You’ve Been Served

 

Pages from Child Support Petition

 

 

Carolyn Jessop is suing Merril for child support and back child support for her eight children.   I guess that answers the question about whether Merril has supported his children — apparently not.    It will be interesting to see if he resists supporting them now.    I was not aware Carolyn had a disabled child.    That is sad that their father has not supported them, especially if one is disabled.

Hat Tip TxBluesMan who describes how Merril was served today:

“From what I learned, Willie “the Enforcer” Jessop attempted to interfere with the deputy and to argue with him. Instead of messing with Willie, the deputy focused on his task, and when Merril refused to take the court summons from him, placed it on his shoulder and said “you’ve been served.” Merril allowed the summons to fall to the ground and walked away…”

http://coramnonjudice.blogspot.com/2009/05/flds-bishop-merril-jessop-served-during.html

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on May 13, 2009.

134 Responses to “You’ve Been Served”

  1. Oh yeah, Uh HUH, pay it up Merril! Welcome to American Society – where you arent a special muckeyt muck any longer – your JUST A DEAD BEAT DAD.

    That GONNA PAY.

  2. You watch,he will deny having any money or assets!LOL
    I also noticed carolyn included all her children on all the trusts as being beneficiaries… Good for her!!!

  3. LOL…

    I hope his heart holds out…

  4. Old Fart, his heart couldn’t be to bad, he travels continually back and forth to utah, he was in the UEPtrust discussions for over a week,, of course he could of been sleeping through those. LOL

  5. I noticed Carolyn is asking that Merril be ordered to maintain a life insurance policy so child support will be covered if Merril dies…

  6. There was a post over at TBM site about this situation as being more convoluted and interesting than any soap opera ever invented. I have to agree. A scrip writer couldn’t not have come up with a more appropriate way to settle “karma” than to have Ms. Malonis, with required payment of attorney’s fees by Merril, be the lawyer.

  7. You know, I Hope Carolyn gets every penny she asked for, and Id be willing to be Malonis will see to it, she does!!

  8. They’re going to hate having to deal with Malonis again.

  9. This is so funny. Go Natalie and Carolyn!!!

    Won’t Judge Walther just love having this heard in her court.

  10. i totally wish they had arrested willie for interference. i’m sure he’d love the inside of the tom green county jail.

  11. I’m absolutely loving it. Natalie Malonis, wherever you are, you are my hero. That process server must have been like an electrical short across the tedium of Gerry Goldstein’s two-notebook presentation to Judge Walther’s court.

  12. “Toto, I have a feeling we’re not in Utah anymore.”

  13. Way to go Carolyn and Natalie. Watch out merril, Malonis is back in the saddle! And she has already proven that she FIGHTS for her clients and that weewillie is no match for her! Love the fact that a couple little tiny women are going to take down the flds! Just think of all the discovery Malonis gets to do to untangle all bishop merril’s finances!

  14. It’s only a beginning. Merril and Willie are such clowns!

  15. Rumor has it that Natalie has been receiving calls from a Sarah Barlow Jessop discussing representation of her ongoing child custody and support case. Faunita and Ruth Jessop are believed to be looking for proper council for spousal support case(s). Looks like Barbara Jessop will likely be left standing when the musical chairs are all taken. Cathleen and Tammy Jessops attorney was unavailable for comment.

  16. I think that the floodgates will open soon…

  17. WELL,Merril will have to join the real world now.
    Where fathers are ordered every day to pay child support.
    Discovery should prove to be interesting and his IRS filings may be even more interesting.He can’t plead the 5th on that one.

  18. The thought that FLDS men will actually be held accountable to support their children just makes me smile (BIG). Btw, back-child-support is no small matter $$ – if Carolyn’s suit wins — they WILL include back-pay. The state considers it for the welfare of the child. No if’s and or buts. The paternity has already been stated/recorded – I think Merril’s goose is cooked. deep-fried. Welcome to Texas! 😉

  19. Oh, he can… but just like Malonis was going to do in the last case until it was non-suited, he can be compelled to answer by the judge.

    If he still refuses, then he goes to jail until he answers…

    This is way too much fun…

  20. And I am getting such a kick out of them asking the court to make merril pay for Malonis’ fees, I just love it! Guess we will soon see if merril has heart problems along with not being able to see or stay awake. LOL!

  21. Curiously I’ve known of men to fake death documents and go to reside in Mexico under an assumed name. Given today’s focus on checking out ID it may be more difficult or expensive but that’s about all.

    Do any of us even know where Merril has really been living this past year? NM or short crik or where?

  22. Well, he’s sort of screwed there…

    If he claims that he doesn’t live at the ranch, then he doesn’t have standing to fight the search warrants, the evidence comes in, and he goes to prison.

    If he admits to living at the ranch, then he is subject to the court’s jurisdiction for child support, and he pays out of his rear orifice…

    Either way (and probably both) he’s screwed…

  23. TBM, if Merril keeled over tomorrow, couldn’t Malonis sue his estate on Carolyn’s behalf? How would his death change things?

  24. It is sort of the Bernie Madoff problem—even if Carolyn Jessop takes all his money and sends him to prison, he’s an old man who doesn’t have much time to endure his sentence. And he hurt so many people, and their ‘sentences’ don’t end with his death.

  25. Yup

  26. Merril ya wanna be the Bishop of my new Church?

    We’re looking for a few good HOOTERS.

