Open Discussion #24, aka “WTF Cougar Ranch Thread”

Continued from Open Discussion #23

News of the Week:  Michael George Emack, Pleads No Contest, Sexual Assault of a Minor, Sentenced to 7 years in prison

Bigamy Charge still stands, Emack Attorney says he will plead that too.

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~ by FLDS TEXAS on January 23, 2010.

819 Responses to “Open Discussion #24, aka “WTF Cougar Ranch Thread””

  1. And according to the Tom Green County Sheriff’s office, is already on his way to the big house via the chain gang van.

  2. 10 + 33 + 7

    40 years.

    Three men down and nine still to come.

  3. I was wondering if there were going to be any plea bargains. I suppose that 33 year sentence got someone’s attention. I wonder if he defied Jeffs to make it?

  4. Interesting question, anonagain.

  5. Walton:

    “Stamp take an internet travel to Montana and Idaho.

    Sometimes that old gut feeling is just from bad cooking (hardly ever) and sometimes there is that gut feeling is there for other reasons.

    Pending on your google set up and the words a person uses it could take you into pages 5 and 6 on the google flight.”

    Can you share?

  6. Stamp let me see if I can find the right link. linkS.

  7. Seems to me that Michael Emack got a suspiciously lite sentence is he going to eye-witness against Warren in his pending Federal flight charge? He was taken away by the prison bus yesterday but was he headed for Huntsville or another more secure/protected facility? Next up is Merril Leroy Jessop charged with 1st degree sexual assault, by the Emack plead he’d be Offered 23-24 years.

  8. Maybe Mike’s safer on a bus. And wherever whatever unit he’s being taken to.

  9. “…Defendant, on or about the 20th day of August, 2006…did then and there…younger than 17 years of age and not legally married to the Defendant…”

    The victim was 15 when she married (July 27, 2006 as part of an underage triple-play) and 15 when she conceived a child in August 2006 and had just turned 17 when the events of April 2008 transpired.

    The Defendant was 33 and is now 35.

    “You are 18.”

    Uh, no, she wasn’t.

  10. I should clarify that the August 20, 2006 on or about is from the July 2008 indictment on the next up Merril Leroy Jessop.

  11. that triple play inolved 2 15 year olds and a 12 year old.

  12. Warren’s dictations clearly prove that these plural wedlocks were performed to ‘test’ the FLDS Church commitment to see if their temporal lives or the ‘Celestial Kingdom’ is the Priesthood’s first love. So how do we now look back upon all the mothers and plural wives during the YFZ Ranch Press Open House? You recall all the video interviews, Press questions and personal one-on one interviews? “Lies, Lies, Lies” as Flora Jessop has always spoken the truth about the fanatical women willing to,’Lie for the Lord’. Not one FLDS resident has ever come forward to corroborate any of the evidence even though 3 conviction verdicts have been reached. Funny how nobody saw nuthin’, heard nuthin’ or recalled nuthin’. Seems very fanatical and diehard religious zealotry to me but they are fine and upstanding people, Not!

  13. Stamp do you have my e-mail address?

    cajim how do you know that Emack was hauled off yesterday? I am not saying you don’t know, I just want to know how you know?

  14. http://justice.co.tom-green.tx.us/Scripts/UVlink.isa/tgcrisc/WEBSERV/JailSearch?action%253Dview%26track%253D346900

    He was booked at 12:31 and released at 4:40. In this instance, released means to the chain gang van.

  15. As the first post shows Walton, it’s on the Tom Green County jail website that he was released at 4:40PM yesterday. It shows he was released, not as a freeman, but as an inmate being transported to Huntsville, then most likely to another prison unit somewhere in Texas.

    Tom Green County, Texas
    Jail ID 346900
    Tom Green County Sheriff’s Dept.
    Confined 01/22/2010 12:31pm
    Released 01/22/2010 04:40pm

    Defendant
    Emack, Michael George
    865 N Midway St
    Hildale, Ut 84784
    White Male 5′ 9″ 170 12/13/1950
    Hair Brown
    Eyes Brown
    SO# 82633

    Cause Charge Disposition Bond
    993 SEXUAL ASSAULT CHILD 01/22/2010 – Held NOBOND

    http://justice.co.tom-green.tx.us/Scripts/UVlink.isa/tgcrisc/WEBSERV/JailSearch?action%253Dview%26track%253D346900

  16. Willie big gut still had to get a word in at the media. I really wish he would go take care of his own family, doesn’t he know he isn’t at the YFZ so he’s not one of the chosen?

  17. Once again I really want to make clear that I wasn’t trying to say that Cajim didn’t know. I just wanted to know how he knew. Please take no offense Cajim because none was meant.

    I just am having a real tough time with what I read about this story. It never use to be that way. I use to believe just about everything and then…. now I try to make sense of what is written and a lot of it just doesn’t make sense.

    So many twists and turns and straight out misleading stuff out there.

    I’m not blaming Texas or those in Texas. I have a lot of respect for Texas and those in Texas that helped with all this. I am blaming those that appear to be bigger than Texas.

    Who/Whatever that is ranks right up there with those in Utah that play the mind games so well.

  18. The United Nations considers polygamy to be human rights abuse. I have a hard time believing that our Federal government would legalize or even decriminalize something most of the world condemns.
    ————————————————————–
    The United Nation considers the death penalty to be a human rights abuse. We don’t necessarily obey every proposal the UN comes out with.

  19. Emack is so pervball looking. Eckkk. He should get an enhanced sentence for making some underage girl marry his ugly arse.

  20. al haven’t’ you read the US Constitution yet, the part where it says what the Rights and Responsibilities of the US Gov are, and who the rest of them belong to?

  21. No, Al, we don’t necessarily agree with everything the UN comes out with. In the case of polygamy, however, I’d say all the available medical data pretty well supports their conclusions. If you’d like to counter the medical data, feel free to get a grant, some research assistanta and start gathering facts for yourself. Until then, claiming that women are generally happy with polygamy is akin to claiming that dinosaurs never existed; totally unsupported by the fact at hand.

  22. Next trial pending is – Merril Leroy Jessop. Is he the same Merril Jessop who Carolyn was married with?

  23. Carolyn’s stepson. Merril’s son with Babs.

  24. No still pictures of it, but you can watch a video of Michael Emack’s perp walk.

    http://conchovalleyhomepage.com/media_player.php?media_id=396371

  25. Alinusara 10,
    The UN based its opinion on polygyny being a human rights violation on the available medical research data.
    Medical research has shown that religious polygyny has a negative effect on the mental and physical well being of women and children, in every culture where polygyny has been studied to date.

  26. Honey Dawn has come out of the closet and revealed herself.
    Check her blog today.

  27. Thanks for the heads up, cw.

    Word Press is still hinky for me to post at her blog, but to HoneyDawn I say…

    Nicely done.

    I missed the Lizard People entry, so I’ll have to go read that one.

  28. Walton I only mentioned Emack’s transfer by bus from Tom Green jail. It’s of public record and no secret. Now if your asking where was he taken that is not of public record but most presume Huntsville.

  29. OMG – Honey Dawn. Well, it does feel good to know my assesment was correct. Sheeesh.

  30. I stopped by to drop her a line… but dang I was really looking forward to when HoneyDawn was actually attacked by her fellow wives for being as dense and as horrible as she was in her “sweet way”…how would Honey Dawn spin it?…..now that I think about it her ability to warp everything – like sister wives should live together but not me because I am doing important work Pratt says reminds me of some posters on the SLT….

  31. Does anyone know where the video is, that has the wife asking her husband how old she is?

  32. When all these men end up in prison, there will be a ton of women without husbands, I wonder what they will do?

  33. i think it was on cnn anonymous @4:44, but its also in the notes of ruby who was a cps or casa worker.

  34. cajim – i’m not sure if huntsville is the first stop in the prison system or if there is an intake facility that he will be taken to first.

  35. We know someone in the town I live in, who was sent to prison for DWI. He went into the local county jail,, and from there transferred to the EL PASO jail in Texas the same day.
    Not all prisoners go to huntsville, nor do they necessarily stay in the same prison once they get there. For instance, this guy sp ent 1yr in El Paso Texas prison, then sent to a prison in Houston for the rest of his sentence.

  36. OH, my WORD

    The Huge McEGO popped his gourd!

    And to top it all off, he said “Wife” SEVEN times – thats once for each year Emack got sentenced to prison!

    Oh yeah baby I needed some irony in my diet!

    THANKS HUGO!

  37. Stamp,
    I saw that.
    Huge Ego is threatening litigation ….
    What a joke.
    What does he think he will pay the lawyers to file the papers, given the fact he is broke?
    Isn’t he the one who drags other people and their families through the mud on a regular basis ?
    His hypocrisy knows no bounds.

  38. In the video of the perp walk, there is some earlier footage of Emack with a different attorney, who is far more Hollywood than Randy Wilson. Who is that?

    And Randy Wilson’s lower lip didn’t quiver when he spoke, no matter what the Standard-Times reported.

    This is relevant to nothing, but I’ll wager fifty cents and a package of Ramen noodles that Michael Emack has false teeth.

  39. What makes you say that, GFNY?

  40. Just how they look in the perp walk video when he smiles.

    (I just think false teeth would be extra special for a young bride. More special even than sagging buttocks, varicose veins, and that nasty fungal infection on the left big toe.

  41. Indeed, these older men are real “chick magnets” for the adolescent female.

  42. IF Randy Wilson’s lip was quivering, its because he lost another criminal case. He LOSES all his criminal cases!

  43. is there anywhere else to view the videos on cnn.com? my computer doesnt let me watch them

  44. i saw that other attorney, but i’m not sure who it is.

    did ya notice that emack didn’t have his shirt buttoned all the way to the neck? he’s flaunting his status as a prisoner already.

  45. does randy have any more of the flds as clients?

  46. I wrote an article about Mike Emack to help you know more about him. http://flds101.blogspot.com/2009/05/flds-people-101-mike-emack-engineer.html

  47. The Hollywood attorney is Gerry Goldstein.

    The first thing I noticed about Emack in the video was the Grecian formula.

    Randy has one more FLDS client. I’ll have to look up who it is.

  48. The third client is Leroy Johnson Steed.

    His trial is currently scheduled for 12-6-2010 and is the last one scheduled before the separate bigamy charges and Warren Jeffs.

  49. FLDS101: Great article as always, thanks.

    Almost makes me feel sorry for the guy. Almost.

  50. Well, I’ve been forcing myself to read Hugh’s old posts because I feel a keen need to clear my name from the accusation of rumormongering. One thing I’d like to point out for those too intellectually challenged to realize it, is that not one post I’ve ever seen has tried to name Hugh’s wife by name, track her down, threaten to contact her or impinge on her life in any way. I’d say Hugh’s projecting a little based on his own personal behavior with people who piss him off — and based on the way the people he aligns himself with behave.

    Secondly, Hugh brought his wife into various discussion AND it is perfectly normal when someone is rabidly patriarchal and advocating polygyny to be questioned as to his wife’s feelings about it, should he actually have a wife. As near as I can tell, Hugh isn’t actually concerned for his wife, nor does she even need to know there’s been so much aa a passing reference to her, unless Hugh is as into tattling as his attack on the Colorado Police officer indicates. No, I’m only speculating here but I believe in my gut that Hugh’s issue is that we’ve spoken his greatest fear — that his wife might just be getting fed up with him and ready to leave. For her sake, I certainly hope so.

    Oh and Hugh, feel free to BRING IT ON!!!!

  51. i thought it was a great article too FLDS101. Can you supply one for us on Keate?

  52. Oh, and the point I started out to make is simply this — the fantasy of taking over a small town in Montana isn’t new to Hugh — he wrote about it 3 years ago. Apparently disregard of the law has been a closely held motto of his for a long time. Anyway, feel free to verify my rumormongering here:

    http://hughmcbryde.blogspot.com/2007/12/new-year-goals.html

  53. eh, Rebeckah, tell us how you really feel ….

  54. sigh, I’m sorry. I’m very touchy right now and it isn’t because of the blogs. Granted, I don’t respond well to being accused of something I didn’t do in the best of times, but this particular point in time is even worse for me. I’m going to take a few days off and let my hormones settle.

    Sorry everyone. Delete if you want to Admin, I understand.

  55. Oh, and please let me explain my “intellectually challenged” was directed Hugh’s way (I know he reads this blog) and not at any poster here.

  56. So I just wanted to give a big Thank you to TexasFLDS.

    This blog has been so very informative and educational. And the peeps on here are by far the most civilized blog crowd I’ve had the pleasure of learning from.

  57. I like how he talks about his wife’s NEAR ivy league education & NEAR Olympic caliber athlete (i.e. she’s not and isn’t). Near to me is the same as close & that is only important in horseshoes & hand grenades. Use it in any other sense and you are just blowing hot air and trying to look important when you really aren’t at all.

  58. Pathgirl,
    Your name interests me.
    (are you a pathologist?)

  59. No, I’m actually pathologist assistant @ a very large public teaching hospital in Texas. I actually train residents who are working to be pathologists. Everything solid tissue taken out of the human body (legs, breasts, biopsies, placentas, colons, etc…) comes to me first.

  60. Thanks for your service. I greatly respect your profession.

  61. thank you ;-)

  62. For those of you who have concerns about teenage brides giving birth – I thought I would post evidence based medicine (EBM) about the risks to the mother and child. Our belief that young women should not be having children is based upon scientific fact, not simply feelings or opinion. Here is one posting :

    http://www.fetalneonatal.com/content/58/1/6.abstract

  63. Females under the age of 18 give birth to more preterm infants than older women do. Prematurity increases the risk of fetal disorders such as cerebral palsy.

    http://journals.lww.com/greenjournal/Abstract/2000/12000/Obstetric_Risks_of_Pregnancy_in_Women_Less_Than_18.18.aspx

  64. Here is more EBM on the effect of teenage pregnancies on maternal and child health :

    http://212.58.231.23/downloads/theme_population/POPTrends93_v2.pdf#page=21

  65. We have had some weather issues here so I couldn’t get back until now.

    Thank you Proud Texan for bringing over that video. And once again thanks to all of you who put up with my “show me” attitude.

    Stamp did ya find anything yet? Fighting Fundamentalist go back a couple of years and use the cached thing.

    Hugh has been banned from his Church: http://startpagina.paginablog.nl/startpagina/2009/12/I_8217_ve_been_banned_from_my_church.html

    Hugh doesn’t like law enforcement: http://www.fundamentalforums.com/the-fighting-forum/32375-you-want-to-try-me-tonight-young-boy.html

  66. Hugh McBryde
    Banned

    How in the heck does one go about getting themselves banned from a place called The Fighting Fundamental Forum?

  67. With Hugh’s mental flights of fancy, or fantasy, are we sure he has a real wife? And not just some blowup doll that he keeps in a corner dressed in a prairie dress???

  68. Hella funny.

  69. Has anyone noticed that the “Christian Polygynists” have formed a new denomination, or hope to do so?
    Here it is, apparently :

    http://www.assembliesofchrist.org/

  70. Rebeckah

    “Secondly, Hugh brought his wife into various discussion AND it is perfectly normal when someone is rabidly patriarchal and advocating polygyny to be questioned as to his wife’s feelings about it, should he actually have a wife.”

    Indeed. If someone pops open a can of crazy people are going to say “Dude, have you performed a smell test?”

    Hugh’s ideas STINK, and his wife HAS to KNOW, that is if she can boot a computer and check up on his online antics.

    (Evidently thats how he was excommunicated, and under threat of Trespass arrest to boot – The Church members follow him – OOPSY )

    So why would anyone tattle on poor Hugh? He has made all this public right in her face, how not very sweet of him…. rather it shows the cold side of him, his crassness, his disregard for his marriage vows that presumably he made.

    (fingers crossed like that 1953 raid lady in Nat Geo?)

    That short visit with Randy Weaver really must have left an impression on the Hugh.

  71. Cat

    Is the Hugh a founding member? ha ha

    Anyway, its a poor website that – is put together about as well as trailer park on the prairie.

  72. Thread updated with a perp walk picture of Emack. Also found the write up on him by FLDS 101 very informative.

    Thank you!

    – ADMIN

  73. Oh Lordy!

    Hugh got banned from that Fundamental site, after some 5,000 posts in which he was the only one I saw who had been redhanded to death before getting banned………..

    (does he collect Blog Bannings as a badge of honor? A Hobby for Hugh, WHO KNEW?)

    His stats were “Huge McBryde is infamous around these parts”…

    Something future wives and future psychologists should take note of!

    I wonder if his wife was the one who opened the letter from his church threatening him with criminal prosecution if he steps foot on church grounds or functions.

    This may explain why he is so touchy about his wife knowing what a PHOOLERY he is. Look, how is he going to hide the fact he was booted from church from her? And its his own fault, the letter was a response to his threatening thread he has up called “New Year Revolution” dated 12-23 on his blog.

    So ya gotta wonder……

    http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0BwUXfGcfXHWsYzRjZjI3YmEtMjc2YS00MjM4LThjYzAtNTlmMzVmOTNhYjlm&hl=en

  74. Two examples of incest among the FLDS and particularly within the Jeffs family.

    Rulon Jeffs assigned two of his granddaughters (daughters of Donna Jeffs and Wendell Nielsen) to marry their blood uncles (William Balmforth Jeffs and Wallace Hammond Jeffs).

    At least the granddaughters were 19 and 21 when they were married to their uncles in the early 1990s.

    But still…

    Eeeeeeeewwwwwwww.

    And yes, both of the marriages produced children.

  75. Stamp,
    No, to the best of my knowledge, he is not the founder of that new denomination. I had not heard of that denomination till now.

  76. Twist

    Thats just sick. Who in their right mind would stand for that?

    Oh wait, that was back in the day when the FLDS thought could do no wrong.

    They have another think coming.

  77. How did you run across it? I was just joking anyway, I think the penny jar is gonna be used for the trailer park on the northern tundra prairie.

  78. For those of you who have concerns about teenage brides giving birth – I thought I would post evidence based medicine (EBM)

    Not fair! Trying to confuse the PPSG with facts. What are you trying to do – make their heads explode?

  79. FLDS101

    Great article. You really lay out the facts in an unbiased manner. Too bad journalism is such a crappy career right now.

    All I can say about your article is that its simply mind boggling. Warren’s pathology is spreading destruction far and wide.

  80. Pretty bad when a church, sends you and letter threatening to have you arrested if you come on their property.

  81. Maybe Hugh should check himself into the nearest mental ward.

  82. Is the victim in the upcoming Merril Leroy Jessop trial the underage daughter of Wendell Nielsen?

  83. Apparently Emack is going to be the FLDS equivalent of George Reynolds and plead to bigamy in order to get the constitutionality appealed.

    I assume the fact situation is different than Holm v Utah since the bigamy arises out of a case distinct from the sexual assault of a minor (can anyone fact check this?)

    Anyway, it will be interesting to watch this case as it goes through the appeals process.

  84. “Is the victim in the upcoming Merril Leroy Jessop trial the underage daughter of Wendell Nielsen?”

    No, she is his stepdaughter. Her mother was reassigned to Nielsen when her father was kicked out.

    Her natural father is LeRoy Steed Jeffs, Warren’s older brother who scares the bejeebus out of him.

  85. Difficult to say, Ron.

    The copy of Emack’s Bigamy indictment that I have gives the on or about day for the bigamous marriage as April 3, 2008. The name of the person he was allegedly in a bigamous marriage to is redacted on my copy of the original indictment which was filed on 8-21-2008 in Schleicher County.

    That is most likely an error and I assume an amended indictment has been filed, but if so I don’t have a copy of it.

    As far as I know, Emack was married only once while in Texas and that was on 8-5-2004 at YFZ to the victim in his sexual assault conviction.

    If that marriage is the bigamous marriage, then the facts are similiar to Holm as both cases would involve underage girls.

    Emack is legally married to Sarah Hammon.

  86. Deppitydog so far as I know, interestingly – checking oneself into a psychiatric facility keeps the law from being able to come arrest you on charges.

  87. Clarification after self-editing.

    The 4-3-2008 on or about date is most likely an error on the original indictment.

  88. Ron,

    You may be thinking of Wendell Nielsen’s bigamy charges.

    None of his three counts involve an underage person.

    I don’t think he married any of his wives underage at any time.

    I cannot say that is true for his progeny or the stepchildren placed in his care and then there’s the two examples of his daughters being married to paternal uncles.

  89. Twist

    Seems like I read in the media that Emack is going to plead guilty to bigamy for the purposes of appealing the statute.

    I could be wrong, wouldn’t be the first time.

    See, here’s my interest. The loyal soldier will plead guilty when the general tells them to plead. However, supposedly the FBI already approached Emack about turning states evidence.

    So, is he being the loyal soldier like George Reynolds or trying to bring down the “boss” like Sammy the Bull?

  90. I believe Randy Wilson did say that, Ron.

    For what that’s worth.

    I’m not taking it to mean that Emack’s charge is unlike Holm. I’m taking it as standard spin coming from those who are defending the FLDS defendants.

    Frankly it won’t surprise me if all of the bigamy convictions that may result will be appealed as Holm was.

    All they have to lose by doing so is a continually growing nut for attorney’s fees.

  91. i don’t see how they think that there is any challenge to a bigamy committed with a person they were prohibited from marrying.

    wendell i can see trying to challenge the bigamy law, but not emack, keate, raymond, etc. they are all charged with bigamy resulting from the purported marriage of an underage girl.

    and i hope when the bigamy appeal fails that they will then get richard samuel jessop who announced on the oprah show that he was married to 3 women. if utah had any balls whatsoever, they would indict joseph jessop who announced on the cover of a national magazine that he was committing bigamy.

  92. Ron, where did you hear the FBI had approached Emack? I hadn’t read that anywhere. I waa acatually thinking, Emack plead because Flds are running short of funds, although they wont tell the public that.

  93. TexasTwist,
    Thanks for the clarification on the victim being Wendell’s step daughter.

    But, Wendell is the adult who had the authority to OK the union of this child on July 27, 2006 when the leaders (1st Presidency of the FLDS) were swapping daughters to become child brides, right.

    Is her mother Sally Jeffs? Is this girl the sister of the girl who agonized so long in childbirth?

    I have a hard time keeping them straight and you are so good at it.

    Thanks for answering my questions.

  94. Also, I thought Mike Emack was legally married to Anna Mae Hammon. Are you sure it is Sarah Hammon?

  95. yes anon @ 1:21, leroy’s child bride is a sister to raymond’s who agonized in labor for 3 days. as a side note, its suspected that leann was pregnant when the removal took place and she was still just 16. that makes her having 2 kids while underage. and yes, sally is her mother.

    as for emack, sarah hammon was his legal wife. his 2nd wife was celia barlow and his 3rd was alice mae hammon, sister of his legal wife. ruleen was his 4th wife.

  96. Ron, where did you hear the FBI had approached Emack?

    I think FLDS 101 said its in Warren’s dictations.

  97. I highly recommend everyone read FLDS 101’s article on Mike Emack.

  98. “Wendell is the adult who had the authority to OK the union of this child on July 27, 2006…”

    He was her FLDS stepfather at the time, yes.

  99. I’d also add that 7 years while not indicative of cooperation is lighter than the 10 years given to Jessop and much lighter than the 15 year average for sexual assault of a minor.

    It could just be that budgets are tight but the lighter sentence could also be some sign of cooperation.

  100. deputydog1,

    In Warren’s dictation of 7-27-2006, he says that the FBI called Mike Emack on his cell phone.

  101. emack also didn’t have the bad acts that raymond or keate had. he wasn’t linked to money laundering like raymond and didn’t have a bunch of underaged daughters he married off like keate.

  102. i don’t know what kind of bad acts we’re going to get for leroy, but according to some, he’s really mean.

  103. TexasTwist and ProudTexan,
    Thanks so much for the info. Ya’ll are our genealogists extraordinaire!

  104. Ah do believe the results are data organized on a gedcom ‘specially built for these circumstances.

  105. Great article about Mike Emack on FLDS 101–thanks!!!!

  106. Until then, claiming that women are generally happy with polygamy is akin to claiming that dinosaurs never existed; totally unsupported by the fact at hand.
    ==================================================
    Oh no Rebeckah I never claimed that women are either happy or unhappy with polygamy. It seems to work for some and for those I say more power to them. For those who prefer not to live that lifestyle under our great nation they can make the choice to say no.

