Open Discussion 4

Continued from Open Discussion 3

~ by FLDS TEXAS on June 15, 2009.

369 Responses to “Open Discussion 4”

  1. Unjust my Butt Duane. Every woman , girl and young man who left FLDS had good reason, but because you never lived in an enviroment like that, you don’t even have the compassion to understand WHAT they went through.

  2. AG’s office files proposal to end litigation over polygamous trust land
    June 15th, 2009 @ 8:32pm
    By Ben Winslow
    SALT LAKE CITY — The Utah Attorney General’s Office has filed a proposal to end massive litigation over the real estate arm of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

    The proposal calls for a lot of land in the border towns of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz., to be returned to the polygamous sect.

    In a letter of intent and a proposal obtained by KSL NewsRadio on Monday, the Utah Attorney General’s Office said it would like to see a pair of farms returned to the FLDS. Some land on the outskirts of town would be handed over to non-FLDS members.

    “FLDS will complete the survey and division expeditiously,” the letter said.

    The attorney general’s proposal also calls for the town cemetery and a park to be returned to the FLDS.

    Ex-members and non-members can have “reasonable access to visit graves, but conduct and dress to be in compliance with FLDS standards.”

    A library would also be built in town, but anything visible from outside would have to meet “FLDS standards as determined by the Bishop.”

    The proposal is meant to settle litigation filed by FLDS members over the reformed United Effort Plan (UEP) Trust. In 2005, a judge in Salt Lake City’s 3rd District Court took over the trust over allegations that FLDS leader Warren Jeffs and others mismanaged it. The judge appointed a fiduciary, Bruce Wisan, to manage it.

    For years, the FLDS were relatively silent as the once communal property was dissolved in favor of private property ownership. FLDS members ignored the changes and rules instituted by the fiduciary. Then they sued, arguing the reforms violated their right to freely practice their religion by consecrating their property.

    A “stand down” was initiated after lawsuits when the fiduciary sought to sell some land to pay outstanding bills. The FLDS claimed the land was prophesized to be a temple site.

    The UEP Trust controls homes and property in Hildale, Colorado City and Bountiful, British Columbia in Canada.

    The proposal calls for Wisan to be replaced, and a neutral advisory board made up of appointees by both FLDS and non-FLDS members. “This shows our best efforts,” said Paul Murphy, a spokesman for Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff.

    A judge must ultimately sign off on the proposal, but Wisan has already objected, arguing in court papers that it violates the reforms enacted by the courts when the trust was taken over. The Arizona Attorney General’s Office has also objected, ex-FLDS members also have concerns over the proposal.

    “It’s all slanted towards the FLDS,” said Katie Cox, who lives on UEP land and is on a court-appointed advisory board for the reformed trust.

    For their part, FLDS members said in a court filing that they essentially agreed with much of the proposal. “We’re very close to agreement with the Utah Attorney General’s Office,” said Rod Parker, an attorney for FLDS members.

    The FLDS also paid $192,000 to the courts on Monday, as required by a judge for occupancy fees and housing costs. Attorneys said it was a good faith effort to keep negotiations ongoing.


  4. What a bunch of crap. Shurtleff has completely lost his mind.

  5. New post with the settlement proposal documents:

  6. This proposal sounds very reasonable, the flds haters get some property on the outskirts, not allowed to roam the streets in the central part of town half nekkid throwing rocks and taunting FLDS families taking evening strolls and visting the parks…good to see Shirtleff coming to his senses, I’m sure the FLDS voters will show their appreciation come election time if this deal goes through.

  7. the advisory board needs to be 85% FLDS and 15% non-flds to accurately reflect the demographic makeup of the towns.

  8. And they paid the $192,000 smackaroos, good for them…shows their good faith.

  9. duane: “not allowed to roam the streets in the central part of town”
    I cannot bekieve you said this. You think it would be good to forbid non flds from being able to walk through the streets of town?? If the flds try to keep other people from the public strrets and walkways they will be sued for discrimination. I hope they do what you suggest. It would bring the AZ AG and the feds down on the flds like a ton of bricks.

  10. If the apostates and flds haters don’t like it, then they can sell their property back to the FLDS, take their wad of cash and move to saint george, fredonia, or some other place where flds haters are welcomed. Heck, buy a foreclosure in Las Vegas, plenty of those to be had.

  11. If they are complying with FLDS dress code, they can roam the streets as a long as they behave and refrain from throwing rocks.

  12. Duane what your saying is if I wanted to walk down the street in hilldale or colorado city I need to put on a prairie dress and have a couple underage daughters married to adult men tilthe my property and submit to all men. WOW that wont fly they will be in federal court with so many lawsuits against them they wont see the light of day for years to come. Anybody can walk down any public street dressed as they like if the FLDS child molesters dont like it they can stay inside there houses.

  13. That sort of bigoted discrimination ain’t legal in the US and hasn’t been for decades.

  14. I think duane really does not believe what he wrote about how non flds people should dress and behave in the Short Creek towns. He is just trolling. He keeps on about people throwing rocks at plygs, but has not and cannot provide documentation of that.

  15. What next, Willie Jessop for Sheriff?

  16. Ale wife, no I can’t confirm that they are throwing rocks and dressing skimpy, but that is what has been reported and not all are engaging in such behavior. However, Shirtleff stating the area is in “near civil war” and FLDS requesting they dress appropriately lends credence to such reports. The FLDS is not requiring them to wear prairie skirts, however they want them to be modestly dressed.

  17. duane, let’s think abou this. The FLDS and Shurtleff are in favor of this and EVERYONE else, including the other state’s AG, is against it. AND it goes against previous court decisions. But you think it’s reasonable, without any analysis that I can see. Yeah, whatever.

  18. The streets and walkways are public areas. As long as you do not violate state nudity and exposure laws, you can dress however you want. A church can regulate dress codes for their own buildings, etc, but not for public streets. The flds need to get a grip.

  19. They cannot extend their theocracy out into the real world.

  20. Discrimanation is illegal in this country Duane, you nitwit twit!

  21. So, someone other than FLDS driving through town, that lives in another state, should wear prairie dresses and wear their hair like Flds, the clones??

  22. The streets and walkways are public areas. As long as you do not violate state nudity and exposure laws, you can dress however you want. A church can regulate dress codes for their own buildings, etc, but not for public streets. The flds need to get a grip.
    I’ve seen nothing in the proposal that regulates what people wear on public property.

  23. Alin: Please explain that to duane who seems to want the non flds to conform to a dress code when they are on the public sreets and walk ways.

  24. Read item number 6 alinsura

  25. Non flds can visit the cemetary as long as their conduct and dress is approriate… What does the say?

  26. It says that if your Grandparents, parents or other relatives are buried in that cemetery and if you are not an flds member in good standing; your chances of placing flowers on their graves are nil to none. That is what it means

  27. I agree Chemist, how can they do that?

  28. Also unbelievable is having the flds Bishop approve the window displays of the public library. The library is to be staffed by people from the county. That is, the displays that are visible from a public street/walkways. Sounds like a conflict between church and state to me. These people are way out of touch with reality. See Brooke’s blog for her summary of the proposal that includes this

  29. Check out this link

    The Mormon’s Golden Idol Moroni was hit by lightening and now is a BLACK Angel. Oh the irony! :~)

  30. I read about that Flora,, I didn’t realize Mormons had idols on or in thier churchs?

  31. Hmmmm, so the FLDS think they can restrict access to public areas based on articles of clothing. (hahahahaha!)

    Makes me wonder if I can sue my Homeowner’s Association — the yard-mowing neighbor three houses down (beer-belly, hairy back) offends my *religion* by not wearing a shirt.

    I’ll let you know how that goes ~~~ 😉

  32. Flora the comments on the Moroni story are a riot! LOL.

  33. Flora it could mean that Moroni is a Nubian? We all know who’s in charge of lightening, so it could be interpreted to mean the ‘Endtime’ is canceled? Some biblical scholars have stated that Moroni may have been an apparition of the Prince of Darkness, now there’s proof.

  34. You put ANY huge Metal sculpture on top of a building, its like a lightning rod! Maybe it’s a sign?? LOL

  35. Interesting article I received and it is the only notice or reference in the media I have seen … Anyone else see this? Interesting that it was in a FEMENIST publication. Makes me shudder. LOL

    Also, NO mention of AMERICAN Childbrides just America’s INVESTMENTS?…. Hummmmm! Imagine that. I guess it is something though.

    June 15, 2009

    Legislation to Eliminate Child Marriage Passed in House of Representatives
    The International Protecting Girls by Preventing Child Marriage Act of 2009, an initiative to end child marriage in developing countries, passed in the House of Representatives on a 235-187 vote last week as part of the Foreign Relations Authorization Act.

    According to Betty McCollum (D-MN), author of the original bill, the legislation affirms that “child marriage is a human rights violation that undermines America’s investments in foreign assistance to improve women’s and girl’s education, health, and economic status.” McCollum’s original bill, which is adapted in Section 1111 of the Foreign Relations Authorization Act, calls for the Secretary of State, acting on behalf of the President, to research the ongoing practice of child marriage and develop a strategy to address it.

    Child marriage remains a common practice in rural and impoverished areas in many countries, with 100 million girls expected to marry in the next ten years, according to the United Nations Population Fund. Child brides often have few or no educational opportunities, heightened pressure to reproduce, and lower long-term reproductive health.
    Media Resources: Betty McCollum Press Release 6/10/09; H.R.2410; H.R.2103; United Nations Population Fund

  36. They can restrict dress on UEP property, that is what I should have said.

  37. Do 16 year olds count as “child brides” if they legally marry complete with parental consent or does the term depend on the age of the other partner?

  38. duane dude? Flds don’t live in Saudi Arabia, and they aren’t a sovergien country. They have NO right to enforce a dress code when people come to town. Sorry bubba,, won’t happen!

  39. 3rd degree rape accomplice charge in Texas, for any parental permission given, that later proves to be into a polygamous marriage, duane. Do you really think the Judge reviewing an underage marriage to a FLDS Priesthood member in his twenty(s) or thirty(s) is going to get approved, even if it’s only the first marriage?

  40. CaJim, I was assuming mongamous marriages. Anyway according to wiki, a “child bride” is generally someone under 15.

    deputydawg, they just want to stop agitators who wear skanky clothing for no other reason than to antagonize flds members…to be more blunt, they are doing this just to eff with them and start sh_t!
    They don’t have an issue with casual clothing that most of us wear on a daily basis.

  41. duane: “They don’t have an issue with casual clothing that most of us wear on a daily basis.”
    Are you Willkies assistant now, speaking for the flds. Glad you joined up with them.

  42. duane, on every interview living in twin cities that have been interviewed on tv in person,,, are dressed just like normal people. Ive yet to see short shorts, or even shorts! Most who live there and aren’t flds any longer, wear modest clothing, you IDIOIT!

  43. They could have a boot at booth ends of town offering costumes and hairspray.

    SCA Hospitalers sometimes do that (sans hairspray of course) at medieval events so as not to offend “medieval locals” by looking out of place during the event. Yes. Day and night. Free.

  44. I don’t know why but I can’t quit laughing about this:
    Fiduciary sells cows from farm pledged in settlement deal
    The heifers are gone — and that has put a snag in a key element of a proposal aimed at settling disputes involving a property trust once controlled by a polygamous sect.
    The Utah Attorney General’s Office and attorneys for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints learned Monday via a footnote in a court filing that the fiduciary managing the trust had sold young cows at Harker Farm.
    The footnote, in a document filed by attorney Jeff Shields on behalf of Bruce R. Wisan, noted that the trust’s cash crunch had been eased “slightly” by the sale, which an FLDS attorney said he was told generated $360,000.
    FLDS TEXAS said this on June 16, 2009 at 10:13 PM (edit)

  45. Good bye heifers, now they don’t need to feed and water them, that costs $$

  46. Could that be a hint of things to come?

  47. Same reason I couldn’t…somethin’ about mentioning a polygamist’s heard of heifers is just too dang funny not to laugh out loud at;)

  48. duane said this on June 16, 2009 at 12:11 AM

    “This proposal sounds very reasonable, the flds haters get some property on the outskirts, not allowed to roam the streets in the central part of town half nekkid throwing rocks and taunting FLDS families taking evening strolls and visting the parks…good to see Shirtleff coming to his senses, I’m sure the FLDS voters will show their appreciation come election time if this deal goes through”

    We can all see what the constitution means to you, Duane.

  49. duane asked:

    Do 16 year olds count as “child brides” if they legally marry complete with parental consent or does the term depend on the age of the other partner?

    Here’s a question for you.

    Do 16 year olds count as “rape victims” if they tell their “spouse of the day” NO and they are forced to have sex anyway but its done with their parents permission?


  50. Well, it’s obvious that the FLDS priesthood really likes the heifers.

  51. One legal wife, and 5-10 prostitutes! Face the fact duane, these little girls are being used and sexually abused and each man is a “PIMP! with the word GOD behind it.

  52. Deputydog,

    Duane really likes to use his example of a “dude” living with a bunch of “babes”, who ‘cares for them all’.

    The problem in his little analogy is that we have positive proof the polygamists don’t support all their “babes” and children. They let the taxpayers take care of them.

    Few men can financially ‘care for’ more than one woman and three children. That is just a no-brainer. So claiming that you love and ‘care for’ [meaning provide for] all these women and children, while you let the taxpayers foot the bill for your “alternative lifestyle”, is disingenuous at best and an outright lie at worst.

  53. Yeah, I’m still waiting for him to be “morally outraged”.

    He’s over there thinking he wants to be in la-la land with a bunch of babes.

    When you stick your head in the sand and don’t face facts and only take survivors stories of abuse at ‘FACE VALUE’, you show to the world you are unable to process information and proof in a logical mannner & prefer to live in ignorance.

  54. Yep, like I said before, there is a difference between being stupid and ignorant…and I won’t accuse him of being “stupid”.

  55. I’ll be the first to say I had no idea polygamy was going on to this extent. I did not know the history of Mormons or the off-shoot groups. I started with a completely open mind and have reached my conclusions & opinions by reading, researching & thinking about the issue until I’m exhausted.

    If Duane would do the same, and THEN POST, I would think he would show a better understanding of why we are all so offended by the abuse of the women and children.
    There is no way you can read the stories, look at the websites, the blogs and think this is just a peaceful group being persecuted for their religion.

    What a bunch of crap.

  56. On the face of it, the settlement proposal sounds fair to me.

    The real financial crisis to UEP is the way Wisam is running things so as to create expenses and a source for his own fees.

  57. The sooner Wisan is replaced, the better.

  58. Yep, Mississippigirl, what you said, lol.

    Muslim women understand exactly what is at stake here in the U.S. We are their last, best, brightest hope, for putting a stop to the abuse of polygamy, which they have experienced up close and personal, for ages now.

    Just close your eyes for a moment and think about what Muslim American women will start to experience, right here in America, if polygamy is ever decriminalized or legalized in the U.S.

    You can’t even legally immigrate to the U.S. if you intend to practice polygamy. That’s one of the questions they make you answer before you can even get in to our country.

    Now, if legalized, do you really think Muslim American men will deprive themselves of such a tempting “lifestyle choice”, especially if the U.S. government has already proven they will be more than happy to foot the bill for it?

  59. Modern Islam is turning “thumbs down” to the practice of polygamy today. The limited existence of polygamy in Islamic nations is at either ends of their societies, either affluent sheiks who can afford the discredited lifestyle or poverty poor and uneducated whom seem to practice polygamy out of economic and resource poor existence. Emerging Middle Easterners are not endorsing polygamy but rather well educated and progressive Islamic women are supporting International Court ruling and efforts to outlaw it’s acceptance and practice. Polygyny is waning in the Islamic World not thriving and certainly not growing as a viable form of marriage.

  60. He’s over there thinking he wants to be in la-la land with a bunch of babes.

    That is really not true..honest! I think having multiple wives would be a major pain in the a@@, No, polygamy/polyamory doesn’t float my boat. But if someone else wants to give it a go, more power to them.

    When you stick your head in the sand and don’t face facts and only take survivors stories of abuse at ‘FACE VALUE’

    Like I said before, I don’t doubt that much of what the “survivors” wrote in their books is true or their honest intepretation of events, but it is their story, not everyone else’s in the religion.
    Here, this is an email by an FLDS mother sent to a favorite blogger of mine and not just because of his flds posts.

    I recently discovered your blog (in spite of the fact that us FLDS women supposedly don’t do that kind of thing). I want you to know that I really appreciate your support even if you think that we’re treated like cattle. I promise we’re really not but if I can’t convince you otherwise, oh well.

    I guess what I’m trying to tell you is something that I heard awhile back: All Indians walk in single file….At least the one I saw did. As similar as we all may seem to someone looking at us from the outside, everyone of us is so individual and unique. I can tell you that the things I experience in my lifestyle aren’t always what everyone else is experiencing or doing. It’s like I tell my children about “outsiders” . “They are the same as us. They have nice people, and they have mean people. They have honest ones and liars. They have everything we have and so don’t always judge them by one mean person calling you a “plig” in a very mean way. Even though the ugly can sure make an impression, I’ve met more nice people than not.”

    Even if I don’t make a good impression on you, I sure appreciate your honesty in it and I appreciate your support of the Constitution and true law and order. Keep up your good work and thanks for being a little of a sounding board for me.

    This post by an FLDS mother contained more far wisdom than anything posted on this site (FLDS Texas).

    I hope Boots gets her opputunity to debate with an FLDS woman.

  61. CaJIM,

    Here is an excerpt from the last email I got from my friend Yanar mohammed in Iraq:

    In a total control of governmental and non-governmental mass media, Islamist ideologists brainwashed generations into the idea that females are deficient human beings with an evil urge to disgrace and dishonour. Therefore, they should be restricted into a narrow zone lest they bring shame and filth upon the innocent unsuspecting patriarchs at home. The same ideologists who hold the binding veil in one hand, hold another unreserved banner in the other hand which assures the males’ biological need for more than one sexual partner and tries to polish legalized polygamy with baloney testimonies of “‘…being fair among wives when it is too difficult”.

    None of these misogynist ideologists mention the human catastrophe which befalls the female and children population in an Islamist city. In the religious city of Najaf, south of Baghdad 20% of the adult female population are abandoned wives with no income. They are second, third and fourth wives of men who had taken off for other women. Their husbands do not care to divorce them or to spend on their wives and their children. In the “holy” city of Najaf, masses of destitute women and children roam in the streets and may manage to live off the charity of religious institutions which had justified their abandonment and poverty in the first place.