  27. Merril ya wanna be the Bishop of my new Church?

    We’re looking for a few good HOOTERS…

  28. Well in Court today Mr Goldstein made the point that Merrill Jessop and the other men had signed affidavits that they all recide at the ranch!!! Can you say,,SCREWED??? LOL

  29. I’m waiting for the first concubine to sue their ex-master, for convincing them they were married and had a husband, when in fact, no concubine has ever had any real marriage or any real husband. The whole set up is a fraud.

  30. Hi Boots!

    Good to see ya!

    Agreee 100 percent!

  31. Thanks!

    I’ve been a little crazy busy planing Flora’s Texas book tour and our Friends & Survivors picnic at the end of June. I hope everyone can make it, these guys need to know Texans care. Nobody else has cared in so long.

  32. if i’m not mistaken, carolyn can get interest on retroactive child support and support for 8 children is no drop in the bucket. the hearing on the child support issue is one that i might have to take off work to sit through.

  33. Boots

    Where is the party gonna be?

    Anon I hope its settled before he is incarcerated.

  34. http://tripleap.blogspot.com/

    The press release went out this morning. The picnic is set for June 27th in San Angelo, starting at noon…bring potato salad and lawn chairs, we’ll supply the gnats:) We’ve got a Texas sized message to send Oprah.

  35. COOL! That’ll match the Texas sized surprise Natalie gave Merril!

  36. Down at one of the parks, or the courthouse lawn or out at Ft Concho or or ?? Can you get a PSA at KIXY?

  37. I will try to get PSA’a on as many stations as posible, but it always helps if you contact your local station and ask them to give attention to the subject when they are asked.

    Here is a copy of the press release sent out this morning:

    Americans Against Abuses of Polygamy
    *******PRESS RELEASE*******

    Announcing the
    “Texans Know a Load of Corn When They See it, Oprah!”
    photo op

    Americans Against Abuses of Polygamy’s 2009 Friends and Survivors picnic will be held in San Angelo, Texas on June 27th at Glenmore Park, at noon. There will be many survivors of American polygamy present, hoping to meet Texans and explain the realities of the abuses they experienced, in person.

    In 1953, the State of Arizona raided the polygamous community of Shortcreek, in what is now Colorado City Arizona, home of the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints, currently led by Warren Jeffs, alleging abuse of underage girls, forced to engage in sexual relationships with much older men, under the guise of, “celestial marriage”.

    After the Arizona raid, the FLDS leadership responded with a concerted public relations campaign to show America how normal polygamy is.

    A piece in LIFE Magazine was the turning point in the public relations war, winning sympathy from across America, and calls for the FLDS to be left alone to practice their quaint religion, which apparently harmed no one.

    The man on the front page of LIFE, shucking corn with his concubines, who won the PR war for the FLDS, was Clyde Mackert.

    Over 50 years later, we will recreate that scene, at our Friends & Survivors picnic, with smiling corn shucking survivors, backed by Texans around a sign that reads, “Texans Know a Load of Corn When They See it, Oprah”!

    Although, this time Kathleen and Rena Mackert, daughters of Clyde Mackert, still unborn at the time of the photos, will be there among the survivors, front, and center. Both escaped polygamy, and both were sexually molested their entire childhoods, by the same smiling, corn shucking man who won the last national PR war for the FLDS.

    We will send the photo from LIFE Magazine with ours, to Oprah Winfrey; because we think she is playing the role of LIFE Magazine for the FLDS. Her exclusive interviews inside the YFZ Ranch, a year after the Texas raid, were full of softball questions and concentrated on bread baking and the family nature of the FLDS. She went on to ad her opinion that the U.S. prohibition against the cultural practice of polygamy should be re-examined.

    For more information, please contact executive director, k. Dee Ignatin

  38. Boots, we’ll give it a shot, end of next month eh!

  39. Were Faunita and Ruth Jessop left behind when the rest of the family moved to YFZ and this is the reason they are believed to be looking for representation for spousal/child support?

  40. FLDS Lawyers Try To Pull a Fast One…

  41. Faunita one of merrills wives died a few months back. But he had sent her off to live somewhere else before she died. She didn’t live at the ranch.

  42. They had her funeral in and burial in ColoradoCity

  43. TxBluesMan: Thanks for that link. That “fast one” seems to this non lawyer as being a stupid, shoot yourself in the foot, move on the part of the flds defense attorneys. Are they really that dumb or is this just desperation?

  44. I can almost guarantee that the lawyer didn’t have a clue…

    He took what the FLDS and its supporters gave him…

    But I can also guarantee that he is the one with the big red mark on his forehead…

  45. TBM: Thanks for the best laugh I have had in WEEKS!

  46. I’ve posted the pic that I believe is the one that they tried to use, if anyone can ID the FLDS supporter website that first posted it, I would appreciate it…

  47. WOW. That’s pretty dang sleazy

  48. Thank goodness the prosecuter PWNED Goldfart in his tracks.

    I dont know about Texas – but who wants to carry that around as their career calling card?

    “Goldstien – Oh the Attorney who gave fake pictures in his failed attempt to squash a Warrant? THAT Goldstien?”

    This will cost him classy clients – who want s to be associated with that noise?

    The Judges are gonna dine out on that one!

    ROTFLMAO!

  49. TBM

    Appraise us the stat of garnering the photo – PLEASE and THANKS!