  107. Alin,
    The medical literature on polygamy indicates that the first wives or senior wives are those who find polygamy most intolerable.
    The most junior wife in the relationship is statistically speaking the person who usually “choice” in the matter of their husbands taking a second wife (or third, or fourth) ?
    Not usually in Islam, and it appears that most wives in polygamous relationships in fundamentalist Mormon families were not asked for their opinion either. The Prophet appears to be making that arrangement for them. Hardly a “choice” for the women.
    As for exercising “choice” and divorcing their husbands, most women in polygynous relationships with young children lack sufficient funds or support which would enable them to depart from the relationships which were no longer satisfactory. See Dr. Janet Bennion’s text “Women of Principle” on the topic. She is a researcher who actually lived with two polygamous Mormon communities and wrote two textbooks on the topic.
    Doesn’t seem like much of a choice to me, Alin, not for the women.

  108. Sorry, Alin, a typo occurred.
    Here is the corrected document :
    The medical literature on polygamy indicates that the first wives or senior wives are those who find polygamy most intolerable.
    The most junior wife in the relationship is, statistically speaking, the person who usually finds polygamy satisfactory.
    What “choice” does a senior wife have
    in the matter of their husbands taking a second wife (or third, or fourth) ?
    None usually in Islam, and it appears that most wives in polygamous relationships in fundamentalist Mormon families were not asked for their opinion either. The Prophet appears to be making that arrangement for them. Hardly a “choice” for the women.
    As for exercising “choice” and divorcing their husbands, most women in polygynous relationships with young children lack sufficient funds or support which would enable them to depart from the relationships which were no longer satisfactory. See Dr. Janet Bennion’s text “Women of Principle” on the topic. She is a researcher who actually lived with two polygamous Mormon communities and wrote two textbooks on the topic.
    Doesn’t seem like much of a choice to me, Alin, not for the women.

  109. Al,

    If you think unhappy FLDS women can leave you havent been paying attention.

    Your assignment this week – read “ESCAPE” by Carolyn Jessop.

  110. And why are these women punished with being placed between two intolerable choices? Because in America their men are allowed to break the law with virtual impunity.

    Also, it’s pretty hard for a 15, 16, etc. girl to say “no” to those in authority over her, particularly in a closed, authoritarian society. You are (again) being facile, Al.

  111. Alin,
    Since you think that women have a “choice” in the matter of whom they or their husbands will marry in fundamentalist Mormon circles, perhaps you should consult our resident expert, Honey Dawn on the topic. She has come out of the closet, you know, and she has revealed that she is a woman who did leave a polygamous sect. She might provide further insight for you.

  112. Yeah,

    Alin needs to read HoneyDawn and get Ambushed by Facts.

  113. Alin still keeps bringing up the same old lame arguments….and not wanting to learn any truths, or research any facts, or listen to those who know of what they speak. He prefers..the, they all have choices, excuse.

  114. In Warren’s dictation of 7-27-2006, he says that the FBI called Mike Emack on his cell phone.

    TexasTwist said this on January 24, 2010 at 1:39 PM

    Coincidentally, this is the very night that the 3 leaders in the FLDS 1st Presidency swapped their 3 underage daughters to become child brides in the “triple play”, as its been called.

    Could this have been a “placement” revelation Warren had as a middle finger salute to the US Government?

    Maybe it was more in defiance of the FBI than a commandment of God?

    Timing just seems too coincidental to my suspicious mind.

  115. And speaking of Honey Dawn…I see the ‘GOTCHA’ was revealed. I’d like to see her continue…in an adult form…talkng more about her previous life. The Honey Dawn blog was just a tad too silly for me. I kept wanting to post was a silly childish little tattletale she was. At least she didn’t turn out to be a gross old ugly cretin like “Megan”. He was just downright creeeeepy.

  116. Well cretainly Warren didnt get the message the boom was gonna get lowered.

  117. Yeah, MC1199, “Megan” has returned… with some utterly ridiculous excuse for the pilfered fetal ultrasound …she saw it on a website, and thought Kaiser Permanente has posted her confidential medical data on the internet. LOL!

  118. i think warren thought he was invincible. he fixed it so that if he got caught with his pants down, 3 others would be going down with him, namely merril for performing the illegal union and the merril’s sons raymond and leroy for taking their own underage bride. up until that time, leroy had stayed relatively clean (as far as i can tell). he had no previous underage wives. raymond on the other hand had previously married janet underage and aldo warren’s daughter lenora.

    nothing like keeping it all in the family for raymond. maryann, lenora and teresa were sisters, rosemary and janet were sisters, mary and marie were sisters and elizabeth and rhoda were sisters. elizabeth and rhoda were also aunts to janet, rosemary, maryann, lenora and teresa.

  119. look at emack in his perp walk pic. he’s already out of priesthood dress code, his shirt isn’t buttoned all the way up.

  120. Emack the Disco Duck

  121. mc1199

    “HoneyDawn” PWNED duane on her last thread!

  122. YES! I saw that. Poor duane…..another fantasy crashes to earth. Where will he land next? I rarely read Megan…was he there fawning over ‘her’, too? What a schmuck!

  123. Not to be outdone by his latest rants, Hughly McMisunderstandingtheconcept emailed his Church “Insisting” he get membership.

    “I have renewed my written insistence that the local body of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church admit me as a member in a letter sent via email today:”

    January 02, 2010

    Say, does God have an email address so Hugh can make demands there too?

    Outlandish bloviations are a dime a dozen in the Hugh Box.

  124. Can a church get a restraining order against someone?

  125. I reckon anyone can, get the court order, show cause.

    There was abundant cause, and Hugh actually was expecting a restraining order,

    Instead, at least the document I have, is just a letter telling him he is not to Trespass, and that not only were the police notified but they were carbon copied the order.

    They could likely have that enforced if he showed up at the Church, but probably not if there was a function at a public park, without a judges full restraining order.

    Well, its an interesting way for him to start the new year, having been served a fresh boot to the ass.

    Kinda reminds me of that John Lester guy, who is still lost in the woods somewhere.

    Search party, anyone?

  126. My word its a January Trifecta!

    Emack does the Disco Perpwalk dance

    Duane gets booty kicked by Honeydawn

    Hugh gets booty kicked by his Church

  127. You know, Emack sure was smiling a lot in his perp walk video.

  128. Maybe Hugh is a fake blog character, too, like Megan and HoneyDawn. The latest entry seems a bit over-the-top to me. I mean specifically parts like:

    “I will be on you LEGALLY like a heat seeking missile.”

    “I would have to divert income from debt service, and thus bankrupt myself, but I would do it.”

    “…trouble raining on you so hard that you will need the Super Dome for a hat…”

    “I will fry every one responsible for doing so, in a legal onslaught limited only by my ability to earn money and pay legal representation”

  129. “I will fry every one responsible for doing so, in a legal onslaught limited only by my ability to earn money and pay legal representation”

    His ability to earn money and pay legal representatives is the limiting factor here.
    More hyperbole from the Pharisee

  130. An additional limiting factor : finding an attorney willing to have someone like him as a client.

  131. Well, the internets are full of his bullying and obtuse behavior.

    Here is a real gem, it looks like he started out January 2008 getting canned from his favorite blog, abusing other posters,

    I think he has a case of Terminal Grump.

    After some 5300 posts, this is near the end of the line for him there.

    http://www.fundamentalforums.com/the-fighting-forum/39911-calling-out-2007s-witch-of-the-year-grannylo-2.html

    START WITH THE VERY BOTTOM POST BY “FORGODSOLOVED”

  132. And then it continues and only gets better for Hugh on the next page.

    The next person Southernlouisianagal says:

    “How dare *you* of all people call someone a witch?

    You are not a man, you are a poor excuse.

    Sad.

    Please leave again. We didn’t miss you.”

  133. I am absolutely amazed that McBryde has not had that stroke he feared he had. Seems he has been a complete ass on the internet for a long time. What a sad pathetic little male. Here is a comment from almost 3 years ago on that site Stamp cited.

    ***
    12-31-2007, 05:22 PM
    More_Than_Jaded More_Than_Jaded is offline
    Like It, Love it, Gotta Have It

    I was truly hoping that Pugh’s sabbatical was to get some much needed psychiatric help with his obsession over small red/green things … alas, I was wrong (I can only imagine his reaction to M&Ms). Does anyone else literally laugh out loud when they read the posts of a supposedly grown male (the word man was omitted intentionally) as he spirals towards a complete e-meltdown?

    I have to say it is entertainment in its purest – and cheapest I might add – form for me and it will be a shame when he finally internally combusts and we don’t have him anymore.

  134. Is Emack husband to Maggie Jessop?

  135. No, I think Maggie was reassigned to Wendell Nielson after Warren kicked out her original “husband”.

  136. Truly, Hugh’s litigious wrath is an everlasting wrath.

    It would be dreadful to suffer his legal fierceness one moment but any internet poster who provokes him must suffer it for all eternity.

    There will be no end to this exquisite horrible misery. When you look forward, you shall see a long forever in the court system.

    It will be boundless duration before you, which will swallow up your thoughts and amaze your soul!

    And you will absolutely despair of ever having any deliverance, any end, any legal mitigation, any rest at all (unless he runs out of money).

  137. you know, i’m not sure where maggie is these days. mudpuppy said he was waiting for her, so she might be in florida for all we know.

  138. Too funny ProudTexan, you think warren has “rewarded” mudpuppy for all his lies by making Maggie a present to him?

  139. well cupcake wanted him to meet her daughter and he said he was saving himself for maggie, although from the stories i’ve heard, maggie isn’t any prize. she’s looney.

  140. maggie who?

  141. As requested, I put together an article on Allan Keate. See; http://flds101.blogspot.com/2009/05/flds-people-101-allan-keate-machinist.html

  142. Although I have never met Maggie Jessop, she is my friend. We may not agree on theology, but we both love God and try to live as our faith has taught us. She is kind and resourceful and tries to make the best of her situation without complaining. She writes beautifully and is far from looney. I may never hear from her again but I count her as a friend and it has been a blessing to know her.

  143. Thanks once again, FLDS 101 !

  144. Didja ever get a chance to ask Maggie if she knew about her 14-year-old sister wife and if so, what she thought about that?

    Or how it felt to have your brother-in-law decide your marriage of 18 years was kaput?

  145. Thanks Linda Lamb, for that stunning analysis of someone whom you admit you don’t know.
    Fascinating.

  146. No, I didnt. I’ve never asked questions of her like that which would hurt or offend. I have come to the conclusion that this religion is a way of life that its members accept and consider to be right. I would have a very hard time obeying a leader such as Warren Jeffs and seeing him as God’s prophet on earth for today. I dont even follow my own husband as being my unquestionable head. It is Christ who is the head of the Church and Him only will I serve. But the FLDS have a different system and they have been brought up in it to believe it is right and the ONLY right way. It must be horribly confusing to see all that has happened and have their belief system questioned by so many. It has been my feeling that if the rest of the God fearing world points at them and accuses and makes fun of them, what would possibly attract them to want to be part of us?

  147. Anon

    The never ending story of the Huge McMeltdown!?!?

    I found that thread fascinating, people had him pegged years ago.

    I kinda want to compose a rap song with all the names they called him.

  148. “It has been my feeling that if the rest of the God fearing world points at them and accuses and makes fun of them, what would possibly attract them to want to be part of us?”

    And the alternative would be to overlook the actions and sweetly and quietly turn our heads?

    That I want no part of.

    I can understand not wanting to offend a friend, but I believe that the issue of sexual exploitation of children is far more important.

    Sometimes the truth is a painful thing.

    Avoiding the truth creates its own injuries.

  149. I don’t think the rest of the God fearing world points at them or makes fun of them.
    The rest of us in the God fearing world think they have been abused by their own leadership for a very long time.
    It must be terrible for them to have their families broken apart by their leaders with the reshuffling reassignments, their sons driven off as lost boys, and their money confiscated by the leaders of the priesthood organization. It must be terrible for a young woman not to be able to achieve her dreams, if these dreams involve something other than have huge numbers of children.
    I don’t see anyone outside their compound persecuting them Linda – their persecutors are right there, on their own compound.
    Spare me your pseudo Baptist sanctimonious ramblings.

  150. I’ve thought for a good while now that moniker’s covering a fake.

  151. Anonagain asked: Can a church get a restraining order against someone?
    —–
    The PD I worked for had a restraining order out against a chronic caller. I used to keep a copy of it, cuz I worked the area where he lived. The judge basically told him he could ONLY call 911 if he was on fire, couldn’t breathe or was being held at gunpoint by a robber…or else he’d go to jsil! He was [and probably still is] just as irrational as High. Maybe they are cousins?!

  152. linda lamb, i doubt seriously you have a clue who maggie even is, much less corresponded with her. they lines you’ve quoted are strait off mudpuppies blog. all those who have met maggie say she’s looney as a tune and since they have actually met the woman and not copied a thought of a convicted felon, i think i’ll go with their version.

  153. looney in what way?

  154. Twist,

    EXCELLENT post! To me, it addresses the Hugh issue as well.

  155. Off topic; but how about those Indianapolis Colts going to the Super Bowl. Go Colts

  156. Are we talking about the Maggie Jessop who is the first wife of Raymond? Nothing looney about staying with a husband who has an illegal under aged concubine! No sirreee, that’s the sort of behavior that makes me know that a woman really loves God.

    OK, I am now finding it hard to believe that Linda Lamb is for real.

  157. Texastwist I agree with your position and we’re back to Linda Lamb trying to stand on some moral highground but now with convicted felons. Does this covert group of fanatics show any signs of remorse or even admit to any wrongdoing? When confronted with insurmountable evidence they plead,”No Contest” and follow blindly their leadership into prison. Linda Lamb elected officials have stated that this sect is a crime syndicate and you refuse to view them in this light rather you choose to blind yourself, as they have, but don’t guess that the rest of us choose your form of self-induced impairment.

    Can you name me how is it that a series of indictments have been brought against this supposedly ‘God fearing congregation’ and no Public comments nor corrective action(s), have yet been initiated. No one has resigned in disgrace, no one has vacated their office/authority and even after conviction no leader/member is disciplined. Isn’t the behavior here like some underworld crime network?

  158. Hugh is not worth the energy that it takes to move our fingers over the keys.

  159. Geaux Saints!

  160. We are told by scripture to visit those in jail and to provide comfort. We are NOT told to make light of their wrong doing. Two different things.

  161. isnt she leroy/wendells wife?

  162. As much as I often disagree with Hugh, I do understand him being upset with someone sounding like they were going to involve his wife.

    Hopefully, no one would do such a thing.

  163. Ron, I didn’t see anywhere that someone sounded like they were going to involve Hugh’s wife in anything? There has of course been speculation as to her sanity, but then she is married to Hugh so……..

  164. Seems I believe someone at least said something to the effect of “maybe we should talk to his wife….”

  165. Yeah, LadySadie, I didn’t notice anyone sounding like they were going to involve his wife, either. But maybe Hugh is responding publicly on his blog to a private message he received.

    I’m a bit nervous, though, as I’m pretty sure I’m about to be lawyered into oblivion (where there will be nothing but wailing and gnashing of teeth) for even mentioning Hugh’s living saint of a wife.

  166. If you disagree with the man, speak to the man. Don’t bring his wife into it. He’s protective of his wife which I think a man should be.

  167. “Go Colts”

    Go Saints.

    It’s been a long time coming.

  168. Ron wrote:
    Seems I believe someone at least said something to the effect of “maybe we should talk to his wife….”

    I went back through two days of comments after his first outburst concerning his wife. The ONLY comment I could find about her directly was one suggesting that she is probably considering leaving him. Honestly, I think that this is just a cheap tactic by him to keep internet interest on him by being morally outraged about something that didn’t really happen. It’s a non event. Especially considering that there was a round recently of people posting pictures of the family of others, any offense here has been very, very mild and certainly not worth the bipolar hissy fit he went into.

  169. Maggie was/is LeRoy’s/Wendell’s wife.

    I don’t see a parallel in McBryde’s spouse and Maggie.

    McBryde’s spouse hasn’t appeared on Larry King Live.

  170. at last check, maggie had been reassigned to wendell, but i don’t think she’s living at the compound with the rest of his wives.

  171. FLDS101 – thanks for the post about keate.

  172. Ron,

    No one has ever said they were going to involve Hughs wife, further than he has.

    Since he has spoken of her, usually the context is “What does Hugh’s wife think about that?”

    For instance, Hugh said his wife would accept polygamy, perhaps, if he was rich – or in similar words.

    No one really knows if he has a wife anyway.

    Oh wait, Hugh said this:

    “Wife number two says she loves me. 90-95% of the time. The rest of the time she refers to me derisively as “Lord and Master”.”

    http://www.fundamentalforums.com/the-fighting-forum/39911-calling-out-2007s-witch-of-the-year-grannylo-13.html

    This is a real interesting thread, Hugh took a dis as a compliment and told about his entire family.

    Sad deal, but its Hugh that starts the talking.

  173. Betty

    I would call that a “Cyber Bully TISSY fit”

  174. Rozita hasnt appeared on any news shows either, that doesnt stop Hugh from Harassing her and the police in an attempt to force their hand.

    I think that backfired on him pretty bad though as I recall…

  175. I haven’t figured out what he’s so protective about (as he claims that she already knows absolutely everything) but still, I agree with the sentiment of not contacting Hugh’s wife and I sincerely hope that no one tries to do so.

    I can’t help enjoying the way he chooses to be protective of his wife, though. It’s as hysterically overwrought as everything else he writes.

    Of course, is all assuming that Hugh and his well-nigh-Olympically-athletic wife are actual people.

  176. Ugh, sorry, it should be “Of course, THIS is all assuming…”

  177. That’s the way it appears, PT.

    At any rate, she wasn’t on the Texas Stake of Zion’s 2007 bishop’s list with the YFZ wives so she must have been living in a different stake at that time.

    Three of her youngest children were listed in the Texas Stake of Zion in Nielsen’s YFZ household in 2007.

  178. On new years day, 2008, Hugh got this response:

    “The many layers of Hugh…. labels assigned by friends, family and foe…..

    Resistant
    Shrek
    Creepy Old Man
    Would be lawyer
    Would be pastor
    Pharisee
    Honest
    Failure
    Difficult
    A “certain orifice”
    Deliverer of promises
    Lord and Master

    Anyone care to add to the list?”

  179. Well, Stamp, clearly what Rozita needs to do is get herself a protective husband with a yen for lawsuits.

  180. LOL, ellie.

  181. PT, this bit from Maggie Jessop’s interview with Larry King leads me to suspect that Maggie wasn’t living at YFZ at the time of the raid, either:

    LARRY KING: Maggie, what happened the day they were taken? Where were you, where were the kids?

    MAGGIE JESSOP: I was traveling out of state and my children were there on the ranch. And I got a phone call that said what was happening. And I can’t even describe my feelings.

    KING: You were shocked?

    M. JESSOP: Oh, absolutely. I was shocked.

    KING: Where was your husband?

    M. JESSOP: I’m not sure where he was at the time, because we didn’t have the phone contact very well at the time.

    KING: Are you with him now?

    M. JESSOP: I’m with these two now.

    KING: Are you with your husband together in — are you living together?

    M. JESSOP: I’m in L.A. . I’m not sure where he is.

    KING: You’re being cute with me, Maggie. No. Is — are you still with your husband?

    M. JESSOP: Of course. I claim him always.

    KING: OK.

    M. JESSOP: He is my — I don’t live with him.

  182. Well, I guess the question I have is why is anyone talking about Hugh’s wife?

  183. I can’t speak for everyone but I’m only talking about her because of Hugh’s online hissy fit.

  184. And you know, now that Betty mentioned it, I realize I’m probably playing right into his hands…

  185. I can’t speak for everyone but I’m only talking about her because of Hugh’s online hissy fit.

    I understand where you’re coming from and given Hugh’s patterns I think that’s more than fair.

    I’m just saying that he wouldn’t be having this hissy fit if folks on this site hadn’t started talking about his wife. My two cents is that despite how folks may want to rationalize that the discussion should not have been on his wife.

  186. I dunno, I think discussing the other “spouse(s)” is a pretty normal line of conversation when discussing polygamy.

  187. Ron,

    I’d agree with Ellie, the whole kit and kaboodle is about “wives”, isnt it?

    And the abuse of same?

    Now, he brought his wife into the equation first, and discussed on what terms she would accept the polygamy he was working so damn, SO DAMN hard to legalize.

    First question out the gate, is what would ANY wife think about a guy willing to trash can his marriage vows?

    Its a valid topic, made more so by Hugh bringing her to the table, and giving everyone license to comment on the issue.

    NO ONE that I have ever seen here or eslewhere is making any attempt to harass Hugh or his wife in the public sector, though he does seem to invite it with his harassment of Rozita.

    Even then, nary a word to out them. I’d challenge you, him or anybody to point to anything different.

  188. As for exercising “choice” and divorcing their husbands, most women in polygynous relationships with young children lack sufficient funds or support which would enable them to depart from the relationships which were no longer satisfactory.
    ===================================================
    I encourage you to give time and money to organizations that support women who are unhappy with their current relationship and wish to leave. Hate to say it but due to our high divorce rates I would suspect millions of both men and women are not happy in their marriage.

  189. Alin,
    Since you think that women have a “choice” in the matter of whom they or their husbands will marry in fundamentalist Mormon circles, perhaps you should consult our resident expert, Honey Dawn on the topic.
    ——————————————————-
    That’s some funny stuff. Our resident expert is widely regarded on these forums as a fake.

  190. Ron,

    Now you are not only being stubborn, you are being insulting! I cared enough about the quality of posts here that I went looking through the past for the problem and found that there was nothing there to get upset about. Certainly there was less here to be upset about than what Hugh has personally done to me! I suggest that if you are really upset about such comments, you go find them yourself and report them to the admin to get them deleted. Which, BTW, is what Hugh would have done if he were even remotely rational. Point out specific posts with time stamps and topics so that there is no misunderstanding about what you find offensive, please, and I’m sure the admin will take it seriously.

  191. Al,

    Most of the people who are regular posters here either work with women in crisis as a job, give money to such organizations regularly and/or volunteer in such organizations already without your self important advice. We’ve all heard your repetitious garbage 100 times. Please distribute it elsewhere. Your lack of concern about real, proven abuse is hateful.

  192. I’d agree with Ellie, the whole kit and kaboodle is about “wives”, isnt it?

    No, it’s about the FLDS. It’s not about some guy in Vermont and whatever his relation is to his wife. I also question whether Hugh ever put his wife “on the table.” I rather suspect that he was responding about how his wife felt.

    Even then, nary a word to out them. I’d challenge you, him or anybody to point to anything different.

    You may be right. However, ugly discourse is nothing but ugly discourse. If you want to be associated with that then go right ahead.

  193. Oh please Ron.
    When Hugh was going on for months about Rozita I went looking to see if it was just Rozita or if Hugh the poster (not the real person) had a history of verbally ATTACKING people and their families.

    Hugh the postr has a hisory of ZOOMING in on people. The man has aome major issues.

    As I’ve said before he is wound up tighter than a rubberband.

    He himself goes into much detail about his personal life in the month of July on his very own blog.

    No one had to do any digging. He put he and his own family out there for the world. Real or not.

    jmo

  194. I also noticed that Hugh’s rant about leaving his wife alone has garnered more comments than any other post on his site this mont.

    Which I guess must be nice for him considering his keen interest in site traffic counts.

  195. Alin: Oh no Rebeckah I never claimed that women are either happy or unhappy with polygamy. It seems to work for some and for those I say more power to them. For those who prefer not to live that lifestyle under our great nation they can make the choice to say no.
    ……………………………

    The FLDS is not a club that you join. It’s a cult in which members are indoctrinated from birth that they will be damned by God if they don’t do what Warren Jeffs tells them to do.

  196. No, it’s about the FLDS. It’s not about some guy in Vermont and whatever his relation is to his wife.
    ——–
    Really? I haven’t read his blog too religiously but I thought the topic came up, not because of the FLDS but because he (Mr. GuyInVermont) wanted to be in a polygamous relationship.

    I think “And what does your current wife think about that?” is a natural (not ugly) follow-up question.

  197. Now you are not only being stubborn, you are being insulting! I cared enough about the quality of posts here that I went looking through the past for the problem and found that there was nothing there to get upset about.

    I’ve insulted no one. If you’ve taken insult then that’s you.

    The fact is that the discussion turned quite a bit onto his wife. Was it fair given Hugh’s behavior in the past? I have no idea. I just know that I wouldn’t want folks discussing my wife.

    Was Hugh’s response over the top? Maybe. However, whether real or not he perceived a threat and responded.

    My point is whatever your feelings about Hugh I don’t think his wife should be brought into it.

  198. Re: Huge Ego: An additional limiting factor : finding an attorney willing to have someone like him as a client.
    ……………………..

    Attorneys will take on anybody who can afford to cough up a retainer. Money up front, that’s the limiting factor.

  199. I agree, ellie. My challenge to Ron to find an actual offensive post related to My StillCrazyInVermont’s wife stands.

