Continued from Open Discussion thread. General discussion about FLDS-related issues.
~ by FLDS TEXAS on June 2, 2009.
Posted in Open Discussion Tags: Open Discussion
Hi FLDS Texas,
Thanks for opening a second thread – the last one had gotten really “scroll-y”. Appreciate all the work you do!
it’s being said that marriages are still taking place in secret and men are still being kicked out and divested of their families. Some say Willie Jessop took an underage bride in the last couple of weeks. He may be up to 5 now. And 4 Timpson men were recently kicked out and told to leave UEP land …and the directive didn’t come from the UEP fiduciary, who is the only one with the authority to do that.
Now just to make sure I understand, because when a community tends to have only 3 last names it gets a little confusing — You’re talking about Donut-Willie-the-Thug-and-Mouthpiece-except-when-under-Oath …Willie Jessop, and not just your run of the mill Jessop, yes?
Ye Gods, what poor teenager has been assigned to crawl under the covers with that toad? poor girl. I find it hard to believe he is getting a reward for proficiency — he seems like a total F-up.
And as for people still getting canned from the UEP — why, why,why do these folks actually leave their homes? Are there weapons involved? other than gross stupidity.
Actually, the whole UEP thing is not terribly compelling for me — if you have witnessed others being utterly discarded and still paid into the Ponzi scheme, you’ve really asked for it. “A fool and his money are soon parted” was never so true as the UEP. sigh.
TexasMom said this on June 2, 2009 at 3:25 AM
Thanks for the update Texasmom, with all the men getting kicked out, pretty soon it will only be 3 or 4 men with 1200 wives each.
It seems that kicking men out and reassigning women and children is a major FLDS pastime. How can any one man keep 1200 wives happy? Beats me!
Anyway, keep up with the good work, nothing beats facts.
jimbo said this on June 2, 2009 at 3:42 AM
TwxasMom – the one and only Willie Jessop. So ..wonder who’s playing Prophet now.
FLDS TEXAS said this on June 2, 2009 at 4:08 AM
For those who are interested,
There follows 2 blog entries from the Imam Rashid Patch of Oakland CA. It is the only Muslim commentary I have ever read that discusses polygamy from the standpoint of American jurisprudence. I found the entries at the website Polygamy411.com. I copied the whole text because I don’t know how to post it as a link. (Sorry for the length.)
1. Rashid Patch
March 23rd, 2009 on 4:05 pm
Polygamy is a neutral descriptive term; the word neither legitimizes nor de-legimizes anything. As it happens, polygamy is presently illegal in the United States. It is legal in some countries.
Do the Muslim men practicing polygamy in the U.S. actually understand that they are in violation of the law when they do it? The niyyat to contract an illegal polygamous marriage evidences clear intent to limit the first wife’s rights of consortium, at the least. To deny or limit consortium would of itself be clear grounds for divorce in most courts in the U.S., and would also be grounds for divorce under shariah. The niyyat to contract an illegal polygamous marriage also evidences clear intent to deprive the second wife of what should be her rights under law as a fully legal spouse; and unjust dealings are also forbidden by shariah.
If the first marriage was actually legal – instead of simply living together without benefit of legal marriage – then the second marriage at minimum violated the implied contract with the first Muslim wife when they married under the laws of the U.S.. This would seemingly have voided the contract of nika.
It should also be noted that in a number of states, legal marriage can be established by declaration, i.e., simply stating that someone is your spouse constitutes a legal marriage, and the dissolution of that legal marriage requires action by a divorce court just as a marriage formally recorded with a marriage license.
This has nothing at all to do with polygamy in shariah, or polygamy in other countries or cultures. This has nothing to do with how many wives the Prophet Muhammad (s.a.s.) had, or how many wives the Qur’an allows. This has to do with the law in the United States – and if Muslims are living in the U.S., they are bound by the laws here, and by their contracts here; and they are bound by the laws and contracts here as a shariah obligation! If anyone claims to be exempt from civil law, they are absolutely not to be trusted in their interpretation of fiqh.
Just about every instance of polygamy I have encountered here in the U.S. was simply “shaking up” and calling it Islam. I have seen Muslim men contract informal “Islamic marriages” without bothering to legalize them, and later simply walk away from the marriage when it became inconvenient for them. In many cases, they may not even bother to announce the “marriage” publicly. They hardly ever trouble to write up a contract of nika. Then, they give themselves an “Islamic divorce”. I know of some who have done this repeatedly. This is no less vile when done by Muslims, than when done by non-Muslims, and to hear it defended is frankly an insult to Islam. To say “talaq” might constitute a divorce under shariah; but if you contracted an Islamic marriage in the U.S., you have also contracted it under the marriage laws of the U.S., and you still have to go the whole divorce court route before you are legally divorced.
Shariah simply does not allow us to just make things up as we go along; but far, far too many Muslims keep trying to do this. Shariah requires that all contract obligations must be honored, unless they entail a violation of Allah’s commands. Civil obligations – secular laws and contracts – are therefore fully obligations under shariah. It is completely incorrect to contend that rights under shariah may not be limited by civil law or contract. Shariah allows you to make a contract wherein you waive certain of your rights. There are many things allowed by Allah, that one may decide not to do, or contract not to do. A contract of nika that specifies that there may be no second wife is entirely proper and enforceable in shariah, and this sort of clause in marriage contracts has been accepted from the earliest period of Islam. The civil law of the U.S. places this clause implicitly in every contract of marriage made in this country; and having made the contract in this country, those implied terms remain in full force and effect, even if you were to leave for another.
It is one of the signs of jahliyya to make up mocking names for those one opposes; and so Muslims who try to abide by the laws of the land, and who struggle to restrain those who would violate those laws to satisfy the desires of their nafs by exploiting Muslim women, will be called mocking names.
If Muslims hope or intend to change the laws of marriage in the United States, they will have to demonstrate that they intend to abide by the law if and when it changed. Showing unconcern with civil law is simply a sign of unconcern with divine law, or with any law at all.
The American Muslim men who insist that having multiple wives as their “inalienable right”, despite it’s present illegality, in doing so grievously neglect the rights of Muslim women and egregiously exploit them. They not only greatly damage the cause of Islam in this country, they seriously delay any possibility of the reform of marriage laws to accommodate polygamy while giving clear legal protections to women and children.
Wa Allaho ‘Alim!
As-Salaamo Aleykum, wa Rahmatullah, wa Barakata Hu!
March 23rd, 2009 on 4:18 pm
What people keep ignoring is, that even without having taken out a marriage license, if you tell anybody that you are married to someone, under the laws of California (and a number of other states) then you are legally married – it cost Lee Marvin $5,000,000 in “palimony” because he didn’t think that “marriage by declaration” really counted. But it does! In fact, just living together can be determined to be evidence of legal mariage.
Islam insists that marriage has to be done with a public declaration; and that a marriage has to have a written down marriage contract signed by both parties; and that the woman, at least, has to have a qualified legal representative looking out for her interest and checking over the contract; and that the husband is required to give the bride a gift of some considerable value; and that he has to give that to her right then, unless she says another due date in the written contract…
Then, Islam teaches that there should be no divorce without having tried mediation beforehand; and requires a “cooling off” period (of the idah); and the divorce is also a public declaration; and child support is a religious obligation; and spousal support during the idah is also a religious obligation…
And I don’t think very many of the Muslim brothers in this country who are going on about polygamy are paying any attention to these shariah obligations at all.
Wa Allaho ‘Alim
Judith said this on June 2, 2009 at 12:50 PM
So are we playing musical Prophets now, or is Warren accepting tattle tales and then putting out retaliation?
Stamp said this on June 2, 2009 at 5:37 PM
Judith—that is a great post, and an unusual one, because it points out the illegitimacy of practicing polygamy where it’s illegal from within a religious system that accepts it.
Greetings from New York said this on June 2, 2009 at 5:51 PM
I don’t usually have time for the blogs but thought I’d take a minute to say HI to everyone, including Duane.
As to locating safe places to sleep… Well all I can say is that IF we were to stay at a motel and Cousin DEE or Cousin WILLIE decided they wanted to request an adjoining room I can only promise I would have a heck of a better time than they would… You see 2 WOMEN with ATTITUDE are way better equipped than any 10 MEN with EGO
As for gun ports.. Who needs em? After all Willie is such a HUGE target and since the FLDS believe they are the only ones worthy of God’s blessings and everything of God is magnetically drawn to them, anything we throw at them should instantly be drawn to them by their magnetic personalities.
Now a little lesson about the 3 levels of Heaven… They lied again. There are actually 4 levels of Heaven in the FLDS, the TELESTIAL, the TERRESTRIAL, the CELESTIAL BUT…. the level of Heaven where they become ‘God’ is really the MOLESTIAL KINGDOM.
Hey, I received that in a revelation/hallucination on a hill in a forest and it was printed on a silver cake dish but I had to give it back to an angel named “Bring’em Young” after I read it so I can’t show it to anybody. Sorry. You’ll just have to take my word for it.
Okay everybody send me your tithing…. :~)))
Flora said this on June 2, 2009 at 6:27 PM
Is it true all those attorneys are being paid in underaged females rather than cash?
GrannyToad said this on June 2, 2009 at 6:43 PM
Flora that was too funny!
cajIM said this on June 2, 2009 at 7:48 PM
That was great. 🙂 Now, if i send my tithes to you, can I have 3 husbands? I will need them for all these babies I’m going to have.
it’s really great hearing from you, and I hope you and Boots have a wonderful CAREFUL time.
mississippigirl said this on June 2, 2009 at 7:51 PM
LMAO!! Great to see your post! You still have the Penishood club shaking in their skivies.
Stamp said this on June 2, 2009 at 11:25 PM
shoot, i want 3 husband to do the chores and yardwork. i want a cabana boy for the other things.
Anonymous said this on June 3, 2009 at 12:30 AM
i’m rolling on the floor laughing at the different accounts of the same hearing that are posted on txbluesman’s blog and bill m’s blog. i can’t believe they are even talking about the same hearing.
Anonymous said this on June 3, 2009 at 12:49 AM
so if willie and others have married to underaged girls or otherwise since the prophet has been in prison, who’s being his scribe? surely he can’t be expected to write down his own memos and such.
Anonymous said this on June 3, 2009 at 12:51 AM
I wonder does Willie carry videos of The Act with him.
GrannyToad said this on June 3, 2009 at 1:23 AM
Or does Viagra get ‘er done.
GrannyToad said this on June 3, 2009 at 1:25 AM
Gee Flora, I’m not FLDS and probably smoke as much as you do.
Nothing but ad hominems. I’ll say again…if the FLDS wanted their enemies dead and were willing to carry out the act…You, Kdee, and others would have been whacked a long time ago.
If any violent acts occur, I anticipate it will be against members of the FLDS, not the other way around.
duane said this on June 3, 2009 at 1:27 AM
duane, You are the only one who posts about violence done to or by the flds. The other posters seldom, if ever, mention it. I think you should cut all the talk about violence.
ale wife said this on June 3, 2009 at 2:11 AM
I don’t think she was trying to impress you, duane.
Good luck with your tour.
Betty said this on June 3, 2009 at 2:11 AM
duane your interest seems fall in two categories, sex with any age female that walks and violence of any nature. Are you on of them sadists?? that whips females, or handcuffs them to your bed posts?
deputydog1 said this on June 3, 2009 at 2:30 AM
“Hey, I received that in a revelation/hallucination on a hill in a forest and it was printed on a silver cake dish but I had to give it back to an angel named “Bring’em Young” after I read it so I can’t show it to anybody. Sorry. You’ll just have to take my word for it.”
I like your sense of humor, Flora. Good to see you have one — you always look grim in the pictures. And I commend you on speaking out against abuse. I hope all goes well with you. 😀
Rebeckah said this on June 3, 2009 at 2:40 AM
Flora, I bought your book several months ago,,, really liked it,, and was great insight into the lawlessness of flds… Thank you for writing it….
deputydog1 said this on June 3, 2009 at 2:42 AM
I have a question for you OCD folks who might visit here. Has anyone ever bothered to take a look at how many of these men in plural marriages have had one or more of their wives leave? Because they’re always claiming that polygamy beats divorce, but I rather suspect that you’d be hard pressed to find a polygynous man (particularly one with more than 3 wives) who hasn’t been “divorced” at least once. So, anyone want to do any numbers so I can crow? 😆
Rebeckah said this on June 3, 2009 at 2:44 AM
The divorce rate is like 50%, so if a dude has 2 wives, odds are one will get divorced.
deputydawg, your goofy comments demonstrate your poor insight into others. Borrowing from “concerned” on the plural life, it seems that the only ones who want to control what others do with their lives are the plyg haters.
GFNY, I didn’t think anyone on this blog is trying to impress me, but do suspect kdip sicced her pal on me, who knows? maybe we’ll share a dance one day. Does anyone know if kdip kept her job?
So I mention violence and now its “i always post about violence”, kdip was soliciting clandestine safe houses for her and her bud, doesn’t that imply violence on her part?
duane said this on June 3, 2009 at 4:14 AM
“Okay everybody send me your tithing….”
Yeah Fl___, I bet you got a nice racket going yourself.
Some of us actually work for a living.
duane said this on June 3, 2009 at 4:19 AM
Look, you shot your foot off! Dont be so hard on yourself. If you aimed higher you would be talking in a squesky voice right now!
Stamp said this on June 3, 2009 at 11:44 AM
duane: “kdip was soliciting clandestine safe houses for her and her bud, doesn’t that imply violence on her part”
This phrase makes no sense what so ever. She is soliciting safe house, not because Flora and Boots want to commit violence, but to prevent flds goons like Dee Jessop from intimidating and perhaps comitting violence against Flora and Boots.
ale wife said this on June 3, 2009 at 12:47 PM
Flora, I want that silver cake dish!
Your post was priceless.
Also want you to know that whenever someone blasts you or Carolyn on the blogs, I send a donation to childbrides,org.
C-M said this on June 3, 2009 at 1:51 PM
HELLO to the good folks at New Era, and UT, AZ, and TX AG offices.
And respective Governors.
Stamp said this on June 3, 2009 at 2:57 PM
Are you a good neighbor? SAY HI!
Stamp said this on June 3, 2009 at 2:59 PM
Say, doesnt that suck that Shurtleff is embroiled in that 100 million PONZI scheme?
That must really chap his Senate running hide!
Stamp said this on June 3, 2009 at 3:00 PM
Mayor Rogre Hedgecock of San Diego had a similar deal, he got in beaucoup trouble over it.
But hay, Utah runs things different! They didnt earn the title “Nations Fraud Capital” fer nuthin!
Stamp said this on June 3, 2009 at 3:03 PM
And how are the good folks at Harris Harry and HArris down in Austin today?
Keeping up with the Jonsies? Read how the FLDS attorneies got PWNED by Natalie in court over on coramnonjudice.blogspot.com ?
Stamp said this on June 3, 2009 at 3:08 PM
duane, I don’t hate human beings whether polygamist or not. I do hate thier actions because it contributes to abuse. It’s amazing duane that you support lawlessness, just because it had the name RELIGION in it. Most abuses through out history have been caused by religions. And religion use the word doctrine to condone the abuses that occur to women and children and yes even men.
The burden these types of religions come to bare on the taxpayer.
We pay for their lifestyle, because they cannot afford 10 wives and 30kids.
deputydog1 said this on June 3, 2009 at 3:14 PM
It seems Mr shurtliff has some splaining to do!! uh huh yup!
deputydog1 said this on June 3, 2009 at 3:15 PM
Re, the statistics of successful marriage. I have read many personal stories of a man who ‘converts’ to polygamy. More likely than not his first wife, who married legally with the assumption of monogamy ends up leaving him, even if she was at first open to the idea. I am sure that it ‘works’ better if the wives know from the start what they are getting into. Of course, if you are only 14 you don’t know what you are getting into in any case.
Betty said this on June 3, 2009 at 3:21 PM
He supports lawlessness because it has the word ‘sex’ in it.
Betty said this on June 3, 2009 at 3:30 PM
Vicky Prunty was her husband’s first wife,, and they were pretty happy till they decided to follow polygamy… Her husband wanted another wife. He met Mary Batchelor, you know the one with Principal voices,, and Vicky agreed to have her as a sister wife.
But, seems Mary wanted to be the favorite wife, and it caused all kinds of crap within the marriage… So Vicky Left, got a divorce.
Although Mary Batchelor says shes a plural wife at heart, she has NEVER allowed another woman to become her sister wife. Ironic isn’t it?
Vicky Prunty is with Tapestry.
deputydog1 said this on June 3, 2009 at 3:34 PM
Joe’s first wife Emma hated him for his indescretions.
It’s all documented – but in the end she didnt leave him – but rather she convinced him to turn himself in.
Stamp said this on June 3, 2009 at 3:37 PM
dualing plig mama’s!?
And the one who allowed it is against it, the one who wont let there be another wife is for it – – Strange…
NO – – –
S T R A N G E
Stamp said this on June 3, 2009 at 3:40 PM
Yup, and of course the ONE for it, and hasn’t allowed it, is the one that has MORE readers than Tapestry and more money donated. Now that Sucks! huh?
deputydog1 said this on June 3, 2009 at 3:54 PM
The plig lobby once had the Governor in its pocket- M “O” Leavitt.
But my, times change. Shurtleff is halfway in their pocket, but now thet he is beleagured in campaign finance and crony-ism with other fraudsters his days are numbered.
The old saying the “Road apple have his the oscillating blades” is a good term for Utah politics and FLDS issues right now.
Its Pinata time some people will come up losers. Are you the pinata or candy catcher?
Stamp said this on June 3, 2009 at 4:08 PM
Im wondering if Shurtliff’s sudden turn around on Flds, isn’t due to the fact, HE knew the scandal of him being involved with Kroeber was going to come out to the public?
He certainly is going to have to do lots of shuffling to get away from the donations thing.
deputydog1 said this on June 3, 2009 at 4:25 PM
Two years ago Shurtleff was calling Jeffs “leader of his personal Taliban” and how he was gonna get um! Stop abuses in Polygamy, etc etc.
Since the raid, he has backed down, and backed out!!!
deputydog1 said this on June 3, 2009 at 4:28 PM
deputydog1 said this on June 3, 2009 at 4:29 PM
Two years or more ago, Mark Shurtleff called FLDS the taliban. Oh he was going to put a stop to abuses within FLDS..After the raid, Shurtleff backed off, and backed down, putting child abuses on the back burner…
Now he and Willie the Weep are bestest friends!! Of course Shurtleff has decided to run for the senate! And he has a mess to clean up with the Kroeber ponzi scheme to 🙂
deputydog1 said this on June 3, 2009 at 4:40 PM
Crap, sorry,, I don’t know why those printed twice 😦
deputydog1 said this on June 3, 2009 at 5:16 PM
You got the plyg special DD, LOL.
LadySadie said this on June 3, 2009 at 6:37 PM
Pligg SPecial LOL DID YOU STUTTER!?!?
Yeah Seems that there is an enforcement “stand down” – the AG can only handle ONE CASE AT A TIME – ITS THE limited RESOURCES YANNO!
Stamp said this on June 4, 2009 at 1:56 PM
“Now he and Willie the Weep are bestest friends!!”
Shirtleff has a mess on his hands. Perhaps he now realizes that brute force is not effective in trying to force a large population to bend to your will. Usually, it results in achieving the opposite of what you intended.
duane said this on June 4, 2009 at 3:40 PM
“And 4 Timpson men were recently kicked out and told to leave UEP land …and the directive didn’t come from the UEP fiduciary, who is the only one with the authority to do that.”
Assuming this is true…so what? What are we supposed to do about it? Order them to stay and bar them from leaving?
duane said this on June 4, 2009 at 3:43 PM
duane: The imparting of new knowledge does not neccesarily imply that an action plan must be implemented. Consider it to be knowledge for the sake of knowledge. An interesting sub plot in the overall flds drama.
ale wife said this on June 4, 2009 at 3:52 PM
Duane – If four men have been kicked out, that means their wives and children likely have been or will be re-assigned to other men. Do you really think that is a healthy way to raise children?
nearthecreek said this on June 4, 2009 at 3:53 PM
Isn’t there a Timpson on the board of Trustees?
I guess FLDS is trying to put pressure of the Board by kicking out other family members still in Flds.. How sad 😦
deputydog1 said this on June 4, 2009 at 4:58 PM
“If four men have been kicked out, that means their wives and children likely have been or will be re-assigned to other men. Do you really think that is a healthy way to raise children?”
NeartheCreek, What if they were kicked out for beating their wives and/or chilren? Selling drugs? Caught in the sack with Flora and Kdee at a nearby motel?
Ok, lets say the reason is something less extreme, how about defying Willie, trying to incite a takeover, trying to hookup with Billy Bob Barlow’s 17 yr 11 month old daughter over the internet, or their wives complained that their husbands are too fat and requested their excommunication so they could get “reassigned” to leaner fitter priesthood holders.
