Open Discussion

Open discussion of FLDS -related issues


~ by FLDS TEXAS on April 9, 2009.

485 Responses to “Open Discussion”

  1. I’ll kick it off with this interesting item in today’s news:

    Strangely, the victim of the first fiery vehicle incident, Lorin Fischer, also worked with troubled youths. And his father, Dan Fischer, started a foundation himself. In recent years it battled the FLDS polygamy group on behalf of FLDS outcasts known as “The Lost Boys”.

    Does that tie Fischer’s death by fire to Greg’s?

    “Most definitely, there’s got to be a tie. He has worked with youth for years,” Nelson said. “I know in many of the documents that I’ve read of Gregory’s, it does discuss polygamy, probably a dozen times, and his concern with what’s happening to women and children,” she said.

  2. I was going to post that too. I suspect we will get fresh news oftne on ksl on this story (not reported on the trib – yet)

    THANKS for adding it here

    What concerns me is the lack of LE action in Utah that allowed this to not only happen but looking forward continue to happen.

    What do utahns do? Carry weapons everywhere? Lawlessness will begat anarchy I fear. Too bad for Shurtleff, he let this nonsense fester on his watch now he has a real mess he is responsible for.

    What say you, Governor John Huntsman?

  3. What’s that saying?
    If there is smoke, there is fire?
    It may take some time, but a good coroner or medical University can determine of death occurred before the fire.

  4. I posted a follow-up to the Utah deaths on my blog, if anyone is interested.

  5. Utah doesn’t want to know if the deaths are related, because they actually have to investigate a problem , AG shurtleff has put on the back burner remember?
    Personally, I think the US attorney’s office should investigate UTAH law inforcement.

  6. TxBluesMan’s post is excellent.

    I thought these deaths were due to a straightforward drug war but this is a bizarre twist that undermines that theory.

    I have believed from the first that the Texas Governor’s Mansion fire was related to the FLDS.

    I wonder if this open-discussion thread could end up impossibly unwieldy with all the traffic you’re getting. But let’s see what happens. I love your blog, you know.

  7. What on EARTH???

  8. I wouldn’t get too concerned. CPS is not in charge of the criminal investigation.

    I would not be surprised to see Teresa facing a warrant for Tampering with Physical Evidence or some other charge.

    LE still wants to go after the baby’s father.

  9. if teresa’s baby was born in a hospital, there will be a birth record for it. hospitals do that.

  10. But then, both of these guys also had a history of drug problems and this Gregory Nelson was in deep financial trouble so it may very well be drug related after all.

  11. i for one would like to know who belongs to whom. i was reading through the dictations and have about 35 wives for warren. it seems he has more than wendell who was made famous for having 21 or so when the bishop’s list came out. seems there wasn’t a listing made public for warren and merril.

  12. Also, wouldn’t the FLDS choose much bigger fish to fry than these guys?

  13. maybe they are starting small

  14. FLDS HATE Dan Fischer, and Im assuming any family members who left with him, how better to get back at a man, whom they hate.
    They have made very public both in person and at the senate hearings, and on that trashy site TruthWillPrevail how he is hated. These people have NO loyalty to even their own family members which makes them a very SCARY group!!!

  15. Indeed, DD, much more painful to loose a child, any parent out there (well OK any decent parent) will tell you they would rather die than loose a child.

  16. Absolutely ladysadie, and being burned to death is horrible, unless the two men were already dead when their cars were set on fire.

  17. Well golly, if they were going to “whack” Dan Fishers’ son to sow terror amongst their enemies, why would they not claim responsibility so as to leave no doubt that drug dealers weren’t behind the killings? I mean really, if you are using murder as a form of terror, you want to make sure everybody knows who did it.

    If you are trying to hide your involvement, you would want to take out those who have done the most damage. These guys were barely associated with the antiplyg crusade.

  18. Everyone seems to have forgotten that the published Bishop’s list is only a portion of the whole list, either all of the list is yet being compiled and or it is evidence to a trial. Wendell Musser was a caretaker of some of Warren Jeffs’ wives in Colorado and he gave 180 plural wives as the total figure. So, where are all of them kept and cared for is even more revealing of the scope and breadth of abuse that is hidden. Speaking of hidden, just how many total “Houses of Hiding” are there in total and how many are in Canada/Mexico, where your rights as American citizen(s) have been denied to you?

  19. A legislative committee in Austin, Texas has scheduled an April 14 hearing to
    examine the raid on the Fundamentalist LDS Church’s YFZ Ranch.

    The Texas State Legislature’s Human Services Committee will hear testimony on
    the state’s response to allegations of abuse at the YFZ Ranch, setting the stage
    for a highly anticipated inquiry into how the custody case involving the
    Utah-based polygamous sect was handled.

    “We will be there,” FLDS spokesman Willie Jessop said of the hearing.

  20. Well I hope some of the CASA workers, and lawyers who were involved in this case go to the hearings and put what abuses occured in FLDS communitiy. Instead of CPS throwing in the towel when the going got rough.

  21. Are you kidding duane? You must be kidding! Lorin Fischer was brought up in Flds. He was no longer on drugs. Greg Nelson worked with abused young people. Why wouldn’t they know or meet each other. Greg Nelson was setting up a foundation, called Truth and Light. This all agree’s with what xflds have been saying all along. Some of the men who were excommunicated , were told, DO NOT communicate with apostates. Now we know why.

  22. Since this is an open thread, I thought I would post this here. k.Dee over at the new AAAP website has put up a blog post about concerns surrounding the large number of child deaths and the Colorado City/Hildale cemetaries:

    I’m curious to know what you all think about that.

  23. Glens ex wife found burned rope left by LE at teh scene.

  24. That figures Neener, LE suck in Utah!!!

  25. Hello. I guess this does qualify for interest in open discussion. We can leave the open thread up as long as interest persists. I have not had a chance to read comments or news but look forward to doing so this evening.

  26. Someone said Oprah is doing a show tomorrow on the Flds topic anyone know for sure?

  27. DD, If you go to then where it says “This week on Oprah” click on Friday, then play the preview video. She is doing a live from Chicago show and Carolyn Jessop will be on it.

  28. The preview says “reactions to her visit to the ranch”.

  29. Wonder if Oprah does callin’s on her live shows? Anyone know?

  30. ladysadie – she does some skype, but i think that’s all prearranged.

  31. Thank you ladysadie

  32. james taylor is on oprah too and i love him. must see tv.

  33. Medvecky is trying to explain the bed in the temple:

    Once again,

    There is a room and a bed in the Temple that was used by the Temple janitor. There are also cribs and beds in the Temple used for babies to sleep in and if an adult gets ill. This is standard practice at most churches. Look closely and you’ll find them in your church.

    The picture released by the goons to taint the Jury pool is not of a bed at all. It is a Catafalque. It was used twice, for Merril Jessop’s wife who died, and for a 2 year old who was killed on the Ranch in an auto accident. Both had their funerals in the Temple, both were reposed on the Catafalque, and both were buried on the Ranch.

    I’m sorry to dash the sexual fantasies of the FLDS haters, but take a good look at the Catafalque, and find another way to pleasure yourselves.

  34. Medvecky is in need of help.

    Uh … it wasn;t Merril’s wife who died and they sure did not have the funerals in the Temple.

    I don’t know if it was used for sex or not but if I was a betting man ,I’d put money on it.

    This bed was built to Warren’s exact specifications in his dictations. Whatever the bed was for, there was a need for a plastic sheet or covering to protect it from being soiled.

  35. not only wasn’t it merril’s wife, the child was 3, not 2.

  36. First of all, it was Warren Jeff’s wife and she was NEVER in that temple. He talks in detail in his dictations about how Barbara died, how she was taken to a mortuary in San Angelo to be imbalmed, and they put her an apartment on the ranch for viewing.
    ELDORADO, Texas – A 3-year-old boy was killed and another child was injured Thursday when a minivan they were riding in crashed on a ranch owned by polygamist sect led by Warren Jeffs.

    Allen Rulon Jeffs was pronounced dead at a local hospital, and 3-year-old Richard Rulon Jeffs was in critical condition Thursday night. Isaac Steed Jeffs Jr., 3, and the driver, Barbara Joy Jessop, were treated and released, the San Angelo Standard-Times reported Friday. The little boy was killed 10/28/06 and temple wasn’t even completed inside yet.

  37. LOL, yeah Bill is to be trusted for accuracy… Ask him about the Air Force Attack Blackhawk helicopter that terrorized the FLDS…

  38. It was not for funerals, it is plainly a bed to have hot wild sex with taut, nubile, and perky underage brides.

  39. meat beater, No one knows for sure what the bed is for, but we know it wasnt on the ground floor, and Im assuming in funerals everyone who is related to the person, is involved in the funeral, the room isn’t big enough for 100 people, and certainly not 700 people.

  40. Two items:
    1. Obviously Bill M is uninformed about flds matters. Also obvious is that his agressive bombastic style is at odds with the gentle picked upon, we just want to be left alone to follow our religion posture of the flds. It appears to me that some of the flds are distancing themselves from him and Hugh M.

    2. I think the old doctrine of blood atonement actually required the shedding of blood. If that was what happened to the Fischer and Nelson boys; whoever did it got it wrong. I once heard that was why Utah had execution by shooting squad . The infamous Gary Gilmore was executed by firing squad at the Utah State Prison in 1977.

  41. alchemist you could be right, but remember Warren made up his rules as he went along.

  42. Catafalques don’t have mattresses. They hold caskets, or less typically, an uncasketed corpse. Here is a famous image of a body on a catafalque, that of Pope John Paul II lying in state at St. Peter’s.

    (Pope John Paul, I think it’s a terrible injustice to mention you in the same paragraph as that evil poseur Warren Steed Jeffs. Understand that I mean no disrespect in doing so.)

  43. i’m waiting for the lawsuit he’s filing in june.

  44. alchemist –

    I think you’re right about many FLDS distancing themselves from BillM. I do not think he has a direct source at the Ranch because his information in the last couple of months is so bad and wrong it’s not coming from anyone who really knows. Examples: many of his posts about Teresa Steed were just flat out wrong, same thing with posts about Merrianne. He was not getting good intel about what was happening in Court, seems like it was mostly just guesswork and often wrong.

    The other day he posted that William Sunderland Jessop died of a stress related stroke. That’s flat out false. Will S. died in an “accident” from a high powered, high temperature steamer that scalded him to death. Stroke? What’s BillM smoking?

    His whole rant about SANE exams is completely wrong too, but I think he knows that and puts out that misinformation intentionally.

  45. Which lawsuit he’s filing in June? That sounds like a good time.

  46. against the state of texas for saying that he was going to kidnap Merianne.

  47. i’m hoping he files it in san angelo so i can get a front row seat

  48. so are the SANE examinations he’s saying various boys had not true?

    i’m actually hoping at least one of them files a civil lawsuit because the material asked for in discovery will be a gold mine. they just thought the LE hauled off boxes of stuff. wait until they get a civil lawyer asking for everything including the kitchen sink.

  49. If anyone had any brains, just looking at this picture makes it obvious that the only reason this bed was there was to deflower young underage virgins. The FLDS people are utterly disgusting. They lie, cheat, brainwash, rape virgins in perverted sex rituals, murder babies, molest children, infringe on copyrights, and lately they are burning innocent victimes alive in a spectacular show of fiery blood atonement.
    They are nothing but a race of pure unadulaterated inbred savages. The FLDS are worse than a coven of witches and morlocks who worship Satan.

    That bed had plastic to prevent the copious amounts of blood from squirting out on the walls, carpet, and fabric. That is why forsenics coulnd’t find any traces of blood spatter. They are very thorough in covering up their henious crimes against humanity and all that America stands for. They are truly an evil abberation that has defiled everything that is good and decent in Western society.

  50. If anyone had any brains, just looking at this picture makes it obvious that the only reason this bed was there was to deflower young underage virgins. The FLDS people are utterly disgusting. They lie, cheat, brainwash, rape virgins in perverted sex rituals, murder babies, molest children, infringe on copyrights, and lately they are burning innocent victimes alive in a spectacular show of fiery blood atonement.
    They are nothing but a race of pure unadulaterated inbred savages. The FLDS are worse than a coven of witches and morlocks who worship Satan.

    That bed had plastic to prevent the copious amounts of blood from squirting out on the walls, carpet, and fabric. That is why forsenics coulnd’t find any traces of blood spatter. They are very thorough in covering up their henious crimes against humanity and all that America stands for. They are truly an evil abberation that has defiled everything that is good and decent in Western society.

  51. Warren Jeffs Instructing Child Brides on Marriage.

  52. Bill’s getting a little testy

    he boy who died was not Issac’s son, he was a Rohbock.
    Unless the Ranch is lying to me, which they have no reason to do, the Catafalque was used for both funerals.

    I showed them your comment about the Temple not being built yet. It was not completely finished, but it was used for parts of both ceremonies as they originally told me.

    If you have any documentation to the contrary, I’ll be happy to post it and issue an apology.

    He’s admitting that the child who died isn’t Isaac’s kid. That’s more than the ranch does since they denied the father the right to attend the funeral.

  53. By the way, I do not believe that blood atonement was a regular part of the curriculum and I do not believe that it was being carried out as part of the religious practices of the group or of Warren Jeffs even. I think there might have been a time or two that Warren strongly suggested that a person be taken care of in a rather permanent way…but I don’t think there was any kind of ritual killing. I think it’s quite possible Warren was working his way up to it, but I don’t think he had quite gotten there yet.

  54. Temple janitor … that slays me!!

    If the FLDS are truly communicating with Bill they are selling him a bill of goods and he is swallowing it whole. They’re having some fun with him, and they’ve found the perfect mouthpiece — he’ll regurgitate whatever tales they spin and they can sit back and laugh at a distance. Keep it up, Bill! They’re not laughing with you, they’re laughing at you.

  55. Flds Texas: I also do not believe that blood atonment was practiced by the flds. There were cases where Warren asked the congregation to pray for the demise of an “enemy”, but I am not aware of any actual acts of murder or blood atonement carried out by the flds.

  56. If the FLDS are truly communicating with Bill they are selling him a bill of goods and he is swallowing it whole.

    Bill has never been overly bright…

  57. If the FLDS are truly communicating with Bill they are selling him a bill of goods and he is swallowing it whole. They’re having some fun with him, and they’ve found the perfect mouthpiece — he’ll regurgitate whatever tales they spin and they can sit back and laugh at a distance. Keep it up, Bill! They’re not laughing with you, they’re laughing at you.
    Can you imagine their horror that Bill told the world that the child that died wasn’t Isaac’s.

  58. according to warren’s dictations, the temple janitors are his wives and other members of the group. temple janitor isn’t one custodian per say, its different people for each floors.

  59. Did Willie get an invitation to testify at the hearing in Austin on April 14, or not? Likely not.

  60. Biologically it wasn’t issac’s son, It was Ron Rohbock’s son. And he wasn’t allwed to go to his own son’s funeral because was as FLDS say “apostate”. Sick Sick people!!!

  61. dd – i realize it isn’t biiologically isaac’s son, but he is claiming it and had changed the child’s name to jeffs from rohbock. the newspaper article in the edlorado success names the child as allen rulon jeffs. it was the flds who gave the name of the child to the paper.

  62. Well of course they did anonymous, they LIED like they have so many times LIED. Just add it to the LONG list of lies. Some of these people’s names have been changed 6 or 7 times, not just last names, but first names. LIES, and DECEPTION!

  63. i agree dd. i was reading the dictation where he changed Merril’s daughter Esther’s kids first and last names. She had been married to Arthur Barlow and he married her off to himself and changed her 5 kids first and last names.

  64. There ought to be a law against changing children’s names when their biological fathers are exed and they are reassigned to new families. That would make it much easier for us to keep track of who murdered who.

    There also ought to be a law against churches excommuncating members without a regulatory board in charge of overseeing churches and cults, giving approval only after an extensive panel review and testimony by all who are involved.

  65. I agree rattle. If I wanted to change my name , I would have to legally apply to do that. Im wondering how these people get social security cards? You can’t just change your name with social security.

  66. I doubt there has been any need for social security numbers while the children have been living at YFZ. No one has applied for government assistance to my knowledge. I could be wrong but that is what I am guessing. If there have been applications for assistance such as food stamps, etc., I bet the mothers are using the children’s original names for children not born on the ranch. (I hope that made sense).

  67. Regarding the changing of names: Warren allegedly stated that when a child is assigned to a new father (priesthood holder), the child’s DNA will be miraculously changed to match that of the new father. If they really believe that changing the names makes sense. Personally, I think this just another of warren’s delusions.

  68. I think fire ants are the perfect analogy to plyg scum.
    Fire ants are nasty pests who like to sting just like plygs. If you destroy or smush out one nest of fire ants, they just scurry off and build another, and another. This is what the plygs do, they have a huge “nest” in Short Creek, another big one in Eldorado. Now they have been scurrying off and building nests in Westcliffe and Mancos Colorado, Custer County S.D., Idaho, Nevada, and who knows where else. This a big problem, how will we ever eradicate the plyg pests? I mean even if we were burn down the YFZ temple and torch the place, what is to prevent them from scurrying off and building another Temple. If we find it and burn it down, they will just build another. They are spreading out more and more, we have to stop them before its too late. I think the Federal Government should get involved, form an anti-plyg agency, educate the people on how to identify plygs and the tell-tale signs they are moving into your neck of the woods to build another nest. Only through dedicated effort and constant vigilance, will we hope to eradicate polygamy and rid of the plygs once and for all.

    You hear that you Plygs!!!! You can run, but you can’t hide!! We will get you!!!

  69. The search for a missing Holladay woman ended Sunday when her body was found in a remote portion of southeastern Idaho.

    Campers spotted Michelle Erickson’s body near her red Pontiac Grand Am on a dirt road in Walker Creek, an area 25 miles south of Pocatello, around 11:30 a.m. Inside the car, police found charcoal lighter fluid, prescription drugs, a letter and photographs of Erickson’s children, said Bannock County Sheriff Lorin Nielsen.

    “Everything at the scene was consistent with suicide,” he said. “We’re investigating it as a suicide unless something else comes up.”

    The discovery marked the heartbreaking end of a family’s and community’s search for the 36-year-old mother of two.

    On the night of June 9, Erickson bought groceries at a WalMart in the Fort Union area and made arrangements with her former stepson to cut his hair. That was the last time family members heard from her.

    Erickson, who owned her own home cleaning business, failed to show up for an appointment June 11. That was followed by a call from her ex-husband, with whom family members said she was still on good terms, after she did not show up to cut his son’s hair as planned.
    On June 12, family members and Erickson’s landlord entered her Holladay apartment. Shortly after, they filed a missing person report with the Salt Lake County Sheriff’s Office.

    But a full-blown investigation was not launched because family members were not sure if Erickson decided to meet her parents and son and daughter, ages 12 and 13, for a family vacation at Lake Powell.

    When her parents returned to Salt Lake without her, a full investigation was launched.

    Family members said Erickson suffered from depression in the past, but they were unaware of any recent problems.

    Police said Erickson used a credit card to purchase charcoal lighter fluid in Downey, Idaho, on June 10. That may have been the day she died, Nielsen said . Erickson appeared to have been dead for 10-12 days, police said.

    A coroner planned to examine the woman’s body today, police said.,5143,700237131,00.html

    printed June 2008

  70. Okay, is that weird or what? She was burned to death to in 2008 and the sheriff just happened to be named LORIN NIELSON. And the young man burned to death in his car was LORIN FISCHER.

  71. those that have driver’s licenses have it in their original father’s name. an example is janet jeffs who became the daughter of wendell nielsen when her father leroy was exiled. she’s also plurally married to one or the other of merril’s boys (first ernest and then raymond, i think) but her texas driver’s license is in the name of janet jeffs.

    my question would be getting the social security number or driver’s license if you don’t have a birth certificate. the children who were born on the ranch didn’t have their birth recorded so there is no birth certificate on file.

  72. dd- that’s pretty weird. It doesnt say how she died, though.

  73. anon – Many of the kids born at the Ranch or in Texas do have birth certificates.

  74. Carolyn Jessop is on Oprah today. I think this is somewhat of a rebuttal to Oprah’s Ranch show last week or whenever. Somebody tape it – I can’t watch it.

  75. She was burned flds texas she was outside her car, but her car and she were burned to death. They considered it suicide, just like the three in the last month.

  76. ooops. no she wasn’t burned,,, sorry, but she was found outside her car dead.

  77. well Schliecher County had 120 births recorded since the FLDS moved in and according to the county clerk only one birth from the ranch. so where did they register them?

  78. flds texas, i’m watching oprah, but can’t tape it.

  79. bill’s take on william sunderland’s death
    William Jessop died of a brain seizure (Stroke). He was prone to seizures after an automobile accident when he hit his head. He was working in the cow barn steam cleaning at the time, and hit his head on some equipment when he fell. The fall killed him, not the scalding.

  80. Check this out from ABC

  81. i hope that carolyn points out to oprah that betty flat out lied to her about not knowing of any underage marriages.

  82. yeah anonymous I watched that video the night it was shown.

  83. i don’t watch much commercial tv so this was the first i knew of it.

  84. Anonymous, Carolyn didn’t have to point out to Oprah that Betty lied, Oprah flat out stated before she even brought Carolyn on:

    “I liked Betty but I did NOT believe Betty”

  85. i just saw that. oprah is just now on here. hearing oprah’s take on the visit is good. she didn’t believe willie’s bs.

  86. It’s amazing to me the first part of oprah, they talked about yesterdays show on teaching girl’s about their own body’s sexuality. Gail, Oprah’s best friend was very uncomfortable with that and even argued with oprah about it, Then when the topic changed to FLDS, Gail says, Well I was very judgemental about this group, but if it’s their way, its their way,,, So, Gail is saying Okay, Im not comfortable with sexuality of a girl’s own body, but if you want to give your daughter away to some old coot to have sex with it’s OKAY???

  87. i think she was talking about richard jessop and his 3 wives, not marrying underage girls.

  88. nearthecreek said this on April 10, 2009 at 6:09 PM

    Perhaps up at the crik the only use for social security numbers is to get acctss to taxpayer resources. To the rest of un in the US that’s not the way it’s done, all babies are registered with SS# and have been for generations. My generation now, we didn’t get one until we went to work and got taxes taken out of our paychecks, but SS didn’t begin until 1936.

  89. exactly grannytoad. the hospital sent in the information for my son’s social security number before we had even come home.


  91. in reading about lisa ling’s interview and visit to the ranch, seth jeffs says he’s got 7 wives and 19 children. i’m 5 wives and 10 children short. the only wives i’ve got are kathryn walls who has 7 kids and sarah alyne nicholson who has 2. anyone got any more than that?

  92. I could use about 3. 1 to do floors and dusting, another for dishes and windows, and #3 could do laundry and shampoo the dog. My husband and I both like to cook.

  93. Shoot Granny, I got a maid for all that, at the end of the day I just send her home and don’t have to share my man with her. She’s cheaper than another wife too.

  94. Great idea.

  95. I don’t think I will watch oprah again. Today was a Farce as far as im concerned!! And her best friend gayle is a total idioit.

  96. Just watched that abc video – what would you do. That was moving. I’m surprised that did not get more publicity. It was wonderful to see that people were willing to help. Four out of 100 — not such great odds, but there was not one coming to the defense of the polygamists.

  97. bill’s take on william sunderland’s death
    William Jessop died of a brain seizure (Stroke). He was prone to seizures after an automobile accident when he hit his head. He was working in the cow barn steam cleaning at the time, and hit his head on some equipment when he fell. The fall killed him, not the scalding.


    Bill’s a liar. And even in his explanation he changed his story from stroke related to stress … to hit his head on equipment.

  98. well Schliecher County had 120 births recorded since the FLDS moved in and according to the county clerk only one birth from the ranch. so where did they register them?
    Anonymous said this on April 10, 2009 at 8:21 PM (edit)


    I stand corrected.

  99. flds texas – i think there were births registered before they came to eldorado, but most of those born on the ranch have no record of birth or at least not one recorded in the county clerk’s office. that being the case, they couldn’t legally marry when they are of age because it requires a birth certificate to get a marriage license or at least it used to.

  100. most children from schliecher county families are born in tom green county and that’s one reason for the low number. the other is that schliecher county is a small rural county. their high school is 1A which is the smallest designation available.

  101. Killed ‘imself in a dairy milking barn did he. Been in those a bunch of times so it’s real hard to imagine him trying to steam clean his brain or dental work or whatever that was supposed to be.

  102. I’ve puzzled out an answer why FLDS may not register births with Social Security. They don’t want to be registering births to underaged mothers, and atop that, the mothers need to have been registered also.

    So to register some … but not account for all or most others would eventually bring about an unwanted inquiry. A HUGE unwanted inquiry.

    Waaaaaay bigger than the YFZ indentification inquiry.

  103. Texas law requires physician and midwives to register births, but the penalty for not doing so is only a Class C misdemeanor (basically a ticket, fine of up to $500, no jail time). It is not something that has traditionally been a high enforcement priority, although the various boards may take a strong view on it (which I doubt).

