Carolyn Jessop Child Support Judgment

Today in San Angelo, Tx, Judge Barbara Walther heard Carolyn Jessop’s Motion to Enter Child Support Order.    Recall that Natalie Malonis and Amy Hennington, on behalf of their clients Carolyn and Merril, reached an agreement in September on past child support and future child support that Merril would pay to Carolyn for their 8 children.

It seems that after the agreement was reached, Merril adopted the “answer them nothing” legal strategy and wouldnt allow his attorney to actually sign the agreed order. So Malonis had to file a motion and ask the court to have a hearing just to get the judge to sign the order (5 months after the fact).

Interestingly, Merril has not paid a dime of child support yet.  Oops.

Looking at the order, Merril is already several payments behind on his child support from September 2009 through February 2010 — this order says that those amounts automatically become a judgment against Merril.  Whatever retroactive child support Merril was supposed to be paying along the way, his failure to do so has now resulted in a judgment for the entire amount of back child support plus interest.

More as details become available …..

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on February 18, 2010.

208 Responses to “Carolyn Jessop Child Support Judgment”

  1. i really like this order and will like it more and more if it causes merril to spend some time behind the bars of a jail cell.

  2. That money is owed to HIS children! What a deadbeat Dad.

  3. but the real question is how is it going to be enforced? given the contempt of the court that merril is showing.

  4. but the real question is how is it going to be enforced? given the contempt of the court that merril is showing.

    There are loads and loads of ways both judicial and non-judicial to enforce child support.

    I really like the idea of going after money on deposit with lawyers. Talk about putting someone between a rock and a hard place. Not to mention that it causes his lawyers to have to get distracted with defending their right to keep the money.

  5. I will admit that I do not fully understand the UEP trust issue. However, I do understand what deadbeat dads and scofflaws are. Merril Jessop is a leader and Bishop of the flds. The flds claim they are religious, christian and family oriented. However ole Merril has ignored a court order to pay child support for 8 of his children. He was slammed in court in Texas yesterday for his failure to abide by previous court orders. Now he faces possible contempt of court penalties of 6 months in jail and $500 fines. IMO, this so called religious leader has all the morals and self responsibility of a roving tomcat. Of course ole merril never pursued visitation rights with his 8 children. Just wrote off his own sons and daughters like they don’t even exist. A pox on him and all the other flds men that treat their wives, ex wives and children this way

  6. I hope Carolyn gets the money for her kids. I don’t understand why Merril would just not pay what he was ordered to pay. It seems so much worse for him now.

  7. Here,here Ale Wife…..Bishop Jessop is just another wounded warrior in Warren’s war on Law & Order in our American democracy. How is it that a church leader can behave in such a illicit and illegal manner and receive no reprisal from his own congregation or FLDS leadership? The answer is obvious that they, every last member of this fanatical and covert sect, and the Prophet’s Priesthood fully endorse and approve of this ‘Deadbeat Dad’ behavior, which points out that family values and children’s protection is a lost ideal to this zealot group of followers. This is truly ‘EVIL’ incarnate and an attempt to shun the mother and children in some missing moral code that rewards and reasons this outlaw behavior as being righteous. What happens to the claim(s) that these are, ‘hard working and good people’, that are being lead by convicted and indicted ‘Kingpin’ leaders. If their bishops are allowed to behave in such a lawless manner and set such a wretched example for the FLDS congregation the American Press & Public need only watch their footprints and not their erroneous statements.

  8. Well, Isn’t the real FLDS Church message here to the rest of the remaining Warrenite women and children that no American court or government can aid a family that escapes their tyrannical control? The real issue is over power and control, intimidation and punitive actions & defiant and outlaw behaviors. The ‘Holy War’ of the prophet Warren S. Jeffs and his Warrenite faction are flying their true colors as criminal members of an organized crime syndicate.

  9. Merril has really burned it this time – Its obvious that the FLDS dont believe in paying child support – never have.

    Well step into the 90′s, Merril, its not 1973 anymore – you may want to live in a time vaccuum but the world marches on and society doesnt accept the types of abuses and neglect your used to giving out.

    You just made a huge statement to the world, one that rings loud and clear and will likely piss off every Judge from Austin to SLC.

  10. I sure hope the Utah Supremes paid attention to Merrils failure to show at court over his children.

    They havent ruled yet and actions like this might influence them.

  11. caljim, that is exactly why it is so important that she collect the money. Believe me, the other women will hear about it and it’s got to sink in.

  12. I am really such a bigot and hatemonger. I really don’t like persons that routinely flaunt our Law & Order. I really hate the criminal acts of persons bent upon conducting themselves in felonious lifestyles under such a phony veneer of righteousness. Isn’t this yet another shining example of why polygamy is illegal in all 50 States in the Union?

  13. Polygamy per se is not the problem. Religion and its effed up beliefs and leadership is. If the leadership doesn’t change, nothing else will.

    If only these “men” and “women” would get a collective spine, rise up and refuse to go along with the madness… maybe… well… I guess I’m a dreamer.

  14. E Texas–I totally agree!!! and..nothing wrong with dreaming!!!

    These people–especially the men are nothing more than a bunch of wimps…they do nothing unless weenie says it’s ok…they sorta make me sick!!!

  15. Maybe someone should tell Princess Betty Jessop,what a deadbeat her father is!!

  16. Maybe someone should tell Princess Betty Jessop,what a deadbeat her father is!!

    Alright DD – I’m calling you out on this. Young folks derive a large part of their sense of self from both parents. Dogging one parent (whether they’re well deserving of it or not) to a child is not good for the child and is pretty abusive.

    Now, in your defense, Betty is old enough to start seeing things for the way they really are. Maybe not so much in telling her that her father is a deadbeat but in educating her to the fact of how this hurts her special needs sibling.

  17. Ron, I don’t apologize for saying it one bit! She was 18yrs old when she decided to return to Flds. She is now 20, time to grow up and see the truth. She isn’t a dummy, just a princess in Merril’s eyes. He has 7 other children whom he is court ordered to support.
    Betty has said some pretty ugly things about her mother, and its time she realize, taking care of 8 children alone, without financial support isn’t easy,especially when one is disabled. Shame Merril, Shame on Betty,,, Im tired of giving these people excuses for bad behaviour, criminal behaviour!

  18. And by the way, Betty should thank her mother, since she would more than likely have been married off at 14, had her mother not gotten her out of there.

  19. **applause** for DD

  20. Toad

    BS – It’s ugly and abusive – and anyone who applauds that behavior is a serious a$$hat.

  21. Thank you Ron, for your support.

    I know from personal experience that an adult makes their own choices and must deal from any fallout from choices one makes.

    Perhaps you have some of your own?

  22. DD

    Very nice – an eye for an eye, huh? I’d call Betty pretty misguided and programmed but that doesn’t make her an evil person in my book.

    No one is making excuses, but telling “Princess Betty Jessop,what a deadbeat her father is” is ugly and abusive. If you want to be that way go right ahead.

  23. Look Toad – I’m all for holding people accountable for their actions, but you still need to consider the totality of the circumstances.

    Basically, you’ve got a young lady that was a victim of horrible parental alienation when she was younger. We’ve all said things to our parents that we probably regret.

    However, being abusive to her while it may give you some sense of personal satisfaction isn’t going to changer her views. The effective way to deal with it is to show her that her father’s behavior negatively impacts her sibling rather than telling “Princess Betty Jessop,what a deadbeat her father is.”

    One is effective, the other is abusive douche bag behavior.

  24. Yeah, we’ve got bigger fish to fry than Betty Jessop. And I don’t see how she is apt to “wake up” until she is abused, given the efforts they go to to indoctrinate. Reading his dictations, I’m impressed with how much time every day they spend on indoctrination of the elite. It’s not easy getting women to give up their children or go submit to whoever you assign them to. The upper echelon women get three speaches a day, plus assigned reading time, plus intercom pep talks and more on Sunday. Nuns in convents pray less than these people.

  25. Ron, I wasn’t being abusive, but Truthful! Carolyn herself states, Betty was treated differently with Merril. I really doubt Betty gives a rat’s ass what anyone thinks about her father. Being programmed is no excuse for bad behaviour, and she has treated her mother, both privately and openly in interviews with disrespect.
    Knowing that her father, didn’t want to help her little brother get medical care is abusive Ron. Stating publically to Oprah Winfrey, there were no underage girls married, is out and out lying Ron. And she said it on Public Interview.

