UEP Proposal

Pages from UEP Proposal May 21-3

This was sent anonymously.   It is represented to be the last proposal in the UEP settlement talks, apparently a working draft of the Shurtleff/Willie deal.    There is no way for us to vouch for its authenticity, but it would take someone with some legal knowledge and a lot of time to have come up with this as a gag.   Take it for what it’s worth.    We will comment on its content after we’ve reviewed it.

It has been reported that the deal is not yet acceptable to Wisan and the Arizona AG.   It has also been reported that talks resume tomorrow for a final attempt to reach an agreement.   None of the players who have commented in the media seem optimistic that a settlement will be reached.

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on May 21, 2009.

80 Responses to “UEP Proposal”

  1. hi, i can’t get to open or download without being fuzzy

  2. I bet it doesnt fly. The FLDS is noted in there with its eye on 500 households.

    Why on Gods green earth does a Church need to own someones home?

    Oh – right – to control them and make them SUFFER!

  3. If this is allowed we will have the same problem.

    Little girls getting raped, but they wont testify because dad and mommies will be evicted if they testify.

    Dont give the FLDS that control!

  4. I’m wary of anonymously-sent documents, but if this is the FLDS’ best effort at negotiation, they’re nuts.

    I don’t need to read past section 6.02 to realize the authors are delusional. There is no way the parties can insist that third-party litigation be dismissed. (Note to Elissa Wall: you go, girl!)

    Who the heck is Newco that they are entitled to any benefits from the UEP? They aren’t party to this negotiation. For that matter, who the heck is Wee Willie Jessop that he is going to be in charge of trust assets for the FLDS?

    And why is the building of a temple even mentioned in this document? The FLDS can build a temple anywhere they want—on their own land.

    How can the negotiators possibly curtail non-FLDS residents’ right to redress in a court of law? (Any resident would be crazy to accept the housing board’s decrees as final and binding, but I suppose that only non-FLDS residents will have the brains to realize that.)

  5. Stamp, you’ve hit the nail right on the head. Ownership of someone’s home is ownership of them. Of course that’s been Warren’s claim all along…your home belongs to the prophet, your business belongs to the prophet, your concubines belong to the prophet, your children belong to the prophet, everything you have belongs to the prophet.

    I was under the impression slavery was illegal in this country until I visited Utah and Arizona. Now I know better. As long as you call it a religion, you can enslave people here.

  6. I hope everyone noticed, it says,FLDS (and a new company”NewCo”)

  7. ok I went to a different computer why that should matter? but none of it makes any sense to me….I thought that there were other parties in the litigation not mentioned …like centeniel group done out of the trust in the late 80s or 90s, the two different canadian groups, Elissa Walls, and all the apostates? Where do they fit in?
    And anyway given all of the hoo rah how could anybody verify that this actually speaks to the community?
    Couldn’t I walze in and claim to be the new prophet speaking for everybody?

  8. HHG, I was thinking the same thing. I will be your faithful amanuensis, and take down your dictation (but remember, I’m straight). As Stamp might say, “Pwned by a black woman, twice!”

  9. GFNY the reference to NewCo is a fill-in entity that is not yet formed successor trust to UEPTrust therefore the document uses “NewCo” until said entity is nominated/formed. Third party litigations must have been contacted or are participating in the negotiations? Willie R Jessop along with 10 other men are listed as representing the FLDS Church and the presiding Bishop of the FLDS Church. Hmmmm…..they seem to be one person shy of 12 Apostolic leaders, somebody must have passed a resolution nominating these 11 men or resigned his position, in order, for this negotiation to be legally binding. I wonder if all eleven later resign as,”Representative Individual(s)” who would be in charge then, I trust the formation of these men’s authority has been checked out. You have to remember that ‘One Man Rule’ is in effect and I wouldn’t want a deal struck with a pliable set of negotiators who later turn into a singular tyrant.

  10. Berry Knoll , was supposedly the place the temple was “supposed” to have been built in the first place. But, no body paid any attention till the Fidicuary was going to put it up for sale.
    By the way,,, Willie Jessop owned Aspen Management Investments Inc. And the officers were Samuel Allred, Leroy Jeffs. Leroy went to Federal prison because he wouldn’t give any information, he kept the books for the UEPtrust till it was taken over. Willie had connections with Advantum Inc, who was buying parts of Apple Valley. HE was the deal maker.

    By the way, I thought Willie told the Legislative Committee, he just represented himself??? But there is HIS name on the document with all the other FLDS trustees.

  11. All the dates of possession and residency, as worded, leave to much room for misheif.

    The way I read it, those people who left for YFZ still have rights, but then the way it reads, those rights look to be given to the FLDS.

    And who might NewCo be? Holy Order Of Texas aka HOOT.

    Or some other name, same thing!

  12. I thought Truman Barlow was kicked out?

  13. Yes, Truman Barlow WAS kicked out in January 2004 with the other powerful Barlow men (and some ancillary – ie disposable – other men)

    Is this Truman L. Barlow named in this UEP “settlement and plan of distribution” the same Truman Barlow, or is a different one – like maybe his son???

    It really gets confusing because the FLDS can’t seem to come up with unique names for people. Instead its Billy Bob, Billie Bob and Billy Bobb.

  14. No joke. Out of over 400 children rescued from the YFZ, there were less than 20 last names between them.

  15. I have read Stamp’s mention of “PWNED” many times. I have to ask because I still don’t get it – what does “PWNED” mean? Sorry, but I have tried to figure it out, but just can’t seem to figure out what this is trying to say.

    Thanks

  16. Isn’t it interesting that Willie’s name is FIRST on the list of this proposed UEP settlement document! What does this mean? Is the fat, dumb and goofy Williemeister in line to be the next FLDS profit?