  50. The photographer is Justin Cook, currently a staff photographer at the Roanoke Times in southwest Virginia. The took that photograph when he was a college student at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

  51. All we need is the link. Hopefully he will provide it to TBM.

  52. Y’know I thought it was interesting that someone here mentioned tha BillM dosn’t allow dissenters on his blog. Some of the nasty things people have written in mine have had to be removed. Others, although mean spirited, I have left up, so people who come know exactly what sort of folk we’re dealing with.

    I also thought it was interesting that Willie Jessop and BillM refused to participate in a public debate with me on the issue of polygamy. The owner of the Texas Star Tribune offered to set the whole thing up at San Angelo State University, if anyone would take my challenge. But they never have.

    One more comical/ironic thought, the headline in the SAST reads, “FLDS lawyers continue argument that judge was deceived”.

    Thanks to the Texas AAG, she wasn’t.

  53. Thanks for the not Boots! The judge however WAS decieved – –

    BY THE FLDS!!!

    LMAO

    Take that to the BANK!

  54. Like I said, ironic, isn’t it?

  55. Of course I still haven’t seen a reporter print it in a newspaper about the Fake photo!!

  56. Had Carolyn been legally married to Merril, she would have been entitled to alimony and property distribution in many states. It is just one more way that polygamy steals civil rights from women.

  57. Here is a link to the photo that was originally attached to the FLDS Motion and represented as being a photo that was taken during the rescue.

    http://www.justincookphoto.com/pages/cook25.html

  58. DD1 and GFNY, both excellent points.

    I suppose we will see if the new reporter, Matt Phiney, who took the place of Paul Anthony, will consider it worth mentioning. I would be stunned if he didn’t, but since I’ve been in this fight for 4 years now, I’ve been stunned an awful lot.

    Polygamy does steal rights. Although not one American feminist organization has stepped forward to offer help or support to the AAAP, ironically, the leader of the Organization for Women’s Freedom in Iraq, has. Below is her letter. I almost feel ashamed taking support from women so obviously oppressed…

    Dear K.Dee Ignatin,

    It seems that we fight for the same cause on opposite sides of the globe.

    Although polygamy was about to end in the modern Iraq, the political mess of the new millennium has introduced us into a new age of politicized misogyny. The new mutations of Islamism into an uncontrolled beast has made most feminists and egalitarian of the Middle-East lay low.

    A few of us are still determined to stand against them and tell the whole world that we, the women in Iraq, reject polygamy, paedophilia (of female children), and submission.

    I personally have gained a reputation at that, but it always comes with a high cost.

    Our current “democratic” constitution has given way to polygamy while it was penalized before the occupation.

    You have an ally and a supporter in Iraq.

    Keep on leading the struggle for women’s liberation and do not wait for appologists to make you stronger. You do not need them.

    In Solidarity,

    Yanar Mohammed

    Organization of Women’s Freedom in Iraq, president OWFI
    http://www.equalityiniraq.com

  59. Unbelievable…and no one has printed a word about it in the media?

  60. thanks flds texas.

  61. modern pharasee is reporting that judge walther was angry and irritated today. i’d be pretty irritated if i had an attorney try to pass off a fake picture in my courtroom.

  62. The Judge was quite irritated today. She looked downright angry about the photo, and she was mad at Goldstein yesterday for trying to “set her up.” She was generally irritated with Goldstein failing to observe proper courtroom behavior and interrupting her and other attorneys and not staying on track. She would tell him what kind of argument and information she wanted to hear and Goldstein would stray so far off into left field it was ridiculous.

    Interesting one of the attorneys (for Raymond Jessop I think) referred to all of the other attorneys for the other defendants as “co-counsel.” Maybe it was a slip of the tongue, but I think it was revealing.

  63. Oh I see Hugh is interpreting Walther’s anger to mean that she is cornered because she will have to have a hearing on exclusion. I think he’s wrong. I think she was mad because Goldstein was grandstanding and being deceptive and disrespectful and wasting a whole lot of time for a whole bunch of people. I predict that she will not allow the defense to go forward with a Franks hearing tomorrow. The defense had nothing at all to support a Franks hearing — either deliberately false statements in the probable cause affidavit, or reckless disregard for the truth (intentionally ignoring known facts). She knows exactly what the witnesses would say and what the evidence would be because the defense made 25 offers of proof — in essence, summarizing what the testimony would be and what evidence they would offer if they go forward with the hearing. She was not persuaded, and it was easy to tell because of her questions and comments to Goldstein.

  64. Absolutely adorable photo. Hard to imagine anyone trying to represent it as threatening. I imagine the harshest thing that SET guy said was, “Now, wash your hands.”

  65. Hi. I may be confused, but since the paternity action was filed in Utah, it seems to me that jurisdiction for any child support action would also be in Utah. It doesn’t matter where Merrill lives, only where the jurisdiction is set. If jurisdiction is in Utah, as the previous filings regarding the children suggest, then any child support matter will need to be filed in Utah, with a lawyer who can practice in Utah. I don’t think Texas can hear this matter or make a determination. Am I wrong?

  66. Also, I would appreciate it if people would stop calling plural wives “concubines”. It is demeaning and insulting and shows utter disrespect. Whatever issue you have with the FLDS or with polygamy, whatever, there are lots of families that are polygamous who love each other and are genuinely striving to be decent members of society. “Concubine” may be a Biblical term, and is referenced in the D&C. In the D&C, it speaks of “wives” and “concubines”, which distinguishes them as two different kinds of relationships. The suggestion is, and the belief of many fundamentalist Mormons is, that a man had wives and concubines in the Bible times. “Concubine” is not the same thing as “plural wife”. Do what you will, but if you are going to present yourself as caring about the women and children of polygamy and wanting to help them, be it to rescue or whatever, then you should consider refraining from insulting them with disparaging names. Just my two cents.

