garden of eden because we became SELF AWARE: REPLY: Ahh, see, I’m a boy, I’m a boy, you’re a girl, you’re a girl…”Self Aware. Very good Betty.

    “And how, exactly, do you let the children ‘come, to multiply and replenish the earth’ without sex? Turkey baster? No, the male still has pleasure filling the darned thing, sleep or not. OK, so the real problem is when WOMEN have pleasure? Geez. You’re God is meaner than Hugh’s! REPLY: Ahh, Betty’s confessing to private immorality. But confession is good, as long as you can overcome your body, and begin to sow instead to the spirit. “Go thy way and sin no more”, saith the Lord unto the immoral woman.

    “And while I’m poking holes in your fantasy ” (ADMIN: Watch it or you will be banned) , isn’t the world replenished enough already? How over populated do we really need to be? REPLY: Only one-thousandth of the inhabitable land mass is inhabited. The correct question is: “How over-populated do our wicked cities really need to be”. This is the “chaff gathered in bundles ready to be burned”, not being designed after the order of heaven.

    cajIM said this on June 24, 2009 at 8:26 PM
    “Curious your confusing Abraham’s Covenant with Moses Ten commandments or laws? Christ came as the Messiah to fulfill the Prophecy, be thee example following God’s will for us and the Paschal lamb for Sacrifice devoid of any flaw or blemish. Christ fulfilled the laws of Moses and the Prophetic Covenants are not laws, like God’s sacred pledge to Abraham is not a law, you’re mistaken. REPLY: Ahh, who is, really. All of God’s word is law, for God is our law in the FLDS Church. If His word is not your law, you are clearly manifesting and confessing your rejection of God, in favor of man. Then, who is confusing what?

  368. “Ahh, see, I’m a boy, I’m a boy, you’re a girl, you’re a girl…Self Aware. Very good Betty. ”

    Well, that’s only self aware if you’re about three years old.

    I see the egotist has been replaced by the down right deranged.

  369. Enough of the religious claptrap. It does not matter what it says in the bible, the koran, the BOM, etc. Nor does it matter how someone interpets those religious texts. What matters is this: have flds members or other people of interest commited acts that are against the state and federal law as currently written. If so, investigate them, indicte them if the evidence sustains that and then try them. If found guilty they must pay the punishment proscribed by the law.
    All the religious double talk and the belief that polygamy will be legal in 5 years, 10 years, whatever means nothing. What matters are actions and current laws. PERIOD

  370. Curious when God makes a Covenant, like Abraham’s Covenant, it is a single-party sacred promise. If it was a Commandment or Law it would be given as such in God’s Word? Are you suggesting that God doesn’t know the difference between a Commandment or a Covenant? Surely you’re mistaken. I believe Christ came and fulfilled the laws of Moses without sin, including the guilt of original sin, and you’re twisting into all of God’s word is law.
    For you FLDS to say God is law, Christians say God is Love therefore Love is God and God is Truth and Truth is God. You guys seem to always be a couple of bubbles off plumb when measured to true level.

  371. Ron,
    “Betty – now you got me thinking. Does anyone else see “tin foil hat” as Hugh claims “pejorative?””

    For what it’s worth, I never really have, and I tend to be rather sensitive about “mental health” insults. I have always felt that “tin foil hat thinking” was a reference to a particular type of conspiracy theory, paranoid way of thinking that is often a sign of schizophrenia but certainly not always found in a schizophrenic. Also, most schizophrenics do NOT don tin hats, so it can’t be perjorative towards schizophrenics in general. (At least not in my humble opinion.)

  372. Curious is Street amd his job is to muddle up the blog with his crap.

    Ale wife has a very good point.

    CaJim I am so very impressed, but it is lost on Curious Street.
    Curious your confusing Abraham’s Covenant with Moses Ten commandments or laws? Christ came as the Messiah to fulfill the Prophecy, be thee example following God’s will for us and the Paschal lamb for Sacrifice devoid of any flaw or blemish. Christ fulfilled the laws of Moses and the Prophetic Covenants are not laws, like God’s sacred pledge to Abraham is not a law, you’re mistaken.

  373. “If someone has to pay and ultimate price why don’t you volunteer. ”

    Why volunteer when there are innocent daughters to throw at the problem? Real men don’t fight their enemies, they give them girls to rape.

  374. “People who wear tin foil hats are mentally ill. You might as well call me “mongoloid” or some other epithet.”

    hmmm, okay, that’s a valid point. Although, as I stated earlier, I don’t believe “tin foil hat” behavior is limited only to paranoid schizophrenics, nor do I believe that the majority of schizophrenics, paranoid or not, are of the “tin foil hat” variety. Also, conspiracy theorists abound without being mentally ill. Mentally odd, maybe, but not necessarily mentally ill.

    “The down’s syndrome person is no less a human being because you wish to make me feel little by calling me such a name, neither is the schizophrenic less of a human being because you call FLDS supporters people who wear “Tin Foil Hats.””

    Actually, I believe it has more to do with the love of vast conspiracy theories that so many supporters have, rather than the fact that they support the FLDS. After all, Regina supported the FLDS, without buying into massive conspiracy theories, and was not accused of “tin foil hat” thinking that I’ve ever noticed.

    “But YOU, are an unannealed BIGOT. And that makes my skin crawl, just to be around you.”

    Pretty strong words coming from an unannealed mysogynist. You have repeatedly stated that you do not feel teen girls are deserving of basic protections or basic human freedoms to make their own choices. You tend to make my skin crawl.

  375. Who could not laugh at Curious saying: “Ah, Betty’s confessing to private immorality?”
    Even the Onion isn’t this funny.