    She’s 20 yrs old, and time to grow up and smell the roses of truth, whether it be Flds or her father. She still has a little brother who will need care the rest of his life, does she care?

  26. Howsabout we don’t fight among ourselves here?

  27. And I don’t see how she is apt to “wake up” until she is abused, given the efforts they go to to indoctrinate.

    Total and complete unmitigated BS. You cite Carolyn Jessop – do you think if you abused her and told her what a piece of crap her father was she would “wake up?”

    You slap me with a 2 x 4 and my reaction is almost always going to be to pick it up and slap you back.

    Some of you folks have serious anger issues that you’re playing out on these folks.

  28. You can call me anything you want Ron, doesn’t bother me. I have dealt with these issues my whole life, caring for children whose parents did dispiciable things to the their children. The guy didn’t even show up yesterday, that reveals so much as to what these people are all about.
    He did however show up at the Utah Supreme Court. To hell with his children right Ron?

  29. You bet im angry!! Im angry that the Law would allow such to happen to so many children, in the name of ‘religion’. What does it take to get a generation of children back to where they have rights?
    What does it take for a so called “MAN” to bully up and take care of his responsibilities? Just because ONE wife leaves with her children, he says, they are no longer his, bull shit!
    Ever tried taking care of 8 children by yourself? Even with government help its not enough,and shouldnt be. They impregnate women and have children, they should pay for those children.

    I don’t need anger management, I just need the government to take a damn stand on the issue of polygamy, abused children, and dead beat fathers.

  30. DD – I’m not calling you anything – I’m calling out your proposed behavior. We all act like douches from time to time, whether we are a douche or not I suppose depends on our intent.

  31. Get off the fence Ron,,, believe it or not there are sides here! You can’t be in the middle, you either for children being loved, taken care of, given education, given choices about who and what they want to do with their life, or your NOT!
    There are NO grey areas here.

  32. The old joke around the courthouse is about the folks that say,

    “G-Damn it, I don’t need any f****ing anger management classes.”

    are usually the ones that do.

  33. My intent was exactly as stated Ron. You don’t see it, because you don’t want to beleive it.

  34. Maybe thats why somelawyers are so rich Ron? They have neglected their own principals for the money involved

  35. I have a question that maybe the legal eagles here can answer. If I remember correctly some part of the deed to the YFZ Ranch was put in Amy Hennington’s name to ensure her legal fees. Since Merril has now defaulted on his support payments and any funds on deposit for his legal fees can be taken to apply to this support, can Carolyn now get the title of the YFZ Ranch from Amy Hennington?

  36. Get off the fence Ron,,, believe it or not there are sides here!

    Yes, in a black and white world everything has a side.

    On one hand Betty Jessop is a horrible insolent child who said horrible nasty things to her mother. On the other hand, she’s also a victim of extreme parental alienation that makes her behavior at least understandable and possibly excusable.

    Which is she? Both in a way, and neither in another way.

    So borrowing from the anonymous Fred – FU on taking sides – I call it the way I see it. You don’t like it then I’d say you’ve got a problem.

  37. i think amy was just the trustee for the money owed to wayman. he gave 990,000 and got a note with the yfz as collateral.

  38. Listen folks, Ron is absolutely right. The mind control on EVERYONE is so extreme, you just cannot imagine. Being 18 and having the issues and feelings Betty had does not mean she was having them as an adult by your societal definition. These people only THINK they’re making their own choices on the inside. They cannot deal what it’s like to ACTUALLY make their own choices. It’s so much easier on the inside to have every choice made for you and therefore no personal responsibility for making them.

    Even if you leave the madness, making choices is the HARDEST THING YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH on the outside. Faithful Betty was too old and indoctrinated and traumatized when she was taken out by her mother to make a successful transition. I know! I had to go through the same experience with TWO of mine.

    There IS a difference between abuse from parents in “normal” society and born-and-raised religious abuse. There are hardly any psychologically trained experts out there who can successfully deal with this crap. Like I said… I KNOW!

  39. DD – I have no idea what your intent would be in saying:

    Maybe someone should tell Princess Betty Jessop,what a deadbeat her father is!!

    Maybe you envision yourself as some Zen teacher who slaps their student upside the face. Your intent is solely to help them reach enlightenment.

    Then again if you did that then you could be a horrible abusive angry douche bag.

    I don’t know – either is possible – and neither is also possible.

    For right now, I’m sitting somewhat uncomfortably on the fence (those fence posts do have a way of getting stuck in some pretty uncomfortable places.)

  40. I never said Betty was a horrible insolent child. I said she is a princess amoung her peers in flds, and Merrils favorite child. Although, she wasn’t when she was with her mother evidently.
    Actually ron, thats where we differ. I believe there is right or wrong. You do wrong, take responsibility for it. Don’t hide behind excuses, religion.
    You can follow whatever thinking you like Ron, its your choice, but don’t deny me my opinion.. and FU

  41. The effective way to deal with it is to show her that her father’s behavior negatively impacts her sibling rather than telling “Princess Betty Jessop,what a deadbeat her father is.”
    ————
    Betty lived in the trailers with mushrooms growing in the closet, just like her siblings. And, from what I understand, she blamed Carolyn for it.

    Somehow I think Betty already knows very well that her siblings have been negatively impacted by her father’s refusal to provide financial support, but she probably just considers it one of the costs of apostasy.

  42. RIH isn’t sitting on a fence from my perspective. He is squarely on the side of the abused children and anti-FLDS leadership. But what he is saying is that calling Betty out has absolutely nothing to do with ending the abuse and “getting” the abusive leadership. The desire to “call Betty out” is a side issue.

    And yes I do wonder about the Duane “what if….” which age makes it ok to “call” someone out, particularly with respect to this cult. So I resort to – if the law says they are legally responsibly for their acts they are legally responsible for their acts.

  43. DD

    Come on – in many ways she is a “horrible insolent” child – there’s no denying that.

    Have I ever denied you your opinion? You have a right to as many horrible angry douche bag opinions as you want. I also have a right to call your opinion, “horrible,” “awful,” “abusive,” “angry,” “douchey” or any of the other ways I’ve characterized it.

    You apparently don’t like that I’ve called you out on this. Seriously, that’s your problem.

  44. i agree with e. texas. betty was forced to leave at an older age than the other children. arthur was older too, but he had been sent out to work and wasn’t right there with the group constantly. he’s now in college and a licensed pilot. luanne is 2 years younger than betty and allowed herself begin healing. betty never gave herself permission to heal.

  45. E Texas.
    Well maybe its time they did. They so willinginly throw out children at ages of 13 or 14. And utah and arizona has done little to rememdy that. They let it happen, cover it up, hide it. And allow them excess to move all over the place and start new compounds, knowing what they are doing.
    Betty experienced going to public school, having new friends, etc. She chose to go back. She is an adult now, and evidenly has no communication with her mother, or her siblings, her choice.

  46. I could care less about you calling me out Ron, lol No skin off my butt.
    I don’t take back what I said, and Betty should be ashamed of herself.

  47. Thank you HHG

    Yes, I clearly vehemently anti-child abuse. In my mind there are effective ways of dealing with the issue and horribly counter-productive ways of dealing with that issue.

    Sometimes the line between effective and horribly counter-productive can get a bit blurry. The road to hell is quite often paved with good intentions.

  48. DD1 you are wrong about betty having no communication with her mother or siblings. they do speak to her on the phone.

  49. Ron, you’ve got a lovely amount of space between your feet and the blanket just below. Good on ya! I’m never going to forget what you said about that. It was affirming and just what I needed!

  50. Ron

    Think about it – who is the ugly abusive bunch in this story? OH yeah!

    Actually, I want every lawyer and every Judge to know what a craphat Merril is.

    I agree its not PC to flame fathers or mothers to “children” – but Betty was going to write book about how great life in the FLDS was, remember? She’s an adult now – she SHOULD be educated on what her dad does not only as father but leader of that Zipper ranch.

    EVERY adult should become aware. It’s one of the reasons Polygamy is illegal.

