SHURTLEFF LETTER OF INTENT
~ by FLDS TEXAS on June 15, 2009.
Posted in The Evidence
This is the biggest bunch of BS I have seen! I propose that we all meet in Short Creek and have a parade right down Main Street dressed as trashy and scantily as we possibly can! It is an INCORPORATED town, and Rod Parker and weewillie think they can dictate how the public dresses? ROTFLMAO Where is the ACLU when you really need them?
LadySadie said this on June 16, 2009 at 6:15 AM
Mark Shurtleff is the Attorney General for the State of Utah, correct? He is bound to uphold the laws of the Constitution of the State of Utah and the Constitution of the United States correct. How DARE
LadySadie said this on June 16, 2009 at 7:50 AM
How DARE he pubically support a proposal that is an affront to the ideals and rights that this nation was built upon!
LadySadie said this on June 16, 2009 at 7:51 AM
Every law abiding citizen of the state of Utah should be protesting at your state capital and demanding the impeachment of Mark Shurtleff, don’t allow your Attorney General to flush your constitution down the FLDS toilet!
LadySadie said this on June 16, 2009 at 7:53 AM
I agree with your comments in every aspect. Mark S should be ashamed of himself.
chemist said this on June 16, 2009 at 10:14 AM
Its discrimination in the worst form. I thought we had laws against segregation and discrimination??
deputydog1 said this on June 16, 2009 at 11:06 AM
HAHAHAH, Shurtleff says they agree, and then WILLIE says, Hold on!! We don’t necessarily agree with everyting shurtleff has said,, This Whole thing is a “SHAM” and ARizona knows it!!
deputydog1 said this on June 16, 2009 at 11:09 AM
Attorneys for Wisan filed their objection to the proposal with the court on Monday, saying they don’t believe it meets the “legal and ethical” obligations of reforms made to the trust since 2005.
“We’d still like a settlement. We just haven’t seen something we can agree to,” Wisan’s attorney, Jeff Shields told The Associated Press.
Shields says Wisan plans to suggest changes to improve the settlement.
A message seeking comment from Assistant Arizona Attorney General Bill Richards, who has participated in settlement talks, was not immediately returned Monday. A note in the Utah attorneys general’s filing states that Arizona does not agree with the proposed settlement.
deputydog1 said this on June 16, 2009 at 2:32 PM
FLDS in Texas take note that it is illegal in Texas to keep out anyone who wishes to visit the cemetery there on YFZ between something like 8AM-5PM 7 days a week. Tear down that gate. No dress code may be imposed so long as the people are legally clothed. No discrimination allowed. It’s our law.
GrannyToad said this on June 16, 2009 at 5:06 PM
The Fair Housing Act prohibits religious discrimination by landlords, sellers, and municipalities. There is a limited religious exemption, but it is not germane here for several reasons:
1. In order to use the religious exception, the religion cannot restrict membership on the basis of race or color, which the FLDS, in practice, does.
2. The UEP is not a religious trust; it was reformed after it was abandoned by the FLDS;
3. The municipalities of Colorado City and Hildale are not religious entities.
But why wait until the last hammer falls? Arizonans who feel they will be harmed by this agreement can write to:
San Francisco Regional Office of FHEO
U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development
600 Harrison Street, 3rd Floor
San Francisco, California 94107-1387
TTY (415) 436-6594
Utahns can write to:
Denver Regional Office of FHEO
U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development
Denver, Colorado 80202-4801
TTY (303) 672-5248
Greetings from New York said this on June 16, 2009 at 5:07 PM
And for those that would like to inform Mark Shurtleff of your opinions of his proposal:
Or inform his senate campaign committe at:
LadySadie said this on June 16, 2009 at 5:13 PM
What the heck! Tell it to the judge:
Judge Denise Lindberg
Salt Lake County
450 South State St
P.O. Box 1860
Salt Lake City, UT. 84114-1860
Greetings from New York said this on June 16, 2009 at 5:39 PM
When Flora wrote the ACLU they told her they were representing the polygamists alternative lifestyle, and they would [wait for it] “pray for her”.
No joke, she still has a copy of the letter!
Boots said this on June 16, 2009 at 9:29 PM
“How DARE he pubically support a proposal that is an affront to the ideals and rights that this nation was built upon!”
I think I’ve been trying to convey what is, and has been happening for a long time, regarding our Constitution, and their respect for it, in Utah and Arizona.
It is being trampled!
Boots said this on June 16, 2009 at 9:37 PM
Fiduciary sells cows from farm pledged in settlement deal
The first line in the story sent me almost rolling on the floor…
Boots said this on June 16, 2009 at 9:43 PM
Isn’t the Fair Housing Act a part of the wider Civil Rights Act bill?
GrannyToad said this on June 16, 2009 at 10:26 PM
Flora says we should all go up there and wear nothing but our “sacred garments”, that way we won’t offend them.
Boots said this on June 16, 2009 at 10:45 PM
Seriously, Shurtleff is either a complete moron or corrupt as hell. It is embarrassing that he would even propose such a thing and make it a public record with his name attached to it. Now, of course we expect to see this kind of nonsense from Willie – but it is unreal that Shurtleff doesn’t have any more sense than that.