    “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.” (James 1:17) That includes sex, surely one of God’s most brilliant ideas.

  376. Rebeckah, I realize that it’s been a long day, but is Hugh claiming he has Down’s Syndrome?

    (Making a tin-foil hat is harder than it looks.)

  377. OK, I have trouble following this even when sober. So goodnight, all.

    But tomorrow, I want to talk about how many girls were taken across state lines for the purpose of illegal sexual contact—i.e., Mann Act violations. I’d actually like to make a list, if that is possible.

    (No, I don’t care for a moment whether some of you think the law is ‘right’ or not. I want a simple tally.)

  378. Can ANYONE tell me WHY IRS isn’t examining the FLDS LLC Books??

  379. Hugh,
    “You’re not quoting scripture, of any religion. I do not accept that morality originates from consensus. “Mores” might. “Values” might, but morality does not. Using the language of moral outrage is thus hypocritical of you and manipulative.”

    Trying to limit “moral” values to “religion” is hypocritical of you and manipulative. Moral behavior:

    1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.
    2. expressing or conveying truths or counsel as to right conduct, as a speaker or a literary work; moralizing: a moral novel.
    3. founded on the fundamental principles of right conduct rather than on legalities, enactment, or custom: moral obligations.
    4. capable of conforming to the rules of right conduct: a moral being.
    5. conforming to the rules of right conduct (opposed to immoral ): a moral man.
    6. virtuous in sexual matters; chaste.
    7. of, pertaining to, or acting on the mind, feelings, will, or character: moral support.
    8. resting upon convincing grounds of probability; virtual: a moral certainty.

    is not defined as “religiously approved” behavior, but rather of behavior which is “right” as opposed to “wrong”. Now back in the bronze age marriage and conception right after menses was “moral” and/or “right” for two reasons. The first was because life was uncertain and surival of the species rather dictated it. The second was because the age of puberty was several years later than it is now, and a woman’s mind actually had more of a chance to catch up with her body. Betty’s argument that your views on marrying a barely pubescent girl is infringing on her basic human right to mature and make her own decisions is right on the money. A “moral” man would allow a girl to become a woman before attempting to lock her into a sexual and reproductive commitment. A “moral” man would not need some supernatural being to command him to do so either. A “moral” man would see such a thing and, as expressed by the majority of religions today, “love” that girl child as he loves himself and allow her the same mental, emotional and legal freedoms as he, himself, wishes to enjoy.

  380. Illustrated by exemption, it is not “Child Sex” for two legal CHILDREN to have sex. No one has ever explained to me the damage that is done by a 55 year old set of genitals meeting a 13 year old set of genitals as opposed to two 13 year olds, but nevertheless, that’s the state of the law.

    The “damage” is the damage of a mature, experience adult seducing a child into sexual activity before they are ready. There is a presumption, which may or may not be accurate, that with children the same age there is no predatory behavior. People who have been molested as children generally suffer greatly as adults. Many, if not most, of them suffer depression, self esteem issues, and are at a higher risk of sexual acting out (including becoming offenders themselves), drug and alcohol abuse, and self destructive behavior including a vastly higher suicide rate than the general public. No one has ever “explained” the damage simply because you don’t want to see it.

    And, for the record, I was a fundamentalist, born again Christian for 25 years, and am WELL versed in the Bible. You are ignoring all the parts that DON’T support your own, misogynistic world view in favor of those that do. (Actually, it was the dichotomy of God telling people “Thou shalt not kill” and then saying “go wipe out every Amelikite you can find, including infants” that finally killed my faith. The dichotomy of a God who has convinced you that women are sub-human and needed to be subject to men, while the Bible tells of women like Esther who saved her people or Deborah who was a judge over her nation, just adds to the confusion.

    “Betty, then what you think about it doesn’t count, since you don’t believe it. Seriously, you made it through 1st Chronicles, all of it? You made it through Numbers? All of it?”

    LOL! What she thinks doesn’t “count”? Why, because she thinks or because she thinks you’re a fruitcake? I’ve got news for you, the only people who respect your chauvinistic bigotry are other chauvinistic bigots.

    And finally, yes, the attitude that women were made “for” men and have no other function than to be subordinate to men IS mysogynistic. Not to mention the attitude that it’s okay to rape a 13 year old girl rather than allow the imaginary “infringement” of some ancient patriarchial rights you think you should have. Women are not second class citizens anymore and all your wishing and twisting of Judeo/Christian scripture isn’t going to make it so.

  381. Curious/Street said: “Immaculate conception involves an artificial insemination”

    …I’m having that printed on a T-shirt.

    p.s. ‘fist-bump’ to Ron in Houston- we are ‘of a mind’, but you actually say the words. (Thanks :))

  382. Texasmom it is called the turkey baster method.

  383. Rebeckah, it is a mistake to assume that behavior in failing societies is the same as was practiced in prehistory. There is no evidence that prehistoric cultures married girls off right after menses. Most women can get pregnant easily; the trick is keeping kids alive. Raising children has always been a cooperative venture among adults in a community. That argues against casting daughters out for impregnation at the first possible instance. (See mating patterns in social species from wolves to primates as well.)

    For example, although the nobility contracted dynastic marriages for their teen daughters during the Middle Ages, the great unwashed generally married their daughters off later. A couple had to be capable of supporting themselves to be allowed to produce children. (See Germany’s early-19th century marriage restrictions on the poor for an extreme example of how societies dealt with the problem prior to social welfare.)

    Social upheaval causes average marriage ages to dip. For example, young marriage became more common each time a plague rolled through Europe. (This might be what we are seeing happening in the poorer parts of Africa as AIDS marches through.)