  62. Duh duane the reference,”…I appreciate your support of the Constitution and true law and order” some more of that worn out FLDS automaton double-speak for thinking polygamy is legal? We have specific laws that state that bigamy, instead of being ‘true law and order’, is actually a felony and a crime in all 50 States. There is no call for nor attempt to legalize bigamy or amend our U.S. Constitution. You know the practice of polygyny is illegal and your idiotic perspective that it is a lawful or Constitutional right is whacked. The Hole in the Wall Gang lived in a remote area that could be more easily defended and unwelcomed posse’s could be avoided. The reason for the FLDS enclave double fencing, watchtowers and remote locations is for the very same reasons, aren’t they? Yep, ‘true law and order’ is FLDS double-talk for our version of the Constitution and not the Supreme Courts rulings on the subject, get a grip duane.

  63. Boots very informative insight into Islamic polygamy and the real story, I can see how you count Yanar as your friend. The acceptance and endorsement of Polygamy as an accepted and broadly practiced institution in Mormonism back in the 1800s has a similar history of never reaching a majority acceptance, even within its own religious organization, several branches of Mormondom back East schismed over this doctrine. True that many LDS Church members may trace ancestorial roots back to polygamy but equally true that the LDS Church today seems firmly resolved to disavow polygamy in actions and that fact has caused the last decade to go against fundamentalists entirely. The FLDS diaspora into Texas, Nevada, Colorado, Idaho and South Dakota is proof that the message to Short Creek has resonated with the FLDS leaders. The proverbial handwriting is on the wall but as Utah effectively drives off the FLDS Church it concurrently foists the problem onto Sister States with untold of costs and consequences. To me this is particularly repugnant and irresponsible of both Utah and Arizona.

  64. duane, I don’t beleive for ONE minute that email was from any FLDS mother!! It might have been from an FLDS supporter, but not a mother.
    By the way, Im sorry but I can’t stop laughing about the heifer story in the trib……

    Im sure thats the way Flds is also run,,, Warren gives a wife to the Highest Bidder, just like they do heifers.

  65. duane, I don’t beleive for ONE minute that email was from any FLDS mother!! It might have been from an FLDS supporter, but not a mother.

    deputydawg, I don’t believe for ONE minute that this statement I just quoted in italics above, was from you!! It might have been from an anti-FLDS supporter, but not from you.

  66. Do I care duane, what you believe? HELL NO!!!

    But I don’t believe you have any conception of what Abuse is or means, but you will justify it happening to children , just because? No other reason.

  67. I hope she does too, Duane, the first question being “Why should we let you continue BREAK THE LAW by practicing polygamy?

    Why do you need welfare if everyone is well taken care of and provided for?

    They are growing their food on the ranch and still need food stamps? Their trust is worth how much???? (before it was taken away) and how many families have we read about where there was NEVER enough food, the houses weren’t finished and the families were told to pay higher tithes to Warren all the time?

    For the men, well, they had an eighth grade education! Exactly what job enabled these under-educated men to provide for their families?
    That’s right, construction, but geez even the little fellas were doing construction. Not really impressive that you can only do a job that your 10-12 year old qualifies for.

    And it’s not JUST THEIR STORY when they are stating facts about other members, the way of life there and who runs what. It’s not a story, or a fairy tale, it’s a nightmare.

    And since you just discredited us all by saying her post contained far more wisdom that anything you have seen here, why don’t you just go back and blog over there?

    Because to be compared to a woman that has been given limited to no choices in her life besides which color of dress to wear and practically no education beyond junior high, I don’t put much stock in what she has to say.

    When I see them going to college (the women) and they are working out in the real world inter-acting with us, I just might give her statement more credit. As it is, she is a parrot being told what to say. and she has been from birth. or you know, her family will get kicked out if she’s not ‘KEEPING SWEET”.

  68. I think it is important to ask, when examining the claims of happiness among Mormon polygamists, why polygamy is waning in countries in which it has been practiced for thousands of years. Where they are most aware of it and it’s trade offs, where women grew up with it….why do they chose something else? My answer is – because they now have a choice. Pure and simple. I would not ask a mormon polygamist whether or not she was happy in her life style, but whether or not she would chose it if it were not required for salvation. Her ‘happiness’ may come from the expectation that she is doing God’s will. If that were removed, she might pack in an hour. In fact, many of the apostates state that their decision to leave came when they decided that they would rather reside in hell than spend eternity with this same abuse.

    Increase in divorce over polygamy in Jakarta:

    This article concludes that women are rejecting polygamy because they are better educated and have economic independence.

    Slow changes in Africa, but again based on a withdrawal from agricultural based economy and more education for women:

    In this article, which is about strengthening Islam by moving away from radicalism, quotes a woman:
    ‘The threat of being replaced by another wife “is in the back of the mind of every Muslim woman… that makes women accept a lot of abuse because of the threat that her husband will get a second wife.” The lack of trust that polygamy creates hurts relationships between men and women and also hurts the children of these relationships.’

    Another islamic woman talks about the ‘fruit vendor logic’ of polygamy, in which a man compares changing women to eating a different fruit every day:

  69. duane

    “That is really not true..honest! I think having multiple wives would be a major pain in the a@@, No, polygamy/polyamory doesn’t float my boat. But if someone else wants to give it a go, more power to them.”


    Ya ever try giving cocaine smuggling a go? Works for some, not so much for others. BTW Cocaine smuggling and Polygamy are both illegal and both land people in prison.



    “I hope Boots gets her opportunity to debate with an FLDS woman.”


    HA she has been traveling with one! You nut! Who better to tell of the FLDS than an FLDS woman not afraid of the dinkhood and their threats?

    Or would you rather her talk to those “Logotomy Smilin’s Keep Sweeters”..?

  70. “Lobotomy Smilin’ Keep Sweeters”..?

    Y-know, the kind that text daddy for answers?

  71. Betty, Boots & Mississippigirl you gals are just rippin’ it up today, brains and beauty make a deadly combination.

  72. LOL, Stamp! Yeah, I wonder if the Feds raided a meth house, but found all the children in it clean, unabused and well cared for, if they would agree to place the child in the custody of another Meth dealer?

    Do you even know where the last remaining YFZ child in Texas custody is NOW? She was sent to foster with an FLDS polygamist family in UTAH.

    The survivors out there were completely heartbroken by that development. People practicing polygamy, against FEDERAL LAW, have been given custody of a TEXAS CHILD!!!

    Who are the TEXAS CPS representatives RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS???????

    You can just bet your boots I’ll find out and post their names.

  73. The sooner Wisan is replaced, the better.

    Celia said this on June 17, 2009 at 10:20 AM

    Being the outspoken critic that I am I must disagree on this. Are you suggesting that Wisan has not done his job in regards to the UEP Trust? While I do not agree with everything he has done I also must point out that he has done a pretty damn good job on the whole.

    Trying to work with a bunch of liars and sheep would get to anyone and yet Wisan keeps going in his efforts to protect a HUGE part of the UEP beneficiarys, which are ex-flds. Just because many of us have chosen not to claim any benefits does not mean that we will not stand up and fight to ensure Cousin Willie doesn’t get control.

    Watch out Mr. UT AG, You are walking a very tall cliff with your advocacy of Organized Crime.

  74. Oh The HONOR of polygamy is KILLING me!

    Polygamist wives accused of double-dipping
    Published Friday June 12th, 2009

    Ottawa going after two Blackmore ‘wives’ for baby bonus payments

    VANCOUVER – The federal government is going after two of the women connected to accused polygamist Winston Blackmore for child benefits it alleges they were not entitled to receive, according to documents filed in Tax Court of Canada.
    It is demanding sisters Zelpha Chatwin and Marsha Chatwin repay Canada child tax benefits and B.C. family bonus payments.
    The two women are among 19 who were allegedly in a polygamous relationship with Blackmore, who was charged with polygamy in January.
    The government has asked Zelpha Chatwin to repay about $24,000 that was allegedly paid out over three years earlier this decade.
    She received $6,611.66 from July of 2001 to June of 2002 on the basis that she was married or living common law, had eligible children and family income of $31,608.
    But after reassessing Blackmore’s finances, the family income included rose to $309,003, which in effect disqualified her from receiving the child tax benefits and family bonus payments, the government stated.
    She claimed the family income was $40,653 in the next year. But the government calculated the family income at $568,404, which once again disqualified her from receiving benefits.
    Similarly, the government sought repayment from her sister Marsha Chatwin based on a recalculation of Blackmore’s income.
    However, the arrangements with her were further complicated by a change in family relations in September 2006.
    Marsha Chatwin transferred her children into the care of another person and no longer had any dependents. It was not clear from the court documents what happened to the children.
    The case against the Chatwins is separate from a tax case filed against Blackmore, whom the government alleges under-reported his income in the years 2000-2004 by more than $1.6 million.
    Blackmore’s unconventional family relationships were set out as “assumptions” in documents filed in the tax case.
    Zelpha Chatwin had a daughter named Doris on Sept. 13, 1995. About 10 weeks later, Marsha Chatwin had a daughter named Darla.
    Blackmore also had children with the women six months apart in 1997, and six months apart in 2001.
    Over the years, Zelpha Chatwin had five children with Blackmore; Marsha Chatwin had five.
    Meanwhile, on the polygamy charge, Blackmore has asked B.C. Supreme Court to dismiss the case, but if it proceeds he said the government should pay his legal bills.
    The court is to hear that application starting June 29.

  75. Stamp, It would rather rewarding to watch Boots get her a@@ handed to her by a “Logotomy Smilin’s Keep Sweeter”. Oh believe me, she would get crushed in a debate…no doubt about it. Read the editorials in the Canadian press, the arguments against polygamy are pathetically weak, “moral values” is the best that they can do, and with gay marriage and all, an utterly worthless argument.

    I just got finished reading a blog by a young happy Christian polygamist wife, very fascinating read. It repulses me to think about what you and your gang would do to these people if you got the power.

  76. Shirtleff has finally come to his senses.

  77. Do you even realize how hard it is for ALL of us here NOT to call you names, Duane?

    “It repulses me to think about what you and your gang would do to these people if you got the power.”

    Let me help you get the picture, Duane. I want you to picture both men and women prosecuted, tried and convicted for the CRIME of breaking our laws down here in Texas.

    I’ve done told ya and told ya, don’t come down here and expect to break Texas laws with impunity. Prison is for law breakers, and they’ve broken our law.

    See, Duane, I ALREADY HAVE THE POWER. It’s called the LAW.

    But after geting to know you, I can see how that would repulse you.

    As for an FLDS or polygamist woman whoopin my behind in a public debate? Bring it on, bubba, where are they? I don’t see a line forming to meet that challenge…and it has been out here for MONTHS and MONTHS, so excuse me if I don’t brew a pot of coffee, bake a cake, and wait for them to show up to my party.

  78. duane,

    everytime you have linked us to some blog about happy polygamist wives, you know what? They weren’t. They were wannabees.

    Someone whose arguments frequently use phrases like “lifestyle thang” should not critique the logic of others. I’m just saying….

    I’m not so much concerned about moral values as civil rights. And I’ve said that hundreds of times. It’s not about sex. It’s about POWER!

  79. I’m thinkin about putting on my daisy duke shorts and going to the FLDS library, to check out a book? Anyone want to come with me?

    And don’t you worry about Boots and the gang, Duane. We’re doing just fine. Go visit you polyg wann-a-be’s.

    Boots and Flora are busy right now, waiting for an FLDS woman to come forward or call and say she wants to debate.

    Boots is ready, Flora is ready, I’m certainly ready and so is everyone else on the board. You let us know now, ya hear?

  80. oh yeah, one more thing.

    No “KEEPING SWEET” in a debate.

    Bring it.

  81. duane

    “Stamp, It would rather rewarding to watch Boots get her a@@ handed to her by some “Lobotomy Smilin Keep Sweeter”

    WEll, its been over a year and not only hasn’t there been any ass handing by the demure subjugated skirts, YOU get YOUR a$$ handed to you daily.

    You must be familiar with it by now!

  82. Shurtless is in BIG WHAMO trouble,,, His campagin bid for senate is gonna be cut short. He is being investigated for contributors and donations by the wrong peeps to his campagin. He’s in pretty deep ca-ca.

  83. duane, yep been over a year, and the money pit for FLDS is running out. FLDS members are tired of being forced to pay more and more and eat less and less.

  84. Hey DD, you got a link to something about the investigation you could share?

  85. Well, this was interesting.


  87. Does anyone know if Bradley Parker of the Seigfried and Jensen Law firm in Salt Lake City is related to Rod Parker? Seigfried and Jensen donated over $40,000 dollars to Shurtleff’s campaign.

  88. LadySadie here is a picture of Bradley Parker, its possible they could be brothers, they look alike

  89. Nah, Bradley grew up in Boulder, Colorado and didn’t get to Utah until BYU.

  90. Cajim, this may be a good read if you want to educate yourself on the nature of true constitutional right

  91. Duane,

    We’d all probably take reading list recommendations from David Duke before we ever listened to you.

    The last time you recommended someone it was that flake Nalor, who waxes on about every evil in the world being tied back to the 19th Ammendment, and how giving women the right to vote was the end of civilization as we know it…

    Oh brother!

  92. Boots, I don’t remember posting that article, do remember reading it, regardless of the source, it was a well researched article.

    So do you think OJ simpson was innocent merely because the detective who found the damning evidence was a racist?

    Suppose a KKK member found the body of Drew Petersons wife stuffed in a barrel, does the fact that he is a racist matter one iota?

    Boots, you are in serious denial, Flora has brainwashed you and the “choices” that you now make are not authentic “choices”, pleae seek help and perhaps “deprogramming” sessions by an expert on cult mentality. Sometimes I can’t help but feel sorry for you. IMO, most of the dreck who post on this site know that what they say is garbage and just get a kick out of seeing thousands of people getting beat down and spat upon. However, I’m convinced you seriously believe the Flora narrative and that polygamists are nothing but murdering, baby killin, money grubbing and child abusing dirtbags whose inbreeeding has lowered their IQ’s and are therefore genetically inferior to us “normal” folk.

    Plese get help before it is too late.

  93. As usual, Duane, the only hate speech on this board comes directly from you, none of us.

  94. duane: I really think you do not believe the illogical, hypocritical garbage you post. You just post that junk to get people riled up and responding to it. A pathetic ploy to get attention. Consider asking your wife if you can have a dog.

  95. ale wife: I agree with you. No one could sincerely believe that carp he posts. Just trolling to get people fired up. If we just ignore him, will he go away? We can only hope.

  96. duane the CESNUR article is written by a female attorney, named Jean S. Wiseman, and she is not the council selected by the FLDS Church but rather Gerald Goldstein. Her opinion is mostly in applying the law and existing statutes and a whole ‘helluvalot’ of Monday morning second guessing. You need to take up your infatuation with Ms. Wiseman with Willie and Company because they obviously chose someone else, a man and not a woman, to represent them. Duh duane don’t tell me to read something that doesn’t broach Constitutional arguments. Maybe you need to read it so at least you know it isn’t truly about Constitutional arguments, at all? Wiseman argues that the search warrants shouldn’t have been issued because the ‘legal standard for evidence’ wasn’t achieved but that standard isn’t required? The overturning of removing the children is rehashed but the children were returned, excepting Merrianne Jessop Jeffs, again nothing about Constitutional arguments. duane Judge Walther’s ruling will tell the tale and not Jean Wiseman’s legal review, it’s irrelevant. Ms. Wiseman even stupidly claims the CPS failed to follow the Texas Legislature’s guidelines but the legislator just sent AB1440 to the Governor to broaden not limit or censure the CPS. So Wiseman’s view and opinions are really not based in reality, just her own abstract legal opinion. I can see why her legal review counts so much with you, after Goldstein’s attempts are denied, this can be your new Legal Champion, but Willie isn’t going to chose a female to defend him and she practices in Tennessee not Texas! The ‘Pervasive System of Beliefs’ include the specific indictment charges, like underage marriage(Felony), Statutory Rape (Felony), Accomplice to Rape(Felony), Bigamy(Felony) and IntraState transport of a minor for sex(Felony).

  97. Yes, caljim, I got about one page into the article and she was quoting someone named “Sara Steed” that there was no proof that the mothers were going to submit their under aged daughters to sexual abuse. Obviously, the writer did not do her homework. There was proof before, during and after of that and a lot more. The basis of this article is that some other event in 1980’s did this, ergo the raid on YFZ was improper. Kinda Silly. Wonder what the folks at the conference thought?

  98. The group that was targeted in the Island Pond incident originated in Chattanooga, TN. The writer of the article is from Chattanooga, TN. Allegations of mind control and child abuse persist to this day. They routinely deny medical care, immunizations and education to the children. They are strictly communal and have a caste system of ‘sheep’ and ‘shepherds’ (their words, not mine).

    Interesting coincidence, yes?

  99. A video of the founder of 12 tribes speaking in 2006 about how physical punishment is good for children.

    When the spanking stopped, all hell broke loose….apparently he thinks that we can cure violence with violence.

  100. Another coincidence. There is a discussion of the Island Pond Raid on the “Truth will Prevail” website. So duane does not do his own research. But we knew that.

  101. Bingo, in only about 15 minutes of digging I found out….drum roll, please…..Jean Wiseman is a MEMBER of 12 TRIBES! Note on the right “Vermont Public Radio Interview with member Jean Planko Wiseman recalling the 1984 raid” So she was not only a member, she was involved in the raid (possibly a child?).

    Not exactly unbiased.

  102. Child labor violations, 2001:

    They call their exmembers apostates also.

    This is interesting….Eddie Wiseman, second in command in this group…first wife died of uterine cancer, a long painful death without medical care. The group then attributes her death to lack of faith on her part, the fact that she spoke out against the leader of the group 10 years earlier, etc. Within a year, Wiseman marries the woman who was his lawyer in 1983 after the raid. Her name? Jean Swantko!

    Another round of allegations of child abuse in MA in 1994. It flounders because former members refuse to testify in court and CPS mishandles the evidence (sound familiar?). A child in a French settlement of 12 tribes dies at 19 months weighing only 10 pounds, the second child in the community to die in less than the year. The child had a congenital heart ailment and had never had any medical treatment.

    from this website:

    Here is another quote “The “apostle” of the group, Elbert Eugene Spriggs, essentially has a “direct pipeline” to God and no real accountability.”

  103. Sorry for dominating the conversation, but I woke up at 5 AM EDT and couldn’t go back to sleep. I used the time to research the 12 tribes group.