  200. I don’t read Modern Pharisee blog, I guit last year. He could fall off in a deep hole somewhere and it wouldn’t matter to me.
    I quit reading when he
    1. Started posting pictures of Rosita, and making false claims about her and her life

    2. when he jumped on board with bill medvecky in trashing Natalie Malonis ( whose has children)

    3. when he called and made unfounded charges against a woman police office and went so far as to make those charges to her superior.

    Personally, I think his wife is a “Saint” for living with a screwball such as Hugh. I have NO respect for him at all.

  201. If someone, anyone, from any of the many sites that Hugh has either already been banned from, or currently spews his nastiness towards other people on in any way tries to contacts Hugh’s wife then Hugh has a right to do what he says he is going to do. Problem solved.

    Since no one has ever even mentioned doing that on this site, why are people on this site being told “not to do it”?

  202. Not all attorneys, Anon. I’ve known them to turn down a case because they don’t like to work in a particular area (some hate divorces, for instance) or don’t think the case will win. And I know of several specific cases where the person was turned down for being crazy, but they attorney actually used some other excuse. They have to present often times to the same hand full of judges and if you develop a reputation for bringing fruit loop pleadings before a judge it’s not good for your career.

  203. Linda: It has been my feeling that if the rest of the God fearing world points at them and accuses and makes fun of them, what would possibly attract them to want to be part of us?
    ……………………….

    Read Irene Spencer’s autobiography about life as a Fundamentalist Mormon plural wife. She is now a Christian, and in her book she talks about how wonderful it is to now belong to a church that is loving, accepting and supportive.

  204. Years ago I thought I wanted to know who posters really were but then as time went on it didn’t matter. The person posting words made the person.

    There was also a time I wondered about Stamp. I was sure Stamp had a live show going somewhere and I wanted to see it. Stamp has a way of making me laugh and the art of saying it like it is and I appreciate that.

    I don’t care who Hugh the real person is in real life. I’ve never signed on to his blog because I don’t trust the man. He is spiteful and in the poster world he appears to be mean spirited.

    again jmo

  205. Alin: Hate to say it but due to our high divorce rates I would suspect millions of both men and women are not happy in their marriage.

    …………………………….

    Yes, statistics show that 50% of all marriages last forever.

  206. I’ve said all I am going to say about Hugh.

    I want to know what the big deal was for Emack and crew. Why were they so worried about the fridge and freezer in South Dakota?

    Bet thet would have focused more on heat. Baby it’s cold outside.

  207. Ron,

    Certainly you dont expect this site or any other that unviels abuse to point to faults of the FLDS only.

    There is plenty of abuse, lies and even endearing stories out there in polygamy land.

    They get discussed. It happens.

    Megans blog,

    Bill M

    UAP

    Kingstons

    Hugh

    HoneyDawn

    LeBarons

    Lafferties

    There is a ton of stuff out there to discuss, and Hugh is but one pint sized kick-poodle who yaps a lot but finds he is neutered.

    The fact that his polygamy dreams are neutered by his domestic situation that he himself has exposed can certainly be a topic, and seeing the type of rants he posts, ensures it.

  208. I also noticed that Hugh’s rant about leaving his wife alone has garnered more comments than any other post on his site this mont.

    Which I guess must be nice for him considering his keen interest in site traffic counts.
    ……………………….

    Which is why I don’t read his blog – so as not to add to his hits.

    The worst insult you can give to someone is to ignore them.

  209. Betty: Not all attorneys, Anon. I’ve known them to turn down a case because they don’t like to work in a particular area (some hate divorces, for instance) or don’t think the case will win. And I know of several specific cases where the person was turned down for being crazy, but they attorney actually used some other excuse. They have to present often times to the same hand full of judges and if you develop a reputation for bringing fruit loop pleadings before a judge it’s not good for your career.
    ………………

    Yes, you have a point. But the several attorneys I know have all told me that if the client doesn’t have deep pockets and there is no hope of winning any $$ for damages, either from the other party or the other party’s insurance company, they don’t take the case.

    If the issue at stake was something they personally felt strongly about, like the constitutionality of anti-bigamy laws, then I suppose they might argue it for free.

    It doesn’t sound like Huge Ego is offering up any kind of career building issues to defend.

  210. Anon

    On that note, Hugh himself is proud of the fact his has been banned, and therefore ignored, by any number of forums

    (Originally Posted by preachinjail

    “Wondering how many of those forums he asked the SAME question?”)

    HUGH:

    A couple, and I’m not there anymore. In most cases, people like you run the forum and I don’t have to ask, I get booted.

    http://www.fundamentalforums.com/the-fighting-forum/28947-should-i-stay-or-should-i-go-now-5.html

  211. OK I love a challenge:

    Rebeckah: 1/23 @7:27

    No, I’m only speculating here but I believe in my gut that Hugh’s issue is that we’ve spoken his greatest fear — that his wife might just be getting fed up with him and ready to leave. For her sake, I certainly hope so.

    Simply not very nice and rather tacky. I understand Hugh rankles folks but was this really necessary? To Rebeckah’s credit she realized she reacted strongly and even asked the Admins to delete.

    mc1999: 1/23 @11:56

    With Hugh’s mental flights of fancy, or fantasy, are we sure he has a real wife? And not just some blowup doll that he keeps in a corner dressed in a prairie dress???

    OK – this one was sort of funny and reminds me of something I might say – but still – it’s demeaning to his wife.

    Stamp 1/24 @

    “Secondly, Hugh brought his wife into various discussion AND it is perfectly normal when someone is rabidly patriarchal and advocating polygyny to be questioned as to his wife’s feelings about it, should he actually have a wife.”

    Indeed. If someone pops open a can of crazy people are going to say “Dude, have you performed a smell test?”

    Hugh’s ideas STINK, and his wife HAS to KNOW, that is if she can boot a computer and check up on his online antics.

    (Evidently thats how he was excommunicated, and under threat of Trespass arrest to boot – The Church members follow him – OOPSY )

    So why would anyone tattle on poor Hugh? He has made all this public right in her face, how not very sweet of him…. rather it shows the cold side of him, his crassness, his disregard for his marriage vows that presumably he made.

    Why is it relevant what his wife knows? Why the rationalization that it’s ok to talk about it since he’s “brought his wife into it? How is any of anybody’s business other than him and his wife?

    I can’t defend Hugh and I understand he’s probably done more than enough to deserve whatever scorn and derision comes his way, I’m just trying to point out that sometimes you guys are the proverbial pot calling the kettle black.

  212. The FLDS is not a club that you join. It’s a cult in which members are indoctrinated from birth that they will be damned by God if they don’t do what Warren Jeffs tells them to do.
    —————————————————–
    I think you are a mite confused. I wasn’t talking about FLDS I was talking about polygamy.

  213. Attorneys will take on anybody who can afford to cough up a retainer. Money up front, that’s the limiting factor.

    Anyone who runs their practice like that is in for a world of suffering. There are many folks that simply aren’t worth whatever money they can pay.

  214. Alinusara,
    Perhaps you should review the divorce statistics in countries wherein polygamy is legal – take Indonesia for example.
    The divorce rate in polygamous couples is nearly double what it is in monogamous couples.

  215. Ron, you are one of the few then. Most attorneys will take any case, and its not based on their principals, its based on MONEY!
    lets face it, anyone can get a public defender if they are unable to pay, but they get a lousy defense.
    The attorneys represetnting the FLDS intitution are Large companies,, and they do it because FLDS DO have deep pockets!
    The lowly flds members, do without because of attorneys and their fees. Let’s face it, Gerry Goldstein isn’t do this case on principals, hes doing it for the Big Money, same as Rodney Parker.

  216. Ron,

    Point taken, especially in regards to the buffoonery threats from the “Lord and Master”

    Attorneys whove met him probably have a nickname for him. I wont speculate. Yet.

  217. DD

    Public defernders, AFAIK, are only allowed for the defense of felony charges.

  218. I would suggest Alin that you read Honey Dawn’s blog.
    She came out of the closet on Saturday afternoon.
    Feel free to ask her questions regarding the situation of
    women in her group.

  219. Hey, I was wondering if Judge Walther, or any other judge for that matter, has ever ruled that ANY of the evidence taken from the YFZ was indeed taken illegally…or if perhaps this is just another example of bad/deceptive reporting on the part of the publisher for this Mohave County based publication, which likes to call itself a “news paper”.

    February hearing set on searches of FLDS property

    By JIM SECKLER/The Daily News

    http://www.mohavedailynews.com/articles/2010/01/25/news/local/local4.txt

    “Arizona law enforcement officers also spent time in Texas with illegally seized items and documents”.

    anybody know?

  220. Ron,

    None of those posts (post Huge rant BTW) named her or attemted to communicate with her – but rather, show the inner struggle that Hugh faces in his polygamy quest farce.

    Nest post, “Hugh Outs his Family”

  221. I honestly did not see those when I went poking around. I find the one about the blow up doll offensive and no matter how I tend to agree that Hugh is mentally unbalanced, dwelling on that in relation to his wife is less than kind. IMHO, all the above posts should be deleted.

    However, I also think that talking publicly in favor of polygyny opens the door to speculation about how your current wife feels about your beliefs. We have lots of proof that first wives generally are not asked, and often don’t even know until after the fact. I don’t see that as “bringing his wife into it; in fact discussing polygyny with out discussing wives is a feat of illogic. But there is no need to be rude or personal about a theoretical discussion.

  222. I’m just trying to point out that sometimes you guys are the proverbial pot calling the kettle black.
    ——-
    I guess it works both ways, since I thought it was pretty pot-kettle-black of Hugh to declare his wife ‘off-limits’ after the things he’s written about Rozita, Natalie Malonis, etc.

  223. Boots, them’s pretty strong words. I know of no such ruling. In fact, the ruling which returns the children to their parents states that there was significant evidence of abuse in specific cases and specifically states that the investigation should continue. No mention in that ruling against the quality of that evidence.

  224. Well I expect a double standard from Hugh, I guess I’m just holding you guys to a HIGHER standard. :)

  225. OK – except for Stamp. :)

  226. From Boot’s article:

    Piccarreta’s argument is that Arizona law enforcement investigators were “tainted” by evidence that was allegedly seized illegally during the raid.

    Last time I checked “tainted” taint fruit from the poison tree. Should make for a nice dog and pony show though.

  227. I suspect Boot’s article is just bad editing. I suspect the “illegally seized” should have been part of the preceding paragraph talking about the taint. Which means that they’re quoting Pic’s argument.

    Either way it’s bad journalism.

  228. I guess the journalists get off the hook with the word ‘allegedly’.

  229. Ron,

    If I am the one who is known for putting Hugh back in his high chair, thats OK.

  230. Thanks Betty, I didn’t think so either but if anyone can show me otherwise I’d sure appreciate it.

    BTW, Mr. Seckler is the very same reporter that I showed documentation of the Colorado City child deaths to just days before I was fired after the Mohave County under sheriff and the editor for this publication were overheard in public laughing about how easy it was to get me fired.

    They knew I was fired before I did.

  231. For the record

    Hugh OUTS HIS FAMILY 1-1-2008

    HUGH:

    “Wife number one called me “resistant”.

    Our (minor child) calls me a “Shrek” affectionately. “Daddy”, (child) says, “You’re a Shrek.” My other (minor child) calls me “Creepy Old Man”. Apparently when translated that means “I love you”.

    My mother thinks I should have been a lawyer or a pastor. That’s interesting, because I think of my self as a pharisee. Those that know scripture know that pharisee is not always a pejorative in the word of God.

    My Dad regarded me as a failure. Oddly, my mother later said I was most like our father, of all the children.

    Most people I work with see me as difficult. Some have referred to me as a certain orifice.

    Wife number two says she loves me. 90-95% of the time. The rest of the time she refers to me derisively as “Lord and Master”.”

    http://www.fundamentalforums.com/the-fighting-forum/39911-calling-out-2007s-witch-of-the-year-grannylo-13.html

    I recommend to Hugh’s supporters or relatives to NOT read any more of that thread, you will be disappointed in him big time.

  232. Boots that article was a full load of carp. Poor reporting or outright lies, I can’t say.

    There hasn’t been any such ruling about anything being illegal, and that’s Texas’ business not Mohave County in Arizona. There’s no hearing coming up in February in Texas on that baloney either. Let me guess, some FLDS owns that paper and the opinion editorial with all the lies is FLDS too?

  233. “I suspect Boot’s article is just bad editing”.

    Or maybe just a bad editor, lol.

  234. Yeah, I hadn’t read Boots’ followup post yet when I wrote that.

  235. Huesos,

    I’ve never been sure what the connection is about. I just know there has to be money involved.

    This publication went out of its way to go after me and to destroy Buster Johnson before I ever arrived in 2005.

  236. Stamp

    Usually you go after folks in a light hearted rather flippant manner.

    You seem to have Hugh in a whole other set of cross hairs.

    I’ve said my piece so there’s not point in beating any dead horses.

  237. Ron

    I dont suffer fools who threaten to sue me lightly.

    I check em out and hang their laundry for em.

    This way, when he trots into a law office, he can show the attorney his crazy posts and explain why he is right and nobody else understands him.

    Oh, theres more too. He is as daffy as Bill and the posts proving it are simply endless.

    He started that thread “WITCH of they Year = Grannylo”

    Needless to say he got little love for that one. This, another posters wife. Hugh refused to apologize, indeed repeating the insult numerous times.

    What a man, what a man. Bet Randy Weaver would be proud.

  238. Stamp, I had to go read that fighting fundamentalist forum post. Imagine Hugh ‘going after’ a woman who dares to be ‘domineering’!?!?

    Very sad. I have been impressed by the amount of damage one jerk can do to a group of people, and by the good one noble spirit can do.

    And for the record, I don’t see any grounds for a lawsuit in any of the comments in question.

  239. That right there ^ is what I mean about Stamp.

    Incase you forgot Stamp..I love you. :)

  240. “Arizona law enforcement officers also spent time in Texas with illegally seized items and documents.”

    Good catch, Boots.

    The answer to your question is no. No court has ruled that any of the evidence was seized contrary to law.

  241. Arizona law enforcement officers also spent time in Texas with illegally seized items and documents.
    ==================================================
    Now that is some pretty pisspoor editing. It still is, at this time allegedly illegally seized items and documents.

    To be fair it was the prosecutor in Arizona who requested a suppression hearing. Pretty brilliant move if you ask me. If the evidence is ruled to be legally obtained then it can be used in Arizona. Besides, why are you so frightened? If the evidence was legally obtained then Judge Conn will give an identical ruling as Judge Wathers.

  242. Who’s frightened? We already know that Arizona has a long history of either letting sex offenders go or giving them a light sentence if they are fundamentalist Mormons. Won’t surprise us at all.

    But I really think that the Arizona court will find that the search warrants were in fact legal.

    Even if they had some suspicion of a hoax, it is SOP to assume that calls of this type are not hoaxes because of the possibility of personal danger should it not be a hoax. Ditto Fire department, coast gaurd, domestic disturbance, etc. So getting into the ranch to see if there is such a person seems quite reasonable to me; once in the ranch, there were ample reasons to get further warrants right in clear view. For instance, the girl who asked her “husband” how old she was and he said “You’re 18″ – that was the “wife” of M Emack. She wasn’t 18. So this upright, man of God lied to law enforcement to save his own butt from being arrested. Thank goodness that didn’t work.

  243. For instance, the girl who asked her “husband” how old she was and he said “You’re 18″ – that was the “wife” of M Emack. She wasn’t 18.
    ==============================================================
    That’s some amazing stuff if true. CPS cannot by law release notes taken during an interview and there was no trial of Michael Emack so that shouldn’t be public knowledge.

  244. Alinusara, WRONG! CPS notes were released not sealed. You idioit!

  245. So how did that statement “you’re 18″ get into the news, Al? It’s been printed in multiple places. Don’t tell me you’ve never heard that? We also have the NG photos showing a 20 year old woman, also the victim in one of the indictments, with a four year old baby. She was on the ranch. You don’t seriously believe that there are 12 indictments, 3 convictions so far, and no clear signs of under aged brides on the ranch?

    Bad acts were also entered prior to the plea and are available through freedom of information act.

    See the blog flds101.

  246. For instance, the girl who asked her “husband” how old she was and he said “You’re 18″ – that was the “wife” of M Emack.

    Betty – I am curious how you know that. Is it in the affidavits to the search warrants? I didn’t know they ever put a name to the “you’re 18″ female.

  247. when cps filed that certain children should remain in the States custody, they filed with the court. Those filing are public information once filed with the court.
    Transcripts of hearings on motions are also public, You Twit!

  248. Alinusara, WRONG! CPS notes were released not sealed. You idioit!
    ———————————————————
    That’s the problem you tard. CPS notes cannot by law be released to the public.

  249. DD, he never reads anything that conflicts with his preconceived notions.

  250. “…it was the prosecutor in Arizona who requested a suppression hearing.”

    You sure about that, al?

    Because I read this differently:

    “The defendant, Warren Jeffs…hereby respectfully renews his request for an evidentiary hearing on his motion to suppress…”

    http://www.mohavecourts.com/highprofile/743%20-%20Request%20for%20Evidentiary%20Hearing%2011-19-09.pdf

    That said, I understand why Piccaretta is pursuing that tack in the Arizona case and don’t see it being done simply as a delay tactic.

  251. The FLDS is not a club that you join. It’s a cult in which members are indoctrinated from birth that they will be damned by God if they don’t do what Warren Jeffs tells them to do.

    ============================================================

    There have been converts.

  252. Al’s redirection is classic. The problem is not that the man lied about his child bride. The problem is not that the poor girl did not even feel free to state her age truthfully without asking her master for permission. No, the problem has to be with CPS, the evil baby robbers.

  253. “You’re 18″ – that was the “wife” of M Emack. She wasn’t 18…

    That was not Emack’s wife — it was one of Merril Leroy Jessop’s wives and no, she wasn’t 18. She was barely 17.

    alin,

    That was in Brooks Long’s affidavit in support of the second search warrant. It has been public information going way back to April 2008.

    Tell me you have at least read the affidavit?

  254. Anon 1/25 12:42…

    When? Since Warren’s reign began? And you know this how?

  255. Sorry, I seem to be getting my details all mixed up today. Thanks for fixing it, TT.

    I am beginning to agree with Rebeckah’s theory about Al.

  256. Judge Conn does have a history of looking the other way when it comes to a man keeping concubines.

  257. “…interviewed a child on April 4, 2008, who appeared to be approximately sixteen years of age who identified herself as Lee Ann Nelson Jessop; that Tina Martinez asked Lee Ann Nelson Jessop her age in the presence of Lee Roy Jessop; that,
    before responding to Tina Martinez’ question, Lee Ann Nelson Jessop looked at Lee Roy Jessop; that Lee Roy Jessop told Lee Ann Nelson Jessop,”you are eighteen;” after which Lee Ann Nelson
    Jessop advised that she is eighteen with a date of birth of March 24,1990; that Lee Ann Nelson Jessop advised Tina Martinez that she has a baby that is ten months old, that she is spiritually united with Lee Roy Jessop who is approximately thirty-three years of age; that Lee Ann Nelson Jessop is the fourth wife of Lee Roy Jessop whoi s still married to the other three wives.”

    http://texasflds.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/afft4searcharrestwarrant.pdf

  258. Lee Roy Jessop is none other than Merril Leroy Jessop who is the next FLDS defendant up for trial in Texas.

  259. Do you ever actually read the documents, alin?

    Seriously, do you?

  260. That was not Emack’s wife — it was one of Merril Leroy Jessop’s wives and no, she wasn’t 18. She was barely 17.
    ================================================
    Thanks TexasTwist. It appears Betty gave me some bad information which you corrected. I read that 2nd search warrant and I don’t remember any specific names. Perhaps I’ll read it again.

  261. Al, the gist of what I said was true. The statement happened, it was entered in court, and the girl involved is the wife of one of the indicted. YOU are the one who blamed that statement on CPS and questioned whether or not it was true.

  262. March 24, 1990 would make Lee Ann Jessop 18 at the date of the raid.

  263. I’ve hand fed you the link, alin.

    Whether you read it is up to you.

    Betty had a detail wrong. That is different from creating a whole new scenario from the imagination as you did.

  264. YOU are the one who blamed that statement on CPS and questioned whether or not it was true.
    =====================================================
    Nah! I was pretty sure it was true. I just wasn’t so sure it was true about Michael Emack.

  265. I just read it and thanks TexasTwist.

  266. Why is it important that it’s Michael Emack? You know him personally, Al?

  267. “March 24, 1990 would make Lee Ann Jessop 18 at the date of the raid.”

    Why do you have trouble accepting that the people at YFZ lied, when you have been confronted with that information over and over and over?

  268. no hehe

  269. Yes, a dob of 1990 would make her 18, alin.

    I’ll be right back after I fetch the public court documents that indicate the birth certificate provided by her mother says 1991.

  270. “…it was the prosecutor in Arizona who requested a suppression hearing.”

    You sure about that, al?

    Because I read this differently:

    “The defendant, Warren Jeffs…hereby respectfully renews his request for an evidentiary hearing on his motion to suppress…”

    I don’t recall who finally ended up calling a hearing, but it’s not uncommon for the person filing a motion to not be the person who actually sets the matter for hearing.

    There’s been so much back and forth on the Texas evidence I seem to remember it was pretty much mutual to call for a hearing.

  271. Sorry, I meant affidavit in stead of motion. Alin, you haven’t read a damn thing as far as documented evidence goes, but then I don’t expect you to because then you would have to read the dicatations to make any sense out of any of it, and being Flds you NOT going to read dictations.

    Oh I know you say you aren’t FLDS, but your EDITED (please refrain from personal attacks) – ADMIN – keep proving YOU are.

  272. EDIT – please refrain from personal attacks – ADMIN

  273. I swear the command some of you guys have on these facts are simply astounding.

    Hmmm, old Merrill Leroy Jessop is going to have a hard time explaining that little bit of evidence.

  274. When? Since Warren’s reign began? And you know this how?
    ================================
    Yep, heard some rumors

  275. There’s been so much back and forth on the Texas evidence I seem to remember it was pretty much mutual to call for a hearing.
    ————————————————
    Thanks Ron. Part of the problem is with so much detail coming out over the waves that when you are looking for a document it’s buried under reams of other material.

  276. Yes. That right there might be a good reason to plead.

  277. You can call me Betty
    and Betty if you call me,
    you can call me Al.

    hehe

  278. Hmmm, old Merrill Leroy Jessop is going to have a hard time explaining that little bit of evidence.
    ———————————————–
    Depends upon the age of Lee Ann on the date of the raid. If 18 then 17 is the age of consent in Texas so no crime occurred. If 17 then she conceived when she was 16 and a crime occurred.

  279. You dont have to dig for any document alinusara, they are all right on this website.. flimsy excuse my dear.
    Your problem is you dont READ details, you don’t read anything!

  280. “Yep, heard some rumors”

    Gee, that’s convincing. I guess it’s possible. There’s a sucker born every minute.

  281. My pet theory on Al-in is that Al-in is Al Holm aka Pliggy.

    Obviously could never prove it, but Al-in if FLDS would need to be fairly knowledgeable about things outside of their little world which would fit Pliggy.

  282. You dont have to dig for any document alinusara, they are all right on this website.. flimsy excuse my dear
    ———————————————————-
    Nuh uh! There is some dispute regarding who requested the suppression hearing in Arizona.

  283. LeAnn was born in 1991 and was barely 17 at the time of the removal having turned 17 a week or so before.

    LeAnn’s name isn’t Nielsen either, her biological father is Leroy Jeffs. Her mother was reassigned to Wendell Nielsen after Warren exed his big brother.

    Truthfully, I think that LeAnn is a good candidate for being the caller to the shelter. All the facts come really really close to fitting her situation.

  284. Depends upon the age of Lee Ann on the date of the raid.

    Obviously. If she was 18 then he didn’t tell her to lie. However, if she were anything less than 18 he just told his minor plural wife to lie to law enforcement.

  285. Alinusara,

    Sorry, dude, she was 17 and she had an infant in her arms, I think the child was most of a year old. Do the math, she was most likely 15 when she got pregnant. See, it’s the fact that you don’t remember details like that that makes us think you don’t care at all about the crimes themselves.

  286. LeAnn was born in 1991 and was barely 17 at the time of the removal having turned 17 a week or so before.

    Oops. Looks like ole Merrill Leroy has some explaining to do….

    Oh, just add another bad act for the punishment hearing.

  287. Well, Ron, that makes you, me and Rebeckah with the same theory.

  288. Also makes him not a credible witness.

  289. Depends upon the age of Lee Ann on the date of the raid. If 18 then 17 is the age of consent in Texas so no crime occurred. If 17 then she conceived when she was 16 and a crime occurred.

    **************************************

    LeAnn’s birthday is in March. She married when she was 15 years 4 months and probably got pregnant within days of the marriage ceremony while she was still 15. She had the baby when she was 16 years 2 months.