  17. CA Jim, thanks for explaining to me about Newco. It sure sounded like another of those shell corporations Merril and Rulon were so fond of.

  18. Willie Jessop, , Dan Johnson, Merlin Jessop, Wendell Neilson, Merril Jessop, Lyle Jeffs, Warren S. Jeffs, Truman I. Barlow, Leroy S. Jeffs, James K. Zitting, William E. Timpson (collectively referred to as the “Representative Individuals”)….

    p. 2 I. The Representative Individuals represent and warrant as follows:

    (i) they have the authority to act on behalf of the FLDS Church and its members.

    Ok, right out of the gate I have a big problem with this. Why would these individuals have any standing to participate in negotiations or speak for anyone or be granted any rights or benefits by the trust over and above the rights of each and all the beneficiaries? And what difference does it make whether they have authority to act on behalf of the FLDS Church — the FLDS Church is not a party to the trust, it is not the predecessor to the trust, it is not a beneficiary and it has no standing or rights with respect to trust property or distributions. That is just crazy that this is even being talked about … and I havent gotten past page 2.

  19. So … everytihing goes to the “FLDS Church” except 80 acres in the Gap, and that little slice of land goes to the former members or other claimants that the “FLDS Church” have tried to run out of the twin cities forever.

    Seriously, has Shurtleff lost his last marble?

    My prediction: there will be no agreement. Wisan and his board will never agree to this, the Arizona AG will never agree to this, and the Judge will never approve it. What a complete waste of time it was to give Willie any legitimacy or include him in something that most of knew he would never approach in good faith.

    I’d like to see that document where every member of the “FLDS Church” voted and gave the “Representative Individuals” the authority to act on their behalf. And what exactly constitutes the “FLDS Church” anyway? Is it the list of people Warren says are in? Is there some membership card that people sign and turn in …. What if I say I’m a member of the FLDS Church, do I get a deed too that I have to waive my interest in in favor of a “third party or entity”?

  20. FLDS TEXAS

    All great questions, seems they are still trying to run it by the seat of their pants. Did DEBATER help them draft this?

    Funny footnote – Debater floated the idea to them to make ShortCreek a “Utah Heritage Site”

    So the next thing you know the FLDS have a new Trust at YFZ “Texas Heritage”….

    But they missed Debaters point. A “Heritage Designation” is supposed to bring with it tons of state and federal grants.

    Just calling yourself “Heritage” wont do it. SORRY!

    PWNED again!

    (Perfectly Owned, Owned to the nth degree)

  21. This proposal seems to be a pile of male bovine excretment, or in other letters, BS. Similar to the HOOT document for YFZ, poorly written and apparently writtens sans lawyers and legal review.
    No good if the documents are to be submitted to courts and are to have legal standing.

  22. One wonders when this was floated – is this brand new or what? So afte a month of negotiation, this POS is the best they can do?

    Its written to give the FLDS everything and exclude certain benies.

    How not ingenous.

  23. flds texas,
    that was my point, about who has standing. Given any lack of documentation I could just as easily waltz in and say I am the FLDS representative.

  24. HHG

    Where you able to click and read the proposal? Of course there isnt any legal stantding of the representatives, howver the court could require them to as a condition of acceptance..

    What is sad that as stewards of the trust and their past reckless disregard for not only IT but the PEOPLE we have this issue before us.

    The proposal simply doesnt articulate good solutions. Paying off Wisan and firing him isnt the solution to all their problems.

    They need organized resposnible decision making, it just isnt seem possible as written.

  25. 2.06.5 note iv: The FLDS looks to get 500 homes and draws a little fairy tale on how thats gonna work.

  26. I see no way in heck a court could approve this document. It is vaugue, has poorly defined terms and puts the flds in control of almost everything.

  27. Shurtleff wants to be a Senator and this is going to define him.

    If he folds it will make him look weak. If he stays strong the litigation will still be going come election time.

    At least the latter will show he can actually take on an assigned task instead of giving up at an easy opportunity.

    And we are talking about the enslavement of thousands of Utahns / Arizonans here.

    Quite curious.

  28. Thats my problem to Stamp!! Shurtleff wants this OFF his back, he is running for the BIG TIME senate this year!! He Sho don’t want this monkey on his back…..
    So, I don’t have a clue how this is going to turn out!

  29. No deal. Meeting’s over and an agreement could not be reached.

    No surprise there.

  30. Does anyone have a detailed list as to the actual property they are talking about concerning the UEP?

    Such as how many homes currently occupied? How many empty homes? How many homes occupied by those not in the FLDS? How many businesses? How many farms? Would this include the business NewEra and the many others that are housed under Willie? The Barlows? Jessops? Harkers? Allreds?

    One of the many excuses that Shurtleff has come up with is that they don’t have the money nor the resources to go after those practicing Polygamy. And yet they came up with I think 700 hundred thousand for a group to better understand those practicing Polygamy.

    They have set up a committee and sub committees to help those in Polygamy. I can’t remember if this was part of that program or not. But how many of those cases led to the arrests and convictions of “law-breakers”? Such as Domestic violence, child neglect, collection of child support etc?

    Does anyone have any answers?

  31. Walton

    Good Q – I havent seen a spreadsheet detaiing all properties. It is a lot though. I think that the main sticking point is FLDS ownership of the UEP and the UEP feels it should be given straight to the bene class who can then sign over deeds.

    The UEP proposal seemed to want the FLDS to pay the fee and take title straight away. Never giving the “faithful” the chance to express their faith huh?

    I feel it MUST go to the bene class first. The “FLDS” as it is sometimes known is a train wreck – if I had my family in a home I certainly wouldnt want to be put on the chopping block by Waren or whomever – read the Dictations posted IRT the matter –

    Warren says that the UEP and people that stay there are “REJECTS”.