If their wives choose to stay in the FLDS, I suppose they may likely marry another FLDS man, they can also choose to leave with their hubbies and I guess that means they are out too.
I think it is usually better if the child grows up with his biological mom and dad, but how often does that happen in the real world?
I had 2 stepfathers and 1 stepmother. Given the divorce rates, probably most of us weren’t raised by bio mom and dad.
FUNDAMENTALLY however, their familial relationships are not any of our business.
duane said this on June 4, 2009 at 5:44 PM
deputydawg, you can pull whatever you want out of your derrier, it doesn’t make it true
duane said this on June 4, 2009 at 5:45 PM
Duane – You know enough about the FLDS to be aware that in almost every family, people were born into the FLDS rather than joining of their own free will. They’ve been indoctrinated from birth that the outside world is evil, and that if they leave the church they will be damned to hell.
In addition, the fact that all of the various FLDS communities are in remote locations makes it difficult to impossible to leave. How would you expect a young woman with children to leave the community when she must travel several miles to get to the next town? If she and her children make it there then who should she call?
If a criminal act is the basis of someone being “kicked,” then someone within the community should notify law enforcement so that criminal charges will filed when appropriate as determined by the county district attorney.
nearthecreek said this on June 4, 2009 at 6:21 PM
Amen, nearthecreek, amen.
Oh, and Duane, never mind.
Boots said this on June 4, 2009 at 6:31 PM
“They’re expected to resolve those particular issues, not latch on to peripherals — which polygamy is perceived to be…”
The AAAP is here to make sure, as quickly as possible, that this issue becomes a non- peripheral. I do think there is enough concern, statewide, to bring the necessary pressure, with just a little more education on the issue.
As Flora and I move across the state, we are looking at this in about the most truly grassroots way we can. We really don’t have any other choice.
I’d love to have the monthly six figure marketing budget I used to but that was back in”casino world”, not the real world, now, lol.
The real world has balding tires, a cracked windshield, cheap drive through, miles and miles of Texas, lots of coffee, probably way too many cigarettes and not much sleep;)
And to think we’re both positively GIDDY with excitement about this prospect! ::snort::
Flora will be doing readings and signings; we will be speaking at civic clubs, handing out literature, and making guest media appearances, because we believe in Texas and Texans.
Boots said this on June 4, 2009 at 6:33 PM
I’d like to take the time to thank you for your contributions to this, and other discussions.
You help to make it crystal clear which side of this issue is filled with real hate. You cannot even help yourself from calling us names and alluding to our possible sexual immorality.
You may not be FLDS, but as you point out here yourself, you are their friend. You know what they say about friends, and our choice of them, Duane…
Go back and tell your friends that Texans will never buy the load of corn they are trying to sell us, never.
In calling us names, questioning our personal motives, and alluding to our potential sexual immorality, you are simply fulfilling the cycle almost all women endure when abused.
First you ask the rape victim what she was wearing
Then you question her about her own sexual history
Then you accuse her of being a liar, because everyone knows she was just a whore anyway, and was probably just asking for it.
We’ve moved away from condoning that sort of thing as a common people, Duane. You cannot warp you, or anyone else back to the 60’s.
Like I said, thanks for the help.
God Bless Texas
Oh…and get used to it.
Boots said this on June 4, 2009 at 7:05 PM
So duane: if someone does not speak to some flds women at WalMart in Cedar City, or if some one writes a letter to the editor saying they don’t like the flds living in their area; you just say, it is not illegal and it is none of your business, right??
Wrong; you would extrapolate that into hatred, lynching’s, aand all kinds of violence. What a hypocrite you are.
ale wife said this on June 4, 2009 at 7:14 PM
duane, WRONG! If 4 men were excommunicated for abusing women or children , they should of been turned into LE! Not kicked out to molest or harm other peoples children.
FLDS is NOT an island unto themselves duane.
deputydog1 said this on June 4, 2009 at 7:27 PM
duane the sooner you realize, FLDS aren’t another country within the United States the sooner you will realize that just like you they have to follow the law!
deputydog1 said this on June 4, 2009 at 7:28 PM
That’s why states have to keep pressure on the Feds.
This is a family crime syndicate, with its own town, police force, school system, federally funded airport….on and on.
Utah may just toss the whole dang thing into the lap of the feds, which will mean one thing: RICO
Boots said this on June 4, 2009 at 7:35 PM
“duane, WRONG! If 4 men were excommunicated for abusing women or children , they should of been turned into LE!”
Yes they should, unfortunately it is s dicey situation in light of the Kdog gang. Perhaps they have come to an agreement with LE to keep such investigations private.
Kdog, the crimes they are accused of don’t fall under Rico.
Polygamy is not a rico crime.
duane said this on June 4, 2009 at 7:45 PM
duane, it doesn’t matter, FLDS have done this for years, allowed abuses to happen for years, then suddenly when men can no longer GIVE enough money or have no land to give, they kick them out.
Warren’s doesn’t and has never had “revelations” about anything. He gets all his information from the tattle tales, of the cult. And if the tattle tales don’t like someone, they make up some vicious lie, and warren kicks them out.
But until they can no longer give lots of MONEY, they are allowed to stay regardless how abusive they are.
deputydog1 said this on June 4, 2009 at 7:59 PM
And the women won’t testify if LE arrest them, and you know why? Because as bad as the abuse was, they don’t want to be damned by the stupid prophet or the community.
deputydog1 said this on June 4, 2009 at 8:01 PM
so you had 2 stepfathers and 1 stepmother, and you forgot to mention one mother and 1 father as well? your family sounds as dysfunctional as the FLDS.
And just for the record, I grew up with one mother and one father. And I am making darn sure my kids do also.
First you try and insinuate that Kdee and Flora are ridiculous in their pursuit of ending polygamy & alerting the public then you validate them in the next breath by insinuating they are the reason why FLDS doesn’t call LE on crimes committed within their group. Which is it? You don’t know, because NONE of your comments make any sense whatsoever. You are not even able to intelligently debate the issue.
You ever heard that saying ” don’t call us , we’ll call you?”
If the shoe fits, wear it.
And really no one on this board wants to here you comment on anyone’s sex life in ANY hypothetical situation.
mississippigirl said this on June 4, 2009 at 8:26 PM
I also had only one mother and one father who celebrated their 65th wedding anniversary before death separated them. duane seems to think every non flds family is as disfunctional as his was. No wonder his “what if fantasys” seem so bizzare to the rest of us.
ale wife said this on June 4, 2009 at 8:38 PM
” if some one writes a letter to the editor saying they don’t like the flds living in their area; you just say, it is not illegal and it is none of your business, right??”
Yes you are correct. Would I call her a bigot? Yes
I wouldn’t accuse them of anything violent unless they advocated taking any direct actions against them.
Kdog, nothing I’ve said compares to the vile that you and your cohorts have spewed about a minority whose lifestyle you disagree with.
I’m not a misogynist either.
“Then you accuse her of being a liar, because everyone knows she was just a whore anyway, and was probably just asking for it.”
Who is doing the name callng?
Who did I accuse of being a whore? BTW, I couldn’t care less who or how many you sleep with nor do I take issue with “loose women”, not at all. As a matter of fact, I think it is hypocritical for a women to be labled a “slut” and a guy a “stud” for the same behavior, and have said as much to anyone who would listen for most of my life. Heh, heh…I’ve had some stripper friends and they are a lot of fun to hang out with…believe me, I don’t mean that in a sexual way…they don’t tend to be judgemental and self righteous types…of course there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Here I am defending a sect of religous fundamentalists…oh the irony!
You don’t know me and don’t even pretend that you do.
Msgirl, i’m proud of you for keeping your marriage together. I’ve been married for 15 years, she is my 1st and I’m her 2nd.
“wants to here you comment on anyone’s sex life in ANY hypothetical situation.”
Probably half the posts on this board have been about someone’s sex life, plenty of written material as well.
duane said this on June 4, 2009 at 8:40 PM
“First you try and insinuate that Kdee and Flora are ridiculous in their pursuit of ending polygamy & alerting the public then you validate them in the next breath by insinuating they are the reason why FLDS doesn’t call LE on crimes committed within their group”
The Kdog crew know what they are doing, I never said they were stupid…a little squeeze play they are trying to pull.
duane said this on June 4, 2009 at 8:55 PM
The FLDS was failing to report crimes, long before I ever came along, Duane.
Just look at Colorado City’s Marshall, Sam Barlow, who failed to report over 20 cases of child sexual molestation reported to his department, to the state or CPS.
The Mohave County Attorney at the time, Bill Eckstrom, showed up at his trial, to be a character witness FOR HIM.
These days, he’s just the Assistant Mohave County Attorney.
Boots said this on June 4, 2009 at 9:02 PM
“Just look at Colorado City’s Marshall, Sam Barlow, who failed to report over 20 cases of child sexual molestation reported to his department”
So abuse cases were reported to his dept., the FLDS folks were willing to call the local police. Data on other small isolated towns dominated by a single religion as typical in the deep south, would be useful. Flora’s dad went to prison for raping her, he was FLDS, seems that didn’t help him much
duane said this on June 4, 2009 at 9:32 PM
Old archive item in brooke’s blog, and you wonder why I defend the flds? Sam roundy points out the hypocrisy of the state.
Dan asks Samuel if he considers his relationship with two of his three plural wives to be a “polygamous relationship.” Samuel says no, he doesn’t, explaining those relationships are “‘celestial”‘ marriages.
“‘Polygamy to me is an ugly word,”‘ Samuel says.
Dan Altenes: Do you currently know of any relationships in your jurisdiction that would violate the Utah constitution or Utah law?
Samuel Roundy: I am aware of other people [who] live celestial marriage, yes.
Dan Altenes: Do you know of anyone who is cohabitating with more than one person of the opposite sex?
Samuel Roundy: What is cohabitation?
[Dan Altenes explains the legal definition of cohabitation.] He then asks Roundy again if he knows any one who is cohabitating.
Samuel Roundy: I don’t know of anybody that is cohabitating. I just say ‘no’ as far as that. I know of other people who are close to me who live the celestial law.
Dan Altenes: If you had knowledge of a relationship that constituted a crime in Utah, what would be your actions . . . what would happen if female A, male B, moved in like that, would there be action that you take?
Samuel Roundy: . . . If they are consenting adults, there’s nothing we can do about it, as far as police officer, right. If they were not consenting adults, then yeah, you would have to look at it.
Dan Altenes: By statute, fornication is illegal.
Samuel Roundy: If we are going to go there, we ought [to] pull every police officer in the state of Utah and talk about fornication and adultery. It [is] pretty rampant out there, we know it is.
duane said this on June 4, 2009 at 9:45 PM
That’s the same old answer you always give, Duane…
“Hurry, look over there, not at us”!
The Colorado City Police Department was reporting to the prophet, not the county, or the state.
That’s not how things are supposed to be done in America, Duane.
I don’t walk into the local police department to report a crime against my child, and expect the case file to be turned over to my respective minister or rabbi. My taxes are paying that officer, not my tithe.
This is America, and although we love our respective religions, our nation was never supposed to be an operational theocracy. We are a Republic of free men and women.
Those who implement a full blown theocracy, in place of, or above our constitutionally approved representative form of government [especially when you have legally incorporated your community into a town], are at the very least conspiring to deny a specific group of people [women] their natural born rights as citizens of these United States of America. At worst they might be guilty of treason, for subverting the U.S. Constitution, as far as I’m concerned.
Keep thinking about those friendships you are making, Duane.
Do not squander time
for that is the stuff life is made of
Boots said this on June 4, 2009 at 10:23 PM
I have another question for you, Duane.
How many of the women escorted BY the Colorado City Police Department’s “officers” to in-patient mental health centers in Phoenix for failing to “keep sweet” were probably mothers of little girls who were being raped and getting no help?
I know you’d love to know the answer.
So would I, but Arizona uses HIPPA laws to keep us from finding too much out about all those forced commitments.
But we do have one from an in-patient mental health facility, which actually has ON the discharge papers, Ok to release but “MUST SEE PROPHET” [In this case Warren Jeffs].
Now why a mental health facility in Phoenix would be putting orders like THAT on a medical discharge, I have no idea.
Boots said this on June 4, 2009 at 11:05 PM
“So would I, but Arizona uses HIPPA laws to keep us from finding too much out about all those forced commitments.”
Thank goodness for HIPPA. Would you want someone publishing your medical records on a blog?
“for failing to “keep sweet” were probably mothers of little girls who were being raped and getting no help?”
Then again, probably, most likely, not.
“Now why a mental health facility in Phoenix would be putting orders like THAT on a medical discharge, I have no idea.
No, and you don’t either. Considering the numbers of FLDS, no doubt they have their share of crazies whom a funny farm would be the best place for them. Boots, just monitor the phone number that is published on those billboards, if you get a call for help, go in and do your rescue, if you find out the “escapee” was locked up against her will because her child was being raped, make sure she presses charges and the perp is arrested, also be sure to let us know. Bottom line, reports of crime should be complaint driven. How about every household, hospital records of every individual in the US be be subject to random suprise searches? I don’t agree with that and it is a very un-american idea.
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security
duane said this on June 4, 2009 at 11:45 PM
Hey, I’ll always admit when I’m just making a guess, Duane.
I’m a mom, so I wonder about stuff like that…”Gee, how would it make me feel to report the sexual abuse of my child and then be completely shut down, at every turn I took to try and get justice?”
Just thoughts, Duane. Women have those random empathetic thoughts sometimes.
Can you please find the part in the U.S. Constitution that guarantees you the essential liberty to abuse other U.S. citizens, or any human being for that matter?
Boots said this on June 4, 2009 at 11:56 PM
“are at the very least conspiring to deny a specific group of people [women] their natural born rights as citizens of these United States of America”
The women in CC don’t seem to see it that way. Here something a “brainwashed” FLDS woman posted, I was rather moved by it
“Choice… Its a funny thing. Its our choice as long as the world in general agrees with it.”
IMHO, Feminism is the right for a woman to be an accountant, doctor, teacher, nurse, attorney or a polygamist wife who decides to have 10 kids…or both an accountant, teacher, nurst, attorney AND polygamist wife with 10 kids.
duane said this on June 4, 2009 at 11:56 PM
Cute, but still criminal. She can believe anything she likes all day long, Duane, but the law is clear.
Ms. Polygamist Mom, doctor, lawyer or Indian Chief is still a criminal. She is engaging in illegal activity, and admittedly is raising at least 10 more than herself to keep perpetrating the crime in the future.
Boots said this on June 5, 2009 at 12:04 AM
Ok Boots here we get to the fundamentals. Polygamy is oohabitating with multiple women or men that includes a sexual relationship. I cannot be against polygamy because a core value of mine is that no one should have the right to dictate who I choose to have sex with or choice of partners whether 1 or 3.
Whether I refer to them as spirtual “ho’s”, bed buddies, girlfriends or “celestial wives”, my motivation be religous or secular, is irrelevant.
duane said this on June 5, 2009 at 12:23 AM
The problem, duane, is the children, purposefully produced, brought into the world through no fault of their own into organized crime families.
You’re just boring me again.
Boots said this on June 5, 2009 at 12:28 AM
Would you consider it organized criminal activity if every single woman and child on the YFZ were actively collecting welfare benefits from Azizona or Utah, while they lived in Texas?
Is there anything they could ever do that you WOULD consider “criminal”?
Boots said this on June 5, 2009 at 12:36 AM
duane is a strict Constitutionalist, only problem is it’s not the American Constitution. He wants the one that suits his fancy and is subject to his sole interpretation and explanation. Heah, duh duane did you repeal Women’s Suffrage and Slavery under your Constitution at the HOOT Convention. How many were there, did you meet a Denny’s, again?
cajIM said this on June 5, 2009 at 1:01 AM
duane is full of CA_CA! I knew the pharse “Ho’s” was coming in his diatribe,, He really likes that word. He probably would BE one if he was female.
deputydog1 said this on June 5, 2009 at 1:23 AM
Duane seems to like posing many questions, which we take the time to answer, but he doesn’t seem to like answering our questions.
We find this to be a universal problem with the pro-polygamist community in general. They cannot take on the facts in any meaningful way.
I put myself out there, when I was asked to write for an online publication. He wanted stories. I said I would, as long as it was an opinion column. I wasn’t going to try to pose as an objective reporter, unlike some advocates I could name.
I came up with the idea for a series of challenge columns, where the editor would ask a question, specific to polygamy or the FLDS, and I would reply, as well as one person willing to publicly take the other side.
Fairness appeals greatly to me, personally.
The owner of the pub contacted Willie Jessop [at his personal cell phone number] on several different occasions, never to have his calls returned.
Nobody in the FLDS was interested in publicly defending their lifestyle or their views on polygamy.
It was a shame really, because the owner had also offered to sponsor a public debate, at the university in San Angelo. I was really looking forward to something like that;)
Nobody home, lights out. Maybe Duane wants to contact the owner and offer to do the job for them?
Boots said this on June 5, 2009 at 1:26 AM
“Is there anything they could ever do that you WOULD consider “criminal”?”
No doubt they have their share of bad eggs. JEEZ! I am defending them COLLECTIVELY, not individually! If an FLDS member shot and killed a loved one of mine, I would want the book thrown at that Individual, whether he is FLDS or not is beside the point.
By and large, the FLDS are good people doing their best to survive in a hostile world where so many are out to get them.
STOP TREATING ALL OF THEM LIKE CRIMINALS!!!
“Would you consider it organized criminal activity if every single woman and child on the YFZ were actively collecting welfare benefits from Azizona or Utah, while they lived in Texas?”
If they committed welfare FRAUD and conspired together…then yes.
If they are exploiting a loophole…No.
Lawrence vs. Texas..right of privacy…that sort of thing.
Sorry I don’t consider multiple baby mamas as slavery. Polygamist women can and do vote…the ballot is secret.
duane said this on June 5, 2009 at 1:29 AM
By and large, the FLDS are good people doing their best to survive in a hostile world where so many are out to get them************* duane, How do you know that? Have you even bothered to research how many of thier “GOOD” people have been put in prison for sexual assualt and abuse? NO!!!! you haven’t.
Have you bothered to find out that State Money spent for School buildings and teacher were stolen by leadership and the prophet for personal gain? NO!!!! you haven’t.
Have you even bothered to find out how much money laundering was going on in FLDS??? HELL NO!!!
“But they are all Good people”?
deputydog1 said this on June 5, 2009 at 1:59 AM
I grew up with one mother and one father. The same ones the whole time. My husband, he had just the two and they were both there. He had 5 kids and he divorced his wife, and you know what? His kids lived with both their mother and their father, then their mother, then their father and me. Not that complicated. And, most people, when they get a divorce, don’t tell the kids to forget that their father existed and don’t mention his name. Mainly because the courts can enforce visitation and such. And because it isn’t good for the kid.
Betty said this on June 5, 2009 at 1:59 AM
duane wrote “I cannot be against polygamy because a core value of mine is that no one should have the right to dictate who I choose to have sex with or choice of partners whether 1 or 3.”
I bet your wife dictates who you can choose to have sex with. Does she know you are out on the internet without a chaperone?
Betty said this on June 5, 2009 at 2:06 AM
Boots ,, listen Darlin,, you could take your cowboy boots off and flog duane with them, and it wouldn’t make any difference!
Your breath should be focused on those who want children protected from abuses,, instead of fighting with a Twit who is frustrated , doesn’t do his homework and can’t see past the end of his nose. 🙂
deputydog1 said this on June 5, 2009 at 2:06 AM
deputydog1 said this on June 5, 2009 at 2:07 AM
Boots said this on June 5, 2009 at 2:18 AM
So Duane is touting (and quoting) the honorable Samuel Roundy – the EX Marshal of Colorado City.
Know why Sam Roundy is the EX Marshal? Because he had his badge removed by POST. Poor, dumb Sam Roundy never reported numerous cases of child abuse to the proper OUTSIDE law enforcement agencies as required by POST regulations.
Know why poor dumb Sam Roundy never reported these numerous cases of child abuse?
It’s because poor dumb Sam Roundy said he didn’t know he was supposed to report them.
Hey Duane, you have quite a hero in poor dumb Samuel Round – EX Marshal of Colorado City.
You two are both dumb turds who should go lie out in the yard.
Anonymous said this on June 5, 2009 at 4:37 AM
“So abuse cases were reported to his dept., the FLDS folks were willing to call the local police. Data on other small isolated towns dominated by a single religion as typical in the deep south, would be useful. Flora’s dad went to prison for raping her, he was FLDS, seems that didn’t help him much
duane said this on June 4, 2009 at 9:32 PM ”
I seriously doubt that there are any other “small isolated towns dominated by a single religion as typical in the deep south” other than in the Short Creek (Hildale area) of southern of Utah to provide you any comparative data. Sorry but this is a unique community without any equal in America to provide comparative data.
And I am confused about this remark you made:
“Flora’s dad went to prison for raping her, he was FLDS, seems that didn’t help him much”
Why would it matter if it helped Flora’s rapist father if he went to prison????????
Rapists go to prison as PUNISHMENT FOR RAPING!