  290. If any of the girls from YFZ were placing calls to shelters, leading up to the raid, I really hope it doesn’t come out.

    Considering how furious FLDS members are about the raid, but also how unwilling they are to actually blame Warren Jeffs and his accomplices, I can only imagine that the poor girl would be treated as the scapegoat for all their woes.

  291. http://www.mohavecourts.com/highprofile/743%20-%20Motion%20Hearing%20121109.pdf

    This document says that its a Defense Request for Evidentiary Hearing on Motion to Suppress. The Defense is Pic. The case in AZ was filed long before the Texas removal and the removal isn’t germain to the situation in AZ except in Pic’s mind to keep postponing the trial so that Warren won’t have to stand trial in Texas. Warren knows he’s toast in the case involving Merrianne and so he wants to stay out of the Texas courts as long as possible.

  292. Can’t quite imagine anyone ever wanting to willingly join.

  293. I agree ellie, but the circumstances are just so close.

    The FLDS are only mad because it showed what idiots they really are to blindly follow someone leading you down the path to prison.

  294. Twist – you’re right, Maggie was off the ranch and her youngest children were there, probably in the care of Babs or maybe one of her sister wives in the Nielsen household. Who knows where Maggie was. She couldn’t even admit that her husband had been exed and she was finally reassigned (months after all the other Leroy Jeffs wives).

  295. I did the math. If she was 18 at the date of the raid then very possibly a crime occurred. The baby was 10 months old. So subtracting 10 months for the baby then 9 months for the conception date Leann would have been 16 when the baby was conceived. Heh! When I’m wrong I’ll admit it.

  296. Ellie, additionally wouldn’t it be of interest to have eyewitness(s) to Dale Evan Barlow’s whereabouts on or around early April, 2008. If he was in fact outside of the Arizona borders without knowledge of his probation officer and seen elsewhere. Pictures of Dale Evans Barlow taken around that time would be clear evidence, especially e-mailed with dates and times. It would make great evidence about his guilt/innocence in this investigation.

  297. Page 33 — #26609798

    http://www.childbrides.org/YFZ_OriginalPetitionForProtectionOfChildren_4-6-2008.pdf

    and

    Page 11

    http://iperceive.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/2902-330-children-order-for-severance-7-24-08.pdf

  298. Both of the links I provided above give a dob in 1991.

    There is a video out there wherein her mother says she presented birth certificates immediately for her minor children, so I think it is a safe assumption that the dob given on the original petition came from a birth certificate.

    Making the year of birth 1991 and not 1990.

  299. I suppose if you want to get technical it was actually the Court that ended up setting the hearing.

    So, you’re both wrong. Nah!!!

  300. Both of the links I provided above give a dob in 1991.

    I tell ya, don’t argue with Twist about the facts. She has them down.

  301. i believe LeeAnn can also be found on the Bishop’s list as being in Wendell Nielsen’s household since it was taken in 2007 before her marriage.

  302. Damn Al,, you can read!!! but only when its convienent to you!
    Now read this!

    In the NG magazine article recently,, An FLDS woman Who was in the 1953 raid and her children were taken for quite awhile, admitted to the reporter,, She agreed NO longer to practice Polygamy, but she did it with her fingers crossed behind her back.
    Im assuming you as I would call that LYING on her part? And they have been LYING ever since

  303. I concur. Both documents state she was born in 2001

  304. In the NG magazine article recently,, An FLDS woman Who was in the 1953 raid and her children were taken for quite awhile, admitted to the reporter,, She agreed NO longer to practice Polygamy, but she did it with her fingers crossed behind her back.
    ====================================================
    I would have done the same. A promise made under duress I have no problem breaking. Wasn’t that Vera Black?

  305. A promise made under duress I have no problem breaking.
    ———
    She’s talking about lying under oath. If you’d do the same, that means your oath is worthless.

  306. She was born in 1991 Al, not 2001. If she was born in 2001 and had a child Leroy would be in worse trouble than he already is.

    and yes, it was Vera Black who lied to LE.

  307. it is also called perjury.

  308. LeAnn isn’t listed with Wendell’s family, his 2007 bishop’s list was taken on August 9, 2007, about 2 weeks after her marriage.

  309. it is also called perjury.
    =========================================
    Not really. It’s called changing your mind.

  310. She was born in 1991 Al, not 2001.
    =======================================
    Hehe! Pretty good typo.

  311. She’s talking about lying under oath. If you’d do the same, that means your oath is worthless.
    ============================================
    My oath freely given is pretty solid.

  312. Not really. It’s called changing your mind.
    ———-
    Yeah I still hope that law enforcement “changes its mind” about sending back the YFZ kids.

  313. Not really. It’s called changing your mind.
    ************************

    It’s not changing your mind if you never intended to do it in the first place and were only telling whatever you thought they wanted to hear.

  314. sorry Al, but as far as i’m concerned from what you’ve posted on various boards, your oath isn’t worth squat

  315. Alin, are you kidding me? If I had to scratch shit with the chickens to get my kids back and keep them and gave my word,, thats exactly what I would do!!

  316. FLDS OATH = Squat

    Who knew?

  317. deppidy dawg, I can this incredible visual of you scratching shit with the chickens.

    *shakes head and resolves to get some work done*

  318. He knows who Vera Black is and thinks it’s OK to lie about polygamy in order to get paroled.

    I’m just saying…..

    I’m with proud texan on this one.

  319. correction…in order to get your kids back.

  320. Al

    “2010/01/25 at 2:29pm
    She’s talking about lying under oath. If you’d do the same, that means your oath is worthless.
    ============================================
    My oath freely given is pretty solid.”

    —————-

    So, is it when you swear on a Bible when you have the problem?

  321. So, is it when you swear on a Bible when you have the problem?
    =============================
    you mean book of mormon…..

  322. Courts dont use a book of Mormon. I wonder why?

  323. My apologys for the wording of my post… I have problem’s with people who don’t keep their word, once it’s given.
    I was raised to be honest, and if you give your word, you keep it.
    It just digusts me that FLDS flippantly lie and cheat.

  324. dawg, no apologies required. I ENJOYED it. Heh.

  325. yes, vera black lied through her teeth, and went right back and continuied practicing polygamy. Then she recently ask for an apology from utah,, the woman is frigging nutcase!

  326. I dunno, Mark Shurtleff is liable to give her one.

  327. FLDS101 – is it too early to get a preview of LeRoy Jessop?

  328. RIH – TT has always been the go to source for data – I remember early on in on the boards always waiting for TT to show up with the real stuff – not the speculation.
    hhg

  329. Al’s answer to the issue of an oath is telling –
    If I define it as duress anything lie i tell is ok regardless of the fact that it is under oath
    I am beginning to believe RIH theory that Al is FLDS

  330. Al is repenting from afar kinda sorta

  331. I’m not infallible when it comes to the data and facts.

    That’s why I rely upon PT to keep me straight!

  332. what was the girls name that had the baby, that failed to produce it to the court, Ive forgotten?

  333. I just wish he didn’t have to be so anear me to hear what his/her views are. I wonder if he was blinded by the sight or always was impaired from good eyesight. Certainly doesn’t recognize the truth when he/she sees it.

    DeputyDawg that would be Teresa Steed.

  334. “Under duress” would be with a gun to your head or your family’s head. However making a promise you never intended to keep (as evidenced by the “I had my fingers crossed.”) just to be able to go on doing what you know is illegal is only considered “honorable” within cult circles. In the rest of society it is considered lying and tends to indicate your given word is worthless. That you would use such lame justifications to excuse such behavior, Al, tends to lead one with the inescapable conclusion that your word is not valuable. Certainly the whole Vera saga (and others like it) are why no one believes anyone within the FLDS saying that they’re going to obey the law in regards to underage marriage or to believe them when they tell whoppers like “there’s no force involved”.

  335. I wonder if ProudTexan and TexasTwist can moonlight as researchers for the prosecution. You’re both very good at keeping names and dates straight (no easy task with this group and their 12 main names) and I appreciate both of your hard work enormously.

  336. Actually, Rebeckah the legal term ‘fraud’ defines very nicely in the context of Vera Black’s actions, stating something with no intention to perform it. Total frauds stand together as one when confronted with the truth, that’s why proclaiming uncharged FLDS congregants as being ‘good people’ would be a misplaced evaluation, for example they make lousy witnesses, great tithers(or, else), poor chaperones and obedient ‘Keep Sweeters’. Qualities that you look for in a cohort or an accomplice but not in a model citizen.

  337. http://dayofpraise.blogspot.com/2008/05/flds-convert-finding-peace-and-love.html

    Here is a “convert”.

  338. Anon

    Great find – though her testimony is not believable. Everyone knows Warren brought massive angst to them all, her keep sweet story is just so much sugar in denial.

    BTW, Rulon Feffs was a convert to, from mainstream LDS, I think this is common knowledge.

    He brought skills, and probably money. I dont think they are picking up 20 something boys for converts.

  339. Anon, the author of that blog says that she has been in the FLDS for 60+ years and was involved in the 1952 raid! Hardly complies with the post Warren conversion question. The FLDS was much more open to converts decades ago and that has been very much discouraged since the Jeffs took over.

  340. Yeah, Warrens special skill was the excommunication factor.

  341. Drat. 1953 raid. My brain is focused on my artwork today and I can’t seem to get any of my facts just right. I really wish we had an edit button.

  342. Which brings up a point, Warren may be a convert himself, I dont know the date of Rulons joining but it may well be that Warren wasnt born into it but rather LDS.

  343. Oh, Rulon was married and when he went plyg Zola left him. This was prior to 1944 so Jeffs was indeed born into the group, but BEFORE it was known as FLDS.

  344. I wonder who that woman is married to.

  345. Anon @ 5:26 actually that “convert” article is originally from the “truthwillFAIL” site take it with the grain of salt it deserves:

    http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=38

  346. So it seems the last “converts” to the FLDS cult was 60 some years ago, speaks volumes doesn’t it.

  347. Wasn’t Elissa Wall’s Father one?

  348. Dorothy Emma is one of Dan Calvin Jessop’s wives.

    She might feel differently if her husband were excommunicated under Warren’s axe.

  349. Yes, Elissa Wall’s father was not born into plural marriage.

  350. Also, from what I have read there was a lot more choice, freedom of clothing, location, job, spouses, etc., earlier on and that the cult like control increased considerably when Warren was in control both before and after Rulon passed.

  351. Which brings me to the idea that is in the two most recently posted documents; that Jeffs was deliberately creating a confrontation with the law as a test of the faithfulness of the people. This is very much a Jim Jones kind of idea. Let’s deliberately break the law to show that 1) the FLDS are a united team and 2) WSJ is completely in control. Quite bizarre and semi suicidal. I suspect that if this had gone down differently, there would have been real violence. Control tactics seem to escalate in other groups and they certainly were escalating with Jeffs.

    But generally, I have to wonder…what was he thinking? What goes wrong in someone’s mind that they want to actually destroy what they have in order to test their control over it? His revelations could have been fairly harmless, all peaceful and fluffy and light, but that would not have increased his comfort level with the faithfulness of his followers. I suspect all of this is an outgrowth of his guilt over taking over as prophet in spite of his father having named someone else as next in line and his older brother as executor. He constantly needed to know that everyone was buying into his strategy, and continued to do so. The way he often speaks of his father as if he were still alive and was speaking through Warren or speaking of his father and God as if they were interchangeable is down right bizarre.

  352. Control freak issue relates to moving to younger and younger girls – easier to imprint your will on them

  353. OK, funniest post yet from mudpucky:

    http://www.flds.ws

    THERE IS A POSSIBILITY RAYMOND JESSOP HAS BAILED OUT ON APPEAL.
    January 25, 2010 – 6:59 pm

    I have not confirmed this with the Ranch as yet, but it is legally possible. Traditionally, bail on Appeal will be granted if a real court believes there is reasonable expectation of the conviction being over turned on formal Appeal, and if there is minimal risk that the defendant will flee.

  354. Warren didn’t feel guilty. About anything.

    In his mind He was the Prophet. Some people had their doubts but they went along with it because he said so.

    Warren learned from his father and his father before him.jmo

    The history goes back a long way.

    Where do old perverts come from?
    From young perverts growing old.

    Rulon taught Warren all he knew.jmo

  355. Betty, There was that incident at Short Creek when so many teens were found out to have been partying in the desert. Warren brought on his more select ‘Templebuilder’ program and needing to qualify to come to the ‘Lands of Refuge’. Was Warrant loosing control of the youth at the Creek, after the Barlow purge he was awash in ‘apostates’, too many and too near to him. It was about 50+/- teens that were involved but the boys were of the Aaron priesthood rank and he had to act quickly and decisively. ‘Lands of Refuges’ are secure cloisters away from ‘apostates’, exFLDS family members and a screened group of more fervent fanatics. Much stronger community to control and follow the prophets whims.

  356. Betty check out the 6 hour meeting in the LDS history. President Taylor had a vision and had a visit. People outside the room heard him talking for hours.
    It is imo a fascinating story.

    LadieSadie if that is true not a one will see the inside of a prison.

    If that were true it wouldn’t be the fault of Texas.
    Something bigger than Texas.

    Bill has been known to be wrong about a lot of things.
    I think the only way I’ll believe these guys are in prison at this point is if Doran or Engles were to say Walton these guys are in prison and we’ll make sure they stay there.

  357. “…it is legally possible.”

    Um…no, not really.

    Texas Code of Criminal Procedure

    Art. 44.04. BOND PENDING APPEAL. (a) Pending the determination of any motion for new trial or the appeal from any misdemeanor conviction, the defendant is entitled to be released on reasonable bail.

    (b) The defendant may not be released on bail pending the appeal from any felony conviction where the punishment equals or exceeds 10 years confinement or where the defendant has been convicted of an offense listed under Section 3g(a)(1), Article 42.12, but shall immediately be placed in custody and the bail discharged.

    http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/CR/htm/CR.44.htm

    “equals or exceeds 10 years confinement”

    Last I knew, 10 equals 10.

  358. “So it seems the last “converts” to the FLDS cult was 60 some years ago, speaks volumes doesn’t it.”

    She did not sound like a convert to me. She sounded like someone who was a child when parents converted and was raised in the cult. She was quite fortunate that Warren wasn’t in charge during her youth — I wonder how her children and grandchildren are faring under his rule?

  359. If the 3rd COA should reverse his conviction, then and only then could he be freed on an appeal bond (regardless of length of sentence) pending a final determination by the Court of Criminal Appeals on a petition for review from the state.

  360. “I have not confirmed this with the Ranch as yet, but it is legally possible.”

    What is that?

    Slow news Monday?

    I swear my head is going to explode before this day is over.

  361. While technically it could be argued she didnt make an adult choice to join, its quite probable there were some such as Rulon that did.

    None I’ve heard of the past 10 years, but I think it ws William Orson Black who joined, and then fled to Mexico over a child bride pending arrest.

    He is still in hiding in Mexico with his harem last I heard..

    Sheriff of Washington County, Kirk Smith, allowed him to escape.

    DUH

  362. Confirm what with the ranch?

    That it is “legally possible”?

    (Which it isn’t.)

    Yeah, the first place I would turn to seeking knowledge on Texas law is the ranch.

  363. With the history of polygamists fleeing to Mexico to avoid prosecution, why would anyone let any of them out on bail? I’m amazed that no one has made a run for it already. Anything to get to own a brace of girl children and get away with it.

  364. Probabley they would want female converts, no? lol

  365. “Probabley they would want female converts, no? lol”

    Not necessarily, Anonymous 7:48. After all, girls outside of cults are rarely taught the all important need for absolute obedience to all things male. It might be risky, taking a female convert and having her “contaminate” the other girls with Gentile thinking.

  366. Stamp,

    I thought William Orson Black was homegrown FLDS?

    Orson William Black of the FLDS is a son of Leonard Black and Vera Johnson — Vera Black as discussed above.

    I’ve assumed William Orson Black belongs somewhere to that family.

  367. According to Dr Janet Bennion, a polygamy researcher who has lived with the LeBaron and AUB groups, divorced mainstream Mormon women sometimes are attracted to join/convert to the AUB group for 2 main reasons :
    1) to access “priesthood services” to guarantee their salvation
    2) to be married, because divorced women in mainstream Mormonism has little marriage potential.
    Consider reading her book, Desert Patriarchy, on the subject.

  368. Linda Lamb,
    Why don’t you take off your blinders and see this organized crime syndicate for what they really are?

    You don’t have to sacrifice your piousness to do that. Honest, you don’t. You can still be a good Christian.

  369. anonymous 8:12 :
    Linda Lamb is not a Christian. She is a fundamentalist Mormon internet troll

  370. I have a question that one of you may be able to answer; since the purges by Warren Jeffs of ‘priesthood’ men have the number of marriages of those deemed worthy increased? For example if they once had an average of 3 wives 20 yrs ago do they now have a greater # of wives? Additionally hoe many wives do the chosen men @ the YFZ have on average? Sorry to be a nosy busy body and if someone has answered this before sorry I’m new to these parts;-)

  371. it would be nice if raymond’s attorney’s got their appeal filed before mudpuppy had him out on bail.

  372. CW, you seem awfully sure of that. Want to share?

  373. Twist,

    That sounds reasonable, here is a good write up.

    I’d really like to get the tale and inside scoop from FLDS101!

    ====================

    “Case Story

    “Prophet” Leaves A Trail Of Broken Lives

    If you ask his followers, Orson William Black is the one true prophet and the leader of a large polygamist community that is similar to those made infamous by Warren Jeffs.

    But according to the Arizona Attorney General’s Office, Orson Black is just a common criminal. Authorities say that Black began proselytizing soon after self-made claims that he had a revelation to practice polygamy.

    Furthermore, he considers himself an archangel that communicates directly with God.

    Soon after this “epiphany,” Black split from the Colorado City FLDS community and took his new followers with him. Cops say Black would wed time and time again. He was married to his second wife, Tammy, at the age of 17 by Warren Jeffs’ father, Rulon. According to authorities, Black not only abused Tammy but tried to marry Tammy’s younger siblings who were just 12 years old. His fourth wife, Rose Stubbs Barlow, would also have to watch as Black became involved with her sisters, Beth and Roberta, who were both under the age of 15.

    Birth records show that Black impregnated these girls when they were as young as 15 years old. Authorities say that as a result of Black’s abuse, Roberta is very troubled and has a hard time communicating. Arizona’s Child Protective Services was contacted and Black was called in front of a grand jury in 2002. Black’s defense? He claimed that he artificially inseminated the girls with a syringe.

    At the hearing, his second wife, Tammy, said that he beat her with a belt and would often drug her. Authorities later came to believe that Black drugs many of his wives to keep them submissive.”

    ======================== Mug shot included =============

    http://www.sex-offenders.info/detail.php?id=38832

  374. Gosh, you mean, maybe Vera Black’s children were raised in a system that trained them to be abusive, and she was ineffective to stop it? Like, maybe, the authorities were right to remove her children???? Sounds like it to me.

  375. pathgirl,

    It does appear that the number of wives for the most worthy has certainly increased.

    Warren Jeffs himself has more wives than anyone prior in modern times. His father Rulon didn’t have as many as Warren.

    I don’t feel that my database is complete enough to give a very good average per man. I’m still in a process of inputing and consolidating information so I haven’t tried to run any of the numbers.

    I can say anecdotally that the number of marriages for the women has certainly increased. Husbands getting kicked out (and often for real misbehavior, not just that from a WSJ “vision”) has always taken place, but nowhere near the social engineering Warren is tinkering with.

    Eventually I’ll get my data to a point that I can look at the numbers. I think comparisons of Warren’s World to the past could be an interesting way to view what Warren hath wrought.

  376. Betty,

    I think the Orson William Black who is the fugitive is probably Vera’s grandson. He was born in 1961 and Vera had a son named Orson William Black who was born prior to the 1953 raid.

    Still, he didn’t become who and what he is in a vacuum.

    The fugitive Orson William Black is said to believe he is his own prophet and hears revelations from God directing him to do what he does.

    Sorta like being a god in his own private Idaho.

    I don’t think he wrote the original script.

  377. If I seem somewhat cranky today it is because I have been reading Warren’s dictations.

    Crazy crazy stuff.

    Sickening and sad.

  378. Nope, TT, I agree. It’s been done.

  379. You haven’t hurt my feelings. You sound sort of factual-stripped of emotions and that does sometimes upset touchy feely types. It has apparently been my day to get everything slightly wrong, so it’s probably good that the day is pretty much over.

  380. Fortunately, I got a lot done in my ‘real’ life.

  381. Betty,
    Linda Lamb has no knowledge whatsoever of basic Baptist theology or the New Testament.
    Therefore, she is a pseudo – Baptist Mormon fundamentalist internet troll.

  382. Well everyone wants to be ‘the one mighty and strong’.

  383. “I’d really like to get the tale and inside scoop from FLDS101.”

    That would be very good, yes indeedy.

  384. OK, you may well be right, CW. She sure pushes my buttons, I know that.

  385. Twist

    I was reading the various dictations of the “Lord and Master” Phools McGee today, wow, that guy got lost on Mr Toads Wild Ride.

    What an energy suck that guy is!

  386. Pathgirl

    But Orson Black is extra special. He is the “One Mighty and Strong and Mexican”……

  387. There are 2 Orson William Blacks in recent FLDS history.

    There is Orson William Black, SR and there is Junior who goes by the name of Will. Will ran a meth lab in Hildale. He ran his business under the name of Golden Circle Enterprises (If I recall correctly) and told his workers that he was extracting gold from simple metals instead of cooking meth.

    This meth lab exploded about 6 years ago and the location has now been cleaned up and converted into car wash bays. It is just off the highway south of Utah Avenue (the road that leads to the old Jeffs compound) and across the highway from the “Border Store” that one of Warren’s brother’s owned (the brother accused of molesting Brent Jeffs along with Warren and another brother).

    Today, the Border Store is owned by a member of Centennial Park (maybe Don Timpson) and it houses the Merry Wives Cafe.

    Will married 2 of the Stubbs girls, Beth and Roberta, who are younger sisters of Penny Peterson. One girl was 14 and the other was 15. They both became pregnant and this was the first time the “turkey baster” impregnation theory was used.

    Arizona had 5 or 6 felony child sexual assault charges brought against Will. He was surrounded late one night in the Gap area in Utah. The Washington County Sheriff was involved in the standoff as was the County Attorney at that time, Eric Ludlow. Eric Ludlow is now a judge with Washington County’s 5th District Court.

    Sheriff Smith and County Attorney Ludlow were told by Will Black’s attorney that Will would turn himself in to authorities the next morning and everyone should just go home that night and deal with the ordeal in the morning.

    The next morning, Will and Roberta and Beth were long gone – probably to Mexico. Tammy Phelp’s children had just been left at the house overnight when the felon fled.

    There are still outstanding felony warrants for Orson William (Will) Black, Jr. He as supposedly been spotted in the Casas Grandes area in old Mexico.

    It is rumored that he tried to connect with the LeBarons in Colonia LeBaron, but they wanted nothing to do with him.

    How and why did this Arizona felon escape from the clutches of Washington County Sheriff Kirk Smith and County Attorney Eric Ludlow (now judge).

    Were they just so trustful, or just so damn stupid?

    Regardless, it kind of gives one an impression of how and why this stuff continues to go on in southern Utah.

    Because the bad guys keep getting away while the top dogs in law enforcement look the other way, burp, or go watch a BYU football game.

  388. sounds to me like the sheriff and county attorney at the time need to have charges brought against them for not doing their job, but then of course the attorney lied through his teeth. was it rod parker by chance?

  389. #

    You know, Emack sure was smiling a lot in his perp walk video.

    ProudTexan said this on January 24, 2010 at 6:39 PM

    He’s just keeping sweet PT

  390. i think he might have been getting ready to sing a sweet song anon.

  391. It’s possible he has a plea bargain, Anonymous 11:06 and ProudTexan, but it’s also possible it’s his reaction to stress. I smile when I’m nervous a lot. It gives people the wrong impression, but it isn’t a response I have control over.

  392. By “plea bargain” I meant some sort of deal where he gets even more reduced time for testifying or something. My brain is kind of fuzzy now so I think I’ll go check my eyelids for holes for a few hours. :blush:

  393. The fugitive Orson William Black is said to believe he is his own prophet and hears revelations from God directing him to do what he does.

    Sorta like being a god in his own private Idaho.

    I don’t think he wrote the original script.

    ………………………….

    Good God, all these thugs sound the same, don’t they. “God told me to do it.”

    The Mormons have more splinters than a broken baseball bat. Joseph Smith wasn’t thinking ahead when he said anyone (well, not women of course) could receive revelations straight from God.