  104. Betty and Jim: Are you saying that duane posted a reference that was misleading and not relevant to the flds situation? Why am I not suprised.

  105. This is a little off topic, Our local news reported this morning, that out at the coliseum where all the district high schools are having thier livestock and rodeo this week, it was reported that letters were found on people’s windshields . In essence it said, the person is a muslim and they hate all jews, christians, and then treatened to blow up a bus load of children.

    Now that’s scarey!!!

  106. DD

    Did you see the movie “Crossing Over”..?

  107. Wow DD!
    What part of the country do you live in?

  108. My guess is he’s ticked off that y’all aren’t more hospitable to polygamy out there.

    You know us evil Jews and Christians who let our heifers roam free and all…

    One of the safe houses we stayed in recieved an anonymous package in the mail two days after we left. It was a box with nothing but a rock in it. Written on the rock was “John 8:7”.

    Needless to say the FBI and Texas Rangers are on it. It was a clear message of “We know where you live”. The Rangers have already figured out the source, for how they knew the name of the person we were staying with, and it wasn’t because we were followed.

  109. Threatening leaflets at Expo Center

  110. Chemist I live in the south. Just heard on the news they have called the FBI in to investigate…

  111. DD and Boots: Thanks for the additional information. Glad the FBI and most probably DHS will be involved. You simply have to take threats seriously, whether they come from people like Dee Jessop or a radical islam group.


    Jean and Ed Wiseman, cult leaders

  113. Chemist,

    Yeah, and in my case, since I’ve decided to go after polygamy, regardless of who is practicing it, I just tick them all off.

    As you can tell, I’m not exactly into the whole “Keep Sweet” thang.

    Duane would love it if the AAAP were simply going after the FLDS, since he wants so badly to paint me as an intolerant “hater”, of innocent cheese making, bread baking rural folk. It must drive him bonkers that I group them right in there with the Muslims, catagorized not by religion, but by their crimes against human beings, namely women and children.

    You’ll notice that he hasn’t offered to publicly debate me or take on the challenge column in a Texas news publication I was offered.

    After all, wouldn’t he be the perfect candidate to do it, since he doesn’t practice the crime himself, and only advocates for the crime?

  114. Defender of the faith
    The Boston Globe Magazine/March 12, 1993
    By Sally Johnson

    Jeanne Swantko now known as “Havah” and her husband Eddie Weisman known as “Hakam”
    Ten years ago, Jeanie Swantko left her job as a Vermont public defender to join Island Pond’s radical Christian community [aka “The Community” and “Twelve Tribes”]. Today, she uses her legal skills to defend the church against its critics.

    Jeanie Swantko was asleep in an upstairs room in a community household early on the morning of June 22, 1984, when the pounding awoke her. She could hear people downstairs: the frightened voices of parents and children, the commanding voices of Vermont state troopers. Police ascended the stairs, and a trooper burst through the door of her room, a long flashlight in his hand. “Get up and get dressed,” he told her. “We’ve come to take the children.”

    For months, state officials had been investigating charges of child abuse against Northeast Kingdom Community Church, a radical Christian community that had settled in Island Pond, a rural hamlet close to the Canadian border. The group had been accused by estranged spouses and concerned neighbors of striking its children.

    But its members had been refusing to cooperate with the state, contending they were being persecuted for their religious beliefs.

    Disregarding state law, the church refused to file birth or death records; neither would it give the names of children when state officials came to question its members about the charges. Frustrated and embarrassed, senior state officials, including the governor at the time, Richard Snelling, had decided to raid the Island Pond households just before dawn, round up all the children, and examine them in an effort to document any abuse. By noon the next day, a judge had declared the raid unconstitutional and sent the children home [they were never physically examined]. That morning in June went down in Vermont history as one of the great debacles of modern law enforcement.

    No sooner was the raid over, however, than word of Swantko’s presence on the scene began to buzz around the state. Swantko was a well-known public defender in Vermont and was admired for her strong feminist principles. What was she doing visiting a group of God-fearing communards whose women covered their heads and promised to obey their husbands?

    Ten years later, Swantko, 44, is a visitor no longer; instead, she’s a believer. She is married to an elder of this group, which is now known as the Messianic Community, and is a lawyer at the forefront of the group’s new expansionist phase. By her own choice, she has stepped out of 20th-Century America to enter an insular world of radical Christianity where the only truth is laid down in the Bible, and life’s only purpose is to prepare mankind for the Second Coming.

    Today, Swantko has little interaction with the outside world, except in the courtroom and through newspapers; she doesn’t watch television or listen to the radio, and she reads little but the Bible. What legal work she does is on behalf of the community. In accordance with the Scriptures, she dresses plainly and says she obeys her husband.

    She also defends the church’s method of punishing disobedient children with thin, flexible rods [balloon sticks dipped in a hardening resin], a practice based on the passage in Proverbs telling parents that if they “spare the rod” they will spoil the child. Adults strike children, usually on the hand, as a correction for misbehavior. The important point, she explains, is that children understand that the correction is offered with love. The church also believes that parents should praise far more than they correct.

    How and why Jeanie Swantko came to join this nation of those she believes to be God’s chosen people is a tale rooted, to some extent, in the story of her generation. Many of the community’s elder members were hippies who had reached the end of the line, who had tried drugs and communes and rebellion and found them all wanting. The Messianic Community is the place where the social revolution in the early 1970s found God.

    Though Swantko herself never dropped out, she did adopt her generation’s belief in helping others. Born in 1950, Swantko was raised near Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania, the daughter of religious, politically conservative, middle-class parents of Polish descent. Swantko recalls that her father, who died in 1993, “drove junker cars for years just so I could attend the finest Catholic girls’ schools.”

    She attended Chatham College, in Pittsburgh, where she roomed with Barbara Harland. Harland, now of New Canaan, Connecticut, remembers that Swantko was passionately committed to leftist causes even then. “Jeanie was always naïve, a bleeding-heart liberal to the core,” says Harland. “During college, she tutored in the ghetto. She was always involved with the underclass.”

    Swantko graduated from Chatham in 1972, earned a master’s degree in social work, and moved to Vermont. She worked for a variety of low-income advocacy and social service programs around Rutland, then decided that a law degree would serve her clients better.

    She met Paul in February 1977. “We started living together almost immediately,” he says. “Right from the start, I was impressed with her energy, her can-do, no-limits outlook on life. She’s smart, and she’s thoughtful. She was always open to the possibilities of life.”

    By 1983, when Swantko was assigned to defend Wiseman on a charge of child abuse, she and Paul had bought a house together near Stowe. She was working out of the public defender’s office in Newport, which had jurisdiction over Island Pond, headquarters of the Northeast Kingdom Community Church. “I almost didn’t take the case, because it was a case of child abuse, and I’d seen too much of that already,” Swantko says. “But as I pored over it in my soul, I realized I didn’t know these people. I only knew what I’d read in the press.”

    She began to spend nights at Island Pond to better understand what these people were about. She and Paul discussed it endlessly. “The community clicked for her,” he says. “The people reached out to her and touched her.”

    Swantko herself recalls the “terrible mental anger” of the time she spent coming to her decision to join a group of people who do not, as a matter of faith, watch movies or television, listen to secular music, or ready any books other than the Bible. But the most difficult issue, she says, “was the decision to obey God and give up control of my life.”

    She once asked Wiseman to explain the community’s beliefs about the role of women. He explained the disobedience creates dysfunctional family relationships, that the right ways is for children to obey their parents, for women to obey men, and for men to obey God. She listened quietly for three hours, then rejected his explanation. In fact, she says now, “I hated what he had to say.”

    In the end, what convinced Swantko was not the words but the “life that I saw. Men regularly and routinely did piles of dishes without resentment, cared for children, changed diapers as if it came naturally, were gentle, and asked the opinions of their wives before making a decision.”

    If the decision to join seemed natural and right to her, it stunned those closest to her. Although Paul understood her spiritual longing, he was devastated by her departure in the fall of 1985. “It wasn’t so much a surprise as it was a trauma,” he says, the pain still evident in his voice. “We were very close. It took me at least five years to get over it.”

    Recurring allegations of child abuse have kept Swantko busy defending the community. Last spring, she took up the cause of Rosemary Lavin, whose visitation rights with her six children were being challenged by her former husband in Rutland Family Court. Stuart Lavin argued that community discipline practices were abusive and said he did not want his children exposed to them. In the end, Rosemary Lavin won joint legal custody of the children, who were placed in the physical custody of their father.

    Then, in May, came the Hyannis cases in which members of five families were charged with abusing nine children. Chief Justice Francis Poitrast, of the Massachusetts Juvenile Court Department, says all the cases have been dismissed because “there was no evidence.”

    Two teenagers involved in the Hyannis dispute, Charity Gregoire, 16, and Michael Gregoire, 13, were also among those brought to court in the Vermont raid 10 years ago. In the interim, both have voluntarily returned to the community to live with their mother.

    In fact, most of the children who have gone to live with parents outside the community have returned over the years, a fact Swantko points to as evidence of the rightness of their way of life. It is certainly the “rightness” of that life that drew Swantko initially and that has kept her within the community for the past decade.

    “In the community, we’ve found the remedy for sin,” says Swantko. “We know that by clinging to God we can fix what is broken in the rest of the world. I’ve never been happier in my life.”

  115. John 8:7
    So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

    That is probably the best passage in the Bible.

    Boots, it wasn’t a threat but a message about hypocrisy.
    Did you throw the stone?

    I doubt it was FLDS.
    Since you are Jewish and single, this site may be right up your alley.

  116. Duane would love it if the AAAP were simply going after the FLDS

    Actually, I’m glad you are targeting all polygamist and not just FLDS.

  117. You’ll notice that he hasn’t offered to publicly debate me or take on the challenge column in a Texas news publication I was offered.

    Boots, Only a practicing polgyamist, especially a female, would have the credibility to make a debate worthwhile.

  118. More power to her for finding her “truth”, as long as they aren’t practicing polygamy, breaking laws [I question not reporting births and deaths] or otherwise abusing their children, go for it!

    Not reporting births or deaths in any state is against the law. This is something the FLDS do constantly.

    As a matter of fact, after the 2004 documentation of their cemeteries in the adult and baby cemeteries, they decided to go mark a bunch of graves.

    The cemetery was redocumented in 2007, and lo and behold some people showed up in their cemetery there, who we have copies of their death certificates…and they are listed as being buried in a completely different county. Hmmm…do you think they were just visiting the other cemeteries, and decided to magically relocate themselves to Colorado City? Or, do you think they ran around throwing markers up, to make it look like they actually keep track of their dead people?

    Who knows? The FBI, Arizona and Mohave County all claim to have “looked into it and found nothing wrong”. Funny thing is, they don’t have any documentation of an investigation at all. I guess they all walked around and said, “Yep, its a cemetery with dead folks, nothing wrong here”….just markers for bodies listed as being buried someplace else…oh well.

    And remember parents at the YFZ trying desperately to get Arizona to issue birth certificates for many children who had none, years after their birth? At least Arizona was nice enough to refuse them. They had to apply for Texas birth certificates after that.

  119. Duane, we already know it was FLDS, and so do the Rangers, thank you very much.

    And the contents were way less important than the real message, which is that they wanted this person to know they know where this person lives.

    You’re Gunao Loco, bubba, and everyone here can see that.

  120. Not reporting births or deaths in any state is against the law. This is something the FLDS do constantly.

    Which means of course, they can’t qualify for welfare or vote.

  121. It means they’ve committed MORE CRIMES!

  122. I think not getting medical help for your children is child abuse, and they openly admit to that. Eventually, they will end up in the courts with a case that sticks.

  123. I can’t think of much more hypocritical than duane quoting scripture and then giving an ethnic/sexual slur in the next sentence. What a nice guy, don’t you want him arguing for YOUR church?

  124. Ive lost track of what duane is even talking about? He goes from one topic to another all in a paragraph. One thing I do know, is Duane thou doest protest to much!

  125. duane is talking about casting the stone? duane who has cast a gravel pit of stones?
    Yes, the same guy who calls people with differing views haters, KKK, ole hags,etc. duane, who directed other posters to a virus site? That same duane who directed people to a KKK site ran by his buddies. The duane who accuses anyone critical of the flds of wanting to lynch them, throw rocks at them, etc; in spite of absolutely no evidence to bolster those stupid claims. Duane who thinks its all right for a religious group to dictate how people dress when they are on a public, county funded road.
    Never have I seen such hypocrisy!!

  126. DD. I fully understand and appreciate your difficulty in trying to follow duane’s logic or lack of logice.

  127. ale,,, gotta remember duane and pliggy are buds!! LOL

  128. DD:
    Yes, they make a well matched pair, LOL. Won’t put down what they are a pair of. Supply your own name.he,he.

  129. HAHAHAHAHHA!!!! Compost? Manure?

  130. Betty The New England Institute for Religious Research (NEIRR) has a website at ‘’ with a expose on the Twelve Tribes and their member cult attorney, with pictures, of Jean Swantko Wiseman and her husband Elder Eddie Wiseman. Basically, the reason for all the references to Island Pond in 1984 is, like the Short Creek Raid in 1952, their religions claim of persecution. They have many parallels to the FLDS Church including their very own Prophet, one man leadership and belief that we are living in the ‘Endtime’. No wonder duane just is infatuated with this group. Twelve Tribes believes that the lifting up will only occur for Americans residing East of the Mississippi, so sorry duane that only includes BillM and Child McBryde(maybe they’ve been holding back on us). Anyway check out Jeans wordrobe modern day folk hippie with bandana, have to be modest, you know.

  131. The website has a alphabetical cult group index buttton to select and the twelve tribes is listed under “M” for Messianic Communities, once on the Twelve Tribe page, click on ‘Pictures’ for both Elder Eddie and Jean Wiseman.

  132. Specially hardened balloon sticks. Right. No problem there.

  133. So what if Duane is one of Pliggy’s friends? I am also one of Pliggy’s friends.

    Pliggy is warm and friendy, kind and caring. He has always been polite and courteous to me — something tha most of you have not. Pliggy is also a decent, hard-working man. He is loyal to his family and to the polygamous lifestyle in which he was raised. He says he “loves Warren like a father.” Pliggy truly cares about the FLDS children. After all, he fathered some of them.

    If you people took the time to get the know the FLDS and ex-FLDS instead of prejudging them, you would realize that there are good people who belong to the FLDS. There are also good people who are former FLDS members. I am also acquainted with a young woman who voluntarily left the FLDS, and I like her very much.

  134. April Day, polygamy is a crime.

    Like you, I have met many seemingly “nice” people who choose to commit crimes. I’m sure plenty of people who liked and trusted Catholic Priests were shocked to learn about their crimes.

    No matter how “nice” they are, they’re still just criminals who need to be prosecuted for their crimes.

  135. The issue is not that duane is pliggy’s friend. I am not sure they even know each other The issue for me is duane’s hypocrisy. Talk about casting stones. He has flamed almost everyone on these boards.

  136. ale wife,

    It’s quite amazing isn’t it? The man can’t see the forrest for the trees about anything. 19 identifiable bone breaks in a 5 year old’s body and he wants to know “the source”, why? So he can send them an anonymous rock in the mail and claim it “isn’t a threat”?

    Just look at the words he has attempted to put in my mouth last night!

    “Boots, you are in serious denial, Flora has brainwashed you and the “choices” that you now make are not authentic “choices”, pleae seek help and perhaps “deprogramming” sessions by an expert on cult mentality. Sometimes I can’t help but feel sorry for you. IMO, most of the dreck who post on this site know that what they say is garbage and just get a kick out of seeing thousands of people getting beat down and spat upon. However, I’m convinced you seriously believe the Flora narrative and that polygamists are nothing but murdering, baby killin, money grubbing and child abusing dirtbags whose inbreeeding has lowered their IQ’s and are therefore genetically inferior to us “normal” folk.”

    Has anyone here EVER heard me say any such things?

  137. “They have many parallels to the FLDS Church including their very own Prophet, one man leadership and belief that we are living in the ‘Endtime’. No wonder duane just is infatuated with this group.”

    I don’t care about their religious beliefs, don’t know much about them at all. You guys just want to attack, pillage, and cart off the children of every community whose religious beliefs you deem to be “weird”.

  138. “Has anyone here EVER heard me say any such things?”

    Boots, I heard your child had 20 identifiable bone breaks but I’m going to keep my “sources” secret, don’t want you to sent them an anonymous rock in the mail with Exodus 32:27-29 scrawled on it and claim it “isn’t a threat”?

    Disclaimer: I’m sure Boots was a good mother but see how easy it is to make accusations.

  139. April Day you seem to be completely clueless as to what Pliggy has done, said or enacted on posters on these Blogs and the SLTrib. I lost respect for Pliggy simply because he now chooses to hide and let ‘friends’ like you do his talking for him. I know enough about the FLDS to see their blind allegiance, ‘Keep Sweet’ motto, avow Gentiles are all EVIL, profess the ‘Root of Cain’, lie/disavow ‘Blood Atonement’ teachings, espouse ‘One Man Rule’, hold to ‘Answer Them Nothing’ axiom, recant sworn testimony(s), give no eye-witness accounts, lie,lie,lie enough to last a normal lifetime & to know that there isn’t alot to care to befriend nor admire. Now run along and tell Pliggy you stood up for him and he should really should speak for himself, or does confronting the TRUTH concern him too much?

  140. It is amazing Boots. He ascribes motives and beliefs that others don’t have and then attacks them for the things he ascribed to them. Like the rock throwing non flds in short creek. Entirely from duane’s imagination.

  141. Duane,

    Enough people have come in to talk to us to make us understand that what has happened with Utah and Arizona CPS is now happening here in Texas, ‘Shut your mouth, or you won’t have a job’.

    Now, do you really think I’m going to hand over the names of people who are scared to death their livlihoods will be taken away from them in this crappy economy if they go public?

    As far as my source on the 5 year old boy, I’ll just bet that it all comes out in the criminal trials this fall. And suspect #1 is going to be the YFZ doctor who claimed he had “never seen ANY abuse in their community”.

    Like you, Duane, he just don’t get what abuse IS, and I hope he rots in the general population of a Texas prison for YEARS while he figures it all out. Then I hope they go after the “mother” of that baby and send her to one to rot, too!

    Do you think that’s “hateful”, Duane, that I want child abusers rotting in prison? ‘Cause that’s about as “hateful” as I get.