Well, we know the Judge won’t approve it. Last hearing she was aggravated that Shurtleff was trying to do an end around the reformed trust and the plan of distribution the judge already put in place. The FLDS who refused to use the process established by the Judge ought to just be out of luck. They’ve acted like three year olds for the last 4 years by refusing to deal with the fiduciary – they had a method for petitioning the Trust for distributions but they refused to do it. The whole answer them nothing strategy spilled over in the way they interacted with the fiduciary – if they failed to make a claim for benefits because they didn’t like the fiduciary, then tough luck.
Shurtleff’s proposal is unconstitutional and can’t be approved by the judge. The FLDS should not be a party to the settlement because the FLDS is not a beneficiary or a legal title holder or anything. Willie Jessop shouldn’t be there because the Judge already ruled he doesn’t have standing.
The stupidest thing in the proposal is the part about FLDS assuming the liabilty of the MJ suit and agreeing to indemnify and hold harmless other parties. LOL. Nice little trick there, Willie! The Trust (the defendant in the MJ suit) cannot just withdraw itself as defendant and substitute the FLDS. Can you imagine? If someone ever sues me for damages, I’m going to try that – I’ll tell the plaintiff that I just decided not to be a defendant in his lawsuit but Mr Smith down the street has agreed to be sued instead. Oh and by the way, Mr Smith was just discharged in bankruptcy and is judgment proof – and if you do get a judgment against him you have to wait to collect until has paid all of his attorneys , but you don’t mind, do you?
FLDS TEXAS said this on June 17, 2009 at 12:23 AM
In addition to the Fair Housing issues, I’ve been baffled all along that the Attorney General thinks he can limit Elissa Wall’s right to sue.
The other thing is that he wants to specify what property is public in a neighboring state, and limit free speech in a public library in that state. He can’t do either without the approval of the Arizona AG.
Greetings from New York said this on June 17, 2009 at 6:51 AM
This was all in the GRAND SCHEME of things for Shurtleff! Take the trust away, crack down on child abuses in Polygamy, because he KNEW he was going to run for either governor or senate.
He just didn’t realize how long and drawn out all this would be.
Now that he has thrown his hat in the ring,,,(Party officals) have told him to get RID of the mess he started, anyway possible.
This same man who called FLDS “Taliban” is now rolling around in the dirt with them.
Let’s hope Judge Lindberg is wiser and knows the law better than the AG of Utah.
deputydog1 said this on June 17, 2009 at 8:18 AM
Another MORMON senator bites the dust!!
By KEVIN FREKING and KATHLEEN HENNESSEY, Associated Press Writers Kevin Freking And Kathleen Hennessey, Associated Press Writers – Tue Jun 16, 7:01 pm ET
LAS VEGAS – Nevada Republican John Ensign apologized for having an affair with a member of his campaign staff more than a year ago and says he remains “deeply committed” to his service in the U.S. Senate.
In Las Vegas on Tuesday, Ensign called the affair “absolutely the worst thing that I have ever done in my life,” and said he and his wife sought counseling and reconciled.
He didn’t name the staffer or her husband, and took no questions after issuing his statement.
He called the woman and her husband “close friends,” and said that close relationship at a difficult time in his marriage “led me to my inappropriate behavior.”
Ensign was first elected to the Senate in 2000.
deputydog1 said this on June 17, 2009 at 8:23 AM
The only thing Shurtleff forgot to add was “Any FLDS who talks to a black man shall ye forever be banished, and the gifting of a young daughter as a bride shall wave your impact fees”
Good lord I wonder what happened to Mark!
Kiss those Senate dreams goodbye!
Stamp said this on June 17, 2009 at 8:24 AM
The husband of the woman Ensign had the affair with, came to him and wanted MONEY to keep quiet… But Ensign decided to come forth with the truth.
deputydog1 said this on June 17, 2009 at 8:25 AM
What kind of scandal does Shurtleff earn since he got caught in bed with Willie Warren and Parker?
Stamp said this on June 17, 2009 at 9:51 AM
I know y’all don’t believe it…but it wouldn’t surprise me at all if Shurtleff wins that Senate seat, even after this craziness.
That’s exactly how weird things are out there. Electing a U.S. Senator, with a law degree, who has openly conspired in public court documents to deprive some of his state’s own citizens of their basic constitutional rights, would be exactly what I expect from the voters out there.
I’m always willing to be wrong, and in this case particularly, I hope I am!
Truth is, I think you will find little or no outrage at any of this in Utah, except from the polygamy cult survivors.
The things I saw up there, as a Texan and an American blew my everlovin’ mind. I’m not exaggerating when I say the constitution is in some very serious trouble in that part of the country.
You have to remember, there is absolutely nothing you can ever say to these people to make them believe they DON’T have a constitutional right to collect concubines in this country.
Boots said this on June 17, 2009 at 10:05 AM
I think you are sooo right! Mark has proven it, trying to give a 100 mil property and 9500 “Hildale Hostages” over to the control of an imprisoned sex offender.