    Next thing you know, every Tom, Dick and Harry is having a revelation and breaking off to start his own little sect – which of course is the ONLY one practising the true Mormon religion.

    They even kill each other over who gets to have the power.

  394. For instance, the girl who asked her “husband” how old she was and he said “You’re 18″ – that was the “wife” of M Emack. She wasn’t 18.
    ==============================================================
    That’s some amazing stuff if true. CPS cannot by law release notes taken during an interview and there was no trial of Michael Emack so that shouldn’t be public knowledge.

    Alinusara10 said this on January 25, 2010 at 12:32 PM

    Al is right here, it was allegedly Merril Leroy Jessop who said this in front of the CPS worker instead of Mike Emack.

    But, none the less, it was an FLDS man at the YFZ ranch who tried to pass his underage child bride off as an adult woman. (The child bride who had been sexually assaulted by this righteous man who answered for this little girl – who had his baby when she was still an underage girl – and lied to CPS about her age, for it was HE who said “You’re 18″ in front of the CPS agent when this underage girl looked up into his face seeking the correct answer)

    Hey Al, you can attend the upcoming trial of Leroy Jessop starting on March 8th and hear this in court live and in person. Unless Leroy cops a plea like Mike Emack just did on Friday.

    Better book your ticket now before the prices go up cause it will be college spring break time. and air travel increases.

  395. That’s the problem you tard. CPS notes cannot by law be released to the public.

    Alinusara10 said this on January 25, 2010 at 12:38 PM

    Alin made a funny.

    You tard instead of Utard

  396. YOU are the one who blamed that statement on CPS and questioned whether or not it was true.
    =====================================================
    Nah! I was pretty sure it was true. I just wasn’t so sure it was true about Michael Emack.

    Alinusara10 said this on January 25, 2010 at 1:04 PM

    I just read it and thanks TexasTwist.

    Alinusara10 said this on January 25, 2010 at 1:05 PM

    You read that in 1 minute? because your reply claiming to have read it was posted ONLY ONE MINUTE later. WTF?

  397. spring break in angelo isn’t until the 2nd week of the leroy trial.

  398. Anon

    Thanks for the rundown on Will Black. Betcha his is still cooking meth. Dont think the restrictions on precursors are as bad down there – they say thats where most of the meth comes from nowdays – Mexico.

    I like the part where the meth lab was by Warrens home. Maybe thats why he is so loopy!

  399. i like that the building is now a cafe called the merry wives.

  400. From Bills site:

    “THERE IS A POSSIBILITY RAYMOND JESSOP HAS BAILED OUT ON APPEAL.

    I have not confirmed this with the Ranch as yet, but it is legally possible.”

    ==================

    Yeah and its possible Bill is pregnant, too.

  401. I’ve read good reviews on the Merry Wives Cafe and it should be a definite on our caravan tour, PT.

    Of course the Polygamy Tour of Short Creek is a must.

    Better get to working on our tans so we can be appropriately scantily clad.

    We can tan our way over there if we need to.

    Maybe Naomie and Warren can recommend to us the better salons along the way.

  402. Twist hon there is NO WAY I’m going to be scantily clad anywhere other than my bed & bathroom. Just ain’t gunna happen. Sometimes I even wear Cuddlduds undies until Spring, under my Stuff.

  403. Me and you both, Huesos.

    ‘Sides, duane sez it is the near nekkid apostates who are terrorizing Short Creek so we’d best leave that mission for them.

  404. Ah yes, duane deci and his scantily clad, rock throwing apostates who throw rocks at the flds failthful. About as good as bill m eating pastries at a non-existent bakery. ROFL!! When you take your tour of short creek, please get some pictures of the near naked rock throwers.

  405. Maybe Hugh should go to Colorado City and warm up the crowd.

    From FFF:

    “ransom” had him pegged perfectly…….. (Hugh) was like a guy who hangs out in front of an elementary school wearing nothing but a trench coat…

    waiting for his chance to flash somebody, unsuspecting, and shock them with his vulgarity and filthiness………

    he was an exhibitionist who got crude pleasure out of being repulsive, and knowing that people were grossed out by him…

    http://www.fundamentalforums.com/the-fighting-forum/40721-hugh-was-banned-4.html

  406. Yeah and its possible Bill is pregnant, too.

    ******************************

    stamp, please issue a warning with these kind of posts.

  407. it left off part of the above post that said i was having to clean diet coke off my computer.

  408. Checked the 3rd Court of Appeals site – only case with last name Jessop is a YFZ case from 2008.

  409. PT,

    Sorry, just look for the little green RICO sign and beware….

  410. Now Stamp – maybe you should take to heart this comment on the Fighting Fundamentalists:

    Obviously you and I are simply too unsophisticated to appreciate the entertainment value of such a filthy perverted megalomaniac…..Had we been a bit more cerebral, we could have been his friends.

  411. From Bills site:

    “THERE IS A POSSIBILITY RAYMOND JESSOP HAS BAILED OUT ON APPEAL.
    ———————————————————-
    Pretty huge Bombshell. Bill should have waited for verification.

  412. ron,

    i wonder if thats the poaching incident? Or was that earlier.

  413. no stamp, its the mothers from the ranch appealing the removal of the children.

  414. Stamp

    I’m not sure. I think it was page 4 of the link you posted.

    Hey – if nothing else, Hugh is consistent.

  415. Al

    What? Bill break news? HA HA I could make a funny

  416. has there even been a notice of appeal filed with the trial court and a request of the record? all that has to come before you can even think about filing, then it takes time to read over all the stuff and file a brief.

    hey twist, do you have time to call schleicher county and see if the notice of appeal and request for trial record has been filed.

  417. Stamp

    Zoom – talking about two things got me confused…

    proudtexan is right, the 3rd COA case is the mother’s appeal of the removal.

  418. Hey Twist

    While you’re at it, if anyone knows Walther’s court reporter a copy of the transcript would be a major coup.

  419. While we’re on transcripts, I’ll bet the one on the evidence suppression hearing has already been done. I suspect that will be most of their appeal.

  420. Done, PT.

    Nada.

    Since his motion for a new trial was filed on a timely basis, they have 90 days from his sentencing to file an appeal.

  421. I suspect you are right, Ron.

  422. i’ve talked to her several times ron, but it costs major $$$ to get that. are you buying?

  423. Mudpucky doesn’t break news, unless that’s someone’s new code word for “wind”.

  424. according to the motion for new trial, its the suppression hearing, the grand jury make up and the way documents were authenticated.

  425. 90 days from sentencing is feb 9.

  426. Proudtexan

    Once they’ve done the work (and gotten paid a hefty sum) to make the first copy it’s really no skin off their backs to email a copy. It’s not like its some copyrighted work.

    They’re simply trying to make a buck, but I negotiate with court reporters all the time.

  427. so its the transcript on the suppression hearing that you want? i can call her and see.

  428. Excellent post by Blues, highly recommended reading. For Bill too, so he can catch up with the class.

  429. Maybe when he “checked with the Ranch” they told him to log on to Coram Non Judice to get correct information.

  430. I think when he calls the ranch whoever answers says “Tan lamentable usted tienen el número incorrecto” and then hangs up.

  431. does that mean you have the wrong number in spanish?

  432. I hope so.

  433. Translation:

    So lamentable you have the incorrect number

  434. Le dijimos antes, deje de llamar aqui!

    Idiota.

  435. Hang on I think Stamp declared this board “English only.”

    Stop pandering to those immigrants.

  436. “Vous avez l’incorrecte numero” en francais

  437. i can read that one cat.

    i had to ask a student for a translation of the spanish one.

  438. Proud Texan,
    Est-ce que vous parlez francais?
    Depuis quelque temps ?

  439. I took French in College for 2 semesters and can read it more than speak it. Although I do know a lullaby in French.

  440. Quelle chanson (lullaby)?

  441. Don’t make me have to give you a sound thrashing with my freedom fries.

  442. i don’t remember the name, only some of the words and the tune.

  443. Proud Texan,

    Je vais parler encore avec vous en “email”
    Traduction : I will communicate further with you on email

    a cause de Ron – a – Houston, qui se met en colere avec nous maintenant. Excusons nous, Ron.
    Traduction continue: because Ron in Houston is getting upset with us now.
    Excuse us, Ron.

  444. Que Pasa, Ronaldo?

  445. I’m an equal opportunity Rapper

  446. ron will get over it, he wants me to get something for him from the court reporter.

  447. Ha ha

    Ya gotta see the new thread! Home page, right under this one.

    http://texasflds.wordpress.com/2010/01/26/raymond-jessop-out-on-bail-not/

  448. has there been word of Naomi ever being charged with anything?

  449. Where is Naomi?

  450. isnt it against the law to harbor a fugitive and she was traveling with him, so how come she has not been arrested? never see anything about her.

  451. Yes, whatever happened to Naomi. I wonder if she’s gone back to wearing the prairie dress with long johns underneath, instead of the jeans and bright pink short-sleeved summer shirt she was wearing when arrested.

  452. Somebody wrote that what was found in the Jeffs writings sounded like she might be as dangerous as he is – so looks like she would be in big troube too.

  453. Maybe Berry Knoll could write a little something about her . . . ?

  454. Buffalo’s 100-year-old pedophile was just sent back to jail for violating his parole agreement:

    http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/935203.html

    A sixty-year history of molesting children. What an achievement.

  455. i think naomi travels back and forth between the ranch and the az prison. i doubt her heavenly comfort services are allowed in prison.

  456. Well Greets,

    It comes to mind, I’m glad the FLDS dont live that long.

    Otherwise they would be marrying them all the way.

  457. Anon

    True

    Naomi is not Warrans wife.

    No matter what hocus pocus voodoo they believe in.

  458. was she every pictured in the ranch photos? just cant figure how she is not very much accountable for all those “revelations” and resulting cruel tearing up of families since she was the “scribe”

  459. isnt it against the law to harbor a fugitive and she was traveling with him, so how come she has not been arrested? never see anything about her.

    Another big question mark. All I can say is that sometime crime and punishment comes down to dollars and cents. I know the Feds tend to go for the big stuff often ignoring the smaller crimes.

    There were loads of folks that helped Warren stay on the run. So far only one was charged.

  460. Ronaldo

    So far……….. But just imagine how many open FBI files there are.

    Betcha they had to make a Staples run.

  461. i bet they’ve had to make many staples runs.

    hey ronaldo, no go on getting the transcript for pennies.

  462. Earlier ya’ll were talking about converts to “The Work” as it was called before the FLDS incorporated.

    Wendell Nielsen was a convert. So was his brother John who is now a leader of a different group in the SLC area. After the split forming Centennial Park, John went with them (CP). A later split with CP had him start his own group.

    Wendell and John also had a sister who joined “The Work”. She stayed in the FLDS and died last year. Her name was ? Burke. Can’t remember right now what her first name was. I think she was one of Rulon’s wives, but I could be wrong about that.

  463. Hello Hello Goodbye:
    That is an interesting comment you made over on Brooke’s blog, about the photograph on the National Geographic. I’m responding here since I doubt my response will make it past Brooke’s erratic moderation.

    The arrangement of the photograph is in fact typical of 19th portrait photography, with the man in front, and his estate behind him; his wife and children being considered part of his property, and the visual leads to the rest of the vast estate, which is “his”.

    And I agree with your interpretation. The point of populating the earth is so the man can become a God and have his own planet. From the fundamentalist standpoint, it’s all about him, not his children.

  464. Come here Roman Grant, step off the Big Love set.

  465. hey ronaldo, no go on getting the transcript for pennies.

    Awe crapper. Well, I guess it never hurts to ask. The irony is that what the court reporters would charge you is ultimately less than the $1 per page charged by most Courts of Appeals once it’s filed. I was hoping maybe somebody was a buddy of the court reporter who could get a courtesy copy.

    I admit it. I’m often a cheap bastard.

  466. From the fundamentalist standpoint, it’s all about him, not his children.

    Hold on – wait – you mean it’s not all about me?

  467. Yes Ron, it’s all about you. But you need to get another wife, more kids, and some land. And if you can’t get the land, sit in front of a painted backdrop…

  468. I have a bumper sticker on my refrigeration says “It’s all about me”

  469. ron, if you need to pick up a couple of wives cheap, they are having a fire sale on them at the ranch. i keep telling my boss that when he says he needs a new wife.

  470. i just realized my name wasn’t posting. the no go post was from me and i’ll talk to her sister and see if she can get us a cut rate price, but from the way she was talking, she hasn’t even done it yet. i’m also working on getting trial exhibits from the first 2 trials. since emack copped a plea, i guess exhibits are out of the question on him, huh.

  471. Wendell’s sister was Norene Birk.

    She married Rulon late in her life as her priesthood husband.

  472. yeah she had a son named something birk jeffs. i guess the jeffs was added later in life.

  473. since emack copped a plea, i guess exhibits are out of the question on him, huh.

    There should be some exhibits. Either they are attached to his stipulation of evidence or the court reporter has them.

  474. anon 6:15,

    No, Naomie was never present that I ever saw during any of the photo ops at the ranch.

    She kept a very low profile during all of that drama.

    Probably because it would be too easy for even the laziest journalists to snag a copy of her arrest photo. The FLDS didn’t want people reminded about Warren’s Wild Ride.

    Naomie’s jeans, pink top and tan didn’t exactly portray the etheral image they wanted to project.

  475. I think her son is Clayton Birk Jeffs.

  476. I have a bumper sticker on my refrigeration says “It’s all about me”

    Yeah, well, that’s human nature. The problem is catching ourselves when we’re engaged in that thinking.

  477. Tis true about Naomie, she wasn’t playing the part of the shrinking violet in a prairie dress and poofy hair during their trek around the states, kicking whatever in their wake.

    And you are right, Clayton is the name I remember.

  478. Article about Norene Nielsen Birk Jeffs:

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy672.html

  479. Posted at Texas Polygamy blog by one of Noreen’s non-FLDS children after her death:

    Norene was born in Hyrm Utah May 28 1928. She was 79. She had six children, five with her first husband Lynn. Clayton with Bill. She has about 21 grandchildren. and 25 almost 27 greatgrandchildren not coulnting Clayton’s. She was a regisered nurse, a homemaker, she wrote many poems, plays andstories. She had a great appriciation for beautiful music. Her greatest love was for little children. She worked with your little handicapped ones for many years. She was full of energy and love for all those around her and they loved her back. She was a great photographer and loved to travel and see the beautites of nature. Those of us who loved her will miss her more than you can imagine. Love you Mom

    http://texaspolygamy.blogspot.com/2007/06/noreen-nielsen-birk-jeffs-funeral.html

    Going by the last name of one of her sons named in Brooke Adams’ article, her first husband may have been a Lauritzen.

  480. Wendell Nielsen was a convert. So was his brother John who is now a leader of a different group in the SLC area. After the split forming Centennial Park, John went with them (CP). A later split with CP had him start his own group.

    Wendell and John also had a sister who joined “The Work”. She stayed in the FLDS and died last year. Her name was ? Burke. Can’t remember right now what her first name was. I think she was one of Rulon’s wives, but I could be wrong about that.

    Anonymous said this on January 26, 2010 at 7:27 PM

    Not John, Ivan. John Nielsen is Wendells oldest child, kicked out by Warren 4-5 yrs ago, and was one of the court appointed trustees of the UEP

  481. I take it Wendell’s father, Ezra Elroy Nielsen, was also a convert?

    He had three wives that I know of — Lily Arvilla Harris (Wendell’s mother), Nituma Barlow and Lucianna Barlow.

    It appears that he married the Barlow wives in the 1970s.

  482. Ivan, and sister Sylvia converted, then Wendell. It was years later that their dad joined the group,

  483. Thank you ALL for your time and research to post the factual truths of this family connection I was trying to make, but was having difficulty doing so.

    Of course it was Ivan Nielsen instead of John Nielsen. And I had the sister’s name spelled phonetically incorrect as Burke instead of Birk.

    Bless you all for realizing what I was trying to say and for connecting my dots for me. And for clarifying my goof ups with the real truth.

    I really appreciate your combined efforts to set the record straight where I was not able to do it.

    Its no fun when your mind has brain farts and your fingers are crippled.

  484. Anon 12:05,

    From what I remember of my Russian, Ivan is translatable to John.

    Appreciate you reminding us of Norene and Wendell’s conversion.

    That’s how it works. One of us thinks of something and we all build upon that information.

    Anyone know how Cal Nielsen is related to Wendell? Information I have says his father was Niels Nielsen. Was Niels a brother to Elroy? I believe he was married to Aunt Ruby Zitting before he was exed?

  485. There is a WONDERFUL memoir out by Susanna Barlow called “What Peace There May Be”. It is available on Amazon, but signed copies are also available from The HOPE Organization.

    HOPE sends all of the net proceeds to Susanna for the autographed copies of her book sold via the hope charity.

    Check it out, I think you will really enjoy Susanns’ memoir

  486. I found “What Peace There May Be” riveting. It’s an amazing story, and Susanna is a very talented writer. She opens the door into her world, a world of endemic abuse that pervades the plural marriage lifestyle. Powerful stuff.

  487. i need to get that book. i just finished brian mackert’s book and it was very well written. i’ve also read carolyn’s, flora’s and elissa’s. brent’s is next up on my list.

  488. I watched the Youtube video promoting “What Peace There May Be.” It does look like a really interesting book.

    I noticed that Ms. Barlow really tries very hard to distance herself from stereotyping. I don’t have too much of a problem with that, but I do wonder if she goes into how the culture fosters an environment where the abuse she suffered can occur.

  489. i’ll let you know after i get it an read it.

  490. Irene Spencer’s book is also a good one.

    PS When you all talk about converts do you mean people kind of “in off the street,” or do you mean mainstream Mormons who believe the LDS went off track.

    I’m from New England – Mormons were kind of invisible where I grew up.

  491. I liked Irene’s book a lot. I also like the book of her sister wife, whose name escapes me at the moment, titled “His Favorite Wife”. They both give different views of how the LeBaron group drifted from religious zealotry to organized murder. I also enjoyed the discussion of how her spiritual journey freed her of the cult aspects in the long run. Both women seemed to have a story of that type; they also honestly admitted fighting with each other while married but seem to have liked each other and have forgiven each other.

  492. As I remember, Calvin is a younger half brother to Wendell, Ivan, etc. his drothers are Elroy, Carvel, all still in as I recall. I could be mistaken about that.
    Susanna Barlow is Ivans daughter, and it is amazing how she still interacts with her family

  493. Wow, sorry about the spelling errors, no coffee yet today :)

  494. Betty,
    Irene Spencer’s sister wife’s book is :
    Favorite Wife: Escape from Polygamy by Susan Ray Schmidt
    I highly recommend it.
    Also go to : Polygamy : What Love is This ? website to see the streaming videos of her interviews with Doris Hanson.

  495. Thanks, CW. That’s the one. I’m trying to get ready to go out to lunch and was too lazy to walk over to the book shelf and find it.

  496. does anyone know if the book that was suppose to be written by Carolyn’s daughter has been released?

  497. Anonymous I wondered about Betty Jessop’s book and don’t believe that a credible publisher of any repute would be interested in it’s publication. Of couse, Betty could always privately publish it from YFZ Raunch Publishers but no major book tour, Press or Public response would happen. Carolyn looks to publish a sequel, probably timed to the movie version of ‘Escaped’ being released.

  498. carolyn’s 2nd book will probably be out in may. i’m not sure about the movie of Escape and when it will be released.

  499. I agree that Susanna Barlow is a very level headed writer. I would also suggest _Daughter of the Saints: Growing Up In Polygamy_ by Dorothy Allred Solomon, who, if I recall correctly, is AUB.

  500. AUB?

  501. Jim, now thats funny right there!

    I’m surprised Willie hasnt published his own book yet too, including his broken record.

  502. The AUB is yet another Mormon Fundamentalist splinter group. That’s the problem with personal revelations — anyone can have them.

  503. AUB — Apostolic United Brethren also known as the Allred Group.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_United_Brethren

  504. Can anyone give me some background on the Church of the Firstborn?

    What I’m looking for is past and/or present LDS doctrine in that regard and not necessarily as it was interpreted by the LeBarons.

  505. I suggest this article by Berry Knoll for a discussion of the splinter groups from the original order or the the work in short creek.

    http://flds101.blogspot.com/2008/05/flds-history-101-splinter-groups.html

  506. Sorry about the repeated the s. Also cjeck the polygamy family tree which is on the blog’s blog roll for infor on the splintering and how the AUB, CP, etc fit in.

  507. Rebeckah: That’s the problem with personal revelations — anyone can have them.

    …………………………

    Well, not women of course, according to Mormonism or any of its multitudes of splinter groups.

  508. Regarding Jim’s comment about Betty Jessop’s book –

    I have to say I agree with his comment 100%. Where’s the “sell” in “my mother took me away so I wouldn’t have to get married and then I went back?”

    Self published? Maybe by HOOT Publishing House. I just don’t see how a major publishing house could justify such a book.

  509. Anyone know the general background of Carolyn’s second book? I assume her fights with Merrill and Betty will play a big part.

    Just let me know when she’ll be in Houston, and I’ll be there.

  510. Ron

    Certainly no sane, reputable publisher would want to back up these child molesters and their assorted lies.

  511. Not to say Betty would never be worthy of a book – but it likely wont happen until she has made her own escape.

  512. I would read Betty’s book if it came out. I’m intensely interested in the reasoning behind her return to the FLDS fold. I just don’t know that there’s enough material in her young life for a book. After, my father is a saint and my mother was an evil witch who kidnapped us and took us from paradise, what else is there to say?

  513. If she knew where Rulon hid the keys in the sand she would really have something.

  514. One possibility is that only the faithful will have access to such a sacred book and it won’t be available for the wicked Gentiles to gawk at. This post is total conjecture; don’t think I know something I don’t.

  515. Cement

    They had that – Warranz dictations. Only the FLDS werent even allowed to look at it, and I guess they still arent.

    Warrens made it famous though.

  516. Ron, How about the whole liability issues about wreckless regard for the truth, intentional fraud, personal liable and slander lawsuits? Betty going to describe believably life on the Felony Farm devoid of Child Brides, reassignments and edicts to worship ‘from afar’? How does she address Warren S. Jeffs presence on the YFZ Ranch while being wanted by the FBI Ten Most Wanted fugitives?

  517. I’ve been curious, Emack’s lopsided grin, is that from a stroke/tia or Bell’s Palsy, or an affectation?

  518. This week’s Eldorado Success just arrived.

    Emack’s plea is the lead article, of course.

    According to the Success, Emack was transferred from the Tom Green County Jail to the Schleicher County Jail where he is awaiting physical transfer to TDCJ.

  519. Huesos,
    In response to your question, Emack’s asymmetrical smile does not have the characteristics features consistent with either Bell’s Palsy or a stroke.
    It appears to be an affectation.

  520. An affectation of Gary Busey?

  521. Could just be the way his facial muscles work – genetics and all that.

  522. Which genetic disorder are you thinking of ?
    There is none that I can think of which produces that kind of appearance.

  523. “I’ve been curious, Emack’s lopsided grin, is that from a stroke/tia or Bell’s Palsy, or an affectation?”

    I’m guessing it’s just a reaction to nerves, myself. Everyone’s smiles are lopsided, although some are moreso than others. But there’s just something about it that screams: “I’m nervous as all get out and trying not to show it.” to me.

  524. I’m not thinking of a genetic disorder. I’m thinking of normal variation in attachment point and length of muscles, that sort of thing. For instance, my grandson makes facial expressions EXACTLY like the grandfather who died when the boy was less than one year old.

  525. Susan, she isn’t saying a genetic disorder — just that genetics can determine how lopsided our smile is compared to another. Right, Betty? :D

  526. Confession time. At a certain level, I feel sorry for these guys going to prison. I suppose what I feel sorry for them about is that they really felt what they were doing was not wrong.

    I mean if you’re raised in a certain culture that says X is not wrong and you operate on that premise for years suddenly to find out that your reality is screwed, it really is what I’d call a WTF moment.

    Now having said that they knew there was a competing culture that said “no, no, no” which they threw the proverbial finger at.

    I guess in my mind these guys must be thinking “holy shit, WTF?”

    My hope is that ultimately one of them will say, “this stinks” and will help to finally put an end to this twisted cult.

  527. I can see that Ron, and I feel that way myself somewhat. Except that when I think of the day to day realities of keeping a somewhat unwilling 15 year old concubine that feeling of sympathy completely goes away.

  528. Yes, Rebeckah. I think we’re over-analyzing just a tad.

  529. Betty

    I get where you’re coming from. I think that’s why they were so confused and trying to get some explanation from Warren.

    They had a certain level of cognitive dissonance that they couldn’t resolve.