Who cares if it helped him or not? That is NOT the issue. Criminals go to prison. Maybe they will be rehabilitated, maybe not. But PUNISHMENT is the reasons prisons exist.
You do the crime, you do the time.
THAT is the issue!
Anonymous said this on June 5, 2009 at 5:00 AM
My point about Flora’s dad is that the local police must have done their job as he was put away. I get the impression that rapes, beatings, and other abuse are committed with impunity without fear of arrest.
duane said this on June 5, 2009 at 1:35 PM
I have lived in the “deep south” all my life and I will state emphatically I have never seen a church, prophet/pastor dominate a group or town of people as Short Creek exhibits.
The absolute most you get is a small country church located here and there. I’m not saying that the one church or couple of churches are not all the same religion such as Baptist or Methodist but it is in NO WAY a comparison of what you find at Short Creek.
And let’s be honest. The ONLY reason that Flora’s dad was sent to jail is because this group KNEW Flora would never shut up about her abuse and their practices.
They did not do it out of a sense of obligation or shame. The ONLY therapy Flora got was being worked to death practically for the next 2 years while being confined in Fred Jessop’s house.
But wouldn’t you know the wheel of karma came around for Fred too, didn’t it? Warren took him away from his family and friends and they never saw him again. Fitting, isn’t it? Sure hope old Fred was thinking bout that when he died.
and I don’t believe I have EVER heard of that sort of therapy for a child that has been repeatedly raped by her father.
mississippigirl said this on June 5, 2009 at 3:28 PM
And your right about one thing duane,
You stated ” I get the impression that rapes, beatings, and other abuse are committed with impunity without fear of arrest.
They have been committing these crimes for years in this group, why do you think we are all so upset?
Your taking one of their women’s words at face value? she is happy? she chose this life? well she sure better act like it , if not they have a bed at the mental facility waiting for her. And THEN if she keeps sweet long enough and convincingly enough, well they might let her go back home. Is that what you call freedom?
Prisoner’s usually say whatever their jailers want them to say, don’t they?
mississippigirl said this on June 5, 2009 at 3:35 PM
“By and large, the FLDS are good people doing their best to survive in a hostile world where so many are out to get them”
OH PUH – LEASE..!!!!!!!!!
Back in 1942 the German “people” were good people doing their best to survive in a hostile world where so many are out to get them..
( But somehow also led astray by a narcisisstic leader huh? History repeats itself with a little echo )
Stamp said this on June 5, 2009 at 3:58 PM
Your taking one of their women’s words at face value? she is happy? she chose this life?
So what would you suggest the alternative be? Take a woman, separate her from her friends and family, put her in mainstream society then tell her now you aren’t you glad you are happy?
Alinusara10 said this on June 5, 2009 at 4:02 PM
Back in 1942 the German “people” were good people doing their best to survive in a hostile world where so many are out to get them..
I thought it was the Jews and Gypsies.
Alinusara10 said this on June 5, 2009 at 4:03 PM
FLDS TEXAS said this on June 5, 2009 at 4:14 PM
The alternative is to enforce the law, regardless of who it makes happy or unhappy. A novel concept up there in Arizona and Utah, for sure.
Boots said this on June 5, 2009 at 4:15 PM
Ahh you are referring to people who was kidnapped from friends and family. These cases refer to people who lived all their lives surrounded by friends and family: Two diametrically opposites.
The alternative is to enforce the law, regardless of who it makes happy or unhappy.
Nothing wrong with enforcing the law as long as you are not hypocritical about it and ignore fornication and adultery laws.
Alinusara10 said this on June 5, 2009 at 4:23 PM
Wish I could edit. I wanted to put in what Flds Texas was implying: Stockholm Syndrome.
Alinusara10 said this on June 5, 2009 at 4:25 PM
Exactly right Boots, lets start by insisting that all US citizens are expected to obey the laws of the land and be subject to prosecution if they do not. Polygamy is against the law of the land.
chemist said this on June 5, 2009 at 4:26 PM
Civil disobedience is what created the SCOTUS ruling Lawrence v. Texas.
Alinusara10 said this on June 5, 2009 at 4:29 PM
Last time I checked, homosexual sex never produced any children who would later be effected by criminal behavior.
Boots said this on June 5, 2009 at 4:32 PM
duane wrote “I cannot be against polygamy because a core value of mine is that no one should have the right to dictate who I choose to have sex with or choice of partners whether 1 or 3.”
I bet your wife dictates who you can choose to have sex with. Does she know you are out on the internet without a chaperone?”
LOL! Yeah, dood still hasnt figured it out! But someday he’ll grow up!
Stamp said this on June 5, 2009 at 4:35 PM
Nobody here cares if the FLDS or anyone else wants to run a sex cult for adults only.
The problem is, they themselves will admit to you that they NEED the children to continue practicing their religion.
“But Larry, we just want our children back”.
Problem is, they only want certain children back. They weren’t interested in having back any of the over 400 boys they had driven from their community.
So I ask you, is it really about wanting their children back, or only certain children back?
Boots said this on June 5, 2009 at 4:43 PM
So you are saying if polygamy, actually the word you are seeking is bigamy, is legal, then we wouldn’t have to worry about children being effected by criminal behavior?
Alinusara10 said this on June 5, 2009 at 4:43 PM
No, what I am saying is that there is a very good reason this behavior is classified as criminal in America. It harms women and children.
It’s going to stay criminal, and down here in Texas, you can expect to be prosecuted for the crime. Utah and Arizona are the places to be if you want to break laws with impunity, not Texas.
Boots said this on June 5, 2009 at 4:47 PM
They weren’t interested in having back any of the over 400 boys they had driven from their community.
Pretty strange reasoning to take newborn babies because when they reach 17 or 18 they may leave their homes.
We remove men and women all the time from our society because they cannot abide by the “rules” that we live by. If that wasn’t true we would not have a need for prisons.
Alinusara10 said this on June 5, 2009 at 4:49 PM
No, what I am saying is that there is a very good reason this behavior is classified as criminal in America. It harms women and children.
If an adult woman says she is not being harmed who are you to call her a liar and tell her yes you are being harmed you just don’t know it. As for children, as long as they are well cared for and loved growing up, and not abused, they are not being harmed.
Alinusara10 said this on June 5, 2009 at 4:52 PM
“Pretty strange reasoning to take newborn babies because when they reach 17 or 18 they may leave their homes.”
Go back to the drawing board, sugar, and get educated on how old those boys were when their “loving parents” abandoned them on the sides of the roads in Salt Lake city, Las Vegas and Saint George.
They start at the ages of 12 and 13, not 17 or 18.
More criminal behavior that has never been prosecuted. Go figure.
Boots said this on June 5, 2009 at 4:53 PM
Duane some time ago posted something about slaves in the U.S. and how they were well treated and yet escaped anyway. I have been going through my books and documents on this. First, the total number of slaves escaping were low compared to the total population and the vast majority were men. There were many run aways – but they did not “escape” they harbored or hid – primarily because of the ties to family and the lack of knowledge of the other world (Canada). Sounds familiar to me when reading accounts of women and young men. the book I quoted is a Lincoln award book
First Place: John Hope Franklin and Loren Schweninger, Runaway Slaves: Rebels in the Plantation (Oxford University Press)
Then I got to thinking about the psychology of enslavement – in the south the most terrified slave owners were those in which the work was hard enough and disease ridden enough that the population died and needed to be replaced with fresh (off the boat) slaves – South Carolina rice plantations – in those places the male slaves had often grown up not slaves and the adjustment to a slave mentality was hard.
So then I started looking into indoctrinating slaves and here are some excerpts from an article which I think is wholely appropriate to the FLDS community.
The point being that talk about this as a “choice” is ludicrous.
The Social Psychology of Modern Slavery
Scientific American ^ | April, 2002 | Kevin Bales
Since we no longer belonged to the landlord, we didn’t get food every day as before. Finally, I went to the landlord and asked him to take me back. I didn’t have to borrow any money, but he agreed to let me be his halvaha again. Now I don’t worry so much; I know what to do.”
Lacking any preparation for freedom, Baldev reenrolled in slavery. Without financial or emotional support, his accidental emancipation didn’t last.
The New Slavery
Researchers do know that slavery is both evolving and increasing in raw numbers.
Human suffering comes in various guises, yet slavery has a distinctive horror that is evident to those of us who have seen it in the flesh. Even when it does not involve beating or other physical torture, it brings about a psychological degradation that often renders victims unable to function in the outside world. “I’ve worked in prisons and with cases of domestic violence,” says Sydney Lytton, an American psychiatrist who has counseled freed slaves. “This is worse.”
Free Your Mind Instead
A second commonality among different forms of slavery is the psychological manipulation they all involve. The widely held conception of a slave is someone in chains who would escape if given half a chance or who simply does not know better. But Meera’s and Baldev’s stories, among numerous others, suggest that this view is naive. In my experience, slaves often know that their enslavement is illegal. Force, violence and psychological coercion have convinced them to accept it. When slaves begin to accept their role and identify with their master, constant physical bondage becomes unnecessary. They come to perceive their situation not as a deliberate action taken to harm them in particular but as part of the normal, if regrettable, scheme of things.
Cultural norms have prepared these young women for control and compliance. A girl will be told how her parents will suffer if she does not cooperate and work hard, how the debt is on her shoulders and must be repaid. Thai sex roles are clearly defined, and women are expected to be retiring, nonassertive and obedient–as the women are repeatedly reminded. The pimps also cite religion. The young women are encouraged to believe that they must have committed terrible sins in a past life to deserve their enslavement and abuse. They are urged to accept this karmic debt, to come to terms with it and to reconcile themselves to their fate.
To live in slavery, the young women often redefine their bondage as a duty or a job or a form of penance. To accept their role and the pimp’s, they must try to diminish their view of themselves as victims who have been wronged. They must begin to see their enslavement from the point of view of the slaveholder.
Forty Acres and a Mule
All this points to the need for a highly developed system of rehabilitation for freed slaves and slaveholders alike. Physical freedom is not enough. Human-rights worker Vivek Pandit of the Vidhayak Sansad organization in India has been liberating bonded laborers for more than 20 years. He is adamant that real liberation takes place in the mind, that physical freedom isn’t enough–as was the case with Baldev. Conversely, mental freedom can bring about physical freedom–as it did for Meera.
Pandit’s organization has devised a program of education that prepares former bonded laborers for a life of freedom. They are taught basic science to promote their curiosity and attention to detail; role-playing to stimulate problem solving; and games to develop strategic thinking and teamwork. This training comes after a challenging public dialogue in which the laborer recounts and renounces his or her bondage. The renunciation is recorded and read out in the village. “When the ex-slave has fixed his thumbprint to this public document,” Pandit says, “they can’t go back.”
Several models of liberation and rehabilitation are currently being field-tested. [Editors’ note: Visit http://www.sciam.com/explorations/2002/031102gabon for a case study of a program in Gabon.] The experience of these programs suggests that a combination of economic support, counseling and education can lead to stable, sustainable freedom. This kind of work is still in its early stages, though. No systematic evaluations of these programs have been carried out. No social scientist has explored a master-slave relationship in depth.
end of quotation of portions of the article
hellohellogoodbye said this on June 5, 2009 at 4:56 PM
I’ll say it again, “I shudder to think what might have happened to the anti-slavery movement in this country if we had mass media back then. Because I can guarantee you that if we had, we would have had slave owners trotting out slaves on talk shows, to talk about how happy they were with their lives down on the plantation, and how they weren’t hurting anyone and just wanted to be left alone to do their thang according to the constitution.”
Boots said this on June 5, 2009 at 5:06 PM
They start at the ages of 12 and 13, not 17 or 18.
If the child is left on the side of the road at the ages 12 and 13 by all means prosecute the parent(s) for neglect! You won’t have me saying any different.
Alinusara10 said this on June 5, 2009 at 5:10 PM
Fact is many boys were left out in the desert or beside a road. Fact is it got so bad,, Shurtleff didn’t know exactly what to do about it… So they passed an emancipation bill for boys, so they could get social security cards, apply for jobs, driver’s license’s. AG in Utah and Arizona knew who these boys parents were, NOT one of those parents were prosecuted!
Yes, there is a real problem in those two states. And Texas is ensuring it doesn’t happen there.
deputydog1 said this on June 5, 2009 at 5:35 PM
“No, what I am saying is that there is a very good reason this behavior is classified as criminal in America. It harms women and children.”
As I have stated before, not according to the women themselves who are in polygamists relationships. Surf the net, there are plenty of blogs by moromon fundie women seeking sister wives or desiring a polygamist relationship for various reasons…bonding with a sister wife, help with the children, comfort of a large family. Of course it is not for everybody but they have a right to make that choice and who has the moral authority to tell them otherwise? Surely not you Boots, Flora, Stamp, CaJim.
Does adultery harm women and children? Yes, of course it does, know many families heartbroken because of it. Why do we not pursue adulters and throw them in prison?
What about Polyamorists, I have a few acquaintences who practice this? The only difference with polys is that their motivation is secular, yet some even have a little ceremony. Should we throw them in jail as well. I can cohab with 2 women and have children with them, as long as I don’t refer to them as “wives”, I’m obeying the law.
““loving parents” abandoned them on the sides of the roads in Salt Lake city, Las Vegas and Saint George.”
Boots, I say this is a product of your brainwashed mind. Give us the name, name of parents, of the “12 year old” boy who was abandoned by their parents on the side of the road, also the circumstances surrounding it. Otherwise I will assume you are just trying to blow smoke up our rear ends.
duane said this on June 5, 2009 at 5:37 PM
“Fact is many boys were left out in the desert or beside a road.”
Fact is deputydawg, GIVE US THE NAME OF A SINGLE 12 YEAR OLD BOY AND ALSO THE NAMES OF THE PARENTS WHO DID THIS!!!
Who is taking care of him now? His parents drove him out in the desert and just dropped him off? When? Where?
duane said this on June 5, 2009 at 5:40 PM
You almost always have insightful posts Duane. I’m very skeptical when people want to limit women’s rights under the guise of protecting them. That’s how the Taliban got started and so many problems like morality police in Saudi Arabia.
Alinusara10 said this on June 5, 2009 at 5:45 PM
“Back in 1942 the German “people” were good people doing their best to survive in a hostile world where so many are out to get them..”
Boots and Flora are traveling throughout Texas, book signings, speeches, handing out brochures and flyers to people in order to “educate” them on how evil and wicked polygamists are. They are even going to be in my city on June 22 to spread their message that polygamists are bad, bad people.
The Nazis did this to a certain minority group, “educating” the german people on how their religion was evil, they are fraudsters and parasites who mooch off society by scamming people out of their money, barbaric practices, threat to Christian children. etc…The group in question were known as “Jews”.
I don’t know about others, but this anti mormon polygamist campaign sounds eerily familiar.
duane said this on June 5, 2009 at 5:47 PM
Dear K.Dee Ignatin,
It seems that we fight for the same cause on opposite sides of the globe.
Although polygamy was about to end in the modern Iraq, the political mess of the new millennium has introduced us into a new age of politicized misogyny. The new mutations of Islamism into an uncontrolled beast has made most feminists and egalitarian of the Middle-East lay low.
A few of us are still determined to stand against them and tell the whole world that we, the women in Iraq, reject polygamy, paedophilia (of female children), and submission.
I personally have gained a reputation at that, but it always comes with a high cost.
Our current “democratic” constitution has given way to polygamy while it was penalized before the occupation.
You have an ally and a supporter in Iraq.
Keep on leading the struggle for women’s liberation and do not wait for appologists to make you stronger. You do not need them.
Organization of Women’s Freedom in Iraq, president OWFI
She’s on Facebook if you’d like to look her up, darlin’.
I’m pretty proud of my new feminist friends, hope you can be proud of yours, too.
Boots said this on June 5, 2009 at 5:50 PM
Thanks alinursa, brave of you to come on this board. Most here are hardcore and utterly brainwashed anti-plyg rabble rousers.
Sad to think what they may be teaching their children.
“Junior, there is this large group of people whom the women look like Care Bears, but don’t let their appearances decieve you, they are evil, wicked, and very bad people. They are spreading across all over the country”,
“Mommy, tuck me in tonight and make sure those bad Care Bear people don’t get me”
“Don’t worry honey, I’ll keep you safe from them, here, keep this picture of Flora on your wall, lets pray to her that she will protect us and keep us safe from the Care Bears lurking about”
duane said this on June 5, 2009 at 5:55 PM
I’m a little curious, haven’t been to Utah in a good while. Don’t recall seeing those billboards Duane writes of, there weren’t a lot of billboards at all. Anyone?
GrannyToad said this on June 5, 2009 at 6:04 PM
But I see your true colors
I see your true colors
And that’s why I love you
So don’t be afraid to let them show
Your true colors
True colors are beautiful,
Like a rainbow
I will have to burn that one for the road then we will have to dedicate it to you, Duane as we sing merrily along.
It is almost like another childhood for us both.
Why dose the happiness we find in our constitutional liberty bother you so much, Duane?
Boots said this on June 5, 2009 at 6:08 PM
I’m having trouble following something, I don’t know who or what a kdog is. Help?
GrannyToad said this on June 5, 2009 at 6:10 PM
I have a picture of the one laughable bill board Utah installed.
My webmaster has had a family emergency and I have no way to update my site but if you, or anyone else wants the picture I’ll send it to you.
I only took the picture because I was laughing so hard when I saw it.
Boots said this on June 5, 2009 at 6:13 PM
Duane has decided to dehumanize me a bit by translating my name, k.Dee, into kdog.
Boots said this on June 5, 2009 at 6:16 PM
granny, it is a playful nickname I give to Boots.
Boots is a better moniker though, she wants to crush under her boots, anyone who doesn’t abide by her personal moral code.
She and Flora have done a good job sucking other in.
Yes Boots, I guess it is a lot of fun for you, going from town to town, staying in motels-brainstorming sessions to find more cruel and deragatory pejoratives to describe polygamists, making hate speeches and generally bad mouthing an entire minority group whom you know so little about. Having all these minions paying tribute to you and her highness-Flora…Life must be grand for you, right now.
duane said this on June 5, 2009 at 6:22 PM
But if you only have love for your own race
Then you only leave space to discriminate
And to discriminate only generates hate
And when you hate then you’re bound to get irate, yeah
Madness is what you demonstrate
And that’s exactly how anger works and operates
Man, you gotta have love just to set it straight
Take control of your mind and meditate
Let your soul gravitate to the love, y’all, y’all
People killin’, people dyin’
Children hurt and you hear them cryin’
Can you practice what you preach
And would you turn the other cheek
Father, Father, Father help us
Send some guidance from above
‘Cause people got me, got me questionin’
Where is the love (Love)
Where is the love (The love)
Where is the love (The love)
Where is the love
The love, the love
duane said this on June 5, 2009 at 6:31 PM
Credit to the Black eye peas goes to the above post.
duane said this on June 5, 2009 at 6:32 PM
duane has a malicious sense of humor, calling people derogatory names like kdog and ole hag is funny for him. Also sending people to virus sites and white supremacy sites is joyful for skinwalker.
The white supremacy sites are quite close to warren’s anti black rants. Maybe deci should send the flds there, they would be with people of similar views.
ale wife said this on June 5, 2009 at 6:37 PM
duane you ought to have given those lyics more thought. Really.
We’ve all read (or know of) the book 1984. We have observed your bigotry and hatred too long. Calling bad “good” or black “white” or hate “love” does not work. Shame on you.
GrannyToad said this on June 5, 2009 at 6:39 PM
duane whatever in your life caused you to hate people is none of our doing and by rights ought not to be taken out on people whose hearts are inclined to help the weaker among us, that is is this case most often children and women.
It’s indecent, it’s not right nor just.
GrannyToad said this on June 5, 2009 at 6:56 PM
“that is is this case most often children and women.”
Ahhh the women and children, you say they are being hurt in short creek and yfz, evidence being your intepretation of “dications” and a few books by professional victime but I saw with my own eyes, the pain, suffering, heartbreak, and turmoil of hundreds of women and children at the hands of those who peversely referred to themselves as “saviours” and “rescuers”.
duane said this on June 5, 2009 at 7:15 PM
why no comments on the similarity of slavery enforced by conditioning and psychology to the FLDS brainwashing that I posted? duane slid right around it and sent the conversation into flds as haters. I am not a hater, but I see very strong similarities in that article to the accounts of flds conditioning.
My point is yes I believe in freedom – but you have to give people the freedom first for them to exercise it. To say all those women ‘s rights will be trampled by well meaning but evil outsiders assumes that they had a significant choice in the beginning. go back and read the link to the scientific american article i put up about 15 comments ago.
hellohellogoodbye said this on June 5, 2009 at 7:16 PM
meant….duane slid right around it and sent the conversation into those opposed to the flds as haters
hellohellogoodbye said this on June 5, 2009 at 7:17 PM
p.s. flds said they won’t sue so wisan is accepting the payment.