And I thought my mind was blown when I read Warrens dictations, Marks are more disturbing!
Stamp said this on June 17, 2009 at 10:29 AM
Now take a gander at this..
The “court house”, where they are charging Wisan is in a trailer in Moccassin, Arizona, tucked into a residential area.
The town of Moccassin, Arizona is so small I can’t even pull info for it off Wikipedia. But the judge in the small trailer in Moccassin has already convicted Issac Wyler and sentanced him to 2 years [suspended] prison time.
Roll up, roll up, folks! The Mohave County Polygamist Kangeroo Court in the trailer, in the middle of NOWHERE is open again!
Boots said this on June 17, 2009 at 10:40 AM
Boots I think your close in your assertions over U.S. Constitutional threats, however, these righteous FLDS Church members don’t believe that the Constitution is the Supreme Law of their Nation, it is ruled by God and his Prophet Warren S. Jeffs in their American Theocracy. The Constitution is a good shield in the evil “Gentile” Courts but it isn’t their Supreme Authority. As to concubines, Warren has already spoken very clearly on how he views this subject,”I say, in the name of the Lord, there is no underage marriage in a priesthood marriage, in ‘celestial marriage’. God has the right to rule. The Lord had me take these two underage girls on purpose, to show that I and we, this people, are with Him, with God, not fearing man”. The continued 100% FLDS Church members blind allegiance to this convicted Prophet is their choice and let the legal consequences rest upon all of them and their soon to be incarcerated leaders.
cajIM said this on June 17, 2009 at 10:48 AM
Yeah, they are really making progress in this “running in real time” – “Big Troubled Love” situation comedy.
Stamp said this on June 17, 2009 at 10:55 AM
D. The Proposed Settlement Provides Stability.
Common property such as Cottonwood Park and the Cemetery
will be transferred to a large group of Trust Participants
namely, the FLDS. This group appears capable of maintaining and
preserving such property in perpetuity.
What a lie MARK! The FLDS arent stable, the man you propose to hand it over too has condemned the entire place.
WHAT are you thinking? Or do you just forget to pay attention?
Stamp said this on June 17, 2009 at 11:06 AM
The Feds convinced the Texas Rangers and our representatives to turn over tons of evidence to them. They pretty much convinced Texas that they have a case and will pursue it…no need to prosecute any of the cult women, ‘We’ll take care of it for you’.
Please be prepared to be completely freaked out, and outraged when the Feds close this case up tighter than a freakin’ drum and do absolutely NOTHING with it.
That’s why I keep telling y’all, this is up to the PEOPLE of TEXAS.
The people of Texas are the only thing standing between the polygamist and their innocent children. I don’t want to have to say “I told you so” but our sources are telling us that the Feds are about to close this case, with no plans to prosecute anyone, beyond Jeffs himself, for anything.
If that does happen, my question is simple. Will the Texas people step up to protect these children or not? Will we, like sheep led to the slaughter, lay down our sovereign right to protect the citizens of Texas from this crime?
I want answers. Now that the polygamist residents of Texas have been caught illegally collecting welfare benefits from Arizona the whole time they resided in Texas [AZ has ZERO prosecutions planned], have they all been switched over to Texas benefits?
I think we have a right to know that. Because if they are continuing to break Federal laws within our state’s borders, why would we simply put them on the dole and not prosecute the crime that has forced their family into poverty, produced pedophilia, molestation and child brides, just like the UN said it would?
If we don’t put our foot down, right now, you can just bet we will become the next safe haven in this country for an organized crime family that has ripped the taxpayers of this country off to the tune of MILLIONS of dollars.
And I’ll ask this one more time, folks… If Arizona knows they were receiving welfare benefits from their state, illegally, and has no plans to prosecute ANYONE for it…doesn’t that just SCREAM to you that the state of Arizona actually FUNDED the relocation of these crimes to Texas?
Now we have spent millions trying to protect Texas citizens [the FLDS children] from the crime, and we have been hoodwinked by the Fed into NOT prosecuting the women of the crime family.
Arizona has funded the move of an organized crime family to our state, for YEARS!
I think Arizona and Utah need to write the Texas people a BIG check.
Boots said this on June 17, 2009 at 11:13 AM
Boots,, Greg Abbott is a pretty schrewd AG of Texas. I don’t see him letting this go at all. Personally, I don’t have a clue what the Feds will do, but I don’t see the state Backing off indictments in this case.
At least I hope to God they don’t. Something else I noticed. Arizona is off the band wagon with Utah, they have NOT agreed to the UEPtrust proposal. I don’t believe the proposal can be accepted till all parties involved agree.
Maybe that’s one of the reasons Arizona is refusing to agree, it gives them more time to investigate if FLDS are still recieving welfare from them, and FLDS are taking it to Texas.
deputydog1 said this on June 17, 2009 at 12:03 PM
WACO in reverse
Stamp said this on June 17, 2009 at 12:08 PM
So how many of those FLDS have gotten residency after a year of being Texican?