  67. con·cu·bine (kngky-bn, kn-)
    n.
    1. Law A woman who cohabits with a man without being legally married to him.
    2. In certain societies, such as imperial China, a woman contracted to a man as a secondary wife, often having few legal rights and low social status.

    I don’t see how using the correct english term for what they are can be “insulting”, except to shed light on the truth of the matter.

    A wife is a legal term. The FLDS concubines do not fit the legal term of wife. They fit the correct english definition of a concubine.

    A concubine, such as Carolyn Jessop, had no legal recourse to ask for alimony, as a wife would have. See the difference?

  68. I am aware of the difference between a legal wife and a plural wife and the rights attached thereto, but the use of the term in the manner in which you use it, Boots, is rude. Your comment does seem to be mocking toward polygamous women, not just the ones in the FLDS religion but all the others as well. It is one thing to say it with no judgment attached, no mocking tone attached, but that’s not how it struck me. Using the “legal truth” as a weapon is unnecessary to educate the public or plural families.

    I sympathize with the fact that plural wives have no legal standing or status in a marriage as the “legal” wife and understand the lack of legal equality. However, as a feminist, I take issue with insulting adult women who choose to be polyamorous or even live in a polygynous arrangement. Perhaps you do not know that some families take steps to equalize these shortfalls in the law through their own contracts or trusts.

    I don’t know about the FLDS, but not everyone in polygyny, polyandry, polygamy or polyamory is the same or pursuing their lifestyle for the same reasons, and even if they share some religious belief, such as some connection to Mormonism, it is short-sighted to assume that any woman who considers herself a “plural wife”, or who is connected to a man extra-maritally, is ignorant, enslaved or subjugated.

    I would also like to point out that alimony is somewhat archaic; it hasn’t entirely gone away, but just because a woman is legally married does not entitle her to alimony. If a woman is a “stay-at-home” mom, maybe, but even then it would be limited. It is one of the double sided coins of women’s equality; we have made gains, not enough, but many, in the workforce and the flip-side of that is that more and more, courts are looking to women to share in the financial support of their children. I’m not sure about you, but I am not willing to unwind feminist advances in order to guarantee alimony and support for women in the case of marital divorce.

    “Plural wife” may be a legal misnomer, but so what? No woman cohabiting with her partner is currently legally entitled to marital benefits either, and I am not about to start a rallying cry that they should be. That would be like enforcing marital dependency on someone who has chosen a different path.

    Not everyone wants the strings and yoke of legal marriage.

  69. Would any of you call a woman living with a guy a concubine? According to the above definition, you could. Try it, though, and see how well it plays off.

  70. Too bad you don’t like it. I’ve noticed that most people on the pro-polygamy side have a real problem with facts anyway.

    As for myself, I will continue to point to the truth, which is that they are concubines, not “wives”.

    As far as your assertation that not all polygamous relationships are abusive, I agree 100%.

    As I am unconvinced that all slave owner relationships were inherently, inevitably abusive. In fact, I have great historical proof that this was not the case.

    I also believe, however, that legal slave owner relationships and the acceptance of the cultural practice of slavery led to a hotbed of horrific abuse cases. Should the government have simply regulated the treatment of slaves rather than criminalized their ownership?

    If I am broke and unemployed, should I be allowed to sell myself into indentured servitude, as long as we are all consenting adults?

    What you are missing here is what most Americans are missing. You have no faces to put to the abuse and corruption. Perhaps if you talked to some of the survivors of American polygamy, you would be much more cautious with your children’s own future rights.

    Polygamy is illegal. Those who break the law should be prosecuted.

    If they do decriminalize it, women in this country will look back on the 20th century as a quaint golden age of civil rights for females, not unlike the persecuted women of Iraq, who stand behind our organization 100% by the way.

    I have women in Iraq sending me their support, asking what they can do to help me stop this from ever happening in America.

    I wonder which of you really knows more about the abuse which occurs in the cultural practice of polygamy?

    I take that back. I don’t wonder at all.

  71. I have talked with “survivors” of polygamy, and have worked with them. I have worked with abused women from all walks of life. I have moments where I think NO ONE should be allowed to get married or have children, but then I calm down and take a long-needed breather. You can’t work with victims if you’re too jaded to treat each victim as your first, each man, woman or child as a unique individual with unique circumstances. Kudos to your use of the term “survivor”, though, because no one needs to stay a victim if s/he receives the resources and tools necessary to become empowered.

    I am a free choice advocate and a feminist, not necessarily pro-polygamy, btw.

    I wonder that you think you can assert so strongly that you know the “truth.” The truth you claim to assert is YOUR truth and isn’t necessarily applicable to everyone else. Those of us in the service provider world learn pretty quickly that we must suspend our own biases when we work with victims or we risk doing more harm than good.

    I am not ignorant of the inherent imbalances of patriarchal structures. There is also a very real and persistent white privilege in American society. American society is structured from the top to the bottom patriarchally, and largely with underlying white power, so forgive me if I view a more overt patriarchal system with a little less shock and awe as you do. It simply is what it is. Do we change it from within and risk reinforcing or validating the structure itself, or do we change it from without, destroy it and grind it into the dust and start all over?