  51. So what WOULD be an effective way of dealing with the issue, Ron? Let’s not forget what Merril said the last time this child support case was in court. From Blues’ site:

    “Merril was asked why he had not supported his children in the last 6 years, and he answered that while they lived with him, he had provided a nice house and saw to their needs, but that they chose to leave. Basically he said that since they left, he had no responsibility to support them.”

    http://txbluesman.wordpress.com/2009/09/29/jessop-v-jessop-summary-of-first-day-flds-child-support-case/

    I think Betty is already perfectly aware what a “deadbeat” her Dad is. IMHO, it’s not knowledge that’s lacking here, it’s empathy.

  52. Well proudtexan thats good to know. Doesn’t change my mind. The fact is merril jessop is NOT a good person. Ask the two children he brought to YFZ in the dead of night. The little girl who kept asking him when her mother would come, or when she would get a letter.
    And merril telling her to “Shut Up” ,not mention her mother again.
    Yeah, real good man,nice father,,,NOT!!!

  53. Oh geeez, y’all. Don’t make me fix popcorn.

  54. And from the same post:

    “Apparently [Luanne Jessop] really impressed the judge, noting that Merril knew that they needed support but wouldn’t provide it, and that they had to live in a “battered women’s shelter” and then a small trailer that was in such poor shape that there were “mushrooms” growing in one of the closets.”

  55. My anger at law enforcement and others about this whole issue has also grown recently. I’m very angry at news media for focusing on the drama of the raid and the “balanced” view of the Natl Geographic and New York Times. Nobody was giving us a “balanced” view of Tony Alamo and I think Warren Jeffs is much worse than he is. I really don’t get how people can shrug and say “leave them alone” with all that we know about this crazy cult. The idea that religious freedoms or “parental rights” might trump basic safety and human rights just floors me.

    But that said, I don’t understand transferring that anger to Betty Jessop. She’s just another pawn in someone else’s game.

  56. Carolyn did get her children counseling! She did the best she could under the circumstances. When you no one who will help, no child support, this is way women have to live, to get on their feet.

  57. I think the anger is an expression of hurt. Many of us identify with Carolyn so strongly, that seeing Betty slap her in the face so egregiously hurts us too. Most people express that kind of pain with anger. It’s not an attack. It’s an observation, and I believe it’s valid.

  58. Im not angry at Betty Jessop, Im angry that she is now 20yrs old and can’t see the situation at all , when it comes to what has been going on with her father. She was out of Flds for 5yrs. Her mother wrote a book, and Betty basically shamed her mother because she wrote it.

  59. All that said, I think there was some miscommunication – no DD isnt going to call up Betty, and no one is going to get in little FLDS childrens faces and tell them whats good or bad in their life.

    I’d like to think the government has checks and balances for those issues, but on that score I’m not convinced.

    Merril’s failings are a huge red flag to society though, as if there havent been enough of them already – you would need to be blind not to see the warning signals.

  60. It’s a heartbreaker, all right, Dawg. The whole flds situation is a heartbreaker. This is more collateral damage.

  61. Awareness ONLY comes when you (with enormous difficulty) finally (if ever) find the ability to think for yourself – adopt complex critical thinking skills. We could all do the same here.
    ~~~~~~~~~~
    It’s not lack of empathy… it’s lack of knowledge of one’s own capacity for critical thinking.
    ~~~~~~~~~~
    We don’t know what we don’t know. That goes for the media too. They’re just trying to sell the news… tout more readers/listeners than the next sound byte.

    Anger and indignation won’t change a damn thing but this is a country where we can express our opinions. I’m sure grateful for that!

  62. E. Texas so what will change this country? We are at war right now with Iraq and Afghanistan, some of which is also because of the way Women are treated in those countries.
    And we have the same damn thing going on RIGHT IN THIS COUNTRY!

  63. So what WOULD be an effective way of dealing with the issue, Ron? Let’s not forget what Merril said the last time this child support case was in court.

    Well, I don’t really have an answer, I just have ideas and issues that need to be considered.

    In my mind, the only way to deal with the men is to “knock heads.” They’re deluded stubborn controlling idiots who will only respond to someone with a bigger stick.

    This discussion actually refocuses me on what’s a difficult issue. What do you do with the women? “Knocking heads” could make some of them wake up, but it could also have a very detrimental effect. The Zen-like slap in the face only works if the student is ready. Education? Clearly some of the women don’t want that “education.”

    A strong case can be made that people will only make change when the alternatives are wholly unacceptable. I’m not sure we have the laws to make things “wholly unacceptable” for the women. I mean come on, they give up their kids because Uncle Warren told them to? If they won’t change when confronted with that, they really, what’s secular society going to do?

    Part of me says that empathy and patience may be the key to dealing with the women. Women are much more empathic than men and respond much better to empathic gestures by others. The problem with “empathy and patience” is that they take time. While you’re waiting for that to work, abuses will still be going on.

  64. I guess what “I” would rather concentrate on, besides educating Betty or various FLDS actors (who dont really care anyway) is how this will play out in the PR arena for the FLDS.

    OK, its been proven they are child molesters, now its proven they are deadbeats to their children too, not to mention taking these children out of state and out of the hands of their mothers.

    (which hasnt been legally addressed – YET)

    I mean, who is going to stand up and support that behavior? I dont think even Hugh McFargo would support that behavior.

  65. i don’t support the behavior of merril and i do think he’s a deadbeat dad and deserves whatever comes his way. he should be supporting the children he had with carolyn and it is a shame that he’s acting the way he is.

    as for betty, i only hope and pray that she will come to her senses and return to her mother and siblings who love her.

  66. Breaking out of the indoctrination is the real topic here, very few have made the transition, as E. Texas points out. From the ‘Priesthood Record’ on Wednesday, October 16, 2002 read this quote from the prophet to see the all encompassing mindset that is created for the victims :

    “The oath and covenant of the Priesthood is such that even a THOUGHT against the leader is a step toward being a traitor. A man cannot find peace. Men who entertain doubt do not have peace, (described in the National Geographic article as, ‘seeming cowed’) and they blame the Prophet or leader for their unrest when the unrest is within themselves. That is what happens to apostates. They don’t realize the fear and doubt is within themselves. So you can not maintain a testimony with fear and doubt”.

    Very interesting mantra to ‘Keep Sweet’ and avoid all critical thinking, which in itself proves the thinker is at fault. How weird of a mad logic is that? Very subtle mindset that places all blame upon the victim who is responsible for ‘fears and doubts’, totally Mad Hatter in ‘Alice in Wonderland’ thinking.

    E. Texas how anyone begins to see through a smoke screen that makes all critical thinking a traitorous activity is mind boggling, if you use this suggested mental opiate.

  67. if you use this suggested mental opiate.

    Was it Lenin that said “religion is the opiate of the masses?”

  68. Oops – it was Karl Marx – I knew it was one of those damned communist bastard…

  69. I believe Ron is right in this folks. Yes, Betty is technically an adult, but she’s still a daughter who wants very much to love her parents. She still has more loyalty to her father because she was raised to believe was important (and right) and that her mother was merely a woman who could be replaced with any other woman at any time. Being agressive towards her would simply reinforce her feelings of persecution.

    What Carolyn is doing in keeping her battle between her and Merril and leaving the children out of it as much as she can is exactly right for Betty’s eventual “waking up”. If Betty needs “abuse” to wake up then I suggest we step back and let the pros handle it. After all, isn’t that what the FLDS excel at? ;)

    DD, I understand both your anger and your desire to slap some sense into Betty with a few well chosen words. The problem with that desire is that it would do harm, not good — not even for you. It’s satisfying to dream about but it would never work out in a good way.

  70. Jim

    You’re so right, they’ve created this deviously brilliant system. On the surface what wrong with “keeping sweet?” However, when you untwist that knot you see the devious logic behind it.

    I guess you have to give the FLDS credit for one thing. They’ve got a damn good system of mind control.

  71. So all this can be released to the media right? And the AP people can pick it up right?

  72. Im not for “slaping anyone, physically or emotionally”. Im for disincorporating Flds PERIOD! It’s not a religion, its a corporate institution which functions only to serve the leaders of the corporation. Its a criminal corporation made up of so called religious leadership masked with piety and servatude.
    The only difference between muslim women and Flds women is the color of their clothing.

  73. Um, DD – if they’re NOT a religion then there are other differences between Muslim women and FLDS women than the color of their clothes.

  74. So all this can be released to the media right? And the AP people can pick it up right?

    Yeah Walton – but I wouldn’t count on the AP picking up on it – far better to go to one of the reporters that covers the FLDS a lot. Maybe someone should send a copy to Winslow or Mike (is it?) Watkiss. If they pick it up then maybe it might get picked up by the wire services.