Stamp said this on June 17, 2009 at 12:10 PM
Right On! Boots I have been aware from the get go into Schleicher County that foisting the FLDS Church upon Eldorado and this county is a criminal invasion, not unseen by both Utah and Arizona elected officials and other employees of those two States. My specific concerns on what I call the ‘Texas Exodus’ is three-fold : First is that this diaspora is going to be used as a template into Colorado, South Dakota, Idaho, Nevada and other regions of Texas. Second is that West Texas neighboring counties to Schleicher County have similar low populations and limited development regulations, so more growth into greater Eldorado sister counties should be expected. Thirdly the proximity to International border with Mexico seems a ‘hidden strategy’ to this Texas Exodus and known Mexican enclaves and ‘Houses of Hiding’ are operated. Teresa Steed’s missing baby is just one of the reasons to site themselves within easier access to an International border. The FBI failed to take appropriate actions in Utah back in the 1980s which lead to the current Utah fight over the UEPTrust and now as the Federal Government fails to act, again, the forming of the Texas Heritage Trust will reenact the whole saga once more.
cajIM said this on June 17, 2009 at 12:11 PM
I hate to burst any bubbles for anyone but here’s the scoop.
Jane Irvine in the Arizona AG’s office, looked Flora right in the face, less than 2 weeks ago, and admitted that they had run the names from the Bishops list at the YFZ through their Arizona DHS system, last year after the raid. She confirmed for Flora that virtually 100% of the women and children from Arizona, on that list, were actively collecting Arizona benefits at the time of the Texas Ranger’s raid, even though most of them had resided in Texas, for YEARS.
When I contacted Buster Johnson, Mohave County Supervisor Dist. III for confirmation, he told me, “It is my understanding no prosecutions are planned”.
That’s what I’m trying so hard to explain to you here…it’s already BEEN confirmed. Arizona has known for over a year now about the fraud, has no plans to prosecute any of them for the crime, and never released any of the information to the public, not AZ citizens and not Texas citizens.
My guess is they think they can keep us all like mushrooms in the dark, and feed us manure all day.
Boots said this on June 17, 2009 at 12:14 PM
Speaking of Arizona or Utah for that matter, how much investigating has gone into matching now known children brought to Texas from either State and their corresponding Birth Certificates. When the CPS Removal first occurred I recall there was a surge of registrations of baby(s) that had been born in Short Creek area and not legally reported. I have to believe that the YFZ Ranch clinic records have to be a virtual treasure trove of unreported and illicit activities within this enclave and then what is going on in the Pringle, South Dakota, Mancos, Colorado or Bonner’s Ferry, Idaho areas, as well. If it is assumed that the Eldorado, Texas enclave is the sole location of abuse/neglect, I think the naivete` of elected State Officials and Law Enforcement is approaching criminal negligence.
cajIM said this on June 17, 2009 at 12:31 PM
Boots, Yes Maam , I totally agree Flds are drawing welfare from Arizona and have been since they started building the ranch in Texas. I also think maybe the reason the women haven’t registered to get welfare in Texas is because Texas will check to make sure they aren’t getting welfare from any other state first.
Plus, in Texas , if a woman has children, and living in the house with a man, and other wives, they will first charge him to pay child support.
And since polygamy is considered bigamy in Texas, Im sure it’s been a deterant to claiming welfare in Texas.
What I don’t understand is why Arizona wouldnt charge back welfare payment to women who have been living in Texas for sevreral years still recieiving payments?
I don’t get that at ALL!!
deputydog1 said this on June 17, 2009 at 12:31 PM
I do NOT understand why Arizona Utah and Texas aren’t doing what Cananda is doing,,, have IRS investigate them!!
deputydog1 said this on June 17, 2009 at 12:33 PM
I dunno, Deputydog, why don’t you contact the biggest IRS office in the country, located in Provo, Utah, and ask them?
Boots said this on June 17, 2009 at 12:38 PM
“Seriously, Shurtleff is either a complete moron or corrupt as hell.”
Why do we have to choose?
Betty said this on June 17, 2009 at 1:14 PM
Boots wrote “Arizona has known for over a year now about the fraud, has no plans to prosecute any of them for the crime, and never released any of the information to the public, not AZ citizens and not Texas citizens.”
But WHY? This makes absolutely no sense to me. Why are they afraid to prosecute the FLDS if they KNOW they have the goods on them? They can’t really be scared of photos of crying children in the news? Is there some financial payoff? I JUST DON’T GET IT.
Betty said this on June 17, 2009 at 1:18 PM
Betty, darlin’, I’ll try and explain what I saw for the almost four years I was up there….
The local, state, and even Federal authorities in Utah and Arizona are CORRUPT TO the CRIME of POLYGAMY.
You can sit here and shake your head all day long, muttering about how none of this makes any sense to you as an American citizen, but eventually you’ll have to accept what I am telling you.
I know this because I know they are corrupt. The mainstream LDS church can SAY all day long that they don’t approve of, or endorse the illegal practice of polygamy, however their ACTIONS, since both states have HUGE Mormon populations, are completely opposed to their words!
The mainstream Mormon church has REFUSED to EVER help the escaped victims of fundamentalist polygamy, instead, literally telling them to “go back home and be a submissive wife”.