Here are some dictations to chew on. Yeah I’m sure you already heard about them but in case you forgot:
“Women were constantly lied to about where their children [were] and when they could see their lawyers and about when they would be reunited with their children.”
“Constant reminders that the adult women were only guests and that they were not in charge of the children and what CPS did to them. [The children] belonged to CPS now and they could talk, interrogate, separate and treat them any way [CPS] wanted. This included physical exams and x-rays without [parental] supervision.”
“I sat with Audrey while three of her children were removed for six hours of questioning.”
“The children arrived healthy and happy and left sick and crying.”
“The door to the room was almost constantly open. Even when the women closed the door to reduce noise during naptime or to dress themselves or the children, it was almost immediately opened again [by a CPS worker].”
“The women were lied to and denied access to their attorneys.”
“At least 5 mothers reported that at night CPS [workers] circled their beds, held flashlight in their faces & then would sit inches away from them as they tried to sleep. Mothers reported that they were scared CPS would take their children during the night.”
“The CPS workers were openly rude to the mothers and the children, yelled at them for trying to wave to friends and family members in surrounding shelters, threatened them with arrest if they did not stop waving to others, continually reminded them that the women were guests only and could be made to leave if they did not cooperate, threatened the mothers with never seeing their children again if they did not cooperate, and ignored requests for anything.”
“The children were amazingly clean, happy, healthy, energetic, inquisitive, well behaved, and self-confident; while the mothers were consistently calm, patient, and loving with their children.”
“Living conditions in the coliseum were not conducive to good health for anyone, and the presence of hostile CPS workers who spied on them constantly, kept them awake at night by shining lights in their faces and talking and laughing created enormous stress for the mothers and children. None of them slept well or enough.”
“Try to imagine all these children from age 1 to 12 years, left in that coliseum [separated from their mothers] with only CPS and [police officers] to care for them. The only others were mothers whom CPS decided were under 18 and kept in their custody along with their children. The floor was literally slick with tears in places. A baby was left in a stroller without food and water for 24 hours and ended up in the hospital. A 4 year old boy was so terrified that he snuck away and hid and was only found after the coliseum had been emptied the next day.”
“I witnessed a young mother named Rosinith be required by CPS to board the bus back to the ranch, though her young child was in the hospital with 104 degree fever and even though the child’s physician had personally requested the mother’s presence at the hospital. This event haunts me still, and I cannot imagine such a heartless act.”
“By the second day, I was ready to run in front of the CNN cameras to shout that there was a travesty happening inside those walls…. Of course I was cautioned not to interfere in a ‘crime scene investigation.’”
“I have always been proud to be an American and a Texan but this incident is not what America or Texas stands for and something must be done to undo the horrible injustice that has been done.”
Where is the Love?
duane said this on June 5, 2009 at 7:25 PM
and here are the answers, Duane.
Polygamy is a crime.
Each of these women was born, and indeed purposfully bread, to be submissive and obedient to their crime bosses, known as the FLDS priesthood.
They were probably being treated like criminals, because they are criminals.
They have consistantly engaged in repeated criminal behavior, Duane.
Giving your little girl to an old man for the purpose of sex is criminal, Duane, everywhere in America.
Every time she insists on supporting the crime family she is loyal to, rather than the law, she continues to choose to be a criminal.
I’m all for giving amnesty to the one’s who really leave the organization.
Boots said this on June 5, 2009 at 7:35 PM
Boots, you will never convince the one we call child rapist as a playful nickname.
ale wife said this on June 5, 2009 at 7:39 PM
I know that, sugar.
But other people read here, and they can always use the ammo.
I’ve got enough to share.
Boots said this on June 5, 2009 at 7:43 PM
Your observations did not go unnoticed. I suspect the silence you heard was mostly everyone taking a deep sigh and goin’:::yep:::.
From the very first Republican Party Platform, of 1856:
“It is the duty of Congress to prohibit in the territories those twin relics of barbarism, polygamy, and slavery.”*
Boots said this on June 5, 2009 at 7:47 PM
And a great amen to the GOP platform of 1856. Thanks for that hellohellogoodbye.
ale wife said this on June 5, 2009 at 7:52 PM
Last time I checked, Duane, calling someone known to have coordinated multiple crimes, performed by multiple people, a “crime boss”, wasn’t a hate crime, nor hate speech.
Boots said this on June 5, 2009 at 8:02 PM
These FLDS women have repeatedly posted on blogs that they are free to do what they want, men frequently out of town working, they could “escape”, return, “escape” again, and no one would notice. They have computers and cars.
Some with college degrees, nurses, teachers, accountants, emts….
All this talk of plyg women beng “slaves” is just nonsense.
I dismiss it out of hand.
duane said this on June 5, 2009 at 8:04 PM
talk to you later
duane said this on June 5, 2009 at 8:05 PM
Duane don’t be an ass. Do not ascribe to me what you think I do or know. If you want to see an ass look in a mirror.
People normally come here to research. and tp discsss research with others, instead of your kind of cruel personal entertainment. There are other venues/sites for that as you well know. Please return to those outhouses.
If you have nothing to contribute but negativity and hatred I’d like to ask admins to site ban your IP. If that should happen be assured it would not be any childish decision on your level, but instead a release from you for the rest of us.
GrannyToad said this on June 5, 2009 at 8:05 PM
Hellohello: where did you hear that Wisan accepted the payment?
Greetings from New York said this on June 5, 2009 at 8:06 PM
I suppose, in your view, it is perhaps simply unfortunate that all American slaves were not treated as well as Mr. Jefferson’s.
By your way of thinking we should have simply better regulated the slave’s treatment.
I’m on the side of those who say America did the right thing with slavery, by putting it in the dust bin of history, where it and all barbaric human behavior belongs.
Boots said this on June 5, 2009 at 8:11 PM
No parent or prophet should be allowed to kick a child out of a commnity, especially when they have NO life skills. Why do you think so many of these young boys got into so much trouble, after they were kicked out?
One boy was kicked out, because he committed the Ultimate sin, of giving a girl a necklace!!!
deputydog1 said this on June 5, 2009 at 8:31 PM
So the FLDS dumped him, like someone with an abusive nature might dump a dog on the side of the road, usually out in the country.
Country people see plenty of city dogs that nobody wanted anymore. It’s always sad when they show up half starved on your front porch.
Man, talk about ripping your heart right out.
We feel those things for animals, and then allow an entire two American states to allow this done to their children, without consequence.
You have to wonder what the state of their own humanity is sometimes…that they are all so corrupt to this practice.
Boots said this on June 5, 2009 at 8:38 PM
Well, it sounds heartbreaking and I am sure difficult to go thru, considering they have taught their children for YEARS to be fearful of the outside world and those children ? They are grownups now perpetuating the same belief in their offspring.
However , the fact remains, polygamy is illegal. No matter how many tears were shed. Your brave enough to “buck” the law and do your own thing? Then suck it up when you get caught.
and I also didn’t see you mention that several of the case workers were emotionally traumatized by having to return the children because some of the children DID NOT WANT TO GO BACK and had to be physically guided back to them despite their protest.
Why can’t you look at both sides Duane? Why can’t you understand it brings out the lion in women when we see abused women and children. Maybe the children are their version of “happy”. But when you only know one way to be happy and are threatened if you try and discover other ways, that is not happy. it’s brainwashed. and it’s going to stop.
These women don’t know freedom because they have never had it!!!!
Freedom is NOT TELLING someone what they want to hear for fear of reprisal. Freedom is making the choice to live your life the way you want without fear and intimidation tactics used.
And this group excels at fear and intimidation tactics. That’s why Flora and Kdee drive them crazy. They don’t respond to it, aren’t afraid of it and certainly not afraid to stand up to them.
So much for that keeping sweet, huh?
You don’t have to defend the women to us. We are all aware how hard that was for them and the children, but it all would have been so unnecessary had they followed the law of the land. No underage marriages, quit taking your wives to mental facilities when they don’t keep sweet and give them a CHOICE of leaving with their children.
mississippigirl said this on June 5, 2009 at 8:39 PM
Emotion rarely slips into John Jessop’s conversation. The tough-talking 15-year-old was kicked out of FLDS at 13 and sent back by a court order when he was charged with possessing marijuana. He was kicked out again just days ago for wearing short sleeves, he said.
“It wasn’t really a happy childhood,” John said. “I’m never going to go back there again.” He hopes to be adopted.
There you go duane,, John Jessop was kicked out at 13.
deputydog1 said this on June 5, 2009 at 8:47 PM
Steed, a tall and gangly 19-year-old with faraway brown eyes, was part of the FLDS church and under Jeffs’ control in the suburbs of Salt Lake City. He left at 15 when he was put on religious probation for watching a PG-13 movie. But he still found himself drawn to the church and wanted to return. His relatives wouldn’t let him live with them because he wasn’t in good standing with the church. He worked for his family’s excavation company, earning $5.15 an hour when they paid him. At night, he said he slept in a tool shed on the property.
An eighth-grade dropout, Steed asked Jeffs if he could return to the church, but Steed said Jeffs threw him out, telling him he would not be lifted up to heaven with the other members. “That took all my hope, all my dreams away,” he said.
Slowly learning to survive
Depressed, confused and shunned by his family, Steed attempted suicide several times.
“I was living simply to exist,” he said.
Two years ago, he settled in a nearby town, Hurricane, and began working as a carpet cleaner.
MS girl did you know that sometimes they/FLDS split up the children when they give them away, gift them to different “mothers”, and then lock up the bith mother in some prison they call House of Hiding or some baloney like that, in punishment.
GrannyToad said this on June 5, 2009 at 8:49 PM
Yes, I have read about it. I swear if was I was not stuck in Mississippi for the moment I would leave immediately to go and help these kids and moms re-adjust and get an education.
It really haunts me and I have lain awake at nights trying to figure out how to get Ruby Jessop out of there WITH ALL of her children. I’ve read every book I can get my hands on, every survivor’s story I can find and I think about it every day. I am ashamed I had no idea any of this was going on in ANY PART of the United States.
mississippigirl said this on June 5, 2009 at 9:01 PM
Before I went to Arizona and Utah, I was under, what I now understand was the mistaken impression, that slavery was illegal in my country.
I was wrong. Or rather, I was right, it is illegal, but remains unprosecuted for some unknown reason up there.
All true GrannyToad, Flora’s mom had many of her children removed from her at their births, and given to her Uncle Fred’s concubines.
Some of Flora’s worst abusers were the other women in the house.
Funny, that’s exactly what Phyllis Chesler said about the women she lived in polygamy with, too…but that was all the way over there in Afghanistan.
Boots said this on June 5, 2009 at 9:01 PM
did you even read the article I posted about “slaves” – they too return because they have organized their entire psychology around their status as “slaves”! It takes major intervention in the terms of jobs, counseling, education, for them to be able to cope with the “real” world.
hellohellogoodbye said this on June 5, 2009 at 9:12 PM
GFNY – it is a news article:
hellohellogoodbye said this on June 5, 2009 at 9:13 PM
you mentioned in a post your belief that early Mormon polygamy was the result of immigration of scandanavian women who once they got here and were confronted with it didn’t have an escape hatch. Could you indicate where you came up with this idea/data?
hellohellogoodbye said this on June 5, 2009 at 9:14 PM
Scandianavian? That doesn’t sound right. I know old loose-buttons Smith took underaged girls from NY, or down on the Susquehanna. His daddyinlaw ought to have kicked his rump
GrannyToad said this on June 5, 2009 at 9:31 PM
Allinusara wrote “hat’s how the Taliban got started and so many problems like morality police in Saudi Arabia.”
WHERE do people come up with these ideas? The Taliban is not and was never concerned about the women. None of the repressive rules world wide that decide that women have to wear this or that or can’t drive or have a job….that’s about maintaining the honor of their male relatives! You know, kind of like in the FLDS?
Betty said this on June 5, 2009 at 9:39 PM
I think GFNY (or someone) did relate the circumstance of an individual that came to the new world and under given circumstances it worked out she got involved in unmarried polygamy.
It’s all unmarried except in any case where a couple actually marries, which they’re not doing much any more where FLDS is concerned. They just breed them like livestock, feeding ’em fish heads and lies.
GrannyToad said this on June 5, 2009 at 10:08 PM
Taliban are not Arabs thus have nothing to do with Saudis or any other Arabs. Who came up with that dense notion? O nevermind
Taliban now might be Pashtun from Afghanistan and Pakistan.
GrannyToad said this on June 5, 2009 at 10:13 PM
Granny, Osama Bin Laden is a Saudi Arabian but he and only a handful more are involved with the Taliban, who are Afghanis and Pakistanis.
cajIM said this on June 5, 2009 at 10:41 PM
Well sortakinda. Maybe what you meant is that AlQaeda are arabs, but are not Taliban. Pashto and Arabic are different, but Arabic may be considered a … what, trade language? Arabs with money like binLadin maybe went into a poor people with money, money – power &c ?
GrannyToad said this on June 5, 2009 at 11:08 PM
I remember reading somewhere that Bin Laden actually came from a wealthy family?
deputydog1 said this on June 5, 2009 at 11:13 PM
Yes he did, father was megawealthy #1 contractor in Saudia. I dunno if they’re yemeni or what, zakly.
GrannyToad said this on June 5, 2009 at 11:26 PM
Agreed, GrannyToad, more ignorance. And isn’t it odd that the pedophile apologists (just a playful nickname) can’t tell the difference between countries that are theocracies and those which are not?
Betty said this on June 6, 2009 at 12:20 AM
Yup. I think one of his brothers or half brothers runs the company now. Bin Laden was the child of polygamy and not one of his father’s favorites. Guess which American companies do business regularly with his father’s company?
Betty said this on June 6, 2009 at 12:21 AM
One thing that annoys me is when people say that the women in polygamy don’t complain about it. Then they turn around and say that the women who complain are vengeful apostates. Make up your mind.
Betty said this on June 6, 2009 at 12:24 AM
Ahh you are referring to people who was kidnapped from friends and family. These cases refer to people who lived all their lives surrounded by friends and family: Two diametrically opposites.
The only difference is that Elizabeth Smart and Patty Hearst were indoctrinated over a very short time … as opposed to a lifetime.
FLDS TEXAS said this on June 6, 2009 at 12:52 AM
“In my experience, slaves often know that their enslavement is illegal. Force, violence and psychological coercion have convinced them to accept it. When slaves begin to accept their role and identify with their master, constant physical bondage becomes unnecessary.”
” A girl will be told how her parents will suffer if she does not cooperate and work hard, how the debt is on her shoulders and must be repaid. Thai sex roles are clearly defined, and women are expected to be retiring, nonassertive and obedient–as the women are repeatedly reminded. The pimps also cite religion. The young women are encouraged to believe that they must have committed terrible sins in a past life to deserve their enslavement and abuse. They are urged to accept this karmic debt, to come to terms with it and to reconcile themselves to their fate.”
hellohellogoodbye said this on June 5, 2009 at 4:56 PM (edit)
The similarities to the FLDS cannot be ignored. That is why it is not particularly compelling when an FLDS woman or child insists she is happy and has never been abused.
FLDS TEXAS said this on June 6, 2009 at 1:01 AM
about Slavery? Yeah sure they accepted it, slave revolts were suicidal, only one was successful and that let to Haiti. After the civil war even whites were starving in the south, as soon as ex-slaves had the slightest means they were more than happy to break from their old masters. That is one of the issues that Reconstruction tried to resolve.
Many fundie religions shun their apostates, Amish do so very severly, more so than the FLDS. Ex-muslims are likely be killed in some Islamic countries.
Is it difficult for a polygamist wife with 7 kids to leave? Right now it is lucrative because of the rescue ranger groups. Ignoring them, yes it would be difficult just as it would be for a Monogamist fundie pentecostal housewife with 7 kids. Polygmaists are not slaves, they have a choice, there are not slave patrols nor state laws requiring them to stay.
As far as being born into a polygamist family? What about being born in a ghetto family? what about being born in a Muslim fundie family. We have to be responsible for our own lot in life, the government can’t solve our problems, whatever happened to personal responsibility?
Is it fair that Paris Hilton was a millionaire at birth? I wasn’t! Life is not alwasy fair! We need to accept the cards that we are dealt and live with it.
John Jessop? Kicked out at 13, returned at 15 then booted for a short sleeve shirt?
Hmm, Brent jeffs came home drunk in middle of the night, basically told his mom to stuff it. His dad was more emphathetic. The girl he was out with, her dad reported Brent to Warren. he had to go see warren who gave him an a@@ chewing but DIDN’T KICK HIM OUT! Hmmm?
Im sure there is more to the story with this John Jessop, maybe his parents were a-holes, if so, that is reflection on them, not everyone else.
kdog?? so offensive? I wasn’t referring to her appearance. What a bunch of goofballs you guys are.
duane said this on June 6, 2009 at 1:18 AM
BTW boots, you said you wanted to debat willie or some other flds dude? A better debate would be between you and an FLDS women, ask about that.
duane said this on June 6, 2009 at 1:21 AM
Just as FLDS women, who give birth to sick, deformed, or dead babies are told it was caused by some unconfessed sin on their part.
She could have commited any number of sins bad enough to cause her poor baby this fate; having sex when not fertile, such as when pregnant or on a period, failing to always “keep sweet”, not living in “Harmony” with her sister wives, etc.
That’s what an FLDS woman gets to hear when her baby is born terribly deformed or dead, not, ‘Gee maybe we shouldn’t have given you to your half second cousin’s uncle, twice removed’.
Sorry I can’t help thinking what must have been going through Mary Cooke’s mind as she gave birth to her 8th stillborn baby. I wonder what sins she probably blamed herself for on the 8th go round?
Maybe the saddest part of all, is that Mary would never dream of uttering the words, “I was abused”.
Boots said this on June 6, 2009 at 1:23 AM
The offer was clearly made to anyone in the FLDS, Duane. I think a guy who owns and runs a news paper can figure out how to communicate that the offer was open to anyone from the FLDS….:::shivers::: even the women!
Boots said this on June 6, 2009 at 1:26 AM
HHG, I didn’t say explicitly Scandinavian; however, the majority of LDS convert-immigrants were from Scandinavia and England.
That theory is partly conjecture on my part and partly conventional wisdom. For example, “Audacious Women: Early British Mormon Immigrants” by Rebecca Bartholomew found that a third of the women studied by the author entered into plural marriages after arriving in the US.
The United States has always been open to immigration by single European women. There have been more men than women in most settlement regions in our history, from Jamestown west. So it made sense to encourage immigrant women to move west to domesticate those places. This is where we get our phrase, “mail-order bride”.
It stands to reason that the same process of redressing the gender imbalance in the rest of the country was used to redress the gender imbalance in Mormon Utah. As Betty pointed out earlier, Utah was still a male domain even during the polygamy era—men outnumbered women.
(Of course, in the 19th century, vast numbers of single women were also absorbed into the factories of the northeast and into domestic service.)
Greetings from New York said this on June 6, 2009 at 1:33 AM
No milk and cookies for you before bed tonite duane, you been a bad boy!!!!!! Bwhahahhahaah
deputydog1 said this on June 6, 2009 at 1:38 AM
Patty Hearst and Elizabeth Smart were also beautiful, telegenic young women who had the public’s sympathy and whose families applied constant pressure on their behalf.
I think if you had to identify one reason they succeeded in escaping, it was that their families opposed, rather than endorsed, their brainwashing.
Greetings from New York said this on June 6, 2009 at 1:44 AM
duane, you seriously need to quit listening to Pliggy, he’s a bad influence. Pliggy (alan holm) tells everyone he knows every detail of every person’s life in FLDS, in and out of FLDS, how old is Pliggy ? 200 yrs old? I know your getting information, although very misguided information from Pliggy. The man who couldn’t hack it having sex with his own wife, and had preferred PORN on the internet.
deputydog1 said this on June 6, 2009 at 1:44 AM
I have a bunch of postings to read, but I had to jump to the bottom to comment on a couple of things first.
I think that Alinusara10 just might be a Centennial Park person who is posting. Don’t ask me why, buy it is just a STRONG gut feeling from what this poster says. And Centennial Park is ALL FOR POLYGAMY. Just not Warren’s version, but their own version that is still as abusive, but not AS abusive. (They are just a happy group of child molesters with NO abuse in THEIR community)
Then there is the Duane post of “duane said this on June 5, 2009 at 6:22 PM” that is so vicious that it really makes me think that he is indeed a member of the FLDS. Kind of like Willie the Thug spouting off on things, but Duane is just down right vicious in this post and if he isn’t FLDS (current or previous) then why is he voicing this as such a PERSONAL matter?
Anonymous said this on June 6, 2009 at 4:47 AM
GFNY — precisely so. Those young women were not trying to escape and even after having spent so little time in captivity, they were protective or their captors. Their families were committed to helping them, and the media was not stupid enough to put them on the air saying “we’re happy, we’ve never been abused, we’re not brainwaished” Three cheers for the press contributing to the ongoing enslavement of victims.