  75. Yes, Ron and that goes to another one of Bishop F. Merril Jessop’s beloved daughters, you know Naomi Jessop Jeffs Jeffs(x2). The one who was so involved with the prophet that she was even recording his sleep revelations for him and showing some promising attributes of a future High Priestess. Sorry, to disagree but Betty doesn’t get a ‘hall pass’ for returning to the covert sect, especially after seeing the freedom of being outside of Warren World. Her situation does redline the serious and mind boggling effects of the FLDS indoctrination. It is reminiscent of the Korean War brainwashing’s of American POWs to espouse communistic beliefs, when they knew a truer political system existed. Betty is a heartsore example of the depth of the FLDS Church indoctrinations and a reminder that very few members ‘pierce the veil’ of this cult-like belief system. I believe that Betty will someday reject this covert existence because she knows the ‘EVIL’ gentiles are not as portrayed by the FLDS Church.

  76. “This discussion actually refocuses me on what’s a difficult issue. What do you do with the women? “Knocking heads” could make some of them wake up, but it could also have a very detrimental effect. The Zen-like slap in the face only works if the student is ready. Education? Clearly some of the women don’t want that “education.””

    I have this fantasy of buying Berry Knoll (with money that exists only in my imagination — but it’s better than letting Bill’s imaginary lawyers get it, right”?) and using Berry Knoll as a place to create opportunities. Opportunities for those who wish to learn, to learn. Opportunities for those who wish to leave but aren’t ready for the culture shock, to adjust and grow (and get therapy as needed). Opportunities for honest work at honest wages. And most of all, opportunities for those within that closed system to see that the “evil gentile world” isn’t as bad as it’s been painted.

    I have a further fantasy that all of the crimes committed within the community (or really, any other) are prosecuted and justly punished.

    I have a dream that the FLDS are no longer able to dominate government services in Short Creek.

    I think all of these factors will help to make a huge difference within the FLDS.

    However, I know that as long as there are human beings some will choose to abdicate their responsibility to be thinking human beings and that atrocities will occur. And at that point in time, it would be nice for the law to protect the victims.

  77. Ron said this:”Part of me says that empathy and patience may be the key to dealing with the women. Women are much more empathic than men and respond much better to empathic gestures by others. The problem with “empathy and patience” is that they take time. While you’re waiting for that to work, abuses will still be going on.”

    I don’t know Ron. I think they are much stronger than you give them credit.

    I don’t think anyone needs to brow beat people. But I think putting it all out on the table is the only way to go.

    Many people might not like the truth but given the truth they can deal with it. jmo

  78. So if I share this no one will get into any trouble right?

  79. Actually Betty Jessop rather has some scary similarities to Jaycee Dugard. Philip Garrido was recently busted trying to contact Jaycee.

    Why? Even though Jayee is an adult and has been out for a time, he know he could still exercise control and manipulation.

    Betty like Jaycee will take time to shake fully off the effects of those years of control and manipulation. I’m like you, I think she’ll eventually come around.

  80. So if I share this no one will get into any trouble right?

    Not one bit Walton – you’re only pointing the reporter to already available public information.

  81. “Humans often aren’t very rational animals, especially in groups.”

    Said by a poster on an internet discussion group. I responded, “man, you can say that again.”

  82. Tears to my eyes. A good thing.

    I’ll be back later. I am about to share. :)

  83. in the words of some famous Buddhist sages, may we all wake up in this lifetime… when the student is ready, the teacher will appear…
    Let’s just hope that Betty wakes up… and if she does, be there for her.

  84. East Texas said :
    “Polygamy per se is not the problem. Religion and its effed up beliefs and leadership is. If the leadership doesn’t change, nothing else will.”

    I don’t know if I agree with you, E. Texas.
    I think that polygamy may well be the problem.
    I base that statement on experience working with women in polygamous relationships.
    Senior wives find it unsatisfactory.
    There are multiple medical research studies which indicate polygamy has a negative effect on women and children.
    These studies were done in countries where polygamy is legal and
    religiously / culturally acceptable, but not mandatory.

    Published literature has led me to that conclusion – not opinion.
    Someone would have to demonstrate to me from scientific literature that it is not detrimental.
    The only answer to stopping this is education.

  85. I think polygamy is certainly A problem. But after some considerable study, I think that total unquestioning obedience to God’s representative on earth is the core problem. WSJ was definitely testing the limits of his power and I think it was/is only a matter of time before the ultimate sacrifice would be necessary to satisfy him. If a woman would give up her children to be raised by another, with them never coming back, solely on the direction of this one man….then killing at his command is not far off. And that makes polygamy only a symptom, no matter how bad it may be.

    I know a few polyamorous families who are as happy as any monogamous family, but they were all consenting adults with lots of personal freedoms within and without the relationship, and without an assumption that either gender has more partners than the other. That does not even remotely resemble what happens in the FLDS.

  86. I have known secular polyamorists, and their relationships did not last for any appreciable amount of time.
    That is something entirely different than religious polygyny, which teaches that a man can have many partners, whereas a woman can have only one, because the “deity” says so….
    That can have a devastating effect on a woman’s psyche.

  87. Cat

    Didn’t you sort of confirm what E. Texas said – polygamy is not the problem but religion is?

    I’m with you that I don’t think secular polyamory is long term sustainable. The problem is when you add religion (with a dose of patriarchy) to the mix.

    Maybe it’s a question of definition – in my mind religious mandated polgyny is a problem. But that clearly incorporates E. Texas’ argument.

  88. CW, I’m just saying, if you were to take “polygamy” out of the FLDS picture, it would STILL be messed up… BECAUSE of the belief system, the isolation and secrecy based on the LACK OF CHOICE. In other words, it would still be a destructive, mind controlling, religious cult.

    I’m not debating your personal experience working with women in polygamous relationships. The research studies may be absolutely correct, but I KNOW there are polygamous relationships that work for the participants. The trick to those is that there is NO COERCION, religious or not. You are right that education is the answer.

    That said, if the studies were done “where polygamy is legal and religiously / culturally acceptable, but not mandatory” and those women chose and supported being in those relationships, then why are the effects negative?

  89. Ron and Jim pretty much put forth (and eloquently, I might add) some cogent points, the most important being education, patience and most of all TIME. It will take generations to see things improve and you and I will be long dead before seeing any truly beneficial results.

    Personally, I think it will take more women doing what Carolyn and I did… a lot more of it… to wrest the control out of the hands of corrupt patriarchal leadership. Truth be told, these men are deep down afraid of the real power their women have. Women are the real creators and so much stronger than the men, but they just don’t understand it – yet. Somehow the insularity has to gradually weaken and allow more “it’s okay to learn things from outside sources” and discuss them. The three E’s… Exposure, Education and Experience in outside communication are the keys. And all that takes TIME!

    The message I wish I could get across, especially to presiding men, is this:
    If one’s faith cannot withstand outside (worldly) influences, then what kind of faith is it? If you teach / share your beliefs (“correct principle” in your vernacular) and allow people to govern themselves – like Brigham Young taught – you’ll have stalwart believers who have made a true choice and you’re rid of the troublemakers, the ones who can’t withstand the worldliness they’ve been exposed to. Then life is easier. You just have to perfect your own relationship with your god and treat your families with the same respect you want from them. No more struggle; just allow people to fall by the wayside (their choice) while you stick to your own beliefs. Go ahead and teach your families what you believe, but let them see the other side of the coin and choose for themselves without damning them for it. Live and let live; do no harm. And… that means your young daughters MUST be allowed to come of age and choose their own life direction AFTER the three E’s.

    The short of it all: You do not have the power to “save” anyone but yourself.

  90. OMG… I need to get off of here… go back outdoors and take some of my angst out on that pile of wood out there. Love to hear that wood splitting asunder with a hard whack of my maul.

  91. My opinion is Betty Jessop will never come around. She saw the difficulties her mother had with moving to the outside world and according to Carolyn tried to trip her up any way she could. It appears at that point she’s already reached her conclusions re: flds/Merill. Also, she’s being well provided for and apparently enjoys being a “Nuss.”

    My sympathies go out to the other seven who do know better and have to emotionally deal with the fact that their father outright rejects them. I’m sure Carolyn will have her hands full dealing with that.