Why did the state of Utah develop the “Safety Net Committee” to assist the “victims of polygamy”, and then staff it with 100% PRO-POLYGAMY ACTIVIST, who have yet to help ONE VICTIM to leave?
Darlin, if the American public EVER finds out the truth of the abuses of polygamy, they will never get it legalized here.
It is in their best interest to make sure you don’t EVER know the truth about the practice.
That’s all I’m sayin’, guys. The abuse of human and civil rights in these two states is OUT OF CONTROL.
Boots said this on June 17, 2009 at 1:52 PM
Janet Napolitano is now Secretary of Homeland Security, ExGovernor and ExAttorney General from Arizona, she is well aware of FLDS Church practices and abuses. Democratic Senate Majority Whip Senator Reid, held Senate Judiciary hearings in 2008, promises legislation action in this Senate season. Northern Texas Federal Grand Jury is convened and rumored to be looking at Federal indictments against FLDS Church leaders for Mann/RICO Act(s) violations and prosecutions. Canadian authorities have brought charges for both Bishop Jimmy Oler and Bishop Winston Blackmore for bigamy and broadened the investigation now into welfare and public education fund abuses. It seems to me that the Federal Government is committed to act on several levels to stem this organized crime wave and blatant disregard of existing statutes, inaction is not a viable option with 12 San Angelo Grand Jury indictments covering 27 charges and ongoing investigations pointing to more felony indictments.
cajIM said this on June 17, 2009 at 2:12 PM
I believe you. I still don’t understand. What do they GET out of it? That’s what I don’t understand, what is the benefit?
Seems to me, by letting it be, they get the LDS name smeared in this dirty family laundry. You would think they would prosecute to the hilt just to set a distance between themselves. And I don’t buy the bit about them being related; nobody hates each other quite as much as cousins who have lived in the same county for generations. (I’m a Southern gal, you know?) I keep shaking my head and wondering if it’s somehow about money. Otherwise I have to assume that they all HATE WOMEN, and that makes me very sad.
Betty said this on June 17, 2009 at 2:14 PM
So, on another tack, is it possible for a private citizen (like me) to research these records? How do you get the actual proof out in the open and embarrass the AG office into doing something?
Betty said this on June 17, 2009 at 2:15 PM
caljim wrote “inaction is not a viable option ”
From your fingers to God’s ears.
Betty said this on June 17, 2009 at 2:16 PM
Polygamy is an excuse to break every rule in the book and that includes the Ten Commandments, just ask FALSE WITNESS WARREN.
Stamp said this on June 17, 2009 at 2:24 PM
“I believe you. I still don’t understand. What do they GET out of it? That’s what I don’t understand, what is the benefit?”
Um..becoming a god, with your own planet to rule for eternity, sugar. Aint no other way, according to Joseph Smith anyway.
Mainstream Mormons are taught the well known LDS prophesy that someday the American Constitution will be in danger. We will all elect a Mormon president of the United States, he will decriminalize polygamy, which will then be practiced by everyone living on the North American Continent, thus saving us all!
I’ve often wondered if Joseph Smith and Mohammed were somehow in cahoots, even centuries apart.
Mohammed dedicated his life to studying under Christian priests, and Jewish Rabbis. Then he was visited by a powerful angel, who revealed to him that both religions had a part of G-d’s truth, but had been corrupted. The new “accurate” version, delivered by the angel, included polygamy and child brides.
Joseph Smith dedicated his life to the study of Judaism, Islam and Christianity, claimed he was visited by an angel, told both had parts of the truth but were corrupted, and the new version handed down included polygamy and child brides.
Boots said this on June 17, 2009 at 2:28 PM
Betty my view maybe isn’t as jaded as Boots, only the future will portend the actual events. I sense your impatience and frustration with events to date being very laborious and long timed, but the old adage on the ‘Wheels of Justice’ comes to mind. I believe Texas was tasked with handling the local crimes by the Attorney Generals Office and Canada is bringing charges in a pincer like fashion but the coup d’ grace will be the Federal actions in a, “Shock and Awe” fashion. Events may be awaiting the Senate Legislation, mounting convictions this fall and a loud and clear Press/Public outcry for action or Canadian investigations and charges being more fully broadened to secure the positive outcome of arrests, convictions and incarcerations. Personally, I think frequent blogosphere posters on this FLDS saga have a far greater concern and fear of this secretive sect than they do of even the terrorist Al Qaeda organization. Osama bin Laden seems to reside in a cave in Afghanistan or Pakistan and Warren S. Jeffs is held in Mojave County Jail here in the United States, my vote is to first deal with an outright domestic subversive and his organization, then pursue the international terrorists. This situation, also, pre-dates the 911 Attack of 2001 and holds the priority.
cajIM said this on June 17, 2009 at 2:43 PM
I can assure you the closest I’ve ever come to being a conspiracy theory nut, is my love for X-Files re-runs.
I don’t like the position I’ve found myself in one bit. I’d prefer to have faith in the government of these United States, but after what I witnessed up there for almost 4 years, I just don’t.
I do have faith in the Texas people, though.
I’m not jaded enough to have lost that part of my faith. Not by a long shot!
It is, however, all I do have left.