Prime example — Oprah asking Betty if she thinks she’s brainwashed. What kind of moronic question is that? By definition, someone who is “brainwashed” does not have insight into their condition; indoctrination can only happen in the absence of self-appraisal.
FLDS TEXAS said this on June 6, 2009 at 4:52 AM
Duane .. last warning, quit calling names . That includes twisting someone’s moniker into an insulting name. You have been given some latitude here, and you have been on better behavior but you’re getting close to the line and I’d really not like to have to start deleting posts again. Please.
FLDS TEXAS said this on June 6, 2009 at 4:56 AM
This is going to sound sad, but I think duane really believes what he is saying. Maybe he came from an abusive home and doesn’t understand what Abuse entails.
Since he never has a Girl child, of course he can’t understand why it would be abuse to marry a 12yr old off to anyone, especially an Adult in his 40’s 50’s or 60’s.
Plus, he listens to what he assumes in “Wise Pliggy”. That seems to be a major problem.
deputydog1 said this on June 6, 2009 at 3:28 PM
OK anonymous @2:29 I will agree to stop using my playful nickname for duane when he stops using his.
LadySadie said this on June 6, 2009 at 6:33 PM
I would guess alin as part of the Centennial Park group, very closely related (in all ways including biological) to the FLDS but trying to seperate themselves from the stink of Short Creek.
LadySadie said this on June 6, 2009 at 7:24 PM
“Oprah asking Betty if she thinks she’s brainwashed. What kind of moronic question is that? By definition, someone who is “brainwashed” does not have insight into their condition; indoctrination can only happen in the absence of self-appraisal.”
FLDS Texas, she had 4 years of “freedom” plenty of time for “self appraisal”, yet she still went back. The term “brainwashed” is being perverted by the anti-flds. You guys are using it as justification to disregard and brush off the opinions choices of flds women. When native americans were driven off their lands and nearly exterminated by white settlers, the justification was that they were “savages” and “uncivilized”, terms that are interchangeable with “brainwashed” as its being used on this blog.
Who is to say you are not “brainwashed”? These women are not cutoff from the outside world. Many have college degrees and are teachers, nurses, emt’s, and accountants. When YFZ was raided, some women took jobs as RN’s and emts. At least one was a Nurse Practitioner-masters level position. They also have some pretty decent business savvy as they have opened an online store and doing pretty well, btw their dresses are being bought by Pentecostal women.
However I supposed the brainwash tact was being used in response to my addressing the “can’t leave cuz she has 7 kids” issues.
Also if you read the apostate books, they talk about driving around in trucks and cars, going to beer parties, trips to las vegas, shopping trips to st. george, vacations to lake powell, spending $150 on beer then throwing a big party and getting smashed. Plygkid-a young ex-flds man who used to blog on the tribune, talked about his dirt bike-a KTM 250, his buddy had a Honda CR250, trail riding and riding motocross in the deserts around short creek. Maggie Jessop writes of a trip to Sea world last summer. Many flds women have posted on various blogs, they obviously have internet access. So this talk of “brainwashed” is just more bs and serves to rationalize the anti-flds agenda without having to take into account anything the flds people have to say.
About the name calling, the nickname I gave to kdee ignatin, was alluding to how “tough” she thinks she is. Look at all the names I have been called, why aren’t you saying anything to betty or ladysadie? Not that it offends me, I take it as a sign that my message is getting through, thus the vicious and incoherent rebuttals.
duane said this on June 6, 2009 at 8:17 PM
Absolutely no calling anyone a “child molester” even in jest. It will not be tolerated and I regret that I have to apologize to duane for allowing those posts and calling him out for his insulting names.
Please, all of you — no name calling, period. if you address each other , use the monikers that each has selected.
Now I am going back to delete posts where this has occurred.
FLDS TEXAS said this on June 6, 2009 at 8:44 PM
Plygkid did talk about his dirt bike,when he was very young duane, but I remember correctly, at 10 yrs old he was claimed by Jeffs to be a “temple worker” and from that point on he was working full time at construction, not in school. He admits he only had maybe an eighth grade education. That he was became rebellious, and who could blame him? He had to live in a shed over the garage because he refused to NOT obey and listened to rock music. Then his father was kicked out and all the work his father had done on their house, was down the drain…Yes he left on his own, when he couldn’t take it any longer… If we are telling the truth here duane, then tell the Whole truth!!
deputydog1 said this on June 6, 2009 at 10:08 PM
Plygkid is now married and continues to try to put the pieces of his life back together. His mother refuses to talk to him because he brought up Warren Jeffs…. Pretty much a damn shame duane don’t you think???
deputydog1 said this on June 6, 2009 at 10:09 PM
Pligkid is another peice of FLDS failure. Sure he got his life from them just like Pliggy and I would deny neither of them that… and hope they both continue on a path to better themselves.
Which brings up a point. 10,000 FLDS need to start on a path to better themselves. Or not, but then, prison awaits those that dont, or wont, learn.
Stamp said this on June 6, 2009 at 10:41 PM
I dont mean to say PK is a failure – that reads wrong. The man is incredibly awesome DESPITE what he was handed in life.
All my best to him. I hope AL does well too but first he must get a grip.
PK is light years ahead of Al.
Stamp said this on June 6, 2009 at 10:43 PM
Your correct Stamp! Plygkid is awesome, it’s a shame it has taken so long for him to finally adjust to the world, but he seems to be doing a FINE job of it now. He found an awesome gracious wife who loves him with all heart, they are both lucky to have found each other.
deputydog1 said this on June 6, 2009 at 10:51 PM
Plykid had a KTM 250, that is a full size dirt bike with a lot of power, no way a 10 year old could ride it on his own.
Funny how plygkid says his life was fine, he wasn’t abused and you guys insist that he was abused and he had to “put the pieces back together”. He stoppped posting because pliggy warned him that the anti flds crowd was using him and that they would turn on him in a heartbeat. That is exactly what happened, one of his last posts was “I hate it when pliggy is right”. I would also remind you that he loved Rulon Jeffs, thought he was a great guy.
I also got some personal emails from him right after he stopped posting, he was furious at the way Texas was pursuing the young mothers.
duane said this on June 6, 2009 at 11:23 PM
Not going to argue with you about plygkid duane, he isn’t here to say anything. He’s a good guy, the fact he left FLDS speaks for itself as far as im concerned.
deputydog1 said this on June 6, 2009 at 11:40 PM
May I put this through the FLDS priesthood translator for you, Duane?
Pliggy is most likely trying to make promises to plykid, which he probably cannot keep. He’s probably got him convinced that once Warren is out of the way, they can ALL get back IN.
The parade begins.
Who will come out on TOP? Who will get the power? Who will finally get to return, victorious, to the fold, large and in charge?
Warren’s top concubines have to be getting very fidgety about now, too.
Boots said this on June 6, 2009 at 11:45 PM
Sorry boots, plygkid is now agnostic…any other theories you want to share?
duane said this on June 6, 2009 at 11:55 PM
I have no idea id Plykid is even a real person, Duane.
Has he published his identity, openly, somewhere in the past?
Has he, as others who have left made himself “real”?
I always have many theories. I am always looking for the logical, factual, truth. If I theorize, and find I am wrong about something, I generally eliminate it from further consideration, and move on.
I’m making an educated guess, based on past behavior by other exiled FLDS members.
Maybe Kevin Barlow can get them all back together, like one big happy family?
Boots said this on June 7, 2009 at 1:10 AM
I have not failed.
I’ve just found 10,000 ways that won’t work.
Boots said this on June 7, 2009 at 1:13 AM
So… “I also got some personal emails from him right after he stopped posting, he was furious at the way Texas was pursuing the young mothers.”
So PK quits posting because of Texas? LOL
I cant beleive there is one single person FLDS or EX who is happy with Warren, Willie or Wisan not to mention the State of Texas.
FLDS people carry so much baggage they all need three bell boys just to keep from spinning out of control.
PK was given a lot of support from anti-child abuse proponents – but yeah his feelings probably got hurt along the way.
He should be thanking his lucky stars he got out of there and isnt set up for 30 years like his peers.
The CRAP hit the fan in that group and it aint over yet by a long shot – still a lot of internal strife to deal with too.
Check back this time in ten years – it’ll still be FUBAR.
Stamp said this on June 7, 2009 at 1:38 AM
“The evil that is in the world almost always comes of ignorance, and good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence if they lack understanding.”
duane said this on June 7, 2009 at 1:40 AM
Good thing I’m not ignorant of the law, or the issues then, isn’t it, Duane?
Boots said this on June 7, 2009 at 1:50 AM
I went back through Old topic on the Tribe,,,I found some of Plygkid’s posts and read then in context of what the topic was at the time.
duane you NEVER listened to what Plygkid said,you talked over him, and around him , but YOU NEVER LISTENED!!!!
You and Pliggy both, ignored what he was saying on his posts!
deputydog1 said this on June 7, 2009 at 2:01 AM
Which is why I find it so odd that he suddenly found Pliggy to be “right”.
Boots said this on June 7, 2009 at 2:05 AM
The actual reason that PK stopped posting is because with the economy and downswing in the construction business, he lost his job and does not have internet access at home. He still keeps in contact with a few of us via email whenever he gets a chance to use a computer with internet access. He is still doing good, even though he is still out of work his spirits are still very upbeat and he and his wife are still very happy together.
His lack of posting had absolutely nothing to do with Pliggy.
LadySadie said this on June 7, 2009 at 2:09 AM
I’ll qualify that, it had absolutely nothing to do with Pliggy unless you think Pliggy controls the economy and is the cause of PK’s losing his job.
LadySadie said this on June 7, 2009 at 2:10 AM
Actually he seldom agreed with Pliggy!
deputydog1 said this on June 7, 2009 at 2:30 AM
OH, dear. TexasFLDS, get out your delete button, you’re going to need it.
Betty said this on June 7, 2009 at 3:38 AM
Back in the late 1940’s and early 1950’s Joseph White Musser (who was the head dude on the Priesthood Council with John Y. Barlow, Rulon Jeffs, Marion Hammon and Alma Timpson) was studying the German Nazi’s way of indoctrination and incorporating some of these tactics into his religious philosophy and sermons.
Duane might find offense with the word “brainwash” so maybe we should be politically correct and just call what the FLDS does as “indoctrination”.
The thing is that the FLDS members are indoctrinated from a VERY early age and it is constant – day in and day out. If you are told something often enough and in an ongoing manner, then your brain tends to just accept what you hear and what you are told, whether or not you agree with it. It just seems to become accepted by your conscience as truth.
I would consider that to be “brainwashing” but we can just call it “indoctrination”. It all boils down the the same end result.
And the early Priesthood leaders were making it a point to learn about and then use these tactics in order to control their religious followers.
Anonymous said this on June 7, 2009 at 3:41 AM
Hey, Duane, I just talked to Plygkid last week. He’s doing fine.
He quit visiting the boards because he was sick of the ceaseless argument, not because he thought Texas was persecuting anyone or that Pliggy was right. After reading the above posts I have to say that he had a point.
(I think I’ll tell him we’re still talking about him; he’ll probably get a laugh out of that.)
Does he think he’s a victim? No. Would he be easily victimized? Absolutely not—he has a strong self-will that would never let it happen. Do I think he’s a victim? Yes, because he was never educated and he’s been working since his early teens. He’s quite bright, but his options are limited by his lack of education.
I love that boy. He’s an awesome kid with a great attitude and a lot of smarts, and I pray for the best for him.
Greetings from New York said this on June 7, 2009 at 3:41 AM
If you don’t like the heat, then get out of the kitchen.
Anonymous said this on June 7, 2009 at 3:50 AM
If you don’t like the heat, then get out of the kitchen,
Anonymous said this on June 7, 2009 at 3:51 AM
Most EVERYBODY has moved over here. The Trib is mouldering away with no new stories for days on end. So why not Celia?
Greetings from New York said this on June 7, 2009 at 3:56 AM
Ok everybody knock it off with the personal attacks, attempts to “out” anonymous posters, calling others bigots and haters – and generally rolling around in the dirt and trying to drag others down with you. I mean it – knock it off right now. I and the other admin here don’t have time to read every post in real time and babysit and I’m not going to continue to post these warnings and reminders. If one “side” is provoking and breaking rules the other “side” needs to rise above it rather than respond in kind. If it is only one “side” or one person, I will ban their IP if it continues. But if it’s both “sides” we will either have to send comments through moderation or turn comments off completely. I do not want to do that so please continue the discussion without the low-rent personal attacks and off the wall hostility.
FLDS TEXAS said this on June 7, 2009 at 4:27 AM
Anonymous said this on June 7, 2009 at 6:05 AM
That’s yes sir, and thank you.
Carry on …
FLDS TEXAS said this on June 7, 2009 at 6:35 AM
….I hope it’s not inappropriate, but after 45 yrs. on *this* planet and not planet FLDS….I’ve often found that when stressed (ad hominems and such) it’s best to get stoned…Rolling Stoned.
** I’d like to personally thank all the disingenuous, obtuse-criminal-supporters for migrating to this blog…affording the opportunity for great “stone throwing” and general ALL-CAPS ranting. (Can’t wait for Debater to “cross over”) smiles.
TexasMom said this on June 7, 2009 at 9:32 AM
DANG! …didn’t link…if ya wanna :
Rolling Stones – Saint Of Me
is the youtube search. 🙂
TexasMom said this on June 7, 2009 at 9:34 AM
Debater has been locked out.
FLDS TEXAS said this on June 7, 2009 at 1:54 PM
But not before sneaking in some word salad!
““The evil that is in the world almost always comes of ignorance, and good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence if they lack understanding.”
duane said this on June 7, 2009 at 1:40 AM ”
What that stands up and tells me, is that the “supporters” like yourself, BillM, 40, F&A, etc have done more harm than good.
You all are not in tune with the ways of the FLDS and every excuse is met with further outrage – because actions of the FLDS at times are inexcusable.
So in your attempt to put up a defense, you actually do more harm than anyone else could do. If we paid you, you couldnt do them more harm to their choice of lifestyle.
I dont think your run-of-the -mill Texan thinks like you – they DONT want more molesters out and about moving in from Shortcrick.
The louder you clambor for that to happen the faster the door is gonna slam shut.
Sooo Keep up the good work!
Stamp said this on June 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM
I just got a new letter from Yanar Mohammed, president of the Organization for Women’s Freedom in Iraq. I have posted it on the AAAP’s blog if anyone is interested.
It seems she’s a little irked that we are accomodating the cultural abuse of women in Iraq.
Like Flora said, “Thanks a lot for bowing down to an entire culture of abuse towards women”.
Boots said this on June 7, 2009 at 3:34 PM
POLYGAMY . . . . HOW FAST DOES IT GROW?
Since women are mandated to build their husbands kingdom by giving him as many children as they can in polygamy, I have put the numbers from an actual FLDS genealogy chart down so even those of great intellect can see the results clearly. Keep in mind that these totals DO NOT take into consideration that ½ of the children will be males with multiple concubines thus raising the numbers considerably.
Oh and lets not forget the loving practice of child abandonment which I have also added for you to see.
Wife 1- 17 children
Wife 2- 15 children
Wife 3- 10 children
Wife 4- 16 children
Wife 5- 12 children
Wife 6- 14 children
Total = 84 children
Each wife has 14 kids….
6 X 14 = 84 children (42 abandoned boys)
each have 14 children
84 X 14 = 1176 grandchildren (with 588 abandoned boys)
each have 14 children
1176 X 14 = 16,464 great grandchildren (8232 abandoned boys)
Just think of the abuses, birth defects, and other generational perpetuating crimes inherent with the practice of polygamy. It’s in the numbers cowboy. Argue with that and make me believe polygamy should be left alone.
Can we still spell WELFARE? But Just think…. Maybe with those numbers there will also be a few more of ME produced as well. :~)
Flora said this on June 7, 2009 at 3:38 PM
Yeah, they breed like rats! I think Fumarase is blooming and slowing that down though – ….
Sticking the preisthood in prison “may” slow down their attendant wives birth rate too – hmmmm.
Texas is giving them a RODEO! I just saw them get bucked off!
Stamp said this on June 7, 2009 at 3:47 PM
I did similar numbers on FLDS based on their own estimates in the early part of last century, but using much more conservative numbers per woman (an average of 6). And I find that there has to be something wrong with this picture. They must have a really high rate of people leaving….cause otherwise, there would be about 2 milion people in the FLDS about now.
Betty said this on June 7, 2009 at 3:54 PM
I’ll check that – but off the cuff I think we have a hard time instilling the values “MOST” Americans love, and fought and died for.
Iranians in Southern CA were always notorious in their habit of attempting to make themselves appear superior to CA women.
TOO FUNNY but OTOH TOO SAD.
Stamp said this on June 7, 2009 at 4:00 PM
I remember a recent comment from someone (last few days, different site) that studies have shown that polygamy actually lowers the birth rate, all other things being equal. So, for instance, in Mali, Africa, where the rate of polygamy is one of the highest in the world and most polygamists are wealthier than their monogamist neighbors, the birth rate is lower for polygamists per WOMAN than for monogamists. Lots of possible explanations…the study suggested that the older women are just set aside and stop having children as the husband takes on new brides. Not sure if that applies to Mormon fundamentalism because they are actually trying to have babies. I may go looking for that study, I think it’s kind of interesting.
Betty said this on June 7, 2009 at 4:03 PM
You have to remember that those numbers are GENERATIONAL not instant. In 1953 there were 236 children in Short Creek and in 56 years there are an estimated 10-12,000 members of the FLDS…..
Hildale Medical Center
10 yr total 3452
As to that study Betty refers to I think whoever did it needs to put down their crack pipe.
Flora said this on June 7, 2009 at 4:13 PM
“When you cant recruit, procreate!”
Stamp said this on June 7, 2009 at 4:14 PM
Note the drop off the latter two years – I presume this is due to the migration to Texas?
Still – staggering numbers. And what is the guess on how many of these are FD, or if the FD children arent included in this number?
Do you think they are aborting FD fetuses?
Stamp said this on June 7, 2009 at 4:17 PM
By and large I think FLDS families are very good loving families. Far more family/child oriented than families outside their group.
Celia said this on June 7, 2009 at 4:32 PM
By and large I could not agree about calling FLDS “very good loving families” when they throw out sons, pimp out little girls, fathers don’t know the childrens’ names, fathers get tossed so their children CANNOT speak of them or see them again, same with mothers, children are just given away to someone else if either or both parents displease Warren Jeffs. I could go on.
My brush may be wider than neccessary but lay down with dogs get up with fleas.
DO NOT try to tell me this is untrue, you do not know those people, nor the facts I know.
GrannyToad said this on June 7, 2009 at 5:45 PM
In addition to the abuse there are the other criminal behaviors. Mann Act, RICO, tax evasions, welfare abuses, &c &c &c
GrannyToad said this on June 7, 2009 at 5:47 PM
Average household size according to 2000 census in Hildale was 8.2 persons and in 7.5 in Colorado City vs. 3.08 for Utah and 2.59 for the US in general. (“Family size” is a useless distinction since the word means something else to them than us.)*
No question the residents of Short Creek were having kids at a far higher rate than the rest of the country: 22.6% of Hildale’s population and 20.5% of Colorado City’s population was under age five, whereas Utah’s percentage was 9.4% and the nation’s was 6.8%.
Oddly, Utah had more men then women (50.1/49.9; the nation’s ratio was 49.1/50.9). Hildale’s ratio was almost exactly the national ratio, but Colorado City’s was definitely skewed toward men, at 50.7/49.3. (Some of this is explained by the high percentage of kids in the population, but not all.)
I spent a while last week fishing through old census data to consider the exact question Flora did. (Using hospital birth records was more efficient; I applaud her.) The numbers for the former Short Creek are almost uncalculable because the census enumeration tracts shifted so much. But there was a clear depopulation in northern Mohave County in the early middle of the 20th century. The modern numbers show fast growth.
On the other hand, Hildale’s numbers showed no discernable pattern but were a jagged mess of ups and downs. Part of that has to do with what was counted (we won’t know until the street-by-street records become public later this century) but part is probably real population spasm.
Malthus wasn’t right about everything, but he was correct in this: “The vices of mankind are active and able ministers of depopulation.” So it will be interesting to see what the 2010 census tells us about Hildale/Colorado City.
*For the record, I don’t care if people have big families, if they’re self-supporting.
Greetings from New York said this on June 7, 2009 at 5:55 PM
Remember that People , women and girls were being taken to different areas to , like Colorado, Idaho, Wyoming and Montana, and during Rulon’s reign to Canada!
deputydog1 said this on June 7, 2009 at 7:09 PM
Yeah, they breed like rats!
Thanks stamp, I always appreciate it when my opinion is validated.
duane said this on June 7, 2009 at 7:56 PM
Greetings , I doubt that will tell us very much, in the 2000 census each family in US was mailed a census packet to fill out and send back. I filled mine out, but I know lots of people who threw them in the trash, because they refused to do anything to do with government. Secondly, since most families in Utah Arizona flds have multiple wives, they aren’t honestly going to put all family members down if they do fill the census out. If they did, the FEDS could by Federal law come after them.
deputydog1 said this on June 7, 2009 at 8:32 PM
Flora wrote “As to that study Betty refers to I think whoever did it needs to put down their crack pipe.”