    What Merill has essentially done is validate everything Carolyn said in her book. And done it in spades. I hope she’s writing a second book and the plans for the movie haven’t fallen through.

    I really believe mass media is the best way to bring this before the public. When that fire gets fully lit nothing Nat Geo or Brooke Adams says or does will put it out.

    I would have sued myself and answered my self nothing, for nothing. So Merill you wasted your money.

  92. I don’t really find it amazing that Merril refused to pay the child support, or that FLDS dropped Allen Keate like a hot potato after he pled guilty.
    For Flds, not paying lawyers for appeal for Allen Keate, just keeps money in thier pockets, (kinda like, your on your own now bud).
    I very much admire Carolyn Jessop, and any other woman who left Flds and has sued for child support. I hope you all eventually get it!

  93. My opinion is Betty Jessop will never come around.

    Maybe. It’s a bit too cynical for my tastes. Besides, she’s still young. Ask me in another 10 years and I may be more in your camp.

  94. The chosen women, or the favored children or wives, like their status. Those women will stay. It does seem each Husband has a favored wife.

  95. OK, Ron. I’ll see you and raise you. In another ten years, she’ll be one of the ‘enforcers.’

  96. I took the exact opposite route that Carolyn did. I wanted my children to have absolutely nothing to do with their father or his influence so I wasn’t willing to try for child support and take any chances on the courts allowing visitation as a result. Even the judges I talked to (off the record) confirmed that for me. For me it had to be all or nothing. The hardest part was cutting off all my roots. I’ll grant I was luckier than most women would be today to find and hold on to a good job. Still, I had to work my way up and it was a terrible financial struggle for a long time.

  97. btw… Carolyn does have a new book coming out in May:

    Triumph: Life After the Cult–A Survivor’s Lessons

    You can pre-order it on Amazon

  98. Miele – could be – very well could be.

  99. E.Texas – Thank you very much. I’m off to give Carolyn a few more bucks.

    It sounds like you struggled with something almost none of us can comprehend, and landed on your feet. Continuing best wishes for you.

  100. I’m with Miele. And I think it’s about status.

  101. E. Texas

    In 20-20 hindsight, I do wonder what Carolyn would say.

    I do divorce work and sometimes parental alienation is a major problem.

    Alienation is abuse, but so many mild forms exist that it’s not taken seriously.

    The only practical solution to “hard core” alienation is to stop visitation and possession by the alienating parent. So, in the long run, while it may have been more difficult for you, you may have chosen the best route for the long term mental health of your children.

  102. I’m with Miele. And I think it’s about status.

    Betty – I get where you’re coming from. I’ve always suspected that even though Daddy may be highly placed, she’s “damaged goods” from having been contaminated by the gentile world.

    That’s why my opinion is that only time will tell. Besides, she hasn’t been married off to a “worthy” priestholder yet. That fact makes me wonder.

  103. E Texas, Im surprised your husband didn’t file for custody, thats what merril was told to do, to try and take the kids away from Carolyn.
    But, im glad your okay, that you made it!!! I admire you for getting yourself and your children away.

  104. She hasn’t been married off Ron, because she has to PROVE to the leadership , she is worthy! She was out for 5yrs, and they will let a woman come back, but she’s tainted till the leadership decide she is once again worthy of a priesthood husband

  105. Ron, since you’re here, can I ask you a question?

    How does the lawyer deposit thing work. Theoretically a client comes in and RonLaw Co., Inc. asks for a deposit to accept the case. They give it to you. You do some work on the case.

    Natalie Malonis comes with a judgment against your client. asking for the deposit money.

    How can they get that money back from you? I’m having a hard time understanding this.

  106. I believe Betty looked into Oprah’s eyes, and ‘sugared her up.”
    (Meaning out right lied.) As a matter of fact, they all did.
    When reading their teachings that much is evident.

    How would anyone know if Betty is married or not? If the remaking of the white drapes was classified, then I’d imagine Betty’s situation would be eyes-only.

  107. Miele

    It’s a strange deal that I’m going to follow to see what arguments are advanced.

    There are “non-refundable” retainers. This means that even though you’ve made a deposit that some (or perhaps all) may be non-refundable. The rules get pretty complex over just how much can really be “non-refundable.”

    If it’s a general retainer, then only your billings up to the current date would be able to be retained by the lawyer. Anything over that amount would need to be surrendered.

    Criminal lawyers tend to use a combination of “flat fee” and non-refundable retainers. They tend to not charge by the hour and rarely use general retainers.

    There are lines out there for sure, but they’re quite fuzzy. Obviously if Merrill deposited a million dollars with his lawyer, then some of that would be reachable. I’d say given the case 50 to 100 thousand could easily be justified as “non-refundable.”

    This is one of those deals that you just have to “play by ear.”

  108. Miele

    For Carolyn there is a “bright” side. Any arguments would need to first pass the vetting of Judge Walther. Being a practical, pragmatic, and no nonsense Judge, they’ll have a hard time with her.

  109. dd1,
    My husband couldn’t file for custody because he couldn’t find me. Anyway, he was too scared to “out” himself to the legal authorities as a polygamist to even attempt it. He had valuable standing in the mainstream Mormon community which the leadership used to their financial advantage and did not want that threatened.

    The only way they could have successfully taken my children back would have been to find me and kill me – which I came to understand much later was considered if not tried. I was too busy hiding and surviving.

  110. How horrible you must of felt E Texas, always looking behind your back, and being afraid of being found. Im sorry you had to live like that for any time period

  111. E Texas–I so admire you and what you did for your children. You are a very strong lady…

  112. CW wrote “I have known secular polyamorists, and their relationships did not last for any appreciable amount of time.”

    Overall, I agree, but I have also known some Southern Baptist monogamists who did not last for any appreciable amount of time, either. And I know of at least two…um…committed groups who lasted for twenty years or more, one with kids, which is success in my book. I think the important thing to lasting is that they have to be a closed group, not an ‘open marriage’.

    I gave up on all that back in the ’70s myself. It was a grand experiment and I have the scars to prove it, but I think it’s hard enough to get along with one spouse, more than that is just out of my league.

  113. Ok Ron, thank you. Fuzzy is right. Are those numbers for the criminal defense lawyer real numbers. Yikes.

    One more, if you don’t mind. As in MJ’s child support. Two lawyers came to an agreement. MJ didn’t sign it.

    Say down the line, it causes MJ to have his bail revoked. Can his criminal defense attorney sue the attorney representing him civilly for malpractice?

    Or would that fall under what I understand from a little medical-mal as ‘contributory negligence?’

    If so, then, shouldn’t have the attorney who made the deal that was signed off on by the Judge, made the Court aware that that situation existed?

    What I’m asking is, just a opinion, did the attorney who represented him in the child support case know there was not a deal and obtunded that, or was he/she had? If obtunded, isn’t there some obligation to let the Court know?

    I know you’re probably busy, so thanks in advance.

  114. E Texas wrote “CW, I’m just saying, if you were to take “polygamy” out of the FLDS picture, it would STILL be messed up… BECAUSE of the belief system, the isolation and secrecy based on the LACK OF CHOICE. In other words, it would still be a destructive, mind controlling, religious cult.”

    I agree, but it’s funny how often a destructive, mind controlling religious cult turns to polygamy, at least for the elite or the sole leader. And it’s also funny how often very young girls are involved. It’s a control thing.

  115. Ron ” I’ve always suspected that even though Daddy may be highly placed, she’s “damaged goods” from having been contaminated by the gentile world.”

    Yeah, but the vision of royalty is right in front of her. I really think we know too little about her and there are too many variables in what life (or the priesthood) may throw at her.

  116. I’m guessing there arent too many FLDS men who want to take a “tiger by the tail wife”..

    Betty hasnt just been outside, she has a foundation of confidence and opinions in her own mind, she isnt just another “keep sweet lobotomy smile” FLDS veal chickadee some old guy is gonna push around.

    I doubt she ever gets married there, and I mean NEVER. Think about it.

  117. Stamp, I think you underestimate a few things about the FLDS males.

    First, a wife who is related to someone important is status for the male. Second, total number of wives are status for the male. Third, their arrogance is almost without bounds.

    I know it’s not in WSJ’s mindset to waste a uterus.

    But who knows? Time will tell I guess.

  118. Well, then Stampers let’s hope the “gifts of Naomi’ are paternally inherited and she has hope for some vocational pursuits.