  104. TBM

    What is the penalty for hiding your child fathered by a child molester?

    I hope that matter isnt dropped.

    Another thought came to me, it may be a FD baby, and since no one is counting these in UT /AZ do ya think TX will?

  105. PS my avatar is a wordpress muffin head, badly abused.

  106. It reminds me of all the FLDS when they have that “REVELATION” that Warren sold them down the river.


  107. when asked about registering births, drew darby said there wasn’t a law that required that births be registered, but that he planned on introducing one in the next legislative session. i don’t know if he was referring to the fact that the penalty was not strong enough or what.

    from what i understand, the officials in schliecher county were lead to believe that there were only a total of 100 or so people on the ranch. i think that helped create the mess because CPS and LE weren’t prepared for 400+ children when they were expecting about 100 children and adults combined.

  108. Slightly off topic but somewhat related – I know that in Utah, births and deaths of stillborn children are not required to be registered. If it were required, we might know more about the death statistics in Hildale/Colorado City.

  109. i just looked at the Texas Health and Safety Code Section 192 and it says that births must be registered. i guess its just one more law that the FLDS think they are above.

  110. On Short Creek they’ve never bothered with legality much when it comes to saying what anyone died of or anything else to do with birthing, death or burying. FLDS is the law, not the US nor any US State.

    About a month back, Lying Willie’s Good Neighbor Tour led him to try to rehab Schleicher County TEXAS into what he expected it should be, that FLDS money buys the law and political representation. I can’t believe he did that.

  111. I have an avatar but don’t know how to get it onto here.

  112. Maybe TxBluesMan can help with this — I think there’s a law about having assisted births or unassisted births. If the law requires physicians and midwives to register the births, what if you have an unassisted birth and there is no physician or midwife present? Maybe that has something to do with why Warren got so bent out of shape when Sally Jeffs consulted Dr Barlow when Janet Jeffs was having such difficulty giving birth, having been in difficult labor for three days.

  113. I guess if your child is born at home with a midwife, they expect you to register the birth. But all hospitals in Texas DO register a child when it is born. You have to have your birth certificate in Texas now just to get a social security card.

  114. yeah granny – a good laugh was had by all after willie’s visit. he doesn’t even live in the county, so why should they listen to him?

  115. and you have to have a social security number for each child to list them on your tax return. wouldn’t you love to see some of the ranch tax returns. it would take several front pages to list all the dependents.

  116. here’s a question. Jacob Leonard Jessop, Jr. used to be a Barlow, so was he Jacob Leonard Barlow, Jr and just kept the Jr. part when he became a Jessop? Given that he married Sarah Monique Jessop, there’s a possibility that he married his sister given Warren’s mandate that DNA changed to the new father’s DNA when families were reassigned.

  117. Trust me Anon, if Warren Said So, then it ain’t so.

  118. In Texas, midwives are licensed, either by the DSHS or the Nursing Board, and have to report births. Currently, there are no licensed midwives in Schleicher and only 3 in Tom Green county.

  119. That doesn’t take into consideration that FLDS members may have been illegally operating as a midwife.

  120. That’s just it, TBM, they don’t operate on US or any State’s laws. Is there a US flag in the wind high on a pole there at YFZ? Do you think those children know the Pledge of Allegiance? Did you see the disdain for Texas on Merril and WIllie’s faces in those court photos?

  121. LOL, well wait until they show up at the Lege on Tuesday and expect to testify…

    Sorry Willie, only invitees…

  122. Willie is such a hoot. He’ll back up to a wall somewhere for a photo op followed by a claim that he held a press conference and release that he delivered such & such ultimatum or statement and word it as it this happened in some context he thinks sounds Important. (Look around – is that the mens’ or ladies’ washroom?)

  123. somehow i don’t think willie got an invite to the party on the 14th.

  124. wonder if bill m is waiting for his invite.

  125. I really doubt Willie Jessop was invited anywhere. He might Bully his way in to be able to take a observation seat away from an old woman, but he wasn’t invited.

  126. It would be great to see Bill M carried out in a straight jacket! LOL

  127. William Sunderlund Jessop was in car accident several years back, but he wasn’t hurt. Now, if he had seizures, why was he permitted to even drive??? A friend of mine has seizures, and she can’t get a driver’s license because of that.

  128. she probably didn’t follow wsj’s creed of lie about everything.

  129. I would really like to see some more detail on this business of not requiring birth certificates in Texas or Utah. The United States has birthright or ‘jus soli’ citizenship, which means our citizenship derives from being born here. It seems to me that a person born without a birth certificate cannot be a citizen.

    If that is indeed the law in Texas and Utah, it should be changed immediately. The possibility of concealing crime is just too great.

    Many years ago I knew someone who delivered a baby at home. The infant died shortly after birth. The couple cremated the corpse. No birth or death certificates were issued. Did they kill that infant? How can we ever know?

  130. I wonder if Hugh McBryde is really serious about getting donations to finance a change in the Vermont laws or if this is some scam where he gets donations to buy a Harley or something.
    He has $560.00 so far. Big deal. What he really needs to do is to get a life.

  131. New post:

  132. I misspoke in an early post when I said that births in Utah do not have to be recorded. All live births are required to be recorded. See

    And – apparently I was wrong when I said stillbirths were not required to be registered either.

    I did some research into this a few years ago. Guess I should have checked my facts again before I posted here.

    I wonder if one could find out how many still borns have been registered in Hildale through an FOIA request?

    I’ll find out about Arizona law and post my findings as well.

  133. Wow – AZ requires death certificates be filed for stillbirths and also requires that a fetal death certificate be filed for any deceased fetus over 20 weeks gestation.

    Hmmm. Given the suspicions about the large number of child deaths in CC/Hildale, it would definitely be interesting to know more about the numbers of death certificates recorded in each state.

    For more info check out

  134. Are there really a proportionately large number of child deaths? I first heard of this issue down at the creek years ago but was more stunned at the causes given – for instance little children drowned and run over by vehicles. Those two causes alone seemed WRONG to me. If the numbers seemed disproportionate I suppose I’ve forgotten about that over time. I also back then hadn’t heard of Fumarase Deficiency. I did hear of the horrifying pet cemetery for babies.

    The other most outstanding issue about these necessarily inbred polygamist cults in Utah is the shocking incidence of inherited clinically diagnosed/able Paranoid Schizophrenia.

  135. Are there active oil rigs pumping on YFZ?

  136. Had trouble posting on this thread a while ago. Let’s try it again.

  137. Ahhhh… it works

    Anyway, GT, I did look at the Arizona vital statistics data as mentioned on AAAP. There are a disproportionate number of child and infant deaths in the FLDS communities compared to other communities.

  138. I see the YFZ Ranch got a new gate for Oprah. Just now noticed that, LOL.

  139. no granny to my knowledge there isn’t any oil being pumped at the yfz. if there were, people would be able to come and go from the property on a daily basis.

  140. *grin* It’s why I asked, you smarty. I wondered if there were royalties coming in too, but I could have found that online probably.

    OK, what about that little YFZ cemetery? What about 8AM-5PM daily access?

  141. flds texas – could you start a thread called warren’s wives or something like that. it said in the newspaper article that he had 53 and i don’t have near that many on my list and was hoping people could help each other with names or adding last names to the list cuz i have some first names from the dictation but no last name.

  142. Historians and genealogists sometimes have to deal with cranky folks getting onto private cemeteries for surveys and cleaning, whether they’ve changed hands a time or few or not. We try to keep ’em happy pretty much ’cause we don’t like being shot at. There are still some old outlaws back in them thar hills from time to time, you could say.

  143. i’d have to look at the warranty deed to see if yfz even got any royalty when they bought the land. most people usually keep the minerals for themselves. it would be a thought to contact whomever holds the mineral rights to see if they could find someone interested in drilling. mineral rights supercede the surface rights and surface owners have to give mineral owners a right of way for drilling purposes.

    to the best of my knowledge no one from the outside has asked to be able to have access to the cemetery. maybe someone should take some flowers and request access to put them on the little boy’s grave on behalf of his biological father.

  144. granny – i have a great-great (or more) uncle who was killed in the marion riots in mississippi. the people who bought the land from his father finally had a historical marker put up on the edge of the property and claimed that was the spot where john was buried. rumor is that they were tired of people wanting access to the grave and so they filed the paperwork with the mississippi historical commission and got it all approved and when they came to put up the marker, conveniently it was at the edge of the property right by the road.

  145. From what I know, YFZ doesn’t own the mineral rights, it would be funny to see a big oil rig right next to the Temple.
    Erect a bunch of rigs and stink up the place.

  146. If true, this is a bummer, taken from Texas polygamy blog

    “Secondly, the mineral rights on the ranch are divided up among several heirs of previous owners. The man who sold the ranch sold the mineral rights he owned which included executive rights, meaning that even though the YFZ doesn’t own anywhere close to the majority of the mineral rights beneath their land, they control them with the executive rights.”

    I guess we need to find another way to harass them.

  147. I doubt pumpjacks would stink the place up. I recall once waking to their metallic workday sound one morn and watching a pair of scissortails tending a nest of scissortail children on it as it went up and down. They seem like faeries in flight.

  148. I’d always heard that SO2 was the smell of money.

  149. executive rights can be beaten in court.

  150. it is the smell of money and it will make a large racket and lots of mess to have a drilling rig on the property.

    i’ll see if i can find the title opinion darby did when the land was bought or if he didn’t do one, if one has been done on that particular tract.

  151. I’d seen a description of what I assumed were RUSTY pumpjacks but those people either lie or exaggerate or don’t know what they’re talking about anything, so thought I would ask about production. Production is easily found online, but who gets proceeds of producing wells is another project. I didn’t bother to look because the County didn’t tax FLDS any production, but that doesn’t tell me that someone who does own mineral rights isn’t getting paid.

  152. Another question, if we can convince the mineral rights owner to drill and put up oil rigs all over the YFZ ranch, do they have to pay YFZ any fees? If so, is there a legal way to get around paying fees to the plygger swine so as to ensure they don’t benefit financially?

  153. there is a fee for use of land and damages to land.

  154. Most wells in that area are Natural Gas wells, not oil wells. But a company from an ajoining ranch could drill for if they wanted, as long as it wasnt on flds land,,, maybe next to their fence, lol

  155. Yes they pay to thump for oil, pay to drill, everything. “They” is whatever energy company is doing the exploring. So if there are rusty OIL wells on those sections then it’s past tense, didn’t work out. Prices these days, what were one time poor producers and shut down may now be actively producing again but that would take updating a bunch.

  156. ok, i missed willie testifying, but apparently he was told that they don’t believe him or something like that and when shown the bed he said he’d never seen that bed.

  157. IS yahoo down it keeps crashing and I thought I saw a warning for today?

  158. don’t know about yahoo.

  159. so is the hearing over?

  160. what suppression hearing is willie jessop talking about tomorrow? nothing is on the court calendar, its set for may 13.

  161. willie says the age of consent with parental approval in texas is 3. that’s not what the law says.

    What is the age with parental consent in Texas?

    Male: 14 – parental consent and/or permission of judge required. Below age of consent parties need parental consent and permission of judge, no younger than 14 for males and 13 for females.

    Female: 14 – parental consent and/or permission of judge required. Below age of consent parties need parental consent and permission of judge. No younger than 14 for males and 13 for females.

  162. darby asked willie how he came to be a spokesman for the FLDS.

  163. i think the age of consent was the old law.

  164. Darby also ask by what authority did he have to speak for Flds of the ranch??? NONE!!!!

  165. I would Personally like to see in this bill , where wording is somehow added, that any child non-suited , if a parent signs a service agreement, to check now and then and be sure that agreement is being followed.

  166. Isn’t that age to consent to marry now 16 in Texas with parental & judge permission in court records at the courthouse, else 18? I’m alsways forgetting, I just know that none of those people go down to the courthouse for any marriage license in the first places. All 50 US states have age limits AND require that both parties be unmarried.

    End of that story, too.

    In 5 years YFZ registered the birth of ONE child in Schleicher County.

  167. What ever junk filing that was, I think is in Tom Green County. It’s claiming that Texas Rangers knew something or other that they think “proves” that Ranger Long misled Judge Walther, I guess to do with the CPS investigators going onto the ranch that first time.

    Who knows what clowns think.

    Pedophilia is not a religion.

  168. willie kept referring to a suppression hearing today and as far as i can tell its not until may 13.

  169. What is Warren doing in Texas on the run? That is so risky the FBI wsa on him too.

  170. Since Willie claimed under oath he isnt the authority why didnt they get Warren out to tell his side. ?

    Maybe when Willie said he had “Josephs Smiths Authority” they beleived him then, but looks like when it gets down to it, no.

    Surprised? lol

  171. Well Watch, I liked the part where Willie got sworn in.

    Willie is learning about due process.

  172. From the recent issue of Eldorado Success, discussing Brooks Long’s deposition:

    “Long further acknowledged finding a cache of firearms, including .50 caliber rifles and a night vision scope.”

    I have seen statements made many, many times that there were no weapons found at the Ranch and that the FLDS are known to be peaceful and would never resort to any kind of violence. The description of this find as a “cache” is a little troubling. I’d like to know more about just how many were in that cache and who they were registered to. And what’s the need for a night vision scope? Is this hunting equipment?

  173. you are not allowed to hunt after sunset and before sunrise in texas.

  174. Oh – well that makes sense. Wonder why they need a night scope.

    What kind of game would one hunt with a .50 caliber rifle?

  175. WOW YFZ pledged as security on a 900K loan

  176. Was just sitting here thinking, on the Oprah show one of the teenage girls said she wanted to be a lawyer, it made me think. Can anyone tell me in just the past 5 years how many flds members, either male of female have graduated from a 4 year college with a bachelors degree of any kind? I am not asking about 15, 20, 30 years ago, just the last 5 years, have ANY flds members graduated with a bachelors degree from a 4 year college?

  177. Legal Shooting Hours for all Game Animals and Nonmigratory Game Birds: from one-half hour before sunrise to one-half hour after sunset. For information on sunrise/sunset hours, please look at:

  178. So I guess the trust negotiations didn’t go so well.

  179. So who is gonna end up suing whom??? That’s the big question? Maybe they will all sue each other, LOL Maybe someone will even sue Merril?

  180. Geez. There are potential lawsuits from all sides. Whoever’s cut out of the trust disposition will probably sue if they feel they are entitled to something and they were deprived

  181. Then all those apostates who were told to continue tithing should be included if they want a piece of the action.

  182. How are those who have been kicked out with nothing going to be compensated for the loss of their life’s work? That land didn’t just appear on the trust list of assets. The people were demanded to give “donations” that bought that property. That is not “free” money, nor was it contributed by warren.

  183. Since Uncle Roy’s time, we, “The people” have purchased three plots to add to the UEP. The first was out by the sewer treatment facility and to the airport. It was facilitated by Bill Roundy.

    The second was from the old reservoir to the new reservoir and over by Don Timpsons corner. This is called the Carling Property.

    The third includes Wendell Nielsons house and Western Precision, down along the highway. THis was facilitated by Richard Holm.

    All the businesses are on a 99 year lease with the state.

    There are actually only a couple people that own land. David Stubbs, Don Timpson, Gordon Meldrum and Lauritzens and Black Family Trust.

    So, this is one of the only places in the United States that I know of that the entire town is owned by one controling interest and that a religion could have such a hold on people.

    If people had owned their own land, do you think this could have ever happened?

  184. No

  185. I was born and raised in “The Work” as it used to be called. I watched as men became filled with greed and tried to control their leaders as they grew old in age. I watched a split here and a split there. Soon new names had to be formed to “Define us from the others”. Thus the legal name FLDS was formed. Warren Jeffs is the second president of that organization. There are many that believe in “The Work” that are not FLDS. “The Work” as I was taught was the belief and practice of teachings in a paper written by John Taylor in 1886. I have read this paper, as people who believe in “The Work” have a copy. I know that the Mormon Church does not claim this as an offical revelation and I mean no disrespect to them. I am talking about what people in “The Work” believe that John Taylor wrote. I am simply talking about what is written in that paper and more importantly what is not written in it. It basicly says to keep Plural Marriage alive. It does not say to cheat the food stamps, or to not pay your credit cards. It does not say to not pay your brother back that which you borrored of him, just because Warren sent him away. It does not say to force your daughters to live plural marriage. Brother Leroy Johnson, who was not any President of the FLDS as it exists today, in fact most of what President Johnson was President over Warren has destroyed. He was a great man who blessed many people. Including the young men. He sent them to be doctors and dentists and school teachers. He had them get their education. He had them start industry and told them not to “oppress the hireling in his wages”, a practice now common under the leadership of Warren, many FLDS members have had their pay cut, so the money can go to Warren. President Johnson would not marry any girl that did not come and “Turn herself in” first. This was basicly her saying “I am ready to be married and want you to do it. Warren has done away with this process and they have 5 minutes to decide or they are considered “Half-Hearted” and not for the Prophet. Nowhere in this 1886 paper does it say to put your sons to work instead of giving them an education and then cast them off when they can’t conform becuase they have been working their butts off because they love their parents and their brothers and sisters and want to see them have food and clothes and such. It does not give any man any authority to undo any marriage and move women around the community like cattle. There is some teachings in the Doctrine and Covenants about adultery, releasing wives from a man if he is with a woman who is not his wife. Most of these men who have been sent out have not done that, they don’t even know why they were sent away. Some asked for a trial as stated in D&C 102:15 “The accused, in all cases, has a right to one-half of the council, to prevent insult or injustice”. They said they could get no returned phone calls and no answer to their repeated letters. The got no trial, as it was their right to have. The only answer they got, was when they found out that their dear wives were put in another man’s house. Looks like Warren Jeffs can’t follow the commandments of “The Work” in following the directions of D&C 102. Lets have a trial for him according to D&C 102 and have him answer for his neglect to follow the commandments of God given by Joseph Smith. Warren claims to hold the highest position in the High Priesthood. To hold that Priesthood, Warren has claimed that he would take an oath and covenant to obey the word of God as written in the D&C. Warren claims to be an Apostle of Jesus Christ. Instructions given by Jesus in the Book of Mormon 3Nephi:32 to his Apostles teach to allow the unworthy to continue to come to the places of meeting.

    So to sum up, these men that have bent sent out should have first had a trial and then if they were found unworthy, still should get to come to the place of worship. I can find nothing saying they get to be robbed of their families and sent away without even knowing what they did. Maybe they knew the truth about Warren, second president of the FLDS and self-proclaimed Apostle of Jesus Christ.
    If Warren wants to be an Apostle, he first needs to act like one. The work of an Apostle is to minister not destroy. If a group of people want to anger God, let them change the rolls of Jesus and Lucifer.

  186. thanks dd. that’s eye opening.

  187. Warren Jeffs did NOT have a college education, he started teaching at Alta Academy the year after he graduated high school. Rulon Jeffs didn’t have a college education either, he took courses through the mail on accounting.

  188. In regards to the “cache” of firearms, the .50 caliber rifle is not typically used for hunting, especially on West Texas sized game animals. It might be useful on a Cape Buffalo or an Elephant, but is not appropriate for Deer or typical Texas game.

    The most common .50 cal rifle was designed around the .50 Browning Machine Gun cartridge which was originally used by the military. The semi-auto rifle version is still used by military snipers at ranges up to 1.5 miles (2700 yards or 2500 meters).

    The Barrett M82A1 has an MSRP of approx. $9,000 each, not including accessories. Some other manufacturers make such rifles that may be obtained for about $3,000.

    The .50 cal round will penetrate ‘thin-skinned’ armored vehicles, such as the M113 series Armored Personnel Carrier used at the raid (and which was commonly referred to as a ‘tank’ by FLDS supporters). During the Federal raid on the Branch Davidian Compound, the sect members used the .50 cal rifle to prevent the law enforcement use of M3 Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicles, which although more heavily armed than the M113, is not capable of stopping a .50 cal round. The FBI eventually had to use real tanks (M1 Abrams and M728 CEV) which could stop the round.

    If as reported, the FLDS had .50 cal rifles, that validates the need for the APC that the officers had on scene, and even so, that APC would not have been enough.

  189. Wow. Thanks Blues. So it’s a sniper/assault rifle a la David Koresh. What were these people planning and what would have been the result if Warren had been on the compound when the raid happened?

    Maybe the compound is more aptly described as a fortress. I’m so glad it did not escalate to violence — but it loooks like the FLDS have prepared to resist with lethal force.

  190. And I bet I know who bought them the rifles,, the one who loves guns!!! Willie Jessop

  191. i was thinkin the same thing dd. who better to supply arms than the gun lover himself, willie the thug.

  192. Deputydog

    Warren bypassed Apostleship and went straight to savior.
    He really believes he is atoning for the sins of the FLDS.

  193. I’ve posted on my blog about this…

  194. Southern Utahn convicted for sending threats to IRS

    By Geoffrey Fattah
    Deseret Morning News

    A southern Utah man has been convicted by a federal jury for mailing threatening letters to the Internal Revenue Service and other government officials.

    After a three-day trial, the jury Thursday returned verdicts of guilty on counts of mailing threatening communications and interfering with IRS laws against 47-year-old Thomas Vaughn Barlow.

    Barlow was indicted last August by a federal grand jury of mailing threatening letters to the IRS, as well as sending copies of those letters to Utah Gov. Jon Huntsman Jr. and Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff.

    Federal prosecutors said some of the letters dealt with Barlow’s history with the FLDS Church, while others threatened to kill IRS agents.

    Barlow has had a past run-in with state law, having previously been charged in St. George with attempted kidnapping, assault and commission of domestic violence in the presence of a child. He was accused of trying to kidnap one of his ex-wives.

    During his September 2006 trial, Barlow’s defense attorney said his client was kicked out of the FLDS church in 2003, and his two wives were reassigned to his brother. Barlow claimed he was trying to “rescue” his family from the FLDS Church. The case ended in a mistrial when it was revealed that a Hildale town marshal failed to hand over a medical report to Washington County prosecutors and defense attorneys until it was too late.

    Barlow is expected to be sentenced on the federal convictions on Jan. 31. He faces up to three years in prison for each count.
    November 16, 2007

  195. And the flds beat just goes on. One more stupid crime by a flds idiot.

  196. deputydog: Thanks for posting the article about Thomas Barlow. Two things were evident to me. 1. The heartache and ill feeling that results from the flds practices of exing memebers and then reassigning their families. 2. The bias and incompetence of the short creek town marshals.
    I have no idea how much they get paid, but it is too much.

  197. Fred Barlow got his badge taken away because he wrote Warren a letter stating he was completely behind warren in everything he did.
    The state took his badge, because although they said he had a right to his religious beliefs, as a paid officer of the state, he was hired to enforce the State laws, Not Warrens !

  198. Even though Colorado city is “incorporated”, it isn’t incorporated from the laws of the state, yet every office, city, county, and police or sheriff’s department were members of Flds.

  199. FLDS members should not be allowed hold office.
    Also how can they be allowed to own a 50 caliber gun?
    That is proof that they were planning on committing mass murder.
    Plus burning victims alive in Utah. I bet they were caught by suprise during the yfz raid or else they would have started shooting. Now we now they are violent gun nuts hell bent on death and destruction

  200. Hey, just so you know, there’s way more to it. Half of NASA is FLDS and they have a base on Mars. I’m serious. Earth isn’t enough. They’re taking over the whole solar system!

  201. I could care less tantaco,, also long they leave the children alone, and STOP abusing them

  202. well tantaco, I sure hope they ship all the flds to mars. Sounds like a great place for that child molesting, child abusing cult.

  203. You don’t believe me? I get the strange feeling that you think I’m lying! Lemme get this right….ahem…. Flora said so!

    There… Now do you believe me?

  204. TanTaco, How bout going by what Documents of evidence actually say?? Unless you to scart to read them?

  205. Hold it. You don’t understand. Documents don’t “say” anything. They’re just arranged letters, punctuation marks and spaces just like you see here on this screen. So from now on when I “say” something and it’s anti FLDS, it’s your duty to believe it.

  206. Go back to Medveckys site tantaco!

  207. Who’s that? Will they believe me?

  208. Knock it off

  209. Yeah sorry. I guess my claim was a little far out there. I’ll try real hard to graduate my comments from preposterous to idiotic so they’ll fit in better.

  210. I have a few questions about Warren’s wives. The list posted has 80-ish names. If I read correctly, about 20 (or more) were Rulon’s wives. Due to the fact that FLDS marry their girls when they’re… um, girls, one can guess that most of Rulon’s 20 are still of childbearing age. Also, presumably, Warren would NOT have bothered with any ‘useless wombs’, thus the additional 60 would also be viable vessels…so, in the 18 months Warren has been in jail have any of these women been reassigned to other men? As the dictations have stated, when other men were not able to “exalt” their wives they were made to forfeit the wife and children. Clearly, in jail, Warren cannot exalt, assault or any other ‘alt’ these 80-odd women. 12 years is a LONG time for that many FLDS women NOT to be bearing children. What if they want to be reassigned? or, human nature being what it is, what would happen if even one of the 80 had a pregnancy while Warren is jailed? Would they claim that Warren had made a celestial conjugal visit? In any case, that many women and their children have to be housed and fed — who is paying for that and how long will the donors be willing to do so? Just curious, because surely, at least of few of these women would want to divorce (?) Warren and move on with their lives.