  72. i reread parts of Carolyn’s book last night and she said she didn’t go after child support because she couldn’t afford to hire anyone to dig out merril’s assets and he wasn’t forthcoming with his income. she was just grateful that she had all of her children.

    i think billm and company are expecting luanne to jump ship and run to the ranch when she turns 18 in july.

  73. From what I understand the suit was filed in Texas because Merrill signed a sworn affidavit that the YFZ Ranch was his regular place of residence.

  74. Even if Carolyn didn’t want to go after child support at the time, and frankly, I can sympathize with her desire to focus on gaining custody of her children, she is entitled to change her mind, AND she is entitled to back child support. She supported the children on her own and they were entitled to their father’s support during that time period. Child support is not waivable by either or both parents, legally. Parents often make other allowances, or verbal agreements, but none of those agreements would be valid in court if 1) the children end up being supported by the state, or 2) the custodial parent decides to seek child support officially, including retroactively.

    Child support is the obligation of both parents, depending upon their ability to work and their income levels.

  75. Okay, I think that might be a problem for the support suit. According to the paperwork above, it looks to me like paternity was established in Utah, and that might mean that Utah has jurisdiction. If there had been a legal divorce, it would for sure be in Utah. If custody was established in Utah, then jurisdiction is in Utah. They will need to file in Utah.

    In normal child support cases, a father’s income will be imputed to him if he is unemployed or if employment can’t be proved. It can, however, be very challenging to collect child support if there is no employer to collect from. One single mom I worked with had an ex-husband who quit a $90,000 per year job to avoid child support. He at first claimed to be unemployed, was ordered to get employed, then got a job that made far less than his previous several years of income. Her lawyer argued that the man had a job history that proved he was capable of earning more than he was, and the Judge agreed, and ordered him to pay a higher amount. The problem with that was that ORS is only able to collect 50% of a particular paycheck, no more, even if the child support award is greater. Carolyn’s case is complicated for a number of reasons, aside from the most obvious ones with the communal society and UEP trust.

  76. Carolyn’s lawyer is a smart cookie, and I think I’ll trust her to figure it all out.

    I hope she also sues the fooie out of the UEP Trust, and whoever raised her to believe she was getting a “husband” on the day they said their mumbo jumbo over her as they were giving her to a man old enough to be her father. She never had a husband, only an owner.

    That’s fraud in my book.

  77. i think that you can file where the children live or where a parent lives. in this instance, they state that utah has jurisdiction and are using some form of interstate agreement to file in texas where merril lives and can be served. i’m sure they wanted it filed here in walther’s court and where the ag makes sure dad’s are deadbeats.

  78. Ok, I got it clarified by a lawyer. I just had a question about jurisdiction, I wasn’t trying to argue it. Apparently her filing is fine and doesn’t have to be in Utah. Thanks.

  79. and i know in texas you can get support beyond 18 if they are handicapped in any way.

  80. gee I had no idea there were new comments on this thread. Reading now.

  81. To answer the questions in the last few comments – here’s the way it works. Utah does have jurisdiction because of the judgment of paternity. If they wanted to do anything with custody or visitation it would have to be filed there. A child support suit could be filed there as well – but it doesn’t have to be. The interstate family support act, which has been enacted in all 50 states, gives child support jurisdiction basically wherever any if the parties live or where property is located. Even if there were a prior child support order out of Utah, Carolyn could Stoll modify it or enforce it in a court in Texas. In this case it looks lie there was no prior order, and Carolyn is asking that child support be ordered and established for the first time.

  82. CadyJ – I appreciate your comments and agree with you that when people come to you for help you take them as they are and it might be very difficult to establish a rapport with a polygamous woman if you open the conversation with a diatribe about the evils of polygamy. I personally do think it us inherently harmful to women and children – and this child support case is a real world example of how the polygamous lifestyle is at odds with modern culture and our system of property ownership and division, chld support, probate, etc. Those are public policy concerns that ultimately trickle down and affect us all. Aside from that it is illegal and I think it is very risky to children to live under the constant threat of mommies and daddies going to prison got committing felonies. I don’t tjomk that is fair to children. I have seem too many cases where the women and children do endvup oppressed and without any choice or determination on their lives. I think that is how the dynamics tend to play out in those relationships – I’m sure there are exceptions and I’m not necessarily philosophically opposed to the practice – it just doesn’t seem to play out as idyllic as of sounds like it would in theory.

    Nevertheless – I personally don’t think much progress is going to be made by trying to force a paradigm shift down anyone’s throat.

  83. Sorry for typos but I’m not correcting them …at least not right now.

  84. The corollary to my earlier comment us that for women who want out of polygamy or didn’t choose it in the first place or even women who are ok the fence and qurationimg – I think Boots’ hard-line, take mo prisoners style of advocacy and support is the only way those women will have the strength and courage to break the bonds. I’m those situations it’s important to call it like it us and not sugarcoat or trivialize the experience – if they as searching and questioning and looking for a way out they’ve most likely been traumatized for years and need to disrupt the old circuits.

    Bet y’all didn’t think I could find a way to agree with both of you 😉

  85. Thanks FLDS TEXAS,

    I appreciate your comments, greatly.

    I do believe there is great gain to be had in a paradigm shift in this issue, especially in Texas.

    It is too late for Utah and Arizona. They made their choice in 1953. There are now, by the AZ and UT Attorney Generals, right on their state websites, admissions that it is too late, now. There are simply too many practicing polygamists to doo anthing about it.

    In 1953 there were less than 200 children removed from Shortcreek. They gave them all back. There are now thousands more.