  530. Ron that may be so in some cases where the men have had no contact with anyone outside the FLDS culture and therefore no knowledge that what they were doing was against the law. Of the men indicted I believe the only one that could possibly fall into that category would be Dutson. As for the case of Emack he spent 2 years in the US military, he was fully aware the he was committing a criminal act he has absolutely no excuse.

  531. Ron: I guess in my mind these guys must be thinking “holy shit, WTF?”

    My hope is that ultimately one of them will say, “this stinks” and will help to finally put an end to this twisted cult.
    ………………………………….

    I agree with this. However, there have been FLDS men who stood up to Rulon and/or Warren and said “this stinks.” Too bad more of them aren’t getting media attention.

    We’ll always have cults of one sort or another in this country.

  532. Ron, yes, that makes sense to me.

  533. And there will always be fundamental Mormonism.

    Recognition of Warren Jeffs as a crackpot who seeks to destroy those who have faith in him would be a good start for cleaning up the FLDS act.

    Those who have questioned him, however, pay a very high price.

    Who knows what it will take for the faithful to say “enough” of the bad craziness that Warren has created on his planet.

  534. I get where you’re coming from. I think that’s why they were so confused and trying to get some explanation from Warren.

    They had a certain level of cognitive dissonance that they couldn’t resolve.
    ……………………….

    IMO, that’s because in Warren’s world, God himself is a liar.

    The story of the super secret special cement is a good example.

    “God revealed a special recipe for cement to me, and we are going to use it to build our special temple.”

    Oooops. FAIL

    “Nevermind, God was just messing with me, to see if I say ‘how high’ whenever he says ‘jump.'”

    Then he pulled the same trick with his “I am not the Prophet” show.

  535. Ron

    “Confession time. At a certain level, I feel sorry for these guys going to prison. I suppose what I feel sorry for them about is that they really felt what they were doing was not wrong.”

    EXACTLY why there needs to be more discussion and education to them and the PPP who support them.

    Of course, a CelloSteel education is one seldom forgotten.

    Dont do the crime if ya cant do the time.

    Aint it amazing they still want to keep on keeping on doing the same old schtuff?

  536. Oh, Ron,

    I couldnt help notice that the Leprechaun has hung up his shingle as a mental health expert.

    Think he has I_hate_bigots figured out yet?

  537. No way on the WTF moment! The Prophet taught specifically on this ‘test’ and his concern fear was that the children would balk and not the Priesthood men. “We will go through the test a similar test like in the 1880s to see what we love most”. On November 24, 2003 Prophet Warren said,”The Lord will have me do this, get more girls married, not only as a test to the parents, but also to test this people to see if they will give the Prophet up”. He additionally, has said,”And I say to us: Stand with God, Priesthood and the Celestial Law [of Marriage] no matter what they do to our possession and our lands”.

    Pretty clear and concise instructions to me.

  538. “Confession time. At a certain level, I feel sorry for these guys going to prison. I suppose what I feel sorry for them about is that they really felt what they were doing was not wrong.”

    Yeah, me too. I hate the ruined lives created by this belief system — including the lives of those men.

    “I mean if you’re raised in a certain culture that says X is not wrong and you operate on that premise for years suddenly to find out that your reality is screwed, it really is what I’d call a WTF moment.”

    Again, I agree. I have to suspect, though, that on a fundamental level they KNEW it was wrong. Not only did/do they know that it is wrong in this larger culture in which they reside, but they just have to have known it as human beings.

    “Now having said that they knew there was a competing culture that said “no, no, no” which they threw the proverbial finger at.”

    Exactly.

    “I guess in my mind these guys must be thinking “holy shit, WTF?””

    Which they seem to be trying earnestly to change to “This is religious persecution.”.

    “My hope is that ultimately one of them will say, “this stinks” and will help to finally put an end to this twisted cult.”

    Amen. (And I mean that respectfully, even though I am not a believer.)

  539. Rulon never had the keys.jmo

    They all grew up hearing about the Short Creek Raid. They all know the hisory.

    If they didn’t know they were breaking the law why did they only marry one wife legally and the others were deemed as “spiritual wives”?

    Even after the raid and after the trials some are still determined to break the law. And with Shurtleffs lack of commitment to enforce the law the list will continue to grow.

    You guys were talking about books earlier. Check out Koziah the
    Goat lady. Amazing story. Sooo many great books.

    With so many “cults” in Utah why do you suppose they have only investigated the FLDS?

    Check out Brookes latest blog entry.

  540. Emack certainly knew better. He was out of the cult when he was in the military, and had prolonged contact with mainstream society during that time, so he would have known very well what our regulations were. He disregarded the rules. He paid the price.
    For those who never have had time away from the cult, I have more sympathy.

  541. Speaking of converts, what is Emack’s family history in that regard.

    Is he first or second generation polygamy?

  542. Emack certainly knew better. He was out of the cult when he was in the military, and had prolonged contact with mainstream society during that time, so he would have known very well what our regulations were. He disregarded the rules. He paid the price.

    Well, I could disagree whether he “knew better.” While he might have known certain rules, I suspect he disagreed with them and felt that if he broke them he should not be made to pay a price.

    I think what has happened is just. I guess I just have a little empathy for the cultural context of what has happened.

  543. The idea that I disagree with the rule for me and if I break them I shouldn’t pay a price strikes me as an issue of arrested development – the mentality we expect of children and young teenagers.

    If you really really believe then you should test the law and go to jail just like Jeff’s says – but you shouldn’t hide behind your wives and you shouldn’t have celestial marriages – you should do it all the way in your face with the rest of society in order to bring on a discussion with the larger society about the laws you disagree with.

    This is what bugs me about the “It is my right” people and those who draw analogies with the civil rights movement

  544. I think the issue really is what is the appropriate age for marriage.

    They knew since 1953 that society viewed plural marriage as a “no no.”

    I don’t think the appropriate age for marriage had been resolved for the FLDS. (Crap, it hadn’t really been resolved for secular society yet.)

    You and I know that some older guy and a 14 year old is clearly a “no no.” I don’t think it was that clear in their minds. Warren told them it was OK. They drank that cool aid and now they’re vomiting up the results.

    Eh, well, I guess life sucks some times.

  545. I have tons of empathy for everyone being imprisoned in the wake of the recent trials, but I have less empathy for those who spent a significant period of time away from the cult, such as those who had time away for military service.
    The federal and state governments let things get out of hand down there for a very long time, and yes, I can understand why some FLDS thought that they would never have to expect punishment, given the fact that no action was taken for decades.

  546. Now lookyhere, ALL those men work out in the real world, to bring money into Warren’s Wallet. Don’t kid yourself.

  547. TexasTwist asked about the Church of the Firstborn.

    If I recall this is the name of another splinter church by Fred Collins.

    Hey, I guess you guys thought you had heard of all of these splinter Utah Mormon Fundie groups. BUT NOOOOOO.

    The 1st group started by the LeBaron brothers was called Church of the Firstborn of the Fullness of Times. Joel LeBaron was the head dude in that group.

    When crazy Ervil split off and started his LeBaron church of terror it was the Church of the Lamb of God.

  548. Utah also happens to be the fraud capital of the US, some times they catch them sometimes they dont.

    It sucks when ya get caught but I’d expect theyre big boys and know the gamble.

    No love lost for any of em.

  549. There used to be a real publishing house in the Creek called Twin City Publishing. They published church sermon pamphlets and also really nice hard bound books such as Rulon Jeffs’ “In Light and Truth”. If it is still in operation, it could publish a very nice edition of Betty Jessop’s memoir.

    However, distribution will still be limited and I doubt Betty will go on book signing tours.

  550. I bet those sermon pamphelts are big sellers.

  551. Eldorado Success reports that Emack intends to also plead No Contest to the bigamy charge, in exchange for a second 7-year prison term, to be served concurrently with the 7-year sentence for sexual assault of a minor. He could possibly be paroled after 3.5 years.

    Emack will join with other defendants in challenging the constitutionality of Texas’ bigamy law.

    Sorry if this is old news; just read it today and I hadn’t heard what the plea agreement was for the bigamy charge.

  552. Referencing something Ron said, I have been told that that those in the FLDS who heard, read or were told about Warren’s jailhouse confession that he was not the prophet and had never been the prophet just could not or refused to believe it.

    Imagine how devastating it would be to find out that your “prophet” is a fraud. The faithful followers just couldn’t handle Warren’s declaration. They couldn’t handle the reality that their lives and sacrifices were all for naught and their leader was a sham.

    It is my understanding that is why Warren’s photo still hangs on everybody’s wall. They can’t cope with the idea that he is not their prophet and everything they have believed in is false.

    Yep, a HUGE WTF moment that they just can’t face and acknowledge. So, they bury their heads in the sand and life goes on as usual.

    Status quo. Same as it ever was!

  553. I’d buy the unabridged dictations, Stamp.

    Heck, I’d like an autographed copy.

  554. Walton mentioned Kaziah Mae Hancock’s book. It is called “Prisons of the Mind”. Used copies can be found on Amazon and eBay’s half.com

    I highly recommend this book. You won’t be able to put it down.

    Kaziah was a member of yet another Utah Mormon Fundie group called the TLC – True and Living Church run by Jim Harmstrom of Manti, Utah.

    Kaziah is a very talented artist. Today, she paints portraits of our US soldiers who have died in the line of duty (usually Iraq) and gives the paintings to the fallen soldier’s family.

    What a remarkable lady she is!!!!!

  555. It was also Harmston’s TLC church which is the topic of John Lewellyn’s “The Rape of Rachel Strong” book.

  556. Ron said:”I think the issue really is what is the appropriate age for marriage.

    They knew since 1953 that society viewed plural marriage as a “no no.”

    Ron do you honestly believe that? They knew long before Short Creek. How do you suppose Short Creek came to be?
    Goodness sake look at the rich history of Utah. Follow the wagon trains and you will see why, where and how the FLDS and other off shoot greedy,power contolling,abusuve cults came alive.

    Marrying under age girls is only part of the law breaking that these cults are partcipating in.
    Saying that is just the problem is making excuses to allow all the other B.S. room to continue.

    I am surprised that you said that Ron.
    Have you forgotten Johnny Jessop? Geidon Barlow? The many kids that were tossed out?
    Dan Barlowa has never been charged with trying to defraud the govt.

    Shurtleff said they wouldn’t do anything unless they were breaking other laws.

    That says to me he is lazy and opens the door wider for the coniuation of more laws being broken.

  557. Well I am not FLDS and I didn’t believe Warrens confession.

    First off I truly don’t believe that the Jeffs had the keys. Rulon wasn’t a Prophet either.

    But Warren thought his Father was and so shall he be. And in his mind he was. He was trying to follow Joseph Smiths path and if Texas wouldn’t have stepped in no telling what might have happened.

    He can’t just stand up and say ok the party is over. It doesn’t follow the rules of their history. And hisory wouldn’t allow a Willie any Willie to be his successor.

    As long as Warren is alive I think he will remain the Prophet. If he died next week they all might stand a chance to use their own two feet. jmo

  558. Walton,
    What was / or is / your spiritual orientation ?

  559. My father was Lutheran and my Mother was Catholic.
    As kids we attended many different Church services. We also were able to attend some Native American ceremonies.

    I’ve been to services with the best sound equipment and not heard a word about God. And I’ve been to small Churches that were packed that you leaned into the crowd to not miss any of the sermon.

    I’ve been to Churches lined with Gold and and sat in some with no heat and still felt warm.

    I believe in God and yet I don’t have a Church to call my own.

    I don’t want to see Warren die. I’d like to see him in court and justice done. But more than that I’d like to see other people stand on their own two feet with out standing on others to do it.

    I am no writer and sometimes my words come out wrong and more often misspelled. for that I am sorry.

  560. Eloquently put, Walton. Thanks

  561. You guys should really check out the 6 hour meeting with Taylor and his vision. That is where the key issues come into play.

    Only so many people had the keys and yet now everyone claims they have the keys.

    But what is really funny is if they were all going by what their true Church said…. none of those groups hold keys.

    Not the FLDS, the Kingstons, Allreds, Johnsons or anyone else out there that popped up like moles in the night.

  562. Your welcome Catwhisperer.

    My eyes are bad and I am using one of those little notebook things.

    You’d think they could come up with an old people computer.

    see you all Thurs.

  563. By golly, the Allen Glade Steed hearing is back on the court calendar for this Friday. It was, then it wasn’t, it was, then it wasn’t. Tonight it is. We shall see

    FIFTH DISTRICT COURT-ST GEORGE
    G RAND BEACHAM January 29, 2010
    Courtroom 3A Friday
    01:30 PM
    ——————————————————————————
    1-HR ORAL ARGUMENTS S27 071501596 State Felony
    STATE OF UTAH ATTY: BELNAP, BROCK R
    FILTER, BRIAN G
    VS.
    STEED, ALLEN GLADE ATTY: BRADSHAW, JIM C
    OTN: 19095116 DOB: 05/12/1981
    F1 – RAPE – 04/14/01
    ——————————————————————————

  564. Walton, someone here had a simple keyboard command for increasing the font size of the page but I forget what it is. Could you tell us again, whoever you are? I lost my glasses and could use some larger font right now too. :D

  565. Note: for the uninitiated. The following is commonly referred to as *Satire*. If you’re inclined to get your special-undies bunched up, please scroll past. thanks-so-much.
    ______

    In light of Ron-in-Houston’s recent comments concerning his empathy for the cultural dissonance which has led to jail terms for FLDS males. I feel compelled to make a confession of my own.

    Over the past year, the many lucid, fact-driven and erudite comments made by PRO-polyamory Constitutionalists have caused me to reconsider my profound bigotry.

    After deep soul-searching (and a bit of googling) I believe now, that I may — in fact– be called to THE PRINCIPLE.

    Now if it was easy….it would be called THE EASY….and not THE PRINCIPLE. So please understand, that it’s with great deliberation and scrutiny that I enter into belief that polyamory might be just the thing for me….AND worth breaking the law.

    So… with my legal husband’s approval (which I’ve yet to obtain, or even ask about) I hope to cast off my bigotry and embrace a new way of life.

    I’m in negotiation with my future brother-husbands — which mostly concerns scheduling of the TV remote and who’s in charge of the grill on Game Day.

    No one said being the Priestess-Holder would be easy, but after all — it is a *calling*. ;)

  566. Twist

    I found me an old copy of vinstage 1905 “Blood Atonement and the Origin of Plural Marriage” by the precurser of todays Deseret Books, not signed but its all about President Joseph Fielding Smith, these topics and affidavits of the wives.

  567. TexasMom,

    So which one is the auto mechanic and which one is the gardener?

    And please tell me they can cook.

  568. 1905 — that has to be some interesting reading, Stamp.

    I’m finding pieces of information about the Church of the Firstborn that is helping me with understanding it in the context where I’m seeing it.

    I’m also looking for information about the School of the Prophets beyond Crossfield’s that was attended by the Laffertys.

    Still reaching to know how (or if) Robert Crossfield is related to the Bountiful Crossfields.

  569. Rebeckah, hold down the control key and hit the plus sign. To font down, hold down the control key and hit the minus sign.

    I wasn’t the original poster, but I use it a lot. They have my eternal gratitude.

  570. Stamp, that sounds like an interesting book. After you finish it could you write a brief synopsis?

  571. Some great posts.

    btw hat tip to LadySadie on the font tip.

    Texas mom, do you have to train the fire fighters to Keep Sweet?

    I’m thinking the remote on Football bowl day may be a source of contention. Also the brand of beer ya buy.

    Twist, did you read Krakaurs “Under the Banner of Heaven” yet?

  572. Joseph Fielding Smith (1876-1972), the tenth President of the Church, was born July 19, 1876, in Salt Lake City, the firstborn son of Joseph F. Smith, an apostle who would become the sixth President of the Church, and Julina Lambson, the first of his six plural wives. His grandfather was the Patriarch Hyrum Smith.

    snip~~~~

    As antipolygamy sentiment raged in the early 1900s, Joseph Fielding felt the injustice of the attacks upon the Church and the men whom he knew and loved, such as his father. Some of his first publications were defenses of historical Church doctrine and practice,

    including “Blood Atonement and the Origin of Plural Marriage”

    (1905)

    and Origin of the “Reorganized” Church: The Question of Succession (1907).”

    =============================

    http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/people/joseph_fielding_smith.html

  573. Meile,

    I will. I have skimmed it, and its not large. The bulk of it is actually a public cat fight between JFS and the Reformed LDS Church, as played out in a Canadian paper.

    I saw the affidavits of Plural wives but havent gotten the dates yet but feel he continued the Principle AFTER the Woodruff manifesto.

  574. They knew since 1953 that society viewed plural marriage as a “no no.”

    Ron do you honestly believe that? They knew long before Short Creek. How do you suppose Short Creek came to be?

    Walton – you’re getting way, way too literal. Yeah, they knew before that. Perhaps I should have said “they knew in 1953 society had little toleration for plural marriage.”

    Either way – I picked 1953 since it was the raid and numbers of them were prosecuted.

  575. What I find interesting is the shift in society about such things.

    Obviously, gay people are getting more rights, yet sex offenders are getting less.

    It all points to mutual adult consent. Still, there are bigamy laws that are still being enforced.

    I wont stand silent in a society that allows the abuse of children. I think I’ve already made that abundantly clear though.

    IRT the sentences, they are well deserved IMHO. What concerns me more is the ongoing saga the leaders force on all these children. What a mess, see what happens when you ignore it and sweep it under the rug for 50 years?

  576. Oh that reminds me Ron, you remember that guy who hangs his shingle saying he is a mental health and legal expert in Colorado in his spare time?

    Yanno, where he was making gratuitous internet mental health diagnosis, at that place where I saw your and “bigot haters” message tracks?

    Turns out the polygyny lost boy plead guilty, and faces 40 years and 50 large at sentencing. The burglary probation background he totes along with him wont help him at sentencing either. Its really a rather wild story how they got him on that too, and the bit about hiding the booze he stole out of the Hi Ho Tavern.

    I normally wouldnt bring all that baggage up, but since I saw daddy playing doctor, well. its seems it would be a good time to remind him he has other illnesses to attend to a little closer to home.

    Such is the life of a wanna-be pedo polygynist.

  577. Texas Mom,
    After seeing the photo of those men, I suddenly feeling the calling to become a polyandrist. (is it warm in here, or is that just me?)

  578. Well darn another polygamist that is being prosecuted, it MUST be persecution I tell ya:

    http://www.freep.com/article/20100127/NEWS03/100127032/1001/news/Judge-warns-podiatrist-in-polygamy-case

  579. I have always wondered about the “keys”, what do they open/lock, what color are they, are they like a big skeleton key or do they have a microchip in them?

    But not to worry following TexasMom’s revelation I checked out her firefighters and lo and behold I found the keys in one of their pockets, they had been holding on to them just for me. So don’t worry folks the keys are safe and I’ll take real good care of them and only pass them along to someone just as worthy as me.

  580. I do believe we have received a collective revelation

  581. Meile
    – thanks so much for the keyboard font enlarger formula – man, that helps so much – wished Id known this before now!

  582. Ah yes catwhisperer, a collective revelation then it MUST be true! I will start working on finding the right location for our compound, you start working on getting the donations from the minions!

  583. We need something as powerful to men as large numbers of babies are to women, something that will keep them tired, busy and imprisoned in the house. I suggest that we all buy a Wii, a playstation and a HUGE HDTV screen. If they drink too much beer, we run Wii fit until they work it off.

  584. Remember :
    It was Judas, a man, who betrayed Christ, not a woman. We know, therefore, that men must pay the price for Judas’ disobedience.
    Only through contact with a select group of worthy and God fearing women can men expect to achieve salvation.

  585. Amen, sistah.

  586. TexasMom,
    I think you should require that all husband applicants provide resumes.

  587. this may be a tongue in cheek dialogue, but the reference to Judas is interesting – it was a man who betrayed Jesus and maybe it will be one of the men who actually bring down their false prophet

  588. these flds women must be scared out of their minds to think their salvation depends on defending the prophet who holds the ticket – or should I say keys – to their future – both on earth and in the hereafter – better if his key men get smart and one of them have the courage to blow the whistle big time

  589. Betty, Catwhisperer and LadySadie – there are now 6 month WoW cards on the internet — spendy but certainly an effective tie for any cute nerdy husbands “worthy” to join this group. Of course, making them turn the garden by hand,eschew the use of tools (except for computers, Wiis, and television remotes, of course) and sowing, reaping and putting up the harvest by hand might be useful ways to turn that testosterone laden energy to the Lord’s praise. Just a couple of ideas. ;)

  590. The Wilford Woodruff “Manifesto” was released in late 1890 – in October I think. It was read to the church members during their semi-annual General Session.

    It did NOT stop the Mormons from practicing polygamy. Wilford Woodruff himself took at least one other plural wife after issuing his “Manifesto” to his church followers.

    MANY of the leaders continued polygamy and taking more plural wives.

    Joseph Fielding Smith even continued it.

    Then, in 1904, there was the “Second Manifesto” issued by the Mormons. This one came from Joseph Fielding Smith who was the Mormon prophet, seer and revelator at the time.

    That is probably why the book Stamp found is dated 1905 – one year after Joseph Fielding Smith delivered this “Second Manifesto”. It was probably a PR ploy on the part of the Mormons – “NO we don’t do THAT”!

    However, this “Second Manifesto” still didn’t stop the practice of polygamy.

    There was later a “Final Manifesto” issued. I am not positive about the date, but I think it was around 1935.

    After this “Final Manifesto” the LDS church started excommunicating church members who were still taking plural wives.

    So, when you read that the LDS church stopped practicing plural marriage in 1890, know that it is NOT true because their leadership just ignored Woodruff’s 1890 Manifesto. After all, it was just a “manifesto” instead of a revelation from God.

    Many media reporters and LDS missionaries make this statement that polygamy stopped in the Mormon church in 1890.

    It is a load of crap.

  591. Now that I think about it, the “Final Manifesto” was probably issued in the 1920’s instead of the 1930’s because I think the first LDS crackdown was in 1933 when some men were arrested for practicing polygamy and sent to Sugarhouse prison in SLC.

    Regardless, church members just ignored the 1st 2 announcements and continued to practice polygamy well into the 20th century.

  592. Walton: But more than that I’d like to see other people stand on their own two feet with out standing on others to do it.

    I am no writer and sometimes my words come out wrong and more often misspelled. for that I am sorry.
    ……………………………………

    You don’t need to apologize – what you just said was very insightful.

    My dream is that women all over the world will be able to stand on their own two feet without men pushing them down.

  593. Texas twist: just wondering how you are so informed about the flds, are you a former member?
    I’m sure this has been discussed before, but I don’t get on the blogs much, so I am curious how many posters here are former flds, how many are former other polygamist groups, etc.
    maybe a poll?
    anyway, I enjoy this blog a lot, and I think I am addicted

  594. Yes resumes must be presented for consideration into our new compound, just a few requirements, one being must be absolutely the best physical specimens ever created and another being must all be multi-millionaires, you see the keys are very expensive to keep in shiny working order and I need things nice bright shiny expensive things!

  595. Rebeckah, I’ve got a nearly infinite list of household duties, renovations, repairs, landscaping, etc. I’ve proven that one man can’t meet my needs year ago. One of them could be sick, working out of town, injured or getting to old to keep up. It’s only natural that I bring in more help to meet these needs. Lord knows, I should not be expected to do without and obviously, I’m too busy with Priestesshood work to waste my time on it.

  596. I posted wrong last night when I said the Church of the Firstborn was Fred Collin’s group. His name is Collier not Collins.

    However this is a different church than the LeBaron’s Church of the Firstborn of the Fullness of Time.

    TexasTwist, there is a pamphlet printed in the 1950’s I think that contains a letter written by one of the LeBaron brothers to an Elder in the LDS church discussing polygamy. The pamphlet contains the reply back from said Elder to the LeBaron guy.

    I’ll see if I can find the name of that pamphlet for you. I have read it and it is pretty dry and boring, but it might provide some of the info you are seeking.

  597. Once Bitten,
    I am not an ex – FLDS, however, Lady Sadie, Betty and I have received a revelation that polyandry is the one and only way to guarantee a man’s salvation. We are thinking up a name for our new group, creating our own compound, and soliciting donations from the faithful.

  598. FYI, the February issue of National Geographic is now available in stores. I know Wal-Mart has it in stock.

  599. Now that I think about it, the “Final Manifesto” was probably issued in the 1920’s instead of the 1930’s because I think the first LDS crackdown was in 1933 when some men were arrested for practicing polygamy and sent to Sugarhouse prison in SLC.

    Regardless, church members just ignored the 1st 2 announcements and continued to practice polygamy well into the 20th century.
    …………………

    We are now into the 21st century and some obviously are still practising it.

    IMO, Joseph Smith was a charismatic con man who figured out a way to justify sleeping around like a tom cat. “God told me it’s the only way to get into heaven.”