  211. I do not believe any of Warren’s wives have been “reassigned” to other husbands. I do believe that Warren placed his wives under the leadership of various men, but not as a spiritual husband/wife relationship. I doubt very much any of them want to divorce Warren unless they want out of the community completely.

    You’re correct, that is a lot of women of child-bearing age who will not be bearing children. Remember, however, Warren has promised that the prison walls will crumble and he will be free. I don’t know if anyone buys that, and I don’t know that anyone has really thought about the consequences long-term. I believe they are accustomed to thinking five minutes in front of them rather than planning for the long term. It’s also been claimed that Warren is the only one who can perform marriages, so that begs the question — what happens to the young women who reach the proper age for marriage? Do they just have to grow up to be spinsters and not be exalted because Warren’s in jail? These folks need a big time miracle or a new Prophet.

  212. I found this article thought it was kinda interestinig…..

    1/24/2008 9:16:00 AM

    Wayne Fischer and an unidentified woman walk into the Chaffee County Court Wednesday morning. Arraignment was made and Judge William Alderton continued the case to March 12 allowing Rex Kindall, deputy 11th Judicial District Attorney, time to complete his report.

    Driver of pickup truck arraigned in court

    Wayne Fischer, 38 of Las Vegas, Nev., was arraigned in Chaffee County Court Wednesday in connection with the Jan. 10 traffic death of a 10-year-old girl and injury to others.

    In addition, a 5-year-old girl, one of 15 people in the pickup truck driven by Fischer when it rolled on Monarch Pass, was seriously injured and two others received minor injuries requiring treatment at Heart of the Rockies Regional Medical Center in Salida.

    Chaffee County Judge William Alderton continued the case to March 12 for a status conference to allow Rex Kindall, deputy 11th Judicial District Attorney, time to complete his report against Fischer.

    During the appearance Wednesday, Fischer, free on $1,000 bail, received official notification of 15 criminal charges stemming from the vehicle crash.

    Charges include one count of careless driving causing death and two counts of careless driving causing bodily injury.

    In addition, there are four counts of failure to provide or properly use child restraint systems and eight counts of failure to provide or properly use seatbelts for 6- to 17-year-olds.

    Fischer and his passengers were westbound when he lost control of the vehicle on icy U.S. 50.

    The arrest warrant reported the pickup truck traveled 53 feet off the road, rolled onto its side and hit a large boulder, breaking open the topper cover on the bed of the truck where 6 children were riding. At least one of the children hit the rock.

    Three adults, including the driver, and six children were riding in the pickup cab. None of the passengers was wearing seatbelts.

    The five-year-old girl was subsequently transported to Denver, and the nature of her injuries is unknown.

    Officials are withholding names of others who were in the pickup at the time of the wreck because investigation is ongoing.

  213. By Jennifer Dobner
    The Associated Press
    KVOA News Channel 4 – Tucson

    SALT LAKE CITY — A former key ally of polygamous-sect leader Warren Jeffs may be closer to finding his family but harmony appears unlikely.

    Wendell Musser has sued Jeffs to learn the whereabouts of his wife and son. Now his wife, Vivian Barlow, has emerged, disclosing the county where they live and seeking sole custody of Levi, 2.

    Barlow said Musser should have only supervised visits with Levi, according to documents filed Friday in 5th District Court in southern Utah’s Washington County.
    Originally published August 3, 2007

  214. FLDS Texas: re: It’s also been claimed that Warren is the only one who can perform marriages, so that begs the question — what happens to the young women who reach the proper age for marriage?

    me: Of course, I have no inside knowledge, but Warren must have ordained someone else to perform these celestial marriages. Bishop Merril? I mean their whole flesh-trading scam is based on taking the girls so young that they have no ability to resist. (the fact that the mother’s comply is beyond my personal comprehension – I’d like to see some criminal charges in that arena)

    How likely is it that Warren would be ‘dis-propheted’? I suspect you’ll say, “no chance at all”, but these folks continue to amaze, so I’ve not ruled out that a factional split may yet be in the making. I mean, if the 12 up for jail time actually get taken out of the picture — that would leave a real-world power vacuum. Who’s most likely? Another Jeffs? a Blackmore?

  215. I think William Jessop myself. After All in Warren’s profession of not being a prophet, he named William Jessop. Warren has a trial coming up, and regardless Warren will be tried, I don’t believe Arizona is going to let it go.
    If Warren is convicted, that’s another 5 to 10 yrs he could be in jail. Then he has to be tried in Texas. The man isn’t going anywhere. I actually think the split is coming real soon

  216. me: Of course, I have no inside knowledge, but Warren must have ordained someone else to perform these celestial marriages. Bishop Merril? I mean their whole flesh-trading scam is based on taking the girls so young that they have no ability to resist. (the fact that the mother’s comply is beyond my personal comprehension – I’d like to see some criminal charges in that arena)
    How likely is it that Warren would be ‘dis-propheted’? I suspect you’ll say, “no chance at all”, but these folks continue to amaze, so I’ve not ruled out that a factional split may yet be in the making. I mean, if the 12 up for jail time actually get taken out of the picture — that would leave a real-world power vacuum. Who’s most likely? Another Jeffs? a Blackmore?

    If all the 12 go to prison, there will indeed be a huge power vacuum. My money would be on Lyle.

    DD, William E. Timpson Jessop was ousted from the community in 2007, and I have not seen any indication that he has been welcomed back in. I believe he’s in Colorado, and he may have his own little band of supporters but it would be a very small faction IMO. I don’t think he’s a contender.

    Lyle’s bishop in Short Creek and he’s been a higher up for a while. He and Merril are the ones who retained counsel for the Church, so that tells me Lyle is a decision-maker. He’s flown under the radar throughout this whole ordeal. I think he’s waiting in the wings for the inevitable day when all the leader leaders are behind bars. He will continue to do as Warren tells him.

  217. P.S. I do think Lyle is a True Believer as opposed to Merril, Wendell and Willie, who are merely opportunists more interested in money and power.

  218. Hey FLDS, I apologize for not being “in the know” about this Lyle guy. I’m guessing he’s a brother (?) of Warren’s. Can’t imagine he would name someone other than an immediate sibling to the post of Prophet…kind of like Fidel and Raul.

    What’s his story? (if you have the time) thanks.

  219. Lyle’s a sadistic zealot, or so it’s rumored. He’s Warren’s brother, bishop of Short Creek but apparently living in Texas because his kids were taken into custody when the Rescue happened. He is probably in Texas to spy on Wendell and Merril for Warren, lest they gain too much power or popularity.

    Lyle is a decision-maker, although you don’t hear his name tossed around like Merril and Wendell. It is Lyle who hired Goldstein to represent him personally and to represent the Church (I know, a conflict of interests …). It is Lyle who commissioned Ken Isenberg and the Pearl law firm to “co-ordinate” legal representation for the mothers.

    In the early days, only Lyle and Merril were found to have standing to challenge the search warrants. That indicates that he is a person with great influence and control over the group and their property.

  220. Thanks FLDS Texas. This LYLE-guy has flown under the radar. (apt name he has, eh?) I’m curious as to why he’s considered a sadist, as if it’s not enough to have a Prophet with a penchant for tween-agers. Now the potential for a follow-up Prophet who revels in others pain?

    As has been pointed out by many others, on both sides of the fence, there is no law that you can’t willingly give your allegiance to a despotic leader. But, as always, there’s the caveat that you be of adult-age, even if you chose NOT to be fully informed. The ‘departure’ is when adults refrain/withhold/obstruct the youth of their community from being fully informed. Which is abundantly evident, anyone who argues against that is disingenuous.

    You’d mentioned that you felt this Lyle was a ‘true-believer’, but honestly, the history of this group is so mutable that I’m not at all certain what that means beyond: marry young, marry many, have babies until the women’s wombs fall to their knees, and make sure all the men work for little or nothing and tithe EVERYTHING (money, flesh and bone) to the Prophet.

    What do you think Lyle would do with the throne? …and beyond that, which young men are being groomed to support the new regime? One can’t expect Fat Willie to chase everyone out of the UEP. Heaven knows the guy is only one donut away from the coronary he’s been working on for a lifetime. I can’t imagine him chasing my dog around the block, much less evicting men from their homes.

    Just a quick revisit to my original interest in the 80-odd wives — would Lyle, then, be responsible for picking up the dis-propheted-Warren’s wives? (How old is Lyle?) ..are these women in the running for Prophet husband version 3.0? sheesh, what a tangled web ~~~


    The url above is to a follow up story on the theft of several silver bars from Patty Brown Kingston, a member of the polygamous Davis County Cooperative.

    No writer could ever come up with the plots, subplots and characters involved in the mormon polygamous groups.

  222. I don’t think there will be a new Prophet until Warren dies and Lyle does not appear to be a pedophile to the extent Warren is. When I say True Believer – I mean he believes Warren is the Prophet and mouthpiece of God and that living the principle is God’s mandate -he would kill or die for his beliefs.

  223. Lyle stole money from members just like Warren and Merrill, and Fred Jessop, and Rulon Jessop did. Lyle is fruitcake. Lyle told Flds not to pay the taxes on their homes after Bruce Wisan took the trust over.. So, people didn’t. But guess what? Lyle paid his property taxes..!!!!

  224. The information that is being published here is apparently hitting its mark. I believe there is an attempt being made at a denial of service attack on this site.

    If this site goes down, do not fret, it is backed up on a mirror site and nothing will be lost. There are enough in the network of information gatherers and providers that it will be easy enough to get word around if we need to temporarily take up residence on a backup site.

  225. This site has mostly documents. There must be a lot of people who don’t want the truth out there. Things like Warren’s dictations, legal documents, etc. If you are scared of the truth about the flds you should not support them.

  226. i agree chemist. don’t support them if you don’t want the whole truth to come out.

  227. The truth is always best. It has been sad to me that this group of people has felt that they had to resort to secrecy in order to avoid obliteration.

    I would never defend abuse, especially child abuse. And I would never defend those who make it their great calling to spread every negative thing they can find to prove an entire religious people are bad. Dont we all need to have a little compassion and show mercy? It is shocking to read these comments and see the hostility and disgust and hate – even against the mothers who are doing what they believe is right.

    I havent meant to hide behind a title as accused. I only mentioned being a retired minister’s wife because I was accused of being a FLDS member posting and then accused of being ERICSON. Im just me. A southerner. A Christian that cares. I dont think it is right to take a whole group and assume that they are all the same. Maybe I havent expressed myself very well, but I really dont like generalizations.

    I keep hoping that the strongest, best leaders, with God’s help, will do some very difficult restructuring. There is good in these people and when it is all said and done, we can learn something from them.

  228. LL: I think many of the posters here are hoping for new leadership and a restructuring of the flds. However, I also believe that posting legal documents and other documents can bring about an understanding of the flds practices and doctrine.

  229. FLDS Texas, seems someone doesn’t want the information on this site to get out to the public, hmmmm wonder who all that could be.

  230. Ms. Linda Lamb,
    I appreciate that you are from the South and that in itself denotes a feeling of “gentility”. I also agree with you in your believe that “the truth is always best”. Please understand that you do not know (nor realize; nor understand) the totality of the extent of abuses and the brutality against women, children and families that have occurred for many years within the FLDS group.

    I mean no offense to you, Ms. Lamb, but you are an “outsider” to this issue. However, I am not an “outsider” to this issue. I see the pain and devistation sadly inflicted on msny members from the FLDS a daily basis.

    Children have been sexually abused for decades and NO ONE has protected them. Families have been torn apart for decades and NO ONE has intervened.

    Taxpayers have footed the bill for men who have taken more wives and produced more children than they have been able to afford to provide for (feed, clothe and house) for decades.

    Ms Lamb, I personally have an issue with this. Children deserve to be protected. Women deserve to be protected. And unless your state (where ever you live) wants to foot the bill for paying for these polygamous families’ expenses then please stop defending them.

    Because I, as a Utah Baptist, am tired of seeing the child abuse and the spousal abuse and footing the bill for the multiple wives and children that the FLDS polygamous men keep adding on.


    So, Ms. Lamb, if you are OK with what the FLDS are doing in the name of GOD. then please send a donation to a local charity in Washington County, Utah to foot the bill for the FLDS and what we have to pay to feed and house them. Because it is costing us millions of dollars every year.

    Otherwise, may God bless you in your “insular” community away from “Ground Zero” and you can continue to sit by the sidelines and just pray.

  231. This awareness has greatly come about due to Texas’ response to accusations about sexual abuse of (an) underaged female, next what was observed with CPS’ own eyes. 25% of adult males at that breeding compound are indicted. At least another 25% should have been indicted for similiar criminal statutes in the states they came to Texas from.

    Mrs Lamb do you really feel all those females’ and childrens’ Civil Rights are unworthy of protection? Unworthy ecause they live in Texas, or why is that?

    Are there other US States where children should be protected against underaged sexual assault and impregnation by older married men as some sort of putrid “earthly” reward?

  232. Ms. Lamb,
    The strongest leaders are restructing. The Eldorado Success just reported the YFZ Compound has sold and filed an religious exemption and formed a new trust. Another UEP.

    Warren is still in control.

  233. Linda,
    I do not disagree with one single thing you just said, if I look only at each sentence in isolation. Where we part ways, is in the general focus. Pursuing activities in “secrecy” doesn’t make any of those activities worthy. The FLDS is an extremely powerful group of people, and with a huge amount of money, all squirreled away into a few holdings; real estate, businesses, and construction projects. (And BTW, like most totalitarian societies, it is made possible by enormous sacrifice and general poverty. Is that aspect part of your thoughts?) There is no chance that this group is going to dissolve any time soon. So what exactly are you concerned about? That people are being mean? Do you believe that mean words have some direct impact on the FLDS? And that therefore you need to step in and protect them? Are you looking at their situation, or are you looking to see yourself a certain way? If anyone has confused you with Rericson, it is in the impression you convey that you are the self-appointed protector of the FLDS in the gentile world. I would personally never confuse you with Regina. That is because you write clearly, you take the time to complete your thoughts, and you are civil. I also doubt that you spend your time making phone calls to Bile Madwacky. (Was that “mean”? Well I enjoyed it. “Keeping sweet” has never been a goal of mine.)

  234. Did you see in the new Eldorado Success today it says YFZ has been sold to the Texas Heritage Trust. So is someone else bishop prophet they did this or Merril did it while Warren is in prison.

  235. Linda making generalizations and judging this group as a whole has a factual basis and causation. This secretive sect has 100% interdependence formed from their unique tenets and beliefs. The United Order in practice puts the entire community, in each individual enclave, in total economic dependence upon their FLDS Church. This system eliminates private property and a means then of economic independence. No dissension is allowed or tolerated, only the axiom of “Keeping Sweet” is professed, so 100% compliance or you run the risk of apostasy, shunning and reassignment of your family. Does this strike you as ‘Religious Freedom’ in the context of our Constitutional Bill of Rights? Do you see the presence of the Holy Spirit, Divine Providence or Christian ethics in such a set of practices. Is this not the Great Deception of religious practice and therefore an evil doing? This FLDS Church sect has to a man, woman and children stood mute to Law Enforcements efforts to investigate these practices and alleged abuses, they have chosen to remain with their Prophet as the head of their sect and shown misplaced allegiances to criminal activities that have brought criminal indictments and convictions. Are we not confronted with looking upon their unanimity as a whole, since their past practices, current solidarity and future fighting give every indication that they are controlled by a “One May Rule” ?

    You point to their leadership’s restructuring and refuse to look upon their defiance as a just cause, intelligent position nor defenseless action(s). They have chosen this faith, lifestyle and rebellious activity and we are to judge the individually, although they act collectively, commune with one another for support and obstinately refuse to uphold the Law.

    You are unfairly assessing their repeated, continued and criminal conduct by blaming and guilt tripping those who are in support of stopping these abusive and illicit behaviors. You are contributing to the status quo and protecting the continued crime wave, aren’t you?

  236. caJIM:

    You present very thoughtful and pressing questions. I certainly hope I do not contribute to continued crime nor try to cast anyone into a guilt trip. I do not agree with those who believe in a “one man rule” a modern day prophet, or a belief system that acts on fear. (I guess some would say that all religions act on fear.) Surely we all want to see any kind of abuse or illicit behavior stopped. In our world there is tragically so much that is wrong and ugly and needs to be stopped. And law enforcement has a huge job. Again, it is my prayer that those people who have been a part of this religion for several generations will hold on to what is good and pull away from what is bad.

    I really began to read these blogs and books and all I could find on the FLDS people out of interest in different cultures and religions than mine. The Amish and Hutterites and Mennonites have also been interesting to me. They are quite different. I dont feel that it is my job to be some religious nut defending a cause. But it is sad to me when I see the tones of some so extremely hateful. I hate abuse, too. But Im not convinced that all I read is true. Some of these people are very kind and generous, good hearted people. That is why I come against generalizations. And I admit that I sometimes wonder if most of them have even been aware of all that is happening in the outside world. I hope there will be some good changes and quickly.

    So, I’ve probably said enough.

  237. Linda

    When it all boils down to children still being abused, you have to pull out the stops.

    You can try nice, that didnt work. They just marry preteens like its going out of style. The parents hand em over to the pervs.

    Is that a hateful statement? Its a heinous reality.

    Fortunatley these perverts are going to be imprisoned soon and perhaps this nonsense will stop.

    But dont bet on it – no one in the FLDS has shown an ounce of remorse or repentence for their child molesting ways yet.

  238. Stamp, they have already announced that underage marriages have stopped and no evidence of such marriages since Warren was arrested.

  239. Lying for their Lord.

  240. Lucifer father of lies.

  241. “This secretive sect has 100% interdependence formed from their unique tenets and beliefs. The United Order in practice puts the entire community, in each individual enclave, in total economic dependence upon their FLDS Church. This system eliminates private property and a means then of economic independence”

    CaJim, they can do this in this country, if they want live under a rigid authoritorian theocratic hierarchy, what authority gives us the right to prevent them from doing so?

  242. WHat authority? Food clothing shelter and medical care for their members when their assets are intentionally hidden so as to put the expense all on other taxpayer/earners, while THEY live off US.

  243. Duane, that is outright theft.

  244. Duane said:
    “if they want (to) live under a rigid authoritarian theocratic hierarchy, what authority gives us the right to prevent them from doing so”

    Certain Constitutional rights intersect with the rights of this group in many instances. But one occurs when individuals, who once identified with the group, and once ceded their individual choices to the one great and strong leader change their thinking, and see what once looked like gains as losses, and what once seemed like religious exaltation as blasphemy, or any number of other changes that affect us as we get older. If this process leads them to believe that they have rights that supercede the rights they gave away, they can seek legal redress. That leads to the complications we now see. At this time, all kinds of people who feel affected, either correctly or not, get involved, and help contribute to the public discussion, slowing it down or pushing it forward, according to your own interpretation.

  245. Why duane your question is addressed and too simply answered, is this all you want to know about tyranny and owning people? You seem to be willing to grant the FLDS Church and the prophet Warren Jeffs more power and authority than our Forefathers were willing to grant to King George III, all under the guise of “Freedom of Religion”.
    Thirteenth Amendment states,”Neither Slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime, whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction”. FLDS Church doctrine states that the prophet owns priesthood members and those priesthood members own their wive(s) and children. The only form of human ownership ever allowed in the United States was during the time that Slavery existed and this institution has been made unlawful. The children as defined minors in law are unable to voluntarily pledge themselves nor contract their civil rights to another. Any attempt to formalize such an agreement is far more likely to be ruled unconstitutional than upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States.
    “Forbid it Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, Give me Liberty or Give me Death”, Patrick Henry, 1775

  246. PS, to FLDS Texas, I can’t resist this follow up, and since Mr. Bile is “threatening” to take down his blog, this may be my last opportunity. I’ve always gotten a chuckle out of the “mature content” next to his name on your blog roll. Of course, everyone knows what you mean by this, and why it is there, but still, there are many phrases one can use to describe Bill’s brain, but “mature content” is not one of them.

  247. Judith, Here,here….I second your posting, although fldstexas’ meaning is the content is for adults to view, it is no less an assault on the intelligence of the informed. My cautionary parenthetical would read,”(Manure Content)”, which is unfit for human consumption!

  248. Hey not bad cajim. I had been thinking of some descriptors myself, like:

    just plain “XXX” rated
    or that country road sign “Dip Ahead”
    or for more infrastructure, how about the English “Mind the Gap”

  249. “You seem to be willing to grant the FLDS Church and the prophet Warren Jeffs more power and authority than our Forefathers were willing to grant to King George III, all under the guise of “Freedom of Religion”.”

    All fundie religions are rather rigid. What you don’t seem to get is that Warren Jeffs and the FLDS are not a state, if anyone doesn’t like the way they run things, they can and many do leave.
    In most authoritarian states you are jailed if you try to leave, they can incarcerate you and take away your freedom.
    The FLDs is merely a religious sect, they aren’t a nation upon themselves even if some of their members broke the laws of this country. If you are FLDS and decide you don’t want to be FLDS anymore, you have that choice…you can leave it. Under state rule-you don’t have a choice!! I’m not saying that state rule is bad, but we have to be careful lest the state devours us.

  250. What I find odd is that the news outlets are blind to the sea change this has on everything.

    A new Church name, meaning that there is an OFFICIAL FLDS church split, the legal missteps, the socioeconomic consequences – all are HARD COPY news stories floating around waiting for what?

    A quote from Willie? Hell he wasnt even consulted! Notice he isnt a Trustee?

    Powerless mouthpeice is all he is, and he cant legally even be held to that, so he’s nothing more than an….




  251. No Duane, they aren’t a religion at all, they are a CULT!

  252. duane can you not see that no other formal religion has anywhere near the control or claim of ownership on it’s faithful membership. You want to be preoccupied with fear of the state/government devour you as this covert sect enslaves and takes a “One Man Rule” control of their church group. You say that a unsatisfied Priesthood member can leave but you fail to mention that the Prophet will reassign his wives and family to remaining members, isn’t this a gross level of control of any church leader. Can you name any other formal church that attemots to exercise such a say over a American citizens life. Is this not a violation of Church and State, with in this instance the church being the party guilty of overreaching?

    United Order tenet denies individual private property rights and polygyny tenet removes any lawful recourse to any family law protections. Why be so worried about the State’s powers growing when such a tyrannical church group exists in our midst? Freedom of Religion does not include or protect a church to exercise a power or level of control that exceeds what the state has to observe as protected civil right(s). Apostates claims against excessive abuses and criminal actions of the FLDS church can and must be acted upon to protect every American citizens rights.

  253. CaJim, about “1 man rule”, it is not our place to dictate what leadership structure they may be permitted whether “1 man”, “2 man”, or “3 men and a baby”.

    If an “unsatisfied” priesthood holder leaves or is exed, his wife or wives are more than free to follow him, and many did. If the wife or wives choose to remain in the FLDS and be sealed or “reassigned” to a another “more worthy” priesthood holder, neither you nor I nor anyone else have the moral authority to prevent them from doing so. Divorces as a result of a spouse leaving a religious denomination while the other stays loyal, is not at all uncommon, just ask stamp.

    If the FLDS or other sect want to live as “communists” they can, just as the Communist party of USA has the right to promote their political ideals and field candidates without fear of arrest, even during the height of the Cold War. The ultimate test of freedom is the freedom to espouse ideas no matter how unpopular,

    Apostate claims against abuse are legitimate as long as they are limited to the individual parties involved.

  254. Actually duaneh the wives and children aren’t free to follow a husband who has been kicked out. You don’t seem understand, Everyone, every member Belongs to the Prophet!!! DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT!!!! They belong not to their husband, father, or children, but to the Prophet!

  255. I think duane belongs to Warren too!

  256. deputydawg, if that was the case how is it that so many women have left over the years, it was pointed out to me that CarolynJ and ElissaW aren’t the only ones who left, remember they belong to the Prophet so why didn’t the prophet retrieve them?
    Bottom line is you guys don’t like their beliefs, heck I don’t like some of their beliefs either, but they still have a right to practice them, no I’m not talking about underage marriage but the “1 man rule” thingy.

  257. duane duane duane

    They belong to the Prophet!

    If they leave they are the devil!

    Comprende, amigo?