G-D BLESS TEXAS
Boots said this on June 17, 2009 at 2:50 PM
Heah, Boots I don’t often see parallels drawn between the Prophet Mohammed and Joseph Smith but another parallel was they both didn’t shy at using violence nor force to accomplish their ends, either.
cajIM said this on June 17, 2009 at 2:54 PM
That’s why I’ve wondered about it, sugar!
Here’s the rundown on polygamy:
Restricts a woman’s choice of life partner, travel, dress, education, access to birth control, leads to molestation, and forces women and children into poverty.
Can someone, knowing these facts, please explain the fundamental difference between the polygamy practiced by the Taliban and the FLDS?
Boots said this on June 17, 2009 at 2:58 PM
Boots I would never question your stalwart actions in opposing foreign invaders into your beloved State of Texas. Is the YFZ Ranch to record as a modern day ‘Alamo’ Invasion by an organized group. Things ended up not going all that well for Generalisimo Antonio Lopez de Santa Ana and I believe with Texans like you on patrol it looks to go badly for the FLDS Prophet Warren Steed Jeffs.
Describing you as ‘jaded’ is meant only in the sense of cynical by experience and I wouldn’t argue the point other than to observe that awaiting events will bring the ultimate judgment.
I expect a Texas Cyclone when the trials begin and the months and months of focus will raise a howl heard around the Nation and not just within Texas. Yes, send the bill to Utah and Arizona for their failures to enforce their very own statutes and duplicity which is inexcusable.
cajIM said this on June 17, 2009 at 3:17 PM
I too have compared the events at the YFZ to the Alamo, and insisted thet we must have a San Jacinto now. Those were almost my exact words to Harvey Hiderbran’s assistant when I met with him in Austin, after coming home last year. He told me I turned over more documented information on the FLDS to them, in under 2 hours, than they had been able to collect in the last 4 years. So where is all that AZ and Utah cooperation to help Texas?
I have requested a meeting for Flora and myself to speak to Harvey in person while she is here. Flora has definitely got some things to get off her chest.
::sigh:: Since PR is my game, I’ll be there to do any damage control after she gets done unloading on him. So far, I do consider him a hero in this issue. I just hope he doesn’t let us down.
Yes, Utah and Arizona, if they plan NO prosecutions for the criminal fraud, need to write TEXANS the check for the raid, NOW.
We’re just out here making sure it IS a twister when it hits…at least here in Texas.
Get behind the prosecutions, and demand more of them, especially for the women who allowed this to happen to their children. Every last one of them knows polygamy is against the law, and have made a conscious decision to practice it anyway. I don’t really care what they look like as they are dragged away to a Texas prison. I don’t care what “image” it creates for Texas.
I only care about protecting Texas children from this G-d awful mess.
Boots said this on June 17, 2009 at 3:51 PM
Boots, check out this series of exchanges with Moccasin Justice Mitchell Kalauli in the Mohave County Board of Supervisors’ minutes of April 20, 2009 (item 28, starting on page 6):
Tell me Mitchell Kalauli is not a water-carrier for the FLDS, who do not want a county office with a sheriff’s substation, county attorney, and court anywhere near Colorado City.
Greetings from New York said this on June 17, 2009 at 4:40 PM
Flora is one of thee heroines of this FLDS Saga, give her my highest regards when you see her next. Texas has suffered an invasion by covert and criminal means the masked agenda, stone walling, outright lies, criminal intents and disturbing the peace in West Texas will prove to be a chronic and deviant growth upon Texas itself, if it isn’t dealt with effectively and rapidly. Many times I have recalled the hidden occupancy at the YFZ Ranch, as just a typical ploy of this secretive sect. For months after the FLDS Church’s initial occupancy the spokespersons held to the lie that a hunting reserve was the planned use. Finally, in a show down meeting with Sheriff Doran and Justice of the Peace Doyle a admission that an FLDS enclave was intended but with under 200 residents ever planned to reside there. So it was a lie built upon another lie and they view their treatment as persecution instead of experienced mistrust. Ranger Long in his two search warrants issued for the YFZ Ranch records that, after months of Sheriff Doran being told about 125+/-persons resided at the ranch, that there was probably more than 150+persons the in residence. The 2nd search warrants records that Bishop Merril Jessop recanted his figure and stated that the new count was around 250+/- and the actual count proved to be over 550+residents in Total. This conniving leader lied, then lied and then lied,again. The only complaint on this issue from the YFZ Church is their harping about 439 children were removed but not one word about where they all came from or who was responsible for conducting the masked move-in? Today, overflights of the YFZ Ranch bring comments that the children’s presence is less in outside appearances than even before the CPS Removal. I believe the mass move-in and hidden agenda of the FLDS Church into Schleicher County was planned and executed with highly organized intinerary which was intended to overwhelm local governance and Law Enforcement to provide offensive strategy to evade Law & Order.
cajIM said this on June 17, 2009 at 4:54 PM
We do so appreciate the support. The support of regular Texas citizens means everything to us now.
Yep, I was well aware of what transpired in that meeting. You have to remember that Buster Johnson is the president of the AAAP.