  142. Duh duane you get duped time and again by multiple blogs and websites, until you seem quite ‘loopy’ from all the propaganda. You presented Jean Swantko Wiseman as someone to,”…educate yourself on the true nature of Constitutional right” and it turns out she is the wife of Elder Eddie Wiseman of the Twelve Tribes of Island Pond, what an authoritative and auspicious Councilor at Law, she used to be a Public Defender before she joined up. duane she’s just another fanatical fringe group wife that listens to everything told to her Prophet Elbert Eugene Spriggs. Keep ignoring the radical beliefs and ruined lives from these secretive sects, if you choose, duane but you miss the crimes being committed. LOL

  143. For anyone who is interested, please sign and circulate the petition we have started.

    The text reads:

    Protect Texas Children from the Crime of Polygamy!

    According to the United Nations, the cultural practice of polygamy has been universally proven, worldwide; to drive women and children into poverty, limit the educational, and career opportunities of females, restrict their choice of life partner, travel, dress, and access to birth control. They have also determined that polygamy always produces molestation, child brides, and a reduction of the females over all worth in society.

    Acknowledging that the cultural practice of polygamy is a human rights violation of women and children, we ask:

    All elected officials in Texas to publicly recognize polygamy as a serious crime, which endangers children.

    All elected officials in Texas to support the vigorous prosecution of the crime of polygamy.

    For new legislation to make the criminal penalties for practicing polygamy in Texas a felony, with mandatory prison terms, regardless of the gender or religion of the convicted offender.

    For a full and public disclosure be made to the Texas people, of the extent of the abuse found among the Texas children of the polygamist FLDS sect, rescued by Texas CPS staff and Texas Rangers in 2008.

    For our Texas Child Protective Services employees, the Texas Rangers, Shelter workers and hotline staff to never again be subjected to Federal threats and pressure to abandon the cause of abused children from polygamy within Texas.

    We ask our law enforcement, legal, judicial, and social welfare systems to protect the victims who leave any polygamist relationships within our state.

    As citizens of the sovereign state of Texas, we declare it our right and duty to protect innocent children from parents who insist on engaging in the criminal activity of polygamy, and continue to break laws designed to protect Texas children.

  144. Boot’s what Federal Threats and Pressures?

  145. Why is it easier or more tempting to accuse and condemn others than it is to try and find the good in them? Why is it easier to believe every bit of gossip that comes out about a group or leader than it is to give them the benefit of the doubt? Wouldnt that be better and offer a bigger opportunity of communication and help in any kind of reorganizational efforts in the future? And I will never understand the mainline Mormons turning away from them, for it appears to me that the FLDS are the ones who more accurately follow the original Mormon beliefs, yet they dont even claim them.

    I know the legal issues have to be dealt with, but on blogs it seems like there is a real surge in angry criticism towards these people. Does anyone remember those young families and how they struggled to answer questions to the media in the beginning of the YFZ news? They didnt strike me as this mean and hateful group so discribed on our blogs. I would so love to see how some of those folks are managing now. Remember the lady Marilyn who gave the tour of their YFZ ranch? And the mother Marie who cried about her boys being taken? How good it would be to see how they are doing now and how they are taking what has happened. I would imagine a lot of these folks are in shock about all that has happened with land and property and family division. I wish things could be worked out for these folks instead of the outside world contributing to their feelings of endless persecution. I just care. Cant help it. I just do.

  146. The one’s the FBI special agents Broadway and Fagan dished out when they went in, during the early days of the raid, and told workers to ‘shut their mouths and quit talking to the Texas Rangers about anything they saw, or the children said’.

    The pressure that came from somewhere much higher than any internal Texas CPS officials, to non-suit every last child, even though gross abuses were identified.

    Here, this is where the pattern started:

    Comments from Those Involved with the YFZ Children of FLDS Polygamists and Pushed Out of the Case
    [Excerpts from an article in the San Angelo Times April 12, 2009]

    • Childress, an attorney with CPS from Austin
    “It had already been established my opinion was not wanted,” Childress said. “I won’t lend my name and legal reputation pursuing a legal strategy I adamantly oppose.”
    ~Charles G. Childress

    • “What they wanted me to do was go forward and non-suit the cases and do basically what they’ve done since I left – which is what I refused to do,” Childress said. “I don’t understand why Warren Jeffs with 53 wives is still the legal father of however many hundred kids in any state.”
    ~Charles G. Childress

    • He said the situation became untenable as pressure increased from Austin to shut down cases, even ones with significant concerns.

    • Childress resigned Oct. 23, exactly three months after CPS asked him to take charge of the case.

    • In his place, the agency turned to Schmidt, whose tenure as the managing attorney lasted, he said, just one meeting.

    • Schmidt, an attorney with CPS from Austin

    • “They wanted to hear the direction I thought the cases ought to go,” Schmidt said, and when he told them he would seek termination on several cases, “they basically told me I was relieved of my duties.”
    ~Jeff Schmidt

    • “There were cases that needed to be non-suited,” he said, “but they were non-suiting left and right. … We did things in these cases we never do.”
    ~Jeff Schmidt

    • “There were a handful we wanted to take forward and terminate their parental rights,” he said. “There is a mountain of evidence against these people. … Some of the cases, absolutely we should have non-suited – but not near the amount that we did.”
    `~Jeff Schmidt

    • “I also thought at some point I might convince them otherwise,” he said. “I had a glimmer of hope.”
    ~~Jeff Schmidt

    • But when DFPS officials asked Schmidt what course he thought was appropriate, and he told them he planned to follow Childress’ approach, he said he was dismissed from the case.

    • “We had some serious differences of opinion based on applicable law and what was in the best interests of the children,” Schmidt said. “We completely failed to protect those children. That’s my opinion.”
    ~~Jeff Schmidt

    Children’s Advocacy Center of Tom Green County
    [Excerpts from an article in the San Angelo Times March 29, 2009]

    • Ripping into CPS for what they described as an inexplicable desire to drop the case as quickly as possible, Brown and her employees said the agency underestimated in its final assessment the amount of abuse that took place at the ranch. As well, they said CPS non-suited children without adequately determining whether they were truly safe from the prospect of forced underage marriages.

    • “At some point, CPS decided to turn a corner and just get out,” Brown said. “That’s when everybody stopped getting looked at.”
    ~ CASA Executive Director Debra Brown

    • Members of state and national CASA organizations arrived to provide help and advice about increased security as staffers received threats over their perceived role in the removal.

    • If CPS failed in its investigation of alleged abuse at the ranch, the women said, it was by caring too much about public opinion – to the point that the agency, they said, began dismissing cases indiscriminately.

    “If (local CPS) had been doing this case, it would have been done completely different, but it went to Austin, to the bureaucrats.”

    “The whole about-face was kind of weird.”
    Childress “left, then Jeff left, then so did the plan”, she said.

    “Are they safe? Well, I don’t know. I still have doubts about that.”
    ~ CASA Executive Director Debra Brown

  147. Linda we all remember these FLDS women that lied to the public with their pretend tears and robot voices. Do you know the same women you are holding up as examples have abandoned many of their UNDERAGE children, raise their children in a CRIMINAL environment and actively teach their children to commit crimes? Yes I wonder how all of Marie’s children that were deemed not special or good enough to come to YFZ feel about their mother abandoning them?

  148. Linda Lamb you need to get more informed if you truly care about these women and children. First of wondering what happened to their children is the poor darlings were forced to return to whatever meager existence they held at the YFZ Ranch or agreed to abide by the CPS case agreement(s). Over 220+ cases of abuse/neglect were formally reported, don’t you even care what that really means? “The issues that have to be dealt with…” Linda is 9 cases of statutory rape do you have any feelings for those minor girls? Child Brides allowed to marry underage and into polygynist relationships, as well? Don’t be calling persecution what is clearly criminal prosecution and 9 young girls who’s lives have been ruined by a mindless sect of religious fanatics. You speak of suffered family divisions that their own religion heaps upon them, moving from UT,AZ or Canada to marry or live, reassignments to another Priesthood, ‘Lost Boys, shunning family members and allowing Child Brides all part and parcel of their FLDS Church religion.
    How could they be so uncaring toward one another? Why do they inflict such deep and divisive actions upon themselves all by Prophet’s creedo? This needs to be stopped and the crimes need to be tried and justice meted out for Law & Order.

  149. Amen, sister, amen.

  150. LadySadie, where do you get that information?

  151. And those children that Childress and Schmidt had proof of serious abuse, I just wonder what their “mothers” names were, hmmmmmmmm. Linda Lamb are you sure you really want to know?

  152. Read the dictations and all the court documents that have been made readily available to you on this site, Linda. Read the facts before you prove yourself to be an ignorant fool.

  153. And Boots even though I am not a citizen of Texas I hope you don’t mind that I signed your petition anyway. I think this needs to be a national issue not just a Texas issue and have actively contacted the legislatures of my state about these issues in hopes that the infestation can be stopped before it has a chance to spread to my state.

  154. Thanks darlin’, no problem at all. You’re absolutely right about how this needs to be a national issue.

    It is time for the power players like Orrin Hatch, Michael O. Leavitt and Mark Shurtleff to declare their REAL intentions on this issue.

    Thank you so much for the support. I don’t know what state you’re in, but you might want to double check to make sure the FLDS isn’t already there. I know Mississippigirl was shocked to find some FLDS neighbors less than 20 minutes from where she works.

    They’ve already bought land in Oklahoma, too.

  155. And Linda it is called endless prOsecution, it is called this because they endlessly break the law.

  156. Where the heck is this petition? I want to sign. How can anybody be as misinformed or uninformed as Linda? Honey, get your night goggles off your rear end and reattach them to your face where they belong. Take your fingers out of your ears and stop yelling ‘lalalalala’ long enough to get yourself fully informed. As Sadie pointed, there is a wealth of FACT and EVIDENCE posted here. No gossip – just the facts, ma’am, just the facts. No fairy tale spin here.

  157. Petition is here, sugar:

    You GO GF!

  158. Holy Crap Batman!!! LOL You put documents right in front of people and they STILL don’t comprehend!! Linda is a regular customer on Mudpucky’s site, you know the Old guy who LIES , but never gives documented evidence?

  159. Boots, There’s been a poster named Forguson that is in Ardmore, OK is that where FLDS sect has bought more land?

  160. Boots I signed your Petition

  161. Weird you say that cajim, cause Leroy Jeffs was in federal prison for awhile in Oklahoma!

  162. Could Linda be mudpucky’s wife?

  163. They’ve been in Okalahoma for several years now. It is my understanding that they have just recently been buying more of it.

    We know Leroy Johnson had property in or near Broken Arrow, or Broken Bow…can’t rightly remember at the moment.

    Also, I don’t know if it is still an active business, or what Oklahoma city it was in, but Joseph Knudson ran one called INTERNATIONAL MARKETING CONCEPTS in Oklahoma.

  164. Thank you Deputydog, I sure do appreciate it. Let’s keep it circulating and see how many people we can get to “wake up”.

  165. Will do boots!

  166. Boots there is a Broken Arrow just east of Tulsa, OK?
    Doesn’t look to be a FLDS enclave type of area, too populated with Major Highways on three triangular sides or near a intrastate border. Ardmore sets between Oklahoma City and Dallas along Interstate 35, just inside OK border. Actually, the panhandle seems to be their more natural habitat.

  167. How about Broken Bow? Like I said, can’t really remember which one it was now….and it might have been a business, not a residence.

    I do know, soon after the YFZ raid, a busload of FLDS went through Terrell, and told a store clerk when she asked [becuase she recognized the women’s dresses from TV], that they were all “headed to Oklahoma for a church spiritual retreat”. She said the men instantly ordered all the women to get back on the bus and stay there.


  168. Okay, here’s the text of the email I got back then:

    Don’t know….men came in to see about getting fan belt replaced on the bus, the mechanic came in and told me that 3 women got out of the bus wearing the dresses and braided hair like the group ….he kept saying he had seen one of the guys on tv. He said they told the women to get back on the bus and the windows were tinted black so you couldn’t see anything inside. Of course I found all of this out after they bus left and I didn’t get to see the women, or I would have been out there in the middle of it.

  169. Oklahoma SouthEastern corner, near Texas and Arkansas borders, Broken Bow near Beavers Bend state Resort Park, McCurtain County. This is a remote getaway location with two intrastate borders, more likely locale.

  170. Ohhhh is that what that Linda is. Pretends not to know about the ill and abused children, the ones with no parents at YFZ, the ones who did not want to be returned to those people.

    On & on & on. Agitprop.

  171. “Why is it easier to believe every bit of gossip that comes out about a group or leader than it is to give them the benefit of the doubt”

    But do they call you Joe the Bartender? No. Do they call you Joe the Tenor? NO. Do they call you Joe the woodworker. NO! But as soon as you….oh, never mind.

    Yeah, giving away your 12 year old daughter to a 56 year old man who already has 70 some concubines. My gosh, we DO take offense easily, don’t we?

  172. “I would imagine a lot of these folks are in shock about all that has happened with land and property and family division.”

    I guess Linda doesn’t know who those ladies were, and doesn’t realize the upper caste doesn’t have to worry.

  173. Even since Arizona cut them off welfare this year? And yes they were getting welfare while living in Texas. A crime family is a crime family is a crime family.

  174. Since Linda is so worried and caring, I think she should pick up maintaining these free-loaders when Arizona cuts them off.

    And didn’t I tell you my CPS friend swore they were picking up welfare checks at the post office even as Albert Hawkins (TX DSHS)was insisting they weren’t?

    Lying for the Lord. Linda, isn’t that a problem for you? That whole lying for the Lord thingy?

  175. Since Linda is so worried and caring, I think she should pick up maintaining these free-loaders when Arizona cuts them off. And didn’t I tell you my CPS friend swore they were picking up welfare checks at the post office even as Albert Hawkins (TX DSHS)was insisting they weren’t?

    Lying for the Lord. Linda, isn’t that a problem for you? That whole lying for the Lord thingy?

  176. Hello, Linda? Linda can you read me? Yahooo, Linnddaa…….has anybody seen Linda…….???

    Maybe she went into the Archives and when she comes back out she’ll be so incensed she won’t be asking anymore novice questions and wonder when the first San Angelo Grand Jury indictment trial is scheduled to begin.

  177. Poor Linda probably had to run back to Bull Mudpuckey’s site, she got ambushed by the facts on this one. Being the nice southern baptist preacher’s wife and all, she enjoys the smut, and potty mouth on that site sooo much better.

  178. What crime(s) do you people think Pliggy has committed other than remain loyal to his family, his church and the polygamous lifestyle in which he was raised?

    Pliggy only had one wife. So you can’t nail him for practicing polygamy. He was never at the YFZ ranch. He did not have any children at the YFZ ranch. So you can’t blame him for anything that allegedly happened in Texas.

    You people are so prejudiced and bigoted against the FLDS that you assume that everyone associated with the FLDS is a criminal. You rely on negative stereotypes instead of getting to know the FLDS and ex FLDS as individuals.

    CAJim, you never had any respect for Pliggy in the first place. You can’t lose something that you never had.

  179. April Day you don’t know what your talking about, again.

  180. Well now April Showers,, I don’t know Pliggy, do you? Ever met the person face to face? What kind of a man of any religion runs off and leaves his wife and kid? Why didn’t he take them with him?
    The man says he wasn’t kicked out,, so that means he walked away and deserted his family.

  181. let me guess, april day is the dopey nurse from the trib?

  182. Wow! My favorite bogus Baptist preacher’s wife was here to hector, and I missed her.

    I’m wasting what compassion I have (and it’s limited, I’ll grant you) for the many victims of the Cultmaster and his evil minions.

  183. Greetings don’t feel bad,, Mudpucky creeps out on linda lamb to, cause she claims she’s baptist, lol
    She is getting No where with anyone!

  184. I like Linda Lamb. I think she is a very compassionate person.

    Linda Lamb also has the intelligence NOT to rely on negative stereotypes to prejudge people and to fuel hatred for minorities.

  185. cajim,

    if it is near a state border, my bet is that’s it! They love to stradle borders, because just like in Hildale/Colorado City, if one state tries to prosecute, they won’t bother denying the charges, but will simply argue that the crime took place across the street in the other state, thus taking jurisdiction away and getting the case tossed out.

    I had the opportunity to talk to man who served on the jury for one of the cases in Mohave County. He said that’s what blew his mind most, that the guy was so arogant he didn’t bother to deny the crime, just claimed it happened in another jurisdiction.

    The jury decided that since his home was in fact located in Colorado City, it was reasonable to believe he had indeed been bedding the underage concubine there, and not running across the border everytime he did it. They found him guilty…and then the judge sentenced him to 45 days for the crime of stautory rape, and required him to register as a sex offender.

    Funny thing is, there must be some SUPER SECRET sex offender registry for polygamists, because we have yet to be able to find him [and many others with similar sentances and requirements to register] listed in the regular one…Hmmmmm.

  186. Greetings, Not sure why I came back. Not sure why you need to label me as bogus. I dont post much anymore because of my comments are just a joke here. Dont quite understand why I annoy so much. Just wanted to express my opinion as the rest of you do. I dont have much need for hateful comments regardless of which side they are on. That is why I have clashed with Bill M.’s blog from time to time. Still he is not as outright rude at me personally as some of you on here are. I wont try again to assure you of who I am. That really doesnt matter. Just for the record, I was quite shocked to read the Archives. What I read about one man does not cause me to judge all the families and mothers in that group. Loyalty comes at a price. Sadly, it seems there are corrupt leaders in all kinds of churches and organizations and politics. And that is a bad witness to those who find no need for faith or a church family in their lives. I continue to say, and feel sure that it is not appreciated, that I pray that the FLDS will find wisdom and discernment to hold on to what is good, and the courage to let go of what is destructive.

  187. WOW! K.Wright!

    And didn’t I tell you my CPS friend swore they were picking up welfare checks at the post office even as Albert Hawkins (TX DSHS)was insisting they weren’t?

    Do you remember where you read or heard Hawkins make those claims, TV, radio, print?

    Cause here is my bet, folks….Once Arizona had to admit to Texas that they had been funding the move, they had to cut them off.

    So my next question is, have they all been put on Texas benefits now? And if so, how would they reconcile the state policy of having to identify the fathers of the children, so the state can go after them for reimbursment?

    They have that requirement in AZ, too…oh, excuse me, except for polygamists. They aren’t required to fill out the same paperwork as everyone else, cause they’re special I suppose…kinda like their SUPER SECRET sex offender registry, too.

    Remember guys, this is the state that wouldn’t even allow a vote to keep known CHILD BIGAMIST from being granted custody of children…couldn’t even get THAT off the floor for a vote in their state.