  258. duane I guess under the guise of religion you grant all powers to the prophet beyond the rights specifically granted in our Constitution. Religious dictatorship is O.K. and you refer to it as a free choice? What choice does a child born into the FLDS Church make? From the cradle to the grave they have their choices presented to them in a controlled and limited fashion. Sorry, duane I am an American citizen and I espouse Freedom of Religion as a meaning that my government can not nominate or affiliate with one church as the sole church in my community. If the FLDS Church leaders espouse their authority derives in origin from Joseph Smith, then they are guilty of ignoring whole sections of the D&C that protects and specifies a hearing must be held prior to any excommunication. Does Warren hold hearings? You state that “One Man Rule” is their belief but it is not a part nor defined in the D&C? The authority that I believe,”We the People” possess isn’t on the basis of a ‘moral authority’ but rather a ‘civil authority’. This secretive religious sect grew in seclusion and out of the public’s eye. Responsible Utah elected officials turned a blind eye and a corrupt municipal authority existed in Short Creek before the Mayor, City Councils, Police and City Staffers were removed and replaced. Why was this action taken duane? I don’t think religious freedom includes the town Sheriff and local Mayor, do you? Does such a religious sect that corrupts it’s power into local municipal authority deserve to be condoned and given a ‘non-profit’ exemption?
    The local water and electrical power system was bankrupted, the local school was dis-enrolled and bankrupted and the UEPTrust was under lawsuits and no legal responses were initiated by the FLDS Church leaders. So the prophet not only was in control of the civic community, he abdicated his control and fled legal authorities when he was charged with crimes that he now is convicted for and faces additional charges. Practicing communism as some ultimate goal and proof of our American freedoms is so stupid duane that it defies our American traditions and forms of democratic practices. I don’t need nor want the Taliban living in my county or community in some misguided and idiotic belief that it proves my freedoms exist to some ultimate degree, our Nation has already met those tests and passed and your pop quiz for the fundamentalists isn’t an examination worth taking nor grading. The LDS Church and it’s disavowal of this sect speaks volumes as to the form of Mormondom they fundamentalists espouse and it’s bankrupt tenets and leadership. duane Democratic ideals don’t need to be tested against a Dictator’s practices. Abuse of power, tyranny and communist principals have no rightful place within our American Democracy, your view is bankrupt duane.

  259. Some women ran away duaneh, like pennie peterson, carolyn jessop, Laurene Jessop, ruby jessop (who went back) ruth stubbs, fawn broadbent, fawn holm.
    Most of the women who left, the FLDS searched for!! The young men who left or were kicked out, NO ONE looked for!

  260. 991 State VS Raymond Jessop Motion to Suppress E.Nichols/A.Goodwin/M.Stevens
    999 State VS Raymons Jessop Motion to Suppress E.Nichols/A.Goodwin/M.Stavens
    992 State VS Alan Keate Motion to Suppress E.Nichols/A.Goodwin/R.Wilson
    993 State VS Michael Emack Motion to Suppress E.Nichols/A.Goodwin/R.Wilson
    998 State VS Michael Emack Motion to Suppress E.Nichols/A.Goodwin/R.Wilson
    994 State VS Leroy Jessop Motion to Suppress E.Nichols/A.Goodwin/N.Calfas
    995 State VS Leroy Jessop Motion to Suppress E.Nichols/A.Goodwin/N.Calfas
    1000 State VS Lehi Barlow Jeffs aka Motion to Suppress E.Nichols/A.Goodwin/B.Hudson
    Lehi Barlow Allred
    1001 State VS Lehi Barlow Jeffs aka Motion to Suppress E.Nichols/A.Goodwin/B.Hudson
    Lehi Barlow Allred
    1002 State VS Abram Harker Jeffs Motion to Suppress E.Nichols/A.Goodwin/S.Goodman
    1003 State VS Abram Harker Jeffs Motion to Suppress E.Nichols/A.Goodwin/S.Goodman
    1004 State VS Keith William Dutson, Jr. Motion to Suppress E.Nichols/A.Goodwin/D.Rogers
    1013 State VS Wendell Loy Nielson Motion to Suppress E.Nichols/A. Goodwin/K.Schaffer
    1014 State VS Wendell Loy Nielson Motion to Suppress E.Nichols/A.Goodwin/K.Schaffer
    1015 State VS Wendell Loy Nielson Motion to Suppress E.Nichols/A.Goodwin/K.Schaffer
    1018 State VS Leroy Johnson Steed Motion to Suppress E.Nichols/A.Goodwin/R.Wilson
    1019 State VS Leroy Johnson Steed Motion to Suppress E.Nichols/A.Goodwin/R.Wilson
    1020 State VS Leroy Johnson Steed Motion to Suppress E.Nichols/A.Goodwin/R.Wilson

    Tom Green County Courthouse at 9:00 Wednesday morning. It doesn’t say which Judge is going to hear it.

  261. Having it in San Angelo where there’s air conditioning is a good thing since it was 105 a couple of days last week. Things could get really heated if it were heard in Eldorado.

  262. It will be judge Walther. She is the presiding judge

  263. I’ve heard talk that she can’t hear a Motion against a Warrant she signed, but nothing official, so I won’t be surprised either way. There are 4 other Judges at the Courthouse and only 1 has anything listed. The only other thing listed is Jury Week. Judge Gossett or Judge Weatherby could hear it just as easily.

  264. I have not heard it would be anyone other than Walther, but if so the result is going to be the same. I have confidence in all of those judges. I saw that they’re doing the hearing in San Angelo. That’s good because I bet that Schleicher courtroom is awfully hot right now.

    This warrant issue seems very simple to me – all that really matters is whether Brooks Long knew the caller was not really being abused at the compound. Everything else is just drama from the Pic.

    I still think there’s a very big questiion of standing also. It was previously determined only Merril and Lyle had standing to challenge the warrants. Not sure how that changes now.

  265. This is also proof they have no remorse, no repentence – no guilty plea is planned.

    I expect the book will be thrown at them.

  266. I suspect you’re right.

  267. Judge Walther will hear the motion unless she has been removed or has recused herself from the case.

  268. “duane I guess under the guise of religion you grant all powers to the prophet beyond the rights specifically granted in our Constitution”

    CaJim you are confusing the US government to a religios sect. Religious denominations are not required to operate as representative democracies. How many religions elect their pastors, priests and prophets anyway? The Baptists don’t, the Catholics chooose their pope through election by a select group of elite bishops, very few if any religious sects leaders are chosen by popular vote of the membership.

  269. If they file motions willie nillie the case will drag on. And it’ll cost them a Kings ransom. Wonder if the Creekers mind funding this for 3 years?

    Hmmm Just double yer tithes a few years longre!


  271. Stamp: you said willie nillie. don’t you mean willie nillie, millie, jillie and lillie? 🙂

  272. duane there is no confusion on my view. First the secular government trumps any and all religious authority and the Constitution is the supreme law of this land. FLDS sect members that move or are removed to Canada/Mexico are no longer under the auspices or control of the United States. FLDS Church powers and authorities are supposed to be based upon the Mormon Doctrines & Covenants which WSJeffs has ignored and violated these written tenets. This makes Warren a rogue prophet, by his own standards, the authority/teaching of,”One Man Rule” traces back to Rulon Jeffs and Leroy Johnson and is not written or a part of the D&C. I never said anything about a popular election being prerequisite to any church organization or act as a representative government. The Legislature’s and State governments certainly have the power and authority to enact laws to limit and make church practices illegal and they have. The FLDS Church will have to answer to the State and they already have done so, WSJeffs is in jail. I notice that you make no mention of the corrupt and shill government operated and controlled in Short Creek and the abuse of local government powers and authority are glossed over. Corruption of local municipal governments is acceptable to you as long as the local church group gets to exercise the prevailing authority. You think that is an old American democratic practice and legal? Warren bought himself an airplane that was later traced back to funds taken from the local school district, so the plane was seized/sold.

  273. Your right its on the calendar, but doesn’t have the judges name. Maybe Judge Woodward will hear it, since he is the only judge scheduled to hear anything that day, but it was filed under 51st district Judge which is Judge Walther.

  274. Cajim

    WELL stated! Guess their school district stealing days are over too!

    Always good to remember some of the odd and outrageous acts they THINK they can get away with.

    It all comes crashing down on them and they wonder “WHY ME” or in Warrens case:


    Willie Nillie Milly and the Filly too!

  275. so if the warrant is upheld, can the defendants appeal it now or will they have to wait until they are convicted and use the warrant as part of their grounds for appeal?

  276. Why not just plead guilty!?

    They were caught red – handed with plenty of DNA and other evidence.

    They will spend more time in prison by pleading not-guilty and fighting it. Look at Warren.

  277. It will be heard by Judge Walther, in the 51st District Court.

    It cannot be directly appealed (meaning that there has to be a final judgment first), but if convicted, the defendants can raise the denial of the MTS on that appeal, if they preserve error.

  278. thanks blues man!!

  279. i wonder if it will be heard in the big courtroom and how big a crowd there will be. i’m tempted to drop by and watch the goings on.

  280. Wonder if this will be a good photo op day?


    Check out that post by Blues Man.

  282. Check out the latest post – Carolyn Jessop just sued Merril Jessop for current and back child support based on his new residence in Eldorado – which means that he’ll be back in Judge Walther’s court for that…

  283. Thanks Blues. I added a new post and linked to yours. This might be interesting. They were just talking about this issue over on Brook’s blog the other day.

  284. I think its GREAT!!!!!

  285. “Internatitonal Man of Mystery” Myrtle Jessop gets PWNED in court, and even Willie the Thug couldnt protect him!

    Betcha he wishes he was back up shart crick without a paddle!

  286. Will Judge Walther be the same judge for the interstate child support order?

  287. Yup


    check this picture out to ,,these boys don’t look scared a bit to me.

  289. M

    Warren did all that? WOW

  290. This M guy sounds very much like a former poster who called himself God’s special Idiot or something like that. His posts consistently proved the appropriatness of his name, just as M’s posts prove he could properly and appropriately be called God’s special idiot.

  291. Get a grip, Mac.

  292. Gone

  293. Thank you flds Texas for removing M’s posts.

  294. Anyone read Medveckys site? Sounds like he is calling game over, the tears of the mothers have been vindicated and the CASA and CPS bitches (I am sure that they take that as a compliment)have moved on to torturing other harmless pedophiles. Brings a tear to my eye.

  295. I gave up on Bill M’s site a while back. The profanity and racial slurs along with Bill writing the article and posting most of the comments himself made it not worth my time. Maybe I should revisit it for another look.

  296. i visit occasionally. mostly to check and see if he’s sued the state of texas yet.

  297. Brent Jeff’s book “Lost Boy” was released today. has a video of Brent visiting the old Alta Academy in SLC and he even tours the bathroom where Warren (the perverted pedophile prophet) sodomized Brent and other little boys.

  298. Any one know who owns Alta Academy now? Watching that clip it looks like the Jeffs just walked away from it and left it abandoned.

  299. LadySadie I never cease to be amazed at some of the details of the FLDS Church and important facts that are not pointed to until apostates bring forward previously never disclosed details. Brent Jeffs video clearly shows closed door passageways that lead through the schools offices and classrooms? Clearly adding credence to his storylines and raising serious questions and needed explanations from Utah’s local board of education’s supervision and inspection of a school building. This private school was accredited and licensed to operate with an existing corridor system that was disclosed or secreted away from their knowledge? I would suspect that this is just another in a series of covert behaviors that hallmark the FLDS Church sect practices. It’s existence is a rather embarrassing expose` on the local education board’s failure to properly supervise and professionally protect the schools children’s welfare.

  300. I heard someone was looking to buy it, Alta Academy STUNK so bad!!

  301. IM assuming FLDS still own the building.

  302. The Jeffs compound was sold to a non-profit group around 2000 or so after Rulon and the family moved to Short Creek to escape the upcoming SLC Olympics and the doom and gloom the “outsiders” and foreigners would bring to town.

    This non profit group called Common Thread provided housing for donor families, transplant recipients and patients awaiting organ and bone marrow transplants at hospitals in the SLC area – kind of like a Ronald McDonald house.

    I had seen photos on their web site of the houses they had converted for these visitors. That great big kitchen in Rulon’s house came in really handy for cooking for the big group of folks who stayed here during their loved ones’ surgeries.

    I agree with LadieSadie that it looks like the Jeffs just walked away from Alta and left a mess. I guess this non-profit group didn’t use the old Alta Academy building. The photos they had on their web site showed beautiful accommodations.

    I heard a couple of years ago that the land was going to be converted into a housing development (PUD) and Alta Academy was going to be torn down.

    So, I don’t really know if that non-profit is still in business or not. I don’t know if the PUD was ever built or not. A few months ago I had some folks in SLC swing by to see of Alta Academy building was still standing and they told me it was.

  303. Here is some detailed info on the old Jeffs compound in Sandy. I found it listed on – although this property is currently not for sale.

    3601 Little Cottonwood Rd in Sandy, Utah

    Under the Property Features section it says it has:

    Year Built: 1969
    23 bedrooms, 9 baths (not very many IMHO)
    Approximately 15180 Sq Ft
    Lot size: 93,654 Sq Ft
    Stories: 1
    Rooms: 40
    Last sold on 11/3/2005
    Source: Public Records

    I still don’t know if the organ transplant non-profit (who bought it in 2000) sold it to developers and it never got developed into the PUD community. The developers applied for a zoning change in 2006, so my guess is that they did buy it from the non-profit in 2005 – per the Public Records “last sold date” of 11/3/2005.

    Looks like the original homes (I think there were 2 main homes) are still there and the dreaded Alta Academy is too. (Although does not list this school with the other ones in the neighborhood)


    Minutes: Wednesday May 3, 2006 – 7:00 p.m.

    Metropolitan Water District of Salt Lake & Sandy

    3. Other Business (7:55)

    The Utah Department of Environmental Quality (UDEQ) and the U.S. Department of Environmental Quality (EPA-Region 8) provided status of the Superfund Clean-up efforts for the former Flagstaff and Davenport smelters sites. Tom Daniels (Project Manger: #536-4090) & Dave Allison (Community Involvement: #536-4479) represented UDEQ, while Duc Nguyen [EPA Site Coordinator: (303) 886-1636] represented the EPA. They provided a Superfund Fact Sheet about the effort and showed recent pictures taken at the sites.

    1. Davenport Smelter Site

    The Davenport site affects more people, and had the highest concentrations of lead & arsenic at 200-250 parts per million (ppm). Nine properties have completed the remediation process to date. These properties include the four most impacted properties, the remaining 3-targeted sites, plus an additional 2 properties. Owners of five properties remediated in 2005 will receive letters from the EPA effectively giving the properties a clean bill of health. Included are: 3601 Little Cottonwood Rd and 9682, 9687, 9744, & 9756 Quail Ridge Road. This year Davenport waste remediation on the back of 4 Quail Ridge properties is scheduled. The period of work begins in July 2006, and should be complete in November 2006. Access to sites has been an issue. La Montague has refused access of the dump trucks through the narrow lane of their gated community. Safety, dust, noise and vibration were resident concerns. UDEQ believes they have found an alternate access off of Wasatch Blvd east to the back of the properties.

    GCC concern was expressed regarding proper development of the Jeffs compound given its conditional council approval regarding zoning and EPA Superfund status. The latest plans do not appear to meet GCC concerns with respect to visitor parking and access. The EPA reassured GCC that there is an agreement in place with the SLCo Building & Zoning that no permits for construction in Superfund areas will be issued unless the plans are reviewed & approved by the EPA.

    Oh my! Lead and arsenic found at the Jeffs Compound in Sandy, Utah. I wonder if that explains some of Warren’s subsequent behavior?

  305. Here is more info on the Jeffs compound in Sandy from

    This web site says the property has 23 bedrooms and 10 bathrooms. Maybe was not counting the bathroom where Warren sodomized the little boys.

    This web site also has a prior sale date of 2004 instead of’s 2005 last sold date.

    Last sale and tax info

    Sold 06/09/2004:
    2008 Property Tax:

    Year built: 1969
    Year updated: 1989

    I guess the new wives wanted some updates and upgrades to the home.

    Architecture: Ranch / Rambler
    County: Salt Lake
    Parcel #: 28121520190000

    GOT THAT RIGHT! Yep, it’s a rambler alright!

  306. The Sandy house has been demolished.

  307. Really? Is everything gone? All of the homes and the Alta Academy building, too?

    Are they going to turn it into a housing development PUD then?

  308. Before tomorrows last chance to settlement for all parties concerning the UEPTrust. I wanted to quote Warren Jeffs August 06, 2005 comment and highlight the “ZERO” chance of agreement from the Prophet:
    “We must continue to ANSWER THEM NOTHING and not give in to their proposals and ways. May the Lord guide me that I will not compromise in the slightest degree, knowing His will is the United Effort Plan Trust is rejected of God, and is not the gathering place and the people must qualify to come to the lands of refuge[Eldorado,TX, Mancos, CO, Pringle, SD] or else be rejected. And we will be scattered as a people and then the faithful will be gathered. and that is the Lord’s way, and we will not work out differences so called with this judge and government”.
    The negotiations are preordained to failure from the Prophet Jeffs, unless there has been another revelation, tomorrow’s failure is to be expected.
    The policy of, “Answer Them Nothing” is still very much adhered to regardless of what Willie R. Jessop says.

  309. I am not trying to argue with anonymous May 21, 2009 at 2:08 AM, but I just got an email from the lady who bought the Jeffs compound after they moved to Short Creek. She was one of the owners of the non-profit Transplant House (Common Thread, Inc.). She said the compound is still there although the EPA left a lot of scars on the property from doing soil testing for arsenic and lead. She said the Alta Academy building is still there, too. Part of the basement ceiling caved in from a broken water pipe and the place needs a LOT of repairs, but the new owner probably won’t do any repairs because they are planning on tearing everything down to build a housing community PUD.

    So, I am under the impression that the buildings are still standing, although they and the grounds are a real mess. Too bad, it used to be a beautiful place with lovely grounds.

  310. On Buster D. Johnson, Mohave County Supervisor Dist. III

    Interview transcript from Suzan Mazur in 2006 The full story can be located here:

    Suzan Mazur: Mohave County is home to thousands of polygamists in Colorado City on the border of Utah. Are most residents members of the polygamist FLDS church?

    Buster Johnson: All residents are members of the FLDS church.

    Suzan Mazur: Can you briefly describe Arizona’s position on polygamy?

    Buster Johnson: It really has no statute against polygamy that’s enforceable. It has a law against bigamy but that doesn’t pertain to the FLDS church or the polygamists because they’re only married one time. The only thing that we can really go after [under existing legislation] is when they’re married in a formal setting – in a church or through a justice of the peace. That way we can prosecute. But we have no control over the celestial marriages that they have.

    Suzan Mazur: Unlike Utah which now has a statute that includes co-habitation.

    Buster Johnson: Yes.

    Suzan Mazur: Do you know if Arizona has any plans to update the bigamy statute?

    Buster Johnson: There’s nobody championing that cause in the legislature right now.

    Suzan Mazur: And there’s also no one who would address criminalizing polygamy?

    Buster Johnson: We have no one that’s championing those causes anymore.

    Suzan Mazur: Is the legislature in Arizona like Utah’s where it’s very dominated by the Republican party?

    Buster Johnson: Yes. At this point we’re very heavily Republican.

    Suzan Mazur: Now in 1985, according to Twin City historian Ben Bistline, the Mohave County Board of Supervisors enabled the town of Colorado City to incorporate. And at that point the town became eligible for government grants. Its that right?

    Buster Johnson: Yes, it is.

    Suzan Mazur: This was at a time when Barry Goldwater was US Senator, Bruce Babbitt was Governor and John McCain was a US Congressman from Arizona. Did any of those people have to sign off on the incorporation?

    Buster Johnson: That I’m not sure about, but I don’t believe so. It came before the then-seated Board of Supervisors. We had five members at the time and it passed by a 4 to 1 vote.

    Suzan Mazur: Are any of those Mohave board members people of prominence now?

    Buster Johnson: Supervisor Rose went on to do something, but I’d have to try to find out. He was the youngest guy elected supervisor at the time and went on from there.

    Suzan Mazur: What happened next is that Colorado City applied for a grant to build an airport in the canyonlands and it didn’t even have bus service into the nearest town. But it applied for a grant for this airport and did indeed receive $3 million in federal money – 91% of the grant was federal, 4.5% was state and 4.5% local. It also got a HUD grant of $1.8 million to spruce up the neighborhood. What’s your response to this?

    Buster Johnson: Obviously, I wasn’t around when they were doing that. But you have to question the reasons behind the town building an airport, the sincerity. I mean you have an area that is so sparsely populated, which had locked itself away from civilization with no public means of transportation and with one road in and out of Colorado City so the people living there could be controlled as well as the people who come in and out. Why would an airport be built when there weren’t even any planes in that area?

    Suzan Mazur: Yes. Why not put a bus line in to the nearest town for starters?

    Buster Johnson: And these people aren’t allowed to be travelling anyway. You wouldn’t see kids get on the bus to go to town by themselves. When they travel, they have chaperones – they go as a group. The average person would take advantage of a bus system, where a group like this would not.

    Suzan Mazur: Then Arizona in 1992 declared the airport “Airport of the Year”. And when I spoke to LaDell Bistline, the Colorado City airport manager in 2001, he told me there were only about seven planes kept there, including then-FLDS prophet Rulon Jeffs’ leased jet. What do you suppose the purpose of the Colorado City airport is?

    Buster Johnson: When I was first elected to the Mohave County Board of Supervisors in 1996 and before I took office, the people who’d been elected, we all took a plane ride up to Colorado City because I hadn’t been there before. I’m not sure if the others had or not. And we landed at the airport. And the airport was locked in. You couldn’t get in or out without calling somebody at the municipal offices to come and let you in or let you out.

    So it wasn’t like open to the public. And I saw the plaque that said “Airport of the Year” and I wondered why because there weren’t any airplanes sitting on the tarmac or hangars for planes to be sitting in.

    And coming from a law enforcement background, I thought – here’s a remote airstrip sitting in the middle of nowhere – drug running came immediately to mind.

    Suzan Mazur: What is your background in law enforcement?

    Buster Johnson: Los Angeles Deputy Sheriff. I worked dope. I retired.

    Suzan Mazur: Do you know Mike Ruppert? He was a Los Angeles narcotics detective in the 1990s who later took on CIA director John Deutch at a public meeting over the CIA flooding South Central Los Angeles with crack cocaine.

    Buster Johnson: Made him popular I’m sure. I retired in 1983. But the name sounds familiar.

    Suzan Mazur: The feeling is then that the Colorado City airport may be a kind of Mena, Arkansas, a transit point for drugs, weapons, women, cash, etc, particularly because it’s situated so close to Las Vegas and an hour or so from the drug infested state of Chihuahua – home to the Mexico’s historic polygamy colonies of Colonia Juarez and Colonia Dublan?

    Buster Johnson: It’s also in close proximity to the Canadian border. So if you were flying in, you’d have enough fuel to make it down to an airstrip that’s “unregulated”.

    Suzan Mazur: Has anyone you’re aware of actually chronicled events at the airport? Has anyone actually gone there and done a stake out? Are there accounts of any of this activity?

    Buster Johnson: Reports came to me when I first started looking into this regarding the airport and regarding drugs and other things that possibly could be coming in. It isn’t until recently that some eyes were on it. Up until the last few years, you could not even enter the town of Colorado City without being followed by the police.

    Suzan Mazur: I experienced that myself.

    Buster Johnson: And then you were escorted out.

    Suzan Mazur: Right.

    Buster Johnson: Let alone the airport. And people, some of the women I talked to and some of the boys would tell me planes at the airport would land, products would be unloaded and planes would take off in very short order. Because it’s such a closed community, they obviously weren’t allowed to talk to anybody on the outside, so you didn’t question anything. Plus, the majority of the people are not streetwise. They’re raised in a society that’s not familiar with drugs, so they wouldn’t know what would be unloading or what wouldn’t be unloading, if it was legal or illegal.

    At the same time, we had numerous reports of drug labs in the Colorado City area. And at that time there wasn’t so much worry about those people using drugs. They were more into the money part of it. Where they facilitate it and make a profit from the drugs.

    Suzan Mazur: What year are you talking about?

    Buster Johnson: Well it was happening prior to, but I became especially aware of it beginning in 1996 when I first got elected to the Mohave Board.

    Suzan Mazur: So the airport’s closed off at night and no one can just walk in.

    Buster Johnson: No. It’s chain-linked fenced-in.

    Suzan Mazur: But I thought it was a “municipal” airport – a sort of public place.

    Buster Johnson: Even when we flew in as elected officials in 1996, as I mentioned earlier, we had to call somebody to come and unlock the gates to let us out.

    Suzan Mazur: Viewing it in a positive light for a moment, what do you think government officials had in mind when they arranged the grants for the airport? Were they somehow trying to break the isolation, bring diverse traffic to the area in hopes of changing the demographics of the neighborhood?

    Buster Johnson: My thoughts first time I saw it was that it had been built by the prophet for his private use. And the reason I thought this was there were no other planes except for the plane the prophet had. There was no reason to fly into Colorado City because there are no services there.

    There are no hunting trips. Or any kind of commercial ventures. The FLDS call it “bleeding the beast”, which means anything outside their organization is free to steal from and is considered a good thing to do. So, they feel if they can get millions of dollars to build an airport – more power to them.

    Suzan Mazur: Isn’t anybody in government looking into where the money’s going?