He is under tremendous pressure all the time. Right now his concern is that they will attack him for being associated with the AAAP, and claim that he cannot possibly be “fair” because of his position on our board, and our open opposition to the crime of polygamy.
As ridiculous as it may seem, the majority of people in Utah and Arizona expect polygamists to be treated like everyone else, who isn’t breaking the law, even though they ARE flagrantly breaking the law.
In Utah and Arizona, as far as law enforcement, the social welfare system, legal community, and judiciary are concerned, polygamy is treated as LEGAL.
Polygamists fathers are REGULARLY granted custody of their children, leaving the escaped concubines with NOTHING.
Does anyone see what’s wrong with this picture?
More good word salad from a Mohave County polygamist can be found here: http://220.127.116.11/UnOfficialDocs/pdf/20061571284.pdf
It looks like something DEBATER might have come up with, lol!
I’ll go back to my other analogy of the Meth thing. If a county supervisor wanted to sit on a board that condemend the use of Meth, does this indicate he might not be “fair” to all the Meth dealers?
But that’s exactly how these people think!
Boots said this on June 17, 2009 at 5:36 PM
BTW, in case anyone didn’t know it, Buster Johnson will be the speaker at the AAAP Friends & Survivors Picnic, in San Angelo, TX, on Saturday, June 27th, in Glenmore Park at High Noon. Let’s hope he gets a better welcome to Texas than Sam Brower did, with gooney Dee Jessop.
He will speak on the government corruption associated with polygamy. If anyone should know about it, Buster should. I think any Texan concerned about our state shouldn’t miss it.
Buster’s daddy was born and raised in Brownwood, Texas. His character and courage have never shocked me.
Boots said this on June 17, 2009 at 5:45 PM
I don’t doubt that someone else has answered, I haven’t read all the way through. The reason UT and AZ are happy to let the welfare fraudsters go is that hahahahaha they went to TEXAS. Let TX deal with it, it’s no skin off AZ or UT politician’s noses or inlaws or outlaws noses and that’s just fine with them. Let Texas eat crap.
GrannyToad said this on June 17, 2009 at 11:36 PM
I don’t suppose those ladies voted in Texas now did they, given their AZ residence and all?
GrannyToad said this on June 17, 2009 at 11:49 PM
I respectfully disagree in your assessment of Mohamed. Confusing the way things are now with radicals and the way of history is not fair to Mohamed. First, he married and stayed with one wife for 25 years, and did not marry anyone else until she died. Second, polygamy was commonplace in his time and there were no limitations on it and no responsibilities for the men. By limiting it to four wives, and requiring (at least on paper) that they be treated equally and allowing the women the option of divorce if they are mistreated, he was actually improving their station in life. That’s how things were in 673 AD.
The big difference between the FLDS and the Taliban is that with the Taliban, polygamy is not required for salvation, only tolerated. The fundamentalists require the review of a judge to make sure the man can treat his wives fairly, afford the children, etc….although I suspect the good old boy system works just fine there as here. As practiced, even in the most restrictive areas, polygamy is less prevalent than in the FLDS. Only the richest and the most rural/uneducated practice it today, with a percentage of 8-12 of all marriages being polygamist. The highest concentrations of polygamy outside of Mormons are in sub-saharan Africa and in Hindu India.
Betty said this on June 18, 2009 at 6:41 AM
Here is a “cute” little article on Mark Shurtleff,
LadySadie said this on June 18, 2009 at 8:32 AM
Or this embarrassing as hell revelation
“| The $50,000 Question: Utah’s attorney general explains campaign donations received from company his office investigated for fraud”
Stamp said this on June 18, 2009 at 9:15 AM
I wasn’t trying to “dis” Mohammed, rather point out the facts. I’ve heard way more than once the same justification for the practice of polygamy you’ve repeated here.
The problem with that is that there have been many societies devastated after wars, which bounced back just fine without the practice of polygamy.
Some mainstream Mormons will try to tell you the practice was instituted to “care for widows and orphans”. The problem with that is at the time they were practicing polygamy in the early Mormon Church, the ratio of men to women in the American territories was tilted towards way more men than women. At that time in history, you could have been a toothless one legged woman and still have been able to find a husband. That was never the reason for polygamy. I have a hard time believing that Mohammed’s reasons were any different either, especially when he took a 9 year old bride [waited until 14 to consummate I think].
As I have pointed out before, I come from a line of women who were left behind to see Atlanta burn, and most of their men never came home. Somehow, even after all the devastation; polygamy was unnecessary to rebuild the American South, post WW II Europe or any other impoverished and destroyed society.
Polygamy is about the slavery of women. As far as the modern practice being limited to men wealthy enough to treat all the women fairly, I think my friend in Iraq, Yanar Mohammed, would get a good laugh out of that.
Here are two comments she has recently made about polygamy in the Middle East:
“Although polygamy was about to end in the modern Iraq, the political mess of the new millennium has introduced us into a new age of politicized misogyny. The new mutations of Islamism into an uncontrolled beast has made most feminists and egalitarian of the Middle-East lay low.