    There is absolutely no evidence to support the idea that Americans ever routinely married as young teens. This is a fiction designed to mask the horrid behavior of polygamists.

    American marriage age declined through the 20th century to reach its historic low in 1956. This is the source of public misconception about when people married in the past, because people make the assumption that “If Granny married young, Great-Great-Granny probably married that much younger.”

    An analysis of census data in the US in the decade prior to the Civil War shows that children left their parental home at a mean age of 26.5 years for men and 22 for women. Furthermore, it was actually more likely that girls would work away from home for a few years before marrying than that their brothers would. (Sons were tied to the home-based industry more tightly than girls were.)

    By 1900, the trend toward younger marriage was already started, with median ages of 26 years for men and 22 for women. But by 1960, the median age had dropped to 22.5 years for men and 20.1 years for women.

    (http://web.econ.ohio-state.edu/rsteckel/VITA/1997%20The%20Age%20at%20Leaving%20Home%20in%20the%20US.SSH20.pdf)

    (http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/hh-fam/tabMS-2.pdf)

  384. GFNY, Yes I thought it was funny. I had fun while having sex with my husband. I confess publically to this horrible, biblical immorality. LOL. I am fairly sure that I was not filled with the Holy Spirit, although I did invoke the name of God and a few saints along the way and I WAS downright grateful to both my husband and to God for setting up this whole arrangement to start with. I’m too old for babies so that’s probably a whole ‘nother sin right there. The shame.

    I guess I’m going to FLDS hell, but I was already assigned to Orthodox Presbyterian hell (whatever that is) for not agreeing with Hugh about the superiority of his genitalia compared to mine.

  385. REbeckah wrote “Why, because she thinks or because she thinks you’re a fruitcake? I’ve got news for you, the only people who respect your chauvinistic bigotry are other chauvinistic bigots.”

    YEAH! Thanks. And I promise not to call you “Becky”.

  386. Rebeckah wrote “Pretty strong words coming from an unannealed mysogynist.”

    Oh,you misunderstand. Hugh doesn’t hate women. He loves them. Especially when they cringe and grovel at his feet while he reads the Old Testament to them. And he’s not a bad, evil master; that would be wrong. But it wouldn’t keep him out of heaven, cause he got a golden ticket right from Jesus and he KNOWS he’s going.

    Did I miss any important points?

  387. “Texasmom it is called the turkey baster method.”

    I’m imagining a Sexy Jesus at the Linen and Things wall of kitchen toys looking for a turker baster so that he can ‘let the children come’ without sinning.

  388. “I only hold out for being able to do that which I regard as moral, in a legal context.”

    You’ve proven that you think genocide and child rape is Scriptural, only you are the arbiter of what is moral and…I SHOULD RELAX???? I think the FBI should monitor you for when you actually strip a gear and start building bombs to kill gay married people or women who think they are your equal or Democrats or something of the sort….

  389. I would like to kinow why Jack Wayman who owns New Era Mfg company in Gardener, NV (near Las Vegas) has not been charged by any LE agency for aiding and abetting Warren Jeffs when he was a fugitive felon. Jack provided the red cadillac Warren was in when captured.
    Also, Jack provided almost a million dollars to the YFZ which is the place where underage marriages took place and where Warren was hiding while on the lam. Sounds like Jack has dirty hands up to his elbows.

  390. Ron wrote “What is it really that folks “admire” about the FLDS? The false piety? The anachronistic sort of lost in time prairie self reliance? The fact that we’re taught that we should be “tolerant” of others’ religious beliefs?”

    I have given this some thought, also. I think it’s the canning. Really.

    Most Americans live in two income families with children. They are tired, lonely and eating hamburger helper or a bucket of chicken. They see the road not taken when they see the FLDS and mix it up with happy memories of grandma and snippets of Little House on the Prairie. I think a single day of real canning would cure most of them.

  391. Excellent question, ale wife! And the dictations show times, places, who attended meetings during the time he was on the lam. If an individual collected tithes and then put that cash in his hands while he was running from the FBI…isn’t THAT against the law? All that evidence in the Esplanade and they walk away scot free!

  392. ““I like how Warren has power over PligKid and Street – throw them out on their ear, and they still lick his boots!”

    “”Stamp, PK and Street both left the FLDs on their own accord, PK doesn’t lick Warren’s boots and would be greatly offended if he knew you said that.
    Street doesn’t speak for the FLDS, his rants do not represent the FLDS viewpoint.

    duane said this on June 24, 2009 at 8:34 PM “”


    I meant PLIGGY and Street – I later said this of PK:

    “At least others like PligKid (know) a certified nut when they see one!

    And PK ought to know!

    Stamp said this on June 24, 2009 at 6:16 PM ”

    “Yes Pliggy said he was booted for his porno addiction, Street said he was “Asked to not attend Meeting”

    Both were “HANDLED duane! GONE! BOOTED! SKEDADDLED! SHOO! Whats sad in Streets case is (as he tells it) there is absolutely no rhyme or reason – but then that isnt unusual, if you read the dictations, many BOOTED flds meet in St George DAILY (per the dictations) and they lament “Why me” and Warren doesnt tell THEM he tells his SCRIBE they are going about repenting the wrong way!

    LMAO! They didnt please him when they were members and they dont please him when they are exed.

    I hope THEY are pleased he is in prison!

  393. ““People who wear tin foil hats are mentally ill. You might as well call me “mongoloid” or some other epithet.”

    hmmm, okay, that’s a valid point.”