    I’ll go finish my redheaded tizzy someplace else, now that steam is coming out of my ears!

  188. Let go of what is destructive you say, like mothers and fathers pimping their 12, 13, 14 year old girls out to 30, 40, 50, 60 year old men ya mean? Like 30, 40, 50, 60 year old men raping 12, 13, 14 year old girls, distructive things like that Linda?

  189. Or Linda maybe you mean distructive things like openly committing crimes, you are aware that polygamy is a crime in every state in this nation aren’t you? Or distructive things like raising their children in a criminal environment, and teaching the children that to go to heaven they must commit crimes? Or maybe you mean things like trading the women and children around like cattle and then telling the children that the father they had yesterday no longer exists and this new man mommy is sleeping with is now your father? Little distructive things like that Linda?

  190. Linda

    I didnt read all your posts. As you are aware, it appears 12 men from YFZ are going to trial in OCT with damning evidence against them, such as DNA.

    What is your take on that? Do you feel its good to get molesters off the streets or communes for that matter?

  191. Linda,

    I don’t know of anyone here who has ever demonstrated a lack of compassion. I just think their compassion is reserved for the innocent victims, rather than wasted on the perps and abusers.

    I’m sorry you have been treated like a mushroom, kept in the dark and fed BS, but honestly, sugar, couldn’t you even bother to look at the documentation and evidence, rather than the media spin?

    I have great compassion for the children who are raised to distrust law enforcement, because their parents are busy breaking the law, and scaring the living daylights out of them until they agree to grow up and break the laws, too..

    Abuse is a cycle, Linda. You may be a victim of it as a child, but every adult has to make a conscious decision whether to break the cycle, or join it.

    Polygamy is abuse, and abuse isn’t a right, or a religion.

  192. Stamp, I certainly do think proven molesters should be prosecuted. And I do think that truthfulness is a crucial thing that especially people of faith should always maintain. Any group that has to be deceptive and secretive is obviously hiding something and needs to take a close look at their methodology and make some changes. Somehow it seems that the perspective of some within groups is that they are being persecuted and have to do these things to survive. And that is a crime and a shame.
    I just cannot generalize and lump all the FLDS as criminals when they are following what they have been taught to do in their religion. It is hard to picture all those fathers as rapists and those mothers as heartless child abusers.

  193. Linda,

    Maybe the women aren’t all abusers, but the point is, they are still obviously unable, or unwilling to protect their children from the crimes.

    If your 14 year old was given to her step brother in marriage and they spent their “wedding night” in the bedroom 2 doors down from you, and he raped your 14 year old baby girl so severely that she hemoraged for 3 days after that, is that okay? Is it okay NOT to go help your 14 year old baby while she is being violently raped, because “She belongs to Haven now, and he can do what he wants with her”?

    That’s exactly what Flora’s mom did, and said, when Flora’s sister was given in “marriage”. Does Flora have compassion for her mother who was raised to believe she had no power or right to protect her children? sure she does. She also thinks her mother should do prison time for it, too.

    Flora’s siter Ruby is 22 now. She has 6 children and inside information suggests she has attempted suicide several times. But there she is, stuck in the cycle, raising more victims who will someday become abusers themselves.

    Yes, we do have compassion here. Our compassion is reflected in our desire to STOP this cycle.

  194. Boot’s
    Blaming the FBI for CPS pulling out is laughable.

    Did you borrow the tin foil hat?

  195. Anon,

    No, but if you’ll take off your invisible suit I’ll make one for you to wear.

  196. Oh, and I never accused the FBI of being directly responsible for the pull out. I have, however, pointed the finger [guess which one] right at Bush’s Secretery of Health and Human Services, one Mr. Michael O. Leavitt, from Cedar City, Utah. Y’know, the place where agents raid a polygamists home, and don’t even bother to remove a small boy who has obviously taken a severe beating to his face?

  197. Linda come on you couldn’t read hours of dictations and testimony in just today, possibly you have read this archive over days past. I believe that Warren has over 80+ wives, let’s assume some are sisters so say 50 individual families have given one of their daughters in ‘celestial marriage’ so that means two parents times 50 families =100Adult parents that have allowed at least one of their daughters to marry this Prophet, not one of whom is charged for such parental abuse. Warren Jeffs is presently a convicted felon facing multiple charges and this congregation still considers him their spiritual leader, where are they headed Heaven or Hell? Consider the hundreds, say 300+ exFLDS members that have been apostated by Prophet Jeffs, doesn’t their spiritual needs compel your compassion, many have completely rejected any faith owing to his actions and the FLDS Church then practices shunnung by all of it’s membership, so are they guilty of being ‘Hard-hearted’? You ask the rest of us to practice discernment, this FLDS sect has existed for over 150Years+ practicing all of these listed tenets but we are to assume some or most are guiltless? Surely the problem with discernment rests with you.

  198. Linda, You ask why it is easier to to accuse and condemn then give benefit of the doubt? Are you completely serious?

    Let me give the beefit examples:

    My daddy is the best man in the world, My daddy is so good because he does the things he should…… That was a song we had to sing as children, after which my daddy was screwing his 8 year old daughter. Oh but maybe I should just leave my door unlocked next time cause I need to give him the benefit of the doubt.

    Out of about 1000 lostboys I have gathered around 300 court records (and the search is not complete because I am almost sick at what I have found) showing convictions of Child Molestation since leaving the cult. Oh, but maybe we should ask those 300 Molesters to be Big Brothers so we can give them the benefit of the doubt.

    How about those women who have locked up in mental institutions for trying to protect their kids from their perverted masters? Should we just sit back and let the perverts keep the kids because their crazy moms tried to commit the crime of protection? That would sure give those perverts the benefit of the doubt that they will now be the ones protecting those helpless innocent babies. Oh but wait… protecting kids is a crime in the group so … Oh well, the concubines who help the perverts molest kids cried so prettily on TV we should help them spread the word that “we are sweet and persecuted for liking to watch children get molested.” We are liars and cheats and our children are ours to treat as we like.” “It is only those EVIL apostates trying to make us look bad because we are molesters, cheats, rapists, liars, beating, and swaping daughters, so can’t everybody just throw rocks at the apostates instead?”

    Yeah, I was so darn confused. Isn’t it great that we all have someone like you to show us how to have compassion for all those MOLESTERS, CHEATERS, LIARS, BEATERS, and DAUGHTER SWAPPERS?

    OH the relief! Who cares about helpless innocent babies?

    Grow up. I’ll just bet you are like those damn women I grew up with that told their daughters to obey and submit when they tried to get help for their ABUSE. You sound like counselors I have met who tell kids that it was their fault for being “so PROVACATIVE” at the ripe old age of 3, 5, or 8.

    Linda says: “I know the legal issues have to be dealt with… OHHHH, THE LEGAL ISSUES…. Try CRIMES Linda. Come on I know you can say it if you struggle hard enough like those young lieing families. Come on now. Struggle harder.

    Linda says: ” How good it would be to see how they are doing now” and I couldn’t agree more. Only the difference between you and me is that I would like to see how the babies are doing while you want to see Mother Marie (who cried with NO TEARS).

    Linda says: “I just care. Cant help it. I just do.” Do Ya? Do Ya really?

    Let me tell you something about really caring. CARING is getting out of the abuse only to return to the family you LOVE and seeing that the abuse has grown a thousand times worse since you left. CARING is fighting for EVERY helpless innocent child being hurt and abused even while everyone you love turns around and attacks you. You all think I fight for these kids because I hate them? Think again. It’s because I love them that I am willing to stand up for them. Since you are a regular off BM’s site you have played right into the most HATEFUL SPITEFUL attacks perpetrated upon the victims but the very people who destroyed their innocence and you DARE SAY YOU CARE?

    Do victims everywhere a favor and STOP CARING. Your kind of caring HURTS helpless, innocent babies. Have you ever noticed that it is not the Apostates who ATTACK their families who are still in the cult? It is the CULT that attacks the Apostates for DARING to tell the forbidden secrets. Think about that while you CARE for Mother Marie.

    I don’t usually respond to ignorance like yours but I guess you drew the lucky straw tonight. I do apologize if I offend you in any way but I stand by EVERYTHING I have said and done to protect the innocent. I am willing to stand in front of every FLDS member and look them in the eye. Do you think they would/could face me?

    God bless all the children, even yours Linda, and protect them from MOLESTERS, LIARS and CHEATERS. And God bless the MOMS who have the guts to keep their babies safe.

  199. Flora: Very well said and from much more knowledge and experience than any other posters here. Thank you for sharing that.
    Why Linda and duane prefer to believe Bill M or others who have not walked the walk like you Elissa, and Carolynn have done is beyond me. Thanks again.

  200. Flora I would hope that what you have to tell reaches into whatever parts of the brains and hearts decency resides rather than the nasty hatefilled ignorance old BM poops out.

  201. GEE, A ten – pointer!

    Looks like the PPSG just got their asses handed to them!

    Thanks for setting them straight, Flora!

  202. April Day is cup cake, yes.

  203. No stamp, most of these posts just spew forth massive amounts of unfounded or uncorroborated allegations. No doubt there are have been cases of abuse within the FLDS, however, Warren’s dictations mostly spell out what he did, not “why” to any significant detail and that is important when discerning motive in most cases, especially the excommuncations. The number of families who Warren directly impacted, is relatively few and in most cases, individuals he “handled” in one form or another, were from his own family. Pliggy, PK, and Cement have been the most outspoken of ex-flds, One was booted for pornography-which often leads to divorce in the mainstreat world, another left on his own because he was no longer believer-normal in most religions. The other left because of disillusionment with the leadership, secrecy, and long hours of work. None expressed terror and fear for their families while they were active members, most ex-flds, even the professional victims, don’t describe much in the way of terror and foreboding while they were flds, all of their issues were strictly with their family members and of course, their personal dealings with Warren.

    Linda, What the anti-flds is employing here is the “rapid fire” method, which simply means to overwhelm your opponet with accusations and assertions so there is not nearly enough time for any person to refute them all. This is a classic strategy employed in the creation vs. evolution debate, I guess the anti-flds have taken lessons from them.

  204. Indeed, Let us have sympathy and compassion for the innocent victims rather than their abusers. Of course not every flds man abuses, molests, or marries girls under the age of consent. Likewise, not every flds female aids and abets in those activities.
    What is needed, and is somewwhat in process is an investigation to see who is complicit in these crimes. Then indictments can be brought and trials held. This is what I want to happen. It does not matter if the flds thrive or dwindle away. Those who commit crimes should face investigation and punishment if found guilty.

  205. LOL!! Are you guys allied with PETA? if not you should be.

    “But now People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, calling it an “execution,” wants the commander-in-chief to show a little more compassion to even “the least sympathetic animals.”

    “Believe it or not, we’ve actually been contacted by multiple media outlets wanting to know PETA’s official response to the executive insect execution,” a blog on the group’s website explained. “In a nutshell, our position is this: He isn’t the Buddha, he’s a human being, and human beings have a long way to go before they think before they act.”

    The group has sent Obama a device that traps a fly so it can then be released outside.”

  206. To Linda and Duane:

    “There are none so blind, they cannot see!

    Linda lives in a fantasy world with duane, and duane refuses to accept the fact of facts!
    Linda , I don’t know what kind of a baptist minister’s wife you are, but let me add something here.
    Open your eyes to reality! I doubt you even have a clue to how many children in your own congregation are being abused by a parent or family member. When you wear a halo , you tend to not notice the signs because you assume people around you think like you, believe like you.
    I got news dolly!! They don’t!!!

  207. duane, not a PETA lover here! I see a fly, it’s a dead fly!
    I am VERY passionate about child abuse, someone hurts a child and I know it, they are in for trouble, BIG trouble.

  208. duane laments:

    “No stamp, most of these posts just spew forth massive amounts of unfounded or uncorroborated allegations”


    Well, GEE then duane, why is Warren in prison, and his little empire experiencing full blown destruction?

    Not every abuser has been given his medicine and many innocent will suffer due to the systemic abuses that are epidemic in this group.

    Who ya gonna blame?

    Elissa? Brent? Flora? Dan? Bruce? Mark?

    How about accepting some responsibility for the FLDS and acknowledge that THEIR actions caused reactions?

    Its simple really. BTW, how many Polygamist child abusing communes do you still have in Texas running free doing their thang?

    Or are they still prosecuting all they can find?

  209. Also Flora isnt “Most of these posts”

    She is that nice FLDS lady you were hoping to chat with, well there ya go! She told you how it is, and yet again, you shove your head up farther.

    You ought to be at your tonsils by now.

  210. Flora, brava! You answered her better than anyone else could have dreamed of doing.

    As a Christian, I am obligated to forgive these men, and feel compassion for them. But that is completely separate from my obligation to seek justice for the oppressed, which is also a clearly articulated Biblical responsibility. An injustice can’t be rectified without uncompromising exploration. Only after the injustice is understood can one extend mercy. Forgiveness requires knowledge; it is a completely different thing from willful blindness.

    When Jesus commands us to forgive lest we not be forgiven, he is not saying that we should abandon reason, or excuse offenders from trial, public disgrace or prison. He is speaking of our spiritual response to our accusers. We are never told to abandon our earthly responsibilities in this world, including our responsibility as citizens to maintain the rule of law.

    None of these abuses would be possible if WSJ & Co did not profane God’s holy name, twisting his words to suit their despicable ends. As a believing Baptist, Linda, how do you get around that? Do you think it’s OK to let that pass without commenting?

  211. Flora, I want to respond to your post but for one of the very few times words fail me. They can not express the emotions that your post has brought forth. We have never met but I have stated many times that you are a hero and I just wanted you to know that you have now been upgraded to superhero status in my eyes.

  212. Duane, the other day I had a lemonade break with an Amish Mennonite fellow. I told him your theory that the FLDS were much like the Amish. He was appalled by the comparison, and thought the idea of old men marrying young women was revolting. (He was an old man, so he spoke with some authority.) He also said that FLDS clothing was a sham, masking bad behavior with the appearance of rectitude.

    He told me he’d read “Escape” by Carolyn Jessop and liked it very much.

  213. One more thing—isn’t it one hell of a presumption for Linda to demand forgiveness and compassion when she wasn’t the victim? Isn’t it the right of the victim to extend that, and only in his or her time, not according to LL’s schedule?

  214. Duane you ever go listen to the interviews on the Arizona news channel with Mike Watkiss.
    These interviews, aren’t written , they are actually the women themselves talking about what goes on in Flds.
    Fawn Broadbent, Fawn Holm, Laurene Jessop, and many more..
    Of course you don’t like Flora duane, Many people don’t. Esepecially because she is a woman who intends to move all heaven and hell to implement changes against systematic child abuse into the law.
    If flora was a man, You would be hoopin and hollerin how great the man was. But because Flora is a woman, You dismiss what she has to say… Shame on you duane!!!!

  215. duane, I personally know a young woman, NOT flds, whose father raped her from the time she was 3yrs old. He was a minister, and the whole time he was raping her, he was quoting scripture out loud.
    She told her mother when she was 7yrs old duane, and her mother said, she couldn’t leave her dad, but she would talk to him. TALK TO HIM???? She was continually raped till she turned 16, when she ran away. She is still a mess, she will always be a mess, because she never had anyone speak out for her!! But, last year , she started getting help, but you can never erase the scars abuse leaves duane.
    How can you so easily dismiss the facts of so many!!! We aren’t talking about one or two people duane, we are talking hundreds in the same community!!!

  216. Duane:

    You say Pliggy, PK and cement are outspoken ex-flds who have not experienced fear? Of course not. Did you forget that BOYS are expendable in the FLDS?

    I can assure you of a couple things that are VERY WELL DOCUMENTED as FACT.

    1) When BOYS leave the FLDS… everybody just continues along.
    2) When GIRLS leave the FLDS… they are hunted and stalked like lost heifers.

    Most of the ex-FLDS girls I know would have given anything to be carried out and dropped on the side of the road.

    BTW Duane. maybe you should ask your good friend pliggy how old his wife was when he comitted STATUTORY RAPE on her the first time. I am curious though…. When he ‘married’ her was it a legal union or did he just take a MANS word that GOD said?

    As to EVERY FLDS member being an abuser… I have NEVER said every FLDS man molests his kids. However, EVERY FLDS ADULT has KNOWLEDGE of children being molested by perverted old men who commit the worst fraud by telling these CHILDREN they are now MARRIED. As such, EVERY FLDS ADULT is guilty of not PROTECTING innocent children and I think they are just as guilty as the perverts.

    Can you spell RICO?

    Oh, and Duane, I am willing to meet you face to face anywhere, anytime, anyplace (within reason of course) and look forward to looking into your eyes while we DEBATE the issues. This is the same offer extended to the FLDS but alas, NO TAKERS. Hmmmm.

    You see, it is THEM who are afraid to look US in the eyes not the other way around.

    Let me know my friend. Is it a date?

  217. Linda,

    I am not sure that you are fully up-to-speed on the FLDS.

    You just met one, Flora, who told it from her perspective – I pray that gives you true insight as to the unbridled abuse that occurs within the group.

    No, not all FLDS men are bad. Not all sons are kicked out. Not all children have 19 broken bones at age 5. Not all children are incontinent at age 8 in bed, both urine and fecal.

    Not all mothers gave up their teen children to old pedophiles.

    But guess what.

    There is rock solid evidence and the Dirty Dozen are going to trial for it.

    Dont you find it curious that Utah and Arizona just magically never had many problems?

    Dont tell me you are naive, I know better!

  218. Flora, I assume this is why the FLDS want no county building in Colorado City—it would be a safe haven within walking distance for girls who want to escape.

  219. Several years ago I went to my Dad and Thanked him for molesting me. I told him it was nothing more than my beliefs changing and my understanding that God (the LOVING God I found after leaving the FLDS mangods) had only given me the knowledge I needed to fulfill his plan. You see, without knowing the horror of what abuse does to a child I could never fight for them and give them what they need.

    Every Child I help is told the same thing… Be Your Own Hero! Learn how to LOVE YOURSELF so you believe you are WORTH fighting for. Only through loving ourselves can we truly find a God who Loves us instead of Punishes us.

    Taken from a poem I wrote:
    “out of ashes we learned to Be Our Own Hero.”

    Duane, I hope someday you, Pliggy, PK, Cement and all others who throw stones at survivors can learn to be your own heroes. Hate gets us NO WHERE and only makes us miserable.