A few of us are still determined to stand against them and tell the whole world that we, the women in Iraq, reject polygamy, paedophilia (of female children), and submission.”
“In a total control of governmental and non-governmental mass media, Islamist ideologists brainwashed generations into the idea that females are deficient human beings with an evil urge to disgrace and dishonour. Therefore, they should be restricted into a narrow zone lest they bring shame and filth upon the innocent unsuspecting patriarchs at home. The same ideologists who hold the binding veil in one hand, hold another unreserved banner in the other hand which assures the males’ biological need for more than one sexual partner and tries to polish legalized polygamy with baloney testimonies of “‘…being fair among wives when it is too difficult”.
None of these misogynist ideologists mention the human catastrophe which befalls the female and children population in an Islamist city. In the religious city of Najaf, south of Baghdad 20% of the adult female population are abandoned wives with no income. They are second, third and fourth wives of men who had taken off for other women. Their husbands do not care to divorce them or to spend on their wives and their children. In the “holy” city of Najaf, masses of destitute women and children roam in the streets and may manage to live off the charity of religious institutions which had justified their abandonment and poverty in the first place.
The Islamist ideologists do not feel compelled to justify the tragedy of tens of thousands of women and children of a polygamist culture. They continue to pump a woman serves man ideology to the young generations to perpetuate the males’ misogynist practices and the females’ submission to misogyny as part of faithfulness and godliness.”
I kinda figure she knows way more about the effects of polygamy than any of us do.
My question still stands, since polygamy is proven to restrict a woman’s choice of life partner, travel, dress, education, access to birth control, leads to molestation, forces women and children into poverty, and virtually always produces Child Brides….what is the fundamental difference in the two?
Polygamy is polygamy is polygamy from what I can tell, worldwide, regardless of the religion used to justify it.
Boots said this on June 18, 2009 at 9:21 AM
Boots, I didn’t mean at all to justify polygamy only to say that I think fundamental Mormonism is worse in some ways because of the spiritual requirement aspect. And the way it is in the Quran and the way it is actually practiced are not particularly similar. Then, culturally, things like genital mutilation in Africa and ‘honor rape’ in Pakistan take it to a whole new level. I think no matter what the good intentions of a religion, if there are not checks and balances to power, it’s going to go towards evil over time. The disproportion of power is exactly what is wrong with polygamy and why duane’s view of one big happy orgy is so annoying and inaccurate.
Betty said this on June 18, 2009 at 11:30 AM
I think it is also interesting to note that although polygamy is supposed to make prostitution extinct, it has the opposite effect.
Betty said this on June 18, 2009 at 11:31 AM
Boots the biggest difference of the two forms of Polygamy by Islam and the FLDS is the first caps the total number of wives at four-at a-time and the other starts with three-at a-time, to enter the celestial Heaven, then encourages an unlimited of wives past the initial three? Pretty big difference, by my count Winston Blackmore has enough wives to enter the highest Heaven over seven fold and Warren Jeffs over 25 fold, I guess gluttony isn’t a sin in the bedroom?
cajIM said this on June 18, 2009 at 4:05 PM
What I’m trying so hard to get everyone here to see is the human rights abuse of women and children associated with polygamy. I’m not looking for the nuances between the two religions.
Forces women and children into poverty: Yanar and the UN will tell you Muslim polygamy has impoverished thousands of women and children. The welfare statistics on FLDS members shows them getting $8 in benefits for every $1 they pay in taxes. We’ve documented one Arizona “family”, which collects upwards of $36k a month in food stamps and cash assistance alone…Hmmmm…all turned over to the man in charge, too.
Restriction of choice of life partner: Both groups choose for the woman who she will be “given to”.
Restriction on dress: One puts women in a veil/Burqa, the other a garment/prairie dress.
Restriction on education and career: Both groups regulate how much, if any education females will receive.
Restriction of access to birth control: FLDS completely forbids it, and Muslims tell their concubines when/if they are allowed to get/use it.
Restriction on travel: Muslim women are never permitted to travel unaccompanied. If raped by a stranger, when a woman is unescorted by a direct male relative, they are punished for the rape. All travel by FLDS women is approved by the males in control.
Molestation of children: Yanar and UN says it happens more in polygamy, FLDS claims it never happens at all, despite testimony from former members/escapees that it is rampant.
Child Brides: Muslims, yes. FLDS, yes.
That’s the point here, not the differences in their religions, but the remarkable similarities of the results of the practice is just the same.
Boots said this on June 18, 2009 at 4:25 PM
The Court’s intent is to give beneficiaries their homes.
FLDS or not FLDS. No dif.
What anybody does with it after that is their own concern. They can re-sell it, give it to Warren, give it to the lost boys, whatever.
THE PROBLEM is that the Warrenites refuse to take title. So since the Trust cant give it to them, and Warren isnt a bene of their home and cant legally take title in his name or FLDS name, it goes in litigation circles.
The big fear among FLDS is that they dont have the faith amongst themselves to trust ownership being given by all to Warren.
And while thats a reasonable fear, it shouldnt cause them from losing their homes in his sacrifice.
But hey, its just what we see happening.
Stamp said this on July 27, 2009 at 5:51 PM
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