    Correction, that’s valid except that individuals with Down’s Syndrome are not mentally ill — they have a genetic abnormality which causes various physical and mental challenges. Perhaps it would be more accurate to suggest that people might as well call you “OCD or Clinically Depressed or as having Narscissistic Personality Disorder”. (And this comes from someone who has been labeled with “Schiziod Personality Disorder” which is NOT, mind you, the same thing as Schizophrenia.

  394. I read in Deseret news yesterday that Divorce rates had declined in all states but UTAH!!! Now how bout that?

  395. There are three things which I would like to document:

    1. The names and ages of underage girls taken across state lines to Caliente, Nev.; El Dorado, Texas; Bonners Ferry, Idaho; Sonora and Baja, Mexico; Bountiful, BC; and other places for the purpose of sex.

    2. The names of apostatized men whose property, homes and families were systematically looted by operatives of WSJ.

    3. The names of FLDS businesses which defrauded underage workers such as PK of both legal wages and mandatory Social Security contributions.

    How can the government justify spending fifteen years pursuing anti-abortion activists under RICO, but not investigate these crime patterns?

  396. Dont forger GFNY Ruidoso New Mexico, they have a group there to.

  397. Greetings, please forgive me for not being clear. I conceded the point of young marriages for the sake of argument. Like you, however, I have actually researched as much as possible and agree that there really is no evidence that widespread marriage and childbirth right after menses ever took place. Frankly, it simply isn’t biologically sound practice for humans. Unfortunately, our bodies mature before our minds, even bach when menses rarely occured before the age of 16.

  398. Hi Rebeckah! Good post, always enjoy reading them!

    GFNY

    Also, the feds have raided the Blanding Utah area, and arrested somewhere close to 25 people for looting artifacts.

    Two of the suspects committed suicide, and the latest story on the Trib is that the one Dr Redd, was also involved in a Ponzi scheme.

    Melalueca!

    Ha ha! and the feds drove through Short creek and the child crimes goin on there to arrest these folks. Hatch put this investigation down too, evidently he is uncomfortable with the Feds nosing about his state?

    Whats to hide?

  399. Alamo wants evidence kept from MANN ACT trial

    Associated Press – June 24, 2009 8:34 AM ET

    TEXARKANA, Ark. (AP) – Jailed evangelist Tony Alamo says investigators were relying on old information when they raided his Fouke compound last year and that evidence they seized should be barred at his trial.

    In motions filed Tuesday, the 74-year-old also asks for the names of informants who gave information to authorities. Alamo is charged in a 10-count indictment with violating the federal Mann Act by taking underage girls across state lines for sex.

    The court papers ask U.S. District Judge Harry Barnes to bar to disallow computer data, business records and photographs seized by investigators.”

    snip

    Alamo’s lawyers say at least five years passed between when an alleged victim was sexually abused and the present.

    Information from: Texarkana Gazette, http://www.texarkanagazette.com

    Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

  400. Ruth Stubbs, Jeanetta Jessop, Ruth Cooke, Elissa Walls, Loretta (dont remember her name before she married warren) Jeffs (12yrs old) Merrianne Jessop, Teresa Jeffs, Teresa Steed. There is a start.

  401. Ruby Jessop

  402. Carolyn Jessop would know more since, she and Merril were in charge of The motel in Caliente along with Carolyns father.

  403. Is that the “but she’s 18 now ” defense? I think I’ve heard that before.

  404. Maybe that’s why they hate her so.

  405. Sorry, Rebeckah. I wasn’t reading that carefully since it was late after a long day.

    It is a point I never concede. Because it is fundamental to the apologists’ argument that child marriage was the historical norm.

    Likewise the view that the mother of Jesus was barely more than a child, when all we know about her from Luke is that she was parthénos (virgin). In fact, the Hebrew word ‘almah’ used in Isaiah 7:14 actually means ‘woman who has reached marriageable age’, not ‘virgin’ as it’s usually translated.

    All translation is interpretation.

  406. DD, thanks–I’m starting a file.

    Betty–I expect we’ll be hearing more of the “but she’s eighteen now” defense in the coming months. After all, it worked in re: Ruby Jessop.

  407. “All translation is interpretation.”

    It has been my observation that people who were spiritually more advanced than I are rarely concerned with domination or sex. They focus on how kind people are to each other, and on teaching and nurturing those who come to them for guidance. Only the spiritually immature focuses on their very important place in the great plan. If we really focused just on the sermon on the mount, would that not take a whole life time?

  408. Honestly have to say, in my opinion FLDS are very immature in their spirituality! Im not saying that to be mean, Im saying that because, “most” all were taught a “version” of spirituality but it has strings attached. Like total Obedience (to prophet) NO questioning of the doctrine taught, especially to the prophet.
    They have been taught spiritually that emotions show weakness, yet the night before Christ was to be crucified, HE cried and sweat blood. All most of them know or will ever know is within the confines of FLDS!
    And once they have questioned, or disobeyed, they are excommunicated out into a REAL world in which they then have to search, whether it be through rebellion such as alcohol, drugs. Most who left will admit they did just that.

  409. Test

  410. They also engrain in children, LOVE is conditional on how pure, obedient and worthy they are. Which is the WORST thing you can teach a child, because it manifests FEAR!

  411. My posts are now being censured? Why indeed.

  412. Susieq said this on June 24, 2009 at 9:22 PM
    Curious is Street amd his job is to muddle up the blog with his crap. Ale wife has a very good point. CaJim I am so very
    impressed, but it is lost on Curious Street. Curious your confusing Abraham’s COVENANT with Moses Ten commandments or LAWS? Christ came as the Messiah to fulfill the Prophecy, be thee example following God’s will for us and the Paschal lamb for Sacrifice devoid of any flaw or blemish. Christ fulfilled the laws of Moses and the Prophetic Covenants are not laws, like God’s sacred pledge to Abraham is not a law, you’re mistaken.