    Buster Johnson: You would hope so. But obviously not.

    Suzan Mazur: They also got a HUD grant. There are all those fancy homes there. I took some photos of them.

    Buster Johnson: The HUD grants come from – you have to qualify financially from the amount of money your family makes to get a lot of these loans. And the people there basically show that they have no money even though the Church we can document having $400 million.

    But the people have no money. So when you start looking at a community, a lot of people – they haven’t raised the HUD standards in a long time. So it’s harder and harder to get people to qualify, even though they’re living under poverty. These people in the twin towns show no income. Numerous children to support. So they qualify. So they just give them the money.

    A lot of the money if you don’t use it goes back to the federal government. So the states don’t care where it goes.

    Suzan Mazur: Do you lament the lack of action on the part of the FBI in dealing with the problem on the Utah-Arizona border? I mean they’re going after one guy. And I assume largely for the assets he’s got.

    Buster Johnson: The FBI has been contacted over the years time and time again with allegations about the FLDS and complaints of what we believe has been going on in Colorado City, and they basically refuse to do anything. Anytime you ask them or state agencies a question, they’ll say: “If you bring me this information and you can get the witnesses, then we’ll do something.”

    Well I thought that was their job. I thought if complaints came forward and you knew about this, then it was the FBI’s responsibility to say: “We’re going in and look at this and clean it up once and for all. We have something or we don’t have.” It’s not like it was just one person making this complaint.

    Suzan Mazur: Particularly in the case of Arizona, which doesn’t have a criminal penalty for polygamy – it would seem that it would then fall to the federal government to deal with the problem.

    Buster Johnson: Especially because of the relationship with Bountiful in BC. We have human trafficking across the border, undocumented people going across the border so that makes it now a federal offense.

    Suzan Mazur: I also understand the Senate Judiciary Committee which oversees the DOJ and FBI is having no luck in dealing with them. Not only on this issue but on every other issue. So we have a shut down of Justice. What’s going on?

    Buster Johnson: And it comes from LDS leadership in the Justice Department and FBI. Obviously, this is not something they want to take action on. Even now that they’ve put Warren Jeffs on the 10 most wanted list. Does he deserve to be there with so many murderers out there? I’d like to see attention brought to the Colorado City issue. But you can remove Warren Jeffs tomorrow and the issue’s still going to remain. They’ll just pick another prophet.

    To me, the FBI is grandstanding by saying, “Yes, we’re looking for this guy, and yes, 10 years ago or 12 years ago he may or may not have molested an eight-year old boy. And he may or may not be performing these illegal marriages.”

    Does that qualify him for the top 10 when we have murderers and other people? I don’t think so. I think there are other people who qualify for that top 10 list much more.

    Suzan Mazur: Now on the state level, the Attorney General on the Utah side has said that he just doesn’t have the resources to deal with the problem. Is this a similar argument on the Arizona side? Terry Goddard’s office, the AG there. I mean even though there was recently a mini-raid in Colorado City, it was about an underage problem and not polygamy.

    Buster Johnson: Terry Goddard really hasn’t come out and said that in Arizona as much as Mark Shurtleff has in Utah.

    Suzan Mazur: The resources Shurtleff’s referring to are funds to hire people to sort things out . . .

    Buster Johnson: Incarceration. Prosecution, etc. I hate to say it, but government’s not in the business to make money. When you look at the billions of dollars we send overseas and the small amount of money that it would cost to deal with this — the federal government should come in and do the investigation. And if we have to place people in homes, children in homes – government should be paying for it.

    Suzan Mazur: This could be sorted out with assistance from the private sector. There are a lot of very wealthy businessmen close to the Mormon community, for instance Bill Marriott. And the people who founded Carlyle Group who came from the Marriott organization. Investment banker/Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney has deep pockets. Then you have, of course, the LDS church. All could be assisting — if it were a matter of money.

    Buster Johnson: The way I look at it is, government has allowed this to grow to the proportion it has. They’re responsible. Law enforcement is responsible and could be indicted as co-conspirator. Like you say, government allowed the Colorado City polygamists to be incorporated.

    That’s tantamount to arming the Mafia who are say, “Hey we have our own town. We want to be legitimized.”

    And government saying, “We’re legitimizing your town. Now you can get federal grants. And have your own police force and have access to anything that the City of New York has.”

    Suzan Mazur: The atrocities have been going on for a hundred years on the Utah-Arizona border. There’s a lot to account for.

    Buster Johnson: And because of these incestuous relationships, producing deformities and that sort of thing, the lifestyle of raping young daughters, raping young boys, brutalizing women and the brutalizing of women among women – I think that these people basically are so hard core that they cannot be allowed back into normal society. They need to be allowed to die out completely.

    You can’t just say, “Okay we’re going to take this family and place them in LA or somewhere.” First of all it’s not fair to the family itself. Nor is it fair to the community. They need to go somewhere where you can deprogram them and show them another life. And it’s going to be just as hard as kicking the drug habit or any other addiction.

    Suzan Mazur: What would you like to see happen down there in Colorado City to resolve the situation?

    Buster Johnson: Law enforcement should go to every house and say: “Okay – everybody outside the house. Mothers stand with children. Okay, you’re the mother and this is your child.” And then you get the birth certificates. “You’re 36 and this child is 24, so obviously you were 12 – an underage marriage. It looks like you were 15, etc. Somebody did this.”

    And that way you can show rape’s been going on and is continuing. Along with polygamy. You can show it’s very incestuous.

    Suzan Mazur: You’re talking about local law enforcement doing this. And if local law enforcement doesn’t do it, then the FBI should go in.

    Buster Johnson: Good law enforcement could put an end to this. But I think once they do that, then you have to take the families. You can bring in psychiatrists and try to save as many as you can. The ones you can’t save, stay there until they die.

    You can’t release rapists and those sort of people into a society. At the same time, if you have children that can be saved and their mothers and fathers, then maybe you can re-acclimate them into a normal society.

    Suzan Mazur: Is there anything you’d like to say in closing?

    Buster Johnson: We need to look at who has facilitated the cult for all these years. And those people need to be held accountable – specific elected officials, bureaucrats, law enforcement people who turned their back and allowed the people of Colorado City to get to the position where they are today. Where it’s normal for people to be raped and beaten and there are no consequences.



  311. I read that Judge Shumate planned on assessing a penalty of 600.00 a day against Warren’s commissary account in Purgatory until he(or his lawyers) would provide information concerning the whereabouts of Wendell Musser’s wife and child. Did this happen and is it continuing? This was in July 2007…

  312. It’s that Curse, I knew it, the one about Living in Interesting Times.

  313. mississippigirl — it was ordered that Warren’s commissary account be garnished, and that is what actually compelled him to give the information about Wendell Musser’s wife and child. It is not still in effect.

  314. Wow, that’s effective!

  315. It would have been nice if Arizona could have passed the law that said if one parent gets out, and ceases to engage in the illegal practice of polygamy, they automatically get their kids, if the other person stays in it.

    I’m sure Wendall would be crying a lot less if he at least had his only son with him. Instead, his life gets to be Hell, thanks to the polygamists. How nice for the state to give them that sort of power over him, even now.

  316. There’s no way to make such a law. What if the parent who leaves us a crack addict or bank robber. The standard always has to be the best interest of the child.

  317. Okay, here is the first version that never stood a snowball’s chance in you-know-what….

    AZ HB 2325:

    Be it enacted by the Legislature of the State of Arizona:
    Section 1. Title 25, chapter 4, article 1, Arizona Revised Statutes, is amended by adding section 25-403.10, to read:
    25-403.10. Child bigamy; polygamy; custody and parenting time; definitions
    A. Unless the court finds that there is no significant risk to the child and states its reasons in writing, the court shall not grant a person sole or joint physical or legal custody of a child or unsupervised parenting time with a child if the court finds sufficient evidence to believe that the person has engaged in the practice of child bigamy pursuant to section 13‒3609 or polygamy and will continue to engage in the practice of child bigamy or polygamy in the future.
    B. For the purposes of this section:
    1. “Marriage” has the same meaning prescribed in section 13-3609.
    2. “Polygamy” means a person who has a living spouse and who knowingly enters into a marriage with any other person.

    HB 2325 makes it unlawful for a court to grant custody or unsupervised parenting time to an individual who engages in child bigamy or polygamy.


    According to statute, child bigamy is an act committed by someone who:
    Is at least 18, has a spouse and marries a child.
    Is at least 18, and alone or in association with others, causes a child to be married to a person who already has a spouse.
    Is at least 18, and alone or in association with others, causes a child who already has a spouse to marry.
    Transports or finances the transportation of a child to promote the marriage between the child and a person who already has a spouse.
    Transports or finances the transportation of a child who already has a spouse to promote the marriage between the child and another person.

    Statute currently classifies child bigamy as a Class 3 felony, carrying a presumptive sentence of 3.5 years in prison for a first offense.


    Prohibits the Superior Court from granting sole or joint custody of a child, or unsupervised parenting time with a child, to a person who has engaged in child bigamy or polygamy and who the Court believes will continue to do so in the future.

    Defines marriage as the state of joining together as husband and wife through an agreement or ceremony, regardless of whether a marriage license has been issued.

    Defines polygamy as an individual with a living spouse who knowingly enters into marriage with another person.

    Second, stripped down version: HB2009 482R
    Be it enacted by the Legislature of the State of Arizona
    Section1 Title25 chapter4 article1 Arizona Revised Statutes is amended by adding section 25 40310 to
    read 25 40310 Child bigamy custody and parenting time

    So there you have it, neither one was ever passed. There were simply too many sympathetic or indebted legislators, to the FLDS, in Arizona.

    If the parent who leaves is not an appropriate guardian, the child goes to the state, not back to a parent practicing polygamy.

    Polygamy is against the law,. Why should someone who is purposfully breaking the law, and raising their child to do the same, be granted custody?

  318. They never even got either to a vote. It was blocked by friends of polygamists in their legislature. They won’t even support not giving custody to someone who is known to rape little girls!

    Someone please tell me if they think we already have that problem in Texas?

  319. I really applaud Buster Johnson for stating some hard core facts about how this cult needs to be handled. How in the world would we ever try and place them back in society? They have brutalized their women and children in the worst possible ways, skimmed money from the government & ignored every law they think they can get away with.
    Now alot of people would argue that this goes on other places as well (and they are right) but I can say for certainty that when the public at large finds out about a COMMUNITY that lives like this, well, THAT is when you lose your right to live as a community or religion, and we step in.
    I’m glad the people in the twin towns (the few that have posted)seem to be sick of Warren Jeffs. Great! Now do you think you can possibly start treating your women and children BETTER and quit trying to bleed the beast (which is your judge and jury by the way) and live a somewhat more normal life? I don’t know.

    UNTIL the women & children are educated and are able to make their own choice without fear for themselves or their families paying the price, I am not convinced.

  320. Boots I hope to God Texas doesn’t have that kind of problem in the legislature…. However Darby and Hildebran have sure taken lots of heat from Polygamists, but it hasn’t seemed to deter them.

  321. MG,

    The education of females and polygamy are incompatible. Why do you think Warren took everyone’s books away and pulled children from school?


    Hildebran is a hero in my book. I met with his assistant after I got back to Texas. He said I gave him more information on the FLDS in our 2 hour meeting than they had been able to obtain in the last 3 years.

    As far as I’m concerned every politician in Texas, from Kinky to Kay, better have a very good platform to stand on when Texans start asking them questions about polygamy, and efforts to protect our women and children.

  322. I think Buster Johnson is wise to the scheme and can bust their billiards.

  323. Well, if anyone wants to help Buster, they can start by helping the AAAP. He’s our President. You can read a little more about him under the “About Us” page on the AAAP’s website.

  324. I will

    Thabnks Boots!

  325. With alot of the major players at YFZ in jail & going to jail, do any of you think OVER a period of time, this ranch will stay populated? I mean realistically speaking, they don’t have immediate access to Warren to make every decision so I was thinking eventually wouldn’t his authority slowly disappear? With the money cut off from the UEP trust & the twin towns, the attorney bills and the cost itself of the ranch and being under such scrutiny, will they be able to keep it going?

  326. I agree Boots, Ive written Kay Bailey Hutchinson Twice on this matter. She has actually answered my letters. She is definitely for protecting children from abuse. And said she had been keeping informed on the committee hearings they had so far from Health and Human Services committees, including the one where Willie Jessop gave testimony.

  327. It will stay populated, even if Warren goes away for good.

    What you have to understand is the politics of the FLDS. That’s why I wanted to see which concubines were seeing Warren the most, especially around the time he was in posession of the laptop.

    These women have a very highly vested interest in keeping Warren in power. If he does not stay in power, where will they be reassigned next? Who will be the person making those decisions for them and their children? What will happen to them when they are completely in someone new’s hands? Imagime being afraid of losing that power? At least if your current master is locked up in jail, you don’t have to serve another you don’t even know. “Which number wife will I be? Will I be favored? Will he already have younger, prettier ones? Will the first wife like me?Will my children get enough to eat?”

    Not prosecuting the women here in Texas is doing no one any favors in the long run.

  328. mississippi girl

    I think the light has gone on for you. Its no secret that Short Creek – the “REJECTED” place, has funded and kept alive YFZ. As that dries up, its anybodies guess how they can keep it afloat- but remember, Warren is a dead ender who wants to fulfill his own prophesies of destruction.

    He has done a pretty good job knocking down the sand castle so far, i dont see the failures nor the financial bleeding stopping any time soon.

    He could simply plead guilty and save them, but NOOOoooooo…

  329. It has been reported that Naomi Jeffs was one of Warren’s most faithful jail visitors. She was formerly married to Warren’s father Rulon and also accompanied Warren on much of his shoe dust cursing of the different states. She was also in the red caddy when Warren was arrested in Nevada.

  330. Thank you Stamp, I agree 🙂 the light has gone on. To stay… The more I read the stories, the blogs , everything, the more I understand this is a cult controlled by a very sick person and it must come to an end. I always thought I was a well informed person until this came up last year.I will tell you now, I had no idea that polygamy was being practiced to this extent. Now, I know I have ALOT more to learn ESPECIALLY about our politicians who have let this mess grow in their own backyard and their refusal to do anything about it.

  331. Naomi was the one after Rulon died who stood UP in a meeting and told “everyone” Rulon had told her, Warren would be the new prophet. Im supposing everyone accepted that… Warren married Naomi, (but they were having an affair even when rulon was alive)Yes Naomi is Warren’s favorite wife and has visited him continually while in jail.

  332. Okay, here is the visitor information for the 10 day time period the eye witness was inside.

    Paula Jeffs 6 visits
    Naomie Jeffs 5 visits
    Merilyn Steed Jeffs 4 visits
    Kathryn Jessop 3 visits
    Estella Jessop 2 visits
    Annette Jeffs 2 visits
    Rebekah Steed 2 visits
    Alissa Steed 1 visit
    Vickie Nielson 1 visit
    Ora Jeffs 1 visit
    Mildred Jessop 1 visit
    Monica Jessop 1 visit

  333. That’s the list of people visiting Warren Steed Jeffs, while the Texas people’s first Grand Jury was convening, and he was in communication with SOMEONE.

  334. so annette was in arizona while her daughter was called to testify in front of the grand jury? that woman is just bucking for mother of the year.

  335. “But Larry, we just want our children back”.

  336. Merilyn Steed Jeffs is Jeffs mother.

  337. Interesting that warren’s visitors as listed by Boots do NOT include Willie or any of the “priesthood leaders” of the church.

  338. Priesthood men hide behind the women of this cult. Put a few key women in jail and it all unravels. For starters begin with Naomie, Annette, and then Barbara. Throw in Ellen Grace Young, for good measure.

  339. And jail Zavenda Jessop, that woman should be jailed for abandoning and denying all her children that weren’t “good” enough to go to YFZ with her.

  340. I’ve always been curious why Naomie Jeffs was not jailed at the time of Warren’s arrest or subsequently charged with harboring a fugitive. Anyone have any theories about this?

  341. Well, before anyone grabs a pitch fork and lights torches, I’d hope there is some evidence of crimes.

    But that’s my general point. I was shocked there were no women charged with willfull neglect or child endangerment or something along those lines.

    Just because the Care Bear colored mothers look innocent, doesn’t mean they aren’t responsible for any laws they’ve violated. What happened to “Ignorance is no excuse”? They are raised to KNOW they are breaking the law by practicing polygamy, and they choose to do it anyway.

    How is NOT breaking this cycle of cultural abuse ever going to help Texas women and children escape it?

  342. NTC

    I dont understand why they get away with half the stuff they do.

    Perhaps we are seeing a slow change to that. But yea everyone in the car should have been charged, unless they plea bargained.

    To allow slam dunk perps to walk is disingenous by LE.

    BTW Warrens next trial after AZ is his Fed “Flight to Avoid Prosecution” trial to be held back in… Utah.

  343. Stamp,

    They get away with what they do, because law enforcement, prosecutors and the judicial branch, especially in UT and AZ is blatantly corrupt to polygamy.

    I am completely unconvinced, so far, that this is any different at the federal level.

    One of my questions, when the YFZ rescue was underway was, “When are they going to match up some of those mothers to the abandoned Lost Boys, and will they be charged with abandonment?

    I can’t tell you how many Lost Boys have told the same story of how they made it all the way back to the creek to beg their mothers if they could come home…only to have doors slammed in their faces, calls unreturned, or outright rejection.

    Did anyone in Texas even bother to see if any of those boys who have comitted suicide, died in crack houses or ended up in prostitution or prison had a mommy on that ranch?

  344. Well we know Merril went to see Warren a month before his deposition because Natalie Malonis ask him that question, and he answered, “It had been about a month since he had seen Warren”.

  345. Boots, there was a difference between the Creek compound and YFZ ranch. Children weren’t allowed to leave the ranch, to go to town. And If they had to go to a doctor IN San Angelo, they were accompanied by an adult, taken for the appt, then right back to the ranch.

  346. Not trying to be rude deputydog, but I guess I’m missing your point?

    Mine is that there are, more than likely, mothers on the YFZ who collaborated with the FLDS to drive their own minor children from their home or community.

    If I collaborated in dumping my 14 year old son off on the side of the road in Las Vegas, and then moved to Texas three years later, does that somehow excuse me from the crime of child abandonement?

  347. Oh, and here’s a question for Texas CPS: Did you bother to see if any of those mothers you gave their children back to were guilty of child abandonement in the past? Did you even bother to see if any of the HUNDREDS of Lost Boys in UT, AZ and NV had a mommy you were returning children to and declaring it “safe”?

  348. From the very first Press reports of Warren’s arrest in Nevada, both Isaac Jeffs and Naomi Jeffs were side witnesses to all the excitement that Warren had been captured. Naomi is, also, bishop F. Merril Jessop’s favored daughters and Warren’s present legal concerns leaves Naomi’s Dad in charge at the YFZ Ranch.

    Lost Boys compiled data either in Short Creek, Utah or Bountiful, Canada is sorely lacking. Dozen’s of boys showed up at a Salt Lake Legislature rally a few years ago and many seemed to be looking forward than fighting with their parents.

  349. How will it help if we arrest only some of the FLDS women but not all? I think it would be a waste of time if we don’t go all the way. Another thing, if the UEP is litigated down to zero, the FLDS who live there are going to go live somewhere else, so how are we going to stop them from worshipping Warren or some other polygamy leader if all the shart crikkers move to YFZ or the Eldorado area, Colorado, South Dakota, and Idaho? If we try to arrest them for polygamy, will that be practical if there are no witnesses and what evidence would LE need in order to get an arrest warrant for polygamy?

  350. caJim,

    Nobody begrudges the boys moving forward. My questions, as always, center on the blatant lack of law enforcement and protection of children within polygamy in the American West.

    Although there have been hundreds of Lost Boys abandoned over the years, I am still waiting to see the prosecution or conviction of one FLDS parent for the abandonment of a child.

    If I drove my 14-17 year old to Dallas, dumped them off on the side of the street and told them never to come back home, you can just bet there would be a LE officer knocking on my door, not too long afterwards.

    But up in Colorado City, Arizona, they have done this to literally hundreds of children…and yet no one has EVER been charged with a crime?

    Imagine that.

  351. bushwacker,

    Polygamy is illegal in all 50 states of the union. It is, however, up to each state to decide what the criminal penalty for that crime should be.

    In Arizona, although it is written into their state constitution that polygamy is forever prohibited within their state, there is ZERO criminal penalty for it. In other words, there is no law against polygamy, and they like it that way. It was nothing but hollow lip service, ensuring they got themselves into the Union.

    I cannot speak for other states and how I would like to see it work there. I am a Texan, however, and here I would like to see it made a felony, with hard time attached.

    Back West? The only way to stop it is to do exactly what the federal government did in the 1800’s with Utah. Tell them their time is up, no more polygamous unions. Grandfather the perps who’ve already done it in, and any new ones caught doing it get arrested and prosecuted.

    I want Texas women and children protected.

  352. I wonder if LE got statements from all these minor boys who were dumped on the side of the road and just did nothing.

  353. I can’t find any evidence of law enforcement CARING enough to get the statements from the lost boys. It seems to be an embarrassment all the way around for them. Their own police were behind it because they were all loyal to Warren.
    Years ago, when they were trying to remove Sam Barlow from law enforcement, state officials stated they were STUNNED by how everyone answered to the prophet and how much control he had and exercised over the group.
    It seems that eye-opening experience for them was enough to convince them to leave this group alone and let them do as they please. Which is exactly what they have done.

  354. According to Shurtleff he had affidavits from over 400 boys kicked out of flds, or left because of such stressful pressure from Warren. there were indeed so many boys who left underage, Utah had to pass an emancipation law for these boys, because they couldn’t get a social security number, driver’s license.

  355. See? Hundreds of endangered children and yet no prosecutions. Hmmmmm…

    Shurtleff’s answer is to emancipate the victims and leave their parental abusers back in Colorado City and Hildale to keep making more victims to be abandoned and emancipated…Uh yeah, vote him into the U.S. Senate next, he’s a real winner!

  356. If these boys never had social security numbers or driver’s license how do the FLDS members qualify for welfare? Can you get welfare in Utah and Arizona without such documentation?
    Is there any hard data on how may boys were kicked out by their parents vs. those who left on their own?

  357. Ooooo, bushwacker, how I do love interesting questions!

    Q: Can you get welfare in Utah and Arizona without such documentation?
    A: I have no idea, but I certainly wouldn’t think so.

    I would hope that what that meant was emancipation helped the Lost Boys get copies of that sort of things. Because if not, then who is to say the Care Bear colored mothers weren’t still collecting food stamp dollars for boys who had already been kicked out, right up to the age of 18?

    I mean, what do you say to your social worker, “Oh, by the way, little 15 year old Johnny isn’t living with us anymore, so you need to reduce my benefits by one, k?”

    Q: Is there any hard data on how may boys were kicked out by their parents vs. those who left on their own?

    A: Shurtleff claims to have over 400 affidavits, does it matter whether the 15 year old was driven out, or just that no one cared when he was so uncomfortable he left?

    “Oh my, I woke up this morning and my 15 year old boy Johnny is gone. I wonder where he got to?” Two weeks later, “My my, little Johnny still hasn’t come back home and there had been no word at all. Gee should I make a missing person’s report to the police?” Nah, nobody is going to care”. And, unfortunately, she’s right, because nobody up there dose!

  358. Boots, back in the 1800’s they charged polygamists with cohabitation since it was so difficult to get witnesses to testify. According to a book I read, they would pay bounties for providing evidence of cohabiation. Such “bounty” hunters would pose as beggars and drifters who would wander through Utah towns and look in windows, listen for a baby crying in a house occupied by a “single” woman, question kids walking to and fro about who their mom and dad are, looking for “cohabs”.
    Do you think such methods would be appropriate or would the authorities get slammed in the press or by the ACLU if they tried such tactics today?

  359. Boots I am trying to agree with you that this “Lost Boy” data is lacking and I guess given their minor status and therefore sealed records a valid data list may never be available. I think DNA and biometrics compiled data would go along way in placing “Lost Boys” back with their legally responsible parents. Texas has now compiled the DNA of the 2008 children at the YFZ Ranch which will serve in the coming years to place children with responsible parents, at least in Texas.

  360. Bushwacker

    What book did you read? Or are you just making wild accusations?

  361. Boots thanks for the answer about the documents. Ok, they had them but needed copies since their mothers kept the originals. About care bear mothers collecting welfare on kids they threw out, didn’t think of that but it sure sounds like fraud.

  362. FLDS Texas, I’m doing research, I swear to God it is true at least according to the book but that was back in the 1800’s, I’ll look for the title. It was a history of Mormons in general, wasn’t about the FLDS per se.

  363. bushwacker, to answer your question, NO! I would definitively never condone such tactics by law enforcement. NEVER!

    I would, however, like to see polygamy prosecuted when it is found.

  364. While LE has been spotty over the last few decades, the outing of a few who went public on their own (like Tom Green) has caused a renewed interest in prosecuting the worst polygamist crimes.