    If no law is drawn in Texas, what makes anyone think it will be different here?

    The allegations of abuse I have heard from the lips of real survivors leaves me no choice as a humanist. It is real. It is prevelant. It is invasive within the culture.

    These women still in it tell you they are free but are they really free? Pam Black struck me at my heart when I heard her tell of how they took all her books away from her. Reading was her life. It was her salvation, her only escape from her horrible life. They took it away from her, because their religious leader ordered it.

    What kind of freedom is this for any women or child? Aren’t we full human beings, too?

    To say these women can just leave is an outright lie. They can only leave when they finally have the courage to go to Hell for eternity rather than endure the control and submission. Then they have to find someone they implicitly trust to come rescue them.

    It might as well be legal in Arizona and Utah. The law enforcement, medical, social system and Judicial system operate completely as if it is.

    And we have victims. When we are very lucky we have survivors.

    “Feminists” may not care. I’m a Texan and I do. I’ve staked everything in my life on it, because somebody has got to care. Somebody has to help.

    Because I am a Texan I understand the Alamo. We understand that not everyone who is innocent, righteous or even brave is actually rescued. Some of them do die alone and unprotected. Perhaps we understand the concept of protecting the weak and hopless better because we know that sometimes, even for those who deserve a miracle, like those men at the Alamo did…the help never comes.

    If we know someone needs our help, we’re not the kind to pretend we didn’t see or hear anything. Look at how we took in Louisiana’s huddled teaming masses after Katrina and then we have taken care of ourselves after two more of our own devastating hurricanes, quite well….without whining to the rest of the country about how we need their help, I might ad. We take care of our own.

    Maybe we don’t particularly like the idea of people having to die alone, hoping in vein someone will come rescue them.

    Maybe we’re a dying breed. Maybe we’re obsolete in a world where everything is supposed to be settled with civility and compromise.

    Or just maybe we really are the Lone Freakin Ranger…all 22 million of us.

    I may be “hard core” but like most real Texans I have a heart of gold. I’ve shed way more than one tear over what I have seen done to these women and children.

    I will not stand by and see what I have seen done to Arizona and Utah women done to a generation of Texas women.

    No, sir. I will not.

  86. Amen Boots!

  87. Boots the house divided argument challenges your belief in UT and AZ polygamy is too late. I believe either we are all one form of marriage or the other. Polygamy was an early cursed practice on Mormondom and never fully practiced. It was one of the preconditions to Utah becoming a State and just like the Prohibition era, the Law has to be enforced or changed. You can’t ignore polugamy and quasi-legalize it as Ytah and Arizona has done. One very good reason why not is the FLDS Church Diaspora into Nevada, Colorado, Texas, South Dakota and Idaho. Bigamy laws need to be enforced on their own account or redressed by a Constitutional Amendment, if needed based upon Supreme Court ruling(s). We the People, by majority rule, have the freedom and independence to order our Nation into any form of Democracy that is collectively popular and not be dictated to by some covert religious sect on the true meaning or definition or our Republic’s civil rights. One Nation under God with liberty and justice for all( including non-practicing and victims of bigamy). If Slavery and Suffrage could be dealt with Democratically, I have no belief and give bigamy no quarter to co-exist in Our Republic.

  88. caJM,

    We are already a house devided. That’s my point. I’ll repeat, Utah and Arizona have already made their decision. Arizona has no written penalty for polygamy. It is simply against their constitution. If they wanted to do anything about it, their legislators would have introduced actual penalties into their law codes. They haven’t and they won’t.

    Texas on the other hand, which has yet to be completely corrupted by the money coming from these groups, still has a choice and a chance.

    We can do what the anti-slave states did. We can write and pass legislation, which makes the practice a felony in our state, with real jail time and everything golly gee.

    We can also protect the victims and survivors by passing legislation that would do the following:

    Any man or woman that leaves polygamy, with no intention of practicing it again, gets automatic custody of their children.

    In AZ and UT, what we see over and over again is that in custody battles with women who leave with their children, the judge awards custody to the still polygamous father, because he can show income and the ability to support the children. These children are then handed over to the rest of his concubines, leaving the run away mother, who has no education or job skills, with nothing.

    It teaches the rest of the concubines a big lesson, “If I try it I will lose my children too”.

    They have tried repeatedly and unsuccessfully to get a law through the AZ legislature, which would do this for women, grant them automatic custody if the judge has any reason to believe the other parent will continue to engage in polygamy.

    What does this refusal tell you about their intentions to penalise polygamy in their state in any way? They won’t.

    We are going to have to protect the women and children of our own states. I for one would like to see Texas pass these protective laws, which would in effect make us a place of refuge for survivors. Get here with your kids and Texas will protect you.

    Even after SCOTUS’ Dred Scott decision, many states decided to thumb their noses at it, refusing to accept the non-personhood of blacks [thank g-d] and writing legislation into their state laws that countered the courts decision, and provided places of refuge for escaped slaves.

    As far as I’m concerened, as a humanist, we are going to come down to the same thing again. Only this time instead of being Slave state vs. Free state, it will be Concubine state vs. Free state.