  413. Dunno if they’re being censored, ‘Curious’. My first post this morning was moderated.

  414. Yup, Admin’s doing it again. They allow some posts, and selectively cut others, to fit their agenda.

  415. street

    You have got to be kidding. Your MO is to post long pastes that include rude, crude and outright filthy language, then you get banned.

    And you wonder “Why”… Like in “Why did Warren Ex me?”…

    What did the moderators Brooke Adams of the Plural life tell you, or those folks at http://www.texaspolygamy.blogspot.com tell ya?

    We’re CURIOUS.

  416. Susieq said this on June 24, 2009 at 9:22 PM
    Curious is Street amd his job is to muddle up the blog with his crap. Ale wife has a very good point. CaJim I am so very
    impressed, but it is lost on Curious Street. Curious your confusing Abraham’s COVENANT with Moses Ten commandments or LAWS? Christ came as the Messiah to fulfill the Prophecy, be thee example following God’s will for us and the Paschal lamb for Sacrifice devoid of any flaw or blemish. Christ fulfilled the laws of Moses and the Prophetic Covenants are not laws, like God’s sacred pledge to Abraham is not a law, you’re mistaken.

    1.The Law of Moses and the Old Covenant. The law is contrasted with Christ, and it is the old COVENANT LAW that Paul … But if we submit to the old covenant law of circumcision, then Christ is of …www.wcg.org/lit/law/lawmoses.htm

    2. COVENANT LAW) – LoveToKnow 1911: Sep 3, 2006 … Covenant (Law). From LoveToKnow 1911. COVENANT, in law, is the English equivalent of the Lat. conventio, which, although not technical, …www.1911encyclopedia.org/Covenant_(Law)

    3. COVENANT LAW: The importance of covenant law. The means of delegating authority. http://www.lonang.com/foundation/1/f1D.htm

    4. Restrictive COVENANT LAW — Britannica online encyclopedia article on restrictive covenant (law), in Anglo-American property law, an agreement limiting the use of property.
    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/…/restrictive-covenant

    5. WikiAnswers – Who wrote the mosaic COVENANT LAW: Tanakh and Talmud question: Who wrote the mosaic covenant law? And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in …
    wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_wrote_the_mosaic_covenant_law

  417. “Yup, Admin’s doing it again. They allow some posts, and selectively cut others, to fit their agenda.”

    HMMMM is that like when the UT AG put Warren in prison to fit his agenda?

    What IS his agenda?

  418. Ahh, but the post was only 20-lines long, and NOTHING rude whatsoever. It simply proved by research how wrong Suzieq’s post was yesterday at 9:22pm. Just a few quotes from some research.

  419. I’ll post the DELETIONS from this blog, on Polyg Talk, for those interested: [Removed – “Curious” blog reference].

    Thanks

  420. No thanks, street, but its good to know you found a home.

  421. Say how is your relationship with Pliggy nowdays?

    I read where you guys werent really that friendly..?

  422. curious: don’t bother, we don’t want to read your rants here. Why would we go elsewhere to read them. Answer, we won’t.

  423. Unfounded? Your determined ignorance is glaring, my dear. BOTH the time and the poster are cited above (June 25, 2009 at 11:56 AM. I also posted Suzieq’s post, but your blog isn’t allowing my reply, see. I keep trying, and it just won’t post. But my reply can be read at: [Removed – “Curious” blog reference].

    I say, “Your determined ignorance, because you even state that you refuse to read it on the other blog. Why? That’s just saying, you don’t want it here either. We can all see these other posts of mine, but certain replies are simply vanishing. The truth of the FLDS is very hard for some to swallow. They come in need of the heimlich maneuver.

  424. Stamp said this on June 25, 2009 at 12:07 PM
    Say how is your relationship with Pliggy nowdays?
    I read where you guys werent really that friendly..?

    REPLY: Pliggy is a great man.

  425. If you are posting comments with too many url’s in it that comment will automatically be sent to the “spam” folder. Don’t blame it on the moderators if you put too many url’s in your post.

    Curious/Street you have proven yourself to be delusional and more than just a little crazy over and over again on different blogs which is the reason you keep getting banned from every blog you try to overload with your crazy rantings. Try checking out one of the fine mental health facilities in Phoenix, medication may do the trick. Or maybe Ron will fashion you one of his quality crafted tin foil hats.

  426. “My posts are now being censured? Why indeed.”

    Because people usually go to the bakery when they want fruitcake?

    “Yup, Admin’s doing it again. They allow some posts, and selectively cut others, to fit their agenda.”

    Curious, only in the world of the mentally disturbed paranoids is “moderation” an “agenda” issue. The truth is you are offensive and rude and the majority of blogs don’t want you bringing down the tone of their sites. You have your very own section on the polygamy board so if anyone actually cares what you have to say they can go and argue with you there. If you actually want to be heard on other blogs, try taking your meds and toning down the crazies. Just a bit of friendly advice.

  427. Pliggy isnt a great FLDS man though, as obviously neither are you.

    Which is OK. I know, its not for everybody. Warren is making his list, and checking it twice.

  428. “Ahh, but the post was only 20-lines long, and NOTHING rude whatsoever. It simply proved by research how wrong Suzieq’s post was yesterday at 9:22pm. Just a few quotes from some research.”