    Utah AG Mark Shurtleff openly admits he doesnt plan to prosecute polygamists, due to “insufficient resources”, unless other heinous crimes are committed as well during this so – called polygamist relationship.

    Examples of convictions in Utah for Bigamy are Tom Green and Rodney Holm, both who were also convicted on child abuse charges.

  365. The book was called “One Nation Under Gods: A History of the Mormon Church”

    They referred to the polygamists as “cohabs”

  366. Shurtleff had affidavits & did nothing???? No one questioned a single mother at YFZ about these boys, KNOWING these women were the MOST LOYAL & they would be the very ones THAT DID kick their sons out? Unbelievable.

    I had no idea that Attorney Generals were so weak. If he is so sympathetic towards the adults in this cult, why go to the bother of getting the affIdavits at all.

    What is wrong with this guy? Hey, all of you politicians that do nothing about the polygamists, really, go live with them. We are tired of your inaction & incompentance.
    When someone is elected to office we EXPECT you to uphold that office and DO YOUR JOB. When the next election comes around , do all of us a favor and don’t show up.

  367. Bushwacker, please attempt to find the title, otherwise, lets just consider that unsusbtantiated heresay.

    NOW that said, there were many federal actions taken over polygamy in Utah over the years. Jacob Hamblin fled the feds to New Mexico where he died, I understand his home in Santa Clara UT still stands and is a tourist stop as is the St George residence of Brigham Young, the Tabernacle, and of course the St. George Temple.

    Pipe springs was owned by the LDS Church, but sold during one episode where the LDS Church would forfiet properties if Polygamy was found. The fort sheltered polygamists. It is also on the “Mormon History” map of southern Utah.

    But gentiles looking in windows in the late 1800’s? Hadnt heard that one.

  368. I read about a debate between Marcy Hamilton a constitional expert who worked for the Supreme Court and someone representing the Utah AG office. The Utah AG rep said it was hard to get evidence for just polygamy but Hamilton said they could observe who was going in and out of houses. Do you agree with doing that?

  369. Thanks, I will add it to the library. I am aware of the LDS churchs trials and tribulations amongst gentiles during Smiths day, but even back then I dont recall any prosecutions leading to convictions regarding Polygamy, only Smiths final arrest and mob attack.

  370. I just listed the title, 2 posts above your last one.
    Ok, I’m going to buy the book. Since everyone here is so exact and specific about what is said, I will pay extra attention to the details. If I recall, the “crying baby” part may not have been in that book but maybe another book since I read through several books. I am going from memory, if I recall it was “the sound of a crying baby could instill fear” or something like that but pretty close to it. They paid money if you found a “cohab” and mormon cohabs were very wary of people looking through windows.

  371. FLDS Texas, back then they arrested hundreds or maybe it was thousands of “cohabs” during the 1880’s. The decade of the 1880’s was by far the worst.

  372. No, you cant arrest people for going in and out of houses. However there are lots of obvious easy cases which include polygamy that are just flat ignored by LE and sadly that includes Texas too.

    Smoking marijuana seems such a worse crime, oh I guess except in California.

  373. Here is more information:

    1885 to 1890 was marked by intensive “polyg hunts” for “cohabs.” The Mormon community in the West was terrorized by harsh enforcement of these laws. “Hunting cohabs” became a lucrative employment. Men and women were paid to ferret out offenders of the act. Some assumed the role of peddlers or of tramps and wandered among the Mormons digging up information. Children going to or returning from school were stopped and asked about the relations of their mother and father. At night prowlers peeked into Mormon homes to determine if men were violating the law. Sometimes men broke into Mormon homes without search warrants, and if men did not surrender, they were fired upon.

    The books I read said basically the same thing.

  374. FLDS Texas, what are the obvious and easy cases excluding those who go on talk shows and those where child abuse and other crimes are alleged?

  375. FLDS TEXAS: :::SNORT!:: Yeah, Saint Willie got into more trouble in Louisianna for pot than polygamists in Arizona have for child abandonment.

  376. Stamp:

    “While LE has been spotty over the last few decades, the outing of a few who went public on their own (like Tom Green) has caused a renewed interest in prosecuting the worst polygamist crimes.”

    That seems to be the case. I think when Warren exed over 20 “respected in the FLDS community” men there was an awakening by LE. I think there was fear of open warfare, I have heard that police patrolled it heavily, not arresting people, but there just in case things went crazy.

    In the end the men went quietly, and there women and children were assigned by Warren to other men, some of whom also lost their Preisthood.

    These kinds of issues bring the attention of a wide spectrum of people. Its not just polygamy any more.

  377. bushwacker,

    Oh, I guess in Arizona living in Colorado City would be a start. Social workers and the health department are not ignorant of exactly who the polygamists are. It goes something like this: “I’m a single mother with no income applying for benefits, and I live in Colorado City”.

    Believe me, sugar; no one has to peep in windows to know who is polygamous there.

    I feel like you’re fishing for one of us to advocate violating someone’s constitutional rights, and I don’t think anyone here EVER wants to see that done, to anyone.

  378. Boots

    “bushwacker, to answer your question, NO! I would definitively never condone such tactics by law enforcement. NEVER!”

    Well you were more emphatic than I! No, that would not be kosher. But yes, take the case of Barbara Jessop, one of her stepchildren gave a sworn testimony to being kicked in the stomach after being hurled across the room – when he was 3! Then she gives up a 12 year old girl to Warren – hmmm not mother of the year, and BTW, she was at YFZ when Warren visited as a “Fugitive from Justice”. There is a lot she is skating on right now.

    The glory days for many of these skaters is ending however, and it looks like LE is concentrating on the men for the time being.

    But there is a fundamentalist lady named Jacquline LeBaron who is still wanted by the FBI, and not for polygamy either.

    Her crimes ran deeper.

  379. Boots

    It does appear bushwhacked is fishing. My advice to you, BW, would be to read the Dictations posted here and let it sink in, there are people getting their rights trampled.

    And when it comes to women and children, its not right… And I for one am glad that Texas has taken more action than UT and AZ put together.

  380. I’m not fishing for anything, why so touchy?

    ““I’m a single mother with no income applying for benefits, and I live in Colorado City”

    That makes sense, but what if they don’t live in Colorado city or start using a mailing address in another town. Also the care bear outfits would be a dead giveaway but they could start wearing normal clothes when they go to the welfare office.

    Would giving Colorado City as address and their old fashioned dresses be enough for the police to get a search warrant on suspicion of polygamy?

  381. BW

    Would a guy who lives in West Valley City who had long hair and wore flip flops be enough to get a search warrant for drugs? Yes, you are fishing.

    There is no law against being ugly or having your mother dress you funny.

  382. The two teens were part of a press conference that often focused on the “fanatical” leadership of Jeffs, who rules over an FLDS sect of about 10,000 located in the adjoining towns of Colorado City, Ariz., and Hildale, Utah.

    More FLDS members are said to be living in Canada and Texas. Where Jeffs is staying at this time remains unclear.

    The challenge, Steed said, was coming forward, knowing that some of the faces in the crowd on the Capitol steps might mean excommunication or a harder life for some families who are still FLDS members.

    The goal, say former members, is for more to come forward with their stories. Some, including Krakauer, say reform within the FLDS church needs to start with getting Jeffs out of his leadership role.

    “The major issue here is the treatment of children,” said Fischer, who left the FLDS Church 12 years ago. He now says it’s a church that hides behind freedom of religion as it destroys families among its membership. In the wake of this destruction are children who Fischer and Krakauer say need a “leg up.”

    Krakauer is now a “dad” or mentor to Steed.

    “I sincerely had no intention of becoming an activist,” Krakauer told the Deseret Morning News. When asked whether he has ideas for a follow-up to “Under the Banner of Heaven,” he replied without regret, “I can’t write about this anymore.”

    As Krakauer’s objectivity on issues related to the FLDS Church diminishes, he said removing Jeffs from power would make things “measurably better” within the church. “He convinces good people to do terrible things,” Krakauer said.

    As Shurtleff, also a mentor, spoke above the flapping sound of a nearby American flag, he turned to the boys seated on the steps and said, “I don’t care what you’ve been taught — that flag flies for you.”

    Also attending the press conference was Ed Smart, whose daughter Elizabeth allegedly was abducted by religious zealot Brian David Mitchell. Smart said he drew similarities between the boys’ plight and the circumstances of his own daughter’s abduction, and said he showed up Saturday to lend his support — much like he received while Elizabeth was missing.

    Shurtleff said that while the press conference was meant to focus on the children, there are ongoing criminal and civil investigations.

  383. caJim,

    Didn’t mean to ignore you back there… Yeah, I know about the DNA, and I was hoping desperately Utah could use it to match some of the Lost Boys, and finally get some justice for those children.

    Instead, Shurtleff’s rep was busy up in St. George, meeting with the “Safety Net” Committee, asking them if they would step forward to be “good foster parents” if he could get Texas to release the children to them.

    Excuse me…I think I need to go hurl now. Definitely need to step away and breathe for a while…

  384. SALT LAKE CITY (AP) – Damned by his religion, denied by his family and left with nowhere else to go, the teenager slept in a cold tool shed just steps from a company owned by his relatives. They went home at night to warm, cozy beds while Tom Sam Steed stole bread, cereal and nutrition bars from a gas station just to survive. He tried, several times, to kill himself, convinced he was worth nothing. His salvation came when he got a job cleaning carpets and finally left the control of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or FLDS, and its leader, Warren Jeffs.

  385. Emotion rarely slips into John Jessop’s conversation. The tough-talking 15-year-old was kicked out of the FLDS church at 13 and sent back by a court order when he was charged with possessing marijuana. He was kicked out again recently for wearing short sleeves, he said.

    “It wasn’t really a happy childhood,” Jessop said. “I’m never going to go back there again.”

    He hopes to be adopted, to have a new family.

  386. deputydog

    And of course Warren didnt stop at just boys – the mass exing of dozens of men left its mark as well.

  387. It’s amazing to me, that NO adults or LE in Utah or Arizona would take responsibility for what was happening from the early 90’s forward… They all just kept passing the buck to someone else.
    Reports were submitted by teens running away from Flds, or those who were kicked out, submitted to authorities….
    LE, and Attorney Generals office became outraged ONLY after Dan Fischer took on the plight of those Boys!!! Until then it was swept under the carpet.

  388. “It’s a mathematical thing. If you are marrying all these girls to one man, what do you do with all the boys?” said Utah Atty. Gen. Mark Shurtleff, who has had boys in his office crying to see their mothers. “People have said to me: ‘Why don’t you prosecute the parents?’ But the kids don’t want their parents prosecuted; they want us to get the No. 1 bad guy — Warren Jeffs. He is chiefly responsible for kicking out these boys.”

    My, how soon Shurtleff has forgotten his position in 2005!

  389. By the way, just to jump back into the conversation y’all were obviously having when Dan Fischer’s son was killed…

    You know the first thing Buster wondered about? All three of the guys’ car windows were rolled down, in an obvious attempt to make sure there was enough oxygen to make things “burn right”.

    Funny, when Buster’s vehicle was rigged to blow in his own driveway a few years ago…the window was cracked, too.

  390. Boots, something else that is strange,,, We haven’t heard another word about the Three deaths.

  391. April 16, 2009
    Lesson #6: Be hopeful, passionate and persistent…never give up. Change can come in sudden and unexpected ways. Don’t let your circumstances determine who you are.
    So many of us feel the constraint of our life circumstance. It’s easy to do so considering how difficult change can be. I can recount numerous periods of time in my own life where I felt challenged by circumstance. Perhaps one of the more significant periods of change relates to my childhood and the process of breaking free from a culture that had a definite impact on how I viewed my life goals. Growing up in this community, I would have never envisioned the opportunity to complete my education, start a business and have a family of my own. I know my life would be very different today had I not been hopeful about making change happen. I will also say that my circumstances helped me appreciate the change that followed. It’s sad to say this but I probably would have never understood the full meaning and value of “freedom” without living the first half of my life without it.

    The most unexpected and painful change in our family occurred 6 weeks ago. A very special and tender 28 year old son was found dead, his car and body burned beyond recognition. One of the most haunting fears I have now is that I might forget how his always warm and tender voice sounded when he’d come home and say “Hi Dad” followed by a long, warm hug.

    For sure, our family must move past this knowing that the huge hole left by Lorin’s vacancy can never be filled. It is important that we as a family continue to grow stronger and more embracing of all good humans which Lorin taught us in vibrant ways. We can never lose or forget the fabulous lessons we’ve richly experienced from Lorin; an individual who presented no more and no less of himself. It is so important that his life continue to bring the valued meaning it deserves. And this I shall embrace as a turn the corner of the finale marker of my 60s into a new adventure, my 70s.

  392. By the way, Dan Fischer wrote this after his son lorin’s death

  393. I admire him for being able to see things that way, 6 weeks afterwards. When my only son died 12 years ago, you might as well have buried me with him for the first two years afterwards. I was useless, and am very blessed to have lived through it to come out the other side.

    So Shurtleff never prosecuted because the boys didn’t want him to? I wonder how many children of crack addicts have had their same “wish” fulfilled by the UT AG?

    I’m not going to stand by and see my state corrupted like this. No way.

  394. Boots, I agree with you, and How Shurtleff got away with allowing children to be thrown out of thier homes in such huge numbers, I don’t know. Honetly, Most other states wouldn’t have allowed it, or would of investigated the family themselves!

  395. Q:”…and How Shurtleff got away with allowing children to be thrown out of thier homes in such huge numbers, I don’t know.”

    A: Corruption to polygamy

    If I can get one message across to Texans who care about children, and the future of women’s rights here, it’s this: POLYGAMY IS ABUSE.

    We’ve already seen the “honor killings” of two beautiful girls in Houston, because some nut [their father] thought his religion was more important than their lives. If we don’t shut polygamy down in Texas, with good legislation, and strong law enforcement, there will only be more.

    After being involved in this issue for four years now, I say with all the sincerity I can muster from my soul, legalizing, or decriminalizing polygamy is the greatest threat to the future of women’s rights, since before passage of the 19th Amendment, and your grandaughters and great grandaughters will envy the rights you once knew, unless you STOP it.

    As for me? I have a new T-shirt and it reads:

    You want to come down here to Texas, decriminalize polygamy, and take away my right to be my husband’s only living equal?


  396. Awesome Boots!!!

  397. Thanks deputydog, I’m not feeling very awesome today, just weary of people thinking I’m Chicken Little.

    Flora and I hit the road for the tour in about 8 days. We still need “safe houses” in several Texas cities for the tour [Read Sam Browers affidavate to understand why we need “safe houses” and not hotels]. You can check which ones on the AAAP’s blog site, under the post “Seeking Host Texas Families”.

    If you see us out on the road, HONK! We won’t be hard to miss. I drive the truck that has signs all over it reading, “POLYGAMY IS ABUSE”;) Oh…and there’s a little one that says “HARDCORE TEXAN”, too. lol.

  398. Boots – I admire you a lot for all you are doing to help bring attention to the crimes and abuses under the guise of this “religion.” Though some of the things you say seem farfetched (such as Warren being allowed a computer while in Mohave Co. Jail), I do not believe you are lying or even stretching the truth.

    Below are several women who’ve spoken out about abuses they’ve endured or witnessed. Many people seem to believe they are lying or embellishing their personal accounts. The more I read Warren’s personal testimony and the other evidence on this website, the more I am certain major crimes and abuses have occured.

    I thank you and the women below for helping us all see the truth.

    Flora Jessop
    Carloyn Jessop
    Elissa Wall
    Sara Hammon
    Kathi Jo Nicholsen
    Laura Chapman
    Laurene Jessop
    Ruth Cooke
    Lenora Holm
    Penny Peterson
    Pamela Black
    Elaine Jeffs

    Also thank you Mike Watkiss, John Dougherty, Ben Bistline, Laurie Allen, John Krakauer and Brent Jeffs

  399. “We won’t be hard to miss. I drive the truck that has signs all over it reading, “POLYGAMY IS ABUSE”;) Oh…and there’s a little one that says “HARDCORE”

    Agent bootsie, since you are asking people if they have “safe houses” for you and Flora to hole up in during your “secret missions”, presumably to avoid stealthy FLDS ninja assassins, one would think driving around in a truck plastered with “polygamy is abuse” slogans would be wouldn’t be wise since you couldn’t ask for a brighter target. Is the truck armored? Does it have special gun ports so Flora can fire back at FLDS bad guys when making quick getaways or engaging in running street battles?

  400. Ruth Stubbs
    Fawn Broadbent
    Fawn Holm
    Katie Cox
    Margaret Cooke
    Pennie Peterson
    Kathleen Mackert

    and the list goes on and on, and no one would listen!

  401. duane, you make Texas look bad! Everything you say is typical “RedNeck”

  402. In this instance, I think Boots and Flora have the right idea. Sometimes it is better to stay OUT IN THE OPEN. There’s not a woman around that wouldn’t RUN to their defense if needed.

    Safe houses are needed to stay with people you can trust. Certainly better than hotels & rooms which are not safe at all and are much easier to hide people you CAN’T trust.

  403. Hey, DD, I resemble that remark! A rude yankee in Wisconsin once looked me up and down, saying “No, we don’t have any chicken picatta, you damn hillbilly”.

    I looked back at him, up and down, and replied, “Well screw you! You don’t even know the difference between a hillbilly and a redneck!”

  404. nearthecreek,

    Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

    A little more on the “laptop story” can be found on the AAAP’s blog.

    I am moving towards asking the witness to sign an affidavit, so at least we will have some form of documentation. The reason I have not asked the witness to do anything like this before, is that the witness is a resident of Mohave County, and I worry for their safety if made public in only a small way.

    I believe the media is a very good shield for people who are revealing a truth or blowing a whistle, especially on any form of government corruption. The problem is that the local Mohave County media is mostly corrupt to polygamy, and the corrupt law enforcement there as well.

    It is very hard for me to ask this of a person, for one, they are a very well known and respected member of the tri-state community. Their incarceration, for a first time DUI is potentially very embarrassing for them. They took their vacation time to quietly serve their sentence.

    Publicly coming forward opens them to potential harassment by local law enforcement, puts them square in the eyes of the FLDS leadership, and like I said, could be embarrassing personally.

    If I had one major media outlet willing to cover the story, I believe it would provide some measure of protection for them. But so far? Nothing.

    Asking someone to risk their public reputation and possibly their health or life…well I’m sure you can understand my concerns.

  405. Mississippigirl,

    EXACTO! Plain sight is the best hiding place I know.


    Just in case you were fishing for an answer, YES, both of us will shoot back. You can just bet your boots on it, although unlike deputydog I don’t see you as a redneck, more like a sandal wearing freak.

    Oh, and the Texas Rangers/DPS will have a copy of our itinerary and our routes, so I’m not too worried about having to follow up on that shooting back business.

    But thanks for making an excellent point for us, on why we need the safe houses.

  406. Boots – IRT finding safe houses to stay at during the book tour, how about contacting the Texas chapters of the National Organization for Women? They may have some members who are interested.

    I’ll try to find some other organizations or volunteer groups to contact.

  407. Thanks nearthecreek, we will take help from any concerned, trustworthy, and sincere individual or group.

    I don’t have a lot of respect for NOW, because they’re flirting with endorsing polygamy as a valid “alternative lifestyle”. Any group that claims to care about women, and then completely ignores the real life experience of millions of Muslim women around the world, who are fighting to get their human rights recognized and wanting freedom from the tyranny of polygamy…well, I gotta wonder if they really care that much about women, or if they just have a liberal agenda that will only damage real women in the long run.

    But hey, if you can get them to wake up, or help, more power to you.

  408. “I don’t have a lot of respect for NOW, because they’re flirting with endorsing polygamy as a valid “alternative lifestyle”.”

    Thanks Agent Bootsie for that update. That is great news. Yes it is a valid “alternative lifestyle”. Seriously Bootsie, the bottom line is, who I sleep with or even have chilren with, whether 1 or 3 women and whether I call them girlfriends, spiritual “ho’s”, baby mamas, or “wives” and whether my personal motivation is “gettin’ it on” or “flying spaghetti monster commands it”, or I’m a mormon, muslim, pagan, or earthchild…same goes if 3 men want to share a women because they worship the goddess Aphroditie or whatever deity they so choose…This is none of your business just as it is none of my business to dictate to you who you can sleep with or have conjugal relations with! Get it? Maybe the NOW women will knock some sense into you, from what I understand they aren’t into “keeping sweet”.

  409. Sheesh – I wasn’t aware that NOW supports the practice of polygamy. I guess I need to take some time to find out more about their agenda.

    Duane thinks he’s got one up on you. What a tool.

  410. Sheesh Boots – I wasn’t aware that NOW supports the practice of polygamy. I guess I need to take some time to find out more about their agenda.

    Duane thinks he’s got one up on you. What a tool.

  411. nearthecreek,

    I did not say that they “do support it”, I said they are “flirting with the idea”. Let’s keep things real clear on what I’ve alleged, k?

    Phyllis Chesler, a noted feminist, is a member of N.O.W., and does NOT support this flirty position what-so-ever, having experienced the pain of Muslim polygamy herself.

    You can read more about her here:


    I don’t give two hoots who sleeps with whom. I begin to care greatly, when who you sleep with affects innocent children, brought into the world by the act. The act, btw, is designed to make children, in case you were ignorant of that fact, especially within the FLDS and other groups.

    I would have never considered myself a “feminist” before becoming involved in this cause. N.O.W. has other positions that bother me as a conservative, such as support for unrestricted access to abortion, throughout ALL nine months of a pregnancy, for any reason you like. Wake up one morning mad at the daddy, go abort the kid, even if you’re due tomorrow. They support that!

    I do consider myself a humanist, one who cares about the wellbeing of all human lives.

    The liberal agenda considers all cultures equal. I don’t agree with that position either. I happen to think my culture, here in America, is quite superior to the culture of other countries who don’t allow women to vote, get educated, have access to birth control, travel freely, choose their own life partner, or seek freedom from fanatical religious tyranny.

    If you want to send N.O.W. your dues and join, go for it! It is after all a free country.

    I intend to do everything I can to make sure it stays that way, and right now, I don’t see how sending them my money will help that cause.

    As for me? I will leave it up to the gals, such as Ms. Chesler, who are already members of the organization, to figure it all out.

  412. duane agnostic moral compass is always set to “SPIN” as proof that he is more freedom loving libertarian than anyone else in a structured and ordered community. Problem is his hypocrisy doesn’t extend to all people and at all times in egalitarian fraternity. He endorses ‘One Man Rule’, Child Brides, ‘Lost Boys’, child labor law violations, accomplice’s to rape, polygyny, committing felonies as an act of Civil Discord, holding citizenship in Canada/Mexico, Theocratic Tyranny and Divine Right of the Prophet as expressions of his warped version of Libertarian values.

  413. caJim,

    Thanks. I’m always REALLY impressed when someone can clearly define someone else’s indefensible views, without using profanity.

    That would have been way too hard for me;)

  414. For the hundredth time duane, it certainly does concern everyone when it has to do with abuses of women and children.

  415. CaJim there you go again with all this red herring crap.

    Take Joe Blow Steed, age 39, has 2 wives, married them when they were 19 and 18, first one married by Rulon, 2nd by Warren, 10 kids, his occupation is auto mechanic, wives work from home selling knick-knacks on ebay, take turns caring for the kids, he always kept out of the limelight, avoided controversy, obeyed all the rules, never raised hell or got involved in flds politics, says his prayers, good to wives, votes republican, not known outside of flds circles and his customers. Other than the heinious crime of polygamy, what is he guilty of? How is he and/or his wives bad people?

    You are making judgements about folks based on their choice of sexual partners and church affiliation, that is mean-spirited and wrong in my book.

  416. duane you choose to believe that this is all bigotry against polygamy and persecution for fundamentalist beliefs. You’re not really concerned about the religious values or fundamentalist teachings because your an practicing agnostic and all you really have to share is your worried more about a Police State gaining abusive power when you have chosen a FLDS Church that preaches and avows abusive powers. Why worry about the States actions when you have a law breaking fanatical sect of fundamentalists in your midst? Guess you live by the Libertarian axiom that the,”Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend”. Don’t look know duane but your Emperor doesn’t have on his robe, again. Just stand by for the trials duane when the real majority opinion forms national over ‘celestial’ marriage of minor teen girls get full Press & Public exposure, then you’ll see your ‘fundamental’ problem. Last summer your advice was that there was no real evidence or reason to investigate the YFZ Ranch? Wasn’t it duane? I am making judgments that bigamously marrying a minor girl breaks several laws together.I could care less what Faith they choose, unless that Faith encourages such felonious behavior as a religious tenet, then that church should answer for their role, as well. Warren can always say to his convicted cohorts that,”I may not have gotten you into the ‘Celestial’ Heaven but I did get you into Prison in Purgatory, Utah”!

  417. Joe Blow Steed is obviously a fictional character, so I will go along with the fictional premise that he’s a nice guy, with no intention of hurting anyone. You know what the say about intentions, duane, there’s a certain proverbial road paved with them.