    I should know as I lived with hate for many years after I left. Since I let go of the Hate, the peace I have found is amazing. Try it sometime, it doesn’t ever HURT. I promise.

  220. Duh duane the ‘rapid fire’ style of debating isn’t owing to any argumentative style but rather an insurmountable set of facts, testimonies, records, physical evidence and Public opinion. 27 charges are brought on 12 indicted FLDS members on what you call unfounded and unsubstantiated claims? You point to 3 apostates as your informed sources, yet hundreds of apostates stand in opposition to your view. Flora is as informed an authority as exists in this matter, duh duane, and you offer Cement, PK and Pliggy as your authoritative sources? Has Holmes with all his attempts as sucking up gotten a invitation to another baptism, PK is numb spiritually owing to his FLDS experience and Cement left over questions concerning his sects actions, so two out of your three authorities confirm that returning to the FLDS Church isn’t in their own personal choice and you view them as proof of your viewpoint?

  221. One last thought…. I do not even hate the men going to trial here in Texas. What I do feel is anger and pain for the actions they have perpetrated upon helpless innocent children.

    It is not my place to FORGIVE them anything… Their SINS are between them and God. Can you imagine a Hell where those who take the innocence and purity of a child and shread it with pain, horror and lies? No wonder those men are afraid of their God.

    Now, everyone be good boys and girls while KDee and I are gone. We leave shortly for the second half of our Texas Road Trip.

    Duane, if you can check out the site, our schedule is now posted on the site. Come out and say HI.

  222. By the way, if these people are so loving and giving. How come the medical clinic keeps turning down non flds who have sick children??? or Medical emergencies?

  223. God’s speed Flora and KDee on your trip!!!

  224. Uh Duane?

    (duane said)”What the anti-flds is employing here is the “rapid fire” method”

    What we are employing is the Play & Pay method,

    They think their going to play with young girls whose bodies have not fully developed yet for them to start carrying babies and who haven’t been given a decent education?

    Then their going to “pay”.

    When you break the law, your prosecuted by the law. That old wheel of justice thing you seem to constantly forget about.

  225. Better question DD,

    Go look at a picture of the medical clinic on the AAAP’s website, under mohave & Washington Counties. Notice the 12 foot metal security fence, cameras and call box?

    Something you may not notice, or know, unless someone points it out…the FLDS put that gate up, right smack across a county maintained road.

    Don’t try this at home, folks, it seems to only work if you are a polygamist cult in Utah!

    The clinic is listed along with all other “public health clinics” who receive funding from the state of Utah…they even claim I can get my AIDS test there, LMAO!


  226. I don’t think any of you understand forgiveness. It is absolute, if given, and can only (ultimately) be given by God. The Apostle Paul was a murderer of early Christians.


    The sins of the King of Judah, Manasseh, were vile and numerous and dominated most of his life.


    The Thief on the Cross, who spent all his life a sinner. Dying.


    Rahab, the Harlot.


    Peter, who denied him three times.




    God’s forgiveness overcomes every sin in every sinner no matter how vile. In truth, every sin and every sinner is as vile as the other.

    Hell will torment every soul there, but hell is not populated by persons who were worse than you. It is populated by plenty of people who were better than you. Heaven is populated by the FORGIVEN.

  227. Oh, and Mississippigirl,

    I forgot to mention it before, but I love the idea of us all putting on our Daisy Duke’s shorts and marching through Colorado City…and that’s coming from a gal who would almost rather die than show anyone her pasty white legs and jiggly thighs, lol!

  228. Ok had another thought to share.

    Didn’t Jesus say something like “Let the little children come unto me for it is they who shall inherit the Kingdom of Heaven?”

    MAYBE, what the FLDS think is that by destroying the innocence of the children… God will relent and allow MEN inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Things that make you go …. Hmmmmmmmm.

  229. Hugh

    What makes you think Warren would be forgiven? Or those other philes going to trial?

    God has mercy but there isnt proof he has it for the merciless.

  230. Well, frankley I don’t give a damn about the theology of it all.

    Greetings was right though, only the person who has been transgressed against can extend the forgiveness. Flora’s father never sinned against me, so it’s none of my business to go “forgiving him”. That’s completely absurd.

    That’s right up there with me going to my black friends and asking them to forgive ME, because there were slave owners in my family 150 years ago.

  231. Huge,

    Ad Flora Jessop to the list!


  232. Hugh said:

    “but hell is not populated by persons who were worse than you. It is populated by plenty of people who were better than you. Heaven is populated by the FORGIVEN.”

    This is the most absurd comment I have ever seen. Let me tell you one thing buddy, Heaven is populated by people that CARE, people that stood up for the ones who couldn’t. It’s NOT populated by the ones who “said nothing”.

    We are all forgiven when we get to heaven , we had to ask for it to get there, and your not forgiven DOWN HERE until you ask for it from the person you abused. So when they forgive their abuser’s , well then, we just might see the abuser’s in heaven.

    And unless your ignorant, I haven’t seen ANY of the “dirty dozen” ask for forgiveness from the people they abused. So you won’t see them in heaven, Hugh, so we’re going to set aside a “Special Level” for them.

  233. Hugh,
    GOD forgives! It has nothing to do with a Human Prophet!
    Yes God forgives, yet King David, Solomon, Paul, Peter, all paid for the sins they committed, even though God Forgave them.

    There are none righteous, No not one!

  234. The special level is called “Keep it Zipped, Top & Bottom”

    Apparently they over abused both down here and will not be allowed to use either up there.

    Thank God.

  235. For some reason I think God is going to look at the repentance and remorse of sinners and how they portray that here on earth.

    Since the FLDS have NONE, they score a ZERO when they meet GOD.

  236. And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone be hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea. Mark 9:42

  237. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? And in thy name , cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?

    And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you , depart from me, ye that worketh iniquity.
    Matthew 7:22-23

  238. Flds doctrines are Wolves in Sheeps clothing, and detrimental to those who follow, the most vulerable, the children.

  239. Yep, and Pliggy’s wife was 15 when her took her, and the porn he was caught with was what variety? Anybody? Anybody?

    “But Larry, we just want our children back”.

    Ladies and Gentlemen, here is the “special team” Austin sent in to do just what that woman wanted, ripped the cases from the local CPS, ignored the evidence, hid it well, and gave them ALL their abused children back:

    Albert Hawkins
    Beth Engleking
    Phoebe Knauer
    Kathy Phillips
    Beverly Hutchins
    Michele Surrat
    Trevor Woodruff

  240. I take Hugh doesn’t care to spout his vile support of FLDS members unjustly indicted by illegal search warrants, the Public Intoxication Conspiracy on Montford & Bugden (Ooooppssie, Wally plead out), well let’s make it the Montford Public Intoxication Conspiracy, except Austin PD has had a special DUI task force at this infamous 6th Street BarRow since 2002. Favorite watering hole of University of Texas students/alumnus, say Hugh did you know Montford is a UofT Undergrad and Law School Grad? Sorry,sorry I didn’t mean to interrupt your phoney pulpit harangue, you have an endless capacity for pompous platitudes.

  241. Greetings, you always say it so well, but I disagree slightly on one part. There are definitely victims who must decide if, when and how to forgive, but the crimes are still crimes committed against the state – against society, against all of us and the boundaries we have established for the welfare of the state and its people. We have all been offended and repentance is due us, as well as the victims – and repentance is more than words or feelings. When we see genuine repentance, we can talk about forgiveness. This is what God requires, and we should require no less. We don’t have to be full of anger and hate and can be waiting with open arms for their repentance, but we must not make a mockery of God’s forgiveness. Or the state’s.

  242. I don’t believe in hell, but if it exists, I sort of hope for a Dante type where the “Elect” get special punishments.

    On the issue of forgiveness, I don’t imagine that the dirty dozen will ever ask for it. They will probably go to their death beds thinking they were doing “God’s will.”

  243. So Duane going to go see Flora on June 22? Hmmmm?

  244. And to think, every last one of them started life as a completely innocent human being. It took parents to make these monsters, yet nobody in authority seems to think anything of letting them keep their children, so they can do it all over again?

  245. If a person is trully repentant, their whole life changes. Which means you are no longer the person you once were. The thief no longer steals, the liar, no longer willingly tells lies.

  246. yep, DD, look at the original Hebrew and Greek words for repentance. It means a complete turn around, such as walking one direction, then changing it and walking the complete opposite way, forever.

    From what I understand, there is NO forgiveness without repentance.

    Has anyone seen evidence of that behavior from the dirty dozen yet?

  247. Ron,

    He probably will. We’ve already had visits from some of his “friends” in other locations. They never say anything, just mill around and give us evil stares, which we respond to with smug grins.

    I’d bet a hundred bucks one of them in Abeline was a white supremicist. Since I was almost beaten to death by one in childhood I’m pretty good about picking up their “energy”.

    Duane talks about hate, but you don’t know what hate is until you’ve looked it right in the face as it’s repeatedly kicking you in the stomach, while you lose control of your own bowels, telling you “No daughter of mine is going to be a ni***r and Jew lover”!

    Twenty years ago, when I converted to Judaism, coming out of that mikvah was a rebirth for me I’ll never be able to describe.

  248. Boots the EVIL Gentiles are not the concern of the righteous Priesthood ‘Temple Builders’, they answer only to the Prophet? They are now part of a scattered flock and Short Creek is,”…rejected of God”, haven’t you heard or read the revelation? The only safe place is the ‘Land of Refuge’ which now has a new set of qualifications to enter thereon. There’s no need for repentance, if you’re the brethren in the refuge land, only the Short Creekers need repentance. Sorry Boots I think that means that sorry isn’t in the Warrenite’s vocabulary.

  249. Hey, Hey, Ron. You has gotta believe in Hell. Come on, be a friend. After all, if I had not been Blessed to Hell by the FLDS I may have been Damned to Heaven by them.

    Since all those who leave believe they are Damned to Hell for eternity I started telling them that it was OK because I had found more security in FLDS Hell than I ever did in their Heaven. I also tell them that we are meaner than the Devil so we will just kick his ass and take over when we get there.

    Besides, Can you imagine what FLDS Heaven will be like? SSSSHHHHHUUUUDDDDEEEERRRR! Makes you appreciate FLDS Hell just a little bit when you think about it. After all, I have met all you nice folk in FLDS Hell. LOL

    OK you little demons…. Let’s PARTY!

  250. Boots

    I really don’t think Duane is one of those type folks. I certainly can’t get my mind around how he can reconcile all the evidence of wrongdoing, but I think he’s just a regular person who for some reason is pro FLDS.

  251. Yeah, that’s why he sent me a link to a KKK site, recommending them as “It is a peaceful group that “seek to promote virtuous womanhood, Christian Integrity and Americanism among our Kindred”

  252. Stamp, my reference to “most posts” meant exactly that-not a reference Flora’s specific posts, as she doesn’t post much…but of course you know that

    “You point to 3 apostates as your informed sources”

    They are an example of informed sources, I used them as they post relatively frequently, there are plenty of other sources out there, many by flds females who adamantly defend their lifestyle.

    So Pliggy’s wife was 15? How do you know? Even if she was, how old was he and was 15 the legal age at the time?
    Since she is an adult now, lets talk to her now and ask her if she has regrets and consider herself to be a “victim”.
    What if we raised the legal age of consent to 21 with 3 year spread, then poof! At the stroke of a pen, a whole new class of “victims” and “sex offenders”. Does anyone object to that? You Do? What!! You are in favor of “sex with children”? Perv!

    As it stands, the AOC varies from 12 in Mexico DF, 14 rest of Mexico, 16 in Canada-was 14 till 2005. In US, varies from 16-18 with most states being 16, various other mish mash of exceptions, in Utah, ok for 16 year olds to consent with 10 year spread–if yo’re 26 perfectly normal, but turn 27 and suddenly you are a molester, Delaware the same thing. Best thing is for states to raise it to 21 and again, if you don’t agree then you must be in league with sex offenders, am I right?

    WJeffs and MJ, yes that is disturbing, have to say it again since I know that will be brought up again umpteen more times.

    The vast majority of FLDS members are good people, your scary talk of tracking them down in MS and OK give me the creeps! I guess they need to arm themselves and put up guard towers wherever they go…sad they are driven to do that.

    It is one thing to say that WJ is a “bad man” or Willie is a “bad man” or BJessop a “bad woman”, it is quite another to label thousands of people as dirty rotten criminals who deserve to be hounded and pursued, and then drive around the the country teaching others to hate and despise them.

    If the FLDS and other fundie mormon sects were such a hellhole of misery and suffering, everybody would have “escaped” by now.

  253. Well Flora, my standard response anytime someone tells me I could go to hell is, “well, I’ll have lots of company.”

    Besides, heaven has to be over rated. No beer – no dancing – doesn’t sound like my kind of place.

  254. Hugh, I appreciate your post and intelligent, strong witness. I wish I could express myself as eloquently. Trying to react and respond to those who believe differently in a Christ-like manner has been my goal. I am not a debater, which is quite clear, and it is discouraging that my comments seem to upset so many. Just found your blog today and appreciated the tone and content.

  255. Keeping track of an organized criminal organization, which has moved into your neighborhood isn’t hateful or scary, except maybe to the ones who are part of that criminal organization, and afraid of being caught, Duane.

    They don’t need guns but they’ll definitely need lawyers.

    You can tell them for me, “Welcome to the South, and get used to it”.

  256. The interior perimeter fence within the compound, not visible from the exterior Gate, is where the Watch Tower is located. Funny duane for you to suggest that they twin fencing is for outside security because the watchtower should then be on the outside perimeter fence, Right? The infamous single shot .50 caliber sniper rifle, kept in the Temple isn’t any good for defensive protection, either. The sniper rifle from atop the Temple would be very well suited for stopping a lone target and not an group of targets. How many solo invaders are there likely to attack the YFZ Ranch as opposed to solo escapees? Texas Rangers observed that the security cameras were focused inwardly between buildings and corridors/hallways, funny exterior security would normally for defense be trained on the outside areas and away from the compound. Seems the surveillance and security on the YFZ Ranch was more aligned with prison style security than gated community style of security, and located in the Watchtower, sort of says something, Huh, duane?

  257. Yeah, that’s why he sent me a link to a KKK site, recommending them as “It is a peaceful group that “seek to promote virtuous womanhood, Christian Integrity and Americanism among our Kindred”

    Boots – Duane always likes to do a reductio ad absurdum argument. I suspect if he had known about your particular experience he wouldn’t have done that.

  258. Ron,

    You can’t seem to figure out why Duane likes the FLDS so much, consistantly overlooking any evidence of abuse or criminal behavior, and yet plenty of white supremicists websites are standing up to defend these criminals.

    If you want to think it has nothing to do with the “white purity” espoused by the FLDS, go for it.

    As for me? Like I said, I’ll trust my own guts, since they are rather sensitive to that sort of energy.

  259. The mafia’s criminal activities were solely to make money. The mormon polygamists “crimes” of polygamy don’t earn them money, welfare accusations aside as no one has been convicted of welfare fraud, their occupations and enterprises are legit, you won’t be able to bankrupt them the way the Feds did the mafia.
    Since “polygamy” is a crime that is by default-one of a rather personal nature, it will be very difficult to bring charges of polygamy without massive violations of civil rights.

  260. Boots – I’d never tell anyone not to trust their guts. I will say I’ve had several interactions with Duane and have never gotten any feeling he’s a racist. He’s certainly never made any derogatory statements about my Asian wife.

  261. Gotta run guys.

    See y’all in Houston, Waco, Austin, San Antonio, Kerrville and San Angelo!

    Anyone in the San Antonio area can watch both the WOAI, and KENS 5 morning shows if they want to see interviews with Flora on the day of the signing.

  262. I have every right to know what this organized crime family is doing in my state, duane, every right. I don’t have to excuse it to you or any one else. AND if they aren’t practicing polygamy and AREN’T trying to bleed the beast in the hundreds of different ways that they do, they won’t have a thing to worry about.

    But, listen up, because I mean it, IF I find out that something fishy is going on, you mark my words, I will contact the appropriate authorities and I will demand action. And I won’t be alone.

    I don’t hate them, I hate what they do. If they want to turn it around and stop all of this raping, bleeding the beast and in general trying to re-write the law to suit them, I am more than willing to forgive and move on. I’ll be damned if Mississippi is going to go thru the same crap as Utah, Arizona & now Texas. But I have a really good feeling they will never make it that far.

  263. I hate to Mar your opinion Lambkins but this blog is not the ‘SupraCalvinist Holy Hour’ but your welcome to respond to my question of you about over 100 adult parents that have allowed their daughters to be wed to Prophet Jeffs, 1,200 apostates filed with the UEPTrust looking for equal treatment, the 100% guilt of a congregation that fully backs and supports a Prophet with their shunning of past members, reassignment of Priesthood family(s), limiting education and condoning childhood labor law violations, participating in welfare frauds, donating ill-gotten monies to the church, lying for the Lord, “Keeping Sweet”, practicing ‘celestial marriages’, continuing to follow a convicted felon as Church leader and tithing funds to known criminal acts. Linda not exactly a linen white choir crowd now is it?

  264. duane

    “Since “polygamy” is a crime that is by default-one of a rather personal nature, it will be very difficult to bring charges of polygamy without massive violations of civil rights.

    duane said this on June 19, 2009 at 1:17 PM ”


    Thats not the reason they have escaped prosecution the past 50 years duane. Keep grasping.


    Linda, you find Hugh’s site enjoyable? Too bad you arent 14 and willing, he would like to show you around some more – that is, if his first wife allowed it…

  265. Yeah, duane their business are legit until investigated or inspected. Then there are bankruptcy filings, missing documents, uncooperative witnesses, unpaid taxes, etc. duane did you know that the YFZ cement plant operation was just tagged for not paying sufficient taxes, everything was very legit until the county tax assessor took a closer look and guess what?

  266. Linda?

    If it’s discouraging that your comments seem to upset so many, can you please take that as a clue to educate yourself about this practice?

    Read the stories, listen to the accounts, and I encourage you to read about the other polygamist groups, not just the FLDS. It will help you better understand how this practice is about control, power & money. Not about love, understanding or forgiveness or even families in general . They’re too busy butchering their families with all the re-assigning.


    It’s been alot more families than just one or two that have been broken up by Warren, and if you did your homework, you would know that, which explains why it is so boring to read your comments. They are all the same thing, over and over because you don’t face facts and certainly can’t discuss them.

  267. If hell was populated on the basis of merit, we’d all go. That’s my point.

  268. Hugh

    Some people DEMAND to go to HELL. We have 12 guys right now taht will tell you that!