    I’ll take your word for it, but the fact that you’ve already accused Betty of “immorality” and “evil” simply because her worldview doesn’t fit yours if pretty strong evidence that you are here too trying to pick fights and insult people. You think you know the “truth”; I think you wouldn’t know “truth” if it punched you in the nose. Only the afterlife will prove which of us is right.

  429. Rebeckaqh

    LMAO! And I have never heard in my life someone who compiles their deleted posts.

    OCD overdrive, at least he wasnt headed in the direction of a crowd of ladies!

  430. Instead of a bevy of beauties he owns a pile of posts.

  431. If a person sticks to the Biblical fundamentals in his or her heart, and continue striving to be a saint and apply them in their life, they are indeed FLDS (Fundamentalist Latter Day Saint). The Lord is judging the hearts, all of you. After the scattering, the trial of your faith and repentance, a great gathering with Christ, and baptism into His House.

  432. Rebckah

    We dont need to wait for the afterlife. Streets scriptures are interspersed with his “Twisted Sister” take.

    There is only one person in the world who follows streets thinking and its street!

  433. That in reply to this:

    Pliggy isnt a great FLDS man though, as obviously neither are you.

    Which is OK. I know, its not for everybody. Warren is making his list, and checking it twice.

    Stamp said this on June 25, 2009 at 12:23 PM

  434. Stamp said this on June 25, 2009 at 12:32 PM

    Rebckah: We dont need to wait for the afterlife. Streets scriptures are interspersed with his “Twisted Sister” take.
    There is only one person in the world who follows streets thinking and its street!

    REPLY: Thank you. If I follow my thinking, then I am obedient to Uncle Roy, Uncle Warren, and to the Master Himself, who have counseled the FLDS to “get your thinking straight”.

  435. doesn’t debator move his deleted posts elsewhere?

  436. Finally it appears that Admin didn’t manually delete my post, if the blog automatically deletes posts with a few url’s. There were five, actually, to provide the reader with references to the research. I didn’t know that was rude, or unallowed.

    Then again, the agenda of all certainly becomes clear. But thanks for allowing me to post here.

    Street

  437. Curious, I had some of mine monitored because of quotes from the Quran. I think there is software with wordpress that suppresses on certain keywords. If you think about your post, you probably can figure out which key words caused it.

  438. If that’s the case all Street has to do is limit the number of URLs per post. Requires a few more posts but he can sure try and convince people to go to his websites, written by other spiritually confused men on power trips and the women who follow them.

    Stamp, Street shows very clear signs of schizophrenia. I wasn’t trying to be rude when I recommended he take his meds, I was quite serious. I don’t know if I’ve mentioned it before but there is some very interesting research into the fact that people in the fundamentially and fanatically religious groups have a higher tendency towards mental illness, and schizophrenia is highest on the list, for some reason. It’s very interesting although there’s no way to draw conclusions about causality from the study.

  439. Curious you really believe Uncle Roy, and Uncle warren are sky fairies??? Do you honestly believe those HUMANS who have passed before know what is going on down here on earth??? I sure don’t.
    It wouldn’t be much of a heaven if everyone there was watching and listening what was going on down on the earth!
    Im taking God at his promise,, there will be no tears, no disabilities, no marriage in heaven!!!
    So If Uncle Roy, or Uncle Rulon, are in heaven at all, trust me, they AREN’T sending messages to people on earth.

  440. “Stamp, Street shows very clear signs of schizophrenia. I wasn’t trying to be rude when I recommended he take his meds, I was quite serious.”

    I’m with you.

  441. The seven traits associated with all groups guilty of Spiritual Abuse are as follows:

    1.) Power Posturing

    2.) Performance Preoccupation

    3.) Unspoken Rules

    4.) Lack of Balance

    5.) Paranoia

    6.) Misplaced Loyalty

    7.) Secretive

    Since our friend ‘Curious’ has been ousted from the FLDS Church sect his sensitivity toward anyone acting covertly around him, like removing posted articles, is bound to strike a chord deep in his FLDS upbringing. His hatred and and vehemence against secretive acts taken out of his view or knowledge are then totally understandable given the level of psyche abuse he was raised to expect. Item 5.) above is equally at play for “Curious” because his paranoia is on guard having to live in the outsiders world were Evil lurks in upon him. Trait #2.) Performance Preoccupation reflects his projecting demands of perfection on outsiders around him in a vain attempt to control his Evil environment. The classic trait of 1.) Power Posturing is behavior “Curious” learned from FLDS leadership and he re-enacts by claiming administrators of this blog have trespassed upon his posts, showing a complete breach in his authority. All of these traits are observable within him and his actions will be without improvement until he receives and is willing to seek psychological treatment(s). See Jeff Van Vonderen’s book titled,”The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse”. Saddest trait that I still observe in “Curious” is his adherence to #6.) Misplaced Loyalty wherein without his Prophet’s guidance he attempts to hold fast to the abusive spiritual culture.

  442. On Boot’s blog, did you see “Breaking Video”? It doesn’t show it yet but apparently an attorney for some of the FLDS mothers showed up at the book signing and accused Flora of exaggerating. Little did they know there were case workers there and a CPS investigator that gave that attorney a piece of their minds. Flora did likewise to the attorney as well. 🙂

    Can’t wait to see that!

  443. Betty said:

    I had fun while having sex with my husband. I confess publically to this horrible, biblical immorality. LOL. I am fairly sure that I was not filled with the Holy Spirit, although I did invoke the name of God and a few saints along the way and I WAS downright grateful to both my husband and to God for setting up this whole arrangement to start with.