  89. Texas wasn’t ready , nor did most texans know what was happening in the tiny town of El Dorado. For many Texans the first they had ever heard about Polygamy was when the raid happened. Then Texans as a whole were overwhelmed. I know there are texans who believe what CPS did was wrong, mainly because of their hatred of CPS in general. However, for ONCE CPS got it right!
    The propaganda image FLDS immediately pursued changed some Texans mind, as if big government was out to persecute the “poor” people. But as more evidence has come to light, more and more Texans are realizing this isn’t some “poor”group. These are people who are totally controlled, in a controlled enviroment, like Lab Rats! It has nothing to do with freedoms or these people couldn’t be controlled as they are. The hatred taught to little children in this group should also be against the law. Children shouldn’t be taught to fear people because of their race, or because they don’t follow the same controlled enviroment they have to tolerate.

  90. My friend Flora Jessop was down in Houston last month to speak to CPS workers based there. Two things about that meeting stood out for me.

    Several of the CPS staff were emotionally traumatized when they had to return the children to their parents, and said they quite literally had to physically push the children towards their parents who came to get them for reunification.

    The other emotional trauma experieced by CPS workers who are members of a minority, was the abusive language of a racist nature they had to endure, especially from the boys taken off the ranch.

    CPS was thrown under the proverbial bus for this one.

  91. CPS can’t deal with it and they don’t want to. Did you notice all the cases were non-suited? They don’t need legislation, they need a backbone and the stamina to see it through. That’s not likely going to happen until the information about FLDS practices is made known to the public and the public demands action.

  92. And it starts with a handful of dedicated individuals who are absolutely committed to bringing about positive change in this area. It will take a long time and it will be unbearably frustrating and demoralizing at times, but it’s begun and gaining momentum. It can’t happen in the shadows though – it won’t happen if the information never makes it’s way to the masses and that is he purpose of this website

  93. Cps was reigned in by the TOPIC guy! Patrick Crimmins and the other officals in CPS were going full force to see that each childs family circumstances were investigated…Albert Hawkins is the name of the TOP guy in DFPS, that’s where the stop gap came.

  94. oops the “TOP” guy

  95. i’ve never heard of albert hawkins. is he in austin? what’s his title?

  96. Albert Hawkins is the HEAD Guy of Department of Human Services,over all of it, including CPS.

  97. Executive Commissioner

  98. Texas Health and Human Services Executive Commissioner Albert Hawkins

  99. In January 2003, Gov. Rick Perry appointed Albert Hawkins to serve as the state’s health and human services executive commissioner. In this position, Hawkins heads the Health and Human Services Commission, which provides leadership and strategic direction to the health and human services system in Texas. The executive commissioner oversees the operations of the five health and human services agencies, comprised of about 45,000 employees working with a total annual budget of $25 billion.

  100. Hawkins is the recipient of numerous awards: Whitney M. Young Award, Austin Urban League, 2005; Outstanding Leadership Award, Austin Chapter of Blacks in Government, 2005; Bob Bullock Award for Outstanding Public Stewardship, 2004; Honorary Doctorate of Public Service, University of North Texas Health Science Center, 2004; Distinguished Alumnus, LBJ School of Public Affairs, 2001; Outstanding Texas Leader, John Ben Shepherd Forum, 1998; and Texas State Administrator of the Year 1998.

  101. but obviously this albert doesn’t want to stand in the trenches and fight for the abused children of the flds.

  102. I’m going to preface this by saying it is a rumor, and I have no proof, perhaps just a raging paranoia after having been working on this issue for years now, and seeing the invisible support of the establishment in Utah and Arizona come to the rescue of polygamist over and over.

    When everything started going sour with CPS in Texas, a source told me [again: rumor], that the pressure on Texas came from the U.S. HHS Secretary’s office.

    Check out where he is from, and what his faith is, for yourself.

    Regardless of who was in charge here in Texas, that sort of pressure could have been enormous.

    I haven’t been able to find another, better explanation, anyone else?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_O._Leavitt

  103. Whoa! I just noticed this annotation on the site as well:

    Himself a descendent of polygamists, Leavitt came under strong criticism in 1998, while Governor, when he defended polygamy by saying, “It might enjoy religious freedom.” He was later forced to backpedal and claimed that polygamy should be against the law.[3]

  104. The govenor of Texas Rick Perry appointed Albert Hawkins to his position in 2003. All Im saying is, The investigation was stopped quickly from someone with more authority than just CPS worker, or assistants.

  105. Well Son of a Bitch!! You right boots, levitt was Head of Health and Human Services till 2009!!!

  106. Yup from 2005 to 2009!!

  107. That makes sense! Rick Perry is seeking bigger and better things, just like Mark Shurtleff,, this certainly wouldn’t look good on either of their resumes.

  108. Yep, anyone who is ambitious to move up in the Republican party would have been under enormous career pressure. The future of their own political appointments could have been at risk if they bucked someone that high up on the pachyderm’s ladder.

    I’m just sayin’…

  109. What your saying makes perfect sense boots, don’t know why we didn’t catch it earlier….

  110. The tip came months ago. This is the first time I’ve ever spoken about it, though.

    I was reporter, and although hunches and gut feelings are helpful for the job, I try my darndest to stick to facts.

    The only reason I mentioned it here is because you, like me, have expressed so much frustration and are looking for an answer to “why”.

    That’s all I got, sugar, so I gave it to you.

  111. Well after crimmins resigned, gary banks resigned, and Jeff Schmidt resigned,, and of all people Charles Childress resigned, I knew there had to be a connection somewhere. The friggin HIGHER ups put a stop to it!! Those actually doing their JOBS were forced out, and that Pisses me off.