    I used to think he made up the Book of Mormon. Now I believe it’s more likely that he plagiarized it.

  600. OH dang my worst nightmare! Now the Ladies have those pesky keys!

  601. It was plagiarized from numerous other texts:
    Critics of the Book of Mormon claim that the book was fabricated by Smith ….portions of it were plagarized from various works that were available to Smith, ranging from the King James Bible,The Wonders of Nature, View of the Hebrews,to an unpublished manuscript written by Solomon Spalding….
    See Wikipedia

  602. Church of the First Born

    (Defunct)

    When Joel LeBaron, founder of the Church of the First Born of the Fullness of Times, claimed Patriarchal Priesthood for himself, his brother, Ross Wesley LeBaron, rejected Joel’s claim in favor of himself. He thus left his brother’s church and formed the Church of the First Born. The statement of beliefs published by Ross Le-baron emphasized belief in Michael, the Eternal Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in Joseph Smith, the witness and testator. The Church of the First Born was established originally by Adam and restored in Joseph Smith. A belief in One Mighty and Strong to come was firmly held. LeBaron disincorporated the church in the early 1980s.

  603. Church of the First Born of the Fullness of Times

    5854 Mira Serana
    El Paso, TX 79912

    Church of the First Born of the Fullness of Times dates to the participation among Mormon fundamentalist groups of the LeBaron family–Alma Dayer LeBaron, his sons Floren LeBaron, Benjamin F. LeBaron, Alma LeBaron, Jr., Ross Wesley LeBaron, Ervil LeBaron, Joel LeBaron, Verlan M. LeBaron, and a cousin, Owen LeBaron. Alma Dayer LeBaron who, with his family, was a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was affiliated with polygamist leader Joseph White Musser as early as 1936. In 1934, Benjamin claimed to be the One Mighty and Strong, the prophetic figure mentioned in the Mormon writings (Doctrines and Covenants 85), and he convinced several members of the family to substantiate his claims as a prophet. In 1944 the LeBaron family was excommunicated. From then until 1955, most of the family associated with the “fundamentalist” colony in Mexico directed by Rulon C. Allred, leader of the Apostolic United Brethren. The LeBaron family members were in the process of setting up a united order (a communal economic style of living) when, in 1955, they decided to leave Allred’s Mexican colony.

    Joel, Ross Wesley, and Floren worked out the basic order of their own church and incorporated on September 1, 1955, under the name of the Church of the First Born of the Fullness of Times. Joel claimed to have the “Patriarchal Priesthood” and had a revelation directing Allred to become his councilor. Allred rejected the invitation. Both Benjamin and Ross Wesley also rejected his claims.

    Joel claimed a line of priesthood succession through his father, Alma, Sr., to Alma’s grandfather, Benjamin F. Johnson, who was secretly ordained by Joseph Smith. (Mormon authorities point out that Johnson accepted the Manifesto of 1890 abolishing polygamy.) Joel claimed that the priesthood was superior to the presidency of the church, the apostles, and seventies.

    Joel LeBaron led the Church of the First Born of the Fullness of Times until he was murdered in 1972. He was succeeded by his brother Verlan, who was killed in an automobile accident in 1981. The current leader of the Church is Siegfried Widmar. For a number of years the Church issued a magazine, Ensign, in which most of its doctrinal and polemical works were published.

    Membership: The group is small, containing several hundred members at most. Most of the membership is located in Mexico.

  604. Church of the Lamb of God

    The Church of the Lamb of God was formed in 1970 by Ervil LeBaron, who had held the second-highest office in the Church of the First Born of the Fullness of Times, founded by his brother, Joel LeBaron. In that year Ervil was dismissed from the Church of the First Born of the Fullness of Times. As the leader of his new church, he claimed full authority over all of the polygamy-practicing groups, and asserted an authority to execute anyone who would refuse to accept him as the representative of God.

    Beginning at the time of the establishment of the Church of the Lamb of God, a string of murders and feloneous attacks plagued the polygamy-practicing Mormons. On August 20, 1972, Joel Le-Baron was shot to death in Ensenada, Mexico. On June 16, 1975, Dean Vest, an associate of Joel LeBaron, was killed near San Diego. On May 10, 1977, Dr. Rulon C. Allred, leader of the Apostolic United Brethren, a rival polygamy group, was brutally murdered in his chiropractic office in Salt Lake City while attending patients. On May 14, 1977, Merlin Kingston, another polygamy leader, narrowly survived an attempt on his life. At least thirteen other polygamy-practicing Mormons were killed before Ervil was arrested, tried, convicted, and sentenced in 1980 for the death of Allred. He died in prison the following year of natural causes.

    After Ervil LeBaron’s death, his son Aaron LeBaron emerged as the new leader of the group. Deaths associated with the group continued, mostly prominenly the the 1988 slayings of Ed Marston, Mark and Duane Chynoweth, and Duane’s eight-year-old daughter, Jenny. In 1997, Aaron LeBaron was convicted of conspiracy to commit murder and racketeering in connection with these deaths. Reportedly, these former members were killed because the church’s belief that anyone who left the group had to be killed before the members could inherit God’s kingdom on Earth.

    Membership: Not reported. Since the death of Ervil LeBaron, there have been conflicting reports of the disbanding of the Church. Its present status is unknown.

  605. TexasTwist,
    See if you can find these pamphlets. The 1st one is the one I have read and you might find a used copy on Alibris.com or abebooks.com. Our local library had it stocked a few years ago, that is how I read a copy of it. I highly doubt you will find a copy of the other 2. The 1st one was put out by the LDS church. The others were probably just privately published.

    Richards, Henry W. A Reply to “The Church of the Firstborn of the Fullness of Times”. Salt Lake City: The Author, 1965.

    Silver, Stephen M. “Priesthood and Presidency, An Answer to Henry W. Richards.”Ensign2, no. 11 (January 1963): 1-127.

    LeBaron, Ervil. An Open Letter to a Former Presiding Bishop. San Diego: The Author, 1972.

  606. Ron you can dance around it all you want. You know what I am talking about.

    http://www.onlineutah.com/polygamyhistoryembry.shtml

    http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/12PSindex.htm

    Show me an article that announces Polygamy was an issue in other states.

    It started in the Eastern part of the Country and moved West by wagon train.

    The stories have been passed on from generation to generation.

  607. Hey you guys I can see. :) I did what you suggested and the print is larger.

    This little note book thing is small anyway. But when I turned the computer this way and that way and saw my nose print on the screen from trying to read, I knew I had issues. j/k

    Are you able to help me out with fat fingers and small key boards? :)

    Thanks everybody

  608. LadieSadie,

    Can I be one of the compound’s thugs?

    I can be physically intimidating.

    Really, I can be.

  609. Stamp,

    I got an autographed copy of Under the Banner of Heaven in 2005 in San Angelo.

    Krakauer and his book are partially responsibility for why I’ve had such an interest in this saga. I was already a big fan of his books Into Thin Air and Into the Wild.

  610. Twist,
    I do believe you are hearing the call as well.
    You are most welcome to join us.

  611. O my gosh. Persecution and genocide of the podiatrists.

    Ya see?

    Warren has it right. It’s almost all over now.

    Who knew the podiatrists were next on the chopping block.

  612. You got it Twist!

  613. Cool, cw.

    Can I have a couple of auto mechanics and having a plumber in the stable would also be nice.

    I’ll also take an electrician if there are any of them available.

    Whose ring to I have to kiss to get what I want?

  614. Wawl! since im over 55 and NOT a perfect specimen of health, can no longer bear children, guess my resume will go in the dumper!! LOL :)

  615. OK, we need to get cracking on the donations, we can even have our own compound in Texas as long as we avoid any underage dealings, which is a mandate of our polyandry group – NO UNDERAGE ANYTHING.

    Found some pretty cheap land near El Paso, not being from Texas I will need the Texas members to determine if this will work:

    http://www.texaslandforeclosures.net/listings/

  616. DD1 the perfect specimen requirements are for the husbands only!

  617. Twist,
    I believe the first among us to have the revelation would be the Prophetess. That would be Texas Mom.
    Since then, it is apparent that most of us have received the revelation and the calling to polyandry.

  618. El Paso area is nothing but desert ladysadie,, and ugly!!! You sure?

  619. Oh,, husbands huh? Hmmmm, well that might be interestin! :)

  620. Nope DD1 not sure at all that’s why Texas members are needed, LOL.

  621. this is better ladysadie,, hill country – James river ranch.

    http://www.hillcountryranches.com/River_Ranch.asp

  622. Ah do believe I feel the calling to relocate to Texas now.

  623. oncebitten,

    No, I am not former FLDS or anything similiar.

    I knew of the existence of fundamentalist Mormonism in Short Creek and some of the other areas and remembered some of the LeBaron’s murders in Texas.

    My interest was piqued after some of the YFZ secrets were first uncovered. I’m a self admitted information junkie so I’m always looking for more on subjects that hold my interest.

    When it became clear to me that both sides (CPS and FLDS) were obfuscating to some degree the real numbers and facts out of YFZ, I decided to collect what data was publicly available to see what the reality was as far as teen brides at YFZ.

    Fortunately, Warren Jeffs has created an extensive record that reveals more and more as the documents are made public.

    His his a fascinating story of true crime and I’ve always loved history and sociology. Thus, I’m hooked on what I think is a great American story.

    I am in deep gratitude to former FLDS members such as yourself who freely share your experience and knowledge.

  624. Anonymous,

    Thank you very much for the recommended reads.

  625. Our Dear Beloved Profitess Sadie,

    You are clearly guided by the hands of Venus.

    The Lands of Refuge have to be those tracts that have the cows.

    Venus bless the sacred cows.

    As far as the desert goes, the Van Horn area is really quite pretty.

    One of the tracts also comes with a surveyor (kinda cute, too) and we’ll certainly need some of those in our Zion.

  626. You might call it the ‘WFA Ranch’ and hope some unwitting apostates show up at the gate asking to stay there. Oh, the initials stand for ‘Worshiping From Afar Ranch’.

  627. Great idea, cajiM.

    We’re gonna need a lot of skilled workers…um…er…husbands.

  628. How bout the name “WWUCAP”? Worshiping Women Up Close and Personal”
    LOL

  629. How about LOL – Ladies of Leisure.

  630. Hmm, both these names are interesting…. we need a name which clearly acknowledges the fallen state of men, since it was a man who betrayed Christ, and therefore women clearly need to lead, cleanse and redeem these fallen male souls.

  631. Have you considered the Boston area? You could recruit from Harvard and M.I.T.

    Brains and brawn are good attributes to have in a husband.

    Besides, Massachusettes is liberal with personal relationships. Ya know, gay rights and all.

  632. a church name with the word “matriarchal” might be in order here…

  633. How about Righteous Women of Leadership? The RWL.

  634. Perhaps then, Righteous Matriarchs of Christ? ;)

  635. Boston is way too cold.

  636. First Church of the Holy Matriarchs of the Lamb of God (if you like really long names like some fundamentalists seem to do). :D

  637. You could start a HOOT II – Hunks Obeying Ordained Temptress

  638. TexasTwist – may I make a suggestion? Move it from Van Horn down to Marfa. Then incorporate the Marfa lights into the writings of ancient history of the sect. Call anyone who disagrees a ‘hater.’

    Then when outsiders come to see the Marfa lights you can claim persecution, scream “sacred not secret”, jump up and down and pitch a collective hissy fit.

    TexasMom needs pull out the keys (I thought Captain Kangaroo had ‘em.)fire up the priestesses to warm up the fella’s and teach them to look really sad for the tee vee camera’s.

    Then, you’ve got her made in the shade.

    .

  639. Yes Miele, any man who disagrees with us regarding the sacred,divine calling of Priestesshood, or the Principle of
    Divine Polyandry which lead to a man’s redeption, salvation, and exaltation, is simply a hater and a religious bigot.

  640. Good idea, Miele.

    That much closer to the Riata in Alpine and the Gage Hotel in Marathon.

    Not that we’re into worldy things, of course.

    Partaking of the sacred cow at the Riata is a spiritual experience.

  641. Anon 11:56 AM :
    why do we need men with brawn AND brains? From MIT or Harvard?
    surely the cost of such an education would deplete their dowries.
    a man does not need to be educated. that is most appropriate for women.
    brawn and physical ability is all that is required of them,so that they have time and energy to complete the household tasks and heavy manual labor which is required of them, in order to work out their redemption.

  642. CW, you’re gonna need some ‘haters.’ You can’t be persecuted without them. Even bad publicity is better than none.

    You’re also going to need a spokesperson. Please make them at least amusing. Since Bagdad Bob is on the be-back board, I’d put a page in for Stamp.

    I can’t join, because unlike some people, my word isn’t pretty much solid. It’s solid. Besides, I might start my own. I’m afraid of ya’ll coming after mine.

  643. First Church of the Holy Matriarchs gets my vote.
    What say you all?

  644. Twist, speaking of Riata – you could claim the house from the movie ‘Giant’ was your temple and it was defiled. So you let it fall down. Claim the land.

    When you speaketh of sacred cows and Riata, I feel that this is Mother’s test.

  645. what is the Riata?

  646. You’re going to need a lawyer. I can do the part of Rodney Parker.
    I don’t know anything about the law, but then again, neither does he.

  647. A male attorney?
    already possibly suspect and substandard.
    think again.

  648. CW, haven’t you ever seen the movie “Giant?” It was filmed in Marfa, Tx. Riata was the name of Rock Hudson’s ranch.

  649. Can’t we just call it the WTF Ranch?

    Hey can I sell y’all my old place, it’s on the market?

  650. I didn’t see the movie Giant yet. Met Rock
    Hudson on Fire Island as a child though….

  651. WTF ranch. LOL.

    I’m a girl, CW.

  652. alrighty then Miele, you are suitable to be our attorney, simply due to your superior gender status.
    WTF Ranch sounds good to me.

  653. Very well then, we are the First Church of the Holy Matriarchs of the WTF Ranch.
    Has a nice ring to it.

  654. LOL granny!!

  655. I’ll gladly join that matriarchal church as a high priestess! Old age should give me some high ranking.

  656. Behold the Riata.

    http://www.reata.net/alpine-texas-restaurant.html

    Ommmmmm……..

    Yum…………

  657. surely this Reata should be accorded sacramental status…

  658. Oh yeah, and that Riata, too.

    Can I have a James Dean?

    I’ll give up my plumber and an electrician for that one.

    Gotta keep my mechanic, though.

    Me and Jimmy gotta be able to cruise Highway 90 in a 1960’s Cadillac convertible.

  659. We could look at reassigning a James Dean type to you, Twist.

  660. Twist, I don’t know how to break this to you, but James is like, dead. But you can pretend he’s in the next room. As a matter of fact you should consider him to be in the next room.

    This is another of Mother’s tests.

    I’m headed over to the Supreme Court to file the incorporation papers. Anyone else need a Whataburger and a shake?

  661. “Divine Polyandry which lead to a man’s redeption, salvation, and exaltation, is simply a hater and a religious bigot.”

    Your care and consideration of these poor, righteously challenged males is TRULY inspiring. I believe that the garments they wear off of the ranch should be something like a burka, but only in white as they seek to redeem their testosterone sullied souls. It would be just WRONG to allow the impure eyes of the evil outside world to view your pure and righteous men. Of course, they really have no need to leave the ranch at all. Hmmm, you’ll need a few doctors, nurses and dentist too, won’t you.

    I’d join but I’m afraid I’m just too outspoken and might give those poor men the idea they were somehow worthy on their own. ;)

  662. E’s not dead, Miele.

    He was lifted up when he was to be restored to his earthly body upon the redemption of the Zioness.

    We have entered the days of the reconstructions so some of the departed are yearning to be husbands to a Priestesshood master.

    We had a data glitch with Elvis, though, so the only model available is the 1978 edition.

    More than a few heads rolled over that one.

    Cheese and mustard and cut the tomato, please.

  663. Rebeckah,
    Did you suggest men were worthy on their own?
    Do you not remember the story of Judas ?
    Your ideas are SIN and you NEED to REPENT now !!

  664. Oh. In that case maybe TexasMom, I mean Priestess President TexasMom will give me Buddy Holly. Rave on, baby.

    I made oral arguments to the supreme court, they punched it in the docket, said $4.68, pull up to the window and then they gave me the paperwork. I’ll keep it all together.

    Oh, and this afternoon, we’re suing ourselves.

  665. ROFL Y’all shoulda warned me. Caught up on today’s comments and had to wipe iced tea off the keyboard.

  666. Shux y’all I’ve had this Snow White syndrome, it seems like millenia already. You know, 7 little dwarves, 7 little paychecks … Don’t one of you have one that can cook?

  667. Absolutely Granny, cooking is a good skill for a WTF Ranch man to have.

  668. Dang I actually had to do some work and am so behind on the important issue of naming our cult, er I mean religion. I really like Anonymous’ suggestion:

    “You could start a HOOT II – Hunks Obeying Ordained Temptress”

  669. Lady Sadie,
    During your absence, we decide on the First Church of the Holy Matriarchs of the WTF Ranch. We would have to find a way to fit HOOT in there.

  670. Sorry Granny. No 7 paychecks. It all goes into the united effort. Just wants and needs and all that.

    I need more retainer, because my dually burns a lot of diesel. I’ve been to the court 14 times today.

    I had to sue Rodney Parker and the 50 Peso Reward. In our suit, rest assured we answered them nothing.

  671. OMG, WTF Ranch I love it.

  672. Well to let you know my just wants and needs are a 50 caret diamond ring, with a tiara to match, a 30 bdr/35bth oceanfront mansion with indoor and outdoor pool, 2 mercedes, 1 jaguar, 4 cadallic escalades (all red) and oh if someone to recruit Matthew McConaughey, Tim McGraw, and Patrick Dempsey that would be a real good start.

  673. Well of course we have wants. Like that fully stocked club room. And our laptops. Chocolate, stuff like that, and trips to wallyworld and Nordies.

  674. “Did you suggest men were worthy on their own?
    Do you not remember the story of Judas ?
    Your ideas are SIN and you NEED to REPENT now !!”

    I know I’m not worthy, that’s why I haven’t asked to join. I’m trying to repent but I haven’t pented yet so I’m not sure how to re- it. But I will continue to strive to meet the high standards of the Priestesshood and earn a small corner of Paradise while I repent from afar. (You need someone repenting – or even penting — from afar, right?) Alas, I have no husband(s) for you to reassign but I do have 4 grandsons and a son who knows how to cook and clean (but just try getting him to do the dishes). Also, my daughter, daughter in law, and grandson have been righteously brought up in the knowledge that God loves them more than men. :)

  675. “We’re not your mama’s polyandry.”

    We’re going to need a marketing program to bring in the donations.

    The Houses of Hiding and Lands of Refuge are gonna burn through a lot of cash.

    And none of that Aunt and Uncle Stuff. The highest the husbands can aspire to is respected status as Knights.

  676. I mean granddaughter — my granddaughter has been raised to understand her proper place in the univers — at the pinnacle of perfection. ;)

  677. Mother Priestess President TexasMom won’t like Matthews bongos.
    They’re pingy-pangy.

  678. I’m yearning for an iPad, Granny.

    Who’s holding the keys to the Storehouse?

  679. The name of the storehouse is Neiman-Marcus correct?

  680. Head Priestesshood Holder + Prophetess Texas Mom… she who is mighty and strong… has dictated that all men leaving the ranch for work should be dressed in beekeeper uniforms to protect their modesty.

  681. That’s a thing I’ve never understood. The connection between male dominance and female modesty. Makes no sense to me, I’m missing some sort of piece of the psychological puzzle. I can understand a planet of Gor with scantily clad slave girls who are constantly in heat and never have children. But I don’t get the desire to have a half dozen “wives” that are covered head to toe most of the time.

  682. Betty,
    That is because the woman is their property, and no one should have the opportunity to look at their property .. also the “property” is meant to have problems moving about due to the cumbersome garments they are placed in…

  683. Yeah, CW, I get that but the exact same guy will drive around town in the fanciest car he can find. He doesn’t put a cover over the car to take it into town. Even the FLDS love their big shiny vehicles. You would think they’d put their wives in silky dresses and makeup just to brag about what good stuff they have.

    Maybe they realize that they aren’t satisfying the women’s needs and they are concerned about the women being too tempting to some male who actually might satisfy some of those needs.

    The encumbrance thing I DO understand, thanks for making that point. Also the discomfort in the heat – have you ever noticed a connection between heat and “modesty clothing”? – it’s sort of a test of submission.

  684. That will work, Sister LadySadie.

    Who has a CEO type husband that we can soak for a run to Neiman’s?

    I’m also yearning for a Borders and Barnes and Noble binge, so we’ll have to take some brawn with us to run packages out to the stretch Hummer.

    We need to figure out something they value above all else to hold on the lands while we’re away, though, lest they get any ideas of escaping into the scary and dangerous gentile world.

    It’s all for their own good and protection, of course.

  685. What are the Marfa lights?

    Also, I went out to lunch and came back to find ya’ll wanting to buy up land in Riata.

    I was thinking we could get a really good deal on the Berry Knoll. I know the guy who has it up for sale.

  686. Twist, we can just plop them in front of the biggest screen TV available tuned to the football channel, have the frig fully stocked with beer and you don’t have to worry about them leaving the couch much less the ranch while we are away.

  687. Berry Knoll nah, Utah’s too passe for our cult, er I mean religion, not to mention too COLD.

  688. And too far from Neiman’s

  689. I also propose to the Head Priestess TexasMom that we make sure the WTF Ranch is in a tropical climate and require all husbands to run around in various stages of disrobement while on the ranch.

  690. I have a great pattern for loin cloths.

  691. Yearning for cabana boys again LS?

  692. The Marfa lights…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marfa_lights

    We can use those when we come up with the Priestesshood history and work them into our dogma.

    How do you think my faithful First Husband Jimmy Dean made it back here from the other side of the veil?

    That reminds me…Our Beloved Queen Mother TexasMom is gonna need a scribe or two to record her dictations.

  693. Annon my child, the lights of Marfa are our reminder from Heavenly Mother that the time is short. The colored orbs dance and play by night while we consecrated toil by day, reminding us by dichotomy to always yearn for WTF.

    HPPTM wanted me to remind you people that “An error doesn’t become a mistake until you refuse to correct it.” That was stated by JFK, who slept with Marilyn who was a movie star, and Riata was and is a place of movies. You need to always think about that.

    The haters have already started. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marfa_lights

  694. I love you people. I’m so proud. sniff. sniff.

  695. OK. Get ready to take back our temple!

  696. Nothing wrong with scantily clad cabana boys bringing us drinks with little umbrellas why I remember … uh …

    Well I remembered something it was only a moment ago, on the tip of my tongue or or or …

    O carp getting old sucks but at least I don’t remember some things I’d rather not

  697. Betty said : Maybe they realize that they aren’t satisfying the women’s needs and they are concerned about the women being too tempting to some male who actually might satisfy some of those needs.

    You pegged it right there.

  698. “Always yearn for WTF”

    I think that should be the inscription engraved on the Temple

  699. Ding, dong…..well before I join i just want to know do you all have a sacred scripture,”Book of MorWomen” or something I can read? What’s the ‘EndTime’ in all of this, I mean what does the man get in the Hereafter, after her? Can you join or is it only by birthright, like slavery?

  700. I think the administrator has to start a new thread for the WTF ranch

  701. Miele’s link to wiki on the Marfa lights says:
    Sightings are reported occasionally and unpredictably, perhaps ten to twenty times a year. There are no reliable reports of daytime sightings; the lights seem to be a nocturnal phenomenon only.

    Yes, that will bode well with TexasMom’s nocturnal heavenly sessions.

  702. cajIM : I would have to check the Epistle of Texas Mom to WTF, Chapter 15, beginning in verse 2, to answer you.
    Give me a few minutes.

  703. I think the administrator is too busy chortling on the floor to start a new thread. I know I would be.

  704. Once bitten asked for a count of ex pligs a while back. Obviously by my sig I am one. I still live in C. C. tho. What a trip!

  705. little ex plig kid,
    how do you stand living there ?
    you are welcome to relocate to the WTF
    Ranch if you like..

  706. lets see in the hereafter, the man gets to GO to the hearafter, they have NO planet of their own of course, but they get to stay tied to the woman’s apron strings, lol :)

  707. Oh, and they still get to take care of all the children, the dishes, the farm work, the gardens… That Im sure will keep the men busy in the hereafter, lol

  708. You guys are a HOOT!! And I love all the names for ur cult…uh church. Yeah, I’m on board as long as the women are in charge. Women always have the best answers and know what to do anyway. Sit back you guys, do ur “work”, and enjoy the ride…to heaven. ;~)

  709. “We’re not your mama’s polyandry.”
    First Church of the Holy Matriarchs of the WTF Ranch.