  119. Betty, a uterus is a terrible thing to waste, however, it gives those in possession of one the ability to know where the ones who don’t have one, put their stuff.

  120. Laughing. And on that note, I’m off. Gonna work a shift at the domestic violence shelter.

  121. Miele

    50 grand for any felony is probably defensible. I don’t remember exactly what sort of felony Merrill was charged with – I know it was performing an illegal ceremony which (I think) is the lowest class felony which would mean that 100 grand would probably be a stretch.

    As to the other question – there is a big difference between binding your client and signing an order. In Merrill’s case, the lawyer didn’t bind the client to an agreement, that agreement had been made back in Sept 09 when Merrill was present.

    All the lawyer did was sign the order. There was nothing legally or ethically questionable about that. Besides, lawyers usually sign an order as to “form” only. This means all they’re really doing is approving the form of the order and not the substance of what’s actually said inside the order.

    So, the answer to the second question is “no.” No ethical, legal, or even CYA reason to let the court know about what’s going on with Merrill.

  122. Betty

    At the risk of sounding somewhat disgusting…

    I’m sure Merrill has enough uteri (hmm, is the plural of uterus “uteri”) with as many wives and female children he has to put Betty the bottom of the pecking order.

    Betty may very well think she’s a “big deal” now, but her perception may drastically change 10 years from now.

    I still say given she’s already 20 and unmarried, I’d say she’s pretty much already assigned to the FLDS old maid home.

  123. Or maybe Merril is waiting, hoping he can marry betty off to the Prophet when he gets out of prison.. Pretty secure dealings that way

  124. There are ample anecdotes that Betty J is a wild child, not your “off the shelf keep sweet gettum young” naive child.

    I dont see her being assigned to anyone she didnt SAY she wanted, and on top of that I dont see any wives wanting to hang out in the same house with her sharing a husband.

    Some people have a strong presonality and confidence in themselves, and thats actually OK. It just doesnt fit if you are expected to march about doing chores with a blank stare on your face.

    No, thats not Betty. I hope the best for her.

  125. Ron. Thanks again. I don’t know if you know it, but FLDS Legal Perspectives is very valuable, and I want to thank you for it.

    Most of the time in the legal aspects of this case, I’m lost. If you and Blues are happy, I’m happy. If you don’t like it, then I don’t like it either. See, you have the beginnings of your own cult.

  126. DD

    I’d love to see Betty giving Warren a piece of her mind while he is still in a Catatonic state.

    “I’m your main wife now you loser”!

    duuuhhhh, wtf? OK!

  127. Merril’s charge is Conducting a Ceremony Prohibitted by Law — Texas Family Code Sec. 2.202(d) — Third degree felony.

    The penalty range is 2-10 years and a fine up to $10,000.

  128. Miele

    I’ll say this:

    Go Natalie – file a turnover motion on Merrill’s attorneys and fight that fight. You could end up getting nothing but it’s a fight worth fighting.

  129. Back to Betty. (Carolyn, if you’re reading this. I apologize.)

    I’m evil. (and I’ll sue myself later for it and answer me nothing. I do it at What-a-Burger just like Rodney. The little piece of paper they give me is their ruling…but I still answer them nothing.) But if it were my cult this is what I’d do:

    1) Tell the kiddies that since Betty was touched by apostates, Heavenly Father won’t let ‘contaminated’ children come through her. So there is no point in her getting married. If you leave, even though your mother took you, you can never be a mother in Zion.

    2) Keep her in the family so I could keep an eye on her, and keep her pissed off at Carolyn. But give it a reason, like a ‘gift of Naomi’ deal. For example: Apostate touching = cooties. Coming back voluntarily = gift of Naomi. Hold her as separate and special.

    3) Make her a ‘teacher’ of ten year old girls. She could scare the bee-jeepers out of them about what it’s really like ‘out there.’ Make stuff up. The weirder, the better. When faced with marrying a 60 year old, a twelve year old would think she’s getting a great deal.

    4) Use her to taunt Carolyn. Over and over.

    She’s more useful as a internal PR tool than as another woman cranking out babies.

  130. TT –

    Yeah third degree felony is what most old time attorneys consider the lowest. Technically there are “State Jail” felonies but they’re really in many ways misdemeanors where the state picks up the tab for incarcerating the guy.

    So, in my book – 50 grand non-refundable is clearly defensible. Anything over that gets into the blurry range.

  131. Miele

    Perhaps it’s evil – I’ll give you credit – perhaps you’re simply being able to think like the others do.

    Your twisted logic makes perfect sense from the perspective of an FLDS Bishop. I actually give you credit for being able to anticipate how they might view Betty.

  132. That’s a good description of state jail felonies so I’m stealing it.

    I’ve tried in the past to explain what the difference is between them and regular felonies and couldn’t come up with a decent explanation.

    Have Miele sue me regarding the theft of words and I’ll answer you nothing.

    Miele,

    Could you pick me up a cheeseburger and a large Pepsi at the drive-thru while you’re suing yourself again?

    Hold the tomato.

  133. Off topic, but while I was wandering around in the Family Code I came across something that is relevant to the discussion at Bluesman’s place about the children at YFZ without their mothers in the event of the need for medical care.

    If a parent cannot be contacted and has not given notice to the contrary, consent for medical treatment of a child can be given by a grandparent, an adult sibling or an adult aunt or uncle.

    One or more of those could probably fit most of the children who were sent to YFZ by Warren without their mothers.

  134. This all brings up an interesting question, Merril is going to court for performing an illegal marriage, wouldnt that prevent any more polygamist or otherwise marriages at ZipperDale?

    Oh, I reckon they could do it, they are behind that fence and all, but wouldnt and couldnt that lead to more charges?

    Imagine that, no more fake hocus pocus Alice in Wonderland marriages out there.

  135. or the pedo in charge?

  136. Twist, if I’m not mistaken those signatures will do for emergent care, but the care center will pursue the signature of a parent or guardian. For legal and payment reasons.

    Carolyn gives a great example of that in her book. The hospital kept calling Ruth to get a signature to treat one of her sons. Merill wouldn’t even let her go see him. Remember that?

    I shall go to WAB, order your cheeseburger and large Pepsi. I’ll tell them round red things doeth no good. If they say, “No tomato?” I shall answer them nothing.

    If they hand me a paper that says W/O tomato, we win. If not, I’ve drive through again and appeal.

  137. Ron, my logic isn’t twisted. Like Rodney, I have none.

  138. which brings up a nother q.

    what records did barlow keep of such approvals?

    I bet his records have holes you could drive a truck through

  139. Stamp…Stamp…

    Since when has the illegality of something stopped some of them from committing criminal acts?

  140. Miele, the way the statute reads it doesn’t designate that the care has to be an emergency. It also covers dental and psychological care.

    I would imagine that providers would try to get something in writing after the fact to CYA for any civil liability, but in Texas the law does not require them to have written authorization from a parent or guardian prior to providing treatment.

  141. I would guess, Stamp, that one probably wouldn’t find records of such authorization at YFZ.

    I was thinking of times when/if it was necessary to seek medical services off the property. In that event, a grandparent, adult sibling or an adult aunt or uncle could authorize it.

    Under that statute in the Texas Family Code, as their biological aunt Barbara Jessop could have legally authorized medical treatment for the two daughters of Ellen Grace Steed (aka Young) Barlow aka Jessop.

  142. I remember that from the book, Miele — it was a very telling story about Merril as a father and his priorities.

  143. “When do they follow the law”

    Well not very often evidently! Telling the SCOU that Cock and Bull story about holy Cows really rang the bell for me and it should for not only the legal community but anybody with a nickle who can pay attention.

    I’d like to see the Dr’s license revoked for life, I’m sure he has broken every rule in the book.

  144. Where’s the logic? (I better duck Ron.) Little souls choose to be born to you, because you’re so righteous. (Assuming this is under Heavenly Father’s guiding hand.) Then when they are born, you do bone headed things like feed the kid in the hospital, or ignore supporting the superior souls who chose you. So who was right? When you think about it, you end up going around in circles. What causes this kind of thinking?

    I answer myself nothing. Tonight a Grey Goose will speak for me.

  145. When does Judge Beacham come back with his ruling on the Allen Steed case proceeding?

  146. Say Miele is that stuff any good?

  147. there’s no set time for the stted ruling.