Match an Irish Catholic family circa 1954, no birth control, no cable tv, and you’ve got birth rates as high as any woman in the FLDS.
The studies I have seen in a quick review of the internet are all about countries like India and Mali where they can study polygamy and monogamy side by side openly. I think the thing that’s special about the FLDS is that they take having babies on as a mission in and of itself.
The number of children per MAN would go up with polygamy but the average number per WOMAN may not, because no matter how many men you assign to the task, only women have babies. If a polygamist man has to travel for work and is away from his wives none of them get pregnant. Ditto an older man getting fresh young wives while his abilities decline and the chances of miscarriage go up.
In subsistence countries like India, the survival rate is often higher for monogamist over polygamist families because the working adult income is spread over fewer people. This can also affect the health of the woman and thus how many children she has.
In the muslim world, generally only richer men are polygamists and often they keep their wives in separate houses and often travel for work and between wives. If a polygamist man and his wife don’t get along, he just visits her less often and thus her baby making goes down. The monogamous man down the block has no choice, so he keeps making babies with the wife, arguments or not.
Betty said this on June 7, 2009 at 8:44 PM
Math problem. Let’s start in 1920 with 1000 polygamist wives. Let’s assume a generation is 20 years. let’s assume that the wife reproduction rate is 7 (given the house hold size in Hilldale in 2000).
1910 Generation 1: 1000 wives = 7000 children
1920 Generation 2: half of those children are wives, so 3500*7=
1940 Generation 3: half of those children are wives, so 12250+7=
1960 Generation 4: half of those children are wives, so 42875*7=
1980 Generation 5: half of those children are wives, so 150062*7=
2000 Generation 6 nets half a million potential wives.
But in fact, the number of people who are FLDS have remained pretty constant since 1980. Anybody know what the population was in 1953?
Either the reproduction rate overall is not that high, or MOST (80%???) people leave.
Betty said this on June 7, 2009 at 9:06 PM
Also, let’s talk about men who have 30 wives. Let’s say 20 of them are not in a reproductive state either because of age, or because they are already pregnant. Then you have 10 women in a baby making rotation. Each woman only has three chances per month to get pregnant, assuming the man never takes a day off. A monogamous woman who did not use birth control and wanted a lot of babies could have three chances at getting pregnant in a single weekend AND target her fertility cycle.
Speaking of which, there is the harem effect, a well documented scientific phenomenon in which women who live together get their cycles in sync. So if of those 10 women, 6 of them were fertile AT the same time, either someone is going without, or that poor man is going to have to quit his day job.
Betty said this on June 7, 2009 at 9:12 PM
duane does your bigot meter take readings on Priesthood members that believe in the ‘Mark of Ham’ or root of Cain, does it sense ‘Blood Atonement’ believers, people who call fellow Americans ‘Gentiles’, can it rate ‘Evil Doers’ inside the FLDS or does it it sense “hierarchical fanatics”? It must seem like hell to live in such a small belief group faced with Democratic majority viewpoints that will always overrule your baseless claims and bankrupt values. Say hello to all your followers at Denny’s for us. I guess your not serious about trying to pass a Bigamy amendment to the U.S. Constitution or starting a Polygamy Party to elect your own representatives to Congress? What exactly is your ‘fundamental’ problem at initiating your own solution? Posting your bitter spew at people on blogs is a waste of anyone’s time and highly prejudiced.
cajIM said this on June 7, 2009 at 9:24 PM
They wouldnt argue with that at all. They have a program, and its breed as many and as fast as you can. No worries about growing up or responsibilities, the government feeds the kiddies milk and cheese and quite often pays the other bills.
Maybe Rats would like to breed like polygamists?
Maybe not, what rat wants to go to prison..?
Stamp said this on June 7, 2009 at 9:40 PM
Yeah, what does Jeffs mean when he tells a woman that she better get home and submit or she will be “destroyed in the flesh”? Doesn’t that sound like a murder threat to you? Or is he talking about the second coming? (pun intended)
Betty said this on June 7, 2009 at 9:45 PM
Cajim, they can believe in the “mark of cain” all they want. If they start dragging african-americans behind trucks, then I will take issue and be the first to denounce them.
In regard to their alleged “anti-americanism” as of late, YFZ pillage ’08 goes a long way in explaining such attitudes.
I do not condone underage marriage however our definition needs to be a bit more consistent. Whatever WJeffs did or did not do is between him, his alleged victims, and the courts, not everyone else in the religious sect. Same goes for alleged child labor violations, welfare fraud, and the untold and frankly unbelievable number of other assorted crimes said to have been commiitted by these dastardly flds folks.
duane said this on June 7, 2009 at 9:48 PM
“I do not condone underage marriage however our definition needs to be a bit more consistent. Whatever WJeffs did or did not do is between him, his alleged victims, and the courts, not everyone else in the religious sect. Same goes for alleged child labor violations, welfare fraud, and the untold and frankly unbelievable number of other assorted crimes said to have been commiitted by these dastardly flds folks.”
NO NO NO duene! The crimes of the FLDS become EVERYBODIES BUSINESS when it costs us money to handle whether in LE expenses, WIC or welfare.
Who pays for the Utah Safety Net? The FLDS? LMAO they dont even show up.
When your taxes start funding crap it better be your business or they will steal you blind.
The FLDS have already worn out their welcome. Now we need to watch them like a hawk so they dont cost us more in some other assinine way.
The days of the government sticking its head in the sand are over.
And we’re gonna make sure the government smells every FLDS fart!
Stamp said this on June 7, 2009 at 10:05 PM
OK stamp, I would say “move in next door to Stamp and Cajim and breed away, just make sure they’re legal!” hahahahaha.
Seriously, I don’t agree with all their beliefs and doctrines, but to attack them on the belief that a woman’s highest calling is motherhood and children…that is typical of conservative religious denominations, check out “Focus on the Family” and “Christian Coalition” websites.
Many of their doctines about Priesthood, Celestial heaven, Celestial marriage, Godhead, etc…that falls right in line with the LDS. I do not like their hierchial view of heaven, but that is a standard Mormon belief…on second thought maybe it is better than just Heaven or Hell, but I really don’t care one way or another. No one knows what happens when we die nor do I ever expect that question to ever be answered, we’ll only know when the grim reaper calls.
At any rate, they have just as much right to their beliefs as any of us do. There is nothing in FLDS canon that states “thall shall take thee underage bride in thy land of Caesar”. Those issues should be easy to resolve, some minor tweaking on their part and they are in compliance with the a law, that is the issue that the general public cares about the most by far, so I predict there won’t be much problem in that dept. in the future.
duane said this on June 7, 2009 at 10:11 PM
Duane, did you stick your head in a magic hat to come up with that prediction?
Boots said this on June 7, 2009 at 10:17 PM
Stamp (who I absolutely adore) probably should have said, “They breed like rabbits in Oz.”
I agree with your general premise that language has an impact beyond the strength of mere words, Duane. But then you write off as harmless the far uglier text in WSJ’s statements like, “The black race is the people through which the devil has always been able to bring evil unto the earth.”
Greetings from New York said this on June 7, 2009 at 10:44 PM
greetings, from what I understand, much of Warren’s speeches about blacks were taken directly from Brigham Young’s writings.
Remember the LDS had the same views before 1978. They believe that the black race is “cursed”, I also undestand that according to them, the antichrist will be a black person.
However they don’t believe in attacking and killing blacks nor discriminating against them like the KKK. Blacks also will get a chance at salvation when they die…technically, they can even join the FLDS, just can’t hold the priesthood.
BTW, what is the slightly less evil Cent. Park group’s views on blacks? The AUB? Kingstons? they share the same views?
duane said this on June 7, 2009 at 10:59 PM
Thanks, and ya know its mutual! XOXO
Yeah, Warren put them on the “Hate Group” map if they werent already there.
“At any rate, they have just as much right to their beliefs as any of us do. There is nothing in FLDS canon that states “thall shall take thee underage bride in thy land of Caesar”. Those issues should be easy to resolve, some minor tweaking on their part and they are in compliance with the a law, that is the issue that the general public cares about the most by far, so I predict there won’t be much problem in that dept. in the future.
duane said this on June 7, 2009 at 10:11 PM”
There are Satanic cults and KKK around who dont find themselves in a bind with the law. Lots of plygs in Utah too.
That the FLDS want to follow other lawless plygs like the Lafferties, Kingstons and LeBarons will have you finding they shot your prediction in the foot.
This FLDS issue has boiled to a head – now its coming down to the brass tacks and people are going to prison for DECADES.
Look to Warren for the reasons, its here in his dictations.
But it proves to be Kryptonite to die hard fundies – they are SHOCKED – SHOCKED I TELL YOU to see how false their false Prophet really is.
Stamp said this on June 7, 2009 at 11:01 PM
“technically, they can even join the FLDS, just can’t hold the priesthood.”
Technically, you are ignorant of their membership program.
Stamp said this on June 7, 2009 at 11:03 PM
Also, since polygamy is such a god awful practice that no normal woman would voluntarily “submit” to. What is the deal with all the blogs and websites by Mormon women looking for sister wives?
Are those really men posing as women in order to make polygamy appear appealing to women?
duane said this on June 7, 2009 at 11:05 PM
No stamp, Surely they arent taking new members now are in the recent past for obvious reasons. But in their history, there have been “converts” to the FLDS, though they never were evangelical by any stretch of the imagination.
duane said this on June 7, 2009 at 11:09 PM
duane wrote “Seriously, I don’t agree with all their beliefs and doctrines, but to attack them on the belief that a woman’s highest calling is motherhood and children…that is typical of conservative religious denominations, check out “Focus on the Family” and “Christian Coalition” websites.”
I hate those, too. What’s your point?
Dogs have babies. Slaves have babies. Crack whores have babies. What is a holy and high calling is contributing to the betterment of anybody and everybody. That may mean being a caring and energetic mother to a bunch of kids, or foster kids, or it could mean being a research scientist. And I think every boy and girl child needs the opportunity to define that for themselves, without being issued a job description at birth. I’m funny that way.
Betty said this on June 7, 2009 at 11:18 PM
GFNY wrote “I agree with your general premise that language has an impact beyond the strength of mere words, Duane. ”
Would that duane practiced this premise himself.
Betty said this on June 7, 2009 at 11:19 PM
duane wrote “greetings, from what I understand, much of Warren’s speeches about blacks were taken directly from Brigham Young’s writings.”
And that makes it OK? You spend lots of time calling other’s bigots when you are defending bigots. And you KNOW that. So, why?
Betty said this on June 7, 2009 at 11:20 PM
duane, have you ever heard of that child porn scandal in mineola? What do you think about that?
Betty said this on June 7, 2009 at 11:21 PM
duane, FLDS don’t follow laws anywhere, not Utah, Texas, Arizona, Nevada…. Hell half the businesses owned by Flds are being sued by the public they did work for.
deputydog1 said this on June 7, 2009 at 11:21 PM
Where do you find that stuff Duane, Craigslist?
GrannyToad said this on June 7, 2009 at 11:26 PM
Betty, I do believe that many FLDS women also have jobs outside the household. Many have gone on to be teachers, accountants, nurses, emt’t’s, and even web entrepreneurs.
Heeheee…the great thing about polygamy is that a polygamist woman can go to college and work outside the house while her sister wives share the load with respect to caring for the kids and other household chores.
I think a great idea would be for the tv show “Wife Swap” to include polygamists. A monogamist wife could trade places with a polygamist wife, just think of all the zany hijinx and hilarious situations that could be caught on camera.
There are lots of non-mormon polygamists in the US. John Stossel did a special on 20/20 some time ago that featured non-mormon plygs. We should be more tolerant of other people’s lifestyle choices.
Hopefully one day, the plyg and monig will be able to live together in harmony.
duane said this on June 7, 2009 at 11:33 PM
“duane, have you ever heard of that child porn scandal in mineola? What do you think about that?”
Yes i have, it is a bogus case. Not a shred of evidence, the alleged events that took place are beyond absurd…even more so than Brent Jeff’s claims. My supposition is that the kiddies may have been molested by the foster father as he was charged in California for perping a girl some years prior.
duane said this on June 7, 2009 at 11:38 PM
Duane, I’m just asking, “Why do you notice the speck in Stamp’s eye, but not consider the plank in Warren’s eye?”
I know there are some women who choose polygamy, just as there are women who choose to stay with child abusers, and women who choose to use drugs. They are exercising their free will, but it doesn’t make it a healthy or intelligent choice, and it certainly shouldn’t be binding on their sons and daughters.
(Just my opinion, of course, but I give myself a handicap by virtue of being a woman and having considered the ramifications in a way no man is likely to do.)
But for those who are raised into such a system, “choice” is less clear-cut. There is a range of personality from compliant to oppositional, and how susceptible a person is to brainwashing and group pressure has a lot to do with his or her inherent personality type. That is what I meant about Plygkid—he was resistant to abuse because he’s oppositional by nature.
Independent of that is the reaction a person has to the intellectual, emotional, or spiritual underpinnings of the cult.
So you have four possible extremes of response (and a million variations therein):
1. A passive person who believes wholeheartedly in what the cult teaches;
2. A passive person who hates what the cult teaches but can’t extricate herself;
3. An oppositional person who believes wholeheartedly in what the cult teaches;
4. An oppositional person who hates what the cult teaches.
The first and last are likely to find accommodation. The middle two are far more likely to be hurt. As will all those people whose personalities and beliefs don’t fall at the margins, but are in the middle somewhere.
Greetings from New York said this on June 7, 2009 at 11:42 PM
If anyone is interested in this idiotic case here is the link:
In the comments, the defense attorney posts his summary of what happened in that kangaroo court.
duane said this on June 7, 2009 at 11:43 PM
That business about how great polygamy is cause the LOVING sister wife is caring for your kids? Bunk.
You just cough up the same trash over and over.
Betty said this on June 7, 2009 at 11:44 PM
I’ve read about it already, duane and I’ve seen your login all over it in caps yelling about the club and who the owner is and stuff. You sure know a lot about it.
I’m not sure either way. Something sure stinks about it. The woman Margie does not strike me as being mentally healthy or nice.
Betty said this on June 7, 2009 at 11:46 PM
GFNY, as I’ve explained before, I don’t care about warren, I’m not here to defend Warren, don’t agree with much of what he did.
I’m very concerned with civil rights and how the FLDS people are being subject to incredible bigotry and prejudice.
If you bother to read articles about FLDS not at YFZ, namely in s.D. and Colorado where there is not a shred of evidence of any wrongdoing…the locals wanting to run them out of town soley for their religious creed, then maybe you will understand what I’m talking about.
duane said this on June 7, 2009 at 11:48 PM
duane wrote “Hopefully one day, the plyg and monig will be able to live together in harmony.”
Hopefully one day polygamy will cease to exist because women won’t settle for second place and kiss butt just to get acceptance.
Betty said this on June 7, 2009 at 11:49 PM
Duane, the definition of whether or not someone IS FLDS is whether or not they are obedient to the prophet. So saying you don’t support Warren, but you do support the FLDS is totally nonsensical.
There isn’t a shred of evidence of any wrong doing in those other places cause they haven’t been there long enough to have been caught.
Betty said this on June 7, 2009 at 11:51 PM
Flora loves the idea of a “Wife Swap”, as long as she can be the monog sent into the polygamous home. She also wants lots of kids to play with.
But she says, only if it is an equal swap, one polyg, for one monog for the week or whatever it is, she wants to make sure the rest of the concubines stay behind to be her indentured help.
Boots said this on June 7, 2009 at 11:51 PM
The hard part is going to be getting the polyg to go back home at the end of the week. LOL.
Betty said this on June 7, 2009 at 11:58 PM
Betty, I figurd you would assume they are guilty, I’m suprised. The defendents will probably win on appeal after spending years in prison.
I don’t remember makiny many posts.
I don’t know much more than you do about this club, I never heard of it before this story broke. But would inform you that if my wife and I walked into a so-called swinger’s club and 6 year olds were dancing on stage naked before an audience of 100 peeps, I would have called 911 pronto! Thus I dismiss it out of hand as this club advertised on the adult circuit and “normal” swingers who visited this club testified for the defense that they never saw such a thing, the owner of the club even testified for the defense, wasn’t even charged. It was just a case of ignorant townspeople on a witch hunt.
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 12:01 AM
If I chose tomorrow to be obediant to Warren, hung pictures of him on my wall…that doesn’t make me a criminal.
Yeah Boots, that would be fun but Flora would have to assume the role of whoever she was swapping with. I do like the idea of debat between a you and an FLDS wife, would pay money to see that.
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 12:07 AM
Sunset BLVD is full of crack whores and transvestite hookers.
Just because people join into a culture doesnt mean its good for them or their children.
BTW Hooking on Sunset is illegal so is Polygamy. We’ll probably never be rid of both.
But the child molesters? When caught? There is always a prison cell awaiting!
Stamp said this on June 8, 2009 at 12:12 AM
I’ve posted a photo taken by The Spectrum, of a little boy in the window of Willie Jessop’s house in Cedar City, Utah during LE raid.
It’s on the AAAP’s blog if anyone cares to peek into Willie’s windows.
Boots said this on June 8, 2009 at 12:16 AM
you keep bringing up “all those sites” of women looking for sister wives as proof that polygamy is self sustaining without coercion (indoctrination from childhood). I went looking for those sites and spent an hour. The number of sites is small and the number of those looking is smaller yet and of those a number are bisexual women. So drop that one off your evidence in support of polygamy list! Been there done that.
We had this discussion about two weeks ago over at Brooke’s blog and others agreed that there was not a groundswell of single women looking to be polygamous wives.
hellohellogoodbye said this on June 8, 2009 at 12:23 AM
Duane, you don’t get it. Being suspicious of people who choose to isolate themselves isn’t anywhere as horrid as Warren’s ravings.
If I were in Short Creek, I would be painfully aware that every single one of them believes that Warren is the mouthpiece of God and hence that he was telling the truth when he says that blacks are subhuman. People do nasty things to people they believe are subhuman.
So people look at them funny in Colorado—so what? People are naturally conscious of others who look or talk differently. There is a big leap from that to thinking they’re subhuman, as they clearly do about blacks. (Personally, I think the FLDS dress is primarily intended to maintain that wall—it allows them to feel persecuted and superior.)
As for the idea that you can be black and FLDS but just can’t hold priesthood, that’s actually a stinging insult since the priesthood is the path to salvation for both the man and his women.
What does it matter if those were Brigham Young’s ravings first? The one thing I agree with WSJ on is that it is the LDS who have changed, not the FLDS (a good thing for the Mormons).
Greetings from New York said this on June 8, 2009 at 12:24 AM
there is not a groundswell, I never said most women covet polygamy and I’m well aware that most would not want to be polygamists but there are many out there, numerically speaking who do desire polygamy. There are many bi-sexual women, many swingers, many tranvestite hookers, many males who had sex change operations and became lesbian women (WTF??), but yes; most people have more conventional tastes.
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 12:29 AM
GFNY, read the articles on Westcliffe colorado, it is more than just “looking at them funny”.
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 12:31 AM
Btw, “destroyed in the flesh” simply means you will be at a point where only blood atonement can save your eternal soul.
If you willingly submit to blood atonement by the priesthood, you can still become a god.
If it is performed on an unwilling victim, it saves their soul, but they can only become a slave to another god in the afterlife.
Boots said this on June 8, 2009 at 12:37 AM
Duane, I read all those same articles at the time, and discussed them with you. I said I wouldn’t have said the things they said, but that I understood the impulse that led them to it. I was skeptical about the whole idea of houses of hiding because it seemed so farfetched to me.
In the interim I have read Warren’s dictations and had access to someone who had the misfortune to be sent to one of Warren’s “refuges” for reeducation. So I am far less critical of the residents of Westcliffe for their attitude. I wouldn’t want the FLDS in my town, either.
Greetings from New York said this on June 8, 2009 at 12:41 AM
“Personally, I think the FLDS dress is primarily intended to maintain that wall—it allows them to feel persecuted and superior”
Perhaps, but the same goes with Amish, Pentecostal, Orthodox Jews, Mennonite….
What I found noteworthy was that according to an article about Westliffe on Rick Ross’s site. While everyone else was appalled that a bunch of strawberry canning FLDS elderly ladies moved into their neck of the woods, An Amish man was quoted something to the effect that he welcomed them and happy to be neighbors.
The amish dresses are very similiar to FLDS ‘cept they are blue and black. The local newspaper warned their readers not to confuse Amish and Mennonites with FLDS, I guess to make sure that hatred is directed toward the right ones. I emailed the newspaper and suggested that they publish color coded diagrams illustrating the differences between FLDS and Amish dress so locals don’t get ’em mixed up. Needless to say, I didn’t get reply.
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 12:42 AM
GFNY, houses of hiding could be the same thing as refuge. Reeducation at a “refuge” could mean many things that aren’t so diabolical as you imagine it must be.
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 12:45 AM
“Btw, “destroyed in the flesh” simply means you will be at a point where only blood atonement can save your eternal soul.
If you willingly submit to blood atonement by the priesthood, you can still become a god.
Boots said this on June 8, 2009 at 12:37 AM”
And my wife thought the Sci Fi Channel was weird! Can you imagine the movie?
“Anaconda VS Polygamist Gods on Planet X”
Stamp said this on June 8, 2009 at 12:45 AM
duane, you simply havent been reading your dictations, have you!?
Naughty boy! In the HOH’s, the bad bad wives must listen to cassettes of Warren 16 hours a day.
Maybe you snuck a tape and listened too long.. I wonder…..
Stamp said this on June 8, 2009 at 12:48 AM
Duane, I had a carpenter here once who saw my Orthodox neighbors in their black overcoats, fur hats and sidelocks, and said, “I didn’t realize you have Amish people here!”
I think the fundamental impulse in all groups with clothing restrictions is the same—to enforce a sense of “otherness”. I don’t object to it, but I think it’s ridiculous to complain that people look at you funny when you do it.
Greetings from New York said this on June 8, 2009 at 12:51 AM
Except for one thing—I have inside information about a house of hiding that you don’t have, Duane. And what happened was deeply traumatic and illegal.
Greetings from New York said this on June 8, 2009 at 12:55 AM
The most unbelievable part of the story is that it could have been a secret in such a small town. And little or no physical evidence.
The prosecutor in the county in which the club exists thinks it’s bogus.
See, I think there is a lot of physical evidence in the cases filed and not with the FLDS. I think several of them will never get out.
Betty said this on June 8, 2009 at 12:56 AM
“Reeducation at a refuge” … isn’t so what? Do YOU know anyone who’s been there done that?
A phrase I read recently: “Don’t come selling crazy here, we’re all stocked up.” (thanks, Betty)
GrannyToad said this on June 8, 2009 at 1:03 AM
Yeah, looks like the cultural practice of polygamy hasn’t worked out so well for some other women either.
“None of these misogynist ideologists mention the human catastrophe which befalls the female and children population in an Islamist city. In the religious city of Najaf, south of Baghdad 20% of the adult female population are abandoned wives with no income. They are second, third and fourth wives of men who had taken off for other women. Their husbands do not care to divorce them or to spend on their wives and their children. In the “holy” city of Najaf, masses of destitute women and children roam in the streets and may manage to live off the charity of religious institutions which had justified their abandonment and poverty in the first place.”
~Yanar Mohammed, president OWFI
Boots said this on June 8, 2009 at 1:59 AM
All over America women have children and jobs, and they don’t have to share a husband to accomplish that. Either the man helps (believe it or not there are good men out there!), they pay for child care, or they swap child care with a sister, grandma, a best friend or a neighbor. I was child care for my step daughter and I assure you we have never slept with the same man. The idea that the woman has to give up emotional, financial, social and sexual equality in order to have mother hood and a job is horse patootie thought up by a man. And I think it’s ugly to even suggest that that is a ‘positive’ of polygamy. It negates farm families, extended families and supportive networks of friends all over this nation.
“Oh, the cool thing is that you aren’t the only servant in the house so you get an afternoon off now and then.” “Oh, massa sure good to me!”
Betty said this on June 8, 2009 at 2:30 AM
I stole that from Jack Nicholson (or rather some poor unknown writer). But you are welcome.
Betty said this on June 8, 2009 at 2:31 AM
why are we even arguing with duane???? He has already made up his mind, he isn’t going to see truth or proof of anything put before him..
deputydog1 said this on June 8, 2009 at 2:46 AM
Boots, the issues you bring up in 3rd world countries is a function of poverty non polygamy. In such countries the GDP is very low, wages are low, not much economic oppty. as the nation in question is not industrialized and thus very few high paying jobs. Polygamy does not create poverty, the cause of poverty is low economic production and lack of capital to invest, corrupt government which siphons off any capital available, stifling regulations and a dearth of free markets.
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 3:43 AM
Here’s one for everyone to chew on.
In 2000, the US Census states that Hildale, Utah had a population of 1,895 people.
Yet in July of 2002, we can show documentation that Utah was providing public assistance to 3,388 Hildale, Utah recipients, at a cost of over 218k to the Utah tax payers, for that one month.
What will failing to prosecute polygamy in Texas do to your pocketbook in the future?
Some men in the FLDS have enough concubines and children to earn 36k of benefits monthly, for their respective “families”…and of course they do have a “lifestyle” to maintain and all…
Utah and Arizona taxpayers obviously don’t mind this, since they keep voting the same corrupt people into office, year after year.
Boots said this on June 8, 2009 at 3:47 AM
Yeah Duane, we all know how you feel about women with first hand experience of polygamy, and their views.
I’m sure Yanar just had a little too much wine or somethin’ before she went and blamed all those poor polygamist husbands for abandoning their concubines and children to the streets, like dogs.
If only the government of Iraq would send them all food stamps and welfare, their homes would still be happy and whole, like the ones up in Utah and Arizona.
Boots said this on June 8, 2009 at 3:53 AM
Is very unfortunate that there are so many people intolerant of other religions. What this country truly needs is more religious tolerance. Moreover, polygamy should be decriminalized.
Celia said this on June 8, 2009 at 3:55 AM
You want to come down here to Texas, decriminalize polygamy and take away my right to be my husband’s only living equal?
COME AND TAKE IT
Boots said this on June 8, 2009 at 3:58 AM
Boots, are you saying that if polygamy is legalized, your husband will take another wife and you won’t be able to do anything about it?
Fortunately for my wife, she won’t have that problem even if polygamy is legalized, and she knows it.
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:10 AM
If polygamy is legalized, that would make it legal for a women to have multiple husbands, Already there are some who have such a living arrangement. Gosh, I hope my wife doesn’t take another man if the government fails to protect my god given right to be exclusively hers.
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:13 AM
No, Duane, I am single and plan to stay that way for life.
But I will not leave a world behind for my daughters, grand daughters or great grand daughters, which includes even the slightest possibility of a legal life of slavery and subjection to men.
It’s bad enough, knowing it is already illegal but still condoned by government entities.
I won’t leave them a world where it is perfectly legal to do it, no way.
They are at least going to have the protection of the LAW.
Boots said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:17 AM
Boots, perhaps we should leave the choice of personal relationships to the people and let the government focus on other matters such as protecting our fair nation from foreign threats and securing our borders.
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:26 AM
Boots, on your travels throughout Texas, when you look out the window, drive throught the various towns and cities, see the parks and playgrounds, the people walking to and fro in the downtowns of the big cities, suburban neighborhoods, amuesment parks, go watch a movie, visit the Bob bullock museum in downtown Austin, see the imax…if polygamy is legalized, 20 years from now, other than the usual growth and new gadgets, things won’t look any different than what you see today. With that I wish you a good night.
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:44 AM
Let’s secure the safety of our own children, Duane.
I TRUST THE LAW IN TEXAS TO DO THAT.
See, unlike yourself there- I don’t see law enforcement as “The Boogieman”. I was raised to respect any officer in uniform, and above all others the TEXAS RANGER uniform.
I wasn’t told that law enforcement would ever hurt me. I was taught to trust them, and go to them if I ever need help. They are the GOOD GUYS.
Take a stroll through the cemetery of my adopted home town someday, in Center Point, TX. There are less than 700 residents, with one sacred trust. More Texas Rangers are buried in that little cemetery than in any other cemetery in Texas, 32. Many who fell to Indians, protecting Texas women and children.
The citizens of Center Point consider THAT a sacred trust.
I don’t see the TEXAS LAW as the boogieman, because the TEXAS LAW have always been my heroes.
I have sat on these boards watching you, and your kind, saying the most vile, and degrading things about the Texas Rangers, Duane.
Ya’ll have had the gual to call them NAZIS [may their names be erased] and Texas CPS, “Gestapo”.
Some of those CPS workers have been deeply emotionally scarred by the experience of handing the children back over to their parents, Duane. They had to physically push some of those kids across the room to their parents, Duane.
Some have quit. Some are still trying to cope with the emotions. They got thrown under the BUS, for SOMEBODY…and I would just love to know WHO…right here in my own state.
I’m even startin’ to like some Texas lawyers.
It is a brave new world after all.
You can legalize polygamy here in Texas, Duane, when you pry the constitution out of my cold dead hands.
Boots said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:48 AM
Per a disillusioned poster: “See, unlike yourself there- I don’t see law enforcement as “The Boogieman”. I was raised to respect any officer in uniform, and above all others the TEXAS RANGER uniform.”
Fact is, the “Texas Ranger uniform” has forever been stained by what happened to FLDS children due to LE blundering, incompetence, and bigotry.
Celia said this on June 8, 2009 at 5:07 AM
Fact is, Texas Rangers have been reduced to no better than state police of any other state. Nothing more than police of the state.
Celia said this on June 8, 2009 at 5:14 AM
I had something really bad happen to me, years ago. Since then I’ve had to wear a wig every day of my life.
Darlin’, you don’t want to get into a hair pulling contest with me over the Texas Rangers, cause you’re only gonna get one good yank out of the deal, and then you’ll be all mine.
You’ve listed three false accusations against them right there.
Boots said this on June 8, 2009 at 5:17 AM
If I tell you that if you don’t like the laws down here in Texas, or our lawmen, that you can pack you’re little duds and get out, or we will prosecute you, will something important to Texas be firebombed in the next 24 hours?
Boots said this on June 8, 2009 at 5:22 AM
Anyone else smell a dead fish in this boat?
Boots said this on June 8, 2009 at 6:28 AM
Boots wrote: “In 2000, the US Census states that Hildale, Utah had a population of 1,895 people. Yet in July of 2002, we can show documentation that Utah was providing public assistance to 3,388 Hildale, Utah recipients, at a cost of over 218k to the Utah tax payers, for that one month.”
I knew those census figures were screwy.
Duane, historically, polygamy does correspond to poverty, or to be more accurate, to great gaps between the wealthy and the poor. It’s never been associated with a successful democracy, only with oligarchies. And the irony is that the FLDS evolved into an oligarchy, so you can’t argue the impulse isn’t there.
For my peace of mind, can you knock saying stuff like “my wife pleasured by another man”? The blue-haired church lady in me can’t read that before my morning coffee.
Greetings from New York said this on June 8, 2009 at 11:39 AM
Boots: Could the DesNews article you gave the URL for mean that the people at New Era Mfg who provided Warren with the Red Caddy will finally be indicted? I think aiding and abeting a top 10 FBI list fugitive could be a starting point.
chemist said this on June 8, 2009 at 11:49 AM
Boots, just wanted to comment on the picture you have posted of when weewillie’s house was raided back when wsj was on the FBI Top 10 list.
That poor little boy looking out the window, the left side of his face looks like someone used it for a punching bag, and his left eye is almost totally swollen shut. You commented that no children were removed during this raid on weewillie’s house. They actually left that poor battered little boy there?
LadySadie said this on June 8, 2009 at 12:30 PM
I think the whole investigation into the Red Escalade and arrest of Warren Jeffs, with Isaac and Naomi Jeffs aboard, is long overdue. There sure has to be other ‘aiders and abettors’ whom actively participated in Warren’s flight and deserve arrests, trials and convictions. What the GPS navigation system shows, where all the keys taken into possession and the computer laptops must have revealed a major treasure trove of criminal activities. Senator Reid has publicly called for escalated and coordinated actions to stop this organized crime wave but too few arrests, to date. The sources of support to Warren’s flight, based in Las Vegas, would be an obvious and good starting point.
cajIM said this on June 8, 2009 at 1:08 PM
Boots, I don’t consider the police to be boogieman, not so much anti-police, they just enforce the laws that are written. My contempt with regard to the state is focused on legislators who pass bad laws, overzeoulous prosecutors and CPS when they go too far.
I’m not anti-cps, When they investigate, discover a mom strung out on crystal meth and take the kids into custody until the parents can prove they are fit…they do a good job in those situations.
Willie’s kid, I’ve gotten a few black eyes when a kid that didn’t involve getting punched in the face, my son got a black eye and banged up pretty good when he crashed on his bike, my niece got a black eye when she fell off her bed when jumping on it. It could have been anything.
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 1:30 PM
When your daddies name is “Willie the THUG” lol. Yeah, youve got an excuse for everything duane.
OBTW when did you realize they were actually marrying twelve year olds? When you saw the deep kissing wedding pics?
And now when we give you DNA, will you believe they consumated those marriages?
Do you believe Warren said the UEP and FLDS still there are rejects yet?
Need a link for $500?
Stamp said this on June 8, 2009 at 2:01 PM
no celia the texas rangers haven’t been forever tainted. they are still the most respected lawmen around bar none.
and even if they weren’t, no texan gives a d@mn what anyone thinks about them or their lawmen. you don’t live here so you aren’t entitled to an opinion about them is my way of thinking.
Anonymous said this on June 8, 2009 at 2:04 PM
shoot boots, i’ll help them pack!!!
Anonymous said this on June 8, 2009 at 2:05 PM
I think I have a right to an opinion about law enforcement in other states and hope that you all have an opinion about the CC/Hildale police department, even if you don’t live in Utah or Arizona.
nearthecreek said this on June 8, 2009 at 2:15 PM
please get it through your thick head that religious POLYGYNY is NOT socially liberal, swinging, bisexual, polyamory. It is one man acting as god over a herd of breeding women. BIG difference. About as sexy as watching paint dry.
Betty said this on June 8, 2009 at 2:18 PM
I don’t know why we still argue with duane, good question. Or celia. They have an agenda of their own and we arent’ going to change them – their minds are closed. Duane can’t understand why I would be suspect of the Mineola case and not of the defendants at YFZ, because he is prejudiced to believe that all sex is victimless and I am a religious prude. He doesn’t know and won’t hear that I was a hippie in the sexual revolution and have seen first hand what happens when you start breaking the ‘rules’. There are lots of really good answers to CSN’s “Why don’t we go on as three?” question. Playing sex games at parties on the weekend is a far cry from raising your children to believe that they have a rigid lifestyle ahead of them based on their gender. Trust me, my concern is much more practical than religious when it comes to sex offenses.
Betty said this on June 8, 2009 at 2:25 PM
duane wrote “The amish dresses are very similiar to FLDS ‘cept they are blue and black. ”
No they aren’t. I realize you live in Texas, but I actually drive through an Amish village now and then. No blue jeans, no snap button shirts, no expensive sun glasses. The women cover their hair. The men mostly have beards (is shaving forbidden?). The men may have long or longer hair, the FLDS are short haired. No fancy big cars, or SUV’s. They plow with horses, not with John Deers with air conditioning and sound systems. They drive little buggies.
Mennonites often wear store bought, Walmart clothes that are appropriate, like a long denim skirt and a long sleeve blouse on a woman. The women mostly wear the little linen bonnet.
How could being kept in isolation to be re-educated be anything but kidnapping? What in your twisted mind makes that reasonable? Voluntarily going to a weekend retreat is one thing.
Betty said this on June 8, 2009 at 2:41 PM
Has everyone seen the video “Polygamist Gansta Rap” on youtube.com?
While some of the words may be offensive to some people, I found it very interesting how the song writer was able to put together such a clever song. He or she seems to know a lot about WJ and this culture.
nearthecreek said this on June 8, 2009 at 2:54 PM
Uncanny how they nailed it! Yes a few offensive words, but I reckon that is OK if it helps people be shocked by wtf is goin on.
Its funny – but true -and that makes it scary, just like home on the mf prairie.
Stamp said this on June 8, 2009 at 3:15 PM
duane all the folks at NATIONAL BANANA, caste and crew wish you a ‘bIG iDIOT” Shout Out, Piece!
This is an unpaid for Public Announcement from Sisters and Brothers of the KINDRED SPIRITS.
cajIM said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:16 PM
To pick up from elsewhere, yep Barbara is barbaric and her son “Diddling Daniel” Jessop is also. Criminals, both.
Huesos said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:18 PM
The amish ladies I’ve met put their clothing together with straight pins. Wonderful plain people!
Mennonites down in Chihuahua, plain also but 20th century. Farming, dairy quality bar none. It’s the only beef you’ll eat in Mexico.
Huesos said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:25 PM
Yeah, Duane, it could have been anything. He could have accidentally run into a fist or a foot or when he was trying to fly through the air, hit the wall. Obviously whatever story they told was good enough for Utah law enforcement, otherwise that kid would have been removed from their home.
You know those FLDS are already documented to be “highly accident prone” anyway.
It’s just another “coincidence” that there was a boy with a bashed in face in Willie’s window.
Boots said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:26 PM
In Brents book, he tells about his “mother” Screaming at her sister wife Felica because Felica was mad at brents mother and took it out on Brent and Brent had bruises from Felica beating him.
And brent’s mother let her have it!!
Duane forgets, that theses “sister” wives get jealous and mean, and take it out on other sister wives children.
That little boy in that picture would have to more than walk into a door, or fall down to have the whole side of his face and eye black and swollen… Poor sweet thing, he looked about 3 yrs old.
Im going to be honest here,, It looked to me like an adult had slapped the crap out of the little boy!
deputydog1 said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:36 PM
I can’t find this picture of a boy through a window.
But I DID enjoy the letter to feminists and posted it on my own blog.
Betty said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:38 PM
Thanks, Betty, the link to photo on the AAAP’s blog is here: http://www.tripleap.blogspot.com/
Boots said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:41 PM
Wow. I like the polygamy rap. They’ve got it down.
Betty said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:42 PM
I cant find the pic, do you have a link, or is it in one of the sidebar links, which is it?
Stamp said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:44 PM
please get it through your thick head that religious POLYGYNY is NOT socially liberal, swinging, bisexual, polyamory. It is one man acting as god over a herd of breeding women. BIG difference. About as sexy as watching paint dry.
Betty said this on June 8, 2009 at 2:18 PM
You said this way better than I could. Duane keeps thinking it is about prudes who don’t like alternative lifestyles. I got lots of alternative life style family and friends. Swing all you want but that isn’t what religiously mandated raised from child hood brainwashed polygamy is about.
hellohellogoodbye said this on June 8, 2009 at 5:02 PM
I found the picture and enlarged it. I used to have doctors try to get me to call the police and report the bruises I got….in karate class. And I can imagine accidents that would make that kind of bruising….falling down stairs….but still. It’s kind of hard to bang up BOTH sides of your face falling out of bed, you know? That kid looks like someone whaled the snot out of him with their fists, to me, and if I had been LE, I’d have investigated that.
Betty said this on June 8, 2009 at 6:07 PM
Welcome to Utah. They want to teach us Texans about sensitivity to polygamy. It works like this: If polyg kids look abused, sound abused, or claim abuse, ignore them and send them back to their parents and prophet. That’s what they did to Flora, and her sister, Ruby.
Here’s yer sign.
Boots said this on June 8, 2009 at 6:23 PM
I was once that child in the window. People saw me and did nothing, even through school. How can they be so backward, cruel up that creek, or down south as they say, never reach out, never get between the child and the abuser, turn their backs on helpless children?
You Don't Know Me said this on June 8, 2009 at 6:53 PM
Because if people EVER find out the truth of the extent of the abuse of children within American polygamy, it will shut down their hopes of practicing it legally someday.
The mainstream L:DS church renounced polygamy to get their statehood. They have changed the Book of Mormon and other text many times over the last 150 years. But for some unknown reason, they just haven’t been given any new revelations about removing the parts of their sacred text that state implicitly, polygamy is necessary to get to the highest level of heaven and become a god with yer own planet, complete with concubines and even slaves.
Instead, they cling to a prophsey about how someday there will be a Mormon president of the U.S., who will make it all OKAY again.
Then we can all become happy concubines, serving our god husbands by perpetually giving birth…even in the afterlife. Maybe we’ll run into those 70 Muslim virgins while we’re at it.
Boots said this on June 8, 2009 at 7:04 PM
I don’t know, YDNM. I don’t know.
Betty said this on June 8, 2009 at 7:04 PM
Well, Boots, not to worry, I wasn’t going to vote for Romney anyway. And I don’t think a president by himself could bring that about.
Betty said this on June 8, 2009 at 7:06 PM
Well, I’ll just hope you’re right about that Betty.
In the meantime, we’ll just keep on blowing this dang whistle, as hard as we can, until somebody finally listens.
Boots said this on June 8, 2009 at 7:10 PM
In all honesty, I have to think many (if not most) of the constant din of anti-posts here are imagination gone wild … with all the alleged (assumed/imagined) abuses people generalize bout and heap on FLDS.
Celia said this on June 8, 2009 at 7:10 PM
It’s a shame all the muck (i.e. filthy ideas) some people seem to endlessly dream up regarding FLDS families.
Celia said this on June 8, 2009 at 7:14 PM
That’s right Celia,
Pay no attention to the boy in Willie Jessop’s window. Move along folks, nothing to see here..it’s all just another interesting coincidence.
Boots said this on June 8, 2009 at 7:15 PM
Dream up? Celia honey, do ya see all them documents up there??
Get a grip missy!
deputydog1 said this on June 8, 2009 at 7:15 PM
Better yet Celia, get some counseling!
deputydog1 said this on June 8, 2009 at 7:17 PM
I’ve made my point about alt. lifestylers and polygamy countless times. To sum up: “What is good for the swinging goose is good for the polygamist gander”.
Boots, You drew a little attention from some some well spoken and good looking “slightly less evil” Cent. Park high school plyg kids. They don’t look too “inbred” to me.
To quote Ali Knudson age 19:
“In Centennial Park, we defend choice. I know that at the end of each day, I am the only one who can make my life choices for me. I believe that citizens of The United States have the right to live their definition of happiness and not suffer a penalty for being “un-mainstream.” The only person, who knows what lifestyle is best for them, is that person, not their government. I believe in a country that is tolerant and accepting of every citizens’ personal choice and the government has no place in consenting adult’s bedrooms. Period.”
Ahh…If only it were that simple.
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 7:19 PM
Duane, there is just as much abuse of children in Centenial Park as there is in Colorado City, or any other polygamous group.
I’ve never liked, or used the word “brainwashed” much. Brainwashing is when you already have a set thought process and someone inteferes with it, “washing away” what you once knew to be true about yourself or your background.
These folks are programed from birth to accept their “fate”, indoctrinated, raised, whatever you want to call it.
You on the other hand…
Boots said this on June 8, 2009 at 7:24 PM
“not mainstream” /= “not legal”
Betty said this on June 8, 2009 at 7:30 PM
Yep, they’ve been bred and raised exclusively for the purpose of fulfilling their mission to BREAK THE U.S. LAW.
Boots said this on June 8, 2009 at 7:40 PM
duane, freedoms are never free, unless your willing to follow the laws of this country. Without law, you have Chaos. Laws are meant not only to enforce but to protect.
Polygamy is against the law. Now if polygamists want the law changed, instead of using “talk” they should be confronting the supreme court of this United States. Just as the gays have done.
Of course it hasn’t gotten the gays any further than it would polygamists, and gay marriage is much less hazardous than polygamist marriages.
deputydog1 said this on June 8, 2009 at 7:44 PM
It sucks that in the town I live in you cannot smoke anywhere in public or private businesses… You have to be outside at least 20ft away from the building itself…. Now, I could confront the code in my city, but by doing that, I could go to jail… Its much easier for me to follow the law, which I do. I respect the laws of my city, state.
deputydog1 said this on June 8, 2009 at 7:47 PM
Yeah Boots, I’ve been raised and indoctrinated i.e. “brainwashed” if you will, to be tolerant of others lifestyle choices.
They got to me a long time ago. I don’t think “deprogramming” will work on me, too old.
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 7:48 PM
duane, many of the companies owned by Flds have been fined, for not following the codes of the city or state they are in. They do NOT respect any law.
deputydog1 said this on June 8, 2009 at 7:49 PM
duane, I was never raised to tolerate lawlessness! In your face lawlessness. To bad you were never taught respect for the law.
deputydog1 said this on June 8, 2009 at 7:50 PM
I don’t consider Mormon polygamists to be criminals by definition
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 7:59 PM
“Yeah Boots, I’ve been raised and indoctrinated i.e. “brainwashed” if you will, to be tolerant of others lifestyle choices.”
So if some old gay guys lifestyle is to lure and bugger your son, that cool with you then?
Sounds like your all for it!
Stamp said this on June 8, 2009 at 8:00 PM
Can anyone tell me … is this site not run/staffed/administered by the KS? Seems sort of obvious.
Celia said this on June 8, 2009 at 8:15 PM
No stamp, but what an old gay guy does with other old gay guys is his business.
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 8:16 PM
deputydawg, companies get fined all the time for code violations. YOu can go to any job site and find plenty. The other day I had to go to one of our warehouses and do some cabling, I warned them that an exposed high voltage electrical cord they have running across a foot traffic area is a safety hazard…hope they correct it.
So many FLDS companies have been fined…bad pliggys bad.
I hope they get the issues resolved.
Maybe I should switch sides and just sit here and trash talk polgyamists all day long…sounds like fun.
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 8:35 PM
Right duane. However the FLDS arent old gay guys hanging with other old gay guys.
They go for the little girls. Its wrong, its illegal, and they are going to prison.
Where they can be old gay guys hanging with other old gay guys,
funny how that works huh?
Stamp said this on June 8, 2009 at 8:35 PM
There are KS posting here as well as other places. Its not owned or operated by the KS.
But I suppose if you follow the rules better than you do on the trib you will actually have a chance to get a point across.
From what I’ve read “DEBATER” style trolls arent entertained here tho.
Stamp said this on June 8, 2009 at 8:38 PM
Ok stamp whatever, there are thousands of others who aren’t under indictment.
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 8:39 PM
BTW duane, I dont see your problem with your son getting party favors over at the old neighbors house.
Some alcohol, a little pot or coke, and some screwing around, seems to be just the ticket for ya, why not your son? He might decide to pick up the habits. And not tell you.
Stamp said this on June 8, 2009 at 8:41 PM
Stamp, I don’t smoke pot, do coke or “screw around”, did try it in hs and college but outgrew it, no I haven’t cheated on my wife either-15 years of marriage. I’m sorry but you got the wrong idea about me.
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 8:46 PM
“Ok stamp whatever, there are thousands of others who aren’t under indictment.
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 8:39 PM”
Not in Texas there arent.
Utah and AZ AG’s have waived the white flag. They are only going for the slam dunks. In the meantime, Warrens rejects get away with all kinds of things.
Just putting Warren through 4 (FOUR) count em FED and State agency prosecutions has given them an armful.
The FLDS might pay attention and follow the straight and narrow going forward, otherwise there just might be a never ending march to prison for the various offenders.
Stamp said this on June 8, 2009 at 8:47 PM
So you were a user in HS etc etc, you dont expect your son to use too? And especially if some gay predator offers him some goodies, you always being a proponent of swinging and all, I see him taking the bait.
Yeah some 45 yr old guy offering your son a good time, it happens.
Fortunately there isnt a sex commune cult that promotes this, although I read there is gay prostitution in the FLDS.
Ask Seth. Its on the record.
Stamp said this on June 8, 2009 at 3:58 PM
Celia if Kindred Spirits operated this blog do you think they would, being the avowed “BIGOTS” that you have professed them to be, allow you to post and tolerate your thoughts and opinion?
cajIM said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:02 PM
“I hate everyone who is FLDS, they suck!
evil universe duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 8:43 PM”
Hmmmmm duane may or may not live in an evil universe, but he aint FLDS.
As far as the FLDS, I know a few who could well earn that sentiment. Most are innocent victims though. Beware your overspray.
Stamp said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:09 PM
But the KS do love this site, it is very empowering to be able to read the actual documents and form your OWN opinion. Instead of just regurgitating someone else opinion.
LadySadie said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:10 PM
Maybe so, since he makes the FLDS look bad? LOLOLOLOL
Stamp said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:10 PM
Well that’s something you should be proud duane… But if you could legally, would ya??
deputydog1 said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:11 PM
I been married 40yrs and never ever wanted to cheat on my wife.
Never wanted or needed more than ONE.
deputydog1 said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:12 PM
I’m not a proponet of swinging but each to his own. Yes I know something about it and like to bring it up when making comparisons with some aspects of polygamy. BTW, occasionally swingers clubs do get raided as a result of busybodies. The one in Montreal appealed their case to Canada’s SC and won, that case will probably be used in Blackmores and Oler’s defense.
see this article, thought I don’t agree with the general premise at all, but some good points are made:
BTW, my son graduated yesterday, he has tried pot-didn’t catch him, he came out and told me. Says he stopped cuz it made him lazy.
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:13 PM
beins Im an old dog,, I like seeing proof of alligations, and this site has plenty of that.
deputydog1 said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:13 PM
What gives you THAT idea? It seems that if the KS were to own and operate a BLOG they would NAME it after themselves!
Or perhaps they are trying to confuse you – is it easy to do that?
FLDS TEXAS said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:16 PM
“Well that’s something you should be proud duane… But if you could legally, would ya??
Huh? be a polygamist? No. Tolerate is not the same as Promote.
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:20 PM
Anonymous said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:25 PM
Evil universe duane don’t espouse hatred for the whole FLDS Church, hate the sin not the sinner. Brotherly understanding and stalwart temperament is needed to lead these fallen away from sin. They will know we are Christians by our actions more than these words, prosecute don’t persecute. These were born into a sinful place, not of their own choosing, held in darkness where His light needs to shine.
cajIM said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:26 PM
Well said. God hates the sin and not the sinner. Plus, a high percentage of the members are young women and children – hardly culpable and mostly innocent victims.
When Jonestown and Branch Davidian disasters happened there was national mourning for such innocents. Not so much for Jim and David though.
Stamp said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:35 PM
KS = Kindred Spirits – a group of internationally located yet like minded people who support FLDS and assorted Fundie victims and work to unveil ongoing crimes against such.
Their work has helped some escape, and some perpetrators, face justice.
Stamp said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:39 PM
Miss Sadie I agree, it’s good to read documents.
GrannyToad said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:52 PM
KS is an acronym meaning Kindred Spirits those spiritually coalesced around scriptural teachings in direct and adamant opposition of most FLDS Church tenets. Persons with an religious adamancy expressed against teachings which would endorse women and children as chattel to a Priesthood, espouse that black people are accurst and in Satan’s dominions, allow ‘celestial’ marriages (polygyny) of minors, endorse committing felonies as righteousness and strict adherence to ‘One Man Rule’ as divinely revealed. Some Kindred Spirits don’t believe in any Higher Power, per se, but rather stand in favor of Law & Order as opposed to nihilism and unelected practice of Theocracy within these United States of America.
cajIM said this on June 8, 2009 at 4:53 PM
Oh, I gotcha figured out, ya troll! You forgot to delete your name when you typed in “Evil Universe” so its “Evil Universe duane”
Stamp said this on June 8, 2009 at 5:00 PM
Send it in a letter duane!
Lick my Stamp said this on June 8, 2009 at 5:01 PM
duane….knock,knock,knock…….hello,hello……duane…….Clink,clink,clink…..You in there?
cajIM said this on June 8, 2009 at 6:26 PM
Duane, congrats on your son’s graduation. It’s a great moment in parenthood.
I think your constant comparisons to ‘swinging’ make our argument for us. Swinging isn’t about deeply held beliefs or constitutionally-protected speech; it’s about self-indulgence.
Greetings from New York said this on June 8, 2009 at 6:28 PM
TBM has a great alternative theory about Rozita Swinton’s phone calls, here:
Greetings from New York said this on June 8, 2009 at 6:45 PM
Hugh Ego gets Pwned on the board too, as a bonus!
Stamp said this on June 8, 2009 at 7:27 PM
gfny, the point about swinging is not whether it is self indulgence or deeply held belief, but that such activity is private and the state has no business being in people’s bedrooms.
BTW, I knew little about the alt lifestyle scene till about 6 years ago when some friends of ours were featured on 20/20 being interviewed by John Stossel who was doing a feature it. We asked a bunch of questions, did some research, etc. Found out women like it as much as men if not more so and many husbands like to watch them with others (not me)…they aren’t “forced” by licentious males.
My brother dated a stripper years ago, got to know some…found out most strippers like being strippers-love the male attention…they aren’t “forced”.
Saw a news show about pornography, found out when producers put ads out for women, they show up in droves for auditions…not “forced”
Sure you may find a few examples of women forced, but the vast majority not so.
Same goes with polygamy.
With that, here is a blog post by a woman who left the FLDS
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 8:18 PM
duane reading how you think to me always has the speed bumps that you either like ignoring or crash over them. If you had conversations with strippers and you only found females who were into to the hedonism, how believable is that? Alot of the women who dance on stages have economic issues, are trying to finance a future or having been trained in formal/professional dance find it is something they have skills at until the Broadway show or Ballet company offers a position. The money is tough to match without doing things far more dangerous or criminal to equal in $$$ reward. There’s no future in it and alot of the women get trapped, raped, mistreated, meet a very bad element of men or move on and never choose to return. If you really spoke to them you edited out many additional aspects and tried to float mostly garbage on your barge. You truly lack insight and any mature empathy for the opposite gender no matter how much you try to hide it you have a warped perspective. Stossel show was to get ratings but it isn’t mainstream, it’s kinky backwater. You don’t assume the role of a protector or defender. protection to you is a condom and defense is perfuming your hedonist mindset. So many missing pieces to your thinking and it appears you don’t have many pieces left over, either.
cajIM said this on June 8, 2009 at 8:43 PM
Eggsactly. duane must think crack whores preplanned their destinies at Sorority parties.
Stamp said this on June 8, 2009 at 9:36 PM
Thanks, cajim, that was a lot nicer than I would have been.
Betty said this on June 8, 2009 at 9:51 PM
CAJim said, re: duane: “You truly lack insight and any mature empathy for the opposite gender no matter how much you try to hide it you have a warped perspective.”
I’ve been trying to put those words together myself ….but you did it so much better. thanks.
p.s. to duane: I’m with GFNY, the reference to other men pleasuring your wife while you look on exposes you. ewwww, just got a visual….must. leave. now. wash.off.
TexasMom said this on June 8, 2009 at 11:05 PM
Many strippers save their money and invest in property or a business when they “retire”. Many porn performers have bachelor’s and masters degrees. You certaintly don’t agree with their lifestyle, yes it is not high class, but must you assume that they all are “desperate” and somehow “forced” since these occupations don’t conform to your moral code and low in social status.
I don’t use condoms, have no need to. Since you are wrong about that, how many other issues have you been wrong about?
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 11:09 PM
Texasmon, wash off? Hope it wasn’t too messy.
Ahh its so easy to set you guys off into wild fantasyland!
If you didn’t have such excitable minds and lurid imaginations, maybe you would be able to think straight and see the big picture without the sexual imagery that seems to so fill you minds.
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 11:39 PM
In his post duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 8:18 PM
He cites situations where free-thinking adults are living a chosen alternative lifestyle.
The FLDS followers are not allowed or permitted to exercise any types of personal freedoms and they are not living a chosen alternative lifestyle.
This is the BIG difference here between “swinging” and “polygamy” a la the FLDS.
One is a real freedom of choice; the other is fear of eternal damnation and total loss of salvation.
NOT THE SAME THING AT ALL.
Anonymous said this on June 8, 2009 at 11:45 PM
Anon, sex is not a big part of the FLDS lifestyle, they are very conservative about it and it seems it is only necessary for procreation. Other aspects of their life are much more important to them than s-e-x. Which it seems, everyone here seems to be obsessed with, just thought I’d feed that desire a bit. At least until the photos get posted again, then you guys can go back to sharing and linking to your favorite ones, analyzing the tounging action…how deep?? et al…then rationalize it by expressing your “outrage”.
duane said this on June 8, 2009 at 11:58 PM
Someone earlier mentioned Centennial Park. I know for a fact that young girls have to endure church-arranged marriages and they are highly encouraged to comply. Cent. Park may wait until the girls are of legal age (18) but there is still a lot of pressure to get married AS SOON AS THEY TURN 18 and they also practice arranged (placement) marriages.
I knew of a Centennial Park woman who had had enough of the abuses of polygamy and wanted out of her marriage. She had young children and wanted them to leave the sect with her. The sister-wives started in on these children and told them that if they left the sect with their mother, that they were going straight to hell.
So how many of those children chose to leave with their mother????? The children were threatened with (afraid of) losing their “eternal salvation” if they left the group (by going with their mom).
Yep, that a community of free choice and no coercion. NOT.
Centennial Park is a cult. Not as bad of a cult as the FLDS, but they are only a few years behind the FLDS.
Anonymous said this on June 9, 2009 at 12:02 AM
Duane you are SO CLUELESS about the FLDS
I haven’t yet figured out if you are an FLDS wantabe/apologist or an FLDS plant here to do damage control.
But I can assure you that you are totally clueless about how truly evil Warren Jeffs and many of the FLDS members are.
Anonymous said this on June 9, 2009 at 12:09 AM
LMAO yall have alot to say about me. Your all a degree of right and a degree of wrong. I left cause no one truly listened to me. Everyone on that forum tried to tell me what I really think. I have internet access at home. Always have. I rode KTM 250 well into 17 years old. My life is better then 99.9% of the human population. I dont need to get a grip on anything (i have the bull by the horns). Pliggy was right. Everyone i talk to about my life takes everything i say out of context. Thats why i quit posting. Theres not 1 person there that didnt just kinda peck at what they wanted to hear.
you will most likely pick this apart and take from it whatever you want so have at it 😛
plygkid said this on June 9, 2009 at 1:37 AM
Good to learn that you are well and that life is going good for you. Yes, it was evident that people were taking your comments out of context to prove their viewpoints. I apologize if I was guilty of that. Best wishes going forward in life.
chemist said this on June 9, 2009 at 4:23 AM
Stamp said this on June 9, 2009 at 10:10 AM
Duane said (June 8, 2009 at 11:58 PM):
Sex is not a big part of the FLDS lifestyle, they are very conservative about it and it seems it is only necessary for procreation. Other aspects of their life are much more important to them than s-e-x. Which it seems, everyone here seems to be obsessed with…
REPLY: Actually, a big part of sex is just…the big part, which granted is a very big problem indeed, if there is any doggy action at all, even for the purpose of conception. It is the nature of dogs and the animal kingdom to breed. That is the animal nature, but human nature to above that, from the heart, not the groin (to love). Higher still, it is divine nature to Be, as God says of Himself: “I Am”.
“Whoso looketh upon a woman (a wife, or any woman) in lust, is an adulterer”, saith the Lord (Matt.5:28). Also, “Whoso toucheth the fruit in the midst of the ‘garden’ (midway between the head and the feet), in that very day they shall surely die” (Gen.2:17, 3;3).
Anonymous said this on June 15, 2009 at 12:48 PM
Oops, typo. How do you edit?
“but human nature IS above that, from the heart.
You see, to sew to the flesh is immediate death to the spirit and the salvation of its blessings, even as Adam died that very day, according to His time, which is 1,000 years to a day, see. He died at 930. So that very day He died, according to Jehovah’s decree.
Anonymous said this on June 15, 2009 at 12:54 PM
I find myself astonished when someone of another faith (i.e. Anonymous, obviously not FLDS) tries to liken FLDS to animals (i.e.”It is the nature of dogs and the animal kingdom to breed.”) And then goes on to quote the bible in his/her own view to make their “point”; clearly with a very strong self serving bias. Smacks of the same bigoted mindset that was clearly in place as 450 FLDS children were taken away from YFZ ranch on Baptist buses last April.
Celia said this on June 16, 2009 at 1:14 PM
Go ahead and be astonished when we think abusers responsible for a total of 19 identifiable bone breaks in a 5 year old boy’s body were found.
We could have sent un-air conditioned buses from INS or the Texas Prison system to pick up those kids, be obviously we sort of like to treat kids better than the FLDS.
I can see how you might resent that kindness Celia, just like the parents of an FLDS boy limping around on a homemade wooden leg didn’t want him to have the gift of a 30K custom prosthetic leg, because it was a gift from the mean cruel Texas people.
Boots said this on June 16, 2009 at 1:24 PM
So what is your “point” Boots? Are you trying to negatively characterize ALL FLDS families based on the few “cherry picked” examples that you make? I would not doubt that there are stereotypes that could be applied to you and yours as well; or anyone of us for that matter.
Celia said this on June 16, 2009 at 6:11 PM
No, Celia, I’m actually negatively characterizing the crime of polygamy, wordwide.
Y’know, like I would with slavery, too.
I can cherry pick examples of abuse from the historical record of slavery, worldwide. I can cherry pick examples of no physical abuse within slavery, worldwide, too.
I’m still against legalized or decriminalized slavery and polygamy, worldwide.
That’s how the cows eat the cabbage.
Boots said this on June 16, 2009 at 6:28 PM
I don’t know why but I can’t quit laughing about this:
Fiduciary sells cows from farm pledged in settlement deal
The heifers are gone — and that has put a snag in a key element of a proposal aimed at settling disputes involving a property trust once controlled by a polygamous sect.
The Utah Attorney General’s Office and attorneys for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints learned Monday via a footnote in a court filing that the fiduciary managing the trust had sold young cows at Harker Farm.
The footnote, in a document filed by attorney Jeff Shields on behalf of Bruce R. Wisan, noted that the trust’s cash crunch had been eased “slightly” by the sale, which an FLDS attorney said he was told generated $360,000.
FLDS TEXAS said this on June 16, 2009 at 10:13 PM
Oops …. y’all need to head over to Open Discussion 4 please
FLDS TEXAS said this on June 16, 2009 at 10:15 PM
No joke, FLDS TEXAS, I thought I was going to wet myself I laughed so hard.
The heifers are gone – and that has put a snag…
Boots said this on June 16, 2009 at 10:17 PM
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