    LOL times a hundred! I like it, a lot.

    Verily I say unto my fellow epiphanists (epiphaners?) – er, gals who have also had the CALLING — I am not worthy to be Priestess President ….I have done wicked things.

    I have lusted in my heart while watching ‘Legends of the Fall’ and my nocturnal heavenly sessions mostly include visions of Karl Urban’s thighs. (which is only useful to me and not the Church as a whole)

    No, no…such an honor is not mine. Given the level of wit and creativity spawned by my simple post — I have no doubt that all we Priestesshood holders could lead collectively, rather than one-woman-rule.

    My offspring by my legal husband requires dinner, so I’m off to the task. But I’ll check in later. Carry on — and THANKS for the laughs!
    _____________
    *aside: just so you know where this is coming from — 3 miles south of my house is a fire station, 4 miles west, is another one.

    Apparently BOTH firehouses shop for groceries at the same central store that I do. And all I can say is THANK YOU to the employment recruiter who staffed these two facilities – because HOLY MOSES — shopping was never so enjoyable before.
    p.s. this pic is of an Austin fireman — just so you know what I’m talking about: http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/4107/austinfireman.jpg

  710. See, even little ex plig kid said HOOT.

    HOOT should be the name of the United Order that the communal community Hunks will consecrate their time, talents and labor to.

    The HOOT account will provide for the just wants and needs at the Neiman Storehouse and other sundry items such as buying the little umbrellas for the cold toddys they’ll be delivering to the High Priestesses.

    And, someone mentioned the need for a scribe for Texas Mom. I nominate LadieSadie cause she is so good at keeping lists.

  711. oh my word, texas mom, check out his hose!

  712. Dang I gotta compete with that? You know he works Chippendales Saturday nights doncha!

  713. he does ? i’m there dude

  714. Oh my, oh my another revelation, our Holy Mother has spoken to me in a nightly emmission so it is now commanded, all the “husbands” of the First Church of the Holy Matriarchs at the WTF Ranch will get training at the Chippendale School.

  715. which one? I wanna go see him!

  716. amen !

  717. WOW!! TexasMom–I’m an old lady and I enjoyed the fireman picture.

  718. now calm down ladies, this young lad is filled with sin and must be redeemed by a suitable member of our holy order

  719. Hey — quick check in – then I have to go to work :(

    Stamp said: “Dang I gotta compete with that? You know he works Chippendales Saturday nights doncha!”

    No, no Stamp – you IN if you wanna be, you’re special. (heart)

  720. Since I am not religious, and hence unsuited to being a member of this cult, er…. religion, can I be an Apostate?

  721. Holy Moly,, so they will be all MUSCLES!!! And they can’t wear shirts except in the winter, it would terrible to cover those up,, LOL :)

  722. this young man will no doubt require a holy matriarch no less than 50 yrs of age. a younger woman could not bring about his salvation and exaltation. are there any matriarchs of a suitable age volunteering at this time?

  723. Dibs on redeeming, lol

  724. ME ME,, im well over 50!!

  725. We are surely in need of our own firehouse.

    Do we need an alchemist? There’s gotta be some way to lure in some new blood.

  726. DD1, you may have him, only if you agree to take three or four more, to assist them in achieving their salvation. Thank you for your sacrifice to the cause.

  727. I wonder how many times per week Texas Mom goes grocery shopping, given the amount of male pulchritude in her area.
    Anonagain, we do not accept apostates. You must see the light of matriarchy in order to be worthy of receiving such sin filled young souls into your household.

  728. (don’t you bet the conversation among Joseph Smith’s earliest male followers sounded a lot like this…)

  729. Wait a minute us in the under 50 crowd are quite capable of bringing about that young mans salvation and exaltation and have a longer time to enjoy the fruits of our labor!

  730. You must be at least double his age in order to be able to provide appropriate guidance, Lady Sadie. We do not engage in plural marriage lightly, it is solely for the good of a man’s salvation.

  731. I’m old enough to be most of your mothers. Dammit. Do I get the best ones?

  732. Granny,
    I have a particularly nice young man in need of your ministrations. He is only 18.

  733. OK, I draw the line at under the age of 21.

  734. then its two 21 yr. olds for you, my Priestesshood holder!
    Train them up in the way of the Lord, and tell them to Keep Sweet!

  735. Should I get 3 of those 21s?

  736. Lord knows those 18s are generally so immature.

  737. 3 it is, my dear Granny Matriarch !

  738. Granny you can have 6 of the 21’s. Holy Mother has not yet revealed the magic number of husbands for entrance into the highest kingdom but I keep hearing the number 5, we will have to wait for her clear instructions.

  739. It’s because they’re male, bless their hearts.

    Not everyone can get those superior redundant XX chromosomes. They got the kind with the little broken leg, XY.

    One of the special things about XX is that it means we can always change our minds.

  740. I will make a bet that this is exactly the type of discussion that went on with Joseph Smith’s earliest followers and apologists. If they played along with him, they got the youngest, best looking mates, and as many as they wanted. If they didn’t play along with him, they got only one spouse who was older…. put money on it folks. When men write the book, this is what it looks like. God told them it was so…

  741. can i get a praise the lord and for sure pass the beef (cake that is!!!)

  742. Praise the Lord, and pass the beefcake !
    I certainly would like to arrange to come to Texas for
    a night out on the town with you matriarchs

  743. i’ll take 2 21 year olds and a 25 please.

  744. well come on down. maybe you’d like to join us for our parade to and thru the crik!!!

  745. are all the holy matriarchs going on the trip to the strip?

  746. yes, I am up for the trip. when is it ?

  747. Yes and we are bringing our beef cakes along for the show, we want the crik women to see what real sacred beef is all about!

  748. We Matriarchs will be manifesting the truth to these lost souls at the creek. Hopefully some young female souls will come to know the truth of revealed WTF Matriarchy at its finest when we arrive.

  749. Scantily clad sacred beef?

    I’m so there.

  750. Twist, I’ll second.

    CW, You never got back to cajIM. Just because we’re matriarchs, we don’t have to be rude matriarchs. This was Mother’s test and she pointed her finger at you.

    Of course you’re in cajIM. We’ll work out the doctrines later.
    After we’re done shopping. Neiman’s is having their Spring Fever preview.

  751. Whoops, sorry, Jim. Let us now review the sacred texts of our holy order regarding a man’s salvation.
    Today’s reading is from the First Book of Texas Mom to WTF, Chapter 15, beginning in verse 2.
    2 A man may be pulled beyond the veil by his matriarch’s apron strings alone. 3If he dies before his wife, he shall await her arrival in the Celestial Green Room. 4 He may not go beyond the veil on his own, he is unworthy.
    Jim, I hope this answers your question.

  752. Any suggestions on what to do if a young woman you knew, was planning on joining Flds group?.

  753. Anon : Why are they planning to join ?
    what benefit would joining hold for them ?
    I am thinking that you should consider referring them to the Shield and Refuge Ministry

  754. I am not sure. One of my daughters found certain books in her room.

  755. Like Anonagain, I was hoping to join up as an apostate. I thought the community would be more balanced with a few of those. Otherwise, how can this new holy order sue themselves? And what is a cult, er religion, without a few dissonants around to point out the wicked ways of the members?

    Will there be no fire and brimstone coming from the pulpit?

    However, since apostates won’t be allowed at the WTF then I beg you to please send me the sacred secret training sessions ASAP.

    I will study hard and become worthy of being WTF and going to WTF.

    I will become WTF.

    With my age and new found wisdom, then I’ll qualify to personally deliver the WTF training and promote the salvation for 3 18-year-olds.

    And together, we will all be WTF.

  756. Anonymous,
    Can you tell me what the books were? Are you sure they are FLDS scripture books? I might recognize the titles if they are FLDS books.

    There are many religious sects out there today and it might not be the FLDS sect’s books.

    I do like Catwhisper’s idea of contacting Doris Hansen with Shield and Refuge Ministry. She could speak with you. I will see if I can get a phone number.

    Please be aware though that Doris Hansen (although a wonderful lady) runs a ministry. She is a born again Christian and they not only help people, they also try to save their souls in the process.

    Rowena Erickson who was with Tapestry Against Polygamy also has a hotline number, although that group is no longer functioning, but I think Rowena still takes crisis calls.

    Both Doris and Rowena are from the Kingston group, but they understand polygamous philosophy.

  757. Anonymous said: “Will there be no fire and brimstone coming from the pulpit?”

    snicker….that’s what the firemen are for. :)

    *must. get.some. work.done. (Thanks again for the laughs everyone)

  758. Anonymouses, (or Anonymi?)
    Science and reason are always helpful.
    There are videos on the lack of reliability and validity of
    the Mormon scriptural texts. One has been produced by
    Doris Hanson’s ministry. It reviews the data which indicates
    that there is no archeological or DNA evidence to support the claims of the Book of Mormon. This may appeal to the young woman on a rational level.

  759. We are Jewish Orthodox, and thought this girl was too. She is in her early 20’s. The book was History of Priesthood Succession in the dispensation of the fullness of times, apparently she also has some other books of speeches of somebody Jeffs, but I am not 100% certain, as books seem to have disappeared. I do not know anything about this group so just had a look through google. I am curious though how on earth she got these books, we have known here for a few years, maybe she was involved with them before we met her? I can’t physically stop her from doing anything as she is not our daughter and her parents abandoned her a while back.

  760. Anonymous 11:29 :
    is there a Chabad Lubavitch Hasidic group near you ?
    if the young lady in question is of the Jewish faith,
    they might be willing to meet her and discuss the issue
    with her at length. In the meanwhile, invite her to stay
    with you on Shabbos, involve her in mitzvot, etc.

  761. She lives in our home, although she will be leaving soon. We live in a community of Orthodox Jews, but we are not Chabad. She is a deeply religous person and is young, pretty, and a very nice girl, was married at age 20 in very abusive marriage which we worked hard to get her out of, and finally did 8 months ago so I am not quite sure what is going on with her.

  762. Gee, Seems sorta like a veiled threat if the Priestess never arrives I guess it’s all to no avail? You didn’t answer about the Hereafter, after her? If I ‘take the veil’ would I turn into a nun?

  763. cajIM,
    I must rest now as every good Priestesshood holder must.
    I will study our holy texts and answer on the morrow.
    Keep Sweet

    Anonymous 11:41, try to find a charismatic Jewish leader near you so that she can speak with that rabbi. Surely there is someone near you.
    Involve her in Shabbos, benching licht, kiddush, Torah, oy vey, I could go on… but alas, I am only a shiksa….
    Seriously, consider the videos that JonDana posted a link for on a previous string…
    Good night….

  764. Beekeeper outfits with bee veils, heehee

  765. Anonymous,
    The name of the book you cite sounds very familiar; it could be an FLDS title or an old LeBaron title and it could even be by Ogden Kraut or the Allred group. It could date back even further to the very early days of the Mormon Fundies Prieshtood Council of 7 during the 30’s and 40’s and have been written by Lorin Woolley or Joseph Musser.

    I did not find the exact title, but I found ones that are very close.

    Most of the current sects pull from these “ancient” works and co-mingle the old ideas into the current teachings on the priesthood succession in Fundamentalist Mormon polygamy.

    Regardless, I have a strong gut feeling that this girl is indeed reading religious doctrine provided to her by people currently involved in some type of Mormon polygamous sect and it could be the FLDS,since you mentioned the name “Jeffs”.

    The FLDS had such a book called “History of Priesthood Succession” by Rulon Jeffs; from the “Mormon Focus” magazine, 2003
    If you could provide more info on when and who published them,that would narrow it down a lot. But your comment mentioning the name Jeffs is quite revealing.

    Yet the FLDS Jeffs group hasn’t recruited outsiders into their sect for a couple of decades. That doesn’t mean that they haven’t started again, but it makes me think more that someone splintered off from the Jeffs group could be behind her having these books about mormon polygamy.

    A date and publisher would certainly narrow down the distribution choices. And any additional names would help, too. Such as Orson William (Will) Black would really raise red flags!

    In the meantime, I would recommend that you contact someone who can help answer your questions and concerns.

    Rowenna Erickson can be reached at 801-259-5200 and Doris Hansen with Shield and Refuge Ministry can be reached toll free at 877–425-9993.

    You can absolutely trust both of these ladies.

    Please keep us posted because we care. And, if you don’t find the answers you need, please contact us again.

    If you feel comfortable disclosing you geographic area,that could be a huge help,too.

  766. Anonymous, I have to go to bed now because I am taking my mother for surgery EARLY in the morning.

    Good luck and God bless your efforts to help this young lady.

    I will check back on this blog tomorrow night looking for progress and good news from you.

  767. Im sure one was printed by Warren Jeffs if that makes sense. Could it be she has a “boyfriend” in this group giving her such books? She is highly secretive, quiet, and very naive, more like a 16 year old in her thinking and maturity level. I would think she is easily brainwashed.

  768. Anonymous with 20 year old.
    Here is a link to an interesting video about the Bible and Mormonism.

    http://mormonchallenge.com/thebiblevs.html

    I suspect she has FLDS ties and coming out of a bad marriage searching for “truth”.

    I suspect she is being tempted back into the group, by a parent, sibling or friend who is active FLDS. Not a good sign.

    Doris Hansen is an excellent choice and she will treat the girl with kid gloves and help your family guide her.

  769. Hmmm, maybe when someone buys the land for WTF Ranch they can say they’re starting a cougar preserve.

  770. Good one Ron!

  771. We need a restaurant like the folks from Centennial Park have.

    The Merry Men Steakhouse.

    We might even be able to use it as a recruiting, er…missionary, tool as we’ll have nothing but the newest toys in outdoor grills for the cooks.

    And yes, Sister Sadie, tights on the wait staff.

    We also need a blog.

    “What’s Your Beef?”

  772. We could call the restaurant HOOTers.

    Hey, Miele, are ya up to someone else suing us?

  773. Holy Mother has revealed that the masses will come to recognize that the First Church of the Holy Matriarchs at the WTF Ranch is the one true cult, er oops I mean religion as she designed the Priestesses for this most holy purpose. As evidenced by the Matriarch ability to have a multitude of enlightening revelations during our numerous daily heavenly sessions. The Priestesses are able to ensure that their multiple husbands never feel neglected as according Holy Mothers divine plan.

    In this grand design we may need to have training outposts for the up and coming matriarchs that are striving to become Priestesses, Holy Mother has revealed that this striving must involve tithing, much tithing to her chosen Priestesses as a test to the striving to see if they are worthy of Priestess status.

  774. I’ve always liked men in skirts. Especially if they’re playing bagpipes. Men in little aprons isn’t quite as … stirring.

  775. I can only hope to be found worthy, Prophetess Lady Sadie

  776. CW you are one of the original Prophetesses, there is no one woman rule in Holy Mothers Grand Divine Plan for the First Church of the Holy Matriarchs at the WTF Ranch.

  777. If I am remembering correctly so far the Prophetesses/Priestesses of the First Church of the Holy Matriarchs at the WTF Ranch are our founder the Most Holy High Prophetess TexasMom, Prophetess TexasTwist, Prophetess Catwhisperer, Our Most Matronly Prophetess GrannyToad, Prophetess Miele, various Prophetesses Anonymous, Prophetess Keeping Sweet, Prophetess ProudTexan, Prophetess Deputydog1, Priestess Anonagain has gone from wannabe Apostate to Priestess status she is stiving for Prophetess status.

    We are on a mission to recruit the most perfect specimens of manhood for our multiple husbands. So far our founder the Most Holy High Prophetess TexasMom is supplying the scantily clad Texas Firemen, and Stamp and caljim are coming on board.

  778. Oops and of course myself Prophetess LadySadie

  779. All Prophetesses are capable of receiving “revelations”, but the shared revelations are the most Holy and must be fulfilled.

  780. And in case anyone can’t tell having a very slow work day here which actually means I have done my job so well that everything is working perfectly.

  781. There are videos on the lack of reliability and validity of
    the Mormon scriptural texts. One has been produced by
    Doris Hanson’s ministry. It reviews the data which indicates
    that there is no archeological or DNA evidence to support the claims of the Book of Mormon. This may appeal to the young woman on a rational level.
    ………………….

    It certainly doesn’t appeal to millions of Mormons.

    Even if you don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, there is historical evidence that he did exist, and of course there is plenty of proof that the Romans ruled over Jerusalem 2000 years ago.

    I heard there are horses mentioned in the Book of Mormon – there were no horses in North America until the Spanish imported them in the 16th century.

  782. Ron: Hmmm, maybe when someone buys the land for WTF Ranch they can say they’re starting a cougar preserve.
    …………….

    LOL

  783. Don’t forget my faithful First Husband, Jimmy Dean.

    I’m openly recruiting husbands with various construction skills.

    I’m consecrating my farm in the middle of nowhere to the First Church of the Holy Matriarch and we’re building multiple houses of hiding, er, hunting lodges.

    I have immediate openings for an exterior painting crew and some landscapers. Concrete and carpentry skills are a plus.

  784. maybe we need a new string ?
    I think there are over 700 responses on this one…

  785. I researched Matriarchal Orders of the HotPants songs, and this one showed up. A #1.

    Maybe this could be the Chorus sung to the new men converted into the WTF Cougar Ranch.

    The video looks like it was filmed inside of the WTF ranch too, complete with the ladies, a couple chippendale guys, a liquor cabinet and a cage. hmmmm…….. PARTAY!

  786. Hilarious! WTF!?!?

    Please see Discussion #25. If you want to continue plans for the WTF ranch, lets keep it on this thread please!

    – ADMIN

  787. Dont forget to build a glistening white temple.

  788. lepk, our most holy temple is pink, and it’s already in Marfa and completed. See here:

    HPPTM need only start a small fire in it and our avenging angels will know what to do.

  789. truly it is a structure worthy of our holy order.

  790. Bishopette, ladysadie my first celestial husband is thus named Charles Hardin Holley. But I shall call him Buddy.

    Yesterday I was our holy version of Rodney Parker, since I know nothing of the law.

    Twist, I will sue Hooter’s today. Even before I file, I shall answer them nothing. The above record is mine. Anonymous is the name I use with man’s courts. No unworthy Hooter girl will defile the grounds of WTF and try our gentlemen. Mother pointed her finger at me. Besides being scantily clad, they throw Buffalo wings at our gentlemen.

    When man’s court rewards us, we’d best look for a condo, er place of refuge on South Padre Island. Priestess ladysadie has already trained the cabana boys.

  791. I wonder if Malicia is envious of our style of fantasy fiction.

  792. who is that ? and welcome to our cult, where have you been, often late?

  793. Oh. Ah. Em. Keepin’ warm.

    Malicia = 40and

  794. Please join us in singing one of our favorite hymns:

    Smack Dab in the Middle

    Pick me a town
    In any clime
    Where people like
    A rockin time
    And stay awake
    Both day and night
    Till everybody’s feelin good an’ right
    Then throw me
    (Smack dab in the middle)
    I wanna be
    (Smack dab in the middle)

    Ahhhhh, smack dab in the middle, girls, now
    So I can rock and roll to satisfy my soul

    Ten Cadillacs
    A diamond mill
    Ten thousand clothes
    To dress to kill
    A ten room house
    Some Bar B Q
    And fifty firemen not over twenty-two
    Then throw me
    (Smack dab in the middle)
    Oh, I wanna be
    (Smack dab in the middle)
    Ahhhhh, now girls you can see why I wanna be smack dab in the middle now
    So I can rock and roll to satisfy my soul

    One hundred beds
    Just for us girls
    A street that’s paved
    With natural pearls
    A wagon load
    Of bonds and stocks
    Then open up the door at Fort Knox
    Then throw me
    (Smack dab in the middle)
    I wanna be
    (Smack dab in the middle)
    Ahhhhh, now listen girls throw me smack dab in the middle right now
    So WTF can rock and roll to satisfy our souls
    That’s all right!
    (bridge)

    A lot of bread and gangs of meat
    Oodles of butter and somethin sweet
    Gallons of coffee to wash it down
    Bicarbonated soda by the pound
    Then throw me
    (Smack dab in the middle)
    I picture it
    (Smack dab in the middle)
    Ahhhhh, throw me now, smack dab in the middle right now
    So I can rock and roll to satisfy my soul
    Alright!

    Written and performed by the late, great Mr. Ray Charles.

    ps. If that RICO feller is around and could post it, here it is on youtube

  795. Wow. I posted it. I really am a priestess!

  796. if Malicia doesn’t like it, she is a religious bigot, obviously.

  797. Do we get Pink Caddy’s to??? :)

  798. I don’t see why not.

  799. I’d better read that over, I coulda swore it said smack Deb in o never mind

  800. and since the rawnch is in marfa, Im buying a pink pair of cowboy boots, to keep the rattle snakes from bitin me.

  801. Our holy mother said we could get these for our just wants.

    http://www.zappos.com/n/p/p/7139901/c/14278.html

    Should we wear them like a uniform, or on alternate days so we’re not so matchy-matchy?

  802. Yes, the Texans among us might covet such objects.

  803. i’d prefer ropers instead of pointy toe boots!!!

  804. also, i want a hot pink hummer

  805. Miele said: “Twist, I will sue Hooter’s today. Even before I file, I shall answer them nothing.”

    whahahahaHAHAHA! (I actually DID laugh out loud) heehee, that made my day.

    Well darn, fellow Prietesshood holders, I have a HUGE project that I have to work on tonight — so I can’t play, but I do want to say how tickled I am that my polyamory-confession has lead to such an outpouring of support. :)

    **A Special BIG THANK YOU — to FLDS Admin. — for allowing us to run rampant. I’m well aware that the forum is based on deadly serious issues and yet I’m grateful that SATIRE is allowed. again, Thanks.

    Have fun — If I’m sufficiently industrious tonight, maybe I can have a few nocturnal revelations for tomorrow. cheers!

  806. Miele,, YES!!! those are BEAUTIFUL!!!!!! Ill take TWO pair , one for ever day and one for going to sunday meetin!!!! :)

  807. nocturnal emissions must be recorded by a proper scribe. cabana boys will work wonderfully well for this task.

  808. Have a restful night mother. We will await your revelations. (and thanks ADM.)

    Here’s you go PT:

    http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/roper-ostrich-print-pull-on-boots-pink.aspx?a=598367

    CW, you’re gonna have to get the spirit sistah. Next you’ll want a NY land of refuge where you can wear Prada heels. Think snakes.

    Throw on yer boots or start a splinter group!

  809. those work perfectly miele – thank you ever so much for finding me appropriate footwear for our WTF lands.

    i’ve got a couple of cabana boys working on their conversion confessions as we speak.

  810. I wear birkenstocks a lot. I could get bit on a toe by a rattlesnake sunnin itself.

  811. These are more my style.

    http://www.amazon.com/Lucchese-Classics-Kangaroo-Cowboy-Womens/dp/B002F0I8JS

  812. Whose turn is it tomorrow to pony up the pitchers of margaritas and cabana boys to keep ‘em coming? I like mine with a little ice, limed and salted rim and a little bit of real limon.

  813. I am an UGGS type matriarch at heart. I must learn the Texican ways

  814. Betty, rethink those pointed toes, or I see hammertoe surgery in your future.

  815. Betty, those look exactly like my Dan Post’s. I’ve been wanting them in Lucchese for a long time. Great minds.

    Sistah CW. Those pointy toes move along the things you want moved along, and discourage the things you don’t. They can make a pretty compelling argument. Lucchese will custom make them for your foot, just run up to El Paso and talk to them.

    Granny, I need to sue us a couple more times tomorrow. But I’ve got a cooler, a Margaritaville machine, a salt rimmer and an inverter for the truck. Squeezing the limon while drivings might be a problem. I’ll write a confession to MotherTexas and see if she’ll guide me.

  816. surely such pointy toed, constrictive and deformity – producing foot gear should be reserved for men, whose sole responsibility on this earth is to look attractive to us and serve us ?

  817. Texastwist:

    This is very belated, and you may now know what you wanted, but I just found this site. I am a close friend of Robert Crossfield and know a lot about him. He only has one daughter that married into the FLDS. He calls her Gail.

    If you are interested in what happened between the Lafferys and the School of the Prophets you can read this:

    http://www.2bc.info/pdf/Laffertys.pdf

    More links from this same site are here:

    http://www.2bc.info/pdf/2BClinks.pdf

    Richard

  818. I have found in my observations of human beings in my life, that when someone joins a group or has a sudden conversion and throws themselves into that group’s activities with extreme passion and sacrifice after very little time for thought and deliberation, that their reasons for joining are ALWAYS suspect and in the long run, no good will come of it.

  819. This is really attention-grabbing, You’re an overly professional blogger. I have joined your rss feed and look forward to in the hunt for more of your magnificent post. Also, I have shared your web site in my social networks

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