  148. Miele I love your sense of humor on how you have pegged the FLDS’s legal tactics!

  149. Miele do you know any washing machines?

  150. GrannyToad, Miele is far too busy practicing law to do laundry!

  151. besides practicing law, she is frequently a party when she sues herself, but since she answer’s herself nothing, all is not lost.

  152. Regarding Betty– since everyone else is weighing in — I feel for Betty. That child is under enormous pressure and is being pulled in so many different directions. I imagine the internal struggle she goes through is immense, especially now that Barbara has died and is not around to torment her and work her around the clock to the point of exhaustion so that she cant even think.

    Betty is a product of what she was made. She is not equipped to deal rationally or maturely with the life circumstances that have been dealt her. She is, however, an adult and at some point will have to take responsibility for her own behavior — whether it’s her “fault” or not, whether it’s fair or not.

    Betty knows that her family on the outside loves her, but Betty is not free to reciprocate or express any positive feelings towards her mother or siblings. For the moment she is still on the inside of the cult and she must conform her behavior or there can be very severe consequences. I am sure her mother understands that. Maybe not her siblings because they are young and just finding their own way in the world.

    Having said that, even if we relieve Betty of responsibility because of the pressure she is under and because of the screwed up indoctrination/reward system she’s immersed in … Carolyn and her other children still have to shield themselves from the damage of the hurtful behaviors directed at them from Betty. It’s kind of like loving an addict — you have to love them from a distance or you get sucked into their vortex and become a slave to the addiction along with the addict. I believe Carolyn is aware of this and knows how to keep a proper distance and still love Betty. I can only imagine that her heart breaks over this situation, but Carolyn seems to understand that Betty is the one who will ultimately have to choose a different life if that is to be. Carolyn also seems to understand that as long as Betty remains in the cult, their mother-daughter relationship will be extremely restricted.

    It is sad for every one of them. Only time will tell whether Betty will choose to stay or choose a different life. One advantage Betty has over other FLDS women, Betty does know that there is the possibility of happiness and success on the outside, and she also knows that there is a whole family there that would be there waiting if she chooses to leave. Betty has a realistic choice that other women in the cult do not have.

    When Merril dies, life for Betty inside the cult will probably start looking a whole lot differnt.

  153. Well said, FLDS Texas. Thanks.

  154. Indeed. I think everyone wants whats best for Betty (and the other young people there) and that with whats happened, the chances for them are increased.

    I think a year from now when the 12 are all convicted and sent to various prison institutions there will be many that see the light.

  155. Maybe if the head of the snake is cut off the rest will see the light.

    But I doubt it.

    Some how the cult will have to realize they are a cult and been duped big time.

  156. i hope you are right stamp.

  157. E Texas read this post “to “out” himself to the legal authorities as a polygamist to even attempt it. He had valuable standing in the mainstream Mormon community which the leadership used to their financial advantage and did not want that threatened.”

    Please tell the LDS church officials, please out your ex. Please tell LE, don’t give him the financial advantage, tell the LDS church officials so he is exposed for his lies. File bigamy charges, if you are here in Texas, talk to a lawyer like Malonis to get legal help. I know several LDS church officials here in Texas, I would be more than happy to give them info on your ex, if he is a member of LDS church he needs to be exposed and removed from church membership for violating church law which teaches marriage is one man, one woman. Excommunication from LDS church and a one way trip to Huntsville, TX

  158. AA Texan; s a very active LDS member I fully agree with your suggestions to E. Texan.

  159. My ex is dead. After leaving I never spoke to him again.

  160. Is it my imagination or do the fundamentalist Mormons seem to have a shorter life span than we wicked gentiles? It just seems like dying young is common — but maybe it’s just that we hear about the younger people dying more often.

    I notice what seems to be a lot of cancer too. Is anyone tracking this sort of thing?

  161. Rebeckah, I have noticed that the FLDS women die much younger than the wicked “gentile” women and that the men seem to live much longer than the wicked “gentile” men. I attribute this to the women having so many children lowering their life span because of the what the toll of pregnancy and child birth does to the body and the asshole men live longer because they are catered to hand and foot by the stupid women.

  162. Another reason for short live span is stress – having to have no feelings of jealousy and keeping sweet could lead to elevated stress hormones which can cause major health problems.

    Caveat – not a physician and do not have any data on the life span of the FLDs

  163. Good points both of you. I tend to agree. :)

  164. I will do a literature search to ascertain if there is published objective data regarding lifespan and the incidence of cancer in fundamentalist Mormon communities. I probably can get back to you tonight or tomorrow at the latest.

  165. I remember reading somewhere that the radiation levels are higher there — the implication is that they are downwinders from the Nevada testing site. My geographical abilities are seriously challenged, however, so I don’t know how plausible or true it is. If they ARE downwinders then perhaps they should consider a new sanctuary — for the sake of their unborn children that they wish to conceive so much and then seem to care nothing about.

  166. One time I actually found online a chart showing the prevailing wind patterns from the Nevada test site and the Creek clearly lies in that zone. The chart said nothing about radiation levels just wind patterns around the Nevada test site.

    I suppose it’s possible they have higher radiation levels but above ground testing ended in 1963.

  167. From an article titled Downwinders on Wikipedia:

    In a report by the National Cancer Institute, released in 1997, it was determined that the nearly ninety atmospheric tests at the Nevada Test Site (NTS) left high levels of radioactive iodine-131 (5.5 exabecquerels) across a large area of the continental United States, especially in the years 1952, 1953, 1955, and 1957. The National Cancer Institute report estimates that doses received in these years are estimated to be large enough to produce 10,000 to 75,000 additional cases of thyroid cancer in the U.S.[7] Another report, published by the Scientific Research Society, estimates that about 22,000 additional radiation-related cancers and 2,000 additional deaths from radiation-related leukemia are expected to occur in the United States because of external and internal radiation from both NTS and global fallout.

  168. If you to this page you’ll see a diagram showing the areas covered by the government run compensation program. The blue and green areas are the “Downwinders” and you can see that the Creek is right in that area.

  169. The whole downwinder issue has fascinated me for some time. If you’re interested here’s a pretty good page from National Geographic.

  170. One of my favorite rockhound sites is or was Topaz Mountain area. Just south of Dugway Proving Grounds.

  171. The sccorpions in Arizona glow in the dark, well, with the help of a black light…. I suppose the ones in shortcreek do to.

    There is only one way to tell…

  172. The DOD HAS been a little sloppy out in the Utah area.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dugway_sheep_incident

  173. Still working on the literature search : thus far, I have tracked down an article on cancer in the state of Utah as a whole, (not just polygamy groups) and its relationship to intermarriage and polygamy in that state’s population. See it here :
    http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/cgi/reprint/54/9/2378.pdf

  174. Here is another article, written by geneticists,on neuromuscular disorders and cancers that are seen in increased frequency in Utah among the descendants of Mormon polygamists.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1716600/pdf/ajhg00412-0064.pdf

  175. I grew up in Washington State near the Hanford Nuclear reservation (our high school mascot was the mushroom cloud) & heard A LOT about the ‘downwinder’ issue. It turns out the people in Spokane that were/are complaining about being downwinders were never actually down wind & that it the only portion of the state to naturally have high radon levels. Remember in science you need to correct for all the variables & sometimes they aren’t all that obvious. But I’m just a science nerd…

  176. BTW All scorpions glow with the application of UV light not just in Utah;-)

  177. And so do some rocks.

  178. Oh, and ringworm. Blacklights have lots of uses.

  179. Check out Wendell with the Blacklight will ya?

    Ringworm, scorpion, sumpthin like that…

  180. I even lick some rocks, sometimes but no way in hell I’d lick Wendell.

  181. http://www.commondreams.org/news2005/0401-02.htm

    From the article:In a strongly worded editorial, the St. George, Utah Spectrum called on Leavitt to use his new political clout to “assist those who our government deemed necessary to use as guinea pigs.”

    “A lot of us are cynical about the whole thing,” says Preston Truman, president of Downwinders, who was one of the original members of a thyroid study Lyon conducted in the 1960s. “Maybe the CDC didn’t like that Lyon’s study was investigating other health effects caused by fallout exposure.”

    St. George resident Jeff Bradshaw, who was participating in Lyon’s study and suffers from thyroid problems, told the Spectrum, “I’d just say it’s another one of (the federal government’s) schemes. I think they’re trying to get away from doing anything for the downwinders because they want to start the testing again.”