    Q. What’s the worst thing about being an atheist?

    A. There’s no one to talk to when you’re receiving oral sex.

    **the above joke has been toned down and made gender neutral**

  444. Betty said:

    I was already assigned to Orthodox Presbyterian hell (whatever that is) for not agreeing with Hugh about the superiority of his genitalia compared to mine.

    Actually Hugh the Heretic is going to Orthodox Presbyterian hell also. When you don’t agree with one of their fundamental statements of faith, I’d say they DON’T think you’re one of the elect like them.

    The irony of Hugh’s narcissism is that the guy thinks he can reform an orthodox church.

    In any event he doesn’t play well with others and has had the church discipline process invoked either for or against him.

  445. Ron,

    I have no doubt you are right.

    My religious back ground is kind of varied hippieness mix. Raised a Catholic and educated by Jesuits, I then ran away to live in an Ashram (actually Indian Buddhist, not Hindu, but who’s counting), then joined the silent, east coast kind of Quakers for 5 years madly stuffing envelopes for peace, then I was into Karate for 25 years and did japanese buddhism. Brief excursion into wicca, probably to counteract all the maleness of 25 years of karate. Catholic crisis while my parents died, then went back to yoga. I don’t know what I am now, but I’ve been that way for awhile, maybe 10 years. If you look at the above, there’s a lot of silent meditation in there, some pacifism (hard to say that with a straight face after mentioning karate, but live and learn is better than not learning at all). I should be vegetarian, and I do try, but I love a lamb chop and I’m crazy about a smoked bambi ham.

    If I take one of those belief.net quizes, I come out as Reformed Jewish, Quaker, Unitarian (never even been close to one of those) or Jain (not even sure what that is). I think that translates as “non dogmatic monotheist”.

    But I am very sure of one thing. I have not, am not, nor will I ever be a Calvinist.

  446. Having one’s prophet thrown in prison for sex offenses should raise a red flag, ring the bell, give notice you are on the wrong path.

    People who cant see that and follow the crumb trail toward prison might get some crumbs but what is at the end of the trail?

    Ask the Dirty Dozen.

  447. Ron

    Hugh must struggle keeping all that secret from his wife. I wonder if she has a clue?

  448. Betty

    I can thank John Calvin for stripping me of the title “Christian.” After debating with Calvinists I started telling anyone who asked my religion that I was a “follower of Christ.”

    I dropped that moniker when I began to realize that there is not one unified Christ written in the Bible (thanks in part to Bart Ehrman). I really didn’t want to be the follower of an apocryphal guy who comes to “bring the sword” and says you must “hate your mother and father.”

    I love Buddhism (at least the teachings and not the religious aspects) and feel that the best label for me is Buddhist/secular humanist – I could never buy into the theistic view of god anyway preferring instead the Paul Tillich idea of God as “being.” I do miss the family aspects of the church but am quite comfortable spending my Sunday’s at home.

    So, yeah, I understand where you’re coming from…

  449. Hard to imagine what constitutes an orthodox Presbyterian hell in the 21st century, since it seems to me as if the Calvinists have all left, to be replaced by ecumenicists. Dreary ecumenicists full of good works and sonorous babble.

    As for Unitarians, they would find the idea of ‘non-dogmatic monotheism’ to be utterly too restrictive. And I seriously just had a rousing argument with a Reformed Jewish neighbor who posited the thesis that believing in God is not actually required of good Jews.

  450. This is interesting:http://www.gallup.com/poll/121253/Extramarital-Affairs-Sanford-Morally-Taboo.aspx?CSTS=alert

    A poll which ranked various topics as most morally wrong. Infidelity came out #1 at 92%, followed by Polygamy at 91%. 91% believe that polygamy is more morally wrong than cloning, abortion, gay relations, the death penalty.

  451. No, I definitely believe in God, so I guess that leaves Quaker or Jain. Maybe I should figure out what Jain is. But I think a good Weekly Meeting is probably a lot closer. I can just ignore all the committee this and protest that stuff that goes on with the cookies and tea after, right? Sigh.

  452. Betty

    Having lived in an Ashram, you might find Jainism interesting.

    Actually, I found defining the nature of the “God” you believe in to be an interesting exercise. I don’t necessarily reject an idea of god as “existence,” “being,” or “is-ness.” I do wholly reject the idea of a theistic God. Am I an atheist? Not really but I’m clearly an anti-theist.

    Since Greetings seems to be our philosopher/theologian in residence I’ll rather defer to her.

  453. Ron, Jesus only seems contradictory if you imagine him to be a plastic dashboard ornament spouting off aphorisms (highly suspect in a God). In the phrase you mentioned, he was using a characteristic Jewish form of expression in which statements are rendered in hyperbole. Imagine my neighbor telling his son, “I’m telling you that medical school comes first! If you expect to make it, you better start hating everyone and everything in your life. No family, no friends, no girlfriend—nothing!” (But if the boy ever neglects to call, his father will ask him, “What, are you trying to kill me?”)

    Another example of this is the “let the dead bury the dead” statement in Luke 9. If the young man’s father were actually dead, he would have been buried immediately. The young man was skirting around the point that he needed to wait until after his father died to profess his faith, and Jesus was again answering him hyperbolically.

  454. Ron were you familiar with the “White Horse” prophecy of Joseph Smith? Do you think it is resurrected, again?

  455. Ron, I have the advantage of also having met Betty in real time. I think she might make a good Quaker for the same reason a lot of liturgical churchgoers are drawn to the meeting—at its core it is group mysticism.

  456. Greetings

    I don’t disagree with anything you said; however, I can tell that our views of Jesus disagree. You appear to be well read in this area and I respect the depth of your knowledge.

    I borrow greatly from Buddhism and believe that if I see the Buddha on the road I should kill him.

  457. Ron, if only the Warrenites had grasped that…

  458. cajIM – No, I wasn’t aware of it nor did I realize it’s connection to the “hanging by a thread” metaphor until you prompted me to read a little.

    I will say this: Nothing helps group identity more than a feeling of shared persecution.

    As to the idea of resurrection, I don’t see modern LDS thought as so scary to secular society to justify special persecution. Sure religious zealots of other faiths my try to fight against the modern LDS church, but I don’t see any great threat to the modern LDS church.

    As to the idea of church elders changing things, I know Harry Reid is a converted Mormon and Orrin Hatch is a Mormon by birth. Yeah both have power, but they use that power mainly for their own benefit and somewhere down below is the benefit of the LDS church.

    Bottom line – it’s false. Sure there are powerful Mormon politicians, but in the big scheme of things, they’re not as powerful as they seem.

    It does make for a powerful conspiracy theory. Not quite to the “tin foil hat” stage, but it could get there.

  459. OK Betty

    The collective wisdom has been discerned through the power of the internet….

    You’re a Quaker. Hello, Friend.

  460. Jim, thanks for pointing us to another historical oddity.

    This prophecy starts off, “I want to tell you something of the future. I will speak in a parable like unto John the Revelator…”

    Smith used all four horses of the Apocalypse from Revelation in his prophecy. The white horse is to combine with a red horse in the defense of the Rockies. The black horse is a force of subjugation, and the pale horse is the American people.

    But the horses in Revelation are:

    White horse—Antichrist;
    Red horse—war;
    Black horse—famine;
    Pale horse—death.

    Did he actually mean to identify the ‘church elder from Zion’ as Antichrist, riding in conjunction with ‘war’ to rescue the US Constitution?

  461. “at its core it is group mysticism.” Absolutely. I certainly wasn’t there for consensus based business meetings.

    Jainism IS very interesting. And the discussion on a broader meaning of pacifism, even into what we say to people being violent or non violent is appealing. Although, if I took that seriously, I’d have to give up sarcasm. Hmmmm.

  462. Arrests today in Washington County Utah

    HOLM, BRANDON CARL
    Birth Date: 09/08/85
    Address : 950 N 1800 E, St George, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    23:32:00 06/24/09 Bell, Kyle WCPD

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    41-6a-502(1)a DUI-1st,2nd OFFENSE BM WCJ6 1332.00 1332.00

    BROADBENT, DAVID S
    Birth Date: 03/09/45
    Address : BOX 554, Cane Beds, AZ
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    19:00:00 06/24/09 Other Agency MCSO

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    WARRANT-OTHER WARRANT-OUT OF STATE/ NA MOJP 0.00 [No Payments Made]

    TIMPSON, DEXTER FRANK
    Birth Date: 10/08/86
    Address : 280 E 450 S, Ivins, UT
    Arrest Time/Date Arrested By Agency
    17:57:22 06/24/09 Crouse, Amber WCSO

    Statute Offense Class Court Required Bond Amt.Paid
    DRUG COURT DRUG COURT HOLD DC 5DIS 155.00 155.00

  463. Betty said:

    Although, if I took that seriously, I’d have to give up sarcasm. Hmmmm.

    Don’t do it Betty. Giving up sarcasm would change your fundamental human nature.

    Be one with your sarcasm….

  464. RICO offenses
    Under the law, racketeering activity means:

    Any violation of state statutes against gambling, murder, kidnapping, extortion, arson, robbery, bribery, dealing in obscene matter, or dealing in a controlled substance or listed chemical (as defined in the Controlled Substances Act);
    Any act of bribery, counterfeiting, theft, embezzlement, fraud, dealing in obscene matter, obstruction of justice, slavery, racketeering, gambling, money laundering, commission of murder-for-hire, and several other offenses covered under the Federal criminal code (Title 18);
    Embezzlement of union funds;
    Bankruptcy or securities fraud;
    Drug trafficking;
    Money laundering and related offenses;
    Bringing in, aiding or assisting aliens in illegally entering the country (if the action was for financial gain);
    Acts of terrorism.
    Although some of the RICO predicate acts are extortion and blackmail, one of the most successful applications of the RICO laws has been the ability to indict or sanction individuals for their behavior and actions committed against witnesses and victims in alleged retaliation or retribution for cooperating with federal law enforcement or intelligence agencies.

  465. This section is part of the MANN ACT
    28. -Polygamous marriage Members of Mormon sect whopracticed polygamy and each of whom transported atleast oneplural wife across state lines, either for purpose of cohabitingwith her, or for purpose of aiding another member of cult insuch project could be held guilty of violating predecessor to 18USCS @ 2421. Cleveland v United States (1946) 329 US 14, 91 L Ed12, 67 S Ct 13, reh den (1946) 329 US 830, 91 L Ed 704, 67 S Ct361; Malaga v United States (1932, CA1 Mass) 57 F2d 822. Enticement of girl into another state to contract bigamousmarriage and after such marriage persuading her to live withdefendant in immoral way was no offense under predecessor to 18USCS @ 2421. Gerbino v United States (1923, CA3 NJ) 293 F 754. Conviction under White Slave Traffic Act (predecessor to 18 USCS@ 2421) will be upheld where it was shown that defendant, while”married” to two other women, transported girl from District ofColumbia into Virginia, where they were bigamously married, andthen transported her from Virginia back to District of Columbia,where they had sexual relations. Burgess v United States (1924)54 App DC 71, 294 F 1002.

  466. Please continue on Open Discussion 6

    https://texasflds.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/open-discussion-6/

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