    He hasnt recanted that. So what if he, or Willie recant it? The word is out.

    UEP IS REJECTED BY GOD!

    How do you put toothpaste back in the tube?

    IRT the Safety Net – It seems the focus is for safe delivery of people whom want / need to gt out – NOT for LE action.

  32. Thanks Stamp. Does anyone know how many families have left because of the help from the Safety Net? Or are they providing foods and $$ to those that can’t feed and house their growing families? They should be able to get assistance from the Welfare programs already in place. imo
    The Hope Organization is one example of a group that has been in place for years.

    The 700 thousand could be used to help monitor and investigate allegations of abuse again mo.

    Have there been any marriages performed since Warren has been in jail and if so who is performing them?

    IF Warren is still “acting” as Prophet has he passed on any comments at these hearings? IF there is no one in “charge” who is doing the talking? Willie? Seth? Issac? Lyle? Mary Batchelor? Shurtleff?

    Has Mark Shurtleff and company stepped in to help any other groups in Utah protect their homes and lands? I am also curious as to why these meetings are behind closed doors so to speak? We’ve seen videos of Merril sleeping, Willie doing the Curley Shuffle, but no real footage of these guys in court and NOTHING concerning the UEP talks. Why is that?

    Just curious.

  33. DEBATER WROTE: My (SCREENED AND UNCENSORED) comments can be found at the DESERETNEWS (DOT) COM and SLTRIB (DOT) COM, internet edition. Thank You.

  34. walton

    Isaac has been nowhere to be seen. Seth’s been around. Lyle was at the hearing on Motion to Suppress, and he was at the UEP settlement talks. Willie does the talking but Merril, Wendell and Lyle are the decision makers. It’s been said that Willie has to sit across the room or at a different table when Wendell, Merril and Lyle discuss big boy business.

  35. So, any guesses on what NewCo would be? How can a settlement — a land conveyance, no less– include a fictitious entity? For that matter, the “FLDS Church” is a fictitious entity also ..at best a loose voluntary association that can’t take title to land.

  36. Walton,
    Safety Net got the money from the Utah legislature to hire a Safety Net Committee co-ordinator and a case manager to direct people to where they can get services and to perform counseling. There is no money for them to provide to anyone to get out of polygamy. There is some money for education – like educating the general public on matters pertaining to polygamy. And teach other service providers how to be sensitive when dealing with polygamists. The Safety Net group is there to help people both in and out of polygamy. The Safety Net co-ordinator went to Texas with Anne Wilde and Mary Batchelor with Principle Voices of Polygamy pro-polygamy group. They went to educate these Texas on polygamy and cultural sensitivity when working with people in or from polygamy.

    A few years ago when the Safety Net group got started, there was a grant from the Department of Justice for $700,000. $70,000 or 10% of the grant money was available to help people with housing and relocation expenses. That is not the case with the current Safety Net – no money to help people.

    If Harry Reid renews his polygamy crime bill, then he wants money available for investigating crimes and abuses in polygamy. He also wants money to help people wanting to leave polygamy.

    I think that unless Harry Reid gets this polygamy task force crime bill passed, there probably won’t be any in depth investigations of the crimes or any actual money to help the victims of these crimes.

    Like you mentioned, there are groups like the HOPE Organization that actually help people with food and housing, etc. to get out. Can you imagine what kind of help could have been provided if the Utah legislature had given that money to a group like that to actually help people? But it is being spent on a co-ordinator and case manager and education instead of on the people who really need it.

  37. Thank G-d someone else said it.

    The “Safety Net” is about pro-polygamist education. That’s what the Utah government’s money, and energy is spent on regarding this issue.

    Imagine that.

  38. Utah allocated about $300,000 per year for Safety Net. I think they committed to fund it for 3 years.

  39. Appreciate the info on the Safety Net.

    I would love to see the Texas lege allocate resources for helping transition victims of polygamy abuse into the mainstream.

  40. I’d like nothing better, except for the protection of a guarantee that they won’t lose their children to a polygamist. They can mess up and lose them to CPS, but not to the father, or back to a cult.

    Without that guaranteed protection, they won’t leave. Give it to them and watch what happens after a few years, if that long.

    Texas should give them their freedom, guaranteed.

  41. It’s a really difficult situation. I believe there are women would would consider leaving if it didn’t look so hopeless and bleak on the outside. How does a woman without job skills and a gaggle of children make it on the outside without a significant amount of help? I think that is the bigger roadblock than the fear of losing their children.

    I don’t know how Carolyn did what she did. It still takes my breath away.

  42. I have just barely found this site. I have been intentionally left in the dark by both the state of Utah and the state of Arizona. I am sure that I am not the only one who has had a problem with Wisan and the others who have felt that they had a right to take that which doesn’t belong to them and sell it. I am not a member of the FLDS but I used to live on UEP property. Property which Wisan has since sold. What ever happened to a person’s constitutional rights??

    I agree with FLDS TEXAS’ comments on May 22, 2009 at 4:38 am.

    I am having a difficult time downloading the document on the proposal.

    I have very little respect for the attorney general’s offices in Utah and Arizona. They just want to look good and get re-elected. They do little to serve the people in their jurisdiction.

    Wisan was supposedly hired to “protect” the trust, which is a land trust. One of the first things he does is start selling the land. How is that protecting the trust? Before Wisan took hold of Colorado City it was full of businesses and people. Now, most of the businesses have gone elsewhere and many of the houses are empty.