    I believe there is a Jeff Bradshaw who is a cousin to the missing Steven Koecher from St.George area. I am not sure if this is the same Jeff Bradshaw.

  182. I’ve been thinking about the UEP and the general idea of letting someone build a house on your land and then telling them to move out of it. This may seem simple to some but it seems to me that any one who does this is asking for a lot of law suits.

    I lived in both a commune and a yoga ashram in my youth. I have maintained an interest in the problems of communal living over the years and have followed the history of many of these communities. I have friends who live at or have lived at some of the larger and/or longer lasting communities.

    I don’t know any other way to say it. At first I thought this was all a clever plan to make the big guys rich. But over time, I’ve come to the conclusion, that the way the FLDS do it is just incredibly stupid. Can’t poor urine out of your boot unless instructions are on your heel stupid. It’s just asking for trouble. It’s not just unethical – it is not even well thought out selfishness. Sure, I’ve known other idealists who made the same mistakes, but usually within 10 years or so they figured out where they went wrong and fixed the problem. The FLDS leadership counts so much on their total control of the members that they hit the problem, damn it to hell and never re-examine their mistake.

    You CAN own land, allow someone to build a house on it and then tell them to move out. However, you should have had some legal paperwork about the house, because you now have a problem. Either those people just gifted you with the value of the house and you owe taxes on that gift at the current market value or you owe them for the value of the house. There’s no two ways about it; a house or business or grain silo is in the terrestrial kingdom and in that location it is subject to taxes and law suits. It seems to me if the UEP has collected funds and paid the property taxes on the land AND the improvements on the land, then the ‘gift’ could be said to have happened at the time when the property taxes went up to reflect improvements. Without something in writing as to what the intent was when the improvements were added, I don’t see how a court could decide whether it is a gift to the UEP or a screw job on the former member. I would also think to not be considered fraud, there would need to be some sort of documented process in place concerning how someone is thrown out of the UEP beneficiary class. I know that I can’t change the bank signatures on the checking account for my local club branch without a written and signed set of minutes showing who has the authority to appoint the signors. So how someone can dispose of someone’s house without a piece of paper and get away with it just stuns me.

    So, in short, why don’t a bunch of apostates get together and sue to get the value of their homes back?

    The way that it is done in the two communities I know best is this: either you live in a barracks or dorm type structure completely owned by the organization or you have a lease for building and land (Twin Oaks sells 50 year leases) or you sell plots with strong strings attached in the deed. No one leaves that proprerty without satisfying those legal pieces of paper – either they have to get a release from the lease or they have to sell their plot and land to someone approved of by the organization as determined in the deed.

    Conclusion. The FLDS is living in fairy land and no one should be in the least surprised that the UEP falls apart. It’s even more bizarre to me that this is happening given that Rulon was an accountant.

  183. So, in short, why don’t a bunch of apostates get together and sue to get the value of their homes back?

    Actually that was the first lawsuit that lead to them trying to reform the UEP.

    It’s actually ironically funny. Apostates sued. The FLDS thought, “we’ll outsmart those evil apostates, we’ll turn the UEP into a charitable trust.” That lead to the state coming in and taking management of the trust away from the FLDS.

    Call it karma, God or whatever, but sometimes there is this cosmic justice.

  184. “So, in short, why don’t a bunch of apostates get together and sue to get the value of their homes back?”

    That was done in the past.

    See Stubbs, et. al. v. Jeffs, et. al.

    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=ut&vol=supopin&invol=jeffs

    That Utah Supreme Court ruling set off a chain of events that has bearing on how the Trust got to where it is today in the courts.

    Under the current legal status of the trust, my understanding is that apostates are now considered to be beneficiaries of the trust and so I don’t know that it is necessary for them to file suit against the trust as it was when they filed Stubbs v. Jeffs.

    I’m of the opinion that the UEP Trust as originally written was the result of some inadequate legal advice which long predated Rodney Parker.

  185. I hadn’t thought about how similar this UEPT thing was about real estate until what Betty wrote. A really old friend’s son was “allowed” by his father to build a really really nice home on father’s land but never got any deed for the dirt or any kind of paperwork. Well that last wife took the land in a divorce and yup he had to sue for the value of his home and move his family out into a mobile home … I don’t know the results yet.

  186. TT

    You’re right – apostates don’t need to sue now. Unlike in the past, their rights are being protected (well except by the Theocratic city governments.)

  187. Toad

    Those type cases frequently end up in court. There is always what’s known in legal circles as “a question of fact.” The question is always what the intent was when the building was done. Usually the landowner tries to say it was a gift and the builder says “hell, no.”

  188. Ron

    “Call it karma, God or whatever, but sometimes there is this cosmic justice.”

    LMAO! Indeed! It’s pretty tough to be a bully to people and put your actions in a lockbox that is legal.

  189. As I recall “Apostates” or whomever, who may have a claim, just need to file those with the Trust and then this is supposed to be sorted out on the back end when the subdivision happens.

  190. What if someone built there but does not want to live there now? How would they appeal to the trust? Do they either walk away empty handed or move back in? Or is that also part of the trust settlement issues already?

    I guess my main thought was that there is a legal way for the FLDS to have gotten what they wanted out of the UEP, even considering throwing people out, but they didn’t seem to even consider that.

  191. I agree that the builder is taking the greater risk in these cases, but if I were the land owner, I wouldn’t feel comfortable with the risk, either.

  192. So, do you think that they took the approach they did because of:
    A) incredible stupidity
    B) fairytale religious thinking
    C) fraud; a plan to transfer value from the many to the few
    D) all of the above

    I’m going for B and C.

  193. I’m going for D, though they got away with it for a long time. It just wont last.

  194. Stamp said this on February 22, 2010 at 9:20 AM

    “LMAO! Indeed! It’s pretty tough to be a bully to people and put your actions in a lockbox that is legal.”

    ========================================================

    So very, very true.

    It’s a good thing to remember civil, as opposed to criminal cases, can make new law or close up loop-holes.

  195. Come again!?? You get new case law out of criminal cases all the time.

    Why dont you cite cases that actually have a bearing on the matter.

    Or is it more fun to go around brain farting, forty?

  196. I say “D”, I think FLDS has always been more corporate than religious

  197. I see MaryKay has been eating to many peanuts again, LOL :)

  198. Well, I would say D to Betty, but “incredible stupidity” only applies to the builder. The other side would probably be evilly brilliant.

  199. Yeah but but the home builders in return follow the leader and get a ticket to the Cellosteel Kingdom, sumpthin like that….

  200. http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2010/feb/22/woman-sues-flds-leader/

    it made the local paper!!!

  201. Hey you guys take a look at this. I can’t copy and paste anything from it and I’ve tried to save it to my computer but it comes up weird. http://www.childbrides.org/YFZRanch_and_JohnCWayman_deed_of_trust_11-9-2008.pdf

    It’s 17 pages. If someone could save this so we don’t lose it.

  202. Walton; Thanks for that link. I saved the file and have sent it on.

  203. I hope that deadbeat dad, merril jessop gets his sorry rear end slapped into jail. IMO, he has no honor, no sense of responsibility and deserves everything he gets in the way of jail and fines.

  204. PT, I guess it took some time, but GoSanAngelo seems to have decided which side they’re coming down on.

    For a while there it almost seemed as if they were writing editorials. Now we’re getting some facts.

    It’s one thing if a guy stiffed his ex-wife for a couple of hundred dollars. But it’s a whole nother ball game when a father of eight, especially with one of them being a special needs child has never paid a penny. In Texas, that’s called a ‘dead beat dad.”

    After reading the article you linked to, and I thank you for that – now I’m confused. I thought MJ didn’t sign. The article says his attorney didn’t sign.

    I don’t know what kind of criss-cross apple sauce they’re playing with N. Malonis, but I think she gets it, and knows how to handle them. Go Natalie!

  205. Walson, that form is SOP when you’re lending money on property, except – I doubt their EPA burden is that of a normal residential property.

    Google Earth would indicate otherwise.

  206. I think if you open your self up to IRS problems and law suits, you may be evil, but you are not brilliant. The evilly brilliant guys are lying on a beach in Belize and we have never heard of them.

  207. This blog does a terrific job talking about this area! My spouse should clearly love this.

  208. Thanks Minneapolis Fridley for the compliment

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