    No remorse.

    No repenting.

    Would do it again.

  269. Stamp, I don’t agree that what the 12 men did constitutes anything more than disobedience to ruling authority. I’m sorry but I don’t see the early age marriage as a sin, except for the fact that someone has tried to make it against the law, it is not particularly heinous.

  270. Early age marriage is against the law in every state Hugh except Louisana and Mississppi, All states are either 16 or 18. And any underage marriage, has to have written consent by a parent, and a judge okay it. NEITHER of those happened legally in Flds,, remember? Because they are bigamists!

  271. It’s not particularly heinous to you because your not having the babies in a child’s body that is still developing with no pain medication given.

    It’s not particularly heinous to you because your not the one being told who to marry and when and being forced to have sex before your ready.

    How can you say that, Hugh?

    Early age marriage is not right, no matter what culture. Our children deserve time to be children.

  272. “Stamp, I don’t agree that what the 12 men did constitutes anything more than disobedience to ruling authority. I’m sorry but I don’t see the early age marriage as a sin, except for the fact that someone has tried to make it against the law, it is not particularly heinous.

    Hugh McBryde said this on June 19, 2009 at 2:50 PM ”


    WOW and this Linda Lamb character finds you amusing?

    I guess she never saw the heinous photos of Warren frenching his child brides.

    People who do that belong in prison, where they can hang out with other heinous actors.

    Talk to your wife about it, I’m sure she will set you straight!

  273. Really, Hugh not particularly heinous? Do you mean in the sense of abominable, detestable or shockingly evil? What about compatible partners by age would you say a 10, 20, 30, 40, 50+Year older man is O.K.?
    How many wives is too many 5, 10, 15, 20, 25+Wives?
    Then the children in order to have a well rounded and positive environment how many siblings 12,24,36,48,60+?
    Re-assignments should be after how many years of marriage to the first husband and how many children?
    Does a woman reach her wifely duty at a certain number of children, say 10,12,14,16,18+?
    Does each celestial wife get to keep a cumulative running total between all her husbands or does the number of children zero out after each reassignment?
    Willie Jessop commented publicly that a girl could be technically granted parental permission at 3Years of age, does that seem heinous to you?
    Prophet Mohammed is believed to have married females at 8years of age, does that seem heinous, remember it’s not even a Christian service?

    Wake up, wake up, wake up, Hugh!!!

  274. K. Wright, I agree that the perpetrators sins were against the greater community as well as the individual victims. As such we all have a measure of forgiveness to offer the perpetrators as well as a keen interest in seeing justice served.

    I have believed I have forgiven someone only to realize that in fact what had happened was that I had merely suppressed my anger. That is actually a childish response. True forgiveness comes after you acknowledge you’ve been sinned against and have a right to be angry.

    The problem with trying to forgive a person who hasn’t repented is that you can’t trust them, so you can’t really let down your defenses. However, I’m going to disagree with you all and say that forgiveness is not contingent on the other party’s repentance. I think the parable of the unforgiving servant teaches us otherwise. “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.”

    Forgiveness is a gift to us as much as it is a mandate (the only conditional mandate of the New Testament). If you don’t accept this as a religious construct, then consider it as a psychological one. I first read about this in the research of Dr. Robert Enright of the University of Wisconsin-Madison, whose work dealt with victims of incestuous sexual abuse. If you’re interested in learning more, see here:

  275. Ron, who says there’s no beer or dancing in heaven?

  276. Greetings, I agree with you. Forgiveness isn’t so much to do with the other person who hurt or violated you, but for your self worth. You can forgive someone, and not even make it known, because God knows you forgave. Doesn’t mean you forget at the time you forgave, and I believe God understands that. There may always be a scar but over time, if one trully forgives, the scar no longer is the biggest issue in your life.

  277. Mrs Lamb, we were all created in the image of God, characteristically, body soul and mind. God gets angry, jealous, grieves, and I believe God even laughs at times. So as humans, we all have these emotions. No where did God ever tell us to “keep sweet” never have emotions, never quetion, go along to get along.
    Becomming more like the Christ is a daily matter, with all the rocks, bruises and hurts. Standing up for children is part of that daily walk. If parents aren’t going to protect and defend them against abuses, then others have to.

  278. IMHO, forgiveness is the basis of healing and deliverance. But it isn’t a facile thing on the order of “Let’s everyone keep sweet, children.” It’s deep, gut-wrenching, and ultimately liberating. And as I said before, nobody but Jesus can insist that anyone else do it.

    I’m still trying to imagine a heaven without beer, or better yet, single-malt whisky.

  279. duane wrote “inda, What the anti-flds is employing here is the “rapid fire” method, which simply means to overwhelm your opponet with accusations and assertions so there is not nearly enough time for any person to refute them all.”

    We’ve spent more than a YEAR backing up assertions for you! I’ve linked and researched and linked again. We’ve gone through sex offender registry, child labor violations, welfare fraud, there are notes from a family member exposing him self to a child and no one did anything about it….on and on and on. And you find some wild eyed way to make believe none of that exists! So, there was maybe some abuse in YOUR family and you learned how to make it go away and so now you have to come here and do the same? The people who are wrong are the ones who actually admit what’s going on, not the perps? You talk about a man losing his wife, child, job, home because the leaders are corrupt and everything is done in secret and somehow THAT’s OK WITH YOU? REASONABLE? HAPPENS ALL THE TIME IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD?????

  280. There better be dancing, cause the idea that I’ll have brand new knees to dance with is all that keeps me going some days.

  281. Hugh, what does forgiveness have to do with the LAW and criminal prosecution? Let all the abusers get Jesus in jail; I hear they have great services there.

  282. Hugh McBryde wrote: “If hell was populated on the basis of merit, we’d all go.”

    True as far as it goes. But repentance is required for us to be forgiven by God. It’s a thread that runs from Ninevah through the prophets to John the Baptist to Jesus and his Revelation. (Which gives some credence to K. Wright’s statement about forgiveness.)

    So, no, I don’t expect to see an unrepentant sex abuser in the next mansio in heaven.

  283. Greetings, your forgetting, hugh is a Pharisee!!

  284. Ron, who says there’s no beer or dancing in heaven?

    Hang on, I’ll pull out my revised Southern Baptist Guide to Heaven and check.

  285. ROFL!!!!

  286. There’s a smutty joke in there, Ron.

    I’d tell it but I’m late for dinner.

  287. Greetings, you know I love you dearly, but I am going to say there are some evils that are so bad and so big they cannot be forgiven by a mere human that will have to be left to a higher power than such as me. And child molestation is one of those evils, with the biggest evil being incestious child molestation. To ask a mere human to forgive that evil is asking the impossible. I personally think it is harmful to the victim and therefore puts the blame on the victim if they are told they cannot be a “good” person of worth unless they forgive their abuser. A victims self worth does NOT in anyway depend whether they can forgive the horrible evil that was done to them, the best thing a victim of child molestaion can realize it that they did NOTHING to cause this terrible evil to happen to them, they have done NOTHING to be forgiven for. Their abuser committed a horrible evil against them and that is one evil that will have to be left to god to forgive.

  288. Glad I came back to my computer this afternoon. Had to laugh at a few of these posts and identified with a few. Although my husband and some of my fellow SBC members might be shocked, I happen to agree that there will be dancing in Heaven and wine and all kinds of good things. : ) Im a little hesitant to judge just who will be there, I agree with it only being those who have been forgiven. And ya just gotta ask the Lord for that! One thing more in that list of things God experiences is LOVE.
    That amazing love that covers a multitude of sins. Im glad it has covered mine.

    Oh yeah, and I totally relate on the knees thing!

  289. OK, I know I was raised a Catholic and we supposedly are not allowed to read the Bible without supervision, but I was fairly sure there was at least one condition on God’s forgiveness. Actually, I would count two: faith and repentance.

    Just checking in case I missed a chapter while I was at the ashram.

  290. Betty, right. Humbling ourselves towards repentance and turning away from the sin…….then comes the forgiveness. Its a sad thing when people dont think they need to ‘fess up” and choose to cover up instead. A faith that is not built on truth wont endure.

  291. GFNY wrote “So, no, I don’t expect to see an unrepentant sex abuser in the next mansion in heaven”

    I don’t expect to see someone in heaven who thinks you can F*** your way into Godhood! Quis et Deus?

  292. “Greetings” said: “But repentance is required for us to be forgiven by God.” So it stands to reason that no one would truly repent, that was not first ordained to do so, by God.

    And Betty, “f’ing” your way to heaven of course, won’t get you there, as grace is required and is a free gift of God. It is true though, that whatever method you sought heaven by formerly, is swept aside by grace.

  293. As a person who at 5yrs old was molested for almost a year daily. LadySadie, I understand what you are saying. Although even at 5yrs old I knew what was happening to me wasn’t right, even at 5yrs old. When we moved, I was a lucky one, the abuser was left behind. I never told anyone, some because of fear, some because I felt ashamed, even at that age. When I got older, I remember it would pop in my mind, and I would think, somehow it must of been my fault. After all, Why would this man chose me? I never told anyone what had happened to me until after I got married,because you see, it follows you everywhere you go, every relationship you have. I remember at every age I went through,asking God to forgive me for not telling, or for not doing more to stop it.
    I finally did tell someone, my spouse after a couple of years of marriage,because sex to me was a dirty thing, because of the abuse Id gone through.
    I wasn’t interested nor really willing to participate. Every time I closed my eyes, HIS face was there. After I confided in my spouse, he helped me understand for the first time, I was only a little child, it wasn’t my fault, nor did I contribute to what happened to me. Years have passed,and the face has faded, but I do remember at the age of 40 my prayers changed. I began praying for God to take the man’s face from mind, and help me forgive him, though I would never see him again. It wasn’t important I learned through my prayers, that this man know I had forgiven him, it was for my benefit, for my growth in faith, that God can heal, even the deepest wounds. Did I forget it ever happened. No, I didn’t, but My passion is that whatever I can say or do to keep another little child from experiencing the horror, the self condemnation, the deep hurt that screams out at you in the middle of the night in nightmares, that somehow I can make a difference in someone else’s life. That one more child won’t have to fight the shame, and self doubt that comes from Abuse.

  294. God Bless You Deputydog. Amen.

  295. It’s the scars and the trials that make us strong. I understand Flora and Carolyn and all the others who have experienced abuse. I understand their zeal to stop it. I also understand that while some may think they have no compassion, they are so very wrong. They lived it everyday, some from small children. They don’t want any more children harmed in any way orfor abuse condoned because the doctrine taught in there group says it’s Okay, in the name of God… God would never condone that kind of practice.

  296. “Christ, the royal Master, lead against the foe;
    Forward into battle see His banners go!

    Onward, Christian soldiers marching as to war;
    With the cross of Jesus going on before.”
    Sabine Baring-Gould, 1864

  297. deputydog1, I am glad for you that you feel you have been able to forgive your abuser. But I don’t think you would be a bad person if you were unable to give that forgiveness. I don’t think that your self worth depends on your being able to forgive the person that committed a terribly evil crime against you. I don’t think that God is going to tell the victim that is unable to forgive the molestor that they are unworthy of entry to heaven because the victim was not able to forgive this most evil of crimes. What I pray for all victims of child molestation is the knowledge that they were a child they had no control over what happened to them. They in no way caused this crime, they were not provative, they weren’t so pretty that the molester could not “help” themselves. The little 2 year old girl that gave her father a hug and kiss good night was not purposely “tempting” him to rape her. What I pray for every victim of child molestation is the knowledge that they have done nothing to forgive themselves of. This is the litany that I hate the most, “you will start to heal when you are able to forgive youself”. Someone please tell me what the victim of child molestation did that they need to be forgiven for?

  298. Your right LadySadie,, I didn’t have to or feel I needed to forgive myself, I was just a child. Figuring out it wasn’t my fault, and believing that, helped to set me free.

  299. Figuring that out deputydog is the most enlightening and freeing feeling a victim can ever experience.

  300. Finally forgiving the person who did this to me, helped releave the Hatred and anger Id held for so many years. The anger was destroying me inside,,, NOT the abuser. I prayed for years he was dead, so he couldn’t do this to another child.

  301. It’s in the Lord’s prayer and too frequently spoken and infrequently reflected upon,”…forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us”. If we fail to forgive can we truly hold an expectation of our own desire for forgiveness?

  302. CaJim, If Christ could forgive my sin by giving his life for me, he will help me find a way to forgive others.

  303. Here is my question does anyone really believe Christ is going to forgive a person that rapes a child?

  304. LadySadie, Christ forgave a murderer on the cross next to him.
    If somoeone who abused a child, believes Christ is the Saviour, and trully repents of what he has done, Yes, I think he will forgive that person.

    The only unforgivable sin according to scripture is blashemy of the Holy Spirit.

  305. That’s my understanding anyway.

  306. Its my understanding that forgiveness comes when we repent, which means admitting how bad it is and turning away from that sin, no longer practicing it. Unfortunately we sometimes have the best of intentions and try not to repeat the sin, but occasionally backslide. But we keep on fervently trying, with God’s help, to succeed in breaking free.

    I tell my husband that his sermons are fine, but the thing which really impacts me is being able to believe the Lord’s promises of forgiveness and eternal life.

  307. I don’t know how old Pliggy’s wife was when they got married. I’ve never asked him. I know that they were married sometime before Utah passed its laws prohibiting underage marriage. You can’t get him for polygamy because he only had one wife. You can’t get him for underage marriage either.

    I do know that Pliggy had told me that their wedding day was the happiest day of his life. I believe him. Yes, he truly loved his wife and their children. I think he still does. Just like most mainstream Americans love their families.

    As for what kind of porn he read, I wouldn’t know. Pornography is not something that I usually talk about. I am not interested in pornography. He probably liked to look at Playboy, like many mainstream American men do. I am sure that if he had got excommunicated for kiddie porn, we would all know about.

    The fact that you mentioned kiddie porn suggests that you are fixated on child molestation. I doubt that some of you are able to think of anything else. The way you are constantly accusing the FLDS and ex FLDS of being child molesters reminds me of Nazis accusing the Jews of carrying typhus. Or some other that Hitler made up.

    Wake up and smell the coffee! Not every member of the FLDS is a child molester or a criminal. Not every former member of the FLDS is a child molester. Instead of hating the FLDS and ex FLDS, take the time to get to know them as individuals. Many of them are nice people.

  308. Sadie, you said:

    “Here is my question does anyone really believe Christ is going to forgive a person that rapes a child?”

    Count me as knowing he has done this many times already.

  309. Linda,

    The problem with the FLDS, is there is NO REPENTENCE – NO REMORSE – they are in denial and it appears you are too?

    Have you seen the pictures of Warren deep kissing his 12 yr old brides?

    Do you realize that he, and his group, know all about this, yet have absolutely NO remorse?

    BTW saying “OK I will stop my bad behavior” isnt repenting or being remorseful, its merely to give the illusion they will be lawful.

    But you have seen right here on this thread from Hugh, they dont think there is a problem with a 55 yr old man marrying a 12 yr old girl for the 54th wife.


    Prison cells await them.

  310. And hugh, you dont know squat what Christ has done or not done, youre blowing smoke up your own skirt.

  311. “they dont think there is a problem with a 55 yr old man marrying a 12 yr old girl for the 54th wife.”

    Is that so stamp? When Dan and Louisa were confronted with those pics in court they were shocked and confused, no it wasn’t rehearsed thought you will insist it was knowing darn well you are full of it!

    We still don’t know if it was an honorary thing…betrothal, sealed to propheht, no funny business…that sort of stuff.

    I examined the photos of WJ/MJ, sorta forced given the shrill accusations and your obsession with alleged kiddie porn!
    No, his mouth wasn’t open nor was his tongue down her throat…sorry. His dictations also suggest he did nothing with her sexually, he even made note of “brides” too young to “bear children”. You guys will insist that 12 yr olds are old enough to bear children (news to me), if so then then Warren didn’t know that else he wouldn’t have made that “too young for childbearing” comment to begin with.


  312. “The way you are constantly accusing the FLDS and ex FLDS of being child molesters reminds me of Nazis accusing the Jews of carrying typhus”

    They and medieval Christian “decent folk” accused the Jews of requiring the blood of christian babies for their passover ceremonies, as a result, Jews were frequently massacred and driven from town to town, much like Mormon polygamists, especially FLDS are today. missippiegirl is braggin about how she is going to call LE if any of those flds plygs take up residence anywhere near her. Who knows? Perhaps lynching “plyggers” in the deep south will be a new tradition that “good christians” will enjoy, since lynching blacks is no longer politically correct.

  313. duane more facts will affirm your misconceptions and continuing state of denial, wait until the trials begin and the truth will shine brightly upon your remaining doubts. Duane how many cases of child molestation has been reported by the FLDS Church, without a victim coming forward first and force the matter? You know full well that the FLDS Church would not report child molestation to lawful authorities. Why because they have too much to hide, secret away and keep hidden. Your foolish attempt to draw parallels to Jewish pogroms and the holocaust which are European history is just whacked and not a valid point. Was lynching blacks ever correct or just more recently for you?

  314. duane,

    “We still don’t know if it was an honorary thing…betrothal, sealed to propheht, no funny business…that sort of stuff. ”

    No funny business. (?) really?

    Two parents of a 12 year old girl — physically delivering their pubescent child to the lecherous embrace of a 54 year old man with an existing 80-ish (!) sexual partners….nope, nothing Funny about that at all.

    repulsive, nauseating, abhorrent, loathsome…yes.


    You are so very transparent.

  315. Stamp-

    Christ is my LORD and Savior, having chosen me to life due to no merit of my own. As I mentioned above, he has saved the horrible.

    He has saved me, and I am no prize.

    What Christ washes, in his blood, shed willingly for me in the place of my own, is clean, and clean forever, no matter what any of us may have done.

    ANYTHING short of unbelief, can be, and is forgiven.

  316. duane wrote “Jews were frequently massacred and driven from town to town, much like Mormon polygamists”

    Was there a massacre in the last century or so that I missed? I don’t remember any Mormon polygamists being killed of late. Way to exaggerate, duane. Have you found any gas chambers in Texas, yet? Other than the ‘cement kiln’ on YFZ, that is?

  317. Linda Lamb wrote “Its my understanding that forgiveness comes when we repent, which means admitting how bad it is and turning away from that sin, no longer practicing it. Unfortunately we sometimes have the best of intentions and try not to repeat the sin, but occasionally backslide.”