  112. Of course now the used to be governor of Arizona Janet Napaliano is on Obama’s payroll, and she did Squat about Polygamy in Arizona either…

  113. And people wonder why we anti-polygamy activists seem so “paranoid”.

    I keep trying to tell Texans that Utah and Arizona have a set pro-polygamy agenda, and that the corruption goes up to the very highest levels of power in the country.

    I’ll go straighten out the “HARD CORE TEXAN” magnet on the tail of my truck now.

  114. LOL Boots!!

  115. BTW, Napolitano [and you’re right, she did virtually nothing] is up for SCOTUS consideration.

    This is the same gal that considers returning vets a security threat, and said “There is nothing illegal persay about Mexicans crossing our border to live here”.

  116. Then we should all start a letter writing campagin to Obama, about what a fruitcake this woman is.

  117. I dunno, deputydog, he may be one of those rare people that actually has a taste for fruitcake.

  118. Interesting about Leavitt. I hadn’t heard that – but the order came from somewhere to pull out of the cases.

  119. I was just reading about Utah Governor Leavitt and the Utah Governor’s Mansion fire I think it was 1993.

  120. I don’t believe the sudden non-suiting of cases came first from hawkins, I believe it came from Leavitt,, since he was secretary of healh and human services for the whole united states.
    This would not only make Leavitt look bad, but the states of Utah and Arizona, who set back and did nothing for years.

  121. Look. This is Texas. Perry is Governor and I doubt he’d take kindly to intervention into Texas State’s Rights, given he told the federal government to shove it just recently.

  122. Many of you seem to be under the impression that CPS did something different with the FLDS cases. Perhaps someone can do some digging and find out the percentage of nonFLDS investigations lead to removals and the percentage of those removals that result in the termination of parental rights versus “non suited”

    And what percentage of those termination of parental rights were investigated by CPS versus police officers versus the Texas Rangers.

    What percentage were removed due to mental abuse, physical abuse, medical neglect or other neglect.

    What percentage of children returned to their parents are removed again in separate allegations. What percentage of CPS cases involve divorced parents.

    Many of you were drawn to this particular case and are making huge assumptions about what typically occurs in CPS cases. I really suggest you sit in a courtroom in Houston or Dallas and analyze what is going on. Most family lawyers want nothing to do with CPS cases for a reason.

    Child Advocates of Houston has a very good training program that can explain the rules to non lawyers. It is unfortunate but it does not appear all CASA programs are as equally up to par.

  123. me, I’ve set in on CPS cases, several times. Ive also been a juror in two child abuse cases, one which had resulted in death of the child.
    I will NEVER be a juror in one again, if I have to leave the country! What some parents do to their children, If possible and I were a judge, Id give them the death penalty.
    No one has ever said CPS always gets it right, and CASA programs are run exactly alike all over the state of Texas. You don’t have to be a lawyer when as a juror you are shown picture of cigerrette burn on a 9month old’s genitiles, nor do you have to be a lawyer when shown a baby who was thrown Up against a wall with its head crushed.
    Ive set in CPS cases where CPS has phyical evidence of a toddler with a torn rectum from a mothers boyfriend having sex with the baby,, and although the boyfriend was convicted, the Judge gave the mother back the toddler…
    It happens everyday, and yes some cases shouldn’t have taken place, but the ones that happen far outweigh the ones they are innocent.

  124. Unfortunately what happened in the FLDS case is not unusual for CPS. There is often little rhyme or reason to the cases in which they pursue termination and the cases in which they nonsuit or implement a family service plan. At times, minor violations of a service plan will trigger CPS to seek termination and other times total noncompliance will simply result in a nonsuit. It is not based on what is best for the children. CASA programs vary from place to place too. Most are good programs with great volunteers, some are not.

  125. I don’t think the directive came from Leavitt unless Hawkins has aspirations beyond Texas, and he’s doing favors for the feds. I don’t think so. I do think the decision to nonsuit and walk away came from Hawkins. It wasn’t from the new DFPS commissioner because she came in late in the game. It wasn’t from the old commissioner, Cockrell, because he left right after the rescue. I can’t imagine that the interim commissioner, Delgado, had that kind of pull or sway — although i think Delgado and Hawkins made decisions together and put the plan into place.

    This is just a guess. I sure would like to know.

  126. Perhaps we are forgetting the obvious, maybe it came from govenor perry! It’s possible, especially after some of the remarks he made

  127. I don’t think it came from the governor. I think his underlings made the decisions and briefed him after the fact.

  128. Anonymous you could be right, however, you have to understand how politicians work. When the raid happened, all of Texas was stunned, and glad that children who were being abused in such manner were going to be protected.
    But, when the media from FLDS started (lies) then every politician in this state began thinking about the elected office they hold.

    Perry wants to run for Congress, if there is the slightest black mark on his record, chances are he won’t be elected. Just as Mark Shurtleff has separated himself from this issue to run for the senate, Perry has done the same thing.

  129. I wish I knew. I just don’t think Perry is that hands on. He is not a decision-maker.

  130. It appears that Nocturnal Anon is now using the handle “Audrey” in the above post – and I suggest its removal, lest any reader think that we approve of “brutalizing” or “raping” anyone.

  131. It reads like a Duane posting so he can then come on as himself (can’t has been banned) and point to the utter hatred people have FLDS.

    I agree S. it should be removed troll behavior

  132. I agree with S that the post by Audrey Sept. 2. 1:48am should be deleted. It may be premature to ban her/him/it, but if similar posts from that address are received a ban may be warranted.

  133. Certainly looks like a Duane posting, I would agree.

  134. Done – Admin

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