    So polygamy doesn’t hurt anyone? If Joe Blow Steed is living in Colorado City, there is an 8 in 10 chance that at least one of his concubines is receiving food stamp dollars for herself and all of her children.

    That hurts me as a tax payer, duane.

    That hurts her, because one man cannot, or will not support all of his dependents. They have obviously proven that their system of living an “alternative lifestyle” puts women and children directly into poverty. Either that, or they have lied about their family’s true income and are committing fraud. Which one do you want to choose, because it can only be one, or the other?

    The two women he keeps in concubinage received the equivalent of an 8th grade education unless they were highly favored by one of the males in authority, and *allowed* to further their education. No female up there goes further in school than the male responsible for her will *allow*.

    Pressing the issue of wanting to further your education, once she is told “no”, is not going to keep her in the fold. She will either have to choose to go to Hell, and leave, or back off and do what they want her to.

    See? I kinda see that as mean spirited and wrong, too.

    Neither of these women will ever be *allowed* access to birth control. Each one will be forced to give birth to children in rapid succession, all the while, teaching the female children to be submissive, and the boys to take their rightful place in the domination of the *inferior* females.

    The American FLDS polygamy lab in Colorado City, Arizona has done us one huge favor. It has shown exactly what the U.N. has said you will find in every polygamous culture anywhere in the world.

    Poverty of women and children [like I said, you choose one, poverty or fraud?]
    Child brides = pedophilia of female children
    Restriction on birth control
    Restriction on choice of life partner
    Restriction on travel
    Restriction of education

    Even if Colorado City were a town of Muslims practicing polygamy, you would find exactly those same results.

    His concubines never chose him or the FLDS religion. They were unfortunate enough to be born and programmed for it.

    What Joe is doing is breaking the law. I don’t see prosecution for law breaking as cruel, insensitive, mean or wrong. I do, however, see something terribly cruel, insensitive, mean and wrong in the above list, or in raising your children to break these laws as well.

    Any abuse is a cycle. The perpetrators usually start out as victims [born into cultural polygamy], and then complete their abusive cycle by becoming the abuser [practicing polygamy].

    Polygamy is no different from any other abuse cycle, duane, and last time I checked, abuse is not a religion, or a constitutional right.

    I’m sure there are polygamous families where some of these things *never* happen.

    I am also unconvinced that *all* slave owner relationships were inherently, inevitably abusive. In fact, I have great historical proof that this was not the case.

    I also believe, however, that legal slave owner relationships and the acceptance of the cultural practice of slavery led to a hotbed of horrific abuse cases. Should the government have simply regulated the treatment of slaves better, rather than criminalized their ownership? After all, duane, many slave owners used the bible as a justification for their buying, selling and owning of other human beings… Did we trample on their religious liberty when we emancipated all those American slaves?

  418. Most marriages in the FLDS were not underage, of the ones that were underage, most would have been legal if they were monogamist and obtained a marriage license. Pedophilia is defined by attaction to pre-pubescent children, of course you are defining in an arbitrary manner which varies from state to state as well as Canada, Netherlands and other Western industrialized countries. What would constitute your definition of “pedophila” in Arizona is perfectly “normal” in Texas, What would be “pedophilia” in Texas is perfectly “normal” in Michigan. IMO a distinction without a factual difference. the term “pedophilia” in this case being used as a verbal device to inflame hatred. Warren Jeffs and MJ were an anomaly and we have yet to determine if he had sex with her-I seriously doubt it but if he did, then he is the offender not the FLDS as a whole. The Welfare issue has been investigated countless times in Texas and UT/AZ, not a single person has been arrested for fraud that I know of. In Texas, no one was drawing welfare-nada…nothing.

    Antebellum slavery is an interest of mine so I know something about it. Most slave owners treated their slaves quite well, often they were better fed than Northern factory workers, they worked long hours but so did the average yeoman farmer. Many slaveowners sought to be popular among their slaves, most weren’t like Simon Legree. What slaves hated the most was that the system was backed by force and they were totally subservient. When Northern armies invaded the south and were encamped near a plantation during the civil war, in all likelyhood a master and his wife would soon notice that all their slaves were disappearing. Another thing, why were slave patrols necessary in the antebellum south?
    How many women took the offer of freedom when LE and CPS “rescued” them?, how about Colorado city? sure some have left, attrition of a fundie religious sect is to be expected but it seems the number of “escapees” are few and far between, where is the mass exodus. Many have “escaped” Catholicism, Pentecostal, and other “normal” fundie religions.

    I also believe in female equality, they have as much right to be a teacher, nurse, emt or accountant as they do to be a stay at home mother who desires to have lots of children.

    My mother-in-law had 9 children in Mexico, my wife said she enjoyed getting pregnant and having a baby every other year, do you have a problem with that?

  419. No, duane, the only thing I have a problem with is you being an appologist for abusers.

    You are correct, no one at the YFZ was on assistance. These guys are the elite chosen ones of their master, and they are funded by the rejects in Colorado City.

    But if you can convince Texas to give them 50 years of “peace”, I will guarantee you that they will all be on the dole like poor Colorado City.

    The poor rejected people of Colorado City wouldn’t believe us when we told them Warren had abandoned them and moved his operation to Texas. There was absolutely nothing we could say to make them believe that Warren, or anyone else was in fact, in Texas.

    They’ve had to slowly and painfully figure each part out.

    One of my all time favorite movie quotes came from COAL MINER’S DAUGHTER, when Loretta said to her husband in frustration, “I ain’t stupid, I’m just ignorant! There’s a difference y’know!”

    Duane, I don’t think you’re stupid.

  420. Boots, your wasting your time on duane. Nothing you could say would make a difference. This site and your site are full of documented evidence, he refuses to see, or look at. Your breath and your time is more valuable than spending it or using it on duane.

  421. All human beings are worth my time, dd. Even if Duane never sees the truth, there is the chance that someone reading this will see and suddenly “know”, and that does make it all worthwhile.

    Duane and people like him can’t ever hurt me.

    Thanks for the encouragement you and everyone else here has given me. It does mean a lot to me.

  422. these dictations are not much use without collaboration by the parties whom they are the subject of. Most of what is covered is not illegal. For example, Warren mentioning that such and such is being excommunicated, the reason why is not stated in many instances. If he offers the “wives” another priesthood holder if they want to stay in the church and they agree, no crime being committed regardless of whether you or I disagree…not our problem. Since you want to make it your problem and attempt force, they will close ranks and be even more dedicated to their religious ideals. Brute force never works, just look at Iraq, we offer them “freedom”, they blow us up, they dont want us there and we lose 4500 soldiers, we can’t force our values on others, never worked, never will. Glad to see we are withdrawing.

    Oh about antebellum slavery, the slaves were taught from day one that their lot in life was to serve white folks, complete and utter “brainwashing”, didn’t work out that well. As I said, they left their plantations when the oppty. presented itself in spite of lifetime indoctrination.

    kdee, you are sorely misguided and your efforts to drive around the country and incite hatred against this “ungodly” culture, efforts to force mormon plygs to conform to your personal moral code will end in abject failure.
    Another thing, Joe steed with 2 wives, He works 40 hrs., wife 2 works 40 hours, wife is stay aht home. Family income may well be sufficient, load spread, Joe and wife come home from work, assist the housewife, especially on weekends..totally doable.

    The welfare rate is very high in urban ghettos. Colorado city is not a hotbed of economic activity, the men mostly work out of town and travel extensively, no one willing to invest locally since property rights are currently in limbo, that goes a long way to explain the relatively low incomes in the area. Their incentive to live there among their own people must be very great in light of the various hate campaigns directed against them as a whole.

  423. Everyone keeps saying that the FLDS at YFZ were not receiving welfare assistance. Guess it depends on your definition of welfare. There have been reported cases of residents at YFZ receiving medicare/medicaid this is public taxpayer assistance. How many receive ssi disability? This is also public taxpayer assistance. How many “husbands” at YFZ have wives left in Short Creek receiving food stamps and welfare, medicare/medicaid and ssi disability? The welfare checks may not have been coming from the state of Texas but how many residing at YFZ were benefitting from public taxpayer assistance from other states or the federal government?

    The FLDS can put any spin on words that they want but when it is all investigated how many were truely NOT receiving public taxpayer assistance in some form or another?

  424. Boots,
    Don’t get too paranoid by traveling with Flora. And don’t go around thinking that the boogeyman is on your tail. This is not always the case, although Flora might think that it is.

  425. I don’t believe in the boogyman, so no problems.

    I’ll tell you what I do believe in though, I believe in freedom and equality for all people in this country, including women.

    “…efforts to force mormon plygs to conform to your personal moral code will end in abject failure.”

    Not worried about anyone’s personal moral code, duane, just in seeing criminals prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

    I believe in Texas, and her people.

    Know what duane?

    They eyes of Texas are upon you, and you’ll never stop us.

    Get used to it.

  426. duane – I think you mean corroboration, rather than collaboration. I think most people would disagree that they arent worth much. I have seen no claims that they are fake or that they misrepresent what actually happened or even the slightest hint that they are anything other than exactly what they appear to be.

    Although they describe many events that are not crimes .. they also describe several crimes in exacting detail. And surely even you would not disagree that events can be shocking and harmful and wrong, even if those events are not crimes that can be prosecuted.

    I predict that the dictations will be admitted into evidence in the criminal trials, at least in Warren’s trial and in the others’ as well, if they’re relevant. There are ways to have them authenticated without having the author verify their contents or affirm each event described in the writings. I do not believe that the dictations are even needed to prove the crimes for which the men are indicted .. there is other evidence that is plenty strong enough for convictions. Perhaps the dictations will be admitted in sentencing as evidence of prior bad acts

  427. It’s not true that none of the residents of YFZ were on public assistance .. while they may not be receiving benefits in Texas, there are residents of the YFZ Ranch who were still claiming their legal residence as Arizona or Utah and receiving government assistance from those states.

    All of the children who were taken into custody received medicaid. I believe that some continued to have medicaid coverage even after their cases were nonsuited.

  428. Hey Boots,

    We don’t know each other, but I’ve been following the arrival of the FLDS since the first aerial shots of the property were posted. Long before the raid/rescue attempt. I don’t post very often here (or at the Salt Lake Trib blog) but I DO read, (and have read for some time) MANY sources for information on this cult and it’s activities.

    Ultimately, like you, I believe that Polygamy is Abuse. (for all the many reasons that have been stated/related/prosecuted)

    We do, however, have some differences and I’m addressing you personally in hopes of pointing out that your obvious bias against liberals may be costing you some very valuable support.

    I assure you I’m nothing like duane, but I am, as you inelegantly put it, ” a sandal wearing freak” — or rather, I’m a native Texan, Dallas born and raised, Fine Arts major, now living in the Hill Country and I do wear my Birks while gardening parsley, sage, rosemary & thyme.

    I’m the type of gal who would show up for Flora’s book signing, buy two copies — AND toss you a $20 for coffee on your road trip.

    Fly your ‘conservative flag’ all you wish, but please refrain from randomly bashing the moderate left. You already have ONE battlefront (the good cause) and you’d have more sister-soldiers if you moderated your comments.

    I hope you take this note in the spirit in which it was written — support, with a little advice. Hope your road trip is safe and successful.

  429. I think I will weigh in also. I am a knee jerk yellow dog liberal. All the liberals I know are appalled at FLDS and cringe at the thought of ever having polygamy legalized. I would never ever consider Duane to be a liberal ….. There should be a different word for the “let me do what I want to do and leave me alone people” than liberals.
    Liberals in my group are consumed by the guilt of knowing that they have been overly blessed in life by families, education, and material wealth – they do not know why they should have been so blessed when there are such obvious disparities – and so many other good hard working people of all races who are not. Yes liberals do support gay marriage for the most part – but that is a union of two equal consenting adults who were born that way. You can not claim to have been born with a polygamous gene.

  430. “You can not claim to have been born with a polygamous gene.”

    Which is why they marry the little girls, before they grow a brain!

  431. duane

    Its none of your business how many child molesting Polygo-fanatics Texas puts in prison.

    Unless you are one too.

  432. Maybe we will see Brookes new Blog Post




  433. Whoa TexasMom do I know you? My eldest living pair of Birks is about 28 years old, rebuilt once in San Francisco.

    That first publication of the partial bishop’s list did it for me, proof enough that the old wives and children were stil back at the Creek with ahhhh no visible means of support beyond working taxpayers’ backs.

    FLDS we are not your cattle.

  434. Personally, I don’t believe this issue can be catagorized in terms of liberal, conservative. I know many liberals, conservatives and libertarians who consider this whole issue sick, perverted and should be stopped.
    People from all political realms have crossed their political beliefs on the side of stopping child abuses, women abuse, religious abuse.
    We can all , at least most of us agree, it is wrong!

  435. Texasmom,

    I’m glad you’ve kept up with the issue by reading, truly I am. I applaud you for educating yourself to the issues.

    I’d like to apologize to any liberal who is or has been offended by my remarks, from time to time. I would never in a zillion years turn down the offer of a hand extended in true friendship.

    I haven’t been reading about this case for the last four years, I’ve been eating, sleeping, breathing and living it.

    I’m not a member of any party. I left the pachyderm club over a decade ago, and have never returned. I have some very dear friends who are sandal wearing, yellow dog Democrats. I also have some very dear friends who are gay and lesbian. I like going to both the Democrat and Republican County picnics every year, and here are my observations: Republicans have better organization, BBQ, decorations, and entertainment. Democrats sing a better chorus of Kum Ba Ya, serve cheap hot dogs, colder beer and make everyone feel more “at home”. I don’t have any problems with a real American freedom loving liberal. I may disagree with some of their policies, but it doesn’t mean I don’t downright adore them as friends and human beings. I don’t have to agree with everything you stand for to love you.

    Most of the corrupt law enforcement, judges, and politicians up in Arizona are Republicans, billing themselves, and their inaction as “conservative”, which I find completely disgusting. I don’t see anything conservative about never prosecuting a soul up there for child abandonment or welfare fraud. Nothing.

    I am utterly guilty of sometimes pushing everyone too hard. I started writing feminist organizations years ago and have never had one response of support or solidarity. I mean it is an eerie sort of quiet.

    Eventually becoming frustrated, I started contacting conservative organizations, and got the same response, or I should say, lack of response. It seems everyone is too busy to think much about the negative ramifications to the future of women’s rights in this country, which polygamy will inevitably have, unless we start enforcing the law.

    I laughed when FLDS TEXAS said one day that I was “hard core”, because I do really have a magnet on the back of my truck that reads “HARDCORE TEXAN”. I don’t have a gun rack back there, but there is a cane pole ready to go if I ever need to pull over and fish.

    If you’re in the Hill Country, you may indeed know me, since I hosted the mid-day show at KVHC for almost four years.

    Ultimately, what I suppose I’m doing is trying to push all freedom loving people to examine where their philosophy might be just a tad off or inconsistent, such as N.O.W.’s subtle flirtations with embracing the “freedom” to practice polygamy. Texans seem to be living in an FLDS vacuum, where they imagine that these gross abuses to women and children have only been happening within that group. Not true. The polygamy problem is so widespread up there in Utah, Arizona and Nevada that a myriad of different polygamous groups are churning out victims like there is no tomorrow. It is NOT just the FLDS. The YFZ is not a mushroom that came from “nowhere” and popped up overnight.

    At the first hint of pressure from law enforcement, they started spreading out across the country and they are all coming to a theater near you, soon. The question is, will you allow it to sit and fester, worried about their “religious freedoms”, or will you stand up and say, “Not in my state. I won’t quietly see this done to women and children here”.

    I shudder to think what might have happened to the anti-slavery movement in this country if we had mass media back then. Because I can guarantee you that if we had, we would have had slave owners trotting out slaves on talk shows, to talk about how happy they were with their lives down on the plantation, and how they weren’t hurting anyone and just wanted to be left alone to do their thang according to the constitution.

    Does anyone find it even a tad ironic that the only feminist support we have received so far comes from the feminists of the Middle East? Like I said, there is no vacuum here. If we decriminalized polygamy, thousands of Muslim American women will rapidly be put right into concubinage, just as they are in their countries of origin.

    Our AAAP site has been getting some really strange and unexpected results. I’ve got some potential “runners” here, and oddly enough they aren’t practicing fundamentalist Mormonism. They’re Muslim American women. Do you think for one moment that if they teeter over the edge and want help getting out, that we won’t be there to help? Do you think that the polygamy practiced by the FLDS is the only threat here?

    This issue has enough room to offend all of us conservatives, and liberals. It’s got everything it needs to push all of our buttons because it involves politics and religion.

    I know while I’m sitting here, blowing as hard as I possibly can on my whistle, the shrillness of it is going to offend a lot of people. The idea of blowing it, though, is to make someone pay attention and take some positive action.

    If I knocked on your door at 2am, standing on your porch with a burqa clad woman and asked you to help me hide her, until I can get her someplace permanent and safe, are you going to stand there and say, “Well, are you a liberal or a conservative? Are you going to check to see if I’m wearing the right footwear? I don’t think so. I think you’d help her no matter what was on my voter’s registration or on my feet.

    This particular tent is big enough for all of us, as long as we care about women’s freedom. I don’t see that as being a liberal or conservative issue. I see it as an American issue.

  436. Boots you have never offended me, Iam passionate about this issue, but have never taken personal action on it, till after the raid. I like many other people knew it was happening, but not to the extent that was brought forth.

  437. Thanks DD. I do completely understand where Texasmom is coming from. It’s really hard to explain what I saw up there, the human wreckage caused by this mess is mind boggling.

    People here don’t want to believe the kind of corruption I’m talking about up there is real. They want to think that the Mohave County Attorney, Sheriff, and judicial branch are going to help us. They don’t want to hear the extent of the nasty corruption going on.

    After the YFZ rescue, the San Angelo Times board was burning up. Flora asked me to get on there and post, so I did. The administrators were so freaked out by the comments, [hopefully not mine] they had to shut it down. Do you know what one of the last things said by a pro-polygamist, to me, on that board was, before the shutdown?

    When I told the guy they could expect to be prosecuted if they kept coming down here to Texas to try and practice polygamy, he told me that Texas had just started the next civil war in this country.

    I wrote back, “Excuse me, but did I just hear you threaten to make war on the State of Texas?”

    Wake up folks, please wake up.

  438. Texasmom,

    One more thing I wanted you, personally, to know. Any lawyer will tell you that intent is the hardest thing to prove, but also probably the most important piece of a case. It is very hard to prove “intent”.

    But I want you to know something about my personal “intent” in some of the remarks I have made about being a conservative.

    My true intent was to rattle conservatives by being provocative, not liberals.

    The Republican Party, not the Democratic Party, is the one harboring the polygamist sympathizers at every level: Oran Hatch, Mitt Romney, Michael Leavit, Mark Shurtleff, along with several top FBI and CIA officials Republicans all.

    Especially when I posted that provocative statement a few days ago to Anon, about my being a Tea Party attending conservative.

    In other words I was basically running around their tent, turning over their tables and saying, “How dare you claim to be the party of Lincoln and secretly support this, you PIGS!”

    The Tea Party I went to was in San Antonio, with Glen Beck [Main steam LDS]. I was wearing my AAAP T-shirt that said, “POLYGAMY IS ABUSE”, and handing out flyers to the crowd. More than one woman waved it away, looking at me like I was a snake. There were many mainstream LDS there, for sure.

    And try as they may to tell us all that polygamy has nothing to do with the LDS church, someone please explain to me why in the very areas of the country I’ve been talking about, which are up to 70% main steam LDS, the corruption to polygamy runs SO deep?

    Yeah, I would climb onto Saint Willie’s bus any day, before I took a ride from Mitt Romney.

    You conservatives had better watch what you’re doing, because you have a LOT of members who are looking forward to collecting concubines legally someday.

  439. Boots well spoken and strongly expressed. the fact that the “Do Nuthin’Politicians” in Utah & Arizona have allowed this bigamy to sprawl in their midst is their own fault. The fact that they now, through inept legal actions, have caused the FLDS Dispora to spread into Nevada, South Dalota, Colorado, Idaho and Texas is inexcusable and I would suggest liable, as well. If no UEPTrust settlement can be reached the greater prospect of foisting Short Creekers into additional ‘Lands of Refuge’ will become a broadening threat to other Rocky Mountain States like Washington, Oregon, Wyoming and New Mexico. Your attempts to sound the alarm have at least garnered the attention of the respective Counties leaders and placed the State Legislatures on notice to this crime wave sect. The present spread of this sects enclaves into other State’s counties is one of the most condemning aspects against inept Attorney General’s of Utah and Arizona.

  440. caJIM,

    There is a difference between being inept and corrupt. I think maybe Texas should talk to the Lost Boys to see if any of their parents were on the YFZ. If so, can Texas sue Arizona and Utah, for failing to enforce the law in their own states, and maybe recoup some of our costs for dealing with the issue?

  441. Boots the 550+residents at the YFZ Ranch didn’t drop from the sky, aren’t they all Utah/Arizona residents in origin, maybe a few from Canada? I don’t believe Warren left Short Creek because he saw the “Light” but rather that he felt the heat. It’s funny to read Ranger L. Brooks Long’s second sworn search warrant for the YFZ Ranch were he recounts Bishop F. Merril Jessops admission, after allowing the first search warrant authorities to enter the ranch, that there was closer to 250 residents at the ranch than the 125 residents he had reported to Sheriff Doran. We now know even his admission was well below the truth and/or the good Bishop had no clue how many Utahans were living there.

  442. cajIM,

    Yes, they are all from Colorado City, AZ and Hildale Utah. There was a Canadian girl there during the rescue, “visiting family”. I believe she was sent back to Canada in short order. Maybe someone else here knows more about her case. I think she was a minor.

    One of the huge frustrations I had, in watching the national media “attempt” to cover this story was their blatant ignorance of the facts.

    In one “exclusive interview” with several of the mothers, I watched an interviewer ask one of them if they had ever lived out in “the real world” before choosing to live at the ranch. I sat there stunned as the woman said something like, ‘Oh yes, I’ve lived out in the real world, but we love the ranch’.

    I watched in horrified fascination as the interviewer accepted that answer as a fact, never even bothering to educate herself on Colorado City, which I hardly think should be called “the real world”.

    After all, this is the community where they all ran out into the streets clapping and singing for joy when they heard the Twin Towers were hit by terrorists on 9/11.

    So she came from the real world, huh? The interviewer was too ignorant to call her on it.

  443. Carolyn Jessop knew before she left flds warren was planning on moving people to “camps” as she called it. He was talking about that in 2003. She said it terrified her, If she didn’t leave when she did, she and her children or just her children would be taken and put in a camp somewhere.

  444. Carolyn was fortunate enough to have been favored enough, and allowed to pursue an education. The triggers that make women run are different for each one.

    For Pam Black, taking away her books and threatening to take her children, for Flora, sexual abuse she somehow knew in her gut was wrong, for Mary Mackert it was a neighbor in SLC touching her arm, for the two Fawns, fear of being given to old men.

    I don’t think anyone can really quantify what makes some people, even essentially free of outside influence, to simply know something is “wrong”.

    My friend Heide escaped from East Germany when she was 19 years old. She said the whole time she was growing up under communist rule she simply knew it was all a lie.

    The one thing the Texas children have going for them is that they have seen it is a lie that “everyone on the outside hates you”.

    I’ll also mention something else about Carolyn, she was lucky to get to Dan Fischer, and then straight to the AG, ONLY, because she was married to someone in power, or close to power, and she got immediate help.

    That’s just not the real history of most of those who left. Most of those who left never got help from anyone but advocates like Flora jessop, or immediate family that had already left or been kicked out. I’ve talked to several women who swear they made abuse reports to the Mohave County Sheriff’s Department, only to be told later that no such report was ever filed.

    Over the years, the Colorado City Police Force regularly caught women trying to leave, only to bring them back. Carolyn knew that, too, which is why so was terrified of running out of gas before her brother could find her and the kids.

    Much has been made of the fact that many women return to the FLDS, including Betty, Carolyn’s oldest daughter.

    CLUE: How do you get instant star status, favored treatment and special favors from the FLDS? You do exactly what Betty has done, return saying the real world is terrible, you’ve seen it all, and they have the truth.

    What do you want to bet that Betty eventually gets assigned to be someone’s “First wife”? Ahhhh…the most powerful position an FLDS woman with any smarts at all can ever have.

  445. Texas got invaded by only 1000 or so of these polygamists and look at all the problems and expense they caused. If they break loose from colorado city en masse, no telling how many communities and towns will go down the tubes or suffer financially. I know some areas in Colorado the state, are already up in arms over the presence of these people. I live in corpus christi texas which is far from Eldorado but it is still chilling to imagine a bunch of these people moving into my neighborhood.
    I feel sorry for those folks whose communties they have invaded.