    When that ‘sin’ is child abuse, I think the person should be repenting from jail, where they have so much less option to backslide right into some child’s body. Forgive me, Lord, if I am not as forgiving as you are.

    Hugh and Linda, forgiveness of God is all wonderful and available, but what does that have to do with the Law? Do we let convicted killers go free, just because they get Jesus 15 minutes after they are sentenced? No. We enforce the laws of THIS world.

    Any man who says that he can and does speak for God and has done nothing but His will, when his actions include child rape…not so much with the repentance, can I have a heaping serving of pride?

  318. April Day. Utah changed it from 16 to 18, with some sliding scale on parental consent (registered at the courthouse) and legal marriage (ditto). So having sex with a 15 year old without any legal over view is, was and will be illegal. That ‘they changed the law, it’s a trivial detail, if she stands up straight she’s tall enough to ride this ride” stuff is BULL HOCKEY LIES and YOU KNOW IT! She was 15 (according to him) and they weren’t actually married and no judge reviewed her parent’s consent!

    You, also, have been reading this stuff for a year and you should have MEMORIZED the age of consent laws in Utah and Texas by now, we have told you about them so many darned times! They consistently break the law and the LDS sympathizing government of Utah and Arizona turns its back on the young girls and does NOTHING to stop the next rape! They believe that a ‘religious’ man should be able to rape whoever he thinks God gave to him. That stuff has GOT TO STOP! Not OK! Got it?

  319. Linda, you seem like a nice lady. How many sex offenders near you have you been kind and forgiving too lately? Visit any jails or sex offender programs?

  320. suane they were shocked at the pictures because they knew the secret was out.

    And DNA will prove Plyg child bride marriages ARENT honorary.

    I have already linked you to Warrens dictations where he threatens a child bride of his with being sent to a house of hiding, and her parents exing if she doesnt start running up to him with eagerness.

    Its been public knowledge there are childbrides in the FLDS / plyg sects for over 50 years, no wait, 150 years, if any plyg acts shocked that another plyg took a child bride its because he wanted her first!

    And Warren has more than his fair share!

  321. Betty, Unfortunately Ive seen more than my share of sex offenders. Most recently a close friend was shocked when her 4 year old daughter began to quite innocently reveal that her daddy was molesting her. It was a horrible shock which led to arrest, conviction and jail. Forgiveness has been a long hard journey in which divorce was a part. It’s hard to feel sorry for an offender and trust just isnt there any longer. I havent done any jail visiting, but I hope I have not been unkind in my dealings with other sinners. I might have been unkind in my thoughts and words about them. I have found that in any sin committed against me peace has been found once I was able to forgive. Not easy, but possible through the Lord’s help. Betty, I dont mean to come across as holier-than-thou or “religious.” Im just a forgiven woman of faith who tries to understand others.

  322. Too funny that duane would hold Dan Jessop up as some “example”. He’s talking about diddling Dan, the one that molested that same sister who he was being questioned about.

  323. LadySadie, I agree emphatically that victims should not be made to feel inferior because they can’t forgive. That was why I said that it was presumptuous of Linda Lamb to insist that we ought to be charitable toward the FLDS. Because forgiveness is a matter between each individual and God and it is irrelevant as a social policy.

    In ‘Biblical Healing and Deliverance,’ Chester and Betsy Kylstra say that victims of sexual abuse find the process of forgiving extremely difficult and urge the healer to go slow. But I still think that in the end, the blessings of forgiveness come to the forgiver, not the forgiven.

    I recently read a lovely parable of forgiveness in an otherwise trifling (but fun) novel:

    Two monks at the side of a river see a poor woman with her child, both too frail to ford the water. The first monk says, “We are required to help the poor but we are also forbidden to touch women. What shall we do?” Without comment, the second monk picks the woman and her child up, carries them across the river, and deposits them wordlessly on the other side.

    The two monks continue on their way. After a long while, the first monk remonstrates, “But we are not allowed to touch women!”

    And the second monk answers, “So why are you still carrying her?”

    (The Castlemaine Murders, by Carrie Greenwood)

  324. Linda

    Have you seen the photos of Warren deep kissing those children?

  325. Deb Lee wrote: “The fact that you mentioned kiddie porn suggests that you are fixated on child molestation. I doubt that some of you are able to think of anything else. The way you are constantly accusing the FLDS and ex FLDS of being child molesters reminds me of Nazis accusing the Jews of carrying typhus. Or some other that Hitler made up.”

    Sometimes I despair of you, Deb. This whole case turns on child sexual assault, which is a pervasive pattern in the FLDS.

    For the record, I liked Pliggy when he used to play nice. I think his porn problem—and what that was, I don’t know—is a sign of spiritual injury and I pity him for it.

  326. Lady

    Oh right! Yeah he was shocked! Some other guy got his sister too!

    He hoped to hell MJ doesnt tell Warren what he did to her!

    Otherwise he would get exed and then some!

    I wouldnt be surprised if his blood didnt drain from his face!

  327. Hugh McBryde, I have no quarrel with your description of your own salvation. But I have a question for you: what do you mean by calling yourself a “modern Pharisee”? I can’t see how either accepted definition of the term ‘Pharisee’ fits with what you just said.

    The historical heirs of the Biblical Pharisees are the practitioners of Rabbinic Judaism (or what most of us know simply as ‘Judaism’). In this sense polygamy has been expressly forbidden to the descendents of the Pharisees since Gershom ben Judah so decreed in 1000 CE.

    Jesus also used the term to point up one of the essential subtexts of his ministry—the gap which exists between empty law-following and loving one’s fellow. He called the Pharisees “blind guides,” “hypocrites,” “whitewashed tombs,” “fools,” and “a brood of vipers.”

    That understanding of ‘Pharisaical’ is at odds with your simple statement that in Christ you are redeemed.

  328. The Deed of Trust just posted here is interesting. Seems to me that it’s a clever ruse to get the ranch out of Merril’s hands and into those of someone less likely to go to jail or have their property seized under RICO statutes.

  329. Stamp, I saw them.

  330. Linda I guess if the Christian tradition spoke anywhere about bigamy as an acceptable form of matrimony your overlooking of this fact would make sense to me. If looking upon the San Angelo Indictments as wrong do you argue that the search warrants were brought improperly or that changing the minimum marrying age from 14 to 16 years is wrong. In the first instance the legal review and ruling is still pending and in the latter the limit being raised brought Texas in line with the majority of States in our Union. If you are not practicing holier-than-though mentality and just a religious woman trying to understand then I will look for your very same proselytizing posts on Hugh and other proFLDS blogs and websites. I think not a chance that you would dare try to ‘sing to the choir’ of the FLDS on any of their websites, just here and why is that? Linda I am familiar with your comments and posts in the past so be prepared to understand my questions of you in the future.
    Hugh Mc the last time you posted on this blog you were spouting the belief that a conspiracy by different police forces were conspiring to make arrests of FLDS attorneys or that anyone who failed to agree with you was naive. Now on your blog you readily admit that Wally Bugden has pled his guilt and paid his fine? Do you have something to say on this topic? Coming back here and having the Bible tucked under your arm is your unholy attempt to claim some moral high ground but your phoney preaching underscores your deeper need to be right and only confess your wrongs on your blog site. Care to recant your past conspiracy posting to our readers?

  331. Looks like a lost boy and two of his Colorado City friends were arrested in CC last night for alcohol and drug related offenses. Such a shame. A part of me feels very sorry for these boys.

  332. Oops – actually they were arrested in Hildale.

  333. Yup Two Barlows and One Bistline,, all arrested by shem jessop

  334. Linda, as a fellow Baptist-daughter of an ordained minister of the faith, I have some questions for you about your friend. If your friend hadn’t believed her 4 year old daughter, or worse, told her to keep sweet and quiet because fathers had been doing this for hundreds, thousands of years and she needed to get over it, how would you then feel? Would you still feel such charity in your heart and wonder how they were doing (in the same way you do for the flds) when you saw them heading to church as a family? I mean, what if she hadn’t faced the truth, confronted, reported and divorced the abuser of her daughter, would you not feel some sense of rage on behalf of the child, an urgent demand for justice? Or would you just admire your friend for her sweet demeanor and her love of family, evidenced by her keeping the family together? Linda, even Jesus could find righteous anger over children and desecration of the temple. Try, Linda, try to see what we are seeing.

  335. Linda, who deserves our compassion and help more, the victim or the abusers? The child that is being given to old men to rape or the mother that is giving the child to the old men?

  336. “have already linked you to Warrens dictations where he threatens a child bride of his with being sent to a house of hiding,”

    Yes, I saw that, also said we don’t know context, did Warren say that in a fit of anger? Then again, considering his authority as Prophet, that would still be out of line. We don’t know the story behind that episode, without any testimony by her, Warren, and others who may have been involved…we will never know.

    I agreee that MJ would be a “child bride”, but the 16-17 year olds? I guess it depends on geographical location and point in time.

    As I have said before, Whatever Warren, Wendell, Merrill, or Barbara may be guilty of, has no bearing on the other thousands of Fundie Mormons.

  337. “Looks like a lost boy and two of his Colorado City friends were arrested in CC last night for alcohol and drug related offenses. Such a shame. A part of me feels very sorry for these boys.”

    nearcreek, nice website, what about all those other people arrested in Washington County, do you feel sorry for them too?

  338. Sorry, duane I don’t dismiss innocent ‘Templebuilders’ that install beds, or families that hang convicted felons gallery photo over their fireplaces, or drive boys on adult construction work crews, or teach indoctrination in schoolhouses, or make hand sewn wedding dresses for Child Brides, our stand silent when asked to eyewitness, or harbor a fugitive, or financially support criminal activities, etc. You keep proclaiming their innocence duane but if 9 statutory rapes occurred just at the YFZ Ranch, then Pringle, Mancos, Bountiful & Short Creek means there is an unseen crime spree being conducted and witnessed by a innocent FLDS Church congregation. How many eyewitness gave sworn statements from the YFZ Ranch? Solidarity of EVIL and organized ‘mafioso’ styled hypocrites every one.

  339. Another question for Linda: Linda, as horrible as your friend’s experience was – for all, I am sure, would you not agree that your friend’s response, as well as that of law enforcement and the courts, was absolutely necessary for everyone involved? Does not your friend’s daughter have a better chance of healing now that she has been vindicated and protected from further abuse? Is it not better for the husband to have been confronted with his sin, forcibly stopped and imprisoned where he has an opportunity to ponder his guilt and seek reconciliation with God and man? It is so hard and so true what Jesus said: the truth will set you free.

  340. Do Ron Ron is it true o tell me it ain’t true that in heaven there ain’t no beer.

    Now, I don’t like beer myself, for one thing beer takes up too much room, but some people I like a lot like beer.

  341. in heaven there ain’t no beer

    When I was much younger, I played tuba in an Um-Pa band. (Yes, I actually wore lederhosen) One of the songs was a German song about in Heaven there is no beer.

    The rough English translation of the song is:

    In heaven there is no beer,
    that’s why we drink it here
    When we are gone from here
    All our friends will be drinking all our beer

  342. interesting article in TIME today on Polygamy and rape in South Africa..,8599,1906000,00.html?iid=tsmodule

  343. Ron, that wasn’t in your revised Southern Baptist Guide to Heaven. Very sensible of you to consult a Lutheran on the subject.

    However, the lyricist of “In Heaven There is No Beer” actually made an error in translating Martin Luther’s 96th thesis, which was actually on this subject, and which said, “Whoever drinks beer, he is quick to sleep; whoever sleeps long, does not sin; whoever does not sin, enters Heaven! Thus, let us drink beer!”

    You wore lederhosen, you say? Hmmn.

    The Koran says that there will be rivers of wine in heaven, which is most peculiar since Muslims forbid its consumption here.

  344. Interesting article, DD. Nice guy, that (polygamist) president Jacob Zuma. He raped his late friend’s daughter, but she was asking for it by wearing traditional African clothing.

    Hopefully the cosmic joke will be on him—he didn’t use a condom and she was HIV positive.

    But so much for the idea that polygamy will help control the unrestrained male libido.

  345. Yuppers!!!

  346. Ya Know Im sure there will be dancin in heaven, cause King David danced in the streets before God… They also had musical instruments in the old testament…

  347. Ron you aren’t one of my brothers, are you? Sousaphone, lederhosen, oompa …

  348. Please go to Open Discussion 5 on the front page …

  349. Greetings, I suggest you read the first post on my blog, back in 2006, for an answer to your Pharisee question.

  350. Hugh, few are that interested in you – and that includes future polygamist brides – OF ANY AGE.

  351. Stamp, you seem to adore me. “Greetings from NY” has a query about why I used the name Pharisee.

  352. deputydog1 said this on June 20, 2009 at 5:00 PM :
    Ya Know Im sure there will be dancin in heaven, cause King David danced in the streets before God… They also had musical instruments in the old testament…

    REPLY: The dancing is not the crime, but what kind, and what is in the heart, or the throb manifest elsewhere. Have any of you ladies overcome your immorality? You men? I think that would be best for you. You cannot love the Lord, or the pure element of the Spirit, and the gross element of the body. This is what determines heaven or hell: Purity vs defilement.

  353. Sherril Zitting (onthestreet) I will test my morality against yours anyday dude!!

  354. Ahh, but first I am not “Sherrill Zitting”, and secondly wherein is the test? Do you breed? That is immoral. Thirdly, your very name says “dog”, and what do dogs do?

  355. Sure you are Sherrill Zitting, what’s wrong you hate the name given you???
    Do you breed??? Or just sit around and masterbate! I would guess the second. Just a guess though. Chances are, since you were kicked out, you were probably caught.. either that or you were molesting some little girl.
    But since you think like animal, Ill treat you like one!

  356. deputydog1 said this on June 16, 2009 at 4:33 PM
    duane dude? Flds don’t live in Saudi Arabia, and they aren’t a sovergien country. They have NO right to enforce a dress code when people come to town. Sorry bubba,, won’t happen!

    REPLY: See, your immorality is showing. FLDS style is for purposes of morality and indicative of the spiritual “fine linen” of the Word and the Law. Opposing that, and it’s enforcement within a religious community is an assault on the Constitutional right to maintain the community’s morals.

  357. My name is with “El”, which is God. You spell it with “ill”, having ill will towards morals, and those who seek to uphold them. Any kind of sexuality is wrong, and anti-Christ, see. So I hope you can overcome that too. That is what we all came to this earth to do. Then you can enjoy the presence of prophets, of angels, and of gods, and never until then. Their presence will always be a hell to you, like it is now.

  358. Street

    So Warren kicks out dozens of men and boys for not dressing properly?


    They dress goofy because – THEY ARE GOOFY!

  359. You mean community morals like raping little girls? Or brother’s molesting sisters? How bout boys molesting boys in Flds Sherrell?
    Becausae it’s been happening as part of Flds community values for generations.

  360. And I guess Warren enjoyed making families lives hell by tearing them apart, reassigning them, then rejecting th UEP and Short Creek people!

  361. What were you kicked out for Sherrell?

  362. deputydog1 said this on June 23, 2009 at 6:44 PM
    Becausae it’s been happening as part of Flds community values for generations.

    REPLY: Nah, not the least part of the values. Now, you ARE correct, shit happens, but that kind of stuff belongs in the toilet, and by God and by law, that is where it goes. It cannot be otherwise. However, in the world (that is, what us FLDS have learned to be “the world”, or anything outside of those morals, immorality is now pandemic and destroying the nation from within as a raging fire. Still, like we have also been taught, there are some out in the world who are virtuous and will be gathered with the Lord and the saints when He comes again.

    Stamp said this on June 23, 2009 at 6:44 PM
    They dress goofy because – THEY ARE GOOFY!

    REPLY: 1 Peter 2:9 (KJV) ~ But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth… Goofy, Peculiar, Absolutely. Anything else is truly, how shall we say, well…truly goofy, and sick, and doomed.

    Stamp said this on June 23, 2009 at 6:46 PM
    And I guess Warren enjoyed making families lives hell by tearing them apart, reassigning them, then rejecting th UEP and Short Creek people!

    REPLY: 34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

    35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

    36And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

    37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

    38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

    39He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

    40He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

    41He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward (Matt.10:34).

    Kicked out? I was never kicked out. The prophets are gentle to the gentle, and a lion against beasts. Brother Jeffs and his son Warren asked me to “not attend meeting”. So that is what I have done. But as the Prophet Warren teaches, “There will be a scattering, and then a gathering”.

  363. So Street – Being “Peculiar” seems to me, that PUNK ROCKERS win that game hands down!

    And to excuse the ripping apart of families that way? For shame.

    And I’m SURE you were asked to “Not attend meeting – EVER”. . . So why you would pretend to suck up to them is pretty funny.

    You arent getting your three wives, hasnt the message been made clear enough?

  364. “36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.”

    Oh you got that FLDS right!

    Another note, is you point to Warren as “Brother Jeffs son Warren”

    So I reckon he isnt your prophet then?

    Are you one who will admit he stole the keys?

  365. Stamp said this on June 24, 2009 at 8:37 AM
    And I’m SURE you were asked to “Not attend meeting – EVER”. . . So why you would pretend to suck up to them is pretty funny. You arent getting your three wives, hasnt the message been made clear enough? “36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.” You point to Warren as “Brother Jeffs son Warren”. So I reckon he isnt your prophet then? Are you one who will admit he stole the keys?

    REPLY: If a saint stands at the rack hay or no hay, even FOREVER, he is the better, for it is NOT the sexuality that the saints are after, but the extension of God’s children into the expanding universe, an eternal increase. And that can only occur if sexuality is eliminated completely from your psyche and from your life. Sowing to the flesh is death. Sowing to the spirit is life eternal. No, they are not my foes, but my eternal soulmates, and I glory in their faithfulness to the end. Being a son does not equate to being a false prophet, but quite the opposite.

  366. Street

    So… Did you read where Warren said the UEP and those remaining in Shortcreek are rejected of God?

    He is telling you – YOU’RE WRONG. YOU’RE REJECTED not just by him but by GOD.

    Read it yet?

  367. street needs mental help, not blog help!!! The zittings have a contruction business, and I don’t understand why IRS hasn’t busted them already?

  368. God is our help, and our salvation.

  369. I am wondering, is it possible that many of the flds members are of a low intelligence quotient, due to incestual practices over time. The faxt that many people have participated in tghings that are antithetical to their own desires, and moral code, religion aside seems exceptionally odd. I really wonder if this man and his other criminal cohorts preyed on those not just naive, or young or ignorant but also of a low intellectual caliber.

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