    Walton makes a comment on May 25, 2009 at 1:20 pm. He asks about the committees that have been set up to help those those in polygamy. I lived in the area for many years. Most of the children in those communities were very well dressed and polite. They were happy, at least, before Warren Jeffs turned everything upside-down. There were a few homes where there must have been some dysfunction, but most were good homes with well-adjusted families. I am sorry if this doesn’t fit what the media portrays, but they often don’t publish the truth. They want to sensationalize and sell papers.

    I have known a few people who were helped by the “Safety Net” but not many. My pet peeve is the program that was supposed to help the “Lost Boys.” Where did all the money go? How many boys were really helped? I know quite a few of those boys and very few of the promises they were given were kept. Where did the money go if it didn’t go to them? Where is the accountability?

    I am reading a lot of comments on polygamy abuse, but what about the abuse that goes on in homes in our own neighborhoods? Shouldn’t we be concerned about that, also? Why so much money allocated for assisting a certain group of people and not everyone?

    Carolyn’s situation was not a good one. Not all of the men are as controlling as her husband..But, her experience is not the same as everyone elses. The biggest problem is the fact that polygamy is illegal. If it were legal, then more people would open up and report abuses. No one is going to report abuse if it is going to bring trouble to them. I have been in many polygamous homes where there is lots of love and the wives are very happy. If they want to live it, let them. If they don’t, help them leave. It’s no different then anywhere else. If a woman in a monogamous marriage wants to live with her husband, let her. If she wants to leave, then hellp her.

    I enjoyed living in that community before Warren Jeffs took over and did what he did. The people I associated with were sweet people, but just like all other communities in this world, there were also some troubled families.

  43. Thank you to everyone for the replies.

    I wasn’t able to download the document from this site but I was able to from the HOPEorg. site: http://thehopeorg.org/news.html It is close to the bottom. 700 homes it said. That is a lot of homes. But it doesn’t state if they are all occupied.

    If that is what has Shurtleff doing the happy dance, I am NOT impressed.

    Trampledon I appreciate what you are saying about each community having some dysfunctional families but as you can see this isn’t about one or two families. The local law enforcement, Judges, political arena, Mayors office,postmaster, school and the many families that continue to break the law have an impact on the whole community. jmo

    A person can blame everything on Warren but it was taking a downhill slide even when Rulon was in charge. If it wouldn’t have been so bad then someone would have jumped up and voiced their concern when Warren was taking over. But even then the voices were silent.

    I personally think that Mr. Wisan has done an outstanding job trying to keep the trust together. I’ve yet to see any documentation from Rod Parker explaining to any members of the FLDS what was all included in on the trust. I’ve yet to see anything in writing saying Rod Parker has reduced his fees for anything.

    If Polygamy were legal I believe we would be seeing more issues than what we already have. jmo If they can’t keep up with the paper work now they never will. Polygamy has been practiced in this area for over 100 years. We can all see how well that has NOT worked. I think this situation should be straightened out before they open up another can of worms. jmo

  44. Trampledon, thanks for your input. Of course not every member of the FLDS abuses their children or commits fraud on the government – but when you start looking under the surface and behind the sweet smiles and well pressed dresses it’s not all as rosey as you describe. You may have experienced life at the creek different than how it is portrayed or how some people imagine it, but that doesn’t mean there weren’t widespread crimes going on.

    No offense, but I think your attitude is part of the reason the situation has been able to reach the
    critical point it has now. .People are only interested in how the situation looks on the outside and how it affects them personally. For you, it was better when houses weren’t empty and there were more businesses, when your neighbors were polite and children were well groomed and well mannered. That is also part of the insidiousness of this community – they have done a remarkable job of presenting a pleasant veneer outwardly while the community continues to operate as a massive crime syndicate behind closed doors.

    I don’t believe abuses would be reported if polygamy were legal. They would still handle matters internally according to the Prophet’s directive. Women and children would still be oppresssed and it would still be economically unsustainable by legal means – that is WHY it is illegal, not the other way around. Besides, don’t you have a problem with parents who knowingly and willfully break the law, knowing it puts their children at risk of being taken into foster care and getting their fathers put in prison? I don’t care how well you groom your children and how well you have taught them to behave – that is selfish behavior on the patents’ part and it completely fails to make the children’s well being the top priority

  45. By the way, it’s a fact that the standard if living has gone down since Wissn was appointed, but I think you’re attributing that to the wrong reason. Wisan is a paid appointed, and he has to sell property to even generate cashflow to manage the trust and make an accounting. Not to mention the trust keeps getting sued by the very people who are supposed to benefit. That’s like you or me suing our own savings account just because we wish we were earning a higher interest rate.

  46. Trampledon

    “Wisan was supposedly hired to “protect” the trust, which is a land trust. One of the first things he does is start selling the land. How is that protecting the trust? Before Wisan took hold of Colorado City it was full of businesses and people. Now, most of the businesses have gone elsewhere and many of the houses are empty.”

    Have you read the latest Dictations on this blog where Warren says, among other things, “Answer them nothing”, and the UEP and people who remain there are rejected of God(in other words)..??

    The fact he is skimming the cream of the crop, businessmen and their families for YFZ, might be a reason for Shrotcreek losing its soul.

    Again, attributable to Warren.

    BTW I wasnt aware he sold residential land. As trustee he sued Warren for the HArker Farms (held under title of the Fist Presidency -HIM) and offered at Auction – not enough bidders so he bought it for the UEP.

    THOSE residents went from “First PResidency” property to “UEP” property. There was a dispute with the residents yes and I think some wer relocated.

    The bulk of your post is correct in that you recognize Warren as the one who set upon the FLDS these destructions.

    IRT Polygamy being legalized, well, you might say Warren screwed that up too.

  47. PS TrampledonbyWarren

    You can download by left clicking, it will launch, or right click, “Save Target”

    Any problems please ask.

  48. In response to Walton’s comment about the downhill slide. Rulon Jeffs had a few bad strokes in the 4 years before he died. During this time, Warren Jeffs started carefully and gradually grooming the community for his eventual takeover. Things got slowly worse and worse. If you place a frog in a pan of boiling water, it will jump out immediately. If you place this same frog in a pan of cool water and gradually turn up the heat, it will cook to death. People are much the same way.

    You mention that voices were silent, but that isn’t true. Eventually, anyone who questioned Warren about any decisions made was cut-off. I don’t blame everything on Warren, however. There were people who were teaching their families that they must have “perfect obedience” and there were also those who wanted to be lead and told what to do rather than searching the scriptures and seeking answers for themselves. These are just some of the things that prepare a people for the things that Warren did. There were many people who lost their families because they chose not to be “sheep.” Some of us even tried to contact the attorney generals’ offices about some of the things that were taking place, but they ignored us. They would either say that the problem belonged to the other state or they would take our phone number, but never reply. The Mohave County Sheriff’s department was also unwilling to do anything about some of the problems that should have been handled by them.

    When Warren kicked out that first large group of men, he kicked out anyone who he saw as a potential threat to what he was doing; anyone who had any kind of influence on people that would get them to think or had any kind of a following. He didn’t dare “excommunicate” Bishop Fred M. Jessop at this time, however, because that would have caused the people to rebel against Warren. He got William Timpson Jessop to help him to take care of this threat to his power. As soon as Fred Jessop told a few of his “trusted” friends that things were seriously wrong, he was whisked away so that he couldn’t warn the people. Fred Jessop died a lonely man in a hospital in Colorado.

    I personally know that Wisan has done everything he could to break up the land trust. He has had to be very careful in the way that he does this. I lived there and dealt with him on several occasions. He has lied to the media and to the people many times. He ignored everyones concerns and went ahead with his agenda.

    I don’t know very much about Rod Parker, except that he represents the FLDS. What do Parker’s fees have to do with what Wisan and the state of Utah are doing? This seems irrelevant

    I don’t have much respect for half of the people who are “representing” the FLDS on that proposal. Half of those listed on the document are dishonest; the other half are very good people. The FLDS people and most of those who are outcasts from the FLDS know what lands are in the trust. This is public knowledge that is readily available to anyone who wants to know. Even you could look this up in the county court house records.

    In response to FLDS Texas, you need to realize that when I talk about what the community was like, I am mostly talking about the time before Warren took over. I still know a lot of these people and I envy some of their family relationships. I have spent hours in some of their homes. I have been both an insider and an outsider in that community.

    I am not offended by your comment about what you perceive to be my attitude. Some of the people are more concerned about outward appearances; some are not. This is applicable in any community.

    You mention a massive crime syndicate. What is this massive crime that you are referring to? Polygamy? If so, how is this worse than the massive adultery that goes on everywhere else in this country which has other countries viewing us as immoral and corrupt?

    The whole reason polygamy was made illegal in the first place was to fight against a religious group of people. It should never have been made illegal back then, either. The constitutional rights guaranteeing freedom of religion have been trampled on ever since.

    Everyone seems to believe that any women who are in polygamous marriages are oppressed. Although this may be true in some families, this is not true in the majority of them. I have seen many, many monogamous marriages where the woman is oppressed.

    I hope this doesn’t offend anyone, but to say that you shouldn’t legalize polygamy because of what Warren Jeffs and a few others have done would be like saying that some Catholic Priests sodomized some boys so we shouldn’t allow there to be any Catholic Priests.

    I am against forced marriages, I am also against child marriages, and I am against “musical marriages,” all of which Warren Jeffs has done. He took the basic principles that the people had been taught and turned them upside down. He claimed to receive revelation, first from his dead father, then from God. The majority of the people blindly followed. There were quite a few who didn’t agree, but were afraid of losing their families. Many of them lost their families eventually, anyway. Interestingly enough, Rulon Jeffs tried to warn them just before he died. It was during one of his more lucid moments. He had Warren Jeffs tell the people that he had a message for the men. Rulon Jeffs gathered up his strength and he said, “I want you to gather your families around you and teach your wives to love you.” He said this twice, then he said, “You will need this for what’s ahead.” He didn’t live very long after that. By the way, one of the things that the people had been taught before Warren took over was that you lost your priesthood if you exercised unrighteous dominion over your families. You were to show forth love and patience. Unfortunately, some men didn’t.

    If the state seized the property, which they finally admitted that they did, then there are no taxes owed on the property. Wisan is paid by the state. A judge in St. George said that they shouldn’t have seized the property in the first place and that the state should settle with the people.

    In response to Stamp: I haven’t read any of the other articles, yet. The proposal is the only thing that I have read, but I have known of Warren Jeffs contempt for Colorado City and those who live there for quite some time. Yes, he supposedly took the “cream of the crop” but there were still a lot of good people in Colorado City. There were still businesses, also. Not all of the businesses were owned by Warren Jeffs, despite what Bruce Wisan told the press.

    Yes, Wisan sold (or at least led people to believe that that he is selling them) residential land. He sold our home to some other people. He has sold other homes, also. He has displaced businesses and people. He has also given out some deeds.

    We’ve not only been trampled on by Warren, but by Wisan and the state of Utah. They have done my family more harm than Warren ever did.

    By the way, this is the first Blog that I have responded to even though there are quite a few others that I have read. I appreciate that what I have read so far has been well thought out and there isn’t any ignorant, thoughtless bashing. I feel that some of what has been said has been from misinformation or applying a problem of a few to all. Polygamy is not the cause of the problems. Blind obedience to any man is the cause!!

  49. Trampledon

    Thanks for an EXCELLENT post. An insiders view is always welcome and insightful. I have to agree there are many good people there – err most perhaps, however cooked like a frog. I wish no ill will on them, but rather, the right and ability to make their own decisions without being a hostage to a maniac.

    That is the state and Wisans job – yes to part out the UEP so people can control their own destiny and not be hostage to the whims of a schizo paranoid who stole his position.

    I experience empathy to the residents and outrage at Warren. Many of my posts ridicule the FLDS – this is to remind them of the boiling water, if it hurts feelings then I guess I did my job.

    It doesn’t negate the fact I have empathy for them.

    In my not-so-young years I have witnessed multitudes of nasty things caused by religious fanatics on helpless people – from Rajneesh to Jones-town to Waco to Tony Alamo to Heavens gate come back around to Le Barons and Lafferty’s.

    Warren GAVE the UEP to the state – How is the state responsible, they picked up the pieces of this broken toy in the wrong manner?

    Warren is the root of the destruction, this you must recognize.

    Well, you DONT HAVE TO BELEIVE IT, but continue your study, look back, if you need a spread sheet showing time lines we can do that.

  50. duane

    ““They have done my family more harm than Warren ever did.”

    Yes Trampledon, I’ve made this point countless times.”

    Yes duane, you are always in error. Warren abandoned the UEP. Read the dictations. He said it was “REJECTED BY GOD”.

    Do you know what that means in FLDS terms?

  51. Warren was reacting to the pressure put on the FLDS by the state authorities, albiet IMO he a serious mistakes by fleeing. At any rate, based on current events he has either made a 180 degree change in position or is no longer calling the shots.

  52. It seems quite evident to me, when warren fled the creek, so did the communal monies. People were still giving money, Just not to UEPstrust for any purpose, even paying taxes.
    Warren sold off land before Wisan took over the trust. But, the people wanted ONE MAN rule thats what they got.
    Trampledon, Flds have no one to blame but themselves. Many were kicked out, many left on their own, the rest continued following obeying, laying on the cash alter everything they made. You can blame warren, or bruce wisan all you want, but the truth is, the PEOPLE in Flds can only blame themselves for making a MAN a GOD and worshipping him to the point of allowing him to take your children, your wives, your houses, your money..
    WAKE UP BUDDY!!! And tell anyone else in FLDS to WAKE UP!!! You don’t have GOD walking in the flesh on this earth. Run your own lives, raise your own families, you don’t need a dictator or a false God to do it for you!!!

  53. By the way, When Bishop Fred Jessop left the creek, he didn’t go to colorado, he went to Texas and lived on the ranch. He and Wendell Neilson were Warren’s advisors. I know he was either sent or left and went to colorado and died, but I also believe that was for God Warren’s sake,so LE wouldn’t know Uncle Fred had been in Texas for a good while on the ranch.

  54. Trampledon you said that Wisan sold your home to other people. Were you living in the home when this happened?

    Trampledon can you tell us what and why Willie is in the forefront of everything and what is his attachment to Mark Shurtleff?

    Is Warren still the Prophet?

  55. In response to Stamp:

    Two wrongs don’t make a right. The state had no more right to kill our business than Warren would have. At least Warren didn’t scrap our equipment, Wisan was a party to that. Warren didn’t dare touch it because it was owned by us, not the UEP. Wisan didn’t care. I guess the fiduciary and the state don’t have to follow any rules because of who they are. I guess the constitution is just an illusion.

    The fact that Warren abandoned the UEP doesn’t matter to me. A lot of people that lived in that community were glad that he did. They felt they could do better without him and they were, until the state stepped in.

    In response to duane:

    I think you will find that Warren hasn’t been calling the shots for quite some time. It is funny, but in the effort to eradicate the “polygs” the state has managed to cause them to spread all over the country. They are no longer contained.

    In response to Deputydog1:

    I am well aware of the mistakes the people made. We were warning them for quite awhile before Warren kicked out the first group of men. Not all left when they could see what Warren was doing. Some of us stuck around to try to open the eyes of others. We were fighting Warren and at first we saw hope when the state took over. Little did we know that they would be just as bad.

    As far as waking up goes, my eyes have been wide open. Perhaps if they had been closed, I wouldn’t be so frustrated now. (By the way, I’m not a guy.)

    Actually, Uncle Fred went to Mexico, first. Then he was sent to Texas, then Phoenix, then Colorado. Uncle Fred was not Warren’s advisor. Warren felt threatened by Uncle Fred’s popularity. He wanted to get rid of him, but he had to do it very carefully. Warren was very good at what he did. Even you missed the fact that Warren felt very uneasy around Uncle Fred. I was there. Warren Jeffs would “announce” something claiming it was from God and then watch the reaction of the congregation before he continued. At first, Uncle Fred was taken in, but then some of us could see that he was beginning to wonder. When he finally announced to a small group of men (of which William Timpson Jessop was a part) that something was seriously wrong, Warren had him removed. Warren controlled access to Uncle Fred from then on, eventually preventing even his wives from seeing him. Warren married some of Uncle Fred’s wives off before he was even dead.

    I was temporarily away from my home because of the pressures, but I was in contact with Wisan’s people in CC. I informed them that we would be returning. (My children and I needed a break from some of the persecution we were getting by a few of Warren’s followers.) One of the reasons Wisan was unhappy with us was the fact that we paid our taxes directly to the county and not to him. This way we made sure that the taxes got paid. Evidently, some of the tax money that was sent in to him, didn’t go to taxes and he didn’t think that anyone would check on it. Wisan has kicked several people out of their homes, by the way.

    In response to Walton:

    As far as why Willie is in the forefront of everything, I think it is because he is one of the ones who is trying to benefit from all the confusion. He is the one who helped negotiate the sale of the Gap property. He benefited by this sale. He now owns some property in the Gap that was someone elses. There are also dishonest people among the FLDS. “Wolves in sheep’s clothing.”

    As far as wether Warren is still “the Prophet,” I think that the people out there think he is, but I think Wendell and some of the others are dictating what goes on now. Some of those closest to him undoubtedly knew that he wasn’t what he claimed to be. They wanted power and some of them now have it.

  56. Stamp

    Please do send a timeline. Some of mine isn’t complete and I am working on my memoirs.

  57. trampledon,
    What happened to the Airplane?? It was purchased with school district money, along with other equipment? I read recently that the Idaho group has an airplane in a hanger there. Could that be the airplane that was stolen?

  58. deputydog,

    If I remember correctly the plane was leased, and simply went back.

  59. trampledon, It’s just hard for me to believe people, (men) would leave on the word of another (man). Tyranny is not acceptable in the United States, and thats what Flds became, and it wasn’t overnight. All the fraudulent front corporations used to buy, sell, and transport equipment from place to place along with people is against the laws of this country.

  60. deputydog1
    The Idaho group is not a part of Warren, they are some of those who left because they recognized that what he was doing was wrong.

    You need to realize that most of the people in the FLDS have no idea about the corruption of some of group. I am not defending those who are corrupt, in fact I am one of them who was fighting against them. I am defending those who are trying to live their lives in the best way that they know how. It is wrong to make laws to create criminals. That is what the laws against polygamy are. They were created to fight against another religion. This was and is unconstitutional. I am against taking away someones constitutional rights.

    I am not a follower of Warren Jeffs. It didn’t take me long to see through him. I was very saddened by the blind obedience that was given to him. Heartbroken by the lives that I saw ruined. I can’t even see my own grandchildren, who I love very much. Unfortunately, Warren is not the only one who has this kind of power. He is just a microcosm of what I see happening worldwide. Right now, our own rights are being threatened and most of us are too blind to recognize the threats. We go blissfully along and allow the rights of others to be trampled upon. Most people give little thought to what happens to others rights, but each time someones rights are trampled upon, we lose a little bit more of our own. Before you know it, we will find this country in a state of chaos with our freedoms taken away. Most of you are probably reading this and thinking, “She doesn’t know what she’s talking about. She’s crazy.” I wish I were, but history has a habit of repeating itself.

  61. “I am against taking away someones constitutional rights.”

    Trampledon,

    There is no constitutional right to practice polygamy. That was already settled by the SCOTUS. If you believe, or have been raised to believe, you have a constitutional right that is non-existent, I can’t help you.

    Creating law, which has actual teeth in it, to punish a crime, is not against the law, unconstitutional or un-American.

    Please do not think that I lack compassion for you, or the position in which you find yourself. I am highly aware that your own human and civil rights have more than likely been trampled on, but please don’t accuse law abiding citizens of doing it, when it was your own leadership.

    Polygamy is an abuse of women and children. Nobody’s right to religion should supersede our right as good citizens to protect women and children from abuse, or using the legal system to accomplish it.

    We as a society make laws all the time. When I was in High School the drug Ecstasy was all the rage and esily available because it was not illegal. Once people started seeing the negative effects it had, legislation was put in place to make it so.

    There is an example of a law that as you say, created criminals, instantly. BRAVO!

  62. The school’s airplane was not leased – they paid for that plane out of school district monies. That is one reason the school district was in so much debt. Another reason was there was a lot of skimming going on. They couldn’t find the plane for a long time and the FLDS wouldn’t tell them where it was. But, they did finally find it. The plane was auctioned off after the AZ AG had the school district put into receivership. The money received from the sale of the plane went to pay back the Board of Education. The school district was in a LOT of debt – teacher’s pay checks had even been bouncing. But, the teachers were apostates, so the FLDS didn’t care if their pay checks bounced. I never heard how much money they got for the plane at the auction.

  63. Trampledon

    Timeline – Warren ignored lawsuits, the UEP lost default judgements, the State took over to protect it from being completely gutted.

    Warren abandoned it to whomever wanted to pick it up. That you dont like the way the State handled it, is not surprising, but the alternative would have been for you to be paying rent to Elissa Wall, Brent JEffs and maybe one or two other litigants.

    So – try to envision some perspective.

    IRT the Polygamy laws – Boots is correct – look at the family damage in this largest and most famous sect.

    You cant even see your own Grandchildren. Mens families are taken, reassigned, sometimes a few times.

    This isnt America. This is outlaw activity leaving a trail of tears. No way will it be legalized, Warren helped seal the fate on that.

    Just yesterday the SCOC affirmed gay marriage illegal in CA. And Gay marriage didnt even have as a hot topic the subjugation and abuse of women and children.

    I’d like to think you had a good life – but you ended up hostage to a maniac, and his hencemen.

    I really think you of anyone deserves a home there – and btw you have made several accusations re / Wisan – “People kicked out of homes” “Personal property taken”..

    That is just heresay, do you have a link of stories or even just MORE information..!?

    Because on the face of it, its hard to swallow.

    I have heard that he forced the FLDS to return a grain elevator- THAT made news – that gives Wisan two points.

  64. I’m glad to see someone was keeping up with where the plane went. Thanks for the accurate information.

  65. And Anon,

    I agree with Stamp, you deserve your home! If there is anything the AAAP can do to help you, please just let us know.

  66. Boots

    Here is another example in history of a law that created criminals:
    Are you familiar with the story about Daniel in the lion’s den? A law was created by the king at the request of others. Little did he realize that this law was aimed at destroying Daniel. The law was that no one was to worship anyone but him. Daniel became a criminal as a result.

    Why do you think that a man having more than one wife is harmful? I know many people who live polygamy who are very loving. The women are very happy and so are the children. These women do not feel trapped nor are they being prevented from furthering their education. (They are non-FLDS). The families are not following a tyrant like Jeffs. They are trying to live the “Golden Rule.” All they want is to be allowed to live their lives. This should be a separate issue from the issue about Warren or any other fanatic. There are fanatics forming groups that are not polygamous, also.

    Should we make a law against monogamy because there are so many disfunctional marriages out there?

    Stamp

    I was hoping for a timeline with actual dates. I know the information, just not the dates.

    As far as polygamy goes, not everyone who practises it belongs to some group. There are many in the United States who live it. To judge polygamy by what happened in CC or anywhere else is wrong. The fact that I can’t see my grandchildren is not because of polygamy, but because my children chose (note that they chose) to follow Warren Jeffs.

    I’m sorry but it is not hearsay about Wisan kicking people out of their homes. I was there for a lot of it. I doubt if the media printed anything about it because they only wanted to print what made him look good. I know because I tried to get the media to print some of the things he was doing that weren’t right. They just ignored me because it wouldn’t be “politically correct” to say anything against what he and the state were doing.

    Boots

    I’d be surprised if the AAAP helped me. I am not against polygamy. I am against a lot of the wrongs that I’ve seen committed within the FLDS and other groups, however. I feel that the criminalization of polygamy is one of the things which helped to create these problems. If two women want to share the same husband, why not let them? What business is it of ours?

  67. Trampeldon,

    I’d be happy to address all of that, in the open discussion area, if you would like to re-post it.

  68. I don’t know a WOMAN alive that would cheerfully share her husband with another woman trampledon! It’s not a Female’s nature to share the man she loves with another woman in her bed.
    I don’t say they wouldn’t try it or live in polygamy Im saying any woman who says she cheerfully does it is a LIAR!!

  69. They have to be groomed and trained for that, and instilling a fear of eternal damnation seems to work best for the job at hand.

  70. T

    Brent sued in 2004. The trust was taken over in 2005 when the suit went unanswered.

    Elissa sued in 2006.

    She won the criminal case. Warren has been in Prison since his capture in late August 2006.

    http://www.fbi.gov/page2/aug06/jeffs082906.htm

    BTW your loss of your Grandchildrens affections – may be reclaimed in court. Also, yes it is due to the “RELIGION WHICH INCLUDES POLYGAMY” that has seperated you.

    Polygamy itself didnt cause it, but rather, the often dysfunctional familial relationships which are damaged in this setting.

    ITs not the only church that splits families, granted – but Churches that do have something to hide.

    Usually quirky, unreasonable doctrines.

  71. I have tried to download that proposal from this site and from another. It hasn’t worked for me. Probably because I have dial-up.

  72. Stamp
    I looked into getting visitation rights to see me grandchildren. I was told that it would be very costly. Since starting over in a new place, we’ve barely been able to meet our basic expenses as long as work holds out. We don’t have the means to hire a lawyer to go to battle for us.

    How many pages is that proposal? What is the jist of it? Does anyone know what is going on at the present?

  73. I am starting a blog. Please tell anyone who knows anything about the “Lost Boys” or who is interested in them to participate in it. It is at: http://trampledon.wordpress.com

    I appreciate all of those who have answered my responses. Thank you.

  74. trampledon

    Good luck with your blog, I will visit it, and hopefully you can provide corroberating evidence to your stories. We enjoy good traffic here, and we feel thats because we provide actual content. I hope that tip helps you in your success.

  75. trampledon, you can go to LegalAid and they can help you with visitation rights, and its free.

  76. When I went to LegalAid before, they said they didn’t handle this kind of case.

  77. Trampledon,

    I know you don’t think I could possibly truly care about you, or your situation but you’re wrong. The damage done to your family is deplorable, and I do feel for you.

    Although our organization doesn’t have deep pockets, more like pockets that barely jingle, if there is anything we can do for you regarding this matter we will.

    I support your right to see and have a loving and healthy relationship with your grandchildren, even if you aren’t a member in good standing with their parent’s choice of church or faith.

    You deserve better.

  78. The lawyer at Legal Aide is the one who told me that it would probable cost thousands of dollars. She wanted a large retainer in order to handle the case outside of Legal Aide Services.

  79. Well, I know lawyers want their money. They spend a lot of it on their education and it can take decades to pay it all off sometimes. Without getting into a discussion of whether Shakespeare was right about them…;) I will say that there should be one, somewhere, who might take the case for the media exposure it could garner them.

    The problem, as I see it, is that the media up in your neck of the woods doesn’t seem to care too much about what has happened to the survivors of this mess.

    Have you considered contacting Mike Watkiss in Phoenix, to see if he might do a feature story to highlight the injustice being done to your family?

    What about the ACLU? I think they have stood up for the rights of grandparents in the past. I would be more than happy to write an official letter of support, from Americans Against Abuses of Polygamy, to them, to help bring attention to your plight.

  80. FLDS Texas
    Here is a site which mentions about Isaac Wyler, an employee of Bruce Wisan, being convicted for trespassing on people’s property. He entered many people’s homes without permission. In one incident that I know of, Wyler changed the locks to a woman’s home after she left for work. I think that was the incident that was the last straw.

    http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=30639&sec=26&con=4

    Here is another one that relates to it and has a little more information:
    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705297443/Criminal-charges-filed-against-Wisan.html?pg=1

    I can’t give you much more information than this without giving out names. I wouldn’t do that without the permission of those involved.

    Boots

    I have considered the ACLU and I am presently working on a letter to them. Hopefully they will help. I’ll check out the AAAP site.

    I didn’t write to you in the open discussion section because I read the content there and much of it is VERY hateful. If I had read that page first, I would never have written anything in these other pages. I am glad that I didn’t. I have needed a place to vent some of my frustrations.

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