  446. i think the biggest problem behind the raid on the ranch was that cps was totally overwhelmed. i don’t believe they ever in their wildest imagination thought there would be 400+ children. since they had been told there were 125 people on the ranch, they probably had the though of maybe 50 kids to check through to find sara. if you’re only looking for girls out of 50 that would narrow it down and in a certain age bracket that would narrow it down even farther.

    in truth, the ranch is under one fence and has one mailing address and 1 PO box. none of the residents use any address except the po box or the main address on cr 300. there are no unit numbers or apartment numbers. that’s what sets them apart from a typical residental neighborhood. also, they have no utility bill or other identifying information to show that where they are living is their specific location, because the prophet might wake up tomorrow and have a revelation of fruit basket turnover for the housing situation.

  447. Greetings all,

    Hello said: “Liberals in my group are consumed by the guilt of knowing that they have been overly blessed in life by families, education, and material wealth – they do not know why they should have been so blessed when there are such obvious disparities…”

    sounds like we have similar friends 🙂

    RE: Birkies.

    My last pair finally disintegrated after 20 solid years of service. Told my best friend/old-college-roomie (a real-deal flower child) and two days later a fed-x appeared — with a spanking-new pair — classic-style, brown leather, two straps. At 45yrs., I expect to be retired by the time I need a new pair. (HA)

    deputydog1 said: “Personally, I don’t believe this issue can be categorized in terms of liberal, conservative.”

    Neither do I. My note to Boots was concern for her optimum “gain” as someone seeking support. Just observation and advice from a would-be friend.


    Hiya Boots,

    First, I want to Thank You for taking the time reply in such a thorough manner. I would, in turn, reply in greater detail to each of your points, but, when in agreement — there’s not much to debate, eh?

    I knew when I wrote the initial note that you wouldn’t have the advantage of ‘tone and inflection’ and thus might interpret it in any number of ways. Your response was measured and thoughtful — and I thank you for that.

    I’d like to add — assure you (and others) that I was NOT “clutching my pearls and gasping ‘that conservative woman gave me tha’ Vapors~~~. plunk.” hahaha!

    Again, we don’t know each other, so you wouldn’t be aware that I’ve spent the last 20-odd years working in design/marketing and PR. (corporate) In the same way that my dear friend, Jacque, a text editor, critiques and corrects MENUs when we go out to eat (hee, hee, really -she does, with a pen) I have a habit of giving people unsolicited-marketing-advice (TM).

    Your replies indicate that you understand I wasn’t giving you a finger-waggin’. (but I did want to offer a little more backstory 🙂

    There are so many polarizing issues when gathering support, for….well, anything — the strongest successes are realized by honing everything down to the essentials… the facts — and solutions. (EMPHASIS on offered solutions)

    Every time an *aside* is tossed in…and I swear I’m not picking on you……

    … I just want to place your words in a PR-perspective, which you have noted, more than once, is VERY powerful…
    (from your website)
    “I suppose, I’ve failed to attend Vassar, Brown, Berkley, or NYU, and abort a baby or two along the way to protect my academic career and prove I’m worthy of being considered a real woman.”

    I understand your frustration — lack of response — but this type of statement/letter satisfies NOTHING concerning your goal of garnering support for Polygamy Abuse. It’s a distraction. (quite probably a very healthy-vent, which I have no issue with…at all — but I’m trying to help here 🙂

    …and as your unsolicited-marketing-advice-sister (TM), I offer, warmly and sincerely, that you please consider taking a *fresh* perspective on how you go about ‘upturning the money-changer’s tables’.

    Lastly, you said: “I know while I’m sitting here, blowing as hard as I possibly can on my whistle, the shrillness of it is going to offend a lot of people. The idea of blowing it, though, is to make someone pay attention and take some positive action.”

    Keep blowing that whistle, Boots! — I applaud you for it. At the same time, reflect on how “often” people are induced to positive-action through being obliquely derided or blatantly jabbed with a verbal-spork. But enough of that —- really

    Let’s get on with the Real Bid’ness — exposing the abuse — and enacting legislation with TEETH.

    I’ll most likely be at Flora’s book signing and you may expect to be “hugged”, because you know that’s how we do it ’round here.

    Warm regards and a

    p.s. I don’t want to distract the forum with a further dialogue on political leanings – though, obviously you are entitled (and welcomed) to respond. I cheerfully concede the “last word” to you. 🙂 ….then let’s talk about ….hmmmmmm….where does the money come from to provide shelter for women who want to leave?

    Since duane is such an advocate of “how FREE women are to leave”, perhaps he/she/it can provide some documentation of the resources available. A nice excel-spreadsheet with phone & email contacts would be great. m’kay?

  448. Note to self: when typing a sideways smiley – it appears as an icon – kinda annoying. admitted. 😉

  449. Texasmom,

    Thanks also for your thoughtful reply. Yes, the open letter to feminists was indeed a “vent” as you called it.

    All groups face this problem from time to time. For instance any main stream Jew will tell you that they don’t consider “Messianics” to be “real Jews”, but I remember years ago when a Messianic temple in Dallas was targeted, repeatedly, by neo-nazi [may their names be erased] vandals, and the Jewish Defense League, did indeed come to their defense.

    The energetic poke was designed to point out that this is a womans’s issue, so why won’t they help us with it? Aren’t these women, and even conservative women, your “sisters” too?

    It was a 50/50 shot, since half the women in the country don’t feel well represented by most feminist organizations anyway.

    The few small donations we have received so far have come from women who loved, and very much identified with the letter. So like I said, 50/50 shot there;)

    You’ve made some very excellent points and I may consider “retiring the letter” or writing another one that has a more inclusive feel for the site. I do appreciate the advice, and my ultimate goal is to garner as much support as possible, from any concerned human being.

    Thanks for being open to dialogue, because that’s my idea of what real sisterhood should be. Building bridges of understanding and compassion is going to take a lot of work from us all.

    Ditto on the hug, sugar, can’t wait to see ya!

  450. Y’all need to leave Vassar out of the discussion. 😉

  451. I actually got a very nice response from a Vassar girl after it was first posted, lol. She was a sweetheart.

    I’ve had lovely support from some of my lesbian cop friends in LA. They claim after retirement they intend to load up their RV and head up to Colorado City to “liberate” the women, lol. ‘

    ‘Course maybe that was all the vodka we were drinking that night talking, considering we were also singing karioki ::snort::

  452. Texasmom and Boots,
    You both have good points. The problem is where do you start?
    First of all, believe it or not, Congress and legislatures in every state don’t see this as a major problem and secondly most don’t want to touch it with a ten ft. pole.
    Some may be against what’s happening with Polygamy, the problem however is any politician is more afraid of being voted out of office than trying to pass a bill that would help stop abuses of children or put their career on the line to step up.

    Then each state has laws that aren’t being enforced that deal with child abuses period. We just saw how out of the blue, the CPS cases in Texas suddenly fell apart because somoene above the Commissioner of Health and Human Services, decided to stop the investigations.

    Until this country gets extremely serious about protections of childrens rights, we are banging our heads against a brick wall.

  453. Wait wait wait.

    Boots – you’re not equating Vassar grads and lesbians are you? (although certainly there’s some overlap ). I’m a Vassar alum and solidly in the hetero category – conservative Republican at that. I was like the freakshow attraction in college 😀

    There are always stereotype busters 😉

  454. Hey Anon, I attended a private all girls catholic college. Talk about freakshow attraction, I was non-catholic and frimly in the hetro category, double whammy, LOL!

  455. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery. – Benjamin Disraeli

  456. Hi all,

    Deputydog said: Congress and legislatures in every state don’t see this as a major problem and secondly most don’t want to touch it with a ten ft. pole.

    I think you’re absolutely right. Ironically, that’s what got Texas involved in this…what I’ll call “ooze-over”.

    I have some theories, though admittedly I’m not as fully informed in some laws as I’d like to be:

    1) Most politicians are placed in office based on their position on evident/existing issues within their constituency. They’re expected to resolve those particular issues, not latch on to peripherals — which polygamy is perceived to be – unless you’re in Schleicher County (or UT AZ and obviously have a history of letting it slide)

    2) Time and money are parceled out to the evident needs of the constituency. Again, unless you’re in the above mentioned areas, why would a politician assign a staff, or even a single person, to investigate polygamy and draft proposals?

    3) To my knowledge, Texas does NOT require oversight of home-schooling. In my estimation, this would be an invaluable tool to help any number of children receiving less than their full-measure of education. (caveat: I have a neighbor who home-schools and she is brilliant at it, but is she the norm?) If there were oversight – perhaps, at last, the FLDS children would be assured a full 12 years of study.

    However, my experience is that home-schoolers are typically very religious people and to attempt to place oversight would kick-up vehement response from ALL the religions who home-school. Another reason why politicians won’t touch it.

    Another possibility is that many politicians have strong religious affiliations of their own. If a legislator is from a strongly Baptist background and constituency (I’m using Baptist, because the LDS’ers seem to latch on to them) then any proposals which investigate FLDS/polygamy will be seen as an attack by The Baptist Convention. I’m pretty sure they’re more concerned with abortion and gay marriage…much more high profile.

    Getting politicians involved is certainly an uphill climb. I would say that the best method of bending someone’s ear is to have a First Hand Witness/victim speak directly to legislators. However, the majority of such people currently available are NOT from Texas…which, I think, would be desired for a Texas politician to take notice. sigh. I’ll have to give it more thought. Ideas anyone?

  457. anon and LadySadie, you’re cracking me up! Here I thought I was breaking a stereotype by pointing to my lesbian friends [who think I’m just the cutest little redneck they know], but you both got me beat!

    deputydog, you’re absolutely right. I want children’s human rights protected. There are rights that some don’t even know they have.

    I know of a 15-year-old girl in my neighborhood, whose parents have basically just dumped her off at a friends house for the past two months, and she isn’t in school…

    I sit here thinking, dang, she’s not in any immediate physical danger, but the danger being done to her future is horrible. So do I call an already overburdened CPS and report this? A huge part of me says ‘yes”, because I consider this an abuse of her life, and her right to be an educated human being…but where would they send her, a group home, foster care?

    Yeah, we all have to think about this, on many levels.

    Disraeli was right, just like the Jesuits were right:
    “Give me the child till the age of seven
    and I will show you the man.”

    And so was WW Ross who wrote ‘… the hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world’

    Let each state decide how harshly they want to prosecute the crime of polygamy. It depends on how strongly their citizens feel about protecting women and children from the effects of the cultural disaster.

    After the SCOTUS Judges grossly misinterpreted the constitution, and instead legislated from the bench, making the Dread Scott decision, many Northern states simply said, “Uh, no, not here”.

    That civil revolt, by an educated populace, made small portions of safe pockets for runaway slaves.

    I would like Texas to consider making this a much safer place for any run away concubine, or any child unfortunate enough to have been born into polygamy, which let’s be honest folks, is just basically an organized crime family.

    From what I can tell, many organized crime families seem to be very, uh…religious. So what if they don’t have a Jersey accent or attend Saint Mary’s?

    Crime is crime, right?

    Don’t we as Texans have a right to punish crimes, as we see fit?

  458. Texasmom,

    The home school issue is a definite can o’ worms. I’m a huge proponent of home schooling, but you are right on a very fundamental level.

    Flora and I have been, and will be around this bush again, too. She hates it and wants it regulated. Her comment to me was, “I think they should have mandatory testing of home schoolers”.

    I said, “Whaoa, Flora, I’ve home schooled and a lot of wonderful people do it. I can tell you one thing right now; if you insist on testing home schoolers, when the great majority of those kids pass those test with flying colors, their parents are going to turn around to the government, who just forced the testing and say:

    “I’ll take my thirty thousand dollars back from you now [or whatever their particular school district spends to educate each child in the district]. A check will be fine, thanks”!

    That’s how they’ll feel about that. And I can’t say I would blame them one iota.

    I was at a campaign’s election party a few weeks ago and met a current home school mother. I asked if she belonged to any home school organization, and she in fact belongs to two. I told her about the issue and asked if I could come speak to their members, to get their input on what we could do to make sure home schooling was safe for all children. She seemed very receptive to the idea, but we haven’t touched base again, yet.

    I’ll try to contact her closer to the start of the school year.

    My point is, we do need to have this conversation, and it is going to be uncomfortable, but I think we at least have to start talking to the people it will effect the most, first.

    What do you think?

  459. LOL @ LadySadie. I think you win;)

  460. I have a slew of friends who home school and they also belong to several organizations for home schoolers. The ones Iknow are Baptist mothers. Im not, but they are great friends, and Ive been in their homes during sessions, weird they teach every subject the public schools do, and they teach very little religion, other than praying before they start their lessons and after the lessons are over. Two of my friends children took their SAT’S for college , did extremely well, one did so well, they offered her partial scholarship.
    Home Schooling is wonderful, but NOT if all you teach is doctrines of the covenanats, and Homemaking,teaching girls how to be slaves and trash collectors for their husbands. I don’t consider that an education.

    Im not sure having to take state tests is the answer, but why couldn’t each state set guidelines as to what subjects the kids need to be taught… Like English, Math, Science, History either state history or American History, or World Histroy?

  461. By the way the homeschoolers here all go on field trips together, like the zoo,or the planetarium, things like that, and most I know are involved in sports, like baseball, soccer.

  462. Yep, DD, when I spoke to that home school mother to ask about organizations she might belong to, I was shocked that one of them was in the very same one I had belonged to, almost 20 years ago. It is still going strong.

    It was FABULOUS. I had the field trip option at least once a week, to museums, historical marker tours, planetariums, plays and musicals. Group studies on anthropology, sociology, history, science, and math were part of the benefits, too.

    If I was weak in one subject, I could sign up and trade kids with another mother, who might be weak in one. I’d teach her kids English classes, and she would teach mine math. These groups really do take care of each other very well.

    Some colleges are literally fighting to get the better home schooled kids now, and scholarships are becoming plentiful.

    The vast majority of people, who choose home schooling, do so because they are great parents, very dedicated to their children’s educations. After home schooling my daughter for the second time in her life, for only six months in the 4th grade, I enrolled her in the public school for the first time [only private schools before that]. After testing her, she was skipped to the 6th.

  463. Whose bed have your boots been under…?

    Yes. Ma’am. I do think that’s what’s called hitting a nail on the head.

    The Republicans are afraid of their own shadow right now, how much more the potential loss of millions of mainstream LDS votes?

    Beck is already pushing defection to another party, though, he hasn’t named it yet.
    Wanna hear an interesting bit of info I just found?

    While I was at the Tea Party, I could not help but notice a huge banner being raised at the front of the crowd. The language seemed very familiar, yet nothing I’d ever read before. It read thusly:

    Let us fight the good fight.
    Let us go forward for our God,
    for our Wives,
    and for our Children
    and our Country,
    and for our Children’s future.

    It drove me nuts the whole time, because like I said, the language form seems familiar, yet I could not place it anywhere in my mind with an actual historical text.

    So 15 minutes ago, taking what words I could remember from the banner [I remembered them, because somehow, in that crowd, while reading it, I inexplicably got the creepy feeling looking at it, that I was suddenly around polygamists].

    Until 15 minutes ago, and some time spent with Google, I had no idea how right I was.

    When I had found the correct quote, it turned out to be on this site:
    Which had a quote, which I also Googled, because I’d never heard of any ‘book of Ether…”

    1. The Book of Ether
    The book of Ether is Moroni 2’s abbreviated account of the history of the jaredites, … on serving “the God of the land who is Jesus Christ” (Ether 2:12), … – 7k

    I’m just way too curious sometimes….:::sigh::

    Show me your friends and I’ll show you your future…

  464. Texasmom,

    I meant to credit your statement here, as being the one hitting the nail on the head.

    “Another possibility is that many politicians have strong religious affiliations of their own. If a legislator is from a strongly Baptist background and constituency (I’m using Baptist, because the LDS’ers seem to latch on to them) then any proposals which investigate FLDS/polygamy will be seen as an attack by The Baptist Convention. I’m pretty sure they’re more concerned with abortion and gay marriage…much more high profile.

  465. Thats awesome Boots! By the way, I have a couple of Gay friends who have been partners for over 25yrs. They never had a desire to adopt children at all. And they are really Great People. Im straight myself, but never can have enough friends 🙂

  466. I think in states like Washington, they are adopting, especially children no one else will touch with a 10 foot pole, and the results from what I understand have been wonderful so far.

  467. Hmm, Texasmom,maybe that explains, too, why not one Baptist church I’ve contacted about seeking shelter on the tour has ever returned any of my my calls?

    I was really hoping they were just too self centered to help a Jew, lol.

  468. Hey Boots ~

    re: “I was really hoping they were just too self centered to help a Jew, lol.”

    HA– That’s what you get…you…you… Jewess! No air-conditioned bus for you! (i.e. no soup for you) jesting, you know 😉

    I’ve only got a moment before I need to get back to my fundraiser project. (it’s a Mom’s life) So, I apologize if my thoughts are not fully formed.

    As for soliciting support from home school organizations: I can’t imagine any group, home school or otherwise, which would actively campaign to increase testing and oversight of THEMSELVES – especially if they currently enjoy virtually none whatsoever.

    My hope would be that any such requirements, if they ever happened, would benefit ALL children, but since this website is specific to FLDS, I’d ask, “What would be the intent of agency-oversight of home schooling for FLDS in Texas?”

    1) Are the children receiving a full spectrum curriculum as is identified for all other Texas home schoolers? (is there even such a document to specify?)

    2) What is the requirement for number of years completed? (again, for Texas) Is this determined by testing or actual years? Who does the testing? Basically, how many years, or academic points, does the state require is child to have? are the FLDS meeting this?

    3) What opportunities/contacts are home schooled children given to provide them access to higher education? university. It seems odd to ask — but can this be made a *requirement*?

    4) If oversight testers observe an underage pregnancy, are they allowed (or compelled) to report it? obviously this is sticky-wicket — but when children are kept in compounds, in the middle o’nowhere, how many opportunities are there observe them?

    5) This would never FLY — across the home schooling community — but a requirement to meet minimum standards for the parent-teacher’s ability to teach. (testing for parents)

    I’m the daughter of a career teacher, Eng. Lit., 43 years, head of the English dept, Texas Textbook Committee, etc…(sadly deceased, but in life, Phenomenal!) I’ll quote her, “With educating children, there are no go-backs or do-overs, you get one shot – don’t screw it up.” (she was a petite, firey-red-head…I think you can relate)

    ….back to work!

  469. txmom,

    I have to get some sleep. It has been a full day and I have a full day away from the desk tomorrow, still working but at least away from the desk.

    But pretty much the answer would be um…no, to all of that, and I don’t blame them.

    Will they get the check for all of that trouble? Because if they do, which would only be the fair thing, the public schools would empty in DROVES, and mommies would stay home with their kids, by the millions would be my bet.

    Nice job if you can get it.
    But holding them to the same standards as the school systems, which have jerked kids out of a decent education, by the DROVES, just wouldn’t cut it with these folks.

    That’s why I’d like to ask them their opinions. I believe they might surprise some people, if given the chance.

  470. Hey Boots,

    (wanted to mention I like your ‘nick’ – boots. the bootster, booter-nalia, the boot-inator~) … it’s a good handle.

    Hope you enjoy your desk-free day ~ let the sun shine !

    RE: home schooling: “Will they get the check for all of that trouble? Because if they do, which would only be the fair thing, the public schools would empty in DROVES, and mommies would stay home with their kids, by the millions would be my bet.”

    Interesting proposition.

    Why shouldn’t home school teachers/parents get a paycheck or a tax break?

    I know at least one neighbor who ABSOLUTELY should be paid for directing her intellect to her children (she’s a Gem), yet…given the option, millions (as you surmised) of people would choose to become ‘professional educators’…without degrees, or work experience — with NO oversight.

    there’s the rub.

    As a *for instance* …correct me if I’m wrong, but DuhProphet Warren was the head administrator of Alta Academy, yet never attended class beyond High School? …yes? The HIGHEST office of FLDS education administration was held by someone who may, or may not have, had the equivalent of a high school degree? This is where home schooling falls apart for me — NOT at the level of organization, integration and sophistication that you are speaking of.

    RE: “That’s why I’d like to ask them their opinions. I believe they might surprise some people, if given the chance.”

    I actually would not be surprised to find that many of your Home-Sch. resources are informed and organized, and I will look forward to hearing your report on how supportive they are.

    I’d like to shift-off the home school thing for a moment and ask if anyone knows what’s “up” with Warren’s 80 or so wives. It’s just a thing that tickles the back of my brain. 80 wives. and ensuing children.

    Where are they? What’s the plan…when baby-daddy is in jail for a decade (+) ? I’m intrigued.

  471. TexasMom – there was proposed legislation that was considered in the recent lege hearings that would provide increased opportunities to observe and monitor homeschooled children behind compound wallls. It pertained to compulsory education requirements and law enforcement’s rights to investigate in the home and interview children in connection with those requirements. I am not sure where the bill is … I believe it is out of House Committee and has gone to the Senate. You probably know that home-school requirements and standards in Texas are almost non-existent.

    About Warren’s wives – that’s a good question. Will they be reassigned? I can’t imagine His Prophet-ness allowing that.

    BTW – it’s being said that marriages are still taking place in secret and men are still being kicked out and divested of their families. Some say Willie Jessop took an underage bride in the last couple of weeks. He may be up to 5 now. And 4 Timpson men were recently kicked out and told to leave UEP land …and the directive didn’t come from the UEP fiduciary, who is the only one with the authority to do that.

  472. Alta Academy got State funding for the school and Warren Jeffs was principal, didn’t have any degree, nor did but a few teachers that taught at that school… Seems Utah allowed non degreed people to draw huge amounts for teaching with NO degrees from college.

    Okay Flds Texas,,,Willie getting another wife,,, just the thought makes me want to barf!!!

  473. Willie took an underage bride? Any more details about that? How old is she? Who are her parents? Do you know if she’s at R17 or is he keeping her elsewhere – maybe his home in Canaan Gap?

  474. Duane – sorry you feel that way.

  475. duane I personally don’t believe in abortion, but the doctor wasn’t doing anything illegally. Abortion is legal in this country.

    No one on this board wants violence in any way. You are rather ignorant however to compare the two.

  476. Duane,
    You “live on this board” (and every other FLDS discussion board that I’ve ever been to) and spend more time posting than just about any other person. So why do you spend yout time ‘living’ with people you have so much contempt for, when you are free to choose your own associations? Actually, that is a rhetorical question, I already know the answer.

    PS, nearthecreek, I haven’t read very many of your posts, but that was an hilarious comment. Thank you.

  477. Nothing to worry about here folks, nothing to see, just keep on with the good things you do. Pay no attention to duane deci skinwalker and his fantasy trips. Just another trip to la la land for deci duane.

  478. dood

    “Did you hear about the abortion doctor who was shot and killed in his church-Dr. George Tiller? FYI late term abortions are done when the woman’s life is in danger becasue of the pregnancy.”

    Or simply she took to long to make an appointment? WE fought a Civil war over slavery – perhaps this is an echo.

    Do you know what Abraham Lincoln said about polygamy?

  479. duaneh,, I wasn’t aware late term abortions were still legal?
    I know clinton administration allowed them but I thought, Bush Administration put a stop to them because in the last trimester a child can live outside the body. I read also , Dr Tiller would do late term abortions on women who were depressed, now, duane thats not a life threatening cause to murder a baby.

    Personally, most people would NOT kill someone like the doctor, unless they were MENTALLY unstable.
    Most Pro Life Organizations, do NOT,, NOT < NOT believe in harming anyone physically.

  480. Geez see what happens tho when you go around abusing babies and children?

    No one likes you. Some folks hate you. But thats the life and times for those who think they can hurt children and babies.

  481. nearthecreek — She’s 16 or 17 and no more details on Willie’s underage bride. I think it was in short creek or the gap.

  482. Well, screw the legal system. Lets just shoot whoever we don’t like.
    Willie’s underage bride…oh my gosh…did she have a baby? Hope she didn’t abort or we won’t be able to toss big bad willie in jail, nothing like having bouncing bundle of dna evidence.

    If she is in Canada or if they legally married in Canada, Texas, or a multitude of other states…no harm, no foul.

  483. Duane,

    Quick note from the road. Keep grasping at straws. Last poll I remembered was 51% of the country is now identifying themselves as “Pro-Life”. I think out of over a hundred and fifty million people, one homicidal maniac, although tragic, certainly doesn’t suggest any pattern of violence in the movement.

    The vast majority of people deplore this action, are embarrassed for the movement in general and have repeatedly condemned violence in any form as an “answer”.

    I don’t think the “Pro-Choice” people here are going to buy your line either, because like so many of your other thoughts, they just aren’t logical.

  484. duane,
    how could it be legal in any US state or Canada if he already has a legal wife and/or he gets no legal marriage certificate?

  485. I in addition to my buddies were actually checking the best hints located on the website and so the sudden I had a horrible suspicion I never thanked the web site owner for those secrets. The women had been for this reason excited to study them and have now definitely been making the most of them. I appreciate you for getting well considerate and for using such awesome tips most people are really wanting to discover. My honest apologies for not expressing appreciation to you earlier.

Comments are closed.

%